26: “It Is Finished” (Matthew 27; Mark 15; Luke 23; John 19)

Tammy 0:08

It is now the last Friday of the Savior's life. This Friday is filled with devastating, consuming sorrow that will knot at the souls of those who love and honor the Son of God. Of of all the days since the beginning of this world's history, this Friday is the darkest, but the doom of that day did not endure. The despair did not linger. This week's study of Matthew chapter 27, Mark 15, Luke 23, and John 19 are the final hours of Jesus's life. And the only way to get through this lesson is to remember that Sunday will come.

Welcome to the Sunday on Monday Study Group, a Deseret Bookshelf Plus original brought to you by LDS Living ,where we take the Come ,fFllow Me lesson for the week and we really dig into the scriptures together. I'm your host, Tammy Uzelac Hall. Now if you're new to our study group, we want to make sure you know how to use this podcast, so please follow the link in our description; it's going to explain how you can best use this podcast to enhance yFollow Me study just like my friend, Amy Gatton from Layton, Utah. Hi, Amy. Now another incredible thing about our study group - and it's my favorite thing - is each week we're joined by two of my friends, so sometimes it's a little bit different. And then sometimes we have regulars, and today we've got to oldie but goodies, Tyler and Abe. Hi guys.

Tyler Collet 1:23

Hey, Tammy.

Abe Mills 1:24

Hi, Tammy. How are you?

Tammy 1:26

Well, you know how I am. How are you guys? How are you feeling about this episode?

Abe Mills 1:30

I feel honored to be on this episode.

Tyler Collet 1:32

Yeah. Yeah, this this is gonna be incredible.

Tammy 1:37

I mean, it's heavy. We're already sweating, we're already crying. It's, it's a lot. But I think it'll be a really good discussion, especially with you two. I couldn't think of two men I'd rather have with me to talk about this. So thank you so much. Really quick, anything new in your lives you want to tell us about - anything that's going on?

Tyler Collet 1:55

I had a daughter come home from her mission.

Tammy 1:58

Yes, she did. She did an awesome job serving back in the Washington, DC area.

Abe Mills 2:04

That is awesome. Congrats. Yeah.

Tyler Collet 2:06

Thank you, thank you. Yeah, she's uh, she's already got a job. She's back to live in her life as it was before the mission. So

totally planning already to go to school. She's awesome. Shout out to Elissa. Love you, sis. Abe, you were on a TV show, hello. Jjust tell us about that.

Abe Mills 2:23

Oh, my gosh, yes. We were on a show calledThe Parent Test on ABC. And it was kind of one of those things where it originally sounded like it was going to be a celebration of parenthood. And then they tell us that we'd be voting on parents and parenting styles. And they didn't do that before they had videoed us for a week. So we kind of found out about that halfway in. But you know, it was an adventure. It was exciting. We got a chance to work with parents of all different religious faiths and backgrounds. And in the end, I think it was, you know, it made us feel really good that they said, You know, you guys are different than most Christians that we that we encounter. And I think in the end we all agreed that love is the best way to handle just about anything, and it was a great opportunity to meet new friends from different faiths.

Tammy 3:17

Wow.

Tyler Collet 3:18

Tammy, did you watch any of the episodes?

Tammy 3:20

No, I just saw them on the previews and stuff. I need to go, how do I find it? How can people find it, Abe?

Abe Mills 3:25

I think that it's still on Hulu, and/or ABC.

Tyler Collet 3:30

Yeah, that's where I saw it was Hulu.

Tammy 3:33

Tell us the name of the TV show again.

Abe Mills 3:35

It's called The Parent Test.

Tammy 3:37

Okay, I'm gonna go watch it this weekend for sure. I knew you were on it, but I just haven't seen it, so I can't wait.

Abe Mills 3:43

Awesome

Tammy 3:43

Way to represent, that it's so cool. Okay, well, if you guys want to know more about my guests, or see pictures of them and read their bios, you can find them in our show notes which are going to be found at LDS living.com/sunday on Monday. So here we go. Grab your scriptures, your scripture journal and something to mark your Scriptures, with and we are really going to Dig In to this last day of the Savior's life. All right, you two, I have a picture I want to show you and I want you to tell me what words do you associate with this? I'm going to write down all your answers that you guys give me. So describe to the listener what picture I'm showing you.

Tyler Collet 4:17

It looks like a crown that a king would wear. It's got the white trim at the bottom, the white furry trim at the bottom. It's a lot of jewels and gold. And it goes up and ironically, there's what appears to be a small cross on the top of the crown.

Tammy 4:36

Very good.

Tyler Collet 4:36

And there appears to be what looks like velvet in between the headpiece and it's of course purple.

Tammy 4:47

Purple is a symbol of royalty. Very good.

Abe Mills 4:50

That's what I was thinking.

Tammy 4:51

Tell me all the words that you associate with a crown. Go

Tyler Collet 4:56

You just said it: royalty.

Abe Mills 4:57

That's the first word that came to my mind was royalty.

Tammy 5:00

Good job. Keep going.

Tyler Collet 5:02

Authority.

Abe Mills 5:04

Ruler, wealth, prosperity.

Tyler Collet 5:10

Kingdom or stewardship.

Tammy 5:13

Oh, that's a good word.

Tyler Collet 5:17

Power.

Tammy 5:19

Okay. Wow, good job. Excellent words. Now here's something interesting about that crown. It's actually called, there's a name for this crown. It's called the working crown. And it is the literal crown that King Charles III will wear at his coronation. And several friends who listen that are in Europe, they would recognize this crown. In fact, King Charles was just coronated, and this is the crown they put on his head. But you're probably wondering, like, what does a crown have to do with scripture? Well, your answers. Because Jesus didn't really wear a crown. But He did absolutely, in this moment, have royalty, authority - I love all your answers - power, kingdom, prosper, stewardship. I mean, that was a perfect word to describe Jesus in His final hours, a stewardship over all of us. And so with this idea that the Savior was a king, He's actually going to have five fateful visits that will include dialogue about a king, and actual kings. So let's turn to John 18:12, that's what we're going to start. From last week, the Savior and the apostles have come out of the Garden of Gethsemane, Judas Iscariot has betrayed the Savior with a kiss, and now here's what's happening next. John 18:12 and 13. Tyler, can you read those for us, please?

Tyler Collet 6:39

Then the band and the captain and officers of the Jews took Jesus, and bound him, And led him away to Annas first; for he was father in law to Caiaphas, which was the high priest that same year."

Tammy 6:52

Thank you. All right, we have five visits. So the first visit right there in verses 12 and 13 was to Annas. Let's just find out something that happened specifically when He went to see Aninas the high priest. Turnk to uke chapter 22. We have to tell this story. Luke chapter 22. And when we get there, Abe, will you read verses 63-65.

Abe Mills 7:14

You bet.

Tammy 7:15

I'd never actually known about this story until I studied it for this specific episode. And it's, it is a sad story.

Tyler Collet 7:22

Now Tammy, wasn't Annas - wasn't he the former chief priest before Caiaphas?

Tammy 7:25

Yes. And Annas is Caiaphas's father in law.

Tyler Collet 7:32

So he's got experience and, okay.

Tammy 7:36

Very good. Okay, so he's, so he's with the Annas, and look what happens when He's there. Luke 22:63-65.

Abe Mills 7:41

"And the men that held Jesus mocked him and smote him. And when they had blindfolded him, they struck him on the face, and asked him, saying, Prophesy, who is it that smote thee? And many other things blasphemously spake they against him."

Tammy 7:59

I mean, can you just see this playing out? And then yelling at him, Hey, guess who hit you? Now, if you really are who you say you are, you're gonna know.

Tyler Collet 8:12

Yeah, that's frustrating.

Abe Mills 8:14

Yeah, I can't imagine being the Savior and, you know, with the understanding of what was going on, that He had to see how misinterpreted all the things that He said and and all the things that He was doing, how badly it was misinterpreted.

Tammy 8:29

Absolutely, it's a good way to put it.

Tyler Collet 8:31

And I think Abe had the key word there -the understanding - because He did have the understanding that this was going to happen, that He would eventually be alone in this process. I couldn't think of that, I couldn't I just, hard to understand.

Tammy 8:50

For sure. Thank you, both of you. So after He is with Annas, He then gets sent to Caiaphas, who is the next high priest. Now here's why. They go to these two men, but because Israel was under Roman rule, the execution could only be authorized by the Romans. So for this reason, the Jews then sent Jesus to Pilate, who was the Roman leader over Judea, accusing Him of rebellion against the Roman government, because Jesus claimed to be something. So He goes to Pilate ,and let's turn to John 18:28, and we're going to learn a little bit about this interaction. So John 18:28, and in verse 28, it says, "Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early." Mark that, it was early. Let me tell you how early it was. They believe it was around 6:00 in the morning. So mind you, Jesus has not slept yet. He has come off the Last Supper, Gethsemane, He's got to be exhausted. So about 6:00 in the morning, they themselves went into the judgment hall and they go in and they see Pilate. Now here's the conversation they have. Look at verse 33. And Tyler, can you please read for us verse 33? And then I want you to skip down and read 37 and 38.

Tyler Collet 10:07

Yes. "Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews? Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou King then? Jesus answered, thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came my into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Everyone that is of the truth hereth my voice."

Tammy 10:34

And so Pilate, in his frustration, sends then, Jesus to Herod So we have four visits right here. And Herod has a conversation. Now I asked the two of you to just sort of read the interaction between Jesus and Pilate and Herod, and what did you notice about the way Jesus, THE King was responding to these two kings?

Tyler Collet 10:55

He was humble about it. He wasn't, you know, bragging about, Well, yeah, you should be bowing before Me. But no, He was like, Hey, you're saying this, not Me, you know, or other people are telling you this. Not me, you know. Soon you will see who I am, more or less. But it He was very humble about the conversations.

Abe Mills 11:18

Yeah, he was definitely humble. It was, it's kind of interesting, because I look at this, like, kind of like, Pilate's, like, Why am I being bothered with this? It says that I can send them to Herod, let's just send them there. I feel like Pilate was just kind of like, I gotta get rid of this because I don't want to deal with this stuff. You know what I mean? And I feel like if I send Him to Herod, then Herod will surely get rid of Him and I won't have to worry about it, because Herod is worse than me. And if He's like, really a king, than Herod will take care of it. And so he's kind of standing there and Pilate's asking Him, So are you a king? And He's like, thou sayest, because you know that you wouldn't be asking Me. I mean, I don't know. If I was Pilate I don't know that I would waste my time with that unless I felt like, okay, there's got to be something to this, because why would they bring this man to me just for that?

Tammy 12:08

Right.

Tyler Collet 12:09

So Tammy, in my research of doing this, and correct me if I'm wrong, or, you know, steer me in the right direction, but I learned that during the course of their short conversation the first time, Pilate believed that Jesus was Galilean. Right?

Tammy 12:26

Correct. Hold that thought, we're gonna come back to that.

Tyler Collet 12:49

Okay, which is why He's like, Oh, hey, out of my jurisdiction. This isn't mine, this is Herod's. He can deal with this.

Tammy 12:37

Oh, my gosh, you're totally right, Tyler. And so we're going to come back to that. That's the fifth visit is when Herod sends Him back to Pilate, because he's like, Wait a minute. You're from Galilee, I have nothing to do with You. So awesome, awesome, awesome. You're totally right. Yes. Great job. Well, and going back to the words you used to describe when I showed you the crown, isn't it interesting that none of us thought - and I didn't till we wrote this down - we didn't say humble. We didn't say masterful at teaching or at litigating. Like,the way He answered the question with a question, responded, like restated what He said. I mean, those were some interesting qualities we didn't necessarily associate with the crown. And so the Savior takes this kingship to a whole nother level, which I think is really powerful. So Jesus then met with Pilate and Herod. Now, while all of this is going on, something else of significance is taking place. And we're gonna talk about that in the next segment.

Segment 2 13:07

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Tammy 13:42

While all of this is going on, I think what's so striking is that we have to go back to the story of Judas. Like what's going on, and what happened. And his story is found in Matthew chapter 27, so turn there really quick. Matthew chapter 27. And let's just finish his story. Here we go. Verse 2 says, while they "delivered him to Pontius Pilate, the governor." Then we get what happens to Judas. Tyler, can you please read for us verses 3-8.

Tyler Collet 14:11

"Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders. Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that. And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood. And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in. Wherefore that field was called, The Field of Blood, unto this day."

Tammy 14:54

Thank you. We need to look at footnote five a, where it says that Judas went and hanged himself", down below the Joseph Smith Translation. Abe, can you read that for us.

Abe Mills 15:06

Yes, it says, "and hanged himself on a tree. And straightway he fell down and his bowels gushed out and he died."

Tammy 15:13

Thank you. Now if you want to cross reference verses 7 and 8, to the outside, just write Acts 1:18. You can read more about that Field of Blood and more about that story. We're not going to take time today. But they really did buy a field with the 30 pieces of silver as a place where they would bury strangers. But I'm curious to know in that, in those short verses we read, did anything stand out to you about Judas and maybe where his heart was or what he was experiencing in that moment?

Tyler Collet 15:42

For me, Tammy, I, I had to take a step back and look and what brought him to betray Christ in the first place. What was it, you know? So that's where I start when I look at it, that's where I start. He formulates this, plot, he conspires. So that leads me why, why? And then, so he had to have some motive, I would think, in his in his head. But once he saw what was happening with Christ, once he learned that He was condemned, he then had to have some stupor of thought, some transformation again, right? Because at first, he was one of the 12; he had to have something to reverse his ideology. And then once again, I would say the Spirit, right, testified to him.

Tammy 16:39

Yeah

Tyler Collet 16:39

changes his ways once more, and he does what we all get to do is repent.

You know, it seems like I've heard this somewhere. But I think that he might have just thought, Man, if I do this, I can get the money that I need for whatever I need it for. And Jesus is, He's clearly all-powerful can do whatever He wants. And so maybe He'll just get Himself out of it and then everything will be great.

Oh, that's a great perspective.

Abe Mills 17:08

I wonder if that's what his thought was. I mean, it was like nobody knew what Jesus is, what He was trying to do.

Tammy 17:15

Yeah. You know, Abe, scholars really close to that interpretation. He, this scholar says that maybe Judas was attempting to get Jesus to display his Messianic powers and authority to hasten the overthrow of the Romans. And so theory suggests Judas wasn't wicked, he just missed understood the kind of Messiah that Jesus was, and what He was really coming to do.

Abe Mills 17:36

Yep, exactly. But I think it's interesting when he goes back and he says, I'm sorry, I totally lied. He didn't do anything wrong. It's like going to the police. Right? I didn't do anything. He didn't do anything wrong. And then they're kind of like, We don't really care.

Tammy 17:51

Yeah.

Abe Mills 17:52

Like, that's great that you're saying that now. But you did exactly what we needed to do to get him. And that's all we wanted. And so it was kind of like you put yourself in with those kind of people, you end up in a big mess.

Tyler Collet 18:04

For sure. So am I the only one that that got caught up on after he hung himself, his bowels fell out? I mean, that sounds like an evisceration. What, What, What could have caused that?

Tammy 18:17

Well, some people believe that he hung himself and then fell and landed on his sword, which slit his belly.

Tyler Collet 18:23

Ah,

Abe Mills 18:24

okay,

Tammy 18:24

That's one interpretation of that.

Tyler Collet 18:26

So talking about this reminds me of a General Conference talk by Elder Holland entitled "None Were With Him" in the 2009 April session. In this, this particular portion of his talk relates to Judas Iscariot. And he says, "Among those who knew Jesus more personally, the most difficult to understand in this group is Judas Iscariot. We know the divine plan required Jesus to be crucified. But it is wrenching to think that one of his special witnesses who sat at His feet, heard Him pray, watched Him heal, and felt His touch could betray Him and all that He was, for 30 pieces of silver. Never in the history of this world has so little money purchased so much infamy. We are not the ones to judge, Judas's is fate, but Jesus said of his betrayer 'good rid for that man if he had not been born.'"

Tammy 19:23

Yeah. Powerful. Oh, thank you, both of you. So after this experience had happened, then going back to Jesus, He is now on His way to Pilate, Herod sends Him back to Pilate. Abe will you please read Luke 23:13-15. And this is what Pilate has to say.

Abe Mills 19:43

All right. And Pilate, when he had called together the chief priests and the rulers and the people, Said unto them, Ye have brought this man unto me, as one that perverteth the people: and, behold, I, having examined him before you, have found no fault in this man touching those things whereof ye accuse him: No, nor yet Herod: for I sent you to him; and lo, nothing worthy of death is done unto him."

Tammy 20:10

Thank you. So he's like, we find him innocent. There's no reason for us to do this. And in fact, in Matthew 27:19, Pilate's wife is going to tell them, Don't do it.,This is not worth it. Why do you do that, Abe?

Abe Mills 20:24

Because listen, man, I've had so many times in my life, man, if you just listen to your wife the first time, just listen to your wife the first time, man. Tthis is really a, for all ya'all out there listening to this, listen to your wife the first time. I'm telling you.

Tammy 20:37

She knows.

Abe Mills 20:38

I thought that was interesting that in this we have a scriptural backing for that whole thing. Listen to your wife. Oh, okay. All right.

Tammy 20:45

She knew, absolutely. Oh, that's so good. I love that. Listen to your wife. Okay, he didn't. So while Jesus is with Pilate, then, Pilate does something interesting. Look at John 19:1 and Pilate does something specific to Jesus in the hopes that it would maybe make the Jews a little more merciful towards Him. And it's just verse 1. Tyler, read that for us.

Tyler Collet 21:09

1: "Then Pilate therefore took Jesus, and scourged him." Or in other words, whipped Him.

Tammy 21:16

Yeah, I actually have a whip. We made these to teach when I was teaching in New Testament. This is what it would have looked like. Can you see all those pieces of rock that are on the ends of each one of these leathers. And the idea being scourged is when you get whipped, the rocks would then fall into the back and pull skin off of your back. There would have been glass also in each one of these pieces of the whip. And so He wasn't just whipped, He was, skin was ripped off of his back. It was awful. So the Savior, I have here, blindfolded, slapped, mocked, betrayed, scourged, whipped, interrogated.

Tyler Collet 21:52

and spit on.

Tammy 21:53

spit on. All of these things. And the question is, why do we think the Savior was willing to endure this? And you both brought this up in the first segment, like he knew it was going to happen? And He endured it, He had a stewardship to do it. I love that word that you used. And let's turn to First Nephi really quickly, we're going to read two scriptures that give us some great information about why the Savior allowed this to happen. So turn to First Nephi chapter 19. And then Abe, will you turn to Mosaih 15. Tyler, will you please read First Nephi 19:8 & 9.

Tyler Collet 22:27

"And behold he cometh, according to the words of the angel, in 600 years from the time my father left Jerusalem. And the world, because of their iniquity, shall judge him to be a thing of naught; wherefore they scourge him, and He suffereth it; and they smite him, and he suffereth it. Yea, they spit upon him, and he suffereth it, because of his loving kindness and his long-suffering towards the children of men."

Tammy 22:53

Now turn to Mosiah. And we're gonna go to Mosiah chapter 15. And we're going to read verses 5-7. Abe, will you read that for us?

Abe Mills 23:03

Yes. "And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffered himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people. And after all this, after working many mighty miracles among the children of men, he shall be led, yea, even as Isaiah said, as a sheep before the shearer is dumb, so he opened not his mouth. Yea, even so he shall be led, crucified, and slain, the flesh becoming subject even unto death, the will tof the Son being swallowed up in the will of the Father. And thus God breaketh the bands of death, having gained the victory over death; giving the Son power to make intercession for the children of men.-"

Tammy 23:54

Thank you. Now your thoughts as you were reading these Book of Mormon verses in connection to what we've studied so far? About why He was willing?

Tyler Collet 24:04

An amount of love that I will probably never understand.

Abe Mills 24:07

Yeah I think it just gives us a more complete picture of, you know, if you just read the story of what happened, and you didn't know anything else, it might be easy to say like, Why isn't He doing something? Why isn't He, you know, saving Himself, which I'm sure many of His disciples and followers were saying. But, you know, if you, if you read this, and you kind of understand like, Okay, this is a better picture of why He would do that. It just gives a more complete picture of it.

Tammy 24:43

Yeah, absolutely. And for me, I love that it's in the Book of Mormon because again, The Book of Mormon is another testament of Jesus Christ. And here is this book testifying of everything to them what will happen and we're reading that it did. And again, the amount of love and that He could make intercession for us. He's the only person that gets it when it comes to these feelings and emotions and just betrayal, all of it. So thank you, both of you for your comments and thoughts. So after this happens, then Pilate and his soldiers do something more specific. And there's something that Pilate will actually say to the people in hopes that they will just let Jesus go free. We'll talk about that next.

Segment 3 25:23

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Tammy 25:46

So after Pilate scourged the Savior, something else happened. And Pilate's allowing all of this to happen because he's just hoping it gives compassion, that the Jews will say, You know what, you're right, He's suffered enough. And so I asked Tyler if he would prepare for us what happened in John 19:2-4 as well as in Matthew 27:20-31, and Mark 15:1-20. So there's all the Scripture references. Tyler, go ahead and talk to us about these verses of scripture and what happened.

Tyler Collet 26:18

So, as we know, once He was scourged, He was then mocked. And the mockery continued to show a crown of thorns, right, from the, like the picture that you started off today's episode with. It was a crown, and this crown of thorns was meant as a royal mockery. And as I was looking into the crown of thorns, I found a pretty cool quote from President Faust in a General Conference talk in 1991. And President Faust says, "Perhaps this cruel act was a perverse attempt to mimic the placing of an emperor's Laurel on his head. How poignant this was, considering that the thorns signified God's displeasure, as He cursed the ground for Adam's sake, that henceforth it would bring forth thorns. But by wearing the crown Jesus transformed thorns into a symbol of His glory.

Tammy 27:18

Ooh, I like that quote.

Abe Mills 27:19

That was pretty cool.

Tyler Collet 27:20

Yeah, I'd never read that. Good quote, Tyler.

And it said that the thorns back then probably would have been close to about four centimeters long. So I go to trim my rosebush I will get stuck by a little teeny tiny Thorn. And that hurts. I pull my hand out, I try to. You know, I removed myself from the rosebush because that hurt. Someone I couldn't imagine kneeling there - because they had Him kneel - kneeling there and having a crown forced onto my head without trying to pull away, without trying to fight, without trying to stop. So we have the crown of thorns.

The next we have the purple robe, or the scarlet robe. But we learned through the Joseph Smith translation that the scarlet robe was actually the color purple. And again, the purple color, the symbol is a kingly color, which is exactly what the picture displayed when you showed the purple. Again, this is for mockery; this is this is to show, Hey look. Here's your royalty right here, the King of the Jews, if you will. And I think I actually, I think they actually stripped Him of His clothing just before they put this robe on Him. And eventually they would remove the purple robe.

They placed a reed in His hands, once they had the purple robe on him, as a sepelchure so to speak. And then they took it and they beat Him with it. They hit Him on the top of His head, with the crowns pushing down into his head and just, I can't imagine the excruciating physical pain, the mental pain that He was suffering. I pull my hand out out of rosebush when I get poked because it hurts. I couldn't imagine the scoffing, the, everything that was happening in front of an audience, too. It wasn't just this private show between Roman soldiers. This was open. And then they bowed before Him, you know, again, all sorts of just mockery. And then they, Pilate comes out and says, "Behold, the man."

Abe Mills 29:36

Now I wonder, you know, when I was reading this, I looked at it and I saw, you know, in John 18:39, it says, you know, pilot was trying to release Jesus, but the words that he uses, he says, "But ye have a custom." And the custom was to let someone go, and then if that's part of the custom, then there's other parts of the custom, which I'm assuming has to do with this scourging and whatnot. Now, I'm wondering, I don't know, I haven't done the research on this. But I'm wondering whether or not when they were doing all of these things to Him, I bet usually they get, they probably get a big reaction from the person that they're doing it to - probably screaming, wailing. And when they didn't get that from Him, I wonder if they felt like they needed to do more, and that they didn't get what they were looking for. And so they did more.

Tammy 30:30

Oh, that's an interesting approach.

Abe Mills 30:32

I wonder if that was what happened. Because you know, sometimes when you don't get the response that you're hoping to, then you maybe push a little harder. You see a bully that's bullying somebody and the person doesn't respond, then they'll get a little bit more aggressive. And I wonder if this is what happened with this, where they just kind of kept going and going and going and you know, it's this is part of their, their custom,

Tammy 30:58

Wow, Abe. Well, I wonder then, it kind of maybe gives more power behind what Pilate says in verse 5 then. Maybe this was his final attempt to be like, I've given you what you wanted. Can we just let it go? Tyler, read verse f5.

Tyler Collet 31:12

[John 19:5 } "Then came Jesus forth, wearing the crown of thorns, and the purple robe. And Pilate saith unto them, Behold the man!"

Tammy 31:21

Let's just ighlight that: underline it, put stars around it, everything, that line right there, "Behold the man!" Now in Greek, it literally is, and I like how there's an exclamation point after it. So it's not a calm "Behold the man." I'm imagining Pilate is yelling this. In Greek it would be See the man, or here He is! Like, alright, we've done it. And here's what Elder Uzhtdorf has to say. Elder Uchtdorf gave a talk in 2018 called "Behold the Man", such a good talk. And we have to include this quote. Abe can you read this quote for us, please.

Abe Mills 31:56

Yes. "Perhaps Pilate thought this would satisfy the mob's lust for blood. Perhaps they would take pity on the Man. "Behold, I bring him forth unto you" Pilate said, "that ye may know that I find no fault in him. Behold, the man!" The Son of God stood in the flesh before the people of Jerusalem; they could see Jesus, but they did not truly behold Him. They did not have eyes to see, in a figurative sense. We, too are invited to Behold the Man. Opinions about Him vary in the world. Ancient and modern prophets testify that He is the Son of God. I do this too. It is significant and important that we each come to know for ourselves. So when you ponder the life and ministry of Jesus Christ, what do you see? Those who find a way to truly Behold the Man, find the doorway to life's greatest joys, and the balm of life's most demanding the despairs."

Tammy 32:51

Thank you. I want to ask you the question that he ends with: "Those who find a way to truly Behold the Man, have either of you found a way to Behold the man in your life?

Tyler Collet 33:03

You know, this lesson, this episode actually helps me. And what I mean by that is, I gain a more appreciation for the Atonement, because let's be real, the Atonement wasn't just the Gaarden of Gethsemane. It was this: it was the scourging, and then it was the crucifixion. Those events made up the Atonement. And I didn't really put those two together, I always thought the Atonement was just Him suffering in the garden. That was the Atonement. But I've learned through this study that the crucifixion is very much a part of the Atonement. And to have a physical description of His suffering on the latter part of the Atonement.

The first part we know He was in agony and bled from every pore, and I cannot, my simple mind just cannot fathom what the pain would be for that. I have an understanding of what thorns in my head would feel like. I have an understanding of what it might feel like to be whipped with bits and pieces of bone or rock enough to slice my skin open because I've had my skin sliced open before and that means. But it's been, so I can kind of relate a little bit more on the crucifixion side, the Atonement because of the physical things that are happening that either I have personally seen something similar or I've experienced something similar. In the garden side, nothing, I can't touch that, clearly over my head. So I think that's, this episode, thankfully, that's why I was so grateful to be a part of this is helps me to Behold the man even more than I had been trying to do.Tte last bit of my life.

Tammy 34:57

Yeah. Oh, Tyler. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. You do know. I even thought of other parts to the emotional side of it - being betrayed. You know, and how, we all do. Everybody knows that feeling of losing friends and to make it that real impersonal was awesome. Thank you, Tyler. What about YouTube?

Abe Mills 35:16

So I really love music and I got a chance to go to a concert recently. AndTake Six, I don't know if you know who Take Six is, they're an a'capella gospel group. If you haven't heard them, you gotta go listen. But they were there and they performed. And one of the things that they said between songs, one of the members of Take Six talked about when he was growing up he would do everything that his brother, his older brother would do. And he wanted to do everything that his older brother would do. And one of those things was, you know, after his brother would play basketball, he would drink Gatorade. And he said when he would go over and he would drink this Gatorade, and he just said "that was the nastiest drink that he'd ever had. "But in order to try to be like his brother, he'd drink it.

But he said the thing about Gatorade is interesting is that, the more thirsty you are then the better it tastes. And then he kind of compared that to the blood of Christ. And he said, You know, when you look at Jesus, you may not see Him. But when you need Him in your life, you're thirsty enough, then it tastes sweet. And, you know, sometimes I think about in our lives, anybody who's ever needed anything, whether it be spiritual, physical, emotional, and we begin to understand who Jesus is and what He can do, and what He has done and what He'll continue to do. And we can see Him as He is and that he's there for us. And this, this member of Take Six went on to say that Jesus is no longer just a good option. He is a necessity. And how ironic is it that all the people who are doing this and taking part in this were some of those who would need and ultimately probably come to appreciate what He was going through the most.

Tammy 36:58

Powerful Abe. I like that analogy so much, that you don't really come to know Him until you need Him. Thank you. A

Abe Mills 37:06

And if we can, I feel like, I feel like daily if we can understand our need for Him instead of waiting till it gets to that point, right? All over the scriptures it says, 'That's great that you know, but if you would have known without having to go through this, then it would be even better, right.

Tammy 37:22

I like that. Because I'm like, Listen, you don't need to wait till you're dehydrated. Little bit of sips every day will keep you from being, when you get to that stage - dehydrated - you could die from that. So just a little bit every day of Jesus is better than nothing. So, oh I like that analogy. Well, okay. So he says, "Behold the man ", and the only man they wanted to behold, is in John 18:40, go to verse 40. And Abe, just call out the name. Who did they want to behold?

Abe Mills 37:49

It says here, "Then cried they all again, saying Not this man, but Barabbas. Now Barabbas was a robber."

Tammy 37:57

Here's what you want to know about that word 'robber'. Mark it. It is the word LESTES in Greek. And it means a robber, but typically with violence, like a thief who pillages and plunders and exploits the vulnerable without hesitation of the use of violence. In Mark, cross reference that verse to Mark 15:7, and that's going to tell us that he was a man who committed murder. So he's a bad, dude. Very bad dude. And it's fascinating that they won't choose. Your arms are up in the air, Abe.

Abe Mills 38:27

How in the world? I just, you know, I mean, as we look through that, it's just kind of like, Nope, we'll take the murderer, you know. And everybody knows, I mean, these guys know Christ never murdered anybody.

Tammy 38:38

Right?

Abe Mills 38:39

And I mean, they're not even saying that He murdered anybody. They're sayng what He's doing is worse than being a murderer. What He's doing is worse than, what else was it - insurrection?

Tammy 38:50

insurrection, yeah.

Abe Mills 38:51

Yes. So He had been trying to incite people against the government. And in those days, man, you have a king? You don't incite people against the king, because king will kill you.

Tyler Collet 39:01

Especially the Romans.

Tammy 39:02

Yes,

exactly.

Abe Mills 39:03

And they would kill for less than that. And then, and then these people were trying to, so I don't know like how this works. But I was so shocked just by the fact that they were kind of like, becoming, I don't know, in this particular instance it seems like they're beholden to the people. Which doesn't sound like a kingdom that I know of, but

Tammy 39:22

nope.

Abe Mills 39:22

For some reason this works out this way in this specific instance that they're more worried about what the people think. And these people are ready to let a murderer go.

Tammy 39:33

Yeah.

Tyler Collet 39:33

Well, in in addition to that, Pilate is hearing the people and he's probably thinking, I don't want to create a riot here. I'm the governor of this area. I don't want this problem. I don't know this guy, this is what the people want, so be it. And as we were just describing him it reminded me of another portion of Elder Holland's talk, in the same talk. Let's face it. "None Were With Him" is the title of his talk. It is an awesome talk so I would encourage

Tammy 40:08

So good

Tyler Collet 40:09

everybody to read, Yes. It just really personalizes everything. And in that talk, he says, "It is one of the ironies of history that sitting with Jesus in prison was a real blasphemer, a murderer and revolutionary known as Barabbas, a name or title in Aramaic meaning "son of the Father." So one godless "son of father" was set free while a truly divine Son of His Father moved on to crucifixion."

Abe Mills 40:38

Wow.

Tammy 40:39

Yep

Tyler Collet 40:39

Isnt that something?

Tammy 40:41

I loved learning that about his name, that Barabbas literally means "son of father", and then here's Christ, Son of THE Father. And they choose Barabbas. Yes. Oh, so good.

Abe Mills 40:52

It's like they had a 50/50 chance, man. They had a 50/50 chance.

Tyler Collet 40:55

50/50 chance.

Abe Mills 40:56

And it makes you wonder, it makes you wonder how many high priests - Jewish high priests - were down in the crowd influencing the rest of the crowd.

Tammy 41:05

For sure. They absolutely were. Yeah

yeah.

Well, and Abe, I love when you put your hands up like this, because in the next segment we're going to read a verse of Scripture that has something to do with hands and the way Pilate reacted to all of this. So we'll do that next.

Segment 4 41:32

.....

Tammy 41:32

All right. So Abe, I just want you to read these verses of scripture because you held your hands up. And as Abe reads these verses from Matthew 27:24 and 25, I want you to tell me, what did these actions tell us about Pilate? So we are in Matthew 27:24 and 25.

Abe Mills 41:51

All right. "When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it. Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children."

Tammy 42:14

Oh,

Abe Mills 42:15

Oh, wow

Tyler Collet 42:15

They shouldn't have said that.

Abe Mills 42:17

When you think about all the things that you can say in anger, you know, that you might want to take back. And clearly they were in anger, in the worst type of anger that you can be in, you know, something that you're willing to, to say iHs blood's on my hands and on my children's hands? Wow.

Tyler Collet 42:38

Yeah, that's, that is a big, big Yikes.

Tammy 42:42

Right. What does it tell us about Pilate washing his hands? And we know what he says, but what does it signify to you?

Abe Mills 42:49

That he knows that Christ is innocent.

Exactly. And I can't imagine the conversations, we got the one conversation that he had with his wife, but I'm sure his wife is like, Now you know, you know. And they probably had had a conversation about it, on top of the fact that he knew already.

Tyler Collet 43:05

Speaking of his wife, she sent him a note saying, Hey, I had this bad dream

Tammy 43:09

right

Tyler Collet 43:10

that if, that if you have anything to do with the death of Christ, bad things are gonna happen to us. And so maybe that was him saying I am innocent of the blood. Right.

Abe Mills 43:22

Right.

Tammy 43:23

Totally. So he kind of muscles into his wife a little bit.

Tyler Collet 43:25

A little bit, yeah.

Tammy 43:27

So let's go and read what the crowd had to say after this moment. There are three recordings of what the people said. We're each going to go to one of the different recordings; I want us to read the words of the crowd. So Tyler, please turn to Luke 23:21. Abe, will you please go to John 19:14-15. I'm going to be in Mark 15:13-14. I just want us to read what our verses say. Go ahead, Tyler.

Tyler Collet 43:56

I'm gonna give a little quick backstory. So once Barabas had been released, Pilate's like, Well what do you want me to do with him? And in 21, verse 21, "But they cried saying, Crucify him. Crucify Him."

Tammy 44:14

Thank you Abe.

Abe Mills 44:15

"And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your king! But they cried out, Away with him, away with Him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your king? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar.

Tammy 44:37

Okay. And then in Mark 15:13-14. Well, verse 12 does say it. "And Pilate answered and said again unto them, What will ye then that I shall do unto him whom ye call the King of the Jews? And they cried out again, Crucify Him. Then Pilate said unto them, Why, what evil hath he done? And they cried out the more exceedingly, Crucify Him." Something that's interesting about all three of our accounts is the word "cried" where it says they "cried out." And here's something really interesting: That word "cried out" is the exact same Greek word that was used to describe the exact same crowd, who just days before "cried out" at the triumphal entry "Hosanna".

Tyler Collet 45:21

I'm so glad you brought that up.

Tammy 45:23

Tell me why, Tyler?

Tyler Collet 45:25

Well, because I had the same thought. I wonder how many people that were crying out "crucify him" were the same exact ones waving palm leaves as Christ entered Jerusalem.

Tammy 45:42

Well, and it says, as he's entering Jerusalem, one verse says "a great multitude", and the other says "much people." So we know there were so many people there yelling "Hosanna". And then the same group of people, in Greek the word is KRAZO, "to cry out loudly with urgency, to express deep emotion." Can you imagine that people going from this deep emotion of "Hosanna," which is "save us", now in Hebrew to crucify him?

Abe Mills 46:11

Well, I think, I think it does kind of show, you know, when you, when you don't lplace your faith in God, but just kind of like you go with the crowd, or you, you know, the way that it says in the scriptures is, you know, you waverith in the sea, like the wind. But it's like, you know, these people could have been those that were like, Oh, what's going on here? Oh, we're, this is the king. We're saying "Hosanna, Hosanna." And then the next week, they're like, Oh, that person wasn't the right person? Oh, well, yeah, definitely. You know, they're just, they're being driven to whatever way that the popular, the popular voice is saying. And I feel like, you know, this isn't something that's just for those people those days, but this is something that we can see today. And in different ways.

Tammy 47:09

Ooh I like that connection that you just made is how many times we're actually influenced by the crowd. And it goes back to the Gatorade thing. Like how many different flavors of Gatorade we're willing to try before we really realize there's only one that's good.

Abe Mills 47:25

Right?

Tammy 47:26

Oh, wow. It's Christ. Abe, I like that connection. Okay, so after they yell this out with exact, with all this emotion to crucify him, let's go to Mark 15:21. This has become my favorite part of the story and I loved studying this. So in Mark 15:21, I'll read It says, "And they compel one Simon a Cyrenian, who passed by, coming out of the country, the father of Alexander and Rufus, to bear his cross." Now that struck me; I know the story about Simon the Cyrenian, and that he carried the cross. Now, let me tell you what part of the cross this was. It's been argued, but probably rightly, that the cross that Jesus carried was not the entire Latin cross as traditionally portrayed. Rather, it was just the crossbar, which would have been a heavy piece of wood. And it would have weighed about 75 to 125 pounds, and capable of being fastened on a vertical pole or beam. So right there, I'm out. Like 75 to 125 pounds.? There's no way I could carry that. So Simon is going to carry that crossbar for Jesus.

But when I read verse 21 I thought, why do we care that he's the father of Alexander and Rufus. Like, isn't that interesting? They tell us his son's names. Let's cross reference that verse with Romans 16:13, and you guys, this is so cool. Romans 16:13. And if you go there, you want to know this story. K, Romans 16:13, and here's what verse 13 says. It's listing believers in this chapter ,and it says, "Salute Rufus chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine." Okay. That's the same Rufus as in this verse. And Rufus, his father carried the cross. Now listen to this: Many scholars believe that Simon was converted through this one act. It has been suggested by others it's quite possible that the gospel came into Simon's life, as well into his family's life as a result of his seemingly chance encounter with the Savior of the world at the very moment he was on his way to Golgotha to complete the atoning event, that at this core of our Father's plan for all creation. I mean, that just blew my mind.

The power of the event in which Simon had a role, and which he later came to comprehend, ultimately resulted in his own conversion, as well as that of his wife, his sons and possibly future generations. You can read about that in a book called "Golgotha" by Andrew Skinner. And then it made me just think, and I want you to consider this for a moment. Every single one of us listening, have either I'm from a Simon, or we are a Simon, that the crosses are borne by everyone that is converted to Christ. And it is not easy, and it is heavy, and the benefits far outweigh the pain. And I thought of the two of you as dads, as the Simons in this story. I just want you to describe for us right now, as fathers, tell me about the load that you carry when it comes to life and church and everything.

Abe Mills 50:26

Well, I feel like, you know, as a father, with the, with as busy as life can get, there is a way for it to kind of like just go right past you, in those moments that you can take a seat and that you can think about and really ponder about what our role as fathers is. When you think about our kids and we think about our relationship with our wife, it just all of it is so important. And it all starts with that relationship that we have with God. And so it's super important. I think, when I think about this and the load that we carry, I don't know that I could start a list and actually write down everything that I'm responsible for. But you just, without God, it's really hard to fulfill any of those responsibilities. And definitely it's really difficult and impossible to fill, fulfill all of them without the help from God.

Tammy 51:19

Is your bar heavy, Abe?

Abe Mills 51:22

Definitely, definitely, it's heavy. And I can't, I can't lift it by myself. And so there's, there are people in my life. You know, the number one, like I said, is God, our Heavenly Father and our Savior, Jesus Christ. And then, you know, my wife helps me lift that bar. And the people that I surround myself with help me lift that bar. So it's super important that we're, that we're walking on the right path so that we can get those people that can help us lift that. Nobody can lift it better than the Savior.

Tammy 51:53

Absolutely. What about you, Ty. Is your bar heavy?

Tyler Collet 51:58

You know, some days it is and some days it doesn't feel like it is. It just depends on what's going on at the time. But just like Abe, I've got a multitude of support: immediate family, extended family, close friends, the Savior, our ward members. I'm a big introvert; your listeners may now know this: I'm a big introvert, I don't enjoy large social gatherings, not like I used to. But the ward family that we have here is wonderful. I would be more than happy to accept service and help from any one of them. Because as an introvert, I don't like getting help from other people. I feel like it's something that I can do on my own. I don't need their help unless I'm in a huge jam. And even then I'm reluctant to ask just because I don't like putting other people out. I don't, you know.

But as Abe said, you know, a loving wife, she is so wonderful in her support for me. My kids support me. And you know, in my profession, that is huge. Because on the daily, I get people that mock me, I get people, I've been spit on before. I've daily been cursed out before. So it's, that can weigh on you. And the fact that my family supports me, loves me, is awesome. But it doesn't compare to the love and support that my Heavenly Father gives Me and that my Savior gives me. And all I got to do is just every day think of Them. Tell Them thank you for being here, for having a family that supports and loves me. So yeah, my bar can be heavy at times, but at other times not so much.

Tammy 53:55

All right, you two. I want to end this segment by going back to verse 21. And I want you to read it with your name, where you're from, and your kids' names.Hit it, Abe.

Abe Mills 54:05

All right. And they compel one Abe a Floridian who passed by, coming out of the country, the father of Jackson, Tyson, Jordan, Mariah, Giuliana, and Jaden, to bear His cross.

Go ahead, Tyler.

Tyler Collet 54:23

And they compel one Tyler a Utahn who passed by, coming out of the country, the father of Kaylee, Sydney, Ellissa, Andrew, and Carson, to bear His cross.

Tammy 54:35

Thank you.I want everyone listening to take a moment and consider how are you bearing His cross, and know that the job you're doing is outstanding. And you're doing it for the ones you love. Just like our Savior will be able to come and help you. Simon did it and it was for the benefit of his family and every one of us are just doing our best. And I like how both of you noted that it's the Savior and our Heavenly Father helps you carry it. So thank you for that beautiful moment. I know you both very well and you're doing a great job bearing that cross. I want to like say "In the name of Jesus Christ, Amen." That was powerful when you both read those verses.

Hoh. K,

Tyler Collet 55:14

It was, got me a little teary on that one.

Tammy 55:17

Yeah. Thank you for doing that. Okay, so in the next segment, we're going to talk about more aspects of the crucifixion. We'll do that next

Seg,emt 5 55:23

.....

Tammy 55:37

All right, just so we're clear, we do not have enough time to cover everything that happened at the crucifixion. So I'm gonna highly recommend you go check out our show notes. We have a list with scriptures of all that took place. And what we don't get to, I just encourage you to go and read, because there's so much that plays an important role into this whole story. But Tyler and Abe have both agreed to help me with some of these aspects, and they have prepared some stuff to teach us about. So I'm grateful for their help. So go ahead and hit it, Tyler. You've got, what you're gonna tell us about where Simon went with that crossbar.

Tyler Collet 56:12

Matthew 27:33. This place was called Golgotha, or Calvary.

Tammy 56:19

Okay, let's go there real quick. Matthew 27:33. I'll read it. In verse 33. "And when they were come unto the place called Golgotha, that is to say, a place of a skull."

Tyler Collet 56:29

Now, what's interesting about this place is having been to Israel, having been to the area they believe to be Golgotha, there is a rock formation there. And through the many, many years of earthquakes or destruction or water damage, if you use your imagination, you can kind of see a skull formation in the rocks. There, you can Google Golgotha, and it will show you pictures from mid 1900s to the later 1900s. And it actually does look like a skull. I think so anyway. And that - and correct me if I'm wrong - but that is like within just distance of where it His cross may have been placed. Which is kind of ironic, right? Because when you think of skull, you think of death, or at least I do anyway. And that's where they decide to place, now maybe that was a designated spot, I don't know.

Yeah.

But the fact is that He was crucified in this area, and there was a skull in the rock. A lot of symbolism in that, I think.

Tammy 57:39

Oh, yeah. And you really do see the skull. It's, it really did surprise me. Like, huh. No wonder it's called Golgotha plays with a skull. Nice Tyler. Okay, so they go in, they crucify him. I thought this was interesting: In none of the Gospel accounts does it say that the Savior had nails go through his hands or his wrists. It will actually be in all of his appearances in Third Nephi chapter 11. Also in Psalms chapter 22 is the prediction that it will happen. And so I thought that was fascinating is, it will be when He comes back and is resurrected, that we realize, Oh my gosh! What are the prints in Your hands and in Your feet? And that's when we learned He was nailed to the cross that way.

When he was nailed to the cross, they put a sign above the Savior's head. In Mark 15:26, and in John 19:19, let's go to John 19:19. I thought this was an interesting part of the story. John 19:19, and it says, "And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.. Now listen to this in verses 20 and 21 and 22. "This title then read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in Hebrew, and Greek, and Latin. Then said the chief priests of the Jews to Pilate, Write not, The King of the Jews; but that he said, I am King of the Jews. Pilate answered, What I have written I have written." Like I think it's like, We didn't, it's not supposed to say King of the Jews. And Pilate's like, It does. So there's that I just thought, great aspect of the story. Okay, so there He is on the cross. And now Abe is going to talk to us about who was hung with Him. Okay, Abe, hit it.

Abe Mills 59:25

Alright, so Jesus is being crucified, and He's on the cross with these two thieves, one on the right and one on the left. And the one is saying, Hey, if you're really this guy that they're saying, you should basically save us. So after the one says, if thou be Christ, save thyself and us. He's like, Come on. We're all together in this, you know. And then the other one answering, rebuked him saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we in deed justly, for we receive the due reward for our deeds. But this man hath done nothing amiss. And then, of course he asked Jesus, Lord, please remember me when thou comest to Thy kingdom. And I thought, you know, that conversation was interesting because you have somebody who knows in that moment. And of course, Christ tells him that He will be with him that day in paradise. But I think, when I was reading this, I kind of was reading it with a bunch of other things that you had sent. And I started thinking about it, and one of the things we're gonna talk about later, which was "Woman, behold thy son."

Tammy 1:00:34

Yeah.

Abe Mills 1:00:34

And in the in the other one, Jesus says, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." So, you know, we talked about carrying that bar. And here Jesus was, being crucified, going through something that He said He would do because it was the Father's will. And knowing that that's what had to be done. And yet, here He is, also being Jesus Christ, which is worrying about everybody else, trying to get everybody else in order, and making sure that they themselves are being ministered to, while He's in the middle of this crisis. He's worried about this man on the cross, he's worried about Mary and about Peter, and He's worried about the people that are there that are doing all these bad things to Him. As His job as the Mediator, He's already mediating before He's even completed the task for which He has the power to do it.

Tammy 1:01:30

Oh, wow. Abe. let's stop on that for a minute. That is so powerful. He's already mediating for the job that He hasn't finished or completed yet. I think that's why when we talk about how it's infinite, the Atonement is infinite, that He mediated before He was born, He mediates here before He dies, and He'll mediate after. Like, the effects of the Atonement spanned all-mankind before it actually happened. Oh, that was good Abe.

Abe Mills 1:01:57

Well, and it's interesting, because if you read even about the Roman soldier that says, "Surely this man was the Son of God," I wonder how much of these, how many of these conversations He was watching and observing, and listening to, and seeing. This is so interesting that this Person's going through this and yet He's concerned about this person, He's speaking with this person, He's telling God to forgive people. He's like, this is not like any person that I've ever seen before.

Tammy 1:02:26

Yeah. Well and when I asked you two to consider the last words the Savior said and tell me some of your thoughts, I sent you the references for His last words on the cross. What did that teach you about Him? And you've already kind of told us a little bit about that, Abe. Tyler, jump in if you've got anything.

Tyler Collet 1:02:41

I do, it's kind of a long quote if that's all right.

Tammy 1:02:46

What do you got?

Tyler Collet 1:02:46

I got it from the man, Elder Holland. (laughter)

Abe Mills 1:02:50

We love Elder Holland.

Tyler Collet 1:02:51

Again,

Tammy 1:02:52

Hit it

Tyler Collet 1:02:52

Same talk, "None Were With Him". He says, "Now I speak very carefully, even reverently, of what may have been the most difficult moment in all of this solitary journey to Atonement. I speak of those final moments for which Jesus must have been prepared intellectually and physically but which he may not have fully anticipated emotionally and spiritually - that concluding descent into the paralyzing despair of divine withdrawal when He cries in ultimate loneliness, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" The loss of mortal support He had anticipated, but apparently He had not comprehended this. Had He not said to his disciples, "Behold, the hour ...is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me" and "The Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please Him"?

"With all of the conviction of my soul, I testify that He DID please his Father perfectly and that a perfect Father did NOT forsake His Son in that hour. Indeed, it is my personal belief that in all of Christ's mortal ministry the Father may have never been closer to His Son than in those agonizing final moments of suffering. Nevertheless, that the supreme sacrifice of His Son might be as complete as it was voluntary and solitary, the Father briefly withdrew from Jesus the comfort of His Spirit, the support of His personal presence. It was required, indeed it was central to the significance of the Atonement, that this perfect Son who had never spoken ill, nor done wrong nor touched an unclean thing had to know how the rest of humankin - us, all of us - would feel when we did commit such sins. For His Atonement to be infinite and eternal, He had to feel what it was like to die not only physically but spiritually, to sense what it was like to have the divine Spirit withdraw, leaving one feeling totally, abjectly, hopelessly alone."

And I may not be answering your question exactly. I'm sorry.

Tammy 1:05:30

No, you're doing great.

Tyler Collet 1:05:03

But I think of what has transpired the night before and the suffering in the garden. The scourging. Let's not forget, He has open sores on his back. He has, think of insects, think of birds maybe trying to eat it at those sores, or starting to. You put all of that together and you know how alone, even for a moment, He must have felt. But He had to, as Elder Holland said, for us, so He could understand us in our days so He could truly understand what it was like to be alone. We will never feel what He felt, we will never sink to that despair. But to know that He will always be there, if we just look for Him. I don't know if that answered your question or not. I maybe went off on a tangent, but

Tammy 1:06:09

It answered it beautifully, Tyler. Thank you so much for including all of His last words right there. And Abe, you did a beautiful job, too. I appreciate that you included some of His last words were to His mother and to John, when He said to her "Woman behold thy Son." I, you know, and we often wonder like, why would you say woman because today if you say, if you call a lady, Hey, woman, it's derogatory term. But at this time, it was one of the most treasured words you could ever call someone. And so and we have that in our journal. But I thought what stood out to me was that James E Talmage wrote that "while Christ hung in dying agony on the cross, He looked down upon His weeping mother, and commended her to the care of his beloved Apostle John with the words "Woman, behold thy Son." And then he says this, Can it be thought that in this supreme moment, our Lord's concern for the mother from whom He was about to be separated by death, was associated with any emotion other than that of honor, tenderness, and love?" And going back to what you said, Tyler, He was worried she would be alone. And even on the cross He made sure she wouldn't be.

Abe Mills 1:07:16

Yeah. And when you think about that, I'm sorry. Before I did say that, I did say Peter, for some reason. I was meant to say, John. But when you think about Him being on the cross and, you know, you read Elder Holland's quote, and it said, about his, about emotions, emotionally, was He not prepared for it? And I thought, you know, that's interesting, because, you know, when we see that He cried, when, even though He was about to raise Lazarus from the dead, He still cried. Because there's more people involved, and they're going through emotions, and He understands those emotions. And so He's having His own emotional adventure there.

But also, He's worried about the emotions of those people around Him and the things they were all going through at the same time. So in a way, the Garden of Gethsemane, even though in the Garden of Gethsemane, it was really the sins of everyone else, right, that He was taking upon Him, He was still taking upon Him other people's sadnesses and things like that he didn't quite fully leave that there, because there was always other people that He was concerned about. And you know what it's like to worry about somebody, you know, if you're a parent and you you have children, then you know what it's like to worry for a child. And I'm sure that He was worried for His mother. And like I say, all of this, His children around. And so I just think, yeah, that emotional stress, and all of the physical things He had to go through. I mean, we can't wrap our mind, I can't wrap my mind around it.

Tammy 1:08:59

No.

Tyler Collet 1:08:59

You know what, and that's the beauty of the word love. I mean, it just is so powerful. It causes us to do things we thought we would never do.,Ssy things we would never say, whatever. And if this isn't the perfect example of what pure love is. For my simple mind, I don't know what else is.

Tammy 1:09:22

He loves you. He loves us. Wow, thank you to both of you for coming so well-prepared to discuss that. You know, in Matthew 27:50, it says, "Jesus, when he had cried up with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost." And so after this had happened and everything we've talked about, when Jesus died, his disciples sought to remember and honor Him. And so we're going to learn how they did that in the next segment.

Segment 6 1:09:49

.....

Tammy 1:09:49

All right, you two. I want you to think of women in your life who you would describe as great. Now, what are some of the qualities that make these women great?

Abe Mills 1:10:08

Kind, Loving, Strong,

Tyler Collet 1:10:12

Strong. Yeah, that's a great one, Abe. Faithful, inclusive.

Tammy 1:10:18

Oh, yeah.

Tyler Collet 1:10:20

Service.

Abe Mills 1:10:21

They serve.

Tammy 1:10:22

Ooh, very good answers. I appreciate no one said "they could make me a sandwich." I think your answers are so - that's what Jim my husband would say - "can she make me a sandwich?" He says other good things too, I'm just kidding.

Abe Mills 1:10:36

That's great.

Tammy 1:10:37

All right. I appreciate all of the qualities that you listed because I think we could use the exact same qualities to describe the women that we read about in Luke 23:49. So let's turn there. Luke 23:49. And then we're going to cross reference this verse. Okay, so Luke 23:49 says, "And all his acquaintance, and the women that followed him from Galilee, stood afar off, beholding these things." So they're seeing everything that's happening here at the crucifixion. And now cross reference that with Mark 15:40-41. And now we're going back and forth a lot, but it's worth it. Mark 15: 40 and 41. And Tyler, will you read that for us.

Tyler Collet 1:11:28

"There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Solomon.

Tammy 1:11:40

oop, Salome,

Tyler Collet 1:11:41

Salome. Thank you.

Tammy 1:11:42

Salome is her name. Go ahead and read that again..

Tyler Collet 1:11:46

There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome;

Tammy 1:11:58

And the next verse

Tyler Collet 1:11:59

in the next verse, "(Who also, when he was in Galilee, followed him and ministered unto him;) and many other women which came up with him unto Jerusalem."

Tammy 1:12:07

Awesome. Now who could have these other women be from Galilee? Well, Camille Fronk Olson beautifully taught us in our "Unnamed Women" series, it could have easily have been Joanna, Mary, Martha, where's Mary and Martha, right? And Lazarus, Lazarus's sisters could have been there, and His mother, absolutely. Any of the women that He performed miracles with could have also been there. And these women, this is what Elder Bruce R McConkie had to say about these women. So here's a really great quote, I just have to read it. I'm sorry, it's about women. I might be talking a lot, but I love this. He says this.

"These were great and faithful women who followed our Lord and who, for their faith and righteousness shall be exalted to thrones of glory." Wow. He's describing these exact women. And he says they're great, because they, with two others, sought the body of Jesus and met at the tomb and prepared it for burial. Now the two other people that joined them were Nicodemus, and he was the secret believer that came at night back in John chapter 3, and asked Jesus about the Spirit and baptism. And then we also have a man by the name of Joseph of Arimathea. And his verse is found in Matthew 27:57. He petitioned Pilate for the body of Jesus to give it a proper burial. It was his land and his tomb that Jesus was buried in. So I thought that was pretty interesting.

Okay, so we have these people, they've taken the body of Jesus, they're up at the tomb, they are wrapping the body in linen wraps, and they're covering it in all sorts of different spices, getting it ready for the burial. But what I want to do now is we're gonna pause in the story right here. And I want us to go back to how we started, when the Savior was on the cross. They needed to get the body off before the Sabbath began before sundown. And so what they decided to do was go ahead and break the bones, or the legs, so that it would speed up the death of all three people on the cross. But for whatever reason, they were like, No, no, let's not do that. They didn't break the bones of Jesus Christ. And that is prophecy: there will be no broken bone in Him. What they did instead is found in John chapter 19. We're going to connect some verses right here. So turn with me to John chapter 19. Will you please read verses 31-37?

Tyler Collet 1:14:24

Yes. "The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him. But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs: But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. For these things were done, that the scriptures should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced."

Tammy 1:15:17

K, I'm gonna give you the cross references. We're not going to turn there, but you'll want them. The scriptures that are fulfilled, "that there would not be a bone broken" is in Exodus 12:46, so put that next to verse 36. And also Numbers 9:12. And then next to verse 37 where it says, "And again, another scripture saith, They shall look on him who may pierced," you can find that in Zechariah 12:10. So they pierced His side with a sword just to make sure He's dead. And I want you to connect that verse. So go back up to verse 34., and I want you to connect it to Luke 2:35. And let's turn there, we are going to go back to how this whole story began, the birth of Jesus Christ.

Tyler Collet 1:16:02

Tammy, isn't that amazing on piercing the side of your ribs? Your ribs are very close together and for the blade to go right in between the ribs without trying. That's pretty incredible.

Tammy 1:16:19

Absolutely. So that prophecy could be fulfilled. If you don't think God is in the details.

Right?

He's in the details of the details of the details, as we heard in Conference, so, thank you Tyler. Okay, so we go back to Luke chapter 2, and we're going to look at verse 35. The context of this, and we've studied this before, and many of you are going to have it marked in your scriptures.,Tte Savior is being brought back to the temple. And this is where Simeon and Anna are going to prophesy of the Savior's mission, as a small baby. And verse 35 is a prophecy that Simeon gives - he blesses. Go to verse 34. "And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against."

Now look at 35, "Yea, a sword shall pierce through thine own soul also, that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed." Now the Joseph Smith translation of verse 35 is actually this: "A spear shall pierce through him, which is Christ, to the wounding of thine, (Mary's) own soul, also. That we ended with the spear going through his side, but that Mary would feel that, and it was prophesied that this would happen. And so I wanted us just to kind of think about this, and we've definitely experienced it today in thought, in word, in feeling and emotion. I just want to know from both of you as we complete this whole episode on the crucifixion, that how has studying the Savior's crucifixion pierced your own soul?

Tyler Collet 1:17:53

For me, it goes back to what I kind of already said, just to attempt to understand the amount of love that He has for us, because there is no other way outside of love that that could have happened. And it's a level of love that I don't know. And I probably won't know. And that's not to say I don't love my kids, because I would, or my wife or my family, I would do anything for them. I would literally die for them. But I don't think me saying that justifies the amount of love that Christ has, because mine's for my family. Right? And my friends. I don't know Joe Blow down the street. I wouldn't be lay...maybe I won't be willing to lay down my life.,I don't know. Maybe in my job I would but outside, maybe not. I don't know. I haven't been put in that situation, I hope to never be. But I know Christ would without hesitation. Doesn't matter who. It could be a murderer, it could be a robber, t could be the guy that is ridiculing Him and spitting on Him. It doesn't matter to Him because His love is just, and that's, that's what I really have learned from that is the amount of love that it takes.

Abe Mills 1:19:19

I think when you look at it, and you say Okay, if I was to picture myself or someone else doing something that you just know,you're not supposed to do - something wrong or making a mistake. And you think of, you know, like Hey, there's this punishment, you know, that you're gonna get for this. And but then somebody comes and says, Hey, I'm going to do this for you. And then you have to watch this person go through all of the all this for you.

And you know, when you look at the life of Christ, and especially the last week of Jesus Christ's life, it really pierces, it pierced my heart, pierces my heart that He would go through that, for me, kind of say, Step aside. I don't want you to have to bear this burden, I will bear this burden. And then He makes our burden light, meaning that He makes it so that the things that we have to go through in order to make it right are a lot less than what He had to go through, to endure to make it so that we could do that. And that pierces my heart because it just means that we have a 2nd chance, we have a 3rd chance, we have a 4th chance, we have a 5th chance. And you start thinking, How many times have we fallen short? And that the only way that we can ever make up that distance is through our Savior, Jesus Christ, because of these things that He's done?

Tammy 1:20:46

Yeah, I like how you said 'make up the distance.' Thank you Abe, thank you Tyler. Wow. Okay, let's all take a big deep breath. We did it. Oh, that was heavy, heavy, heavy. Thank you. I just again, can't think of two finer men to be with me for this episode. Thank you for coming prepared, you guys. That was awesome.

Tyler Collet 1:21:07

Thank you for having us.

Abe Mills 1:21:08

Thanks for having us.

Tyler Collet 1:21:09

This was a great opportunity for me.

Tammy 1:21:12

It was an honor to talk about Christ. Thank you. Okay, so just gather your thoughts. And what was your takeaway? What's a moment something you learned or a moment in this episode you're like, Huh. Go ahead and share it.

Abe Mills 1:21:25

So I think, you know, listening to everything that was said, and thinking of all the things that from reading through and just pondering. You know there's never a time, I think the one thing that sticks with me is that there's never a time where we've descended below Christ. And you know, we think about the thing, Joseph Smith was complaining to the Lord about being in jail and said, Christ has been has descended below them all. Are we better than Him? And I think about that in my life because sometimes life can feel like there's so many things going on, that things can be hard. But there are so many wonderful things in our lives. And I think that Christ did these things so that when in our lives, we can focus on those wonderful things. Because as long as we know that there's Jesus Christ, and that He has done these things for us - and we believe this, we really truly believe it. In Ether, it says that "whosoever believeth that God might with surety hope for a better world."Whether that means the whole world or just means your world. Whether that means a better world eternally, or a better world today. We can with surety hope for that. And I believe that hope comes from seeing what Christ went through. And knowing that He did it for us.

Tammy 1:22:50

Ah, so good Abe, thank you. I put 'hope.' I wrote down hope. Thank you. Tyler.

Tyler Collet 1:22:57

Yeah, as Abe was talking, got me thinking, similar, you know, struggles every day. But then I got thinking, for less than silver pieces do I become a form of Judas? Do I betray Christ in sin? And do I do it intentionally or unintentionally? So for me, it's, you know, I, I'm going to try to continue to see people as God sees them. And the only way to do that is to have love for our fellow man.

Tammy 1:23:36

Yeah.

Tyler Collet 1:23:37

And so I think if I can do that, I'll be more focused on loving my fellow man, and part of that is service. And the 30 pieces of silver or less, you know, it won't, I don't think I'll have to worry about that. Because I'll be so focused on being a disciple of Christ, and doing what He would do. And for me, that's, I think that's my takeaway, is being more like Christ in my daily life, you know. Getting the 30 pieces of silver or less out of my hand, and, and remembering the love that Christ has. Because, yeah, He suffered, but I want to say He loved.

Tammy 1:24:24

Yeah,

Tyler Collet 1:24:25

I want to say that He loved us. I don't want to say that He suffered, but He did. But I like the term love better. And so He loved us so much that He was willing to do all of that. And so I want to take that same love and I want to apply it to my life and to my fellow man.

Tammy 1:24:43

Great answer, especially with your occupation. Cuz you're a cop.

Abe Mills 1:24:47

Yeah. I loved that. Yeah, Tyler that's amazing. And just to add really quickly to it, is that when we look at what President Nelson had to say this last conference, and really many of the talks focused around just the kind of way we treat each other and becomingo peacemakers.

Tyler Collet 1:25:02

Yeah,

Abe Mills 1:25:03

Christ was a peacemaker. Right. Even through his crucifixion, he was a peacemaker.

Tammy 1:25:07

Yeah Yeah Yeah.

Tyler Collet 1:25:08

Yeah, so true.

Abe Mills 1:25:09

And we look at that, what a great example for us; great that it's come back to become, you know, one of the most current counsels that we've been given by a prophet.

Tammy 1:25:20

Amen. Wow, you two. This was so great. For sure my takeaway was when you guys put your names in that verse of scripture about Simon, and you, you listed the names of your kids, I felt it. That was such a cool moment, the crosses that you bear, the cross that everybody bears for their children. But I hope when all is said and done, and a scripture verse is written about me, that might be the best verse. I just want one verse that says my name, my kids' names, and that I carried the cross. And I loved that verse and your application of it. So thank you. This was such a good episode. I really appreciate you guys doing this with me today. Thank you.

Abe Mills 1:25:59

Thank you, Tammy.

Tammy 1:26:01

Sure love ya. That's it.

Tyler Collet 1:26:02

Thank you, Abe.

Abe Mills 1:26:03

We love you, I love you too, Tyler.do love you.

Tyler Collet 1:26:03

You guys are so wonderful and amazing. It's great to learn from you guys.

Tammy 1:26:10

Amen. See you guys.

Tyler Collet 1:26:12

See you guys.

Abe Mills 1:26:12

Thank you guys. Bye bye.

Tyler Collet 1:26:14

Bye-bye.

Abe Mills 1:26:14

Bye.

Tammy 1:26:14

Okay. Oh, gosh, that was such a great discussion. Okay. Well, if you haven't already joined our discussion group on Facebook or an Instagram, you should. It is a great place to share what you've learned, as well as ask any questions that you have throughout the week as you're studying. And then on a Saturday, we're going to post a question from this specific episode. So comment on the post that relates to this lesson, share your answer and your thoughts. You can get to both our Facebook and Instagram by going to the show notes for this episode on LDS living.com/sunday On Monday, and it's not a bad idea to go there anyway. It's where we're gonna have the links to all the references, you're going to want them, as well as so much more information we didn't have time to cover, so go check that out, especially if you're teaching a class, you're going to want that information. And then we're going to have a complete transcript of this whole discussion and a glue-in that you're gonna want to put in your scriptures.

The Sunday on Monday Study Group is Deseret Bookshelf Plus original brought to you by LDS Living. It's written and hosted by me, Tammy Uzelac Hall and today our just marvelous study group participants - Wow - they were Tyler Collet and Abe Mills. And you can find more information about my friends at LDS living.com/sunday on Monday. Our podcast is produced by Cole Wissinger and me. It is edited by Hailey Higham, and recorded and mixed by Mix At Six Studios, and our executive producer is Erin Hallstrom. Thanks for being here. We'll see you next week.

And I really hope you do know and believe, especially after today's episode, that You are God's favorite.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai