32: "Yet Will I Trust in Him" (Job 1–3; 12–14; 19; 21–24; 38–40; 42)

Tammy 0:00

There are some critically acclaimed authors and scholars who feel strongly about the Old Testament book that we're going to be studying this week. Here's what they have to say: "One of the most wonderful productions of any age or in any language", by Daniel Webster. Here's another one. "One of the grandest things ever written with pen." That's written by Thomas Carlyle. And here's the last one: "One of the greatest masterpieces of the human mind. If all literature was to be destroyed and was left to me to retain one work only, I should save Job", by Victor Hugo. The Book of Job is massive, and I'm not referring to chapters or pages, but instead to its content. And after our study of this book, I'm really hoping we feel the same way as these authors or that we can come as close as possible to the reviews we just read.

Welcome to the Sunday and Monday Study Group, a Deseret Bookshelf Plus original brought to you by LDS Living, where we take the Come, Follow Me lesson for the week, and we really dig into the scriptures together. I'm your host, Tammy Uzelac Hall. K, if you're new to our study group, I just want to make sure you know how to use this podcast. So follow the link in our description; it's going to explain how you can best use this podcast to enhance your Come, Follow Me study, just like my friend Deborah Wagner from Sandy, Utah. Hi, Deborah, I'm so glad you're listening.

Rachel 1:15

Okay, now here's my favorite thing about this study group, is each week we're joined by two of my friends. So it's a little bit different each week, and today, for sure is different. These are two new friends and I have been looking so forward to this episode because today we've got Rachel and Dale Kimball. Hi, friends.

Dale 1:30

Hi.

Rachel 1:30

Hi there.

Tammy 1:31

Oh, this is fun. Okay, let's say, we have to tell everybody how we know each other. So I'm going to start because I love these two people so much. It makes me a little emotional. When I first moved into the ward I was assigned to back in the day - visit teach - Rachel. And I'll tell you who visit taught who - Rachel. You taught me more than any woman I could ever imagine. And I looked so, it's like the only time I really look forward to visiting teaching. I wanted to have like visiting teaching every week with Rachel Kimball because the stories you shared and you just made my partner and I, who is Tammy, also my neighbor, you just made us feel so much better about being moms and struggling and trying to find our place. You were just a gem.

Rachel 2:14

Well, thank you.

Tammy 2:15

It was fun, wasn't it?

Rachel 2:16

I love you too.

Tammy 2:17

Oh, and then Dale - I've always admired - he is very wise. And when anytime he speaks in church, you're gonna listen, you're gonna want to hear what he has to say. And he has come, well it tell us a little bit about yourself so people know your background.

Rachel 2:31

Well, I grew up in Draper as did Dale. So we've lived there almost our entire life. I'm the mother of six, and the grandmother of 25. And I'm the great grandmother of 27 at this time, with one coming soon. I was a stay-at-home mother with my children until eventually I was able to go to nursing school and I spent my nursing time in the ER. I loved every single minute of it. And I retired when I was 72.

Tammy 2:59

How old were you and you went back to nursing school?

Rachel 3:01

I was 48. I graduated when I was 51. But it was a joy in my life. I went to that school, I went to school on the Dale Kimball scholarship,

Dale 3:12

A very generous scholarship it was.

Tammy 3:14

Very generous. Dale, tell us a little bit about yourself.

Dale 3:19

I should say that the Rachel omitted something I think is pretty important. In the several years before she went to nursing school, she was a volunteer EMT on the Draper ambulance. And I think that really got her interest going in emergency care, basically. I grew up in Draper on a dairy farm. I was two years ahead of Rachel in school. I knew her and her family. She claimed she didn't know me, which was kind of disheartening. I thought everyone knew me. It was a small town then. I graduated from Jordan High School. I went on a mission to Northern California. I graduated from BYU, I graduated from the University of Utah law school; practiced at a big firm in town here for about seven years, went down to teach at the new BYU Law School for a couple of years full-time, three or four part time. But in the second year of the full-time teaching, I helped found a law firm. There were five of us who found it and when I left it in '97, there were about 50 or 60 of us.

Tammy 4:18

Fantastic.

Dale 4:19

In '97 I was appointed as a United States District Judge for the District of Utah and I'm in my 25th year of that - Federal judge, it's a lifetime appointment if you want it to be unless you get impeached. Nobody's tried to impeach me yet,

Tammy 4:34

or been successful at it.

Dale 4:35

I'm a Senior Federal Judge now, which means I have a reduced caseload, but then I have another national assignment. I'm still pretty busy. And I think Rachel does not want me to be around home all the time. She's afraid I'll try to boss her around.

Rachel 4:49

I think, I think one thing that we should mention is that we've been married 60 years,

Dale 4:54

Yes we have, we have been married 60 years.

Tammy 4:56

Wow.

Dale 4:57

Rachel's been the Young Women's resident and a special envoy on some sensitive issues in our area; she was a Stake Young Women's President. And I've been a high councilor, Bishop, Stake President, and Regional Representative. That might be of some interest to people, I guess.

Tammy 5:13

Yeah, no, I think that's wonderful. So thank you, thanks for sharing that. Well, and as you've listened to their life experience, and as you've listened to everything they've had to share with us, I hope you're as excited as I am to hear what they have to say about the book of Job because Job is this big expansive look at a man's life from beginning to end. And I just thought you two would have such great insight and things to share about this book and a different way to look at it. And so that's why I've invited them. So those of you listening, grab your scriptures, your journals and your scripture markers, and let's dig into the book of Job. All right, you too. Here we go. I want to know what your responses to this question. Was Job a real person?

Rachel 5:54

I'm going to answer that first if it's okay, because Dale and I have different view about this. I believe that Job did exist. But he existed anciently. And his story was passed on verbally as a great story, an example of hardship in a person's life because there was no written language at that time. It could have been passed on - and may I say, even embellished a little bit along the way - an allegory or a parable why a just and good God would allow a good person to suffer the way he did?

Dale 6:33

Well, he's mentioned at least three times in scriptures, Ezekiel talks about if only Noah, Daniel, and Job were left, they'd have to, they'd be saved, but they couldn't save others because they were so righteous and so on. James 5 and 11 talks about his patience. But D&C 121:7-10 reference in the Doctrine and Covenants about Joseph Smith, to not whine too much, even though he was in horrible circumstances, no question about it because he was not yet as Job. So I think probably he was a real person.

Tammy 7:12

Okay, great perspectives from both of you. The reason I ask this question is because a lot of people struggle with this, like, was Job real? Is it an allegory, and I love your perspective, Rachel, that maybe have been a little embellished if it was handed down. And Dale, just like you said, for, for the Lord to speak to Joseph and say, 'Listen, you don't have it quite as bad as Job did.' So there's two different perspectives, but whatever side you are on with this idea of Job, the most important thing we're going to get out of this is the message and how it applies to all of our lives. So let's do this. We are going to just mark in Job three things about him. We're gonna go to Job 1:1, and next to verse 1, I want you to put "Job the religious man". And Dale, will you please read verse 1 for us?

Unknown Speaker 7:55

1:1 "There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and is eschewed evil."

Tammy 8:07

What does it mean to eschew evil?

Dale 8:09

To stay away from it. To be repelled by it.

Tammy 8:12

Oh, I like that better. I'm going to put 'repelled' next to eschewed'. That is good. Repelled. Hold, please. So that verse tells us about the religious man. There are two other categories for Job; the next one is going to be in verses 2-5. So bracket those off in your scriptures, 2-5, and to the outside, put 'the kinsman'. This is Job, the husband or the kinsman. And verses 2-5 tells us all about his family and his horses and everything that he owns, and cattle and all of that. And so that's what we want to put next to that. And then we have Job, the human. So on your page where it says the book of Job, we're going to tell you his name in Hebrew. And in Hebrew, it is Yov. And it means, his name means hated, oppressed, or miserable. And boy, you can see that in today's story, right? Does his name play into the situ, did you, do you think his name plays into this situation pretty well?

Dale 9:06

Well, obviously it does.

Tammy 9:08

It's so sad. And you begin to think maybe God did hate him based on everything that we're going to study. So we are going to look into the three aspects of Job as a religious man, a kinsman, and a human. And I want

Dale 9:20

May I interrupt you for a minute?

Tammy 9:21

Yes, please.

Dale 9:22

I'd like to say about Job: he was righteous, rich, healthy, and he had a great family.

Tammy 9:29

Why did you put that?

Dale 9:31

Well, because it just doesn't get any better than that, does it? He had everything.

Tammy 9:37

Do you feel the same way about your situation right now in life?

Dale 9:41

Well,

Tammy 9:44

or you're working towards it.

Dale 9:45

Yes. I'm not as righteous as Job. I'm pretty healthy for my age. I'm not as rich as he was, but I can't complain about my, our economic situation. We have a great family. Perfect family? No. Great family.

Tammy 10:00

Great family. Would you agree, Rachel?

Rachel 10:02

Yes. But we're not supposed to have a perfect family if we believe what Job went through.

Tammy 10:08

Yeah. Oh, I like how you just said that. Okay, so we're going to look into this book, then. Here's the thing that I was struck with, is I was surprised to learn that the overall message of Job is not 'why do bad things happen to good people?', but it's really about 'what good people do when bad things happen to them.' And you might be surprised as I was, to learn that it isn't necessarily about the platitudes of finding joy in the journey or bloom where you're planted. But it can also include this important aspect, and we're going to tell you about what that is in the next segment.

Segment 2 10:15

.....

Tammy 10:32

So I asked Dale to tell us a little bit about this story, because in Job 1-3, it almost begins like a courtroom-like setting. But Dale, I wanted to know your thoughts and opinions on this. So we're going to turn to Job chapter 2. And tell us a little bit about this and what the setup is for this story.

Dale 10:57

Well, as it's related in chapter 2, God and Satan are conversing. And Satan says, Of course, Job is righteous, of course he's faithful because he has everything.' As I just suggested. And God says, Well, you can take everything but his life. Now, what do I believe about that?

Tammy 11:27

Yeah, I want to know

Dale 11:28

I don't believe that. I don't believe that and the Come, Follow Me people don't seem to either because they write in the lesson "This is not meant to portray an accurate situation in the way God deals with man." It's meant to suggest that Satan is our accuser and tempter, our enemy, but that God doesn't make deals. You could look at it though, as though it's in a court setting where, in effect, Satan's made a motion. Let me tempt this guy and see what he does. And God grants the motion. That's one way to look at it. But the way it's put to me, I think of a negotiating situation. Well, can I do this? Can I do that? Yeah, you can do that. You can't do that. But again, I don't believe that's an accurate portrayal. But, but it sets it up really well.

Tammy 12:24

It really does. I bracketed it off verses 1-6, and to the outside, I wrote "counsel in heaven", only because sometimes it works that way. In my brain like, I imagined - and my friends and I always used to joke about this - that when we were single and things happened, we would imagine that there is this counsel and that God is sitting at this, like in a courtroom, and the people who were our attorneys would go up and go, 'But Your Honor, please. She's been single enough, like, let her get married.' And so they would negotiate with the Lord, you know, and then they're like, well, let's just give her a few dates. And we'll just appease her for a while. And so, as I'm reading this, I'm like, Oh, this sounds about right, I've imagined this scenario many times. But I think you're right. It's not how it's really, like, Satan's not going to the Lord and negotiating at all. That is a little bit erroneous. It kind of goes back to this idea of what you said, Rachel, that it's sort of like a parable, maybe an analogy.

And I appreciate Dale, how you set this up, that "you can do anything except you can't take his life." And so Satan, or in this story, it's interesting because he's called THE Satan. When you read the word Satan in here, specifically, in verse 6 it says,

1:6 "And the LORD said unto Satan". In Hebrew, it actually says, "And the LORD said unto THE Satan, Hassatan. So it's actually a title that He's giving this enemy to God and this enemy to Job. And He says, "Behold, he is in thine hand, but save his life", just like you said, Dale. So there it is. And so he has this situation, we have Job's afflictions, and his afflictions are pretty bad. And they just make you so sad for him. So in Job 1:13-20, bracket that off and put to the outside, 'Job's afflictions'. This is where they begin. And basically, we're going to sum it up: all of Job's property and children are destroyed. He loses everything, his cattle, his children, it is a great loss. And then in addition to that, he is going to have some pretty horrible afflictions, like they're very severe.

And Rachel, I asked you to tell us a little bit about these because as a nurse, (I wanted to know), you're going to tell us his afflictions physically, also. I mean, he's grieving because he's lost people he loves, but then his body is going to go through something and I wanted to know from you what role physically this would play on his emotions. So tell us a little bit about his afflictions.

Rachel 14:43

Well, it starts out by that. We had an elderly gentleman come in the ER who was living alone and did not give himself care. His nephew brought him into the ER and we took off the boots and his lower limbs were covered with maggots. Now this, these are septic, this is a septic situation that you die from. He had nightmares, weight loss, and high fevers, which are, the high fevers are a sign of sepsis. It calls it a tremendous fever, skin turning black and constant pain. In the real world, he would have been dead. Because those afflictions kill you. You get sepsis, can kill you.

Tammy 15:41

And what role do you think that's playing on his emotions? Because he's grieving the loss of everyone he loves, now he's physically ill. How do those combine for your mental state?

Rachel 15:50

Well, you've probably had loved ones who are in a poor chronic, poor physical state. And they become depressed. They suffer despair, discouragement. It's very fatiguing to be in constant pain. And, you know, the Savior suffered these despair and disappointment and, and discouragement. The third time He went into the garden of Gethsemane, it was His worst suffering. And I so, He totally understands the kind of emotional pain that comes with the physical and suffered for that. That's what I think it happens. I have a quote I would like to share from Elder Bruce D Porter from the October 2007 conference. "As in all things, the Savior's life offers us the perfect example: though Jesus of Nazareth was utterly without sin. He walked through (his) life (in pain,) with a broken heart and a contrite spirit." And so not that job is like the Savior, but that the Savior understands this kind of suffering. In all of this, He understands, because that's how He walked through life.

Tammy 17:13

Rachel, I appreciate the words you used. He was depressed, he was just so sad. And many people listening can relate to the experiencing those feelings. And I appreciate it because I want us to just have a feeling for how hard it was for Job to have lost everything. It is just utterly defeating is another word that I would use to describe it.

Rachel 17:35

Another word is abandonment, which the Savior also experienced in Gethsemane.

Tammy 17:41

Absolutely. So let's jump into Job 1:20-22, and let's read Job's reaction to all of this now.

Dale 17:49

May I make a comment?

Tammy 17:50

Oh, Dale, I'd love that.

Dale 17:51

You, you were talking about a court situation earlier. One of Jesus's titles is as an Advocate for us. He's our advocate. And He's entitled to be our advocate because He went through all the pain, suffering, despair, abandonment, difficulty for everyone.

Tammy 18:13

Now that's powerful. Because later on in our episode we're going to talk about a specific scenario where the Lord, absolutely as an advocate, knows what He's talking about. I'm so grateful that you brought that up. That is powerful, very good. Let's read in Job 1:20-22 and we're going to read Job's reaction to his afflictions. And I want us to think about what his reaction tells us about him.

Dale 18:39

1:20 "Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped,

21 "And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: for the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.

22 "In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly."

Tammy 19:04

So what did these verses teach us about Job?

Dale 19:07

He has a lot of resilience, he has a lot of faith.

Rachel 19:12

He didn't blame God. He didn't blame God. He was, he was sorrowful though. You don't rent your mantle and shave your head if you're not sorrowful,. And so he suffered sorrow. And yet he worshipped the Lord. He accepted what was given to him. And he trusted the Lord.

Tammy 19:32

Yeah. I'm so glad you pointed that out. That's exactly what shaving your head and renting your clothes, it is an outward manifestation of just utter grief. And so he was willing to acknowledge like, Yeah, I am so sad. And he's acknowledging that and I think we can't skip that part because Job is sad, and he continues to worship. He's going to somehow figure this out. So what's interesting to me is this is not the end of Job's grief. Like he has words to say, a few more, but it's going to be after he received some visitors. So, in the next segment, we're going to talk about who they are.

Segment 3 20:08

.....

Tammy 20:09

So this is a fun question for you, two, because you have done funerals. And you've been in charge of funerals and all sorts of things. I want to know, in our culture, what are some funeral traditions that we practice? Because right out of the gates, I'm saying 'Funeral Potatoes'.

Dale 20:25

Well, a service, a viewing. A line of an opportunity to offer condolences.

Rachel 20:33

And initially, when members of our family have passed away, we gather right after, we go to the home, and can we, can we help? We love you, but we gather together as families. In more than one situation, right? Initially at the death, and then at the funeral: the family prayer, and then the meal after, it's all gathering.

Tammy 20:59

Yeah. Another tradition that's interesting, and I think it's unique to our religion, is when you bury the body. at the gravesite, there is a graveside prayer. Is that right?

Dale 21:09

Yes, a dedicatory prayer on the grave.

Tammy 21:11

And what's the purpose of that, Dale?

Dale 21:14

Well, I think it has several purposes. One is to hallow the ground for the living as a place to go and find some solace and reflect on the life of the person who's gone. That's one reason and another is to bring some more measure of finality to the situation, and comfort, I think,

Tammy 21:37

Yeah, I think so too. I like how you said that of "hallow the ground for the people visiting". That's beautiful. Well, in this story, Job has some visitors, he actually has three friends,

Dale 21:52

"friends" in quotes,

Tammy 21:53

(laughter) "friends" in quotes. We're gonna read their names and mark them. It is in verse 11. So we're gonna read their names first, and then I'm going to tell you about a cool funeral tradition. So let's go to Job 2:11. And at the very beginning, it says, "Now when Job's three friends", go ahead and put quotations around

Dale 22:11

"friends" in quotes,

Tammy 22:12

"friends" in quotes, exactly. They heard of all this evil, they "heard of all this evil that was come upon him, they came everyone from his own place; Eliphaz the Temanite, and Bildad the Shuhite, and Zophar the Naamathite:"

Now highlight their names: Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar. Those are his 3 "friends", but let's read about what they do that is such a beautiful tradition. Rachel, will you please read for us in Job chapter 2, we're going to read verse 10.

Rachel 22:43

I think it's interesting though, in verse 11, where it says, "for they had made an appointment together, to come to mourn with him and to comfort him." So in 13, ",,,,they sat down with him upon the ground seven days and seven nights, and none spake a word unto him: for they saw that his grief was very great."

Tammy 23:05

Now, this is a real tradition, it still happens. It today, it is called a sitting Sheva. And Sheva and Hebrew means seven. And in the Jewish culture, they will sit for seven days in silence.

Dale 23:16

Wouldn't it be a good thing if one of the things that we did or didn't do was go and just be with people, rather than talking all the time, just be there? And for seven days, they did that. Maybe that's what they should have kept doing?

Tammy 23:40

You're absolutely right! Because when they open their mouths, ahhh, chaos ensued,

Dale 23:45

When they started to open their mouths, there wasn't much comfort coming forth.

Tammy 23:49

Oh my gosh, I'm gonna put that, I like that. I'm gonna just put in big letters BE QUIET. Like sometimes that's the best thing we can do is to say nothing. How amazing with

Dale 23:59

Or very little,

Tammy 24:00

Very little, just to sit

Dale 24:01

We love you. We're sorry.

Tammy 24:03

Yeah. And to sit with those people for, I like how it says, for seven days. And in Hebrew, we know seven just means complete, or however long it took. But today, it really is seven days. I think that's really powerful to sit with the people that you love and not speak, and just mourn. Like you said, Rachel, I'm so grateful. You pointed that out at the end of verse 11, "made an appointment to come and mourn with him and to comfort him." Those are two very important words to us. They're in our baptismal covenants to mourn with those that mourn, comfort those who stand in need to comfort, with very little words. We'll add that. Should we add that into Mosiah 18?

Dale 24:34

Yes,

Tammy 24:35

"with very little words."

Dale 24:36

Let's unauthorizedly include that in Mosiah 18.

Tammy 24:39

Absolutely. So, like we said, Job's friends will talk to him starting in chapter 4 all the way until chapter 31. That's a lot of chapters of stuff that they have to say to Job. What did they say?

Dale 24:53

God punishes people for sin. And so you must have sinned and your punishments are horrendous. So you must have sinned horrendously,

Tammy 25:01

Yes; he summed it up perfectly. So if you don't have time to read all those chapters, that's what it is. In fact, they even come to the point where they make up stuff that maybe Job did. In chapters 22 and 31 they already, they start to surmise, 'Well, maybe you did this because you're, it's pretty bad Job. Did you ever think about that?' Isn't that

Dale 25:19

They speculated at length on what he had probably done to deserve what he got.

Tammy 25:24

They absolutely did. And then comes Job's words to him, like he decides he's going to speak. And let's go into Job chapter 3. I want you to bracket off verses 1- 11, because before the friends speak, Job does ask this question: Why was I even born? If life was going to turn out this bad? Verse 11 is what we want to highlight.

3:11 "Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly?"

Like, if this is how bad it was going to be, couldn't God have just let me die from the beginning? This is awful. So he kind of sets it up that way, he is grieving, he is so sad still. And then his friends begin to talk. And they are going, like we talked about, they're not helpful. Now let's turn to Job chapter 19. After all of that talking, after all, and it's a lot of talk about justice, they believe that God is only a just God. They believe that God only gives punishments due to people who deserve them. And so then Job's going to come in with this awesome verse, Job chapter 19. It's the verse of all verses; we sing it, we love it. And let's read it. Dale, will you please read Job 19:25-27.

Dale 26:33

19:25 "For I know that my Redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

26 "And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

27 "Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me."

Tammy 26:56

Thank you. Let's talk about those verses.

Rachel 27:00

I think we all get emotional when we read that those verses, because it's a testimony that we all have in our hearts, and when we sing it, we - and we hear other people sing it - we were all emotional. Because it says what we are thinking in our hearts: I know that my Redeemer liveth.

It's a beautiful song.

Oh, yes. Or in "The Messiah".

Tammy 27:27

Oh, yeah. Well, anyone who's in charge of music on Sunday, make this your song. It should be the opening song if we're going to be studying Job, because now you know the context for it. In fact, I thought it was interesting in Job 19:1 he asks his friends, "How long will you vex my soul and break me in pieces with words?" Dale, you mentioned you love that verse. Tell me about it.

Dale 27:49

Well, I actually quoted another verse, which is related.

Tammy 27:52

Oh, great.

Dale 27:52

It's over in chapter 21, verse three. "Suffer me that I may speak; and after that I have spoken, mock on."

Tammy 28:02

Tell us about that.

Dale 28:03

Well and he's saying, 'You're killing me with your words; you might as well go ahead. Let me have it some more. Mock on.

Tammy 28:12

mock on

Dale 28:13

Which is what, unfortunately, people - many of us do when people are suffering. Well they deserve it, so we'll give them a little more to worry about, like judging them and mocking them and making fun of them.

Rachel 28:28

I have kind of had an experience like that.

Tammy 28:31

Yeah, tell me about that.

Rachel 28:34

It was, was it 25 years ago, Dale?

Dale 28:37

Well, nearly.

Rachel 28:37

I fell putting up Christmas lights, to the concrete; broke both my arms and both my legs. In a wheelchair for four months. And really, I suffered quite a bit during that experience. And in the spring, I went to a garden wedding of a friend's daughter. And when I got there, I was still on a cane and I had people who were concerned about me and asked me how I was doing. But I overheard a woman say, 'She wouldn't wait for her husband.' So I deserved the fall, you see. But she said I wouldn't, "she wouldn't wait for her husband." And I can't forget that.

No. How did it make you feel when she said that?

You know, I didn't feel angry. I didn't feel angry. I felt

Dale 29:29

Did you feel judged?

Rachel 29:31

I feel, oh I felt judged for sure. And I felt, I wondered if other people were thinking that which was a foolish thing to think. But no, I just felt, I felt judged. That's a good way to put it, Dale, that I didn't wait for my husband so I deserved the fall.

Tammy 29:48

As humans we love to do that, don't we? We love to see a problem and think, Well they had it coming, or they earned it, she deserves that, she deserves that. We're so, unfortunately, we're really good at it, especially when it comes to parenting.

Dale 30:04

Even if somebody does deserve some bad fortune because of something they did - and we all have had, we all have had problems in our lives - because we did something that maybe on reflection we ought not to have done. It doesn't help to castigate and judge and belittle. It just doesn't help

Tammy 30:26

Not at all.

Dale 30:28

And in sports we'd say, "It doesn't advance the ball at all."

Tammy 30:32

Hold, please. think that's awesome.

Dale 30:36

In fact, it's like losing five yards,

Tammy 30:40

It is losing five yards.

Rachel 30:43

And the blame is defeating. That's the word I was trying to think of is, is to cast blame is defeating to the person who's already defeated.

Tammy 30:54

Yeah. Well, here's his friend's breaking Job to pieces with their words. And he's challenging 'em, 'Mock on, I don't know what else like, yeah, all right. Well, maybe you're right. Maybe I had it comin,' but it doesn't like it you said, What good will those words do? I've lost everything. It's not going to make the situation better, certainly isn't going to help me.

Dale 31:16

Makes it worse.

Tammy 31:17

It is the worst. It's awful. So these friends have this horrible response to him. And he comes back with this incredible testimony as you pointed out, Rachel and I, I'm going to put that word next to that verse: testimony. I think that's awesome. It is his testimony. And I hope it's mine when I go through something difficult. I hope that I will just come to "I know that my Redeemer liveth." Because after these friends have something to say, another unexpected friend of Job's shows up. And we're going to find out who that is and see what he has to say in the next segment.

Segment 4 31:50

.....

Tammy 31:51

Okay, this friend, oh, boy, this friend takes a completely different approach. And this guy's got hutzpah. That's the only word I could think to describe who comes to visit Job. I'm not gonna lie. If we get to meet people in the next life and this story does play out to be true, I'm standing in line to meet this friend. So let's go find out who he is. Let's turn to Job 32:3 because, oh, I've never known anyone who thought they were so awesome. Okay, Job 32:2 is his name.

32:3 "Then was kindled the wrath of Elihu", now there's his name, highlight that. He's younger than all of the men. It tells us that. And he's got words to say. And he thinks he is very smart. And he's got a different spin on what's going on. So Elihu who, in his teachings, and they are chapters 32-37, he gives two main reasons that HE thinks Job is experiencing these trials. And it has more to do with just justice, he's going to add something on, he's going to add a little bit more to the scales. And I think it's interesting. Let's go to Job 34:32, this is one of his reasons.

34:32 "That which I see not teach thou me:" He's basically pointing out that the trials we go through are to teach us. He's going to go through and say, 'God knows everything, God knows us.' And he's going to teach us a lesson, and then turn the page, we're going to go to Job 36:8-12. Bracket those off. And here's what he has to say in these verses. I'll sum it up. But he says trials are to build character. That's the goal. And it's going to help you figure out who you are, and all of this fun stuff now. So in these teachings, did anything else stand out to you about Elihu's words?

Dale 33:38

There's some truth in what he says. Trials can build character, trials can teach us things, or they can wear us down and destroy us and cause us to lose our faith.

Tammy 33:51

Where is Elihu a little bit wrong in his thinking? Does God give us those trials to force that?

Dale 33:57

No

Tammy 33:58

He allows them?

Dale 33:59

Yes. Agency.

Tammy 34:01

Absolutely.

Dale 34:02

We, we bring some of our trials on ourselves. Others, through their agency bring trials on us. And some trials just happen because of life. We get hit by a car. We, life is life, we get old. That brings its attendant problems.

Tammy 34:22

Has anything either one of you gone through helped you build character? Do you have a specific experience where your character was built because of a trial?

Rachel 34:29

Raising children I think probably is the greatest teacher in this this life.

Dale 34:35

I join in that opinion.

Rachel 34:38

And, and we have six children, and we love them completely. But they're imperfect,

Dale 34:46

as are we

Rachel 34:46

as are we. And they have made progress and then and then something will happen that it stalls that progress. But they learn something from it and so do we. I mean, it's just part of life and being parents and, and we also see the growth within, in our children, we've seen the growth of their choices and their mistakes, and who they are today. We're pleased with their progress and know some of those hardships shaped who they are today.

Tammy 35:20

It's great way to describe that.

Dale 35:22

I agree

Tammy 35:22

Anything to add

Dale 35:23

Or as we say, in the law, I concur.

Tammy 35:26

I concur. That's excellent. Well, when I think about how these hardships helped to build our character, but mostly that God allows them to happen, and then do we allow it to build our character?

Dale 35:38

You know, Elder Renlund made a point in a recent article in the Ensign, it's the August issue, I think. He says all sin eventually causes some kind of suffering. But all suffering is not necessarily related to sin.

Tammy 35:53

Oh, there it is. That's excellent. That is in the recent Ensign, isn't it?

Dale 35:57

Yes, August Ensign.

Tammy 35:59

I have to take it out of my plastic. (laughter) I'm gonna have to read that.

Dale 36:04

The important thing is, how do we react? What, whatever the source of our suffering, our difficulties, our challenges, how do we react? What do we do? Do we learn anything? Do we change?

Rachel 36:19

You know, I am very sympathetic to my friends and family members who have suffered over the years, with chronic pain, chronic problems. And their response, I understand their response is not always a good one. Despair is one of the worst feelings that a person can have, and discouragement. I have a friend who has been chronically ill for many years. And she said, she said, "The Lord does not love me." And she is stuck there because she has suffered so much. And I don't, I don't think the Lord is going to judge her harshly for that. Because He knows of her suffering; she can see no sense to it, no plan in it. And just feels her despair day after day.

Tammy 37:11

You know, Rachel, I appreciate that because I think that many of us today ask the same questions. There are many people suffering in so many different ways who feel that despair. And Job felt that despair. And you know, to have his friends come in and just not really offer the sympathy or the empathy that he could have used, instead trying to find reasons for why all these bad things happen. You know, we get to Elihu, and he's going to one up it and say, Well, here's why now, it is just, and what are you learning from this? Which can sometimes be a platitude, that's hurtful. I like Dale, how you said, sometimes you just need to be quiet. And even though there is truth to what Elihu said, he misses one really important key. We're gonna to go to Job chapter 37. And I want us to look at verse 23, because I thought this was so interesting, and it really stood out to me. Will you please read that verse for us, Dale.

Dale 38:01

37:23 "Touching the Almighty, we cannot find him out: he is excellent in power, and in judgment, and in plenty of justice: he will not afflict."

Tammy 38:12

Now, we do believe those things about him at the end. But at the very beginning, he says, "Touching the Almighty, we cannot find him out." I just think it's fascinating that in Job 37:23, we do believe that God is all those things at the end, But at the beginning, we cannot find him out. It's almost like he's removing God from the equation, like, you're never going to know God, you're never gonna know His mind, so don't try to figure Him out. Just take it like a man and just deal with it and learn what you can from the situation. And I think that is where Elihu gets it wrong. And the fact that it's one of the last things Elihu says right before the next friend comes, so in the next segment, we're going to find out who that friend is.

Segment 5 38:51

......

Tammy 38:53

So the last friend in the story is the most important one. Let's look at Job 38:1, And both of you, will you just look at verse 1 and tell me who's the friend that comes to visit Job?

Dale 39:05

The Lord

Rachel 39:06

The Lord comes

Tammy 39:07

The Lord. Highlight that, 'The Lord comes to job'. Boy, are we going to find him out or what? In fact, you can bracket off verses 38-41. This is a beautiful conversation that Job has with the Lord and it's so important. We're going to read in Job 38:2-7, We're each going to take a turn reading a verse. I love this discussion that the Lord has with Job. Go ahead, Dale.

Dale 39:33

38:2 "Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

Rachel 39:37

3 "Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee and answer thou me.

Tammy 39:44

4 "Where wast thou when I laid the foundation of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

Dale 39:50

5 "Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

Rachel 39:56

6 "Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof?

Tammy 40:03

7 "When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?"

Okay, we get to talk about these verses. They're some of my favorites in Scripture. First of all, I mean, verse 3. Let's sum that up. How would you sum that up? Rachel, I want to know, in your own words, if that was your son, and you said that to him, what are you really saying?

Rachel 40:24

Let me say, get it together, work on it. That's what I would say.

Dale 40:30

And remember that you know more than he does. You've had more experience, you've been around longer.

Rachel 40:36

I know. I'm not sure that was believed at the time. No,

Tammy 40:39

Of course not. Moms never do. But you're right. I imagine you saying, Get it together, alright? Be a man. Let's, now listen to me, here's what I have to say. And then we go into this verse 4; Dale, I want you to tell me your thoughts on this.

Dale 40:52

"Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?"

Tammy 40:55

Yeah. What's he saying to him there?

Dale 40:57

Well, Job was there. I mean, we were all there, weren't we? But isn't he also suggesting that He's the creator or the organizer, creator? We don't know what He knows. We don't have the understanding, we're here to gain part of that understanding. But we don't know what He knows.

Rachel 41:19

Where were you when I did all the work? We say that our children.

Tammy 41:24

That's exactly right. Well, and then I think it's really impressionable upon me when He says this idea in verses 5 and 6 where He was the framer, He stretched a line upon it. And we studied this last year in Doctrine and Covenants 20:17, where that verse tells us that the Lord was the framer, like, you have to be so careful. You have to mark things carefully and measure things carefully.

And the Lord's implying that to Job like, 'I was careful when I put a line, when I measured, I know the very' - now listen, I'm not really good at math or, or rulers, but like - 'I know the very 16th of a marking. Like nothing got by me, I framed this perfectly. And if you think that I don't know you but I understand this, then you're missing it completely. And He has this incredible conversation. Well, verse 7 is so fantastic, because verse 7 is alluding to our pre-earthly state, our premortal existence, when He says, "When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy", that was us. He's like Remember? Like, where were you when all of this happened? You were there. You knew the plan. You shouted for joy that you got to come to Earth. He's reminding him of his premortal existence and how it is all going to work out.

Dale 42:39

He wanted to come. He did, we did.

Tammy 42:43

We did. Now isn't that fascinating? You ever questioned that in your life? Growing up and raising kids? You ever question like, Really, I chose this?

Dale 42:53

It might have passed through my mind a time or two.

Tammy 42:56

How do you deal with those kinds of thoughts?

Dale 42:59

Move on.

Rachel 43:01

I just, I just trust the Lord. I always trust Him.

Tammy 43:04

How do you always trust Him? How have you been able to do that?

Rachel 43:08

Well, I don't know. And it's part of my spiritual growth through my life. It's been obvious that I can trust Him. And I do trust Him. I trust that I had, my testimony involves just the basic things. I know the Book of Mormon is true. I know that Joseph Smith restored the church. And those basic things are true, and I trust the Lord on all the other things that I don't have time to ponder over, or are confuse myself with.

Dale 43:44

I'll make a comment here. I want I want to tell you something my father taught me and I've said it this way. On the farm growing up, working as we did, even gospel conversations were welcomed as a kid. And he taught this lesson one way or another, he said, Look, you're going to have a lot of experiences in the church. And there's going to be people that you don't like that much sometimes and they do things that you think are really strange. And there'll be people who don't like you very much, and you'll work with them in the church. They might be your leaders, or you might be their leader. It doesn't matter a bit because Christ is the one to whom we owe everything, and so focus on Christ and you'll always be alright. You don't let these other things get in the way of that focus. That's pretty good thing for a father to teach somebody.

Rachel 44:43

And I certainly add that to my own testimony because I completely believe in the Savior and His Atonement. And those basic things, if you believe in those things and trust the Lord, you don't need to worry about some of the questions that come before you.

Tammy 44:59

There's a lot of questions out there. There's a lot of things and it was interesting, Rachel, when you said, 'things to confuse you.' There's a lot of things out there that can confuse us. And then you said, "I don't have time to really think about"

or energy

or energy. And I feel the same way. I think that's what my testimony is rooted in that it'll all work out. And that's faith. And we've tried to have that conversation with our kids often, is that we live in a world where answers come quickly. And I've said this before, and you can buy things fast, and you can get what you need. And so my kids are just used to having everything at their fingertips. And they don't really know what faith is. And we've tried to express to them, you're living in faith because we don't know how it's going to work out in the next life, as Kiersten said. "My dad has two womens." That's what she said, after I got married to Jim. "Wait a minute, my mom has two women's, how's that gonna work? Or my dad, she said, she said, "Wait a minute, my dad has to women's; how's that going to work out? And we're like, we don't know. But for my children to live in that space of not knowing how it's going to work out, that's faith. That is an okay space to be in and so you just have to trust God.

Like you both said, to trust Christ that it will work out, and then move on, you know, get it together and be like men. I think that's a great way that the Lord spoke to Job in that, like, we don't know the reasons for everything, but I need you to trust Me because I have carefully measured this out. I have done my very best and it's actually the best job that could have been done. And so you have to trust in that. I love and appreciate what both of you have just shared. So at the very beginning of our episode, we said that Job was three kinds of people. He was a human, a kinsman, and a religious man. How would the human respond to the words that the Lord has said to him - gird up your loins? What do you, you know?

Dale 46:48

'You're asking too much. I can't do it.' Some people: 'I won't try to do it. I won't try to gird up my loins.'

Tammy 46:57

Yeah, I give up, I'm done. Absolutely. And then we have this idea of the religious man. And that's what you've just shared with us, how the religious man would respond. And he responded beautifully. And we're going to find out what that response is in the next segment.

Segment 6 47:12

.....

Tammy 47:16

Let's turn to Job chapter 42. And we're going to read verse 2. Rachel, will you please read verse 2? Here's Job, the religious man's response.

Rachel 47:23

42:2 "I know that thou canst do everything, and that no thought can be withholden from thee."

Tammy 47:30

So he acknowledges God's greatness right there. And because of that, look what happens to him in verse 5. Rachel, will you read verse 5 for us.

Rachel 47:37

42:5 "I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee."

Tammy 47:43

What happened to Job there?

Rachel 47:45

Wow. He saw the Lord.

Tammy 47:48

So for me, this verse taught me that the point of our trials is to know God, and to see Him again, to return to Him. That is why Moses 1:39. This is my work in my glory, to bring to pass the immortality," which is resurrection, and eternal life, to live forever with God. I just think like, why would you want to live with someone for eternity that you didn't trust or didn't know? And so it's so cool, that Job is going, he's going to see the Lord. He sees Him, he knows Him. And that is the beautiful ending to this horrible story. And I think that it's going to be our ending, and I love that. That we will see the Lord, we will know Him. And so I'm just curious to know, Dale and Rachel, in your experience, in your trials in your life, how have those helped you to come to know the Lord better, or come to know our Heavenly Father better?

Dale 48:39

I have to admit, I've had some things that I think are trials, there were some tough lawsuits I was in as a practitioner, tough decisions as a judge. And I'd rather have skipped them. But I have to admit that I learned a lot from many of those experiences.

Tammy 49:03

How did they help you learn about God? Or did they?

Dale 49:07

Mostly they did. I mean, I became more patient.

Tammy 49:15

That's a good one.

Dale 49:15

Rachel doesn't believe that.

Tammy 49:17

I wish you could see - he just kind of smiled at her.

Dale 49:21

More merciful, less judgmental, more understanding, more sympathetic. I mean, I've got a long way to go.

Tammy 49:31

Well, we all do.

Dale 49:32

What's that? There's a country song "I got a long way to go and not much time to get there."

Tammy 49:37

Yeah, exactly. For sure you don't know. I'm just kidding. (laughs) What about you, Rachel, how have your trials helped you to come to know God?

Rachel 49:48

I believe that he's in charge of our sufferings allows our sufferings that when we understand that it improves our faith and it improves through these hardships we become more knowledgeable of God even. Those are hard lessons to learn. And I think God is a loving Father. And I imagine God sees the growth that we go through and is satisfied with that.

Tammy 50:16

I think you're both right. I love those experiences you had. You know, it's after Job sees God. I think it's interesting because in verse 6, he says, "Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes'" He just absolutely succumbs. He knows the Lord, he repents, but I love how from beginning to end, he worshiped the Lord. But even in between, he was still sad and it's okay, we're gonna grieve. You can be sad. We're not telling anybody listening, Don't grieve. That's part of the human emotion, the experience, and Job did that. But beginning to end, he worshiped. And after he worshiped then in verse 9, the Lord chastises his friends, and then together they offer sacrifices to the Lord. And I want you two to tell us in verses 11-17, how does Job's story end?

Dale 51:04

it's a happy ending.

Tammy 51:06

Let's go to Job chapter 42. And in verses 10-17, we're gonna read all seven verses, I want us to discover how it is a happy ending. Here we go.

Dale 51:15

42:10 "And the Lord turned the captivity of Job, when he prayed for his friends: also, the Lord gave Job twice as much as he had before.

Rachel 51:23

11 "Then came there into him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him and comforted him over all the evil that the Lord had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and everyone an earring of gold.

Tammy 51:42

12 "So the Lord blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning: for he had fourteen thousand sheep, and six thousand camels, and a thousand yoke of oxen, and a thousand she asses.

Dale 51:53

13 "He had also seven sons and three daughters.

Rachel 51:56

14 "And he called the name of the first, Jemima; and the name of the second, Kezia; and the name of the third, Keren- happuch.

Tammy 52:04

15 "And in all the land were no women found so fair as the daughters of Job: and their father gave them inheritance among their brethren.

Dale 52:12

16 "After this lived Job an hundred and forty years, and saw his sons, and his sons' sons, even four generations.

Rachel 52:21

17 "So Job died, being old and full of days."

Tammy 52:24

That's a happy ending,

Rachel 52:25

Yes.

Tammy 52:27

Or is it? Do you want to be 140 with all that cattle?

Rachel 52:29

This says AFTER that he lived 140 years.

Tammy 52:32

He did.

Rachel 52:33

After that.

Tammy 52:34

Still, that's old. wow!

Dale 52:35

I'm sure he had a lot of employees and help.

Tammy 52:36

I think you're right, a lot of good help. Now, this is a really great quote, it is from Joseph B. Wirthlin. And it's from his talk, "Come What May, and Love It. I just think that's such a great talk. Rachel, will you read this quote for us.

Rachel 52:51

"The Lord compensates the faithful for every loss. That which is taken away from those who love the Lord will be added upon them in His own way. While it may not come at the time we desire, the faithful will know that every tear today will eventually be returned a hundred-fold with tears of rejoicing and gratitude."

Tammy 53:11

Oh. Now that's our happy ending, right? Are we still waiting for it? Have you experienced anything where the Lord has recompensed your loss in any way or anything?

Dale 53:20

Well, I've learned a lot.

Rachel 53:22

I think the experience of losses, and then having some of those losses restored, teaches you about gratitude to the Lord. It increases your understanding of the Lord and your relationship with the Lord. And any time you suffer and then when that suffering ends, you're a better person and a wiser person, and a more - I don't want to use necessarily the word righteous - but at least your relationship with the Lord, you're closer with the Lord. And that's what, the how the trust develops.

Tammy 53:58

I think one of the best things that the Lord adds to us is the gift of time and healing, and to have perspective. Like when something happens, and it's a great loss, we're so stuck in that moment that we can't see. And that throughout time, I think the Lord helps us to have this new perspective. We have a great friend in common who lost a child. And this child was two years old. And at the time, the greatest comfort she had was knowing that she'd be able to raise that child in the next life, that that child would be resurrected. It's now been almost 14 years. Isn't that crazy how long it's been? But I love her perspective now because of time, it has changed and she has said, I'm okay. I just want to be with my child again. And I thought that's so fascinating that the Lord granted her this time for perspective and to heal. And she still goes to that hallowed ground that is dedicated and set apart, where her heart is able to heal, and she's able to gain perspective. She has a wonderful approach to life and loss. And she does believe that everything will be added upon, and she's waiting for that day to come.

Dale 55:05

If we use our time intelligently, it really does teach us to be more patient, more and more patient about outcomes and progress in ourselves and in others. With respect to outcomes, we don't need them immediately. And then that teaches us to be more tolerant and patient with other people and their problems as we work through our own and learn to...The Lord's timetable isn't ours. We can't have everything now.

Tammy 55:39

And I wonder how the 140 years played into that for Job, if he had another 140 years then, to gain new perspective about his loss that he experienced. I want to meet him; want to shake his hand,

Dale 55:52

I wouldn't mind meeting him, either. It would be an interesting guy to meet, I think.

Tammy 55:54

It would be such a great conversation to have to go through everything. So, thank you. Thank you, both of you for joining me today. That's the end of our discussion of Job.

Rachel 56:02

Thank YOU.

Tammy 56:03

Okay, so take a minute and just gather your thoughts. What's your takeaway from our discussion today, something that struck you? or that we just, in our discussion and just kind of share what that is.

Dale 56:12

It kind of summed, sums it up for me, at least. It's Alma 62:41. This is after a period of almost constant warfare between the Nephites and the Lamanites. A lot of people killed, a lot of people maimed, fields ruined. Is a horrible series of years and wars. "But behold, because of the exceedingly great length of the war between the Nephites and the Lamanites, many had become hardened because of the exceeding great length of the war. And many were softened because of their afflictions, insomuch that they did humble themselves before God, even in the depth of humility." So which are we, what are we going to do? We going to become hardened, are we going to become softened through our trials?

Tammy 56:58

Wow, it's a great perspective for job. What's that reference again?

Dale 57:02

Alma 62:41.

Tammy 57:05

Thank you very much, Dale, great takeaway. What about you, Rachel?

Rachel 57:09

We have to know that God is sovereign. And that He means to prove our faith and to purify our lives through these hardships that we experience. And in the end He'll make things better, or we'll understand the purpose of the hardships and become closer to Him.

Tammy 57:29

Beautifully said, thank you. I like that. My takeaway is from both of you. It's when you said to focus on Christ, and Rachel when your bore your testimony about how you've always been able to trust Him. I just thought that was great. And you've lived a life and you know from where you speak. And it's not filled with platitudes. And that's what I love the most about the two of you; you've always just been succinct in your thoughts the whole time I've ever known you and you say it like it is. And you did that today in our discussion. So I loved that. And then the other thing that I marked too, was Dale, when you said, "it doesn't advance the ball at all." Sometimes when we mourn, let's just sit and be quiet, and be with the people that we love. So, thank you very much; love you guys

Rachel 58:10

We love you, thank you very much.

Tammy 58:14

Well, we would love to hear what your big takeaway is from this episode. So if you haven't already joined our discussion group on Facebook, or if you're not following us on Instagram, go do it. It's just a great place to ask questions as you study, and I try to answer anything I can during the week. And so do everybody else who's a part of this whole community, it's really fun. Then at the end of the week, usually on a Saturday, we post a call for your big takeaway, so comment on the post that relates to this lesson and let us know what you learned. You can get both our Facebook and Instagram by going to the show notes for this episode on LDS living.com/sundayonmonday, and if you go there you will find the links to all the references as well as a complete transcript of this entire discussion. So go check it out.

The Sunday on Monday Study Group is a Deseret Bookshelf Plus original brought to you by LDS Living. It's written and hosted by me Tammy Uzelac Hall and today our wonderful study group participants were Rachel and Dale Kimball. And you can find more information about my friends at LDS living.com/sundayonmonday. Our podcast is produced by Katie Lambert and me; it is edited by Hailey Higham; and it is recorded and mixed by Mix At Six Studios'; and our executive producer is Erin Hallstrom. Thanks for being here.

We'll see you next week and OHHHH, please remember that you are God's favorite and He can't wait for you to see Him again.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai