28: "Great Shall Be Their Reward and Eternal Shall Be Their Glory" (Doctrine and Covenants 76)

Tammy 0:00

Buckle up and I am not even kidding. This is going to be one of the most fast-paced, whirlwind, action-packed, doctrinally intense sections that we have yet to study, you guys. There is so much in Doctrine and Covenants Section 76 that I am praying Ben Schilaty's dad was right when he taught us that God's time is elastic, because we are going to need some of that stretch in order to cover everything, or, as much as we can in the next hour. Give or take a few minutes.

Welcome to the Sunday on Monday Study Group, a Deseret Bookshelf Plus Original brought to you by LDS Living, where we take the Come Follow Me lesson for the week, and we really dig into the scriptures together, especially today. I'm your host, Tammy Uzelac Hall. Now if you're new to our study group, I want to make sure you know how to use this podcast, so follow the link in our description. It's going to explain how you can best use this podcast to enhance your Come Follow Me study. Just like my friend Jen Coccimigilo. Hi, Jen. And Laura Aldridge Reese, who listens because of Jen. So thank you, Jen. Hi, ladies.

Now another awesome thing about our study group, and this is truly my favorite thing: each week we're joined by two of my friends, so it's always going to be different. And this is the most different because I've never had either one of these guests on. And today we have Jennifer Brinkerhoff Platt and Laryssa Wilhelm Waldron. Hi, ladies. Hey, how are you? I love these women so much because we were in the trenches together of being teachers in Seminary and now you're both in Idaho teaching, right?

Jennifer 1:25

Yep

Laryssa 1:25

Yes.

Tammy 1:26

Tell us a little bit about where you are.

Jennifer 1:28

Okay, we live in Rexburg, and I'm teaching on the religion faculty at Brigham Young University Idaho.

Tammy 1:34

Yay, so anyone listening who is going to BYU-I sign up for Sister Brinkerhoff.

Jennifer 1:39

Platt.

Tammy 1:40

Platt. Sorry, doey. That's right. That's the other thing about us we have in common, we all got married older. But we got married!

Jennifer 1:51

It happened.

Tammy 1:53

And we didn't think it would. Where are you Larisa?

Laryssa 1:56

I'm here in Rexburg, as well. I had the beautiful privilege of being able to work with Jen for a while at BYU-I. She is a phenomenal teacher; she brings such compassion and love and she's a wonderful teacher. And it's just a privilege to be here. I teach at the high school here in seminary. I was at BYU-I two years ago, and Madison High Seminary last year, and I'll be at the junior high this next year. So

Tammy 2:21

as well as the principal, let's just point that out.

Laryssa 2:24

Oh, pretty exciting. So the Lord just keeps moving me. So some of you get to stay put. Me I'm like, ...

Jennifer 2:35

the impact, right? We all want a little bit of Laryssa. So He has to spread you around.

Tammy 2:39

Boy, I think that was perfectly said, Jen, everyone needs a little Laryssa in their, everybody needs a Laryssa, that's true. Laryssa, we were in the same singles word together before we even became seminary teachers. Like, we're living the best life, doing what we wanted to do. And then God's like, Yeah, I got other plans. Well, okay, I mean we could talk forever, just this. I don't know how we're going to do this, you guys. Honestly, it's going to be so hard. There's so much to talk about.

For those of you who are listening and you want to know more about my guests and see pictures of them you can find those in our show notes, which are at LDS Living dot com slash Sunday on Monday.

So I kind of feel like Willy Wonka, you know, when he was frazzled in the movie he says, "We have so much time and so little to do, strike that, reverse it." That's how I feel. So for those of you who are listening, I'm going to tell you right now, go ahead and listen and enjoy. But you're going to want to come back with your scriptures and a journal and scripture markers. For those of you who are there with your scriptures, get all that stuff out. I have scripture markers, pens, journal, I am ready to mark up my scriptures because I am with two of the most seasoned teachers that I have had the privilege of knowing. And I have asked them to help me teach this section. It is such a unique section and I cannot wait to introduce it to you. So grab your scriptures and let's dig in.

Okay, so I have a quick disclaimer for us. And it comes from President Oaks' General Conference talk in April of 2020. And his talk is titled "The Great Plan". And he talked about it in there, that there are four great assurances that will assist us on our journey through mortality. But the fourth one is what struck me that I loved. He says in this fourth and finally, "...modern revelation teaches us that our progress need not conclude with the end of mortality". And then he said this, "Little has been revealed about this important assurance." Okay, when I heard that, I loved it, because with this lesson today, there's still so much we don't know. So please resist the temptation to assign your loved ones to certain kingdoms, or to confirm that your cousin is indeed a son of perdition. (laughter) You guys can laugh out loud, you don't have to hold your laughter in! (all laugh)

Laryssa 4:41

But that's the problem. We can't ever get to the law, because we are so concerned about these people. And that's great, but we have to know those, that we have to understand these principles are we won't be able to understand the law.

Tammy 5:00

Oh, and how many times did you teach this in school and your kid is like, so if so and so does this, does that mean that, because I have an uncle who does, goin, and you're like, No, that is not, he is not going to the telestial kingdom. So we're just gonna,

Laryssa 5:13

We want so much to checklist things, right? And so to be able to say, if you can just give me the checklist, the do's and the don'ts and the qualifications, then I know where I'm going to fit and that feels tidy and comfortable. But there's nothing about the mortal experience that's not messy. I mean, and this is messy.

Jennifer 5:32

That's wonderful. Yeah.

Tammy 5:34

So, we're just going to focus on what happens after all is said and done, according to Section 76 and like Laryssa said, understanding the law. That's what this is all about. So the title for Section 76 is "The Vision". In quotations on any side, just put 'The Vision'. And then you can also put 'Degrees Of Glory'. So Laryssa and Jen, just kind of jump in, like, what are some of the things that you want to talk about just regarding the vision, the history behind it. Do you have anything you want to add?

Jennifer 6:04

You know, when you're talking about this idea of assigning and trying to make this checklist, that really, the mortal experience is messy. And I love the way Brigham Young describes his experience with this, that we read it in the revelations and context. And he talks about what a struggle this is, and again, I think it's so important to try and get into a context because many of us grew up with the doctrine, we grew up with the scriptures. And we think it's the way it always was. But we forget this restoration process and that for Joseph, salvation was such an important theme; it took him to the grove. And so now he's saying, Okay, I want to figure out salvation. And it doesn't make sense to me that there would be a heaven or a hell. But this is what they know. This is what their experience was.

And I heard someone say this the other day, that Calvinism takes our guilt to the like, 100th degree, right? To the 100th degree. And so listen to what Brigham says, right? He says, "It was a great trial to many, some apostasized because God had a place of salvation in due time for all.' Young himself had difficulty accepting the idea. He, and this is quotes from Brigham Young: "My traditions were such that when the vision came first to me, it was directly contrary and opposed to my former education. I said, Wait a little; I did not reject it, but I could not understand it. I could not believe it at first, why the Lord was saving; grace would save everybody", you know.

And so this idea of engaging in the wrestle, saying, I'm not totally clear on what this is about, or even what I'm supposed to do to make sense of it. To me, it's very comforting to hear Brigham Young say, 'I heard this, and I wanted to rebel against it, but I sat with it' And this is going to be something actually, that I think we see throughout the vision, an invitation to sit with it, to ponder it, to be still with it, to let it really marinate with us and trust that the Lord is going to guide us with how to act.

Tammy 8:06

Oh, my gosh, Jennifer, I loved that quote you just shared by Brigham Young. That is amazing when he says he couldn't imagine that God would save everyone. Because I mean, when you study section 76, it doesn't seem like he is. We were so caught up in this idea that the only people who are saved are the celestial kingdom people. But when you put that in that context that Telestial, Terrestrial, they're all being saved. That gives so much more power and meaning to this section.

Jennifer 8:33

I love that, too.

Laryssa 8:34

This is so not about the the background context. But there's that part where Joseph and and Sidney are in the vision and I believe it's a two hour, is it a two or three hour vision. And

Jennifer 8:48

Doesn't Philo Dibble talk about that right?

Tammy 8:51

Oh, it's the best. I have that quote from him.

Laryssa 8:54

Do you have it with you?

Tammy 8:55

Yeah, because it's one of my favorite quotes of Joseph Smith of all time.

Laryssa 9:02

So at the end of the vision, Philo Dibble recorded, "Joseph sat firmly and calmly all the time in the midst of a magnificent glory. But Sidney sat limp and pale, apparently as limber as a rag, observing, which Joseph remarked smilingly: 'Sidney is not used to it as I am'."

I love that. And I love the way you guys were talking about, Jen was talking about 'sit on it a little.' There is a work that is done spiritually. And spiritual work takes time and effort and experience. And you know, here Joseph's been at it since he was a, you know, 14 year old boy. And, you know, Sidney's not as used to it as Joseph is. And as we spend mttheyore and more time with the Lord, with the Holy Ghost learning line upon line, our ability to understand certain concepts become better. I love the way that it said, "Joseph said, smilingly", you know, to give that grace to other people that maybe they're not going to like, understand some of these concepts and doctrines as quickly as other people, they may need a little grace to understand that.

There are some, you know, some wrestlings that people are gonna, it's gonna be a moment for them. These are their wrestlings about the gospel and, and to have that patience is very, very key to become the the Zion people that I think the Lord wants us to be. I mean, just to add,

Jennifer 10:20

Well and even to add, I love what you're saying there. And Tammy, you kind of teed us up to this with this idea of, you know, I know, you're kidding sort of, that we compartmentalize who's going to go where and we make these assessments and judgments, but Laryssa, you kind of drive that point home, that I think the patience, and the generosity and grace that we give to each other in our process, is really vital to becoming a celestial person. And, and that will be a mark, you know, well, it's not explicitly stated in the text, I think that is a mark of, of our desire. And the need we have to just be gentle, and patient, and so kind with each other when we don't know all the circumstances of what's going on in someone getting to that place.

Tammy 11:13

Yeah. Yep. If you've ever had a spiritual experience and been tired after, or felt exhausted, that's what we're talking about. I mean, do you guys remember, when you first started teaching seminary? You'd come home exhausted at the end of each day; you just wanted to lay on your couch. Were you the same way?

Jennifer 11:29

Especially that first week back, right? You had the summer off, and that first week back you were just tired.

Tammy 11:37

Yeah, you're feeling the spirit, you're teaching with the spirit, hopefully, and you're having these moments. And so if anyone listening has ever felt tired after a spiritual experience, like, uh, then you know what we're talking about here and so let these moments just sit with you. Let it settle, let it just kind of think, about it and explore kind of what the Lord is trying to teach you with these moments. Lay on your bed, if you need to, after this episode. You might need to, it's going to be a lot. For both of you, thank you for what you shared.

It's so incredible to me that in Section 76, it's not just even a vision of what will happen after this life. But in verse 13, Joseph says those things which were from the beginning, and a lot of people equate this vision of Joseph, to the vision of Moses and the vision of Enoch. I mean, he is going to see so much. In fact, Joseph actually said about this, quote, "I could explain 100-fold more than I ever have of the glories of the kingdoms manifested to me in the vision, were I permitted, and were the people prepared to receive them." So we're just barely, I feel like we're barely scratching the surface. And like President Oaks said, we don't know it all, but what we do know we're going to talk about. So here's what you need to know about section 76. There are five visions in all, five visions. So we're going to touch upon each one. And the very first vision is going to be taught to us by Jen and I cannot wait. So Jen, you're up.

Segment 2 12:58

....

Tammy 13:06

Okay, here we go. In your scriptures, you're going to bracket off verses, I mean, it's kind of verses 1 through 23. But it's specifically 20 through 23, and you're going to label it 'The Son'. Put 'Vision # 1', and then write 'The Son'. There's some beautiful wording starting in verse 1, I just have to point this out when verse one says:

"Hear, O ye heavens, and give ear, O earth...." When the Lord is calling out to the universe, to listen to what he's saying, not just here on earth, EVERYBODY. And now Jen, I'm gonna turn it over to you.

Jennifer 13:40

I love that you just drew us to that verse. And this idea of the inhabitants, right? Do you remember the first time you heard President Nelson talk to us about the work of salvation on both sides of the veil? And something about him, the language he used, and I went back and looked just recently since his time as the Prophet, to the last three years, he's actually said it before. But in looking at that, and to say, he's just punched through the veil for me, and helped me to see a context that my life is not just about me, and that this mortal experience is just a part of it, right? It's just a piece of it.

But that these verses to me are such a stunning invitation to really embrace the Savior, the Son. And this has been my experience throughout the Doctrine and Covenants this year, that those first verses of every section, it seems, are showing me more of the character, nature and love of Jesus Christ. I kept in my mind, I was singing <i>How Great the Wisdom and the Love<b>, that beautiful hymn, that we can really praise Him and trust Him.

And so there's so much of what's happening in these opening verses, that for me have been such a nice correlation to President Nelson and his ministry. Hear Him. One of the reasons I think it matters specifically in this section and let me take you into a couple of verses and tell me if you see that I've missed any reference to the spirit. Okay, and so in looking at this, verse 10 is the first one I see. And like I said, if you see another, call me on this.

"10 For by my Spirit will I enlighten them,.......' and maybe we make a list here, where we start to go through and this might even show us the process. Now. I also think there's merit to us seeing a pattern of the First Vision that's repeating itself here. They're turning to the scriptures. Sidney and Joseph are in the scriptures, they're in a translation process. In fact, they're working, basic, and I think that's so important that they're working they're in John 5, verse 29. And they have this question about the resurrection. Well, what took Joseph to the grove in the first place? Question, scriptures, right?

And then this desire for their salvation, trying to understand salvation. We know that Joseph went to the grove, not so much about the question which of the churches is right, but where is salvation? Salvation is the theme for the Prophet. Throughout his life, there's this golden thread of salvation. And it's beautiful, because I wonder how many times he's thinking, Well, I didn't anticipate this being bigger than me. And I think that God does that with us, that we go with maybe trying to figure something about ourselves, but the Lord says, So much bigger than you and this moment. It's about the work that you can do as an instrument in My hands.

And that's one of the stunning realities to me of the Prophet Joseph. And then this idea 'We saw him,' and the same pattern that he experienced, the same that we were talking about with Sidney not being so used to it, that there's work in this process.

But I skipped my point. So let's go back to this idea of the Spirit, and how necessary the Holy Ghost is to each of us in knowing Jesus Christ. And that it's not just about us knowing Him, it's witnessing Him and sharing that with others, blessing the lives of others, because we do know Him. So let's make a list of the places that Spirit comes up in this first chunk of verses. I see it first in verse 10.

"10 For by my spirit, will I enlighten them, and by my power.....", and I think in many instances, this is synonymous, that our power really does come through the Spirit, don't you think? And then in verse 11, we get the next spirit that "We, Joseph Smith, Jr., and Sidney Rigdon, being in the spirit.....". And this opportunity, we have to be able to say, what is the Holy Ghost look like for me, feel like for me, how do I know I am in the spirit? What preparation do I do? What's the readiness? How do I get to that place? Because that's how their "12...... eyes were opened and our understandings were enlightened". What mission do you need for yourself and for others. And I know God will bless us with a vision.

Remember in Mosiah, Chapter 5 when Benjamin's teaching, and he's teaching the words of the angel, and I, every time I get to chapter 4 of Mosiah 4, and they're all crying out with one voice, that the atonement will be applied in their lives. I think as a teacher, how many times I'd be like, we did it, we got there. Hallelujah, right? But Benjamin, in his wisdom knows that they're now ready. They're ready to learn, and they're ready to change. And what happens now is in chapter 5 of Mosiah, verse 2, they cry again,

"2........ with one voice, saying: Yea, we believe all the words which thou has spoken unto us; and also, we know of their surety and truth, because of the Spirit of the Lord Omnipotent, which has wrought a mighty change in us, or in our hearts, that we have no more disposition to do evil, but to do good continually."

And this is desire. It's not so much that they've attained that state, but they have a desire. But then verse three,

"3 And we, ourselves, also, through the infinite goodness of God, and the manifestations of his Spirit, have great views of that which is to come;....."

Here's the vision, that there are so many possibilities through the Spirit, and Sidney and Joseph are really illustrating this for us. Okay, so then we got to verse 12. And then I think the next instance of the spirit is in verse 18.

"18 Now, this caused us to marve,l for it was given unto us of the Spirit."

Now one of the things about the spirit that I think is so necessary, they give us in the next verse:

"19 And while we meditated upon these things, the Lord touched the eyes of our understandings and they were opened, and the glory of the Lord shown round about."

Tammy 20:12

Oh, I like that you pointed that out how important it is to receiving things of the Spirit, that meditation.

Jennifer 20:17

Yeah. And then for them to be able to now witness Jesus. I don't know what COVID was like for you, with so much isolation. I confess I sort of loved most of it. I'm, believe it or not, an introvert by nature, and to be able to retreat, and to not have to leave this little space was really renewing for me, and gave me a chance to be still, in a different way. But now I feel kind of like the Jaredites on the shore, where the Lord's like, You can't pitch your tent there forever, sis.

Laryssa 20:57

Yeah,

Jennifer 20:58

Right? But this idea of the stillness, and even the way President Nelson has asked us to consider, the things that we've learned and we'll never forget. And to think, you take that, you take the stillness, the discomfort, the anxiety, all the different things, the emotions, all the emotions. And now it's like this new normal, getting launched back into the wild sea, taking us to a promised land. Well, what happens next in the vision is Jesus. Jesus is always on the other side of that. And we have to still ourselves, to be able to find Him and to see Him.

"20 And we beheld the glory of the Son, on the right hand of the Father, and received of his fullness;

"21 And saw the holy angels, and them who are sanctified before his throne, worshiping God....."

And I think there's an element there, too, that as we see these angels worshiping God, worship is part of the way that we still ourselves, the way that we feel the Holy Ghost. And to be able to really assess and evaluate that, we now have an opportunity to really figure out what the worship looks like, and to worship Him forever and ever.

"22 And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give him: That he lives.

"23 For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only begotten of the Father-"

This is stunning to me. But I think that it's something every one of us can seek this Jesus. We can have these straightforward experiences with Him by the Holy Ghost by virtue of our covenants, and that we can approach Him, know Him, and then witness it.

Tammy 22:52

You know, Jen, I want to go back for a second. You made the statement a couple of times that the one thing Joseph wanted the most was salvation, right? He saught - is that how you said it - that he's seeking for salvation for him and for all of the saints. And I had just connected this for the first time as you were saying that, and then in this vision, he will see Jesus Christ. Jesus's name in Hebrew means Salvation. He seeks salvation. And then right here, he gets to see Salvation; he will see Jesus Christ. Oh my gosh, I can't believe I've never connected that. I love that you just did that for me!

Jennifer 23:28

And you took it beyond what I even had thought, you know, in doing that, but I think it prioritizes some things for us, doesn't it? When with the Holy Ghost, right, and the stillness, the readiness, but to seek this Jesus, right? Moroni says to seek this Jesus.

Tammy 23:44

So good.

Jennifer 23:45

But more than anything, as I've contemplated these verses, for me it's truly an invitation to sit with the Savior. And to be able to say, What does that mean for me today? And I don't think it's just on Sunday taking the Sacrament, I think it's every day. I need Jesus, and I want Him to be such an integral part of my life.

And so, as you're looking at these verses, my invitation to all of us is to be able to ask the questions: What does it look like for me to prioritize this? To say, I really, truly want to have a straightforward experience. I'm quoting Elder Holland there, right? to have this direct and straightforward experience with Jesus Christ today. And it is possible. I think that's one of the things we do in our comparing, is that we think, Oh, yeah, sure. Tammy, Laryssa, Jen, whomever, they can have Jesus in their life, they're good. Well, we're not that good. (laughter) And the reality is, is that it's a wrestle, it's a struggle. It's a wrestle and a struggle, and maybe we're not as used to it.

Tammy 24:49

Well, and so far as we have learned this year, I mean, Sidney Rigdon, he struggled, you know, he totally struggled. And here he is having this vision with Joseph Smith. So there is no mention of perfection in that equation, of having that experience of feeling the Spirit, then following the promptings and then having this, this whole incredible experience. So yeah, I'm so glad you pointed that out and that you issued us that challenge. I'm gonna write that down. I'm gonna take that challenge, Jen. So thank you. That was so good.

Okay, that is our discussion of the First Vision titled 'The Son.' And so now we're going to start with vision number 2 in the next segment, and Laryssa, what a great setup for you. I can't wait to hear what you're going to teach us. So we'll turn the time over to Laryssa next.

Segment 3 25:36

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Tammy 25:39

Okay, here we go everyone, vision number 2. Bracket off verses 25 through 49. It's a big one. And the title for all of these verses. It's kind of long, but it's 'Premortal Life, Fall of Satan, Sufferings of Perdition. Oooh, Laryssa gets Son of Perdition. Oh, we're gonna find out that no one's cousin qualifies. Hit it, Laryssa, what do you got to teach us about this, cuz this is some heavy stuff.

Laryssa 26:04

This is heavy and hard, especially because as we look at principles and doctrines, we then do start to look at our friends and our loved ones. And we say, Oh, what about this, what about that? And at the end of the day, the only person that I can bring to God is me. That's it. That's it. I am the only one, I mean, even, you know, for those of you who've been in the temple, it's about me getting to the Celestial room alone, right? dThat's it. It is about me and God. But when I read these scriptures, I have to read them for me. And I have to read them to understand so that I can teach and bring other people with me to God, as much as I can.

Tammy 26:24

Great disclaimer.

Laryssa 26:53

We first need to understand something about Lucifer, right? And we learn about Lucifer in 25. And there are only a few things that we know from the scriptures, this going back to the President Oaks' statement that you brought up Tammy, right? Little has been revealed, quite frankly about many of the things we think we know a lot about. There's very little revealed. And so here we go into 25 and we can checkmark the things that have been revealed about him, right?

# 1 - He, Lucifer was an angel of God in authority in the presence of God.

# 2 - He rebelled against the only Begotten, the Son whom the father loved who was in the bosom of the Father. And

# 3 - Because of those actions, he was dressed down from the presence of God and the Savior, right? So if we, like Nephi, are likening ourselves unto the Scriptures, right? we need to understand that if we're going through what Jennifer's saying, these beautiful visions that are going to help us introduce ourselves to the Son, we need to be careful then about the way that we behave and react and are training ourselves. Because even one of those who are in authority, Lucifer, fell, right?

'Lucifer' means Luke, means 'bringer of light, shining one'. And so I think this is a stark warning to us to be careful. It is a time to really, really look to ourselves, and look to the way that we look at God and look at God's authority. Lucifer, as I understand it, didn't have a physical body and has never gone through a mortal experience. And as I understand it, was trying to present something that he hadn't experienced, as the way that it should be. Isn't that interesting? Perhaps understanding that God, who has more knowledge than us, we should respect that a little bit more.

I had a little cute nephew. And I hope he never listens to this show, but I'm going to tell a little story about him, love him to pieces. But when we were together, once, we had gone out to eat something, he goes, I'll pay for it. And I looked over at him, you know, all of eight years. Oh, you're gonna pay for it? Yeah, just give me your debit card and I'll take care of that. Oh, O K. And little later, you know, after our meal, right? He goes "Here, give me the keys and I'll drive home. Okay, I love you so much, but your feet can't touch the pedals!

There's some experiences that you haven't gone through to give you the qualifying ability to do the action that you want to take. And I think that was the huge fall for Lucifer and I think that's the problem with many of us. We think I know this and this and this about the scriptures. So therefore, I can equate these two things. And because we don't have the experience, we can't, we can't equate it. So trust me, I'll teach you how to drive. Don't you worry about that. And you'll have the experiences to be able to do these things. But there are some laws and rules and experiences that you have to have before you have the ability to do what you want to do. And I think that was the huge problem with Lucifer, and those who may follow in that footstep, right? Any other thoughts before I move?

Tammy 30:09

Well I just never considered that perspective before that he tried to do something he had no knowledge of. I've never considered that, Laryssa. I really liked that. And then that's us here. Like, Let me tell you, God, how things are gonna go. And he's like, Well, you know, it's your first time. It's your first rodeo, actually. And it's not His.

Laryssa 30:28

Right? And isn't that what parenting is so great for that? Because you do have your children that come up to you and say things like that. And you're like, If I were your age at age 12, I totally understand why you would want to do it that way. But I am now in my 40s. I've had a few decades being an adult. And I know why that won't work, you know, and I think having humility to understand that even though I'm in my 40s, and of course, I know everything, right? God knows more. Way, way more than I do, right? We have not arrived, in our 40s. So, things to think about.

But I think the thing that is, then, really, really vital is in looking in verses 26 and 27. It's vital to understand the nature of goodness, right? The nature of goodness is that when people fall, it is sorrowful, for all. in 26,

"26.......Perdition, the heavens wept over him---he was Lucifer, a son of the morning." And I love that there's an exclamation point in verse 27. A son of the morning just fell! Right there is some real emotion, power-packed into that. I think we don't understand because we're veiled, but if we truly understood how intense that was for us, to have someone that we love come to a point where they are doing so much damage and destruction. That's a painful thing for all of us, right? Any thoughts on that before we move? What do you guys think?

Tammy 32:05

I wanted to cry when you talked about it. It is so sad.

Laryssa 32:10

It is sad. And atually, if we have a moment, if we go to Third Nephi, Chapter 9, you know, where all the destruction is happening. And Satan is there laughing, right? And in Moses 7(:26), there's a great chain in his hand and darkness around the earth and he is laughing. And if we understand the true nature and character of who we're trying to follow, father, mother, those in heaven, the Savior, they weep over sorrow and destruction. And Satan laughs over it.

Tammy 32:42

You know, what's interesting. I, I underlined 'wept over him'. And I just wrote down below. So there's a poem that Joseph Smith will then write, years later, about Section 76. It's so fun to go and compare and read the poem, read Section 76. But what's interesting is in verse 26 where it says "wept over him", the poem actually says, "tears dropped, like dew". And it just, that just changed for me like, oh, to weep, yes, but to have tears drop like dew. That's how sad we were. And to define perdition as 'the lost one'. And he's the consummate lost one. But think about when you lose, gosh, if I lose my child for more than 30 seconds, I go from zero to kidnapped like that. Like, okay, you can't believe how fast I do. I can't handle it, like where?... Oh my gosh, so how, to be Yeah, to be called the lost one, and then you become his son, a son of the last one.

Laryssa 33:35

Right? And then the word damned, right? What do we do when we dam up a river? The progress is dammed. There's no flowing anymore. It's the end, it's stopped. Sad understanding of this being, and then what he's trying to do. You know?

Tammy 33:50

Yeah. Keep going, keep going. I love it.

Laryssa 33:52

Okay, so we understand that in verse 28, Satan, Lucifer has now become Satan, that old serpent, the devil who rebels against God, and seeks to take the kingdom of God and Christ away from God and Christ, right? And he makes war with the saints. And here's some things that I think again, if we're going through the Scriptures, and we're reading the scriptures for what we are, we need to understand some basic tools, right? These verses from 30 to 38 and then again, 43 through 49, these are people who Satan makes war with, and they are overcome by Satan, right? They don't allow themselves to be overcome through the power of the Savior Jesus Christ.

"31 Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers there have, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power---

"32 -They are the sons of perdition".

"33 - they are vessels of wrath".

34 - scary things, right? They are the ones who are part of spiritual death forever. This is a scary place to be. And so instead of going, Oh, this person or that person, we need to understand the state of, if I defy the power of God, if I defy the power of Jesus Christ, then Am I becoming like the devil? Again, I'm not putting anybody's name in there. I'm just saying, what characteristics am I bringing into my life? One, a big one in 33?

Tammy 35:30

Well, I was going to say, Laryssa when you just said that-what's so intriguing about this is in verse 28, when he's called Satan, and then he's called the devil. In Hebrew, Satan means adversary or enemy. But devil in Greek means one who separates. And so when you think about if, who you're following, who your father becomes. If it's Satan, he is absolutely separating you from our Father. He is separating, he is dividing us. And when we do that, when we follow him, we've divided ourselves

Laryssa 35:59

from God, we're not unified with him anymore, which is a beautiful setup for what we're going to talk about with telesital, you kow, but we'll talk about that later. But it's interesting to me in 33, they are vessels of wrath. What is wrath? Anger. What is the main tools, 2 Nephi 28, that Satan's gonna use for, for people in the last days? He will stir them up to anger against that which is good, right? Let's say I'm listening.

And please, please note that it happens to all of us. We become angry to policy; we become angry at something that we hear; we become angry at a topic in General Conference, right? I remember hearing a talk, it really triggered me emotionally. And I remember going, Okay, I'm gonna need to put that away for a minute. I'm going to need to wait it out and a little bit later, I got down on my knees and prayed and spent some time with the Lord and listened to it through the Spirit instead of through my anger. And then I was able to understand what the message was for me and my life and my family.

Tammy 36:59

In your studies of these verses, I think a lot of us are wondering this, then, What makes a son of perdition? Like, what do you got to do?

Laryssa 37:07

I know, and that's, that's the scary point. Because we know according to, if you go to <i>Miracle of Forgiveness<b>, this is Spencer W. Kimball teaching in <i>Miracle of Forgiveness<b>. The sin against the Holy Ghost requires such knowledge that is manifestly impossible for the rank and file to commit such a sin, which is, it gives us a peace of, Oh, then I'm fine, right? Because I'm a rank and file, so I can't commit this sin. But what I would like to do is to take some time and look at what the Fall could look like.

So instead of me going, Oh, that will never happen because I'm not President Nelson. Maybe what I need to look at is, looking in verse 35,

"35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves, and put him unto an open shame."

If you go to Hebrews 6, verses 4 through 6, I would write that right by verse 35. So Hebrews 6, verses 4 through 6, this is a pretty intense one,

"4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

"5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

"6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

What I worry about is, if I find myself in a place where I'm going to do something that would deny the Savior, that would deny my loyalty to Him, to His church, to His Prophet, what are you training yourself to do? Because if you're training yourself to listen to the Holy Ghost, you won't be a son of perdition. You may have moments where you're like, agh, I'll listen. Okay, I'm sorry, Father, let me try again-do you know what I mean?- if you are trying to put yourself where you appreciate and love the Savior for His Atonement and what He's done for you, you will never become a son of perdition. If you put Heavenly Father first and do His will, you will never become a son of perdition. So those are the steps. So instead of saying, Wait, is that me"? Like, I'm going to become this, I'll never become that. I want to make sure that I will never do that in word, deed, thought or action, because of my love for God and my love for the things that I've become while living the way that He's asked me to live.

Tammy 39:31

Ah, beautiful, beautiful lesson Laryssa, beautiful. Well, I just love your challenge to all of us to think where we are. And I appreciate your own personal experience, because I have had that experience where there was a talk given that I was like, Agh, oh, all right, I want to read that again and study it a little bit more, and we all have that. It's okay to have those moments, but to turn to the Father and pray about it. That's the key. So, thank you Laryssa, for sharing that personal experience.

Laryssa 39:58

Well and look, I've just come to the Brigham Young moments, right? That here's Brigham Young in exactly that situation. And I think that the real key to that is to choose to do something iit, instead of shelve it or put it away or let it, let it really agitate you to the point that, eh, I'm out. Right? And it is to wait a little, vit some time and then wrestle with the Lord about it. Don't wrestle with your friends or the internet. Be like Jacob, right? Jacob wrestled with God about it, right, about his things when he had to wrestle in the night. I use that to teach. Our wrestle should be with our Heavenly Father, with our Savior. Not with the internet.

Tammy 40:47

Agh. Can you imagine if Enos had wrestled with his buddies? They would have been like ah, dude, you're fine.

Laryssa 40:53

You don't have to do anything.

Tammy 40:54

Let's go out to dinner. Yeah.

Laryssa 40:55

Can I have one more second. That whole hang loose attitude, it's not like we can't. Some of us are so wound up that we need to hang loose a little. Some of us are way too loose., we need to tighten a little, right? That's when the spirit will tell you what you are.

Tammy 41:11

Well, thank you, Laryssa. Thank you so much. Okay, now we are going to go the complete opposite, a complete extreme in discussion. We're going to do vision number three and I get to teach it and I can't wait to show you what it is. I got the, I'm the lucky one and I may have planned it that way, I'm not gonna lie. All right.

Segment 4 41:27

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Tammy 41:31

Okay, vision number three. Bracket off Doctrine and Covenants Section 76 we're gonna do verses 50 through 70. And then verses 92 through 96. And these verses are called 'The Celestial Glory'.

I get to talk about the Celestial Kingdom and I totally planned it because it's one of my favorite things to talk about. And you probably won't even be able to guess why. Because you'll be thinking, Oh, because it's so great. We'll be eating eclaires and singing songs. But there's actually some really cool things. It's one of my favorite things to teach, because I want to show you how easy it is to get there. A lot of times we think, Oh, I'm never gonna make it, it's gonna be so hard. I just think Satan has made it his full time job to convince us that no one's gonna make it, it's just too hard, and we just got to give up right now. So guess what we're gonna do: number the requirements, and there aren't that many.

So let's go into Section 76, verse 50; grab your pens, and let's number these qualifications. So I like this at the very beginning in verse 50, it says, they bare record. they saw and they heard that this is the testimony of the gospel of Christ concerning them who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just. Highlight that. I like the way they describe this resurrection, because it means it's a resurrection which is, to be just means to be upright, to be sincere in your actions and dealings with others. It's to be like Jesus Christ, and you can cross reference that with First Peter, chapter 3, verse 18. I'm just going to read it really quick.

"1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God,"

Now look back at that 'the just for the unjust'. In Greek, when we're talking about the just, that means Christ. Christ, and then the word For in Greek is actually 'in behalf of'. So it's saying Christ, in behalf of the unjust, who is us, that He might bring us to God. And I just, that's what the resurrection of the just is, those who accepted Jesus Christ, and so you don't have to be perfect, because here's the qualification starting in verse 51, we're going to number them.

# 1 -They are they who have received the testimony of Jesus. You've received the testimony of Him.

# 2 - believed on his name.

# 3 - baptized. I mean, how great is that! We're basically naming the Fourth Article of Faith, pretty much every eight year old.

# 4 - is by keeping the commandments that they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins.

# 5 - receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands. So you receive the gift to the Holy Ghost. So rlght there, eight year olds, you qualify on the day of baptism. Now, we have two more qualifications, though, because then after you're baptized,

# 6 - who overcome by faith. That's all about enduring to the end, your actions.

And then # 7 - sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true. And I've underlined 'who are just and true', and I drew a line and connected it right back to the resurrection of the just. You see how it's couched in that, it starts with it and ends? Because that's it. Those are the seven qualifications for getting into the Celestial Kingdom. And nowhere in any of those verses does it say, Well, and you gotta be perfect, and you gotta be, you know, without sin. I mean, it's just nowhere. It's the Fourth Article of Faith. Now, just knowing that for the two of you, how does that change the way you view getting into the Celestial Kingdom?

Jennifer 44:53

I just wonder what happened, right? Where along the line did we get this idea that it was going to be so complicated, or so hard and so unattainable in this topic of perfectionism.

Laryssa 45:09

I think it's when we started to sin, and we felt what spiritual death tasted like. And then we started to go, Oh, wait, I can't come back from this. I'm terrible, there's no way back, which is what Satan wants us to believe, right?

Tammy 45:22

Well that's his reality.

Laryssa 45:25

It's a really great point. It is his reality. Believing in Christ and believing Christ, become two different things, right? I believe that Christ can do those things. But I don't know that I believe them, for me. I don't know if I can feel clean again. Right? And that, isn't that what the Scriptures say? Right? That they receive the glory that they will accept, you know, and so you have to believe Him, too, when He says, You know, Jen, Tammy, everybody who's listening, you are forgiven. Now, let's start again, I love you. Let's start again.

Tammy 46:01

Yeah, so many chances. And then there's that one that kind of you get stuck with when it says, sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise. If you're wondering what that is, it's an act. So this is a great definition. It's an act that's sealed, it's approved by the Lord. And this is one of the definitions I've appreciated and I have it in my scriptures, it's by Bruce R. McConkie.

He says, "This name title is used in connection with the sealing and ratifying power of the Holy Ghost. That is, the power given to the Holy Ghost to approve the righteous acts of men and women so that those acts will be binding on Earth and in heaven." I mean, what a cool experience to have, have the Holy Ghost go, Yep, you did it, good job. I'm gonna, I'm gonna check that off and say I counted. Good enough. And I don't, I mean, I'm trying to think it's not something that happens after this life? Can it happen in this life? What are your thoughts?

Laryssa 46:53

Oh, yeah. I think, I think the way I try to help my students to understand this is I talk about the physical body that does the work, okay, my physical body went into the baptism, right? Did my spiritual, my inner, inner part, do the work that we're asking? And if the inside of me did it as well as the the physical part, so that's why people can't go to the temple and lie their way through the temple. You may be able to physically go there, you may be able to physically lie to your Bishop, but you cannot lie to the Holy Ghost. So that spiritual part of you has to do it. It can't be a pretend to be; it has to be I'm all in. And I really, truly am trying. And then I think the Holy Ghost can tell you at some point.

Tammy 47:37

Yeah, great definition of that, great explanation. What about you, Jen? Any thoughts?

Jennifer 47:43

I think there are, I don't know. I think a lot about the Holy Ghost. And this, this idea of being sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise, I think there are moments where we feel the ratification of the Spirit telling us, You were right, you did the right thing. And the more that we grow in that progression of knowing the Holy Ghost and the confidence that He gives us, like, I'm kind of still fixed on this idea of how you, He said, Look, this is basically the Fourth Article of Faith. And this idea of joyful repentance.

I was in Young Women's on Sunday, and it was the first time that I had recited the new theme orally with a group, it took my breath away.

Tammy 48:30

Why?

Jennifer 48:31

Well, as a Young Women leader, I always asked the young women to use the personal possessive pronouns to make it, I am. But to hear them say that and then the things they said to become like God, that they're daughters of Heavenly Parents, and I'm taking it out of order. But even that we joyfully repent. And in looking at that, that moment when I do joyfully change my mind, and the Spirit says, Yes. Isn't that being sealed? In some little teeny way? Isn't that some way of a progression to have my sins washed? And to receive the Holy Spirit? I've received Him and I'm overcoming that little bit of me.

It's kind of Alma 32, isn't it? Where I'm feeling this and it's no more an exercise of faith, but it's a knowledge, and to be able to say that, you've got me thinking and I really like the way you've got me thinking. I'm really into the mundane of the day. This is what I spend a lot of energy and how do I figure out the the joy in the monotony, knowing that the Holy Ghost is ratifying it, that He's saying, Yes, Jen, you're on the right track. And it's falling to my knees so weary every night and having Him say, Good on ya, you know, instead of the shame, He's not shaming me, I'm shaming me.

Tammy 49:55

Right. And to think that He can do that daily for us. My most personal experience with that is just as I, when I was single, it was after I would do a service, some type of service for someone and, and it was truly service. Sometimes a lot of my service when I was single was, hope this gets me married. Come on, you know, that's true ladies. You're laughing.

Laryssa 50:22

Are you paying the extra Fast Offering?

Tammy 50:25

You'll get a date that weekend. And so I just, but there are times when I really have done service out of the goodness of my heart, because I just love that person. And you feel, you feel the Spirit and that is ratified. That is the Spirit going, Yep. And then as a mom, or as a spouse, as a daughter - I like how you put that Jen - like, the spirit will ratify your actions that day. And if you get on your knees and say I'm sorry, boy, that was a rough day and you ask and He's like, Great. We're good. Ratified. Move on. You know? I just, I love that.

Laryssa 50:56

Can I share a scripture that goes along with it? The same idea of the Holy Ghost ratifying. I love the way that you talked about being a mom, right? Don't you hug your kids at the end of the day and just go, You're still part of the family and I love you. We're helping you, you'll grow up. It's okay. We had a hard day today but I love you. Because you're in the covenant, right? You're in the family. And that's what, that's what the covenant with Jesus Christ is. Right? It is that I will work with you again and again and again and you're not kicked out. Go to Doctrine and Covenants 88, verse four. And in this one, He's talking about the Holy Spirit of Promise.

Well, He's also talking about the Second Comforter. This comforter is the promise which I gave unto you of eternal life, even the glory of the celestial kingdom, right? Someone once called that' the downpayment, of what you'll have in the future', right? The down payment of your celestial life. And I'm sure you can testify too, that feeling of love and care and acceptance. That is what we are working toward. And so if there are those moments that I feel frustrated or angry or am aupset, when Satan comes in and puts doubts in my head, I think, Okay, I need to separate these two because I prefer the feeling, the emotion, what's happening when I'm with God and when I'm without. And I hate that feeling. And so that downpayment, that daily love that you can get through the Scriptures, through prayer, that sacred, a sacred downpayment. Isn't that a beutiful thought?

Tammy 52:26

It IS a beautiful thought, and I want to use that, Laryssa. I'm going to put that right in my scriptures, because, draw a line after the end of verse 53. Because at the end of verse 53 are the qualifications, and then 54 through 70 is what you get with your 'downpayment'. I mean, that is SO good. Look at all you get, because if you're thinking, Oh, and the rest of these verses are things we have to do, no. Isn't that incredible, that the Lord will spend four verses on what you got to do to get there. And then He's gonna spend all the rest of this on, Look what I'm going to give you.

And it's so cool. He says, first of all, In 54: These "....are they who are the church of the Firstborn", and highlight 'Firstborn'. That's Jesus Christ. So anytime you see church of the Firstborn, it means the Church of Jesus Christ, because Jesus was the firstborn. I love how it says they are they who are in His hands. The Father has given all things in verse 55. You are in verse 56, you're priests and kings and priestesses, and queens, let's be clear about that. 57,58 - oh, I love 58. "Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons (and daughters) of God -"

"59 Wherefore, all things are theirs". I always think like, you get the whole enchilada, the whole burrito, you get everything, all things are theirs.

But then how beautiful is verse "60 And they shall overcome all things." Like, it's, it's a future. You haven't quite yet, but you will, they shall overcome all things with the help of Jesus Christ. And so if you just keep reading these verses, it is incredible, but we have to look at verse 67. Because again, going back to how we started, so many of us think that not many will make it. Look what verse 67 says. Laryssa, will you read that for us.

Laryssa 54:00

Love to. "67 These are they who have come to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and the church of Enoch and of the Firstborn."

Tammy 54:09

Now let's put a cross reference: put Revelation, chapter 7, verses 9 through 10. And if you turn to the Book of Revelation, in chapter 7, verses 9 through 10. Look what Revelation says about how many people are going to make it. Oh, I love this verse. And Jen, when you get there, will you read it please.

Jennifer 54:26

Okay, Revelation 7: "9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

"10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb."

Tammy 54:52

Ahhh, so good. We're gonna make it, you're gonna make it. Those of you listening, you're going to make it. God loves you, and I always say this at the end of every episode, "You're God's favorite". And all you have to do is be facing His way, face towards Him. Whatever that looks like, it could be something as simple as maybe just saying a prayer today. If you haven't prayed in a long time, pray, read your scriptures, just whatever you need to do to get on that path. And if you're already on it, stay on it, and join us and be with us and wrestle. It's okay to be uncomfortable. As we've learned from Tamu, it's okay to be uncomfortable, let the Holy Ghost do its job to comfort you. That's the whole point of all of this. So that's Celestial Kingdom. I know, I took the best one. So, that's the end of our vision. So here we go. In the next segment, Jen's up - we're going to talk vision number 4.

Segment 5 55:41

....

Tammy 55:45

Okay, so vision number 4, bracket off verses 71 through 80. And verses 71 through 80 is the terrestrial world. And so Jennifer, I'm going to turn it over, you teach us about the terrestrial kingdom.

Jennifer 55:58

Okay. There was one thing when we were talking celestial kingdom that I thought was fascinating. You may notice that I kind of drill into repetition and words. We talked earlier about the devil being an isolator. And then you'll notice the repetition in the celestial glory of ALL.

Tammy 56:18

Oh, I love that!

Jennifer 56:20

Yep. Over and over again, the Lord uses the word All. Christ is the great gatherer; He will always draw ALL that will choose to. Satan is the great isolator. And to see that distinction is really pretty stunning. And that when you brought out that definition of the devil from the Greek, you said it was two separate, one who separates or isolates, then that really gave power to that punch of seeing who that was. So kind of a fun thing. Now,

Tammy 56:53

Hold on. I gotta write that down. See, did I tell you guys, everyone listening? You're going to want journals and Okay. Okay. Carry on, Jen.

Jennifer 57:04

Okay. We've got to anchor back to the statement that you've started us with, with President Oaks, that we don't know everything. And so when we're looking at the telestial kingdom, this is general. And we have to be so clear. What do we have 10 verse verses or something like that?

Tammy 57:21

He is one to assign family members too, I probably think,

Jennifer 57:25

Yeah, it's fine. But here's the thing. I was studying it. I kept thinking, how many of my friends who have not received the gospel of Jesus Christ and don't want it? This really will be the heaven they imagine? Yeah, I really do think it will be and I don't have anything to back that up. Other than just a hunch. I just think they're going to be satisfied. They're going to be happy there. And

Tammy 57:49

Oh, there's a great Hugh Nibley quote that supports that 100%, Jen. And he says that 'when all is said and done, we'll be getting exactly what we want.'

Jennifer 57:57

I know exactly what you're talking about, right? And so you look at that, and you say, Oh, poor them, they got the B, but, but it's not a B, it's what they wanted. And that's an important thing to think about when we tee up the next kingdoms. To be able to say, This is according to your deeds, it's according to the use of your agency, it's your choice. And God honors agency. To see that, to feel that, and to know that, I think is really pretty beautiful.

Okay, the general description, I would say the general description of the terrestrial kingdom is 'honorable souls who have a testimony of Jesus, but who do not choose to receive the fullness of the gospel'. And so you're right. Yes, it's terrestial. I'm saying telestrial, aren't I? I didn't remember my 'sea turtle'. So that terrestrial in looking at this, here's what I want to point out. The word Received keeps coming up.

Tammy 58:53

I just noticed that! I'm so glad you brought that up. Carry on. I just saw that, yes. That is an important word in this description.

Jennifer 59:02

I think so, too. And so when we're looking at it, we're trying to reconcile it and make sense of it. Based on what you've just taught us of the celestial kingdom, baptism and pressing forward along the covenant path really qualifies us. And so we don't have to worry, say, Oh, I'm going to the terrestrial kingdom, based on the reception, the receiving we give and so let's draw those words out. And, and help me look for 'em, you guys. And maybe we just kind of take some turns. Where do you see it first, the word Received?

Tammy 59:34

So it starts in verse 71, right?

Jennifer 59:36

Correct. Okay, so what is it that we what are we receiving there?

Tammy 59:41

So it talks about, it differs from those who are from the church of the Firstborn, we just talked about, the Church of Jesus Christ who have received the fullness of the Father. So those in the terrestrial have not received the fullness of the Father.

Jennifer 59:52

Right. Where's the next one?

Laryssa 59:55

74,

Jennifer 59:55

Right? It's in 74. And what is it they received? Yeah, received not, what?

Laryssa 1:00:00

A testimony of Jesus in the flesh, that received it after they witnessed it in the flesh.

Jennifer 1:00:06

So what is that, Laryssa? What's it saying?

Laryssa 1:00:09

If you receive the testimony of the Savior while you lived in the earth life in your mortal body. According to how I read it, it's the hardest thing in the world, right? Because then you have the questions of the people that you love, but let's just talk doctrine. Just go.

Jennifer 1:00:26

It's in the spirit world, right? It's those that didn't in life, but in the spirit world, isn't that what that's saying?

Tammy 1:00:32

Well, I'm wondering if 'the afterwards' means at the very end of the millennium, at the very last resurrection? Like, here you have chances in the spirit world. Like, when it says afterwards, in my mind, I interpret that to mean, the last, very end judgment day, and now they're like, Yeah, okay, maybe.

Jennifer 1:00:51

Sure, I'll take it.

Laryssa 1:00:52

That feels more like telestial, doesn't it? Because terrestial, they get to still, even terrestial, I believe get to

Tammy 1:00:58

Pretty bad. I mean, I think receiving a testimony is the last of their thoughts in telestial. I don't know.

Jennifer 1:01:09

Well, we do know, they're honorable, right? They're honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men. And then we've got another receive in verse 76. These are they who receive of His glory, but not of His fullness." Now, what does that mean then? And as you start to unpack it and think about it, isn't that saying they don't receive the gospel of Jesus Christ, The Restored Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints? That's my interpretation. What do you think as you look at that?

Tammy 1:01:43

Well, you know what keeps coming to me with this word, only because I've been studying section 84, the oath and the covenant of the priesthood. In the actual verses about the oath and covenant, it uses the word receive, right, and how that word receive in that context means ordinances, and having, and because anyone can receive - women and men can both partake of the oath and covenant. And so it says to those who obtain, and then later it says, those who receive, and I don't think it's a nonchalant word. I don't think it's like, 'eh, maybe I want it, maybe I don't'. Like, to receive is a physical action that is a part of all the covenants we make.

Jennifer 1:02:23

Absolutely. Yeah. In fact, that's kind of where I was going with this. They're not motivated to accept and obey the fullness of the gospel. I have a testimony of Jesus, but there's not this action towards ordinances and covenants that qualify us for the celestial kingdom.

Tammy 1:02:42

Yes, I think that's what it's talking about here.

Jennifer 1:02:45

I think so, too.

Laryssa 1:02:47

Well, and it does talk about that in 79 and maybe you're going here, Jen. Stop me if I'm stepping on your toes, but that they are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus, right? That this idea of what does the moon do? The moon waxes and wanes, right? Sometimes in with the Savior, sometimes not. But if we're training ourselves to be celestial, we're training ourselves to be with the Savior, no matter what. To always be bright and shining. And, and with terrestrial it kind of makes it seem like, I ebb and flow, I kind of go in a pattern, a cycle, if you will.

Jennifer 1:03:22

We haven't talked about the moon, right? But this is what this kingdom is compared to- is the moon, which gets its light from the sun. It's not its own entity. It's not its own unique, you know, whereas the sun is. You could interchange s-u-n/s-o-n, right? Where the power, the light, the glory, the fullness is all encompassed there, whereas the moon draws the power from the sun. Now that might help us to understand the word Valiant too.

Tammy 1:03:56

I like that.

Jennifer 1:03:57

What about it? Tell me more.

Tammy 1:03:59

Well, I just like that idea that the moon is constantly changing. It waxes and wanes, because we just learned that last year with my daughter in eighth grade, and we had to learn waxing, crescent, waning, whatever. But 1st Corinthians, chapter 15 is the chapter that teaches us about the different degrees: the sun, the moon and the stars, for anyone who wants to cross reference that. But there is something about that word Valiant, and waxing and waning, I like this.

Jennifer 1:04:27

But I just think it gives us such a space to self-assess. And that was what it came down to for me in studying the terrestrial kingdom, that this was then for me to say, Where am I in receiving in valiancy, and we have one more receiving and it's in verse

"77 These are the they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fullness of the Father." And so again, just this idea of ordinances, covenants, the fullness of the gospel. I love going to the Webster 1828 Dictionary. And really, what did the word mean for Joseph at his time? but 'to receive', 1828 dictionary, is 'to embrace, to allow, to hold, to retain, to welcome, to be endowed with'. Isn't that something? Yeah, to bear with and suffer. And so taking up the cross of Jesus in discipleship is fully receiving, to believe in.

And so my brain went immediately, I love the talk Elder Bednar gave in the Fall of 2010, "Receive the Holy Ghost". And again, this goes back to where I started in talking about the way this vision all unfolded was by the power of the Holy Ghost, by the Holy Ghost. But as he unpacks this, he's talking about, do we have a sincere desire to have the Holy Ghost in our lives? Are we appropriately inviting the Holy Ghost into our lives? And are we faithfully obeying God's commandments? And so receive. Receive all that the Father has. I was trying to give my child a bite of something the other day that I thought was so good, but he just kept his mouth closed so tight, and he didn't want it. And as much as I was trying to jam it, I thought, I've got to stop. I'm gonna break his teeth. But I wanted him to know how good it was, he had to choose. And he didn't want it, but you have to make that decision to receive. And then to have the law, the covenant, the blessings of the commandments really functioning into our lives.

Tammy 1:06:43

That definition of receive changed everything right then when you said that. Because when you see that word receive, I just imagine a plate of cookies being handed to me, I'm like, thank you. Like, it's that easy. But when you defined receive as embrace, allow, endowed with, to bear with, to suffer, it incorporates a lot. Like, it is physical action of more than just taking, like, I really appreciated that definition of the word received, because not many people have had that opportunity.

Jennifer 1:07:14

Yeah, thank you. And I do think, I mean, and again, let's nuance it, let's get really granular. What does it look like every day? How do I receive the Holy Ghost? And I'd like to suggest if that's our only priority, then we've done some good in the day. Sister Eubank, in the BYU Women's Conference, she talked about being a Maximizer. And it so resonates with me, because I am a maximizer. And she talked about how she everyday makes these long lists and gets overwhelmed with them. But if she can just whittle it down to one thing, then she knows she's had success with the Lord, because then they all add up.

Every day, I ask: What's the one thing today? And you know what's interesting, is more times than not, the one thing is not a checklist item. Often, the one thing is something like, you know, let me look at my calendar. But today, the one thing - you're gonna laugh at me - this is what I wrote, for my one thing: One thing at a time, focus and be present. And you can't check that off a list, you've got to go, Okay, I can't multitask. I've got to be really present. Often, it's the Holy Ghost saying, Receive Me, focus on Me, make Me the priority, and I promise I'll help you do all the other things. But that's, I think, what we need to understand what the terrestrial kingdom, is that it's about receiving. Jen, thank you.

Tammy 1:08:38

I appreciated the maximizing part and how we're receiving Him. How are we receiving the Holy Ghost on a daily basis? Because if that's the only thing you're focused on, you will never go wrong, ever. And it ties in really well with Laryssa's challenge. That was so good. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. Oh, my gosh. Okay, that was vision, oh, my gosh, that was vision Number 4.

And now we have the last vision, vision number 5, Larissa, and this is the telestial kingdom. So, we'll show you what that is in the next segment.

Segment 6 1:09:12

....

Tammy 1:09:15

Well, here's our last vision and I'm just now realizing Laryssa got the chunk of the visions. I should have paid more close attention to that like, I gave you so much. All right. Well, here's what Laryssa's is going to talk about, you ready for this? Bracket off verses 81 through 113. Put vision number 5, telestial glory, except for verse 97. Those are celestial kingdom that we kind of already bracketed off, but in general 81 through 113, this is what we have for telestial kingdom. So hit it Laryssa, you're up.

Laryssa 1:09:48

All right, here we go with telestial, and in this Section 76:81 through 113., let's go into 81 really quickly. So section 76 verse 81 He talks about the glory of the telestial, which is the glory of that of the lesser of the glories, even as the glory of the stars differ from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament. And, you know, it's so interesting to me to use that symbol, and think about light.

So, if I go out on a starry night, I can see a few things. And it's nice. If the moon is shining bright, I see a little bit more. But compared to looking at the world through the sun, there is no comparison, the moon and stars. There's no comparison in the, the amount I'm able to see and do in the light of the sun. It's just phenomenal to think about. And so as we're looking at the different kingdoms, it's that understanding of my ability to become and do.

And maybe this is where we can put in that beautiful quote from Elder or President, then Elder Oaks on becoming,right? And I want to come into that discussion about Becoming; this is just from that talk of October of 2000.

He says, "The final judgement is not just an evaluation of a sum total of good and evil acts, what we have done. It is an acknowledgement of the final effect of our acts and our thoughts, what we have become. It is not enough for anyone just to go through the motions, the commandments, ordinances, and covenants of the gospel are not lists of deposits required to be made in some heavenly account. The gospel of Jesus Christ is the plan by which we can become what children of God are supposed to become."

So I know when I am trying to help people, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna try to be a little vulnerable, but not so vulnerable, that it's gonna hurt my marriage. (laughing)

Tammy 1:11:53

I let that ship sail a long time ago. (laughters)

Laryssa 1:11:57

So, you know, the scriptures talk about abiding in the celestial law. This is in Doctrine and Covenants section 132. Abiding in celestial law means that I am trying to live the way that God would live. So there are times that my husband and I perhaps have had discussions that are pretty ugly. And when I say discussions, I don't mean discussions. And you know what I mean.

Jennifer 1:12:19

We do. (Laughter) What do you mean?

Laryssa 1:12:24

There's some times that I stopped our conversation, and I'll say to my husband, "This is not celestial communication. This is not what a celestial marriage should feel like. And we need to stop the way that we're talking to each other. Because I'm not taking this into the celestial kingdom, this will not be there, this behavior." So we've got to do what we can to work this out of our habits and trajectory, because it's not going to be the sudden, Now I'm going to stop yelling at someone, right? It is it is about me becoming and training myself to be like our Heavenly Father. And we're still working on retraining the way that we discuss and abide in that law, because this is our training ground.

And so when we talk final judgment, this is way after we have this life experience. But these things have to be learned at some point. And if you are not receiving, as Jen was saying, the Holy Ghost, if you're not receiving the testimony of the Savior to help change you, then you can't get to the celestial kingdom because you aren't celestial. And it's not that God doesn't love you and doesn't want you back. He wants you back. He's bending over backwards. But He can't give it to you if you haven't trained yourself out of the natural man.

Tammy 1:13:39

Because you won't want it.

Laryssa 1:13:41

Right. Or it won't be capable of doing it. I mean, if someone said, Let's run a marathon right now, I'd be very uncomfortable in a marathon. I literally cannot do it. Right? Yeah, I could maybe walk it and it would take a long time, if I was needing to do it today, but I could not run a marathon. Right? Anyway. So it's about that training.

So here we go. Um, the stars in 99 through 101, these are people who are like of Apollos, Cephas and Paul and Moses, Esaias, and Enoch. And the whole reason I want to bring that up is, we were talking about the gatherer and the isolator or the, you know, these are people who will not unify with God and Christ, right? They want to be their own individual, which is, you know, in reality what Satan wanted, right? He wanted to be him, and not that we lose our identity, but our purposes. And so I

Tammy 1:14:40

I love that you brought up verse 100 and 101, because when I read those, it's factionalism. They're like saying, Well, some are of Christ and some believing what Moses said, some believe in what Elias said, but they all need to believe in God. That's, that's what He's teaching us here, is not the people in the telestial kingdom haven't really agreed to believe in any one God or the Savior Jesus Christ. And as a result, they did not believe in the Gospel. They just picked and chose what they liked and what they felt comfortable believing. Nothing more, nothing less.

It makes me think of a few years back when my friend Sarah, - she's been on the podcast before - she said to me, because I was complaining about something in the church. This was years ago. And she said, "It's not a buffet. It's either all or nothing, you don't get to pick and choose what you're going to believe." Now listen, we're not saying that people who struggle, who treat the church as a buffet, who are some of one, some of another. We're not saying you're going to the telestial kingdom, let's be clear about that. We're just pointing out that that's what these verses are talking about. This is end result, all is said and done, Judgment Day, alright? So if you know anybody, don't be like, um hmm, telestal. We're just defining what these verses mean in our language.

Laryssa 1:15:52

Because if we don't define, if we don't see, we can't move forward. It is a huge deal. Being able to live with and like our Heavenly Father is a huge deal and it takes a great amount of work. And I'm not saying don't try. I'm just saying, right, that the opposite of it, it's sad. You wouldn't want that, right? You'd just, hmmm. I wouldn't.

Tammy 1:16:13

It is interesting that it's the first description of telestial kingdom. It's like a slippery slope. It's the first thing they just describes them before they get to all the other stuff. I'd never noticed that before.

Laryssa 1:16:26

Let's talk about why you don't want it. Verse 82 and 83, "....they received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus", but they don't deny the Holy Ghost. And they are thrust down to hell in verse 84, and

"85 these are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection...." So they're part of the resurrection of the unjust. So these are they who will have to wait in the millennium, through the resurrection, through all of the millennial day, to the resurrection of the unjust and then they get to come forward. And if we understand what spirit prison really is, if we go to the doctrine in Alma 36. And this is going to be in verse 12, where Alma the younger is explaining to his son what it was like for him during that time that he was wracked with eternal torment.

Verse 12, "....my soul was harrowed up to the greatest degree and racked with all my sins." There will come a day of payment, and penalty. If we go to Doctrine and Covenants, section 19, you know, where the Savior says, "I've paid the penalty. This is Doctrine and Covenants Section 19,

verse 16," For behold, I God have suffered these things for all,that they might not suffer if they would repent.

"17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

"18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit - and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink---"

If we can really understand what the spirit world for those who have not accepted Christ will be like, I think we would be a little more hesitant to be like, Oh, he'll beat us with a few stripes, the we'll be saved. This is a huge deal. And as we were talking about before, when the heavens wept, I am sure that the Savior does not want anyone to feel what He had to go through, which is why He went through it for us, and why He begs us to repent. Because

Tammy 1:18:38

Well, Laryssa, go to verse 107. It's exactly what you're saying

Laryssa 1:18:42

Do you want to read it, please, Tammy.

Tammy 1:18:43

"107 When he shall deliver up the kingdom, and present it unto the Father, spotless, saying: I have overcome and have trodden the wine-press alone, even the wine-press of the fierceness of the wrath of the Almighty God." Like, I did it for you.

Laryssa 1:18:57

I did it for you. So you don't have to. But if you choose to die spiritually, right? Look at verse 105. "These are they who suffer the vengeance of eternal fire."

" 106 These are they who are cast down to hell, and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work;" This is what He's doing in the millennium. If you go to Doctrine and Covenants Section 138. And again, we're talking about those in the spirit world. And we're going into verse 59. These are people who, ".......after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation."

And what we need to understand is, any salvation at this point is better than being with with Satan for eternity. And if we can understand that the Lord is willing to even help them get add glory, and an ability to build and grow. And so this is kind of like, it's still so kind of Father and the Savior to allow people to not have to stay in that state. But I don't want that for anybody. I want everyone to have what they have the ability to get. And as you guys said, it is simple and hard and simple.

Tammy 1:20:28

It requires us to receive as Jen said, and taught us. So, wow, Laryssa, thank you. Thank you. I mean, clearly, those of you listening, read sections 76 and read what we've bracketed off because we didn't even get to cover everything in those verses. But what we covered was powerful. And we just have to end with verse 116. Will you read that verse, Jen. Now the background of this verse is in verse 114. In verse 114, the Lord is speaking about the mysteries of the kingdom and the mysteries contained in this section. So if you want to know and understand, then we're going to find out how in verse 116. Jennifer, will you please read verse 116.

Jennifer 1:21:03

"116 Neither is man capable to make them known, for they are only to be seen and understood by the power of the Holy Spirit, which God bestows on those who love Him and purify themselves before him;"

Tammy 1:21:09

And going back to where we started, Jen with the Holy Ghost and just loving Him, you will be able to really have a full knowledge and understanding of Section 76. And that's what this is all about, just loving Him, seeking salvation. And I'm just, I'm still struck with that quote by Brigham Young, that he couldn't believe that the Lord would want to save all of His children. And that is what section 76 is about, that even the telestial kingdom, there's some salvific beauty in that kingdom, there's still light, right? It's just not as bright as the sun, but still a kingdom. I think that that quote, you shared, Jen was perfect. So thank you.

Thank you, ladies. That's the end of our episode. Wow. Okay, so just think through, take a minute, gather your thoughts and what is your takeaway? What's something that stood out to you that you learned, and I have so many.

Jennifer 1:22:04

I think when it's said and done for me, my takeaway is the powerful role of agency in my life, that I can choose Jesus. I chose Him before, I chose Him pre-mortally, I'm choosing Him now, And I want to choose Him forever. And that when it's all said and done, it's about knowing Him so that I can know the Father and our Heavenly Mother. And that that can be my eternal state. I just, it's so awesome. That last verse, verse 117, where it talks about a privilege, it really is such a privilege. That to whom He grants this privilege of seeing and knowing for themselves, I have learned for myself today.

Tammy 1:22:44

Amen. I agree, what a privilege. Laryssa.

Laryssa 1:22:48

Um, I was checking. I think you shared this at the beginning, Tammy, when Joseph Smith talked about how he could explain so much more if the people were willing to receive it. And then with Jen talking about the ability to receive. And in 116, it says that the Holy Spirit is bestowed upon those who love God, and those who purify themselves before Him. It is changing those attitudes and behaviors, it is purifying ourselves. It's continuing to show up and try each day. And then it is as simple as I love God and He loves me and we will be able to work it up together.

Tammy 1:23:27

Beautiful. Thank you, Laryssa. Good takeaways,. My two, two of them, I love our discussion on Receive. And Jen, when you pointed out that the devil separates but God unites and how many times he uses the word All and celestial kingdom, I'd never considered that. And then the action that's required for receiving, that was such a good discussion. That really changed the way I view that, so thank you for pointing that out.

And then Laryssa, when you said, at the end of the day, the only person I can bring to God is myself. I kind of felt this, like, Oh, yeah, that's right. Okay, all right. I just need to chill out a little bit. I'm doing a good job. And God loves me. And, and it is, it's fully about me, and my role in what I'm doing. And then it trickles down after that to my children and my spouse and my friends. So, that was great.

You guys. I love you. Thank you for being here today. This was so good. Wow. Wow. Well, that was such an incredible discussion. Whoa, I can't wait to hear what your takeaways are from this episode. So if you haven't joined our discussion group on Facebook or Instagram, go join it. Let me know what you guys learned. It's such a great place for us to study and ask questions. And I try to answer any questions I can during the week. So if you have any from this episode, go ahead, ask away. And then on Saturday, comment to the post that relates to this lesson and let us know what you've learned. And I read all of them. It's my favorite part of Sunday. I know I always say that, but it really is.

You can get to both our Facebook and Instagram by going to the show notes for this episode at LDS Living dot com slash Sunday on Monday. Also if you go there you can find the links to all the references that we used and a transcript of this whole discussion which, I'm thinking even I might want.

The Sunday on Monday study group is a Deseret Bookshelf Plus Original brought to you by LDS Living. It's written and hosted by me Tammy Uzelac Hall, and today, our fabulous study group participants were Laryssa Wilhelm Waldron, and Jennifer Brinkerhoff Platt and you can find more information about these women at LDS Living dot com slash Sunday on Monday. Our podcast is produced by Katie Lambert and myself. It is recorded and mixed by Mix at 6 Studios. And our executive producer is Erin Hallstrom. Thanks for being here. We'll see you next week and you better remember this, that you are God's favorite and you're doing a really good job.

Transcribed by Jenee Uzelac