33: “The Power of God unto Salvation” (Romans 1–6)

Tammy 0:40

I just love getting letters in the mail. Like I love it so much. And it's so much better than a bill. Am I right? Okay, now listen - today you guys, we begin our 17 week study of the Epistles or the letters written by some of the apostles but mainly Paul. We will start with Romans chapter 1-6 today and as one pastor put it, and I love this so much, if Paul saw the saints in the world today, we would all be getting a letter.

Welcome to the Sunday on Monday Study Group, a Deseret Bookshhelf Plus original brought to you by LDS Living where we take the Come, Follow Me lesson for the week and we really Dig Into the scriptures together. I'm your host, Tammy Uzelac Hall. Now if you're new to our study group, we want to make sure you know how to use this podcast, so follow the link in our description. It's going to explain how you can best use this podcast to enhance your Come, Follow Me study, just like my friends Lindsey and Liza and Susan Folger. Hi ladies. They're from Farwest and I got to meet them and they are delightful. I love you guys. Now another awesome thing about our study group is each week we're joined by two of my friends so it's always a little bit different. And today I, oh I adore these women so much and I am so, I've been after them for a while to be on with me. And this is going to be so fun. So we have Julie Peterson and Debbie Barney. Hello, ladies.

Julie 1:56

Hi Tam.

Debbie 1:57

Hi, Tammy.

Tammy 1:58

Oh, I just love you both so so so much. K, here's how I know them. They're in my ward and I have served with both of them. Mostly Debbie. Julie, have I ever served with you? I think I've just kind of followed you in all of your callings.

Julie 2:11

We did do a Girls Camp together.

Tammy 2:14

Ohhh. That's right. Okay, that was

Julie 2:16

a memorable one.

Tammy 2:19

It was. Because you had mice in your cabin, and I didn't believe you. And then they put a sticky thing under her bunk. And we woke up the next morning.,Hhw many were were trapped on the sticky thing?

Julie 2:30

There were five. Five mice. And it's the same place you're going to Girls Camp this year. So good luck Deb.

Debbie 2:37

I know. I know. I've heard that story multiple times. And I have thought about that story multiple times as we get closer to Girls Camp.

Tammy 2:45

But listen, no one camps better than this Julie Peterson right here. I would go back and just look longingly at her bed setup and just think this is heaven. Like she's sleeping on a cloud.

Julie 2:56

And did I asleep? No, no. It was a good setup, but I didn't sleep.

Debbie 3:01

No. You don't sleep at Girls Camp. And that's the real act of love right there, because you're up all night long with those girls.

Tammy 3:09

That's the labor of love,

Julie 3:10

or mice.

Tammy 3:10

Yeah. Girls Camp, labor of love right there. So and then Debbie, we've served together in Young Womens and had a joyous time. And my girls adore both of you. You've both been Young Women's Presidents for all of my daughters. How cool is that?

Debbie 3:25

Oh. That IS cool.

Julie 3:26

I got the first two, you got the last two.

Debbie 3:28

Oh, that's fun.

Tammy 3:30

It is fun for me because I couldn't think of two women who I would rather have be over my girls. You loved them so much and they feel loved by you.

Julie 3:57

I do

Debbie 3:57

Well, your girls are easy to love, Tam.

Tammy 3:41

Well, that's nice of you to say. Okay, well if you guys want to know more about Debbie and Julie, you need to go check out their bios and their pictures which are going to be in our show notes and you can find them at LDS living.com/sunday on Monday. So grab your scriptures, your scripture journalis and somehing to mark them with, and Let's Dig In to the letter to the Romans from Paul. Okay, here we go you guys. Turn to the book of Romans, we just want to go right there where it says "The Epistle of Paul the Apostle," it's kind of a tongue twister, "The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Romans." I'm going to give you a couple things you want to know and write down. So first of all, this is pretty awesome. Okay, we have the first epistle which is Romans. Now, here's what you want to know.

You guys, the letters are not in order of how they were written. They're actually in order of length, starting with the biggest letter to the smallest letter until you get to the book of Hebrews. Hebrews is at the end because no one's really sure if Paul wrote it, but he might have wrote it, but we can't be certain, so we're just going to stick it at the end. So that's what you need to know about these letters. Not in order, they're just in order of size. And I encouraged everybody when we began our story, -we began studying the book of Acts - to go into our show notes and print off the actual timeline of when Paul wrote these letters. And so you can kind of stick them in throughout the book of Acts. Romans is actually the very last letter that Paul ever wrote. So, there you go. That was really helpful for me to know when I figured that out. Now, as we study this, who is this written to? Go to Romans chapter 1, and let's look at verse 7. Here's who Paul is writing to Verse 7, and Debby, will you read verse 7 for us.

Debbie 5:23

Yeah, so this is Romans 1:7. And it says: "To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.'

Tammy 5:37

Circle a couple of words. In verse 7 he says, "To all that be in Rome," so he's writing to the people in Rome, he says, "beloved of God." So he's writing to those who are loved of God. And he's writing to those who are, circle the word 'saints, called saints. "To be" is in italics, which means it was adde by those who were translating. The actual Greek says, "called saints, Grace to you." So Paul is writing to the saints, who have already been baptized, who have received the gift of the Holy Ghost, and have been taught the doctrine of Christ. Now, what you want to know about Rome at this time is Rome is the capital of the Roman Empire. So it's saturated with worldly philosophies. And it's really a hard place to preach and live the gospel of Jesus Christ. So Paul is writing to these Roman saints to strengthen their faith, prepare them for his arrival, and clarify and defend his teachings and to promote unity between Jewish and Gentile members of the church. Because some of them are going to claim that they have more authority because they kept the old law or new law. And he's like, No, we're all equal. So that's the whole purpose of the book of Romans.

So having all that background about this book, here's my challenge to everybody from here on out for the next 17 weeks. As you read these letters that were written by Paul and several of the other apostles, I joked at the beginning that if Paul saw the church today, we would all be getting a letter. He'd be writing, trying to just help us. And we do get letters every six months - I think that's kind of what general conference is - but my challenge to all of you listeners is, when you read these specific letters. I want you to notice what stands out to you from the words of Paul. What is it that he's writing specifically to you? And I'm going to ask every guest who comes on to tell me what did they feel like Paul was writing to them? And so in the next segment, we're going to find out what Julie and Debbie have to say about that question.

Segment 2 7:27

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Tammy 7:42

All right, you two. So here's my question.: Was this a good letter, or one that you plan to shred?

Debbie 7:49

I loved the letter.

Tammy 7:50

Okay. Tell me what you loved about it Debbie. What did you think Paul was writing specifically to you?

Debbie 7:57

So I'm currently the Young Women's President. And some of the verses that really spoke to me was Romans 1:11-12.

"For I long the see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established; That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me."

Tammy 8:19

Oh,

Debbie 8:20

And I love that, because I think about my young women, and how every time they come to a lesson, I'm just hoping I leave them with the spirit in some way. And that their testimony and my testimony and their faith is helping each other build their faith. So I just loved that, that spoke to me for that reason.

Tammy 8:46

I like that so much. I just barely highlight it for the first time. I got new scriptures and I put your name next to it, Debbie. I've never even noticed that before that, and especially at the end where he says "both of you and me."

Debbie 8:58

Yeah, we cannot do it alone.

Tammy 9:00

No. Okay, that is excellent. I'm so glad that part stood out to you.

Julie 9:07

So the one that spoke to me was Romans Chapter 2, actually verse 1, where it says, "Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things".

Tammy 9:25

Ooh, that was,

Julie 9:23

Yeah, it's the old "judge not that you be not judged." And I don't know if you guys remember in our testimony meeting our good friend Liz - you know who I mean - said in her testimony, "I always,: you know, she's like "the Scripture is judge not that you be not judged, but I say j"udge not, let Liz do it."

Tammy 9:28

Yeah. (laughter)

Julie 9:44

And so I like laughed a little too hard, I almost had to be excused. My kids were embarrassed because it just struck my funny bone probably because it rang a little true for me - 'judge not let Julie do it.' But it just to me, it just reminded me of you know, he's talking about being a hypocrite and the Jews versus the Gentiles. And how often am I that one that maybe judges harshly or criticizes or judges others or condemns them when maybe I'm doing the same, exact same thing, and maybe in a different way. Was it President Uchtdorf that said, "Don't judge me because I sin differently than you." So I just think sometimes I need to be reminded of being on my high horse.

Tammy 10:26

Wow.

Debbie 10:28

Well, I just want to add on Julie's that it's so hard not to judge because sometimes our Gospel teachings, it almost like creates these parameters to judge. And so it's so hard not to, right? Like you have to really, you have to try, you have to be conscious to not judge others and to love them where they are.

Tammy 10:55

Absolutely. Both of those were so good. Okay, how cool is that, because I hadn't even noticed those really. And what's so fascinating to me is that this letter is written, and you know, as Paul's writing it he's writing to 'the saints.' So that means every part of this letter is going to touch a person differently, and things are going to strike them. And that's what's so cool, Debbie, especially when you said, when you shared verses 11-12, that you come prepared with the Spirit. And you're really hoping that the girls learn from the lesson and that they feel the Spirit and they feel loved. And I think you just perfectly articulated how Paul's feeling when he's writing this letter.

And I couldn't,I mean I've never even noticed those verses you pointed out that both you and me will be comforted. And I think that's what this episode will do for us today is that I hope many people come away feeling comforted in the knowledge of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and that they are saints. And we're going to talk about that word today, the word 'saint' and what it means to be a saint. And we get to talk about some really fundamental teachings of the gospel of Jesus Christ in just Romans 1-6. So while it is the last letter he wrote, I'm grateful it's the first letter we're studying, because I can't think of a better foundation for the rest of the letters. So in the next segment, we are going to jump into then, what he wanted the saints to know and what He wants us to know today.

Segment 3 12:13

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Tammy 12:30

Okay, this is kind of fun. What were your last names growing up - your maiden names? I don't even know if I know this.

Debbie 12:36

My maiden name is Sorensen.

Julie 12:38

And mine is Black, like the color.

Tammy 12:40

Okay. So I want to know, mine's Uzelac, I kept that one. And I want to know from this, did your guys's last name come with expectations growing up?

Julie 12:50

Huge.

Tammy 12:52

Oh. Huge. Julie tell me about it.

Julie 12:54

Yeah, I came from a well-known family in the community who towed the line. So there was a lot of expectation to be, to be the good girl.

Tammy 13:06

Okay. Oh, that's powerful. What about you Debbie?

Debbie 13:10

Um, no. I don't, I don't, I did, I never felt expectation because of my last name. I felt expectation in the sense that I knew my parents expected me to make good choices in life. But I didn't feel like I was ever trained to measure up to someone else or to the idea of our family.

Tammy 13:43

Well, I wanted us to be thinking about it. And I actually kind of giggled when I was writing this because I wrote down my last name Uzelac. I said, you know, like Uzelac. When people heard that were probably like, "you owe me money." Which is not true. Just kidding, dad, cousins who are listening, but you kind of know it's true. I think it's interesting because when we go into these scriptures, in Romans chapter 1, there's actually a name that we all go by that does carry weight. And so Julie it's interesting that your name was the expectation that you had to be good, that there was a lot. Because I think that's the implication of this next name. So let's look at this name. We're gonna go to Romans 1:6. And Julie, will you read verse 6 for us.

Julie 14:24

"Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:"

Tammy 14:29

Okay, highlight that, "among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ." Now, here's two different ways that it's interpreted. The NIV says, "and you also are among those Gentiles who are called to belong to Jesus Christ." I like the ESV including "you who are called to belong to Jesus Christ." That, I like that wording, that verse is saying, 'I'm writing this letter to those of you who are called to belong to Jesus Christ.' Just now, knowing that that's the name you take upon yourself, knowing that you belong to Jesus Christ, is there an expectation with that?

Debbie 15:09

Yes.

Tammy 15:10

Tell me about that, Debbie.

Debbie 15:12

I just, and I don't I don't think this is a negative thing, I think it's a positive thing. But I feel like a responsibility to love everyone, make them feel loved when they're with me, and to be an example of the Savior through my behavior.

Tammy 15:39

Beautifully spoken.

Debbie 15:39

How else do people get to know Christ If it's not through other people who know Christ?

Tammy 15:45

Oh, absolutely.

Julie 15:47

So good. And that makes me think of, I have to say growing up as a Black and having that expectation to do good wasn't a negative thing. For me, it was actually a positive thing, because I wanted to bring honor to their name and to our family, because of their example of goodness. And so I'd say the same about the Savior, where I represent Him, I want, I want to represent Him in the best way possible. I want to be good and show His love. So yeah.

Tammy 16:16

Yeah. Ooh, and I was thinking too, because you said the word 'honor.' And that's what struck me, Julie, I want to bring honor to Him. I like that,for both of you. And you're right. How else will people learn about Jesus Christ if it's not through our own, through the way we act and the way we love? And so that's what Paul's saying here. He's saying you are, you belong to Jesus Christ. There's an expectation with that. And I like the word 'called.' If you look back at the verse 7 he says, "called to be saints." The word 'called' right here in Greek, it's not an external call, it's an internal, effectual call. Like, it means you're going to conform to the will of Him who calls you. So I think there's so much power in that word. "You are called Jesus Christ" is exactly what both of you explained right here. And so according to Paul, those of us who are called of Jesus Christ, or who belong to Jesus Christ, we have an added responsibility. And one of the ways we bring honor to Him is through this: Look at verses 16 and 17. And Julie, will you read those for us.

Julie 17:22

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith."

Tammy 17:39

Thank you. Now what, right out of the gates when you read 16, tell me how you felt. "For I'm not ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ."

Julie 17:46

Kind of got emotional, honestly, I love that. That, and he teaches more about this as he goes, but just not being ashamed of testifying of Him and,

Debbie 17:58

You guys know this about me, I cry all the time. And so I'll probably cry right now. As many of us right now, when you have loved ones who have left the church, and sometimes they want to talk to you about that, and you and you want to be able to talk to them about that, you know. But you start to question everything, you know, everything you believe, and you start to feel, sometimes you can feel like, should I be embarrassed about this? Should I feel ashamed? And so having had family members and friends, leave the church, and then going through these spiritual confirmations of my own where I knew the church was for me. And I knew that the gospel was for me, has made me not ashamed of the gospel, and has made me think this is how I want to live my life. And you can live your life the way you want, but this is how I want to live my life. And so those really spoke to me because I just relate to it so much. Like I am not ashamed that this is how I'm choosing to live my life at all, even if some of the people around me have changed the way they feel about it.

Tammy 19:25

Debbie, I'm so thankful that you were willing to speak about that, because all three of us are in that space. I feel like that's something that connects us. And I thought of you two, with this verse specifically, because I was going to ask you like, how do you do this? How do you live your life where you're not ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ? It's new for me, with people that I love who are leaving the church, and it's a hard space to be in. I don't, I don't know how to navigate that. I'm not good at it because it's a huge part of my life. It's all I want to ever talk about. And I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. It's just weird, like how have you both been able to navigate life and not be ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ with your loved ones?

Debbie 20:08

Well it's not always easy and, but it does for me, in my case, it has gotten easier because, well, because of hope and grace. And but mostly I just had such a spiritual moment on my own, where I realized the Gospel's for me and if I didn't have it in my life, I would regret it. And so it's easy to just keep choosing the gospel and faith and my testimony, because I just know that's what I'm supposed to do. And I get to love everyone around me where they are, even though we may think differently. So I guess part of it is I respect their opinion and because of that, they in return respect mine.

Julie 21:09

Yeah, I would agree with that. I'm very blessed because the person closest to me who's stepped away is very respectful. He's been so good about understanding that this is, this is important to me and I know that things are important to him. And we kind of have a mutual respect of being able to share things that are important in personal. We've tried to maintain the principle of 'no empty chairs,' not only not in heaven, but in our home and in our lives. And so we include, whether you're going to church or not, you're a part of our family, and we hold our family close together. And I'm lucky that my son who stepped away is is very respectful and very interested in our lives as we are him. It's like, I think about it when you make a new recipe and you want someone to try it, or you try a new restaurant or hear a new song. And it's like, when I'm excited about something, I share it, I share it, something about the gospel and He's respectful of that. And so I think when, like Debbie said, when you show respect both ways, it's, it helps. And I think we've been lucky to have that.

Tammy 22:23

Yeah. Wow. Thank you. Well, I look back at 17, because I was, I really like the Joseph Smith translation. It says "For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith,." But look down at the footnote for 17 b. The Joseph Smith translation, instead of "from faith to faith," it says, "Through faith on His name, as it is written, the just shall live by faith." That, I think, and you both can speak to this, but how has faith through His name helped you to stay when it got hard? Debbie, you mentioned like it was difficult, maybe you start to question everything you've ever believed. What role did face play in that?

Debbie 23:03

Faith played a massive role in it. And something that I'm learning as I get older, is that it was difficult and it was causing me to, you know, have some doubts and some concerns and some questions. And I have realized that my doubts and my concerns and my questions and faith, live in the same place. That I didn't have the knowledge, I didn't know for sure. And I know, in Alma 32, it says something that once you have the knowledge, your faith is dormant. And I read that last year, and it just clicked for me that faith and doubt and questions can kind of live in the same space. So even when I was unsure of, 'Okay. All these people around me have left the church and they have all these reasons for leaving, you know, what are my, should I just agree with them? you know. Because I've, I kind of have spent my whole life just agreeing with my loved ones' religious viewpoints, you know, your parents and everything.

And I had to have faith, even though I had some doubts and concerns, I had to have faith and then I had to work through that faith. I had to really take it to the Lord and say, Help me here. I need Your guidance, and I cannot do this without You. And it took a while but I received that spiritual confirmation that this is where I belong. This is what I believe and this is what I should believe. So,

Tammy 25:04

Thank you, Debbie.

Julie 25:05

And faith for me, I think is trust. I've had to define it, it's like trust. I trust God, I have confidence in God that it will work out. It might not be how I think or how I want or on my own timeline, but faith that and trust that it will be okay.

Tammy 25:23

Yeah. Oh, and what you were saying, Julie, if you go back to Romans 1:17, let's just circle the word 'just'. It says "The just shall live by faith." The word just in Greek is actually "righteous." The righteous shall live by faith. Thank you, both of you for your thoughts on faith. And faith is a really important foundation to his letters; right out of the gates he's talking to us about how we are saints and we are not ashamed and the role that faith plays on that through faith on His name. And so with faith on His name, we are promised help, and we're going to discuss what that help is in the next segment.

Segment 4 25:58

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Tammy 26:14

All right, so I'm going to start out this whole segment by telling everybody this, so listen very carefully. In the past April General Conference, President Nelson's talk on Peacemakers, he said this. "At some point, you may be thinking that this message would really help someone you know." All right, now, guilty as charged, raise your hand if you've ever done that in a conference talk.

Julie 26:34

Umm hmm.

Debbie 26:35

Many times.

Tammy 26:36

Totally, regularly,

Debbie 26:37

Sure hopoe so and so's listening to this.

Tammy 26:39

Totally. I do that more often than not. So here's what I want you to do. Repeat after me and say, "This message is for me."

Debbie, Julie 26:48

This message is just for me.

Tammy 26:51

Okay. And everyone driving, if you're listening, or wherever you are, just breathe that in: "This message is for me." Resist the temptation to think that we are talking about anybody else but you. And also take a deep breath, because it's about to get uncomfortable, which is good. Because listen, no one comfortable ever changes. So knowing that then, go with me into Romans chapter 1 and we're going to start in verse 26. Now, when you read verses 26-32, you are going to be inclined to think of everybody in the world who is guilty of doing all of these things. In fact, resist the temptation to even have a lesson on the specifics of 26-32. And it's going to be hard. You're gonna want to now stand on a soapbox and say feelings and beliefs.

What you need to understand about Paul's message is, Paul starts listing every kind of sin possible, and it's uncomfortable, and you're not going to like it, and you're going to know a lot of people who do these things. Now, here's what you want to know: chapters were never originally in Scripture. Later on, they came in and divided things into chapters. So this is a letter that Paul's writing. I want everybody to just X out where it says "Chapter 2." Cross out Chapter 2 right now in your scriptures, because you read all these sins that Paul lists. And by the way, I highly recommend reading it in Greek. If you can go into 'Bible Hub' and actually look up the Greek words, it's going to change your viewpoint, specifically on verses 26 and 27. So, he lists all the sins and they're awful and they're horrible.

And you just think like, Ugh. Back-biters, haters of God, being filled with wickedness. All of this stuff, and you're quick, and then it ends - Romans chapter 1 ends with all these sins, but that's not how it ends, you guys. There's no ending there. Paul's writing this letter listing all the sins and then he says, "Therefore," in Romans 2:1, highlight "Therefore," because it's not therefore. The actual translation of Greek is "on which account." Now listen. He lists all the sins and then he says, "On which account thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemning myself; for thou that judgest doest the same things." Now Julie, that your verse. So what's Paul's message to us? If he's going to list all these sins and then give us right out of the gates: "On which account you don't get to judge? What's he telling us?

Judge not that you be not judged?

Yes, I love it. In fact, I mean, if you want to write "Judge not but let Julie do it," you could probably do that.

Julie 29:31

Yeah, you're welcome to do that.

Tammy 29:32

Just not but let me do it.

Julie 29:33

Happy to do that for ya.

Tammy 29:34

Yes. He's teaching us like, you don't get to judge because I'm calling all of you out. You all are guilty of these sins. And then he, I just love verse 2. Debbie, can you read verse 2 for us.

Debbie 29:46

Yeah, verse 2 says, "But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things."

Tammy 29:54

Oh. Now how does that affect judgment day, knowing that it will be God, a judge of truth?

Debbie 30:02

Well, I feel like we're so good at deceiving ourselves.

Tammy 30:07

Talk to me about that.

Debbie 30:09

Well, "This conference talk isn't for me, it's for everyone else. I'm doing, I'm doing really good, you know, or "I'm not a hypocrite, I don't judge people." You know, we're, we're so good at kind of not being self aware, really. And so when he says, "the judgment of God is according to truth," you know, I think God knows the truth about us, you know. He knows if we're trying or not trying.

Tammy 30:44

Yes.

Julie 30:46

I always think too, am I trying to please God, or please man?, which is more important, obviously, to please God. totally.

Tammy 30:52

Oh, totally. Well, and the whole point Paul's trying to say, help us understand is, 'Listen, I'm not writing this so you can debate about the sins, I'm writing the sins so that you can no longer debate about judgment. That's why I have included all this, it's so that we can be very clear. The only person who gets to judge is God.' In fact, this is one of my all-time favorite quotes about judgment day, and it's found in "Jesus the Christ." And it's found in the notes. So you're reading along in "Jesus the Christ", and if you don't read the notes, you're missing out because they are phenomenal. And I just want to share this quote with you. It is found in section 3, chapter 3, actually, of "Jesus, the Christ" in the note section, and it's note #2. And here is what is said about judgment day. So I'm just going to read it because I just love it.

"In the judgment with which we shall be judged, all the conditions and circumstances of our lives shall be considered: the inborn tendencies due to heredity, the effect of environment whether conducive to good or evil, the wholesome teachings of youth or the absence of good instruction. These and all other contributory elements must be taken into account in the rendering of a just verdict as to the soul's guilt or innocence. Nevertheless, the Divine Wisdom makes plain, what will be the result with given conditions operating on known natures and dispositions of men, while every individual is free to choose good or evil, within the limits of the many conditions existing and operative."

Julie 32:20

Huh, so good. I'm grateful that that He will be the judge, and not me.

Tammy 32:20

And that He'll take everything into account.

Julie 32:34

And it will be just.

Tammy 32:36

Oh,

Debbie 32:36

I love the very last part that says, "while every individual is free to choose good or evil within the limits of the many conditions existing and operative,"

Tammy 32:48

Why?

Debbie 32:49

Well, because our circumstances are all different, you know. Back to, to even faith, it's easy for me to choose fiaith. That is like how it's just how my life has been. It's easy to choose faith for me. But it may not be easy for some people that choose faith. Their life circumstances might make it harder for them to choose faith.

Tammy 33:15

You're absolutely right.

Julie 33:16

Totally agree.

Tammy 33:17

Yes. Okay. So join me then let's do this. We're gonna go through Romans, and we're just gonna mark a couple other verses that support this idea that you don't get to judge. So go with me now to Romans chapter 2. And we're going to look at verse 6 and 7. And it says, "Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient ctent continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life:" I like that "continuance and well doing." That to me says staying on the covenant path, you're just doing your best. Not ging to be easty.

Debbie 33:48

You're just trying.

Tammy 33:49

Yeah, you're just trying. Absolutely. And then verse 11, highlight that. Debbie read that for us.

Debbie 33:55

Okay, Romans 2:11." For there is no respect of persons with God."

Tammy 34:02

Amen. Right there. And Paul's teaching this in continance and saying, here's all the sins you all are committing and you don't get to judge. And by the way, God doesn't respect anybody. He loves you all. And then we have right here, then we're gonna go to Romans 3:9 and 10. Julie read that for us.

Julie 34:20

Romans 3:9 and 10. "What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; And it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:"

Tammy 34:36

Ooh. What do you think about that, Julie?

Julie 34:39

Well, I think that can be taken as Paul was a "Debbie Downer." But

Debbie 34:43

I hate that term. I mean, not "Debbie Downer",

Julie 34:46

A Julie Downer? But we're all sinners, right? We all, there's none of us are perfect. And so I think he's, what he's teaching is just that nobody's going to be perfect without Christ, without the atonement of our Savior. Yeah,

Tammy 35:01

Yes. Okay, go with me now to Romans 4:16. And Julie read that for us.

Julie 35:07

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end of the promise might be sure to all the seed: not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,"

Tammy 35:21

Okay, now let's go down to the footnote because it's going to help us make so much more sense of this verse. 16 a footnote, Julie read that for us.

Julie 35:27

"Therefore, ye are all justified of faith and works, through grace, to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed: not to them only who are of the law, but to them also who are of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all."

Tammy 35:44

Now, there's a word in there that gives us hope. There's a word in there that is the help that we need. "As we're in the space of faith and as we're trying to repent, what is it that is going to give us the help we neDo either of you know what word it is?

Debbie 35:58

Grace?

Tammy 35:59

Yes, highlight the word 'grace.' During a break, Julie said she really appreciated verse 16. And I want to know why now.

Julie 36:06

Well, I love the example of Abraham, Abraham and Sarah, who, you know, were told, promised that they would, that they would have a child. And they were like, what, 52 and 62 years old at the time. And seemed impossible, and then didn't have a son until they were like 90 and 100. And I think, Wow, that is serious faith, that is trust in the Lord and having that confidence that that He, you know. And they didn't, Abraham didn't doubt. He believed and knew that that would come to pass. That's some serious faith at 100 years old.

Tammy 36:45

Well, and Julie read verse 18, then. This really struck me in light of what you've just said.

Julie 36:50

Romans 4:18. "Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be."

Tammy 37:01

I circled the word 'might.' He might become father to many nations, like he wasn't sure. That's where faith lives in that word. Like he might, it might happen, I really hope. Oh, it's such a good story, the Abraham Sarah story.

Debbie 37:14

I loved in 18 where it says, "Who against hope believed in hope." So when they felt like there wasn't hope, hope was against them, they still chose - and I use the word 'choose' purposely - still chose hope. Because it's a choice. It's always a choice.

Tammy 37:36

You're right. it is a choice. Absolutely. Wow, Debbie, I didn't even notice that part of the verse. Hold please, while I underline that, that is awesome. Because they did choose to believe. And I'm thinking like, in my mind, many of us are in this space. Like, some of us have to wake up every day and choose to believe and stay hoping, because we know. And I just, I just like that. So thank you. Thanks for sharing that.

Well, okay, then, before we can get to hope, though, because this is so cool, Debbie. I'm so grateful you brought this up. The way it works is you have faith, grace, and hope. That's usually the line, the order these things, these go. And we've talked about faith, and so right here, let's take this minute to talk about grace. Because by to understanding grace, it can then lead us into this idea of choosing hope. Debbie, I love that you said that. So let's look at a couple of things about grace. And in the shownotes, you all can go there, I have really great bullets with scriptures that back up this doctrine of grace. I would recommend going and checking out the show notes and also cross referencing all of the scriptures to grace. We're going to go to Romans 5:1 and 2, and then we're going to talk about grace. Here we go. This is our setup for grace. In Romans 5:1 and 2 it says, "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God." Okay, so let's talk about grace. Hit it, Debbie.

Debbie 39:14

"Grace is the Divine help or strength extended to us through the atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ."

Julie 39:20

"Through the grace of Jesus Christ, all will be resurrected and will live forever. "

Tammy 39:25

"Because of personal choices, everyone also experiences the effects of sin. These effects are called spiritual death. No one can return to the presence of God without Divine grace. Through the atonement, we all can be forgiven of our sins, we can become clean before God."

Debbie 39:43

"To receive grace, we must obey the gospel of Jesus Christ, which includes having faith in Him, repenting of our sins, being baptized, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, and trying to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ for the rest of our lives."

Julie 39:59

"The Lord promises that if we humble ourselves before Him and have faith in Him, His grace will help us overcome all our personal weaknesses."

Tammy 40:08

Now, you can read about this and study it in the Gospel Topics on the LDS Church's website. But I want to know from both of you, what is grace to you? or what have you experienced it in your life?

Julie 40:21

I mean, I did look it up when I was studying and so maybe this comes from this. But I think of it as compassion, mercy, having charity. But I think sometimes I think of it as just a gift at the end of the road, you know. I'm going to do all that I can do it says in Second Nephi, like I, after I do all that I can do, then the grace of God will kick in. But as I studied it, I don't think that's true. I think the grace of God is there the whole time. And without that, we wouldn't be able to make it back. That that's through the Atonement of Jesus Christ we are given grace, which helps us along the way. So as well I think of it as compassion and mercy, I also think of it as help and strength through the grace of Jesus Christ.

Tammy 41:04

Oh, absolutely. Help and strength. I'm writing that down. What about you, Debbie?

Debbie 41:08

Yeah, I think of it as help too. I know a lot of people teach grace by saying, 'Oh, you know, you do this much work and God will fill in the rest, and you will make it to heaven,' you know. Or, 'God will fill in the rest, whatever.' And I don't want that to be like an excuse for me to not try. You know, I still, I need to be putting in the work. And so it's me putting in the work and God carrying me when I'm falling just a little short. But it's not me being lazy about it, you know. I'm not just assuming the grace of God is going to save me on everything. I feel like I have to work for it.

Tammy 41:51

Yeah. Well, and I think sometimes, I appreciate both of you and what you said, because when I consider Grace, I'm reminded of my daughter, my youngest, who you both know. She's so fun. And she's my sportiest kid. And I remember when she was seven, and I was finally able to take - because you as you both know, we do 'Mom camp, which you are always welcome to join us. I know you won't, Julie, but

Julie 42:17

I hear that word 'camp' in there that gets me. I want to be with the moms and the kids. I just don't want to camp.

Debbie 42:23

A Mom's Spa day.

Tammy 42:24

Just come up for a day.

Julie 42:26

I could do daycamp.

Tammy 42:27

Come up for Day camp. bring your boys. I remember when she was finally old enough to go on a hike. And I use that term loosely, because it was really a walk around Silver Lake, which is a boardwalk. It's flat. And she was seven years old and I was so excited because she loves to do outdoors things. And we start on this trail on this path, right? We're walking it; four minutes in, she's like, "My legs hurt. I'm tired. How long is this gonna be?" And I was like, Kid, come on, we just barely started. She didn't want to walk. She sat down on that path and just was like, I'm tired. I don't want to do this. So I stood there with her. I'm like, all right. She got out her trail mix and water, she already needed that. I mean, we just ate breakfast, mind you, but we need snacks now. She's seven, and I'm waiting with her. And then she gets up when she's ready. And we keep walking on the path together. And we're five more minutes, maybe four, she sits down again, her legs are tired. This is hard, I didn't want to do this. She eats more snacks, drinks more water. We did that the entire path, all the way around that lake.

And every time I think of that story, it reminds me of the Covenant Path and grace. Because I feel like we're on that covenant path. And we reach points where we're tired. And we don't want to walk anymore. And we maybe take a little break. And I just think of Heavenly Father standing there with me on that trail going, Okay. Do you need some snacks? Go ahead. I'll wait.

I think that's grace, where we don't have to wait for His help at the end of the path. Like you said, Julie, He will give it to us throughout our whole experience. And Debbie, I like how you said as long as I'm trying. Like I knew my Sophia was going to try. I also knew it was gonna take us a lot longer to do that trail than I had anticipated. But we finished the path. And when we finally were done, we were high-fiving each other, we did it, but there were a lot of stops along the way. And I think sometimes we forget to allow for us to have stops along the way. Like it's okay. And those stops are where grace comes. That's where grace lives, where He's like, All right, you want some trail mix? In fact, I almost wonder if He's like, how about some bread, the Bread of life? And how about some water, the Living water? And that's what gets us back up to walk for a couple more minutes, and then we sit back down, right?

Julie 44:37

And she didn't give up. I don't know if you're gonna reference this, so I love the talk from Brad Wilcox on grace that we're all familiar with. And one of the things that I wrote down as I was studying for this was it says, "Too many are giving up on the church because they are tired of constantly feeling like they are falling short. They have tried in the past but they always feel like they are not good enough. They don't understand grace. There should never be two options - perfection or giving up"

Tammy 45:04

Oh, yeah.

Julie 45:05

And so I think that like that, giving them that grace, of that help, the mercy of the Lord is important.

Tammy 45:13

So important.

Debbie 45:13

So as you're talking about that, we talked about how grace is like strength from our Savior and from Heavenly Father. It takes me back to what we talked about earlier, when we were talking about faith and our testimonies and building our testimonies. And there's times in our life where sometimes our testimonies need a break. Sometimes, I don't know if this is how your testimonies have been, but mine have been built like stepping stones almost. And like a small one in the front, when I was young, and just believed everything everyone told me. And it was so perfect and beautiful and so easy to accept. And then your brain starts to develop, and you start having more more questions. And I view all of that as good, but you need like a moment almost to like digest some of that stuff before your testimony steps up to the next level.

Tammy 46:13

Yeah.

Debbie 46:14

And I feel like, in my life, God gave me grace in those moments and was like, It's fine if you need a minute. Take a minute, take a minute to sort this out and have faith. And then we'll take the next step up together.

Tammy 46:34

Yeah. Because Debbie, even like you said, even in digestion you're still moving. Like your body is still working. And so even in those moments, where you sit, yeah, I absolutely think you're being re-energized through grace. I really like the definition of grace. If you go into the Gospel Topics in your gospel app, and you look up words, you can look up the word grace. And it says right here that "Grace is the ability to receive strength and assistance to do good works, that you otherwise would not be able to do if you were left to your own means." Like, that's grace. That's the help you were talking about Julie, the strength or, or given the ability to just sit with what you're learning, Debbie, and digest it.

Debbie 47:15

Yep.

Tammy 47:16

And then the ability to get right back up and keep on walking. So, there is so much power in grace. You know, Emily Belle Freeman has done a phenomenal job talking about grace, she's got three books on it and I love them. And I like how she always says that grace is that "He meets you where you are." That's her definition of grace. And I've heard many people reference that. And I think that's true, on that path, walking around Silver Lake which we probably thought of in the pre-existence was gonna be real real easy. Turns out - super hard, a lot harder than we thought. My daughter - I thought it'd be real easy for us to do. Apparently it's a really difficult hike, and we do it every year as a reminder to me like, and let grace come back in. We're all doing this together. So thank you for both of your thoughts on this. Okay, so

Julie 47:57

Just I do love this: Elder Bruce Haven said, "The Savior's gift of grace is to us is not necessarily limited in time to after all we can do. We may receive His grace before, during, and after the time when we expend our own efforts." So I think it's the same concept.

Tammy 48:13

Amen. So good.

Debbie 48:16

I feel like that rings so true for me as the Young Women's President right now. I need that grace 24/7.

Tammy 48:27

And we, and don't we, we all do. I mean, there's not a single one of us listening to this that doesn't pray and hope for more grace. If that's all you can pray for tonight? Ask for it. Because I think we've kind of skewed the way we think of grace - I need help, a lot of it. So,

Julie 48:43

And giving that grace to ourselves and to others. You know, when they say, Oh, give her some grace, she's going through a hard time. But it's like, yes. But our Savior can give us that grace all the time.

Tammy 48:55

Yes, the help that we need. So. Wow, thank you. So we have this idea of faith and grace. Now, in the next segment, I am so excited about the next discussion because two scholars believe that there's a verse of Scripture, we're going to read next, in connection with faith and grace. And they said this, "It's one of the most dynamic and powerful truths in the Gospel." And so I can't wait to find out what my guests have to say about

Segment 5 49:19

.....

Tammy 49:27

All right, you two. So I sent that ahead of time for you guys to read Romans 5:3 and 4. And then I told you that scholars believe it's one of the most dynamic and powerful truths in the gospel. So let's read those two verses and then I want to know your thoughts on that. Romans 5:3 and 4, and Debbie, will you read that for us.

Debbie 49:46

Yep. Romans 5:3 and 4. "Not only so but we glory in tribulations also knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope.

Tammy 50:03

Perfect. Thank you. All right, why would someone call that the most dynamic and powerful truth of the gospel?

Julie 50:10

Well, I was first concerned because I'm not sure I do glory in tribulation. I was like, Oh,

Tammy 50:15

Right?

Julie 50:16

I glory in the growth I experience from tribulation. But I don't know if I can say I experience the glory. And I like yeah, the patience.

Debbie 50:25

Well, I just feel like none of us are gonna go throughout - through life without tribulation. And like Julie said, No. Glory in the tribulation isn't exactly accurate. But the growth that comes from tribulation and the way it frames our testimonies and our beliefs can just be so powerful, that you find so much gratitude for it on the other end.

Tammy 50:26

I mean, thinking through your vast life of experiences, growth, challenges, tribulation, is there something that comes to mind where this, these two verses were true? That your tribulation did work patience and experience and hope? That you'd be willing to share.

Julie 51:19

Yeah. Okay, so I love Romans 5:5. "And hope maketh not ashamed; because of the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given." And this week as we have been studying about this and talking about hope, I've thought about the word hope, and what an important word that is in my life. I'm a breast cancer survivor and as you know there's that pink ribbon that they use as the symbol for breast cancer. And then it often says 'hope' with it. And so that kind of became a theme for me. I took the line from the hymn "We Thank Thee,O God for a Prophet" actually. But there's a line in there that says "hope smiling brightly." And so that kind of became my theme through my treatments was to have hope smiling brightly, to have this expectation. But it's been through breast cancer and those kinds of things.

But also, as I lost both my parents, our - as I have a son who's gay - and I am hoping for more light and understanding and hoping for change at times. And I just think it's such a great word to, because the opposite of hope is despair. And so for me to have that hope, is what's kept me going. It's what's kept, you know, I have faith. Faith in the Lord is trusting Him that it'll all work out, no matter how it looks. I have trust that it will, I have confidence that it will. Hope, I think is that expectation of wanting and knowing, you know, knowing I'll receive more light and knowledge. And then I think grace brings comfort and mercy through Jesus Christ. So hope keeps me going.

Tammy 52:58

Well, and Julie, when you were going through your experience with breast cancer, that was a for sure tribulation. Did you learn patience and experience?

Julie 53:06

Oh, yeah. Big time.

Tammy 53:09

What did it teach you?

Julie 53:10

That there's a light at the end of the tunnel. Patience was huge, just because you just have to endure treatments. And you just don't know, right? You don't, you, so you have to have hope that there will be better things down the road. And because the treatments cause so much limitation that you couldn't, I mean, you just had to be patiently, you had to patiently endure until you'd get better. And as each treatment came, you realize it gave you more and more hope because you knew that it would get better. Yes, this is miserable for a week. Okay, maybe 10 days, but it does get better. And I think that's true in our lives too, right. There're sometimes we have to endure the tribulation but better days are to come.

Tammy 53:51

Wow. Thank you, Julie. Debbie, how have your tribulations taught you patience and experience and hope?

Debbie 53:59

Well, I don't know that it's possible to have a tribulation without patience, because nobody wants to be in the middle of that ever. Nobody wants to be in the middle of something hard. We all really just want life to be on a silver platter at all times, you know,

Tammy 54:18

Right. It'd be real nice.

Debbie 54:19

Yeah, but it's not. And so any tribulation is going to teach us patience. Especially like Julie said, one that causes limitations on your abilities. Or for me, I had a hard time getting pregnant. And that was a really hard tribulation for me. And it taught me a ton of patience because, you know, you can't just always get pregnant anytime you want to. You're on someone else's timeline. So that taught me patience. And then it taught me so much empathy for other people who had struggled. That even though I was sympathetic before, I just understood it in a new way. And kind of when you have when you have those experiences that teach you empathy, I think it helps you become more Christ-like, because empathy for people is real love. And the Savior is real love.

Tammy 55:25

I've never considered that word experienced the way you just did, that the experience is the empathy. And isn't that what we're all about here? We're right here to help each other out. Like when it's gives you experience, it's not, like I guess in my mind I always imagined it gives you experience like a college degree or job training. Like now you're really, you're a really good plumber because you went through the training. So you're really good at tribulations because you've gone through the tribulations, which might be true for a lot of people. And the experience, though, is the ability to then help other people with it, without charging it like for free. Like my experience, now I understand. The empathy, I just connected that. Thank you, Debbie. And the patience. That is faith right there.

And Julie, you taught me that, sitting there with all those treatments - patient, patiently waiting. And that's where faith lives, like how's this gonna turn out? I love this quote; I thought this was really clever. So Elder Bradley D. Foster in 2014, his Conference talk on "Trials and Tribulations," he said he learned a lot from a book titled "Why Did This Happen to Me?" It's by Ray Pritchard, and here's his quote. And Debbie will you read this for us.

Debbie 56:36

Yep. "Sometimes we will face things for which there is no earthly explanation. In those moments, we need to erect a sign that says, "Quiet, God at work." Meanwhile, hold on Child of God, keep believing. Don't quit, don't give up. Let God do His work in you. The greatest tragedy is to miss what God wants to teach us through our troubles."

Tammy 57:02

Can we just,,,,is that the greatest quote ever? I'm gonna make a sign that says "Quiet, God at work." And uh, I'll put it on the back of my car. I'm gonna put it around my neck when people meet me. Like,

Julie 57:17

Well, and the thing that struck me, Tammy, is the line that says "The greatest tragedy is to miss what God wants to teach us through His troubles." And years ago, you and I were having lunch and you asked me a question that has stuck with me. And I think of it all the time. And you said, "How did breast cancer change you? How are you different now?" And I think at that point, it was pretty soon after I thought, I'm like, I'm just barely getting on my feet. Like I haven't even stopped to think about that. But I've thought about it so many times since then. And have been prayerful in hoping that it changed me for the better, that it made me more empathetic, that it made me more kind, more patient, more reliant on the Lord, and just a different perspective. So we don't want to miss it. That would be a tragedy if we missed what we were supposed to learn in that trial.

Tammy 58:09

Absolutely

Debbie 58:10

That's the line that stuck out to me too, because we get to choose how we are going to deal with our trials and tribulations. And we can choose to have hope because of them or, like you said, Julie, despair.

Tammy 58:32

And hope usually tends to turn out better. And despair's - it's easy. It's the easy go-to. Like, oh, I've done a lot of despair. But hope - hope takes work. And I like how you said to choose hope, Debbie. And so then let's do this in the next segment. Let's just talk about hope because it's the happiest part of this whole conversation. And so we'll do that next.

Segment 6 58:54

.....

Tammy 59:09

Okay, so I have this to show you guys, because years ago when I was going through a very difficult time, a particular time, my friend Amy sent this to me and some of you 1980s Book Club ladies are going to love this. It's a picture of a kitten holding on, and at the bottom it says "Hang In There." Did you have that on your wall? The cat holding on, "Hang in there!"

Julie 59:37

It mght have been on my college dorm room wall.

Debbie 59:39

Yeah

Tammy 59:40

For sure. Well, who of us didn't want that poster from the book club. Mom, can I please have the cat "hang in there"? I laughed so hard when she sent that to me because I was like, what? Like a little bit of a paw hanging on there. And sometimes I feel like that is where I'm at, like I'm just barely hanging on. And so if we go into Romans 5:5, and Julie you beautifully read this. Five says, Julie read it again for us.

Julie 1:00:03

"And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us."

Tammy 1:00:10

Let's cross reference that. Put Romans 8:24 and 25. And let's turn there and read about hope in Romans 8:24 and 25. For those of us in tribulations, here's an important role that hope will play. And Debbie, can you read that for us, please.

Debbie 1:00:33

"We are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it."

Tammy 1:00:48

I mean, is that powerful? So talk to me about hope. Julie, you taught me one of the most profound lessons on hope that I'll never forget this. We met up on the sidewalk, we were walking one morning, and we both crossed paths at the same time. And we had talked a ton. And you you mentioned this earlier about your son who is gay, and you how you were staying in the church and you weren't leaving. And then you said this to me. "The one thing I've learned is that it's okay to hope." And that just hit my heart like a ton of bricks. You're like, I don't want to change things and I'm not going to, and I'm going to stay steady, and it's okay to hope. Do you remember that day?

Julie 1:01:26

Yeah.

Tammy 1:01:26

How have you learned that it's okay to hope and what? Talk to me about hope in your lives.

Julie 1:01:33

And I'll, I guess, to be clear, it's not, and I think you did say this, but I'm not hoping he'll change. I don't think he's going to change.

Tammy 1:01:41

Right.

Julie 1:01:41

Hope that there'll be more answers.

Yes

Hope that there'll be more understanding. But also have faith and trust, that it will all work out. Like I know, I know Heavenly Father has a plan for him, for me, for our family, and it's going to be okay. Because I always think of, Proverbs talks about hope a ton. And one of, a couple of the lines are like. "Hope of the righteous shall be gladness." And so I feel like if hope gives me that gladness, that happiness, or it says "Hope deferred maketh the heart sick." And I think if I don't have hope then my heart is sick. I have to have hope. Not only for him, for all my kids and for me and for our family that hope will prevail, that we will have perfect brightness of hope. I was thinking of all the things, like Hope of Israel, Hope in Christ, all of those. There's so many great references to the word hope.

Tammy 1:02:35

Can you give us the reference for the one about 'hope deferred?'

Julie 1:02:38

Proverbs 13:12.

Tammy 1:02:40

That was so good. Yeah, your heart would be sick without hope. Hope keeps you moving. In Romans 8, even if you can't see hope, you're not supposed to. That's what makes it hopeful, like, hoping for the best. So one of the things I asked my guests to do was to read a talk by sister Chieko Okazaki from 1996. How old were you then? Debbie, weren't you in elementary school?

Debbie 1:03:06

Yeah. I was 6. Wait. 1996? No, I was 16.

Julie 1:03:09

Oh, that makes me feel really old.

Debbie 1:03:10

No, I was 16.

Tammy 1:03:10

Oh, phew!

Julie 1:03:11

Okay, I feel a little bit better.

Tammy 1:03:12

I just graduated from college. I love Sister Okazaki. And this talk "Raised in Hope," it, I mean, tell me what your thoughts were after you guys, you were telling me a little bit about what you thought. Did you like this talk?

Julie 1:03:25

Yeah, it was awesome.

Debbie 1:03:27

Well, I just said to my husband, "I loved this talk so much, and it doesn't feel like it came from the 90s." (laughter)

Tammy 1:03:36

It's so applicable today, isn't it?

Debbie 1:03:38

Yes.

Tammy 1:03:39

Okay. So tell me. (I had them read this talk and then I wanted them to come and share.) What are some of the favorite parts of her talk on hope, as we continue our discussion of hope.

Julie 1:03:47

I love how she begins her talk and she says, "What is the opposite of hope? Despair. Of course. But despair comes when we feel powerless to influence events, and when the sources of meaning in our life disappear. Despair is a kind of disorientation so profound that we lose contact with the sources of life itself. Sisters, the sources of hope are the sources of life itself. That's why hope persists, even when experience, reason, and knowledge all say there is no reason to hope. Hope does not calculate odds. It is a double-sided virtue."

Why'd you mark that?

I think my favorite part is "hope does not calculate odds."

Tammy 1:04:30

Yep.

Julie 1:04:31

So, you know, odds are sometimes things aren't going to work out how you want but you can always have that hope. That hope in Christ.

Tammy 1:04:37

That's what I marked: "Hope doesn't calculate odds.' That, when I was listening to it while I was out walking that struck my heart. You're right, it doesn't. That's what makes hope so great. Like there's no way this is gonna work out. And I think that's what Satan does to us. He jumps in with the despair saying there is no way this is going to work out. There's no way that Heavenly Father has a plan for this. And Julie, you just beautifully have taught me. Like it's okay to hope, that's all I have in this scenario is hope that's gonna get me out of this.

Julie 1:05:07

Odds are things aren't going to change in the church right now. But I can hope that they do.

Tammy 1:05:12

Yes

Julie 1:05:13

Odds are your cancer might come back, but I can hope that it doesn't. It helps me have gladness.

Tammy, Debbie 1:05:20

Yes.

Debbie 1:05:21

So I actually was going to talk about the exact same verse that Julie read that says, "What is the opposite of hope? Despair, of course." So, um, the day after Christmas this year, I was actually out on a run. And I had this feeling to call my mom. And I love my mom but I would never stop my run to call my mom, normally. And I just thought, I gotta call my mom. And so I stopped my run and I called my mom, and she didn't answer the phone. And so then I called my dad, which was also weird, because normally I wouldn't do that, I would just wait for my mom to call me. And I called my dad and my dad answered and he said, 'What are you doing right now?" And I said, "Well, I'm on a run." And he goes, "Stop what you're doing right now.Aad pray for Max," my nephew. And he said,omething has happened, they're taking him to the hospital. And that was it.

And so I finished my run, and I got all my kids together. And my husband was on his way home. I called my husband and told him, "Gotta pray for Max ." And he was on his way home. And right as my husband walked in the door, I got a text from my sister-in-law, who lives in Wyoming, and said, "Max has passed away." Max is 17, the same age as my son, and I could not believe it. And I felt every ounce of hope totally gone. I only felt despair. And I felt that for a few days. And I had a lot of doubts that followed that experience because why didn't I, why didn't my family receive a miracle? Why were our prayers not answered? Why Max? Why my brother and his family? All these things. And I was going down, I was really feeling like hopeless, kind of in my Savior. I was just like, What are you doing? You know. And it wasn't until I got to Wyoming about five days after Max had passed.Aad I was able to hug my brother and my sister-in- law, and I was able to witness their decision to take this trial in faith, and in hope that it filled my bucket and gave me hope, again. And I'm so grateful for their example.

And to tie this all back into our very first discussion, we need the faith of each other and the hope of each other. And I needed my brother who was the one really struggling and continues to struggle on a level I will never fully understand. But I needed his example to give me hope. And I watched him choose hope in the Savior, hope in the resurrection, hope in the Gospel. And I'm very grateful for that.

Tammy 1:09:01

Thank you for sharing that with us. And, I mean I knew a little bit about your story and I'm so grateful you shared that. And I think what was interesting is that the situation surrounding your nephew, the way he passed away was so unbelievable. Like, right? He shouldn't have passed away. It was so random.

He shouldn't have passed away. Yeah, it was super random.

And, cuz did he get a blood clot or something?

Debbie 1:09:28

They're not 100 sure, but that is what my brother, who is a doctor, thinks happened.

Tammy 1:09:36

Yeah, for after a surgery that he had.

Debbie 1:09:38

Yeah, he actually didn't have surgery - an injury. He got injured in his hip. And perfectly healthy, perfectly fine, and got hurt playing basketball and just didn't make it.

Tammy 1:09:54

Well and from everything you described in your situation with your brother and your sister-in-law and that the hope that they gave you. It reminds me of this scripture in Romans, I just want us to turn there. Because I think this is what we do for each other ,when you said we have to be hope for each other and faith for each other.

Debbie 1:10:11

Can I add something Tammy?

Tammy 1:10:13

Please, please

Debbie 1:10:14

That without the hope, I just felt nothing. Despair was giving me nothing, it was giving me more pain to the already painful situation. And it was giving me more hurt and sorrow. And it's a conscious effort to say, I'm not going to, I'm not going to do that. I don't want to do that. I want to be hopeful about everything.

Tammy 1:10:42

Um hmm. And in your experience that you shared when you saw your brother and your sister-in-law, and then I love how you implored all of us together with faith and with hope, that's, that we can help each other out. Turn to Romans 15. We're towards the end of the letter and here's what he writes. Romans chapter 15, we're going to read verses 30-33. Because it's just so fitting for what you just shared, Debbie. So Romans 15:30-33. And we'll each take a verse. And let's start with you Debbie, we'll just go Debbie, Julie, then me.

Debbie 1:11:22

Romans 15:30. "Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me;

Julie 1:11:34

31: "That I may be delivered from them that do not believe in Judea; and that my service which I have for Jerusalem may be accepted of the saints;

Tammy 1:11:43

32: "That I may come unto you with joy by the will of God, and may with you be refreshed.

Debbie 1:11:50

33: "Now, the God of peace, be with you all."

Julie 1:11:53

Amen.

Tammy 1:11:53

And I just imagine how refreshing that was to see them and to know and experience that hope with them. And again, verse 30, makes me think of you. "Strive together with me in your prayers." And that's what you and your children did. And you continue to do: you pray for your brother and your sister-in-law. But I like how you just implored all of us to help each other out in faith, in hope, in grace. And especially in the end of that so that we can all be refreshed. Isn't that what it does? Faith, grace, and hope refreshes all of us.

Debbie 1:12:25

Yeah. I love the very end, in verse 33, when it says, "Now the God of peace be with you." Because when you go through a trial like this, you are hoping for the peace and the comfort. And you, that is what you need is the peace and the comfort. And you're hoping for that. And then I love that it says "Amen." Tammy, you taught me, I think it's in Greek, it means trust in the Lord? right?

Tammy 1:13:00

In Hebrew

Debbie 1:13:01

In Hebrew it means trust in the Lord. And so, you know, if you've read that with context, like you're going through all these tribulations, but now the God of peace be with you. Trust in the Lord.

Tammy 1:13:16

In whom I will trust. Yep, that's what it is. Oh, Debbie. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that personal experience. Wow. That was it. That's such a beautiful discussion. That's faith, grace and hope. And that's Romans 1-6. Not a bad letter to get in the mail, right? So good, so good. K, well just take a minute and gather your thoughts. Is there one takeaway from today's discussion?

Debbie 1:13:38

My takeaway is that we cannot do this alone, that we need each other. And that we always get to choose our faith, our grace, and our hope.

Tammy 1:13:55

Amen.

Julie 1:13:56

I think what stands out to me is the discussion on Grace, and how I need to use that in my life more. How I think I've always thought of it as 'after all I can do,'but it really needs to be along the journey, that I need His grace now, here and now, and I need to give that to others, to myself, but I really need the grace of Jesus Christ. And I would say in addition, Debbie's, she said "hope in the resurrection." And I don't know that I've ever thought of hoping that way, but I do have hope in the resurrection. I thought that was beautiful.

Tammy 1:14:36

Absolutely, me too. Mine was the parts of the letters that stood out to you at the beginning. And, Debbie, for I long to see you that I may impart into you some spiritual gifts to the end. I mean, just, it just makes me think about your nephew now. Oh, I love that. That I long to see you. And 12 that is: that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith, both of you and me. And I feel that way with both of you, that we'll be comforted together. And then that's what we do for each other, we comfort each other. And we've felt the Spirit today as we've had this discussion about faith, grace, and hope. It's been awesome. And then Julie, for you to point out this judgment. I mean, because that's the problem is that we don't help each other out because we're too busy judging each other. And that's the reality. And so let's just like only judge ourselves and help each other out and offer each other faith, grace, and hope. That's the beauty of those three words is that they're given to us from our, from the Savior, so that we can then through our experience give those to other people. So thank you, both of you. Beautiful discussion. I love you both so much.

Julie 1:15:39

Love you, too Tam.

I knew it'd be awesome. Oh, and you were worried. This was beautiful. Hah, okay. That's it.

Debbie 1:15:48

All right.

Julie 1:15:48

Thank you Tam.

Debbie 1:15:49

Okay, bye.

Tammy 1:15:50

Love you.

Julie 1:15:50

Bye.

Tammy 1:15:51

Oh, gosh, what a great discussion. I love those women. I'm sure you have some takeaways. So if you haven't already joined our discussion group on Facebook or Instagram, go join it. It is a great place to share what you've learned throughout the week. Anything that you're thinking about this topic of faith, grace, and hope it is. So there's so much to talk about, and then at the end of the week on a Saturday, we do a question from this specific episode, so comment on the post that relates to this lesson. You can get to both our Facebook and Instagram by going to the show notes for this episode on LDS living.com/sunday on Monday. And go there because it's where we're gonna have the links to all the references, as well as a whole transcript of this entire discussion, and a glue-in for this episode and you're gonna want this glue-in. So go check it out.

The Sunday and Monday Study Group is a Deseret Bookshelf Plus original brought to you by LDS Living. It's written and hosted by me Tammy Uzelac Hall, and today our beautiful, brilliant study group participants were Julie Peterson and Debbie Barney. And you can find more information about my friends at LDS living.com/sunday on Monday. Our podcast is produced by Cole Wissinger and me. It is edited by Hailey Higham, and recorded and mixed by Mix At Six Studios. And our executive producer is Erin Hallstrom. Thanks for being here. We'll see you next week.

And please remember: You really Are God's Favorite.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai