9: “The Worth of Souls Is Great” (Doctrine and Covenants 18–19)

Segment 1:

Title of Section 18: Name of Jesus Christ; Worth of Souls

5 Wherefore, if you shall build up my ^achurch, upon the foundation of my gospel and my ^brock, the ^cgates of hell shall not prevail against you.

• My gospel = Faith in Jesus Christ; Repentance; Baptism; Gift of the Holy Ghost (see Articles of Faith 1:4). 
• Rock = Jesus Christ and revelation

6 Behold, the ^aworld is ^bripening in iniquity; and it must needs be that the children of men are stirred up unto repentance, both the ^cGentiles and also the house of Israel (Doctrine and Covenants 18:5–6).

Talk: Elder Neal A. Maxwell, "Hope Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ"

Link: Janice Kapp Perry, "How Great Shall Be Your Joy"

Segment 2:

Quote: "If you take being a father seriously, you'll know that you're not big enough for the job, not by yourself...Being a father will put you on your knees if nothing else ever did" (Elisabeth Elliot).

10 Remember the ^aworth of ^bsouls is great in the sight of God; (Doctrine and Covenants 18:10).

• The Hebrew word for great is gadol, a word that used to describe something great in magnitude. 

Quote: "It is significant that of all the titles of respect and honor and admiration that are given to God, He has asked us to address Him as Father (A Message from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, "Father, Consider Your Ways," ChurchofJesusChrist.org).

Quote: "Of the many magnificent purposes served in the life and ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ, one great aspect of that mission often goes uncelebrated… It is the grand truth that in all that Jesus came to say and do, including and especially in His atoning suffering and sacrifice, He was showing us who and what God our Eternal Father is like, how completely devoted He is to His children in every age and nation. In word and in deed Jesus was trying to reveal and make personal to us the true nature of His Father, our Father in Heaven" (Elder Jeffrey R. Holland, "The Grandeur of God," October 2003 general conference).

Segment 3:

13 And how great is his ^ajoy in the ^bsoul that ^crepenteth!

14 Wherefore, you are called to ^acry repentance unto this people.

15 And if it so be that you should labor all your days in crying repentance unto this people, and bring, save it be one ^asoul unto me, how great shall be your joy with him in the kingdom of my Father! (Doctrine and Covenants 18:13–15).

16 And now, if your joy will be great with one soul that you have brought unto me into the ^akingdom of my Father, how great will be your ^bjoy if you should bring many ^csouls unto me! (Doctrine and Covenants 18:16).

• Cross reference:Luke 22:31–32 

How can we bring souls to Christ?

23 Behold, Jesus Christ is the ^aname which is given of the Father, and there is none other name given whereby man can be ^bsaved;

24 Wherefore, all men must take upon them the ^aname which is given of the Father, for in that name shall they be called at the last day; (Doctrine and Covenants 18:22–23).

"Love God and Love People" by Danny Gokey, ft. Michael W. Smith

Segment 4:

Title of Section 19: Eternal and Endless punishment; Atonement of Jesus Christ

Background of section 19:

"During the summer of 1829, after the translation of the Book of Mormon was completed, Egbert B. Grandin, owner of the Wayne County Sentinel in Palmyra, New York, agreed to print five thousand copies of the book for three thousand dollars. On 25 August 1829, Martin Harris, who had repented of his previous sins and had subsequently received a vision of the angel and the plates to become one of the Three Witnesses of the Book of Mormon, put up 240 acres of his Palmyra farm as collateral to guarantee payment of the three thousand dollars. If the books sold, the proceeds would redeem Martin's note, but if they did not sell, portions of Martin's acreage would be sold at public auction until the debt to Grandin was satisfied.

"Opposition to the Book of Mormon was intense even before its publication. During the winter of 1830, a man named Abner Cole had somehow gained access to the printer's copy of the manuscript and attempted to publish parts of it as installments in his newspaper, the Reflector, under the pseudonym of O. Dogberry; the first installment was printed on 2 January 1830. The Reflector was also printed in Palmyra on E. B. Grandin's press. Cole apparently hoped to profit from his literary theft and at the same time preempt sales of the real Book of Mormon when it appeared, but Joseph was able to stop this infringement of copyright by threatening legal action.1 Then in March 1830, a large number of citizens in the Palmyra area held a mass meeting in opposition to the forthcoming book and mutually agreed to boycott it when released. These same citizens also applied pressure to Grandin, who, fearing the Smiths might not make good their debt if the boycott proved successful, stopped the printing.

"When Martin Harris learned of the planned boycott, being aware he would lose his farm if the book didn't sell, he went to Joseph in Manchester, New York, and demanded a revelation from the Lord" (Stephen E. Robinson, H. Dean Garrett, A Commentary on the Doctrine and Covenants, Vol. 1, "Doctrine and Covenants 19," Deseret Book).

Quote: "Three thousand dollars is a generous loan in any era. That amount in 1830 would be equal to $67,000 today. By some estimates, however, if you compare Martin’s wealth to the local economy at that time, his gift would be worth more than $1.6 million today" ("Martin Harris, the Great Benefactor," ChurchofJesusChrist.org ).

1 I am ^aAlpha and Omega, ^bChrist the Lord; yea, even I am he, the beginning and the end, the Redeemer of the ^cworld (Doctrine and Covenants 19:1).

• Alpha and Omega = The beginning and the end; the creation and the judgement (Stephen E. Robinson, H. Dean Garrett, A Commentary on the Doctrine and Covenants, Vol. 1, "Doctrine and Covenants 19," Deseret Book).
• Redeemer = The word "redeem" comes from a Latin word meaning to buy back (Stephen E. Robinson, H. Dean Garrett, A Commentary on the Doctrine and Covenants, Vol. 1, "Doctrine and Covenants 19," Deseret Book).

6 Nevertheless, it is ^anot written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written ^bendless ^ctorment.

7 Again, it is written ^aeternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.

• Cross references: Moses 1:3; Moses 7:35

3 And God spake unto Moses, saying: Behold, I am the Lord God ^aAlmighty, and ^bEndless is my ^cname; for I am without beginning of days or end of years; and is not this endless? (Moses 1:3).

35 Behold, I am God; ^aMan of Holiness is my name; Man of Counsel is my name; and Endless and Eternal is my ^bname, also (Moses 7:35).

• Endless torment = God's torment
• Eternal damnation = God's damnation 

Quote: "True, we read of everlasting punishment, unending suffering, eternal damnation. That is a direful expression; but in his mercy the Lord has made plain what those words mean. 'Eternal punishment,' he says, is God's punishment, for he is eternal;" (Elder James E. Talmage, Conference Report, Apr. 1930, 97).

Quote: “Our heavenly Father is more liberal in His views, and boundless in His mercies and blessings, than we are ready to believe or receive. … God does not look on sin with [the least degree of] allowance, but … the nearer we get to our heavenly Father, the more we are disposed to look with compassion on perishing souls; we feel that we want to take them upon our shoulders, and cast their sins behind our backs" (Elder Jeffrey R. Holland, "The Grandeur of God," October 2003 general conference).

Segment 5:

13 Wherefore, I command you to repent, and keep the ^acommandments which you have received by the hand of my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., in my name; (Doctrine and Covenants 19:13).

The Savior Describing the Atonement 

15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I ^asmite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your ^bsufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

16 For behold, I, God, have ^asuffered these things for all, that they ^bmight not suffer if they would ^crepent;

17 But if they would not repent they must ^asuffer even as I;

18 Which ^asuffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might ^bnot drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and ^afinished my preparations unto the children of men.

20 Wherefore, I command you again to repent, lest I ^ahumble you with my almighty power; and that you ^bconfess your sins, lest you suffer these ^cpunishments of which I have spoken, of which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree you have ^dtasted at the time I withdrew my Spirit (Doctrine and Covenants 19:15–20).

• "What mind of man can fathom the significance of that awful cry? It seems, that in addition to the fearful suffering incident to crucifixion, the agony of Gethsemane had recurred, intensified beyond human power to endure. In that bitterest hour the dying Christ was alone, alone in most terrible reality. That the supreme sacrifice of the Son might be consummated in all its fulness, the Father seems to have withdrawn the support of His immediate Presence, leaving to the Savior of men the glory of complete victory over the forces of sin and death" (Elder James E. Talmage, Jesus the Christ, p 661). 

Quote: "It is interesting to note that, other than in the book of Job and a few other places, there are very few scriptural references to physical or mortal pain. The pain most frequently spoken of in the scriptures is the pain and anguish of the Lord and His prophets for the disobedient souls" (Elder Robert D. Hales, "Healing Soul and Body," October 1998 general conference).

Quote: "His infinite atonement affected every age, every dispensation, and every person (see 2 Nephi 9:7; 25:16). Hence the appropriate symbolism of His bleeding at each and every pore—not just some" (Elder Neal A. Maxwell, "'Answer Me,'" October 1988 general conference).

Quote: “We will end up either choosing Christ’s manner of living or His manner of suffering! It is either ‘suffer even as I’ (D&C 19:16–17), or overcome ‘even as [He] … overcame (Revelation 3:21)” (Elder Neal A. Maxwell, “'Overcome … Even As I Also Overcame,'” Ensign, May 1987, 72).

23 ^aLearn of me, and listen to my words; ^bwalk in the ^cmeekness of my Spirit, and you shall have ^dpeace in me.

24 I am Jesus Christ; I ^acame by the ^bwill of the Father, and I do his will. (Doctrine and Covenants 19:23–24).

Segment 6:

37 And ^aspeak freely to all; yea, preach, exhort, declare the ^btruth, even with a loud voice, with a sound of rejoicing, crying—Hosanna, hosanna, blessed be the name of the Lord God!

• Hebrew: Hosanna = Jesus saves or save now
• Preach: Elder Uchtdorf's quoting Saint Francis of Assisi in his October 2011 general conference talk "Waiting on the Road to Damascus": "“Preach the gospel at all times and if necessary, use words" 
• Exhort: To cheer (see Webster's 1828 Dictionary) 

38 ^aPray always, and I will ^bpour out my Spirit upon you, and great shall be your blessing—yea, even more than if you should obtain ^ctreasures of earth and corruptibleness to the extent thereof.

39 Behold, canst thou read this without ^arejoicing and lifting up thy heart for ^bgladness?

40 Or canst thou run about longer as a ^ablind guide?

• Cross reference: Helaman 13:29

41 Or canst thou be ^ahumble and meek, and conduct thyself wisely before me? Yea, ^bcome unto me thy Savior. Amen (Doctrine and Covenants 19:37–41).

Quote: “God is your father. He loves you. He and your mother in heaven value you beyond any measure … You are unique. One of a kind, made of the eternal intelligence which gives you claim upon eternal life. Let there be no question in your mind about your value as an individual. The whole intent of the gospel plan is to provide an opportunity for each of you to reach your fullest potential, which is eternal progression and the possibility of godhood” (President Spencer W. Kimball, “Privileges and Responsibilities of Sisters,” October 1978 general Conference).

0:00:00.8 Tammy Uzelac Hall: So if you happen to be at a place in your life where you are thinking, "You know what, I probably need to repent," well, then this lesson is totally for you. Now, if you're thinking, "I'm pretty good actually right now, I don't really think I need... I'm Okay, I'm doing good," then this lesson is definitely for you. Am I right, guys?

0:00:20.2 Abe: Definitely.

0:00:22.0 TH: I had to invite Tyler and Abe on the hook because Doctrine and Covenants chapters 18 through 19 are unique, in that nowhere else in all scripture is the atonement of Jesus Christ so vividly described and the need for repentance emphasized with more power and directness than in these two chapters. And so with that, welcome to The Sunday on Monday Study Group. This is a Deseret Bookshelf PLUS+ original brought to you by LDS Living, where we take a Come, Follow Me lesson for the week, and we really dig into those scriptures together. I'm your host, Tammy Uzelac Hall. Now, if you're new to our study group, we just wanna make sure that you know how to use this podcast, so follow the link in our description and it will explain how you can best use this podcast to enhance your Come, Follow Me study.

0:01:04.1 TH: Just like our friend, Shelley and Brett, right? Who are studying with us and enjoying the podcast, so I hope you guys enjoy this one. Now, here's my favorite thing about this podcast is each week we're joined by two of my friends, and you got to hear their voices at the very beginning, so I'm just gonna introduce them to you. We have Abe Mills and Tyler Collet. Hi guys.

0:01:21.0 Tyler Collet: Hey Tammy.

0:01:22.7 Abe Mills: Hi Tammy.

0:01:23.8 TH: Well, I just love you both so much. You guys are regulars, you've been on before. The three of us know each other 'cause we grew up together in St. Louis, when we were teenagers, we all lived there together...

0:01:31.2 AM: Good times. Good times.

0:01:33.2 TH: We're a little crazy...

0:01:35.5 AM: [chuckle] A little that's... Yeah.

0:01:35.8 TH: Out there on the dance floor. Stake dances.

0:01:39.8 AM: We were more than a little crazy, but yeah.

[laughter]

0:01:42.5 TH: And here we are now, we're all grown up and adults and we're still friends, which I love. Alright, anything else you guys wanna say? Any good stories you got about each other? Anything?

[laughter]

0:01:53.3 AM: No, no.

0:01:58.0 TH: Oh geez, you guys. Okay, well, Tyler is married to my sister. And my sister knows Abe, and then there you go. There's the connection.

0:02:06.4 AM: Yes.

0:02:07.3 TH: Alright, well, if you guys wanna know more information about our study group participants, you can view pictures of them and read their bios at ldsliving.com/sundayonmonday. Alright, guys, how are you feeling about these two chapters, you ready to take this on?

0:02:20.1 AM: Yeah, I think so. I mean, it's always those things that need to be talked about. I'm sure it'll feel really therapeutic when it's all done.

0:02:26.1 TC: You know Tammy I like how you mentioned in the opening that with my team especially, how this is like the most descriptive thing we have for the atonement. I find it interesting that it's the Lord himself describing it himself, which we don't have that, we have other accounts, but not his direct account, in that we do. I think it makes it more real.

0:02:53.4 TH: Oh, absolutely Tyler. I mean we haven't even started and I'm already teary and I need a nap. [chuckle] It's that emotional. I'm exhausted. Well, first, before we even start, I just have to start out by giving a huge thank you to Martin Harris because I had this realization that he's kind of the Corianton of the Doctrine and Covenants. You guys remember Corianton? He's Alma's son whose sins get exposed, and we learn all about them. I kind of feel like that with Martin Harris, so I just wanna say thank you collectively, thank you, Martin Harris, and I look forward to the day when I can shake your hand. Because Martin Harris example has served to expose the human or the natural man in all of us, and for that, I give such great thanks.

0:03:33.0 AM: I think he's kinda like that every man, he's kind of like... Every person thinks... I think we're a lot like Martin Harris, even though I don't think anybody would put themselves with Martin Harris, but I think that's where we're most of us actually are, if that makes sense.

0:03:46.0 TH: Oh it totally does. I think you're absolutely right. That's a great point, Abe. Thank you. Alright, everybody, for those of you who are listening, I hope you're excited 'cause we are and we're nervous. So grab your scriptures and let's dig in. Alright, you two, have either of you ever been in a natural disaster, like an earthquake or tornado or hurricane, anything like that?

0:04:05.9 AM: Yeah, definitely. I live in Florida, so hurricanes come here all the time, and the great thing about hurricanes is that they take forever to get here, by the time they get here, you're like, "Alright, come on, already, you know," but growing up in Missouri though, and you know, you guys know this, there's tornados.

0:04:21.9 TH: And tornadoes on the daily.

0:04:23.7 AM: Oh yeah.

0:04:23.7 TH: I remember that. Oh my gosh.

0:04:26.9 AM: Oh yeah, it's crazy.

0:04:27.0 TC: Absolutely. And you got moments to prepare for it, you can look at the sky as an indicator, but as soon as those sirens go off, that's when you know that things are getting real.

0:04:36.8 TH: Tyler, when you said the sirens of the tornado, it made me laugh because when my family moved to Missouri, we moved in, within two days of moving in, the sirens went off and we had just moved from Utah, so we did not know what... Like, "What in the world!" All we knew someone said, "When you hear a siren, it's a tornado," and my mom was like, "Get in the basement!" I mean she was screaming, "A tornado is coming!" I mean we've never run faster in our life, all of us ran down in the basement, huddled together, shaking, thinking we're gonna die of a tornado, and nothing really came by our way, and the next day at school, I told everybody, I was like, "We got in the basement," and they just laughed, they're like... "Yeah, the sirens don't really... " It's one of my favorite story. She's just like, "Oh my gosh." Anyway, but I want you to think of these natural disasters 'cause we ran into the basement, so my question is to you, how important was a foundation of your home in these natural disasters?

0:05:30.4 AM: Well, thinking about hurricanes over here, the last couple of hurricanes, there's been a lot of homes and a lot of roads and things like that that have been taken out because of the hurricanes kind of brushing the coast, because of that now there are kind of new standards, new codes, new building codes in terms of pilings that have to be driven deeply into the ground and have to be so close together, and if you wanna build a house so close to the water, you actually have to have all of these things in place in order to make it so that it's secure for a storm, the roads, they like put these walls deep, deep, deep into the ground and could they have done that while before the hurricane? Probably, but sometimes it takes that hurricane in order to actually get us to kinda go, "Okay, we gotta dig deep on this one."

0:06:16.0 TH: Oooh, Abe, I love everything you just said. Everybody take the imagery that Abe just gave us, like could they have put the wall in first? Sometimes it takes a hurricane. I want us to apply this idea of foundations and everything Abe just said to Doctrine and Covenant section 18, verse 5. Alright, so let's go ahead and label section 18. The title for section 18 is called Name of Jesus Christ; Worth of Souls. Now, I have to give a little side note here, so I heard these titles, I said this earlier, but I heard these titles from my mission president, who then became my BYU religion professor, his name is Randy Bott, who I adore, and he gave us these titles to memorize, but what I didn't know is that these titles actually come from an older book on the Doctrine and Covenants written by Leaun G. Otten and C. Max Caldwell. They have two volumes, it's called Sacred Treasures of the Doctrine and Covenants, where they've labeled all of these sections. So it's so cool. So thank you to Kelly who pointed this out. It was such a cool message to receive and I loved finding the actual source for this, and it's kind of cool 'cause we have this amazing community of listeners that help me, so thank you so much.

0:07:18.3 TH: Now, if you wanna see all of the section labels, the lessons and more, you guys, this is so cool. We now have a beautiful lesson reference page in our show notes at ldsliving.com/sundayonmonday. So go and check it out, it's pretty cool. Okay, now let's get back to Doctrine and Covenant section 18. Let's look at verse 5 because it's so powerful. So the church is about to be organized in section 20, which we're gonna study next week, but before we get to that, we have section 18, and verse 5 is so powerful. Abe, will you read verse 5.

0:07:49.2 AM: Wherefore, if you shall build up my church, upon the foundation of my gospel and my rock, the gates of hell shall not prevail against you.

0:07:56.5 TH: Thank you. Okay, let's mark two things in that first. Let's mark my gospel and my rock. Now, my gospel is article faith, number four, it's faith, repentance, baptism and gift of the Holy Ghost, and then my rock, which in scripture can be two things. This is pretty cool. It can refer to Christ and it can also refer to Revelation, and so I love how there's a dual meaning here in this word and how important that is, and now apply that to what Abe just said. Oh, I think that's so powerful.

0:08:24.0 AM: You know, it's interesting too. If you look at that, it says, the gates of hell shall not prevail against you. A lot of times, we feel like if we build it upright, then we won't even see the gates of hell, but I mean clearly, we're gonna see the gates of hell, it's just that it won't prevail against us, same thing is if you build up this great house, and you build up the roads in the right way, it's not that you won't see the hurricane, the hurricane will come. It's just you'll be able to withstand it better.

0:08:47.6 TC: And that's the primary song, the old...

0:08:51.4 TH: The wise man?

0:08:52.2 TC: Wise man built his house upon the sand...

0:08:53.4 AM: That's right.

0:08:53.9 TC: The rains came down, but I'm thinking about it just a little step further, how easy is it for us to build on the sand. It's less work, a lazier way, basically, more or less, whereas building it on the rock, the stone, that takes work. It takes effort to do, but on the primary song, we learn that when the rains come down and the floods came up, the house stayed there.

0:09:23.2 TH: Tyler, I love that you said that, it's perfect for verse 6, because we could take the easy road 100%, but you have to be willing to build. I mean that's an active word. And building is hard. I haven't really built much, but for one summer, I did hang drywall with my cousin, hardest labor I've ever done in my life, and so building is hard. I love how it's saying why, look at, re-read verse 6 for us Tyler.

0:09:47.1 TC: Behold, the world is ripening in iniquity; and it must needs be that the children of men are stirred up unto repentance, both the Gentiles and also the house of Israel.

0:09:57.7 TH: So what does that verse telling us about being willing to do the hard work.

0:10:01.6 TC: The world is ripe in inequity, it could be plucked at any moment, I guess.

0:10:08.1 TH: Do you see that today?

0:10:09.7 TC: Absolutely. Social media, television, in homes, out of homes. Absolutely.

0:10:16.5 AM: And I get out of this that the things that are happening are the things that we need. It says we must need to be stirred up, so... What does that mean? To be stirred up, it's like, well, you start seeing things happen and stuff starts getting to you where you say, "Okay, I need to start making some changes," so I think it's interesting in life it's as much as we try to avoid all the stuff that makes us hurt and makes us sweat and makes us do things, that right there is the best thing for us.

0:10:46.2 TC: I think that the best in force Abe, but I'm gonna add on to that, but I was reading some conference talks in regards to today's lesson, and going along with that read, I think it was Neal Maxwell, he said that not only will these happen, but they're for our benefit and growth from this. I think spiritually, maybe physically, but definitely spiritually.

0:11:14.4 TH: Yeah, def... I agree. For sure, for sure. Well, it's so cool because he gives us this instruction verses 5 and 6, and then throughout the rest of section 18, he's going to teach us all the different parts of the foundation that need to be built or strengthened... I'm not gonna tell you what they are, I'm gonna encourage everybody, as you're reading section 18, I want you to look for what are the things in section 18 that the Lord is saying, and here's another piece of your foundation you're gonna need. And here's another piece, I mean as you guys are reading 18, did anything stand out to you where you're like, "Wow, we need a foundation of that."

0:11:44.3 AM: It's kind of interesting, the first thing that stood out to me as I was reading through it was like when I was on my mission, one of the big verses was the worth of souls is great in the sight of God, and then there was the song... I think if you should labor all your days and bring one soul unto me, how great...

0:11:57.9 TH: Oh, the Janice Kapp Perry song. Sure. Sure...

0:12:00.4 AM: Yeah. Okay, so yeah, Janice Kapp Perry. I love her. I love her.

0:12:03.7 TH: And if it so be that ye should labor all your days... Come on Abe.

0:12:06.6 AM: That's it, but it says, it's like if you should labor all your days, just bring one soul unto repentance. When you look at that, you go, when you're laboring to do these types of things, or at least have this in your mindset, as you go about your work and your hobbies, charities that you lend your time to or the service that you do, if you can just think about it from a standpoint of, let me show a way of living that just brings joy and love. And I think that all of us could use more of that in our lives, whether it be us being served or whether it be doing the serving.

0:12:38.5 TH: Great example. Awesome. Great foundation. Anything for you, Ty?

0:12:42.2 TC: Those were the two that really stuck out to me was, if you bring just one soul unto me how great would be the joy, and if you just bring one and how great would be the joy, imagine bringing many souls unto me.

0:12:53.8 TH: You know what, Tyler, Abe, thank you. Thank you for pointing out the foundational truth that stood out to you in this section. That was awesome. Now, there are more in section 18. In fact, you know what, let's do this, I'm gonna put this out on social media this week and ask those of you listening, what you found in section 18 that can build or strengthen your foundation. I think that'd be kind of cool to see what you guys found. And so in the next segment, we're gonna start learning about this idea that Abe shared, that the worth of souls is great and what that means for us.

Segment 2

0:13:29.7 TH: Okay, Abe and Tyler, both of you are fathers. So tell me, what is it like to be a dad?

0:13:33.9 TC: You're always right. But nobody cares.

[laughter]

0:13:42.2 AM: I thought that was just me.

0:13:42.3 TC: I'm kidding.

0:13:42.3 AM: No, I'm just kidding.

[laughter]

0:13:45.2 TH: Kind of.

0:13:48.5 AM: That's funny. You know, being a dad, I think it's just a lesson. It's just a big lesson every day, I feel like I'm in class learning something, whether it be patients or whether it be learning something that I thought that I knew that I'm learning something better either from my wife or from one of my kids. It's a constant learning process.

0:14:08.1 TC: I love that you said that Abe because as I get older, I try to see my family, my kids, the way that God sees them. And some days I do, some days I don't. I found a pretty cool quote online. It's by Elisabeth Elliott. She's a Christian author and a speaker. She has since passed away, but she had a pretty good quote on Father's Day. She said "If you take being a father seriously, you'll know that you're not being enough for the job. Not by yourself. Being a father will put you on your knees if nothing else ever did." I pondered on that because it's so true. I want my kids to have the best, be the best in whatever they're doing, but more importantly, I want them to be spiritually ready and prepared and blessed, and I can do everything I can in a physical world, I've only got so much money and time to devote and hand out and give, but in a spiritual sense, there's no reason why we cannot pray for our kids. We really want the best for our kids, that's kinda my take on it.

0:15:14.0 AM: I think you're right. Is there any doubt that the best work that we can do as fathers is to teach the Gospel and to try to help our kids make good choices I mean... It's easy to get caught up in like, okay, everyday things. And all those things are very important to me but when you start reading this and you start looking at how important being a father is, it's really important to have fathers in the lives of kids today, and I think some of the biggest problems that we have as a society can point to the lack of father's involvement in kids' lives. And so as I read through this, I thought, "Man, it's so important, that I'm not only involved in my kids' lives but that I am focusing on things that need to be focused on," which in this case we're talking about, how important is the worth of a soul in the sight of God, how important is it that I teach them about what we're talking about here, repentance, faith, and you can't force some of this stuff, man. [chuckle]

0:16:13.0 TH: Yeah, true.

0:16:14.0 AM: You just wanna force it sometimes like...

0:16:17.0 TC: It's funny because I've never had a 16-year-old boy before. I do now.

0:16:23.6 AM: Yeah.

0:16:24.2 TC: And next year... Or this year rather, when he turns 17, I've never had a 17-year-old boy before, so I'm still learning as I go, but it's kind of to touch upon what you're saying, Abe, he's getting missionary aims ready, and how important is it for me to help with that. And so it's a lot of self-reflectiveness as well.

0:16:43.4 TH: Yeah, I bet it's been that way for both of you. As you were talking, the idea of talking about this fatherhood thing is because I wanna follow up with this question to both of you. What one thing do you want your kids to know from you? If you could leave one thing with your children, one statement, what is it? What do you want them to know?

0:17:01.6 TC: To love God.

0:17:01.7 AM: And I would say follow Christ.

0:17:04.2 TH: Perfect answers.

0:17:07.3 AM: I think those two things go together, right?

0:17:07.3 TH: Yes, I feel like section 18 verse 10 is the one thing that God wants us to remember. There's so much that he could tell us. It's just like you said like, you can't force it, you can't shove it down your kids' throat, but above all else, here's what he wants us to know and Abe, you touched upon this. Will you please read section 18, verse 10?

0:17:24.9 AM: Remember the worth of souls is great in the sight of God.

0:17:29.0 TH: Isn't that powerful that he begins that verse with remember. What does that tell us?

0:17:34.8 AM: It tells us that we forget a lot.

[chuckle]

0:17:38.0 TH: Yeah, yeah, like there's something, I don't want you to forget this. I want you to remember, like I have that word highlighted, remember the worth of souls is great in the sight of God, this isn't a platitude. And I love that word when I learned what it meant, platitude is when people say, bloom where you are planted or when you're going through a hard time, that which doesn't kill us makes us stronger. Alright, yeah, whatever. It's just those try little things that people say to make you feel better, that's not this. In fact, I love the word great in Hebrew, highlight that word in that verse, because the word great, it doesn't mean better than good, in Hebrew great, it's the word gadol, and it's used to describe something that is great in magnitude and intensity. It's used to distinguish men and women of importance. I just think that's so cool. Like, yeah, the worth of souls is great in magnitude in the sight of God, and so there's a couple of quotes I want us to read about the idea of our father saying this to us, our heavenly Father. Tyler, will you please read this first quote for us.

0:18:42.0 TC: It is significant that of all the titles of respect and honor and admiration that are given to God, He has asked us to address Him as Father.

0:18:51.9 TH: Let me ask you as fathers, how does that statement affect the way you view God?

0:18:57.3 TC: Wow. That's a lot of love. Everything you call him, almighty, master, all of these titles that just mean the greatest thing in the world, but all he asks is that we just call him father.

0:19:13.6 AM: Yeah, there's not as much separation as sometimes it can feel like, this is isn't as great. And I think the first thing that came to my mind was, "Wow, what does that mean about my role as a father?" I think it just highlights the importance of what we do as fathers and our dependence on our Father to be able to fulfill those responsibilities.

0:19:36.8 TH: Yeah, 100%. I love what both of you said about that. When he says that the worth of souls is great in the sight of God, our Father thinks that we are great, and so my question is, is this conditional though? Does he think some kids are better than others, or does he mean all the souls?

0:19:57.4 TC: It's all the souls.

0:19:58.3 AM: Yeah, he means all of them.

0:20:00.2 TH: Yeah. Do you love all of your children?

0:20:02.9 AM: Definitely.

0:20:03.9 TH: Yeah. Right? Sometimes. [laughter] I think it's, I know, I love the honesty in that, because this is what's so unique about our heavenly Father, is that it is all of the children, he loves all of them. But we forget that sometimes. So my question to you, Abe and Tyler is, have you in your life ever felt that your soul wasn't that great?

0:20:30.5 AM: I do feel like there are people, and I've experienced this myself, where you do everything, right? And then you feel like you're not receiving the blessings that you were promised or that you feel like you deserved, and I think that sometimes people feel that way, like maybe I'm not as important. Why is it that this other person over here gets all the stuff that I'm wanting, and yet I'm over here, I pay my tithing, I go to church all the time, I do my calling the best I can, stay up late at night to teach my kids, and then I wake up and do all the stuff that I'm supposed to do as a mom or a dad. And so sometimes I do feel like that happens, but I think about it from being a father, and you've probably experienced it before you have a kid, that they do everything right and they do it right because they think if I do this right, then my parents are gonna give me this thing, or I get to go to this place with my friends or whatever it is, and then you don't let them go or you don't give it to them.

0:21:27.6 AM: But you can kinda see like, "Hey, this is what's best for you. You might not see it right now, but I know." And so how many times has God done that to us? Where we're going around, this is what's gonna be best for me, and I'm gonna go do this and I'm gonna get this job and we're gonna move here. And then God's like, "No, you're gonna be right here, this is where you're supposed to be," and it's like, "Dang, God, why are you trying to keep me down" and stuff, and I think that sometimes... You know what I'm saying? Sometimes it feels like that for people, but it's not true, because ultimately when you stand over here and you look back, you go, "Oh man, I'm so glad that God did better than I did, 'cause I can picture myself in a better place."

0:22:07.7 TC: It's kind of one of those things, knowing what I know now versus if I would have known back then...

0:22:14.7 TH: Then this is my follow-up question to you, what evidences do you have that you are of great worth to God, you personally?

0:22:22.8 AM: When I don't get caught up in the little things. And I look at the big picture, I can just see his hand in my life in so many ways, which shows me that he cares about me. So that means that I have a great value.

0:22:36.5 TH: Amen.

0:22:37.7 TC: I dig it, man. Yeah, that holds true for me as well. I see too many miracles in my family's life to not believe that.

0:22:47.2 AM: And if I could say one last thing, I do feel like, especially with the way the world is right now, it's really easy to focus on all the negativity. But, man, when you can get up and I feel like this is something that my son has been able to do, he's on a mission right now, he didn't get to go where he was assigned to. He got sent home for three months and then got sent out to some other place that he wasn't expecting to go, and then they can't even go out and teach people they have to stay in their apartment. I mean all of these things that you think a mission is, is all of a sudden like now like, no, sorry but you're still serving and all this other stuff, and I'm like going, "Man, if I had to go through that, that would be rough," you know.

0:23:22.6 TH: Yeah.

0:23:23.9 AM: But he's handling it and going, "You know what, I have to get up every day and have to think about what is it that I'm grateful for, what is it that God has given me?" And once I do that, and this is what he said, he says, "Once I do that, it's really easy for me to be grateful for where I am and to see how blessed I really am." And so I think we forget that sometimes, especially when things are going on in the world as they are, people get so distracted, it's easy for us to get distracted, but if we can just stay focused on those things that we're grateful for, "Okay, what has God given me," you've probably had times like this yourself where you have to just wake up and just go, "Okay, let's count what I do have... "

0:23:57.6 TH: Yeah.

0:24:00.5 AM: "And then maybe I'll be able to get through this day." So sometimes it's just about being grateful.

0:24:03.8 TH: Well, I love that you brought that up Abe because it has been such a difficult time for a lot of people, and it's so easy to think, "Well, where is God in all of this because my prayers haven't been answered. Things aren't going the way I thought." It's easy to think that maybe God doesn't like me because things aren't going the way I want them to go. And that is classic Satan, he is the antithesis of this verse. He does not want us to believe that God thinks we're awesome, that God thinks that the worth of our souls is so incredible, and he does, God loves us, and if anyone out there listening, whatever you think about God, believe the three of us, God loves you. And he is aware of you and he thinks you are amazing, and if all you can do and Abe, I like how you said, "Look for the good, look what you have." I love this quote by Elder Holland because if there's only one thing you can attribute to his goodness, it's in this quote, and we just have to read it going back to this idea of being fathers. And then Abe, will read this quote for us?

0:25:00.7 AM: "Of the many magnificent purposes served in the life and ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ, one great aspect of that mission often goes uncelebrated. It is the grand truth that in all that Jesus came to say and do, including and especially in His atoning suffering and sacrifice, He was showing us who and what God our Eternal Father is like, how completely devoted He is to His children in every age and nation. In word and in deed Jesus was trying to reveal and make personal to us the true nature of His Father, our Father in Heaven."

0:25:35.8 TH: That just gets me in my heart every time I read it, that the atonement of Jesus Christ, the whole purpose of that was to show us that God loves us, and that's the good. That's the good that you have. And in the next segment, we're gonna dig into the most important soul that God needs us to find.

Segment 3

0:25:57.9 TC: So here's a story about my dad. Now, Tyler, you of course know him very well, you're part of our family, and Abe, you know him from our days back in Missouri. So my dad served his mission in South Africa. Back in the day, he was one of the first Afrikaans speaking missionaries, and he went when the mission was two and a half years long, so he got an extra bonus mission. And when I was a teenager, I was talking to my dad about his mission, and this is the exact conversation we had, I said, "Dad, how many people did you convert on your mission in Africa?" And he looked at me, and he's like, "one." I laugh and I'm like, "What a waste of time! Two and a half years and you only saved what... You only converted one person."

0:26:40.3 AM: Poor guy.

0:26:43.3 TH: What a joke. I was so rude. I totally was.

0:26:43.4 AM: He's such a nice positive guy too.

[laughter]

0:26:46.4 TH: He is. He is. And he just looked to me and I was like... And then I said, "Who was it?" And he looks at me, he said, "It was me."

0:26:54.3 AM: Oh that's cold.

0:26:57.2 TH: I know! I know. Listen, my dad comes from a colorful family, and he was pretty much the only active member at the time, my grandmother was... His father was not a member of the church, and my dad, when he told me that, and I knew his history, I was like, "Wow." And that really is true. He did not baptize anyone in two and a half years, he may be have taught some discussions, but not really. And when he said me, that was powerful because of this verse, let's go to section 18, and we're gonna read verses 13 through 15. And as we do, tell me what this verse has to do with my dad's story when we're done. Tyler, will you read 13 through 15.

0:27:32.2 TC: And how great is his joy in the soul that repenteth! Wherefore, you are called to cry repentance unto this people. And if it so be that you should labor all your days in crying repentance unto this people, and bring, save it be one soul unto me, how great shall be your joy with him in the kingdom of my Father!

0:27:52.8 TH: And Abe, you touched on this at the beginning.

0:27:54.6 TC: I did.

0:27:55.0 TH: Who is the one soul?

0:27:56.2 TC: It's you. That's it.

0:27:58.8 TH: Yeah.

0:28:00.4 TC: Well, and it's the concept that truly we don't convert anyone, they get converted through Jesus Christ into the spirit, and it says here in 14, where he... You are called to cry repentance unto this people, not to convert them, but to cry repentance, not to force them to repent.

0:28:15.7 TH: That is so true, conversion starts and ends with the spirit, because how can you possibly cry repentance if you yourself haven't repented? How can you possibly talk about the Savior and his atonement when you haven't experienced that in your own life? So here's my next question for both of you, and I asked you to come prepared for this. I wanna know then if that one soul is you, how have you been converted?

0:28:39.7 TC: It's funny because it kept entering my mind and I'm like, "No, I don't wanna I share that," but then I'd have a stupid thought and I would literally have nothing else to think of. So I'm guessing for what was telling me, I need to share it. For me, it was before my mission, I was actually 15, 16 maybe, we had a trip, a youth activity trip to Adam-ondi-Ahman. And while we were there, the weather was overcast, so cloudy, in fact, it had actually rained earlier in the day, and a group of us, the young men, we were close growing up, all of us, our leader at the time, I believe he was Curtis Rasmondson, and he took us kind of down away from the path and found this really big rock just out in the middle of some field, we kind of circled around the rock and brother Erasmus said, "You know what, I'm gonna say a prayer, guys." It was an experience. I don't exactly remember the words that were said, but I remember how it made me feel.

0:29:53.9 TC: When the prayer was done, there wasn't a dry eye in that circle, and the clouds had actually parted, and there was just this beam of sunlight right on us. Wasn't five feet to the left of us, to the right of us, right on us. That day that was what did it for me. Like this is all true. This is it. I'm blessed. God loves me. He's got things in store for me. This is it.

0:30:19.8 TH: Beautiful story. You can feel it as you were telling that story. I wish people could have seen your face. You lit up. That was awesome. Thank you for sharing that. What about you, Abe?

0:30:32.0 AM: So it was when my dad was the branch president for the Southeast Asian branch in Massachusetts. I used to help the missionaries, I used to drive them to their appointments, and in some cases, I would be... They would do splits and I would be the one that was with one missionary and we would go and we would teach discussions, so when we went, we were teaching someone who was Laotian, and so I don't speak Laotian, so I just thought, I'm here to drive and just sit with this missionary. And so as we did, we went into this very humble home, and this woman had invited us in and we were talking to her, as he was talking to her, he looked over to me and said, "Could we tell her the Joseph Smith story?" And I was like, "I don't speak Laotian," and He's like, "Oh, that's okay. Just say it in English." And so I went to recite the Joseph Smith story.

0:31:21.8 AM: As I went through it, I looked up and this lady was in tears. As I saw her in tears and as I continued to tell the story, I had this feeling, this is real. I knew at that point that not only was God real, not only was Jesus Christ the Savior but the things that we were talking about teaching her about a prophet and God, Jesus visiting this prophet. I knew it was real, I knew that it happened, I knew that that story that I was telling was true, and it was basically my go-to for years and years, I still draw upon it, and I've had many other experiences that I'm able to go, "Wow, this is real." And what an amazing experience. I'll remember it forever.

0:32:16.1 TH: Oh, thank you, Abe. Thanks for sharing that story. For both of you, for sharing your stories. There's power in conversion, not just for ourselves, but verse 16 tells us for other people. Abe, will you read verse 16?

0:32:28.5 AM: And now, if your joy will be great with one soul that you have brought unto me into the kingdom of my Father, how great will be your joy if you should bring many souls unto me!

0:32:37.9 TH: And let's cross-reference that with Luke chapter 22, verses 31 through 32. That's Luke chapter 22, verses 31 through 32, and this is where the Savior is speaking to the apostles, and I love it, because in it he says, "And when thou art converted, strengthen my brethren." And he says, before you can even go out and teach the Gospel of Jesus Christ to other people, you have to become converted. He's saying this to men who become his apostles, and I just think that's powerful for all of us, that before you can even go out to talk to other people, you've gotta be converted. And that boils down to repenting and having spiritual experiences and humbling yourself and opening your heart. I love how in verse 13, how great is the joy in the soul that repenteth, that you would never equate repenting with joy, at least not as a teenager, I never did. I was like, "Wah wah." But there is so much joy in that repentance process, and so 18... I just love it in section 18 that's saying, once you've done that for yourself, then you can totally go and do it for other people.

0:33:39.9 TH: Now, here's my thought, because as I was reading this, I really like what section 18 verses 22, 23, and 24 tell us because here's how we can do this then, here's how we can convert other people, because I don't know when I went on my mission, maybe you guys were the same way, I really thought everyone was gonna listen to me, I got off that plane in Fresno, California, ready to convert the entire City of Fresno, and it just didn't turn out to be that easy, and I thought they'd just believe my words, my stories, but I like how section 18 boils it down. Well, then what do I do? What do I teach? How do convert? I'm gonna read verses 23-24. As we read these verses, my thought is like, "Well, what do we do, what do I teach? How can I bring souls back to our heavenly Father?" Here we go, 23. "Behold, Jesus Christ is the name which is given of the Father, and there is none other name given whereby man can be saved. Wherefore, all men must take upon them the name which is given of the Father, for in that name shall they be called at the last day. What tools do we need to help bring one soul unto the Father?

0:34:43.0 AM: It's all about Christ, and when we can help them understand Christ or feel what Christ is all about, then it helps convince them to repent and change that there's a different way than the way that we're doing things now.

0:34:57.3 TH: But how do we do it though? For reals. In real time. What does this look like?

0:35:02.5 AM: One of my favorite songs that I've been listening to lately is called Love God and Love People. You can check that out, what's the guy's name?

0:35:09.6 TH: Sing a little bit to us. Come on, give it to us, Abe. You're a singer, just...

0:35:14.7 AM: What's the... I'm trying remember... Okay, so...

0:35:16.4 TH: Unabashedly, just let it go and sing it for us.

0:35:17.6 AM: I tell myself to keep this up, that God wants more than just my love. But I've been complicating things. It's just like me to overthink. Gotta keep it real simple, keep it real simple. Bring everything right back to ground zero. 'Cause it all comes down to this. Love God and love people. We're living in a world that keeps breakin'. But if we want to find a way to change it. It all comes down to this. Love God and love people. Anyway, that's the song.

0:35:52.6 TH: Yeah! That is awesome!

0:35:54.0 AM: That's my song that I've been listening to for a minute now. But I think that it comes down. It's very simple, it comes down, love God and love people. And when you say convert people, I think first of all, you can tell them anything, you can give them any amount of information, but I think that if they don't see your love and they don't feel the love that you have for God, then I don't think that it matters at all because we go back to that conversion, if I would have sat there and I would have told that story and then she cried and I thought, "Alright, something's weird. Are you messing with me? Elder, you know, like you're... "

0:36:30.3 TH: Did you set me up?

0:36:31.7 AM: You told me that she's... Yeah, yeah, and if I didn't really participate in feeling the spirit of that moment then I never would have been converted through that experience. And so people have to be converted. It's a very personal thing, and so it comes down to the only way that we can do that is to provide that experience for people, in the best way that we can provide the experience for people is by teaching truth, by love, by letting them know that we love them, and by practicing that love. To me, that's been the most effective way is I see people come unto, come unto Christ.

0:37:06.0 TH: Great answer, Abe. Thank you, and thanks for singing. That was fantastic. Love God and love people.

0:37:11.5 AM: Hey, you know what, hope it was all in tune.

0:37:13.7 TH: Oh it was. It was great, it was great. What about you, Ty?

0:37:17.4 AM: What do you say after that?

0:37:19.9 TH: How have you done it? I mean, seriously, how do you bring people to Christ and tell them to repent without sounding like a jerk?

0:37:25.9 AM: It all starts with you as an individual. If you're not willing to take upon you the name of Christ or be like Christ, you're not gonna have a genuine love for other people. Without that genuine love, I don't wanna say it's fake, 'cause I think intentions are real and good, but it's gonna be the spirit that will do the converting, right? It's gonna be the spirit that touches their heart. You're just the vessel. And if you are truly trying to be like Christ and you striving to be like Him, your vessel is gonna stay afloat, your spirit would be able to touch those that you encounter, maybe not in the way that you think it will, but it will.

0:38:10.8 TH: Well, Tyler going off of what you said, I love when you said you can't do it if there's not a genuine love of Jesus Christ like it starts with us, and I like that you pointed that out because in the next segment, we are going to talk about how to begin? That genuine love for Jesus Christ. And I'm so excited.

Segment 4

0:38:32.2 TH: So in preparation for this episode, I asked you to do something that I've really never asked any guest to do before. I asked you to read section 19, and then I asked you to let me know when you have done that. And I sent you the history behind section 19, and then I asked you to read it again knowing the back history. So here's my question, I wanna know, did knowing the history change the way you read it the second time?

0:39:02.4 AM: Definitely.

0:39:03.4 TH: How so?

0:39:03.9 AM: Well, I think for me, everything just had more depth to it because I was like, "Oh okay, so this is the reason why he felt like these words were needed," but it was just interesting to go, "Okay, I understand this now, I understand why this section was written."

0:39:21.4 TC: I like the word that you used Abe in providing depth. It really did. It brought out a lot of things that you were kinda like, "Wow, what has happened here?"

0:39:31.5 TH: Yeah, and Tyler, you texted me after you read it the first time, and you said, "Well, I just finished the gloom and doom chapter, so I wanna hear your honest opinions." How did you feel after reading this section for the first time?

0:39:43.9 TC: Like I couldn't do anything, right? Like no matter what I did, it's all in vain because my faith has been sealed.

[laughter]

0:39:53.1 TH: You're like, okay, maybe my soul is maybe the worth of my soul is great, but apparently it isn't.

0:40:00.0 TC: Yeah, right. Maybe not as great as I thought.

0:40:00.5 TH: Yeah.

0:40:01.6 AM: In a way like if you're looking at it from an earthly perspective, it just seems like to put you in your place, now it's kind of like that talk that you have with your kid where you want them to come away knowing that you love them, but at the same time, you want them to understand that this car that he thinks is his is not his car, I gave it to you. The stuff that you think is yours, I gave it to you. Hello, you know, it's like...

0:40:26.5 TC: Not just that, but our actions have consequences. We can choose their actions, but we cannot choose our consequences. I tell that to people I arrest all the time. Hey, you knew your consequences. You don't have a say in your consequence, you had to say up to everything until I got here. Now, I know we're innocent until proven guilty, and I do firmly believe that, but the ideology of it still stays the same. You have choice in your actions, but you don't have choice in the consequences.

0:40:57.2 AM: And you're right, and I'm like 100% backing you on that, and in some ways, it's kind of like the mindset that you have drives you to do these things, to think that well, maybe the consequence won't be that for me.

0:41:12.9 TC: Right, yeah.

0:41:14.8 AM: And in this section, I think Martin Harris is kind of like, he has a mindset that was different than what God was trying to instill in him.

0:41:23.9 TH: Okay, so now that we know how you guys felt about reading section 19 for the first time, will you give us a little bit of back history that I shared with you guys as it relates to Martin Harris?

0:41:34.1 TC: Well, I know he gave up 240 acres of his farm as a collateral, right? It's like a guarantee paying the $3000 for the Book of Mormon to be printed, and he was kind of worried about that because he got word that Book of Mormon probably wasn't gonna sell, and he wouldn't be able to pay his debt, and so consequently he would lose his farm.

0:41:56.3 TH: And the opposition was fierce. I mean there were crowds of people getting together saying, we're not gonna support the Book of Mormon. There was a man who tried to publish in his own newspaper. He actually got parts of the Book of Mormon and he was like, "Ooh, if I publish this before the Book of Mormon comes out, then we'll make Joseph Smith look like a fraud." And Joseph Smith actually decided he was going to charge him with plagiarism and he won that, so this man, Abner Cole, he didn't get to publish anything, but it was a pretty heated time and, yeah, Martin Harris started getting wind from lots of people that no one's buying this book. And he is freaking out about it. What else do you remember Abe?

0:42:34.9 AM: He realized, "I got this money on the line and this probably isn't gonna go right," and so he was really concerned. He was really concerned. And he told Joseph Smith, I need a commandment. I need you to go back and get a commandment that says that this is what's supposed to happen.

0:42:52.3 TH: You're totally right, Abe. Martin asked Joseph for a revelation, which at the time he called a commandment. It's funny 'cause Joseph was like, "you're fine, you don't need to... I'm not giving you a revelation," and Martin Harris insisted, interestingly enough three times and...

[chuckle]

0:43:07.7 AM: This dude does not learn, man. You know what I'm saying, like...

0:43:11.4 TH: He's like, "Come on." And so Joseph puts him off three or four times before finally, the next day in the morning, when Martin had come to visit him, he's like, "Okay, I'm gonna give you this revelation," and that's what section 19 is. It's interesting to me that Joseph insisted, listen, everything's gonna be fine, and that Martin didn't need a commandment or a revelation at the time, and like you said, incidentally, the Book of Mormon didn't sell. So here's kind of a cool thing that I found, you can look this up, and we'll put this in our show notes, it's at the churchofjesuschrist.org under the church history. It is believed that the amount that Martin gave in 1830 would have been equal to $67,000 today, and some even say that Martin's overall gift would have been worth more than $1.6 million today. So there was a lot on the line here.

0:43:57.1 AM: So I have a question and it doesn't have anything to do with 18 that we have to cover, but I was just wondering like, why is he like going through all this stuff and then all of a sudden he's just like, "Oh yeah, and by the way, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife nor seek thy neighbor's life."

0:44:10.8 TC: Interesting. I thought the same thing. That tells me that there was something going on.

0:44:16.3 AM: Yeah, I'm like going away, man, what... I'm like, let me read back again. What is it...

0:44:20.7 TC: Yeah, yeah, out of nowhere, bam!

[laughter]

0:44:24.5 TH: It's like a cartoon double take where your eyes go boiyoink. That just happened in verse 25. Oh, I love that you said that Abe. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so I did a ton of research on that verse, and here's the reaction, here's the reality. We're not sure if it was for Martin Harris or not. Some scholars believe it could have possibly been because his marriage was kind of on the rocks, 'cause Lucy, 116 pages had been lost, he had given away his money, the farm, all of this, and so their marriage did not survive this, and later Martin will actually marry Caroline Young who is a niece of Brigham Young. So I thought that was pretty cool. Abe, I'm so glad you brought up those two verses and that was fun to talk about. So before we can get into more about Martin Harris, let's start at the very beginning of this section, then go to section 19, and we're gonna look at a couple of words that are important to help us understand a little bit more about this doom and gloom chapter. I'm gonna call it that from now on Tyler. So go to verse one with me. And Tyler, will you read verse one, please.

0:45:23.9 TC: I am Alpha and Omega, Christ the Lord; yea, even I am he, the beginning and the end, the Redeemer of the world.

0:45:34.2 TH: Okay, we're gonna mark a couple of things about this. So in scripture, when you read, I am Alpha and Omega, Alpha is the first letter in the Greek alphabet, and Omega is the last letter. And so when he says, I am Alpha and Omega, He's really saying, I am the beginning, I am the end. But something interesting about what those symbolize is, I am the creation and I am the judgment, like I am here at the beginning and the end, I created you and I will judge you. That's what He's trying to help us understand. And remember, we talked about how this is going to help us build a foundation of a real relationship with Christ. This is where it begins right here because then it says, I am He, the beginning and the end, the redeemer of the world. Mark the word redeemer because I love how in Latin, the word redeemer means to buy back from, and it may be kind of think, and I wanted to ask you guys, what does Christ buy us back from? Like what is he redeeming us from?

0:46:26.0 AM: Our debts that we've created, our consequences, like Tyler said before, our consequences that we put ourselves into, He's redeeming us from that.

0:46:36.1 TH: Perfect, and next to that, and where it says redeemer, write that Latin word buy back from. It's exactly what He's doing, but there's two main things, he redeems us from not only our sins, which would equal spiritual death, but He's going to redeem us from physical death, which is the resurrection, so there's two things, He'll buy us back from dying physically and dying spiritually, so we understand the resurrection, and then we dive into chapter 19, which is going to talk about spiritual death.

0:47:03.5 TH: So right now, we're only gonna talk about two verses of scripture, and these... I kinda feel like these two verses at the beginning of this idea that it's a doom and gloom chapter because versus one through five lead up to talking about how we need to repent, and verse 4 says, we have to repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless. Like this idea you need to repent. So let's listen to verses 6 and 7, and as we do, I want you to pick out what word pairs kinda make it feel doom and gloomy a little bit.

0:47:32.3 TH: Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment. Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name's glory.

0:47:47.4 TH: Okay, there's two words there in verse 6 and 7 that just leave you in such despair. What are those words?

0:47:52.0 TC: Endless torment.

0:47:54.9 TH: Yes, and eter...

0:47:55.9 TC: And eternal damnation.

0:47:58.0 TH: Ah...

0:47:58.8 AM: Yeah.

0:47:58.9 TH: I want you to put Moses chapter 1, verse 3 next to these verses, and Moses chapter 7, verse 35, and let's go there. So Moses chapter 1, we're gonna reframe this endless torment and eternal damnation. Tyler, will you please read Moses chapter 1, verse 3, and Abe, will you please read Moses chapter 7, verse 35.

0:48:20.0 TC: And God spake unto Moses, saying: Behold, I am the Lord God Almighty, and Endless is my name; for I am without beginning of days or end of years; and is not this endless?

0:48:33.1 TH: What did he just say His name is?

0:48:36.4 TC: Almighty, the word God, Endless is my name.

0:48:39.3 TH: Endless is my name. Abe, read your verse?

0:48:42.8 AM: Behold, I am God; Man of Holiness is my name; Man of Counsel is my name; and Endless and Eternal is my name, also.

0:48:51.9 TH: So God just taught us that His name is Endless, his name is Eternal. So go back to section 19 verses 6 or 7, and look how it changes the way we traditionally view endless torment and eternal damnation. He's teaching us that the punishment is his and it has nothing to do with time. Now, think about it for a minute. Yeah, mind-blowing...

0:49:14.2 TC: Right?

0:49:14.3 AM: Yeah.

0:49:15.3 TH: Because you are dads, if you were to inflict a punishment on your child for doing something bad, what kind of punishment does that look like?

0:49:23.4 AM: Yeah, I mean it doesn't last forever. That's one thing. It's like, go in the corner. Go pull weeds until they're all gone. [chuckle] That could be there, but it's not eternal, it's not unending, and that's where the atonement comes in, so greatly is that we get an opportunity to feel the love that Christ has for us and the heavenly Father has for us and...

0:49:47.1 TH: And remember, I think this worth of your soul is great.

0:49:51.3 AM: Right.

0:49:52.4 TH: And I love you.

0:49:53.7 AM: I think you're just like, I'mma focus you right now, 'cause I know you keep coming to my man, asking him for a commandment. You know what I'm saying? I'm gonna tell you exactly what it is, and right now, you understand I am the beginning and I am the one that's eternal. Don't get caught up on all this farm stuff. I think he said it well.

0:50:11.3 TC: I'm really.

0:50:12.5 TH: Go ahead, Ty.

0:50:12.5 TC: I was just saying I'm really glad that you clarified that, because I go back to verse 1, "I am Alpha and Omega, Christ the Lord; yea, even I am he, the beginning and the end, the Redeemer of the world." There's no doubt who Christ is. There's no doubt the power that he has. There is no doubt that this is the supreme being, right? There's no doubt. And then to clarify, six and seven, and that's mind-blowing on that, 'cause you have this just all-powerful, all-loving, just supreme being, to only turn around and say, you know what, the endless torment is gonna be mine, the eternal damnation is gonna be mine. That's just... That's awesome.

0:51:01.7 TH: Let's read these quotes so that you know it's not just me teaching false doctrine, [chuckle] in case anyway. I like to support some of these things with quotes, this is from James E. Talmage, and here's what he has to say about this idea of the punishment being God's. Tyler, will you read this right here?

0:51:17.4 TC: True, we read of everlasting punishment, unending suffering, eternal damnation. That is a direful expression; but in his mercy the Lord has made plain what those words mean. 'Eternal punishment,' he says, is God's punishment, for he is eternal.

0:51:36.1 TH: There it is, the suffering referred to by the savior, like I said, it's not quantity of punishment that's to be meted out and experienced for a predetermined length of time, that's how we've always read those verses, that it's just gonna last forever, and it's gonna be awful. And so when we repent, the atonement of Jesus Christ has claim upon us, and I love how Elder Holland puts this into words, it's in a talk called The Grandeur of God, I highly recommend everybody read it 'cause it's brilliant about the way he talks about our heavenly Father, but let's read this about his torment and his damnation. And Abe, will you read that for us?

0:52:11.6 AM: Our heavenly Father is more liberal in His views, and boundless in His mercies and blessings, than we are ready to believe or receive. God does not look on sin with the least degree of allowance, but the nearer we get to our heavenly Father, the more we are disposed to look with compassion on perishing souls; we feel that we want to take them upon our shoulders, and cast their sins behind our backs.

0:52:38.9 TH: I just think that's awesome.

0:52:40.8 AM: Beautiful.

0:52:42.3 TH: How God does that for us.

0:52:43.5 AM: And I think just you clarifying that, what it does is not only does it make you feel better. Because you're like...

0:52:51.3 TH: Right?

0:52:52.8 AM: Eternal torment sounds really bad, but on top of that, what it does is it circles back to the eternal truth that we all know, which is you will not overcome any of these things without Christ the Savior, and that's where He's circling it back to, I am eternal, it will be eternal damnation, it will be punishment from me unless you come unto me, unless you accept me as a savior and repent and which I think is beautiful.

0:53:21.1 TH: Yeah. Absolutely. Abe, I like how you said, it all comes back to Christ. It absolutely does. So it will all come back to him. And so with that then, in the next segment, we are going to look at one of the most vivid descriptions of how it all comes back to Jesus Christ.

Segment 5

0:53:46.2 TH: Alright, we're just gonna jump right in and discuss verses 13 through 20. Here we go, guys. You ready to do this?

0:53:53.1 TC: Mm-hmm. Let's do it.

0:53:55.8 TH: Now, Tyler, I love that you said at the very beginning that this is a first-person account, and you're absolutely right, and so it's so vivid, a little bit heart-wrenching, and we're gonna read these verses together, so all of you listening, if you have a chance, grab your scriptures, or turn it up in your radio, so your kids can hear this 'cause it's some great verses. The first thing we have to look at is verse 13. And so Tyler, will you read that for us?

0:54:20.4 TC: Wherefore, I command you to repent, and keep the commandments which you have received by the hand of my servant Joseph Smith, Jr., in my name.

0:54:29.6 TH: Okay, just at the very beginning of that sentence, what does he tell us about repenting?

0:54:33.3 AM: He commands us to do it.

0:54:35.7 TH: Yeah, it's not a suggestion. It's not a recommendation. So knowing that we're commanded to repent, how does that change your view on repentance?

0:54:44.6 TC: It's a necessity.

0:54:45.9 AM: I feel compelled. I feel compelled.

0:54:48.7 TH: Yeah. Preach! [chuckle]

0:54:51.4 AM: What was the scripture that we were reading earlier, it's like it stirred up, it feels stirred up.

0:54:56.1 TH: Oh yeah, stirred up.

0:54:57.4 AM: You know what I'm saying?

0:55:00.8 TC: And it's not just I command you to repent, but I command you to repent and keep the commandments.

0:55:06.3 AM: Yes.

0:55:07.1 TH: I remember as a kid, I used to think repentance was optional. Meh, if I want to, if I get around to it, I don't know, it'll all work out, and I didn't... When I taught this in seminary, I'm like, "Commanded. Whoo!" And then to keep his commandments, so there's a double command there. You better repent.

0:55:24.1 AM: Yeah, it's like when they tell you there's two rules and the second rule is remember rule one. It's like the commandment is to repent. The second rule is to keep the commandments so better repent. You know what I'm saying.

[laughter]

0:55:34.8 TH: That is perfect, that is perfect. Well, I gotta write that down. Say that again.

0:55:41.2 AM: What did I say the first rule is rule number one and rule number two.

0:55:43.8 TH: Remember there's two rules.

0:55:45.6 AM: Right. And the second rule is to remember rule number one.

0:55:49.3 TH: Oh my gosh. Okay, so yes, we're commanded to repent, and the Lord is going to give us his first-hand account of what that was like, and this is where we get a relationship with our Savior. I love these verses. So we're gonna read verses 15 through 20, and Tyler, we'll start with you. And we'll each just take a turn reading these, and as we do, well, you get just a scripture marker or a colored pencil or something, and what I want us all to do is look for words or phrases that stand out in the description of the Savior's experience, anything that stands out to you? Okay, here we go.

0:56:22.0 TC: Therefore I command you to repent. Repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore. How sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

0:56:41.1 AM: For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent.

0:56:47.7 TH: But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I.

0:56:51.7 TC: Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit. And would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink.

0:57:10.0 AM: Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.

0:57:15.7 TH: Wherefore, I command you again to repent, lest I humble you with my almighty power; and that you confess your sins, lest you suffer these punishments of which I have spoken, of which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree you have tasted at the time I withdrew my Spirit. Okay, what did you guys mark? What stood out to you?

0:57:34.5 AM: It talked a lot about suffering and how exquisite. We can never know how hard it is to bear. Those are a few things that stood out to me, especially at the beginning there.

0:57:50.8 TC: What stood out to me is, what Abe was saying is, you have no idea what you're in store for if you don't repent, but I like how he follows it up with love by saying, I've suffered these, that you don't have to suffer if you repent. I've been down that road. I did that for you guys, if you only repent, so you don't have to experience that. That was beautiful to me.

0:58:20.2 TH: Why do you think he would use such vivid language?

0:58:25.3 TC: In studying this, I found a conference talk in October of '98 by Elder Robert D. Hales titled Healing Soul and Body, and in there, he says, "It is interesting to note that, other than in the book of Job and a few other places, there are very few scriptural references to physical or mortal pain. The pain most frequently spoken of in the scriptures is the pain and anguish of the Lord and His prophets for the disobedient souls." I have been to a lot of dead body calls in my career, never once have I seen anybody bleeding from every pore. So I just can't even imagine the suffering that that had to have cost me.

0:59:13.1 TH: Tyler, I'm glad you pointed that out. I want us to read this quote by Elder Neal A. Maxwell. It's so striking to me when he said this. Will you read that for us?

0:59:23.8 TC: "His infinite atonement affected every age, every dispensation, and every person. Hence the appropriate symbolism of His bleeding at each and every pore, not just some."

0:59:36.9 AM: I can't imagine... And when we talk about the atonement, one of the things that I've learned as an adult is that it's not just for sin, but also for suffering and the pains that we feel, and I just think of myself like, when have I been the sickest that I've ever been in my life and how miserable that was, and I think... Now, imagine that times, however many people that have been on this Earth and that's without the sin. Like you said, it's hard to imagine what that would feel like times, and it's almost infinite when you think about it, the pain and suffering that that would bring on and to make even God bleed.

1:00:18.5 TC: When I have a kidney stone coming, I think I...

1:00:22.8 TH: I know, I know. Tyler, you did. It was brutal.

1:00:26.1 AM: Well, yeah, and that's it. And you feel that pain. It's like, but wow, we can't imagine it being so big.

1:00:31.3 TC: Yeah.

1:00:32.2 TH: Well, and the question comes up like, okay, really though, what we really have to suffer, even as Christ suffered. A lot of naysayers wanna know like, is this really real or is this trying to just get us to be scared, so we repent. I like that Elder Neal A. Maxwell also said, "We will end up either choosing Christ's manner of living or his manner of suffering. It is either suffer even as I or overcome even as He overcame," and just this idea of whatever it looks like for us, there will be some level of suffering involved, we know that, we've repented. We've had to go through the repentance process. That's hard. And as hard as it was to repent, it was equally as incredibly joyful to experience. Would you agree?

1:01:14.7 TC: Yeah.

1:01:15.6 AM: Definitely. I think the human, our human nature, when we hear something like you will suffer, even as Christ suffered, we start to think about the bleeding from every pore portion of it, but I think what he means is, when we suffer as Christ suffered, Christ's suffering was more. It was worse. When we suffer as Christ suffered, we suffer without the ability to have Christ comfort us through it.

1:01:41.6 TC: Great point. Great point.

1:01:42.6 TH: I love... Yes, in fact, Abe that's verse 20, I love that you point that out.

1:01:46.9 AM: Oh, is it?

1:01:48.5 TH: It is, yes. And you know what's so cool about you pointing that out is because when he says at the end, even in the least degree you have tasted at the time, I withdrew my spirit, and I love what Elder James E. Talmage, has to say about this. Abe, I'm gonna have you read this quote from Elder Talmage.

1:02:03.3 AM: What mind of man can fathom the significance of that awful cry? It seems, that in addition to the fearful suffering incident to crucifixion, the agony of Gethsemane had recurred, intensified beyond human power to endure. In that bitterest hour the dying Christ was alone, alone in most terrible reality. That the supreme sacrifice of the Son might be consummated in all its fulness, the Father seems to have withdrawn the support of His immediate Presence, leaving to the Savior of men the glory of complete victory over the forces of sin and death.

1:02:42.4 TH: Thank you.

1:02:43.1 AM: But he was left, he was left alone to be the victor, so that we could be victorious.

1:02:50.0 TH: Yeah, absolutely. So now going back to the history behind section 19, knowing what you know about the Savior's suffering, how do you think that might have helped Martin Harris when he considered everything and losing 116 pages and the property, how do you think that this affected his mindset?

1:03:10.7 TC: I think it'd probably gave him something more to think about, maybe something where, okay, maybe I don't have it as bad as I thought I did, and what I thought was despair for me really isn't despair.

1:03:27.6 TH: It's a great answer.

1:03:29.8 AM: Yeah. I can't imagine there's people... Examples through history, and even modern-day examples of people who have lost things, and it felt like losing everything to them, and yet they've been able to come back, and I think that the perspective to understand what it is that Christ went through. And I think Joseph Smith went through this time in his life where he needed to understand more about what Christ went through because he was going through suffering as well, but I think that to understand the pain that Christ went through would make everything that we feel just seemed so insignificant. It's like, "Okay, clearly, the things that I was so upset about, it was a distraction from the reality of what the truth is about what we're doing here."

1:04:21.1 TH: Absolutely. I'm just curious though, we have Martin Harris here who thought he had it bad, and the Lord is going to just remind him of what's important, and it got him through a hard time, and I'm just wondering, do either one of you have an example from your own life where the Savior's atonement helped you face something difficult?

1:04:35.2 TC: The passing of my dad, that was really rough for me, but the atonement kinda eases that knowing that he will be resurrected, I will too, and because of that, I'll have the opportunity to see him again, and the fact that the atonement won't allow me to see him again, that makes it peaceful for me.

1:05:11.1 TH: Thank you for sharing that, Tyler. And as you said that, I believe it, like the spirit has witnessed to what you said is true. So thank you for sharing that.

1:05:19.5 AM: Yeah, Tyler, I think that's the key, really, because when I was seven, my grandmother died, she used to babysit me when I was a kid, and when she died, I cried. I cried and cried and cried, and cried, I didn't understand the atonement of Jesus Christ. And we fast-forward about 15 years, my grandfather died, and I loved my grandfather, he was like my best friend when I was growing up, I used to call him my buddy, he called me his buddy. But when he passed away, I just had a different perspective. I had been on a mission and I understood the atonement, I understood the ability, like you said, to be able to see him again, and if you were to take those two funerals and how I felt in the way that I perceived everything that was going on and took it all in.

1:06:15.1 AM: It was a complete difference with that understanding of the atonement and what the atonement, what Christ has done for us and that gratitude of what Christ has done for us, made a complete difference in my life, and I've noticed that when people have an understanding about what Christ has done for us, we receive a comfort.

1:06:36.9 TH: Absolutely, thank you, Abe. Thank you both of you for sharing those words, and I think what's so beautiful is verse 23, when the Lord says, "Learn of me, and listen to my words; walk in the meekness of my Spirit, and you shall have peace in me." And then I look at 24, "I am Jesus Christ; I came to do the will of the Father, and I do his will." I mean I can't think of anything more, for me to be able to say that at the end, and I do His will, and to be able to have that peace in him, it's just those two verses are so beautiful because that's what all of it is about, that's what it boils down to, repent, have his peace, do His will, keep His commandments. Keep the first two rules. [chuckle] I love how you said that Abe, 'cause that is so, that is perfect. And so we have this beautiful lesson about the atonement that's given to Martin Harris and to us for us to live by and to learn from His example. It is one of the most important revelations that we have on dealing with repentance and on the nature of the atonement of Jesus Christ. So in the next segment, we're gonna finish out the section by studying the last few words that the Lord has to say to Martin Harris.

Segment 6

1:07:53.9 TC: So the very final message to Martin Harris is no doubt beautiful, and I just want us to read verses 37 through 41. Okay, so we're gonna read these. Now, this is an assignment for reals. Grab a pen, not a colored pens or anything, I want you to grab an actual pen, let's underline some principles that may have helped motivate Martin Harris and quite honestly, us to becoming more obedient to the Lord's commands. Okay? So this is sort of like a last end all hurrah for Israel, cheer us on, and we're gonna look for principles underlying them as we read these. And I'll read them 37 through 41, while you guys underline.

1:08:26.2 TH: Here we go, "And speak freely to all; yea, preach, exhort, declare the truth, even with a loud voice, with a sound of rejoicing, crying Hosanna, hosanna, blessed be the name of the Lord God! Pray always, and I will pour out my Spirit upon you, and great shall be your blessing, yea, even more than if you should obtain treasures of earth and corruptibleness to the extent thereof. Behold, canst thou read this without rejoicing and lifting up thy heart for gladness? Or canst thou run about longer as a blind guide? Or canst thou be humble and meek, and conduct thyself wisely before me? Yea, come unto me thy Savior." Amen. Are those great verses?

1:09:06.1 AM: Yeah.

1:09:06.6 TC: Those are.

1:09:07.2 TH: Okay, what did you underline? What are some great principles that we could live by? What are we being taught in these verses?

1:09:14.1 TC: He asks us to preach, exhort, and declare truth.

1:09:18.2 TH: Let's just define those real quick. Preach, I love this quote by Elder Uchtdorf, and it goes back to what you said, Abe. Elder Uchtdorf in 2013, he quoted for St. Francis Assisi in a conference talk and it said, "Preach the gospel at all times, and if necessary, use words."

1:09:32.9 AM: Mm-hmm. Love that one.

1:09:35.3 TH: Such a great way. So that's preach, and we learned last year that the word exhort, part of it means to cheer somebody on. It can mean like, I impress upon you, you really should do this. But it can also be a way of cheering people. Declare truth. Perfect. What else did you guys mark?

1:09:49.1 AM: I marked, I will pour out my spirit upon you because I was like... That's kinda cool.

1:09:55.5 TH: Yeah. [chuckle]

1:09:56.0 AM: You pray always. Not necessarily something that I can do, but...

1:09:58.8 TH: That's a great blessing for praying, huh?

1:10:01.3 AM: Yeah, I think it says, canst though read this without rejoicing, lifting up thy heart for gladness, like being in a good mood...

1:10:13.2 TH: I love that Abe, rejoice and be glad. In fact, I'm not even kidding, right here in my notes, I even wrote in my scriptures, Abe's family sunshine mafia, like why do you...

1:10:25.3 AM: That's... Yes.

1:10:26.4 TH: You are rejoicing and you're being glad, right?

1:10:29.9 AM: Totally.

1:10:30.2 TH: Like tell us a little bit... How did you come up with that name for your family? 'Cause you guys have a YouTube channel, I just have to say this, you have a YouTube channel that brings so much goodness to the world, it rejoices and it is glad. How'd you come up with that name?

1:10:39.0 AM: Sunshine mafia. Well, I think is... We were all about spread and joy and happiness, and we feel like sometimes we would covertly do that, so we feel like Sunshine Mafia was appropriate, and we're like, "Listen, if you don't stop it, you might wake up and find a smile on your car." That's the type of stuff that we do, but I think the key is just realizing that you know what, life is not easy always, and there are things that can make us sad, but what we try to do is every day try to look at what the fun and the sunshine brings into our lives and of course, when we do the sunshine, we're talking about what the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ brings into our lives so...

1:11:18.9 TH: Very covert, I love that. Anything else you guys marked in those verses?

1:11:23.6 TC: I marked great shall be your blessings, so in 38, when he says pray always, and if you do pray always, great will be your blessings, yea, even more than if you should obtain treasures of earth so your blessings are gonna be greater than whatever possibly you could obtain here on Earth, which is worldly anyway, right?

1:11:44.3 TH: Yeah.

1:11:45.2 AM: Mm-hmm. And I think the last verse is awesome as well, be humble and meek, conduct thyself wisely before me. Come unto me. It's like, could you be more direct?

1:11:57.0 TC: Not just direct, but simple.

1:12:00.9 AM: I think it's funny 'cause he says, canst though run about longer as a blind guide, like don't be blind, don't be blinded by whatever it is that's taken your eye, you know.

1:12:10.3 TH: In fact, Abe, I love that you brought that up. Let's cross-reference that for those of you wanna mark this, 'cause we studied this last year, but Helaman chapter 13, verse 29, talks about being a blind guide, there's a warning in there, and it's a great reference, Helaman chapter 13, verse 29, but it just means unable to find your way, like you're lost and you're losing others with you, you're blind, and so is everyone with you, so I think it's interesting like don't be a blind guide anymore. One of the thing I loved in verse 37, where they said, with a sound of rejoicing crying, Hosanna, Hosanna, and I love Hosanna in Hebrew, it breaks down to the word Jesus saves or save us now, or save now. And it just made me think, 'cause I said that my goal last year was to work Jesus more into my conversations and to give thanks to him more often, and so it just made me think like, am I doing that? Am I really rejoicing to people? Jesus saves. He loves you. Jesus saves.

1:13:05.2 AM: Well, anything that's so awesome about that is that that's what he says, speak freely to all, yea, preach, exhort. Don't be afraid. We found that here where we live in Florida, it's really easy for Jesus to come up in conversations, especially with people that are already going to church and believe in Jesus. And they'll say something like, "Oh, I had to go to Jesus." And for some reason, it seems like we don't put it into our language every day, and so I think it's... It's nothing to say, "Hey, I was, I just want you to know that I prayed for you. I heard you say, the thing that you're going through, I prayed for you, and I know Jesus has your back."

1:13:38.0 TH: It's a great way to do that. I prayed for you, Jesus has your back, I love that. And I love that you both brought up and talked about verse 41, and Tyler how you said it's simple, it's easy. I feel like we could end with this quote by Spencer W. Kimball, and Tyler, will you read this for us?

1:13:56.9 TC: God is your father. He loves you. He and your mother in heaven value you beyond any measure. You are unique. One of a kind, made of the eternal intelligence which gives you claim upon eternal life. Let there be no question in your mind about your value as an individual. The whole intent of the gospel plan is to provide an opportunity for each of you to reach your fullest potential, which is eternal progression and the possibility of godhood.

1:14:27.7 TH: Amen. That is what it's all about. Anything to say about that quote? Any final parting words?

1:14:35.6 TC: If you didn't have the backstory and you just read section 19 as it is, that really right there, just trying to, comforts you.

1:14:46.2 AM: Yeah, I feel like coming out of this, you know 19, it can be a doom and gloom, but in the end, the clouds part, and we see a clear path to where we're headed, there's something to be said for just trying your best every day, even though we know that we get distracted sometimes, and even though we know that we make mistakes, God is just asking for us to repent. He's just asking for us to change and to try our best, and that's all... That's all it is.

1:15:19.1 TH: That's it. I totally agree. Amen to both of you. Thank you. Wow, thanks, guys. I couldn't think of two better people to be here to discuss these sections with me, so thank you so much for all your preparation for everything that you did for today's episode. That was awesome, so cool. Alright guys, so take a minute and tell me what was your takeaway from today?

1:15:38.7 TC: For me, my takeaway is, I know that God loves me and wants me to be better, it's like Abe was saying just a moment ago, and if I repent, that's gonna make God happy, it's gonna make me happy. And that trickles down to my family.

1:15:58.8 AM: Sometimes repentance gets a bad rep because it can be so hard, it's kind of one of those things that we wanna put off, but I do believe that the takeaway from today is that it's a key part of the plan of salvation, it's a key part of us being able to fully bring the atonement of Jesus Christ into our lives, and so if I was gonna take one thing away from today, I think that's it, I think it's how important and how key repentance is in the process of being happy.

1:16:33.4 TH: Yeah, absolutely. And when both of you are talking throughout today, the thought with repentance was that the price has already been paid, we've already been redeemed, so you might as well take advantage of it, and it's infinite, it's not like you only get a piece of this pie, and once you've used it, sorry. Like it's already been done, just go and repent so that you can return to live with him again, I just... I love this discussion we've had today. And Abe when you brought up this idea of being stirred up, we're doing a lot of cooking over COVID with my kids in the kitchen and all these cooking wars, and when you said stirred up, I imagined my daughters stirring up this cake batter and what that looks like, and the effort that it takes and how you put all these ingredients in, but you stir it up to make it one big beautiful thing in the end.

1:17:18.9 TH: And so if your heart has been stirred up today, there's a reason and it's gonna be a good thing, and so when he uses that word that the children of men are stirred up unto repentance, it's a good thing to be stirred up to repentance, 'cause in the end the product will be beautiful. So thank you for pointing that out with stirred up. I love that. And remember to keep two rules, the first rule is keep the second rule. Whatever. However, you said it.

1:17:41.5 AM: The second rule is go back to rule number one.

1:17:44.2 TH: Yeah. Second rule is go back to rule one. Keep the commandments. I love that, that was good. Thanks, guys, I love you both. You're awesome.

1:17:50.8 AM: Love you. Thank you so much. I really enjoyed it. I enjoyed being on here with you again, Tyler. And...

1:17:56.5 TC: Thank you. I learned so much from you guys, I really appreciate it. It really helps me out.

1:18:00.3 TH: It's a good day.

1:18:02.4 AM: Yeah. Thank you.

1:18:02.9 TH: Man, it's a good day. The Spirit was strong.

1:18:05.3 TH: We would love to hear what your big takeaway was from this episode. Now, if you have not already joined our discussion group on Facebook, and if you're not following us on Instagram, just do it, it's so much fun. It's a great place to ask questions as you study throughout the week, then every week at the end, usually on a Sunday, we post a call for your big takeaway, so comment on the post that relates to this lesson and just let us know what you've learned and we read all of them. I just love reading people's takeaways. You can get to both our Facebook and Instagram by going to the show notes for this episode on ldsliving.com/sundayonmonday. It's not a bad idea to go there anyway, because that's where we have the links to all the references and the transcript of this whole discussion. So check it out.

1:18:40.6 TH: The Sunday on Monday study group is a Deseret Bookshelf PLUS+ original brought to you by LDS Living. It's written and hosted by me, Tammy Uzelac Hall. And today our incredible study group participants were Tyler Collett and Abe Mills, and you can find more information about these friends at ldsliving.com/sundayonmonday. Our podcast is produced by Katie Lambert and me, Tammy Uzelac Hall. It's recorded and mixed by Mix at Six Studios and our executive producer is Erin Hallstrom. Thanks for being here, we'll see you next week. And remember, please don't forget that the worth of your soul is great because you're God's favorite.

1:19:18.6 TH: Phew! That was heavy guys, I need some bacon. [chuckle]

1:19:23.2 TC: No doubt.

1:19:23.3 TH: Or some cheese.