25: “Not My Will, but Thine, Be Done” (Luke 22; John 18)

Tammy 0:00

Continuing on from last week's episode, it is now very late Thursday night, and we have come to the Savior's final hours, which are what Elder Holland calls 'the loneliest journey ever made.' Our study of Luke 22 and John 18 will take a look at some of the Savior's loneliest hours, and how significant those hours would become for us when we are so desperately lonely. Welcome to the Sunday on Monday Study Group, a Deseret Bookshelf Plus original brought to you by LDS Living where we take the Come, Follow Me lesson for the week and we really dig into the scriptures together. I'm your host, Tammy Uzelac Hall.

Tammy 0:37

Now if you're new to our study group, we want to make sure you know how to use this podcast, so follow the link in our description. It's going to explain how you can best use this podcast to enhance your Come, Follow Me study just like my friend Rosie Nelson. Hello, Rosie. And you are in for a real treat today because Rosie, you know who my guest is? Each week, you guys, we're joined by two of my friends. And so it's a little bit different every week and this week we have - oh, I'm so excited - Charmaine Howell and Grant Stuckie. Hi, you two.

Charmaine 1:05

Hey

Grant 1:06

Hey

Tammy 1:06

Char's back, from Minnesota. I mean, well, she's not back.

Charmaine 1:10

Still back in Minnesota.

Tammy 1:12

Still there. Okay, tell all of our listeners, how do you two know each other?

Charmaine 1:16

Well, Grant and I met in a BYU tap dance class. Just kidding. We did take a tap dance class together, but Grant's my brother.

Tammy 1:28

You really did take a tap dance class together?

Charmaine 1:31

Yeah.

Grant 1:32

Yeah, clogging or something like that.

Charmaine 1:34

Yeah, it was super fun.

Tammy 1:35

Oh, my gosh. That is so fun.

Charmaine 1:37

Yeah

Grant 1:38

And ice hockey.

Charmaine 1:39

And ice hockey.

Grant 1:40

Good days, Char.

Charmaine 1:42

As different as it can be: dancing and ice hockey. You know, you gotta take those extracurriculars somewhere at BYU.

Tammy 1:50

So well-rounded. I'm very impressed. Who's older, who's younger?

Grant 1:53

I'm older

Charmaine 1:54

Grant's older.

Grant 1:55

By 6 years, yep.

Charmaine 1:57

Yeah. Grant's the older and wiser and taught me everything I know in high school.

Grant 2:03

Not true, not true.

Charmaine 2:05

At least you taught me how to play tennis. That's for sure.

Grant 2:09

Yep.

Tammy 2:10

It's so cool. And Grant, where do you live? Tell us a little bit about yourself, where do you live? Are you married? You have kids? What's your story?

Grant 2:17

So I'm in Highlands Ranch Colorado, just south of Denver suburb. Been here for about eight years. I'm an oral and maxillofacial surgeon. And I have six kids: three girls and three boys. And my wife and I just love living here. We love our ward and our stake and just tons of great people here. So, good place to be and to raise a family.

Tammy 2:38

Oh, cool. Where are you both originally from? Where did you grow up?

Grant 2:41

We both actually grew up in Southern California. KInd of right around the Los Angeles area.

Tammy 2:46

Oh, neat. Yeah. Oh, fun. Okay, well, you two. We're in for a treat. I asked her who she wanted to have joined me. Usually she has great - not usually - she always has good suggestions about who should be with her. And so I reached out to her and said, Okay, do you have any ideas? And she immediate was like, Could we have my brother?

Charmaine 2:48

Yeah.

Tammy 2:53

I know, isn't that awesome!

Grant 3:11

Thank you Char. That is awesome.

Charmaine 3:14

Yeah

Grant 3:14

I love Char, she's a good sister.

Charmaine 3:15

Grant's amazing. He's awesome, and he's also been teaching early morning seminary. So, you know, I thought he'd be just a great fit for this. Already studying his scriptures, you know, because he has to.

Tammy 3:15

There you go. So this will be fun. Now, hello, two seminary teachers are going to be in this episode. So this will be awesome, I'm super excited. And let me just ask you real quick. Do you have the boxes that I mailed you?

Charmaine 3:15

Yeah.

Tammy 3:15

Okay. Make sure

Charmaine 3:16

Got it, right here.

Grant 3:17

Yes.

Tammy 3:17

Okay, perfect. I sent something to them in the mail because they're, we're going to use it later on. So make sure you have that on hand. All right. How's that for a cliffhanger? What's in the box? So if you want to know you got to stick with us. So grab your scriptures, your scripture journals, and something to mark with, and Let's Dig In. Here we go. Okay, so here's something fun Char knows about me. I love to camp. Right, Char?

Charmaine 4:06

Oh, you love it so much. I think it's so great.

Tammy 4:10

How long have I been trying to get you to camp with me?

Charmaine 4:12

I know, I almost was able to come one year but then I'm glad I didn't because you had the torrential downpour and

Tammy 4:17

Okay, that's true.

Charmaine 4:17

And you guys were like sleeping in your cars and came back with horror stories. And hmm, glad I didn't go that year.

Tammy 4:23

That WAS one of the worst years of camping of times. Oh my gosh. And it was so funny because our friend Tammy, it was torrential, it was raining so hard. And it was a flash flood actually that came through and we were running to our cars, and my favorite part of that whole story is when my friend Tammy grabbed her sleeping son and she hands him off to me in the rain and yells, Take Sam, I'm going back for Isaac. Like we're in some church movie like Legacy right? Women fending for themselves in this storm and we're saving our children's lives and....Alrigh, alright, that wasn't the best camping moment, but it's a story. My kids still tell it.

Charmaine 4:58

Oh yeah, it's a good one. Then you go with just moms, which, you know, more power to you. Mom camp.

Tammy 5:04

You could come this year, I would love that.

Charmaine 5:06

I would love that too. Okay, I'm coming.

Tammy 5:10

Well, I'll tell you this. One of my favorite aspects of camping is when our camping trip falls on the same time as a full moon. Now have either of you been out at night with a full moon?

Charmaine 5:20

Uh huh.

Grant 5:21

Yes

Tammy 5:21

Tell me what, describe for me what that's like and when it's superduper bright. What does it do when there's a big full moon like that?

Grant 5:29

Lights up the whole sky, the whole area. You can see everything at night, where you're walking. It's pretty cool.

Charmaine 5:35

Yes.

Tammy 5:37

Have you ever seen a Moon Shadow?

Charmaine 5:40

No

Tammy 5:41

It shocked me when I first saw one. The moon one time was so bright that I looked down on the ground and I could see my own shadow.

Charmaine 5:46

Oh, yeah

Grant 5:48

Oh yeah.

Tammy 5:48

Isn't that great that the moon could do that!

Charmaine 5:51

Yeah.

Grant 5:51

That is cool.

Charmaine 5:52

Super cool.

Grant 5:52

That's cool.

Charmaine 5:52

Super cool.

Tammy 5:53

Now here's the reason I want you to be thinking about this idea of a full moon because, turn with me to Luke 22:39. Okay, here we go, Luke 22:39. Now the apostles and the Savior have finished everything at the Last Supper. And we know that they have been walking together and the Savior has been talking to them. And verse 39 tells us something about this walk. Char, will you please read verse 39.

Charmaine 6:17

Luke 22:39. "And he came out, and went, as he was wont ,to the mount of Olives; and his disciples also followed him."

Tammy 6:25

So they're following him. Now why would we care about a full moon? Here's why: Because Passover always fell and corresponded with a full moon. So it is believed by many scholars that the Savior and the apostles were walking to the Mount of Olives under the light of a full moon. Now, I asked you to kind of think about this. What do you think that walk might have been like? And for anyone who has been to Israel, it is not a flat walk. It is, they are on a hill, they're gonna go down in a valley, they're gonna come back up to a hill. The Mount of Olives is vast and long and it is going to be quite a walk. Describe for me some of the thoughts or feelings that maybe everyone's having.

Charmaine 6:25

I think I'm always before, I mean, for a while I kind of thought that maybe the apostles didn't know what was going on. And that they were just like, 'Okay, we're out on a walk now after our Passover dinner. What are we doing, you know? And so, I think I always thought they were just maybe just along for the ride. But the more I studied, the more I realized that they probably had that sense of what He was going to do, and that this was the great work that He was here for. And so just that feeling of anticipation, but also sorrow, and you know, wishing and hoping that they could, or just wishing they could do something for Him when they knew it was all on Him, you know.

Tammy 7:50

I like that description Char, wondering - and I like how you started - wondering like, where are we going? This is interesting. We're just out for a night stroll maybe? Yeah.

Charmaine 7:58

Yeah

Tammy 7:58

That they maybe knew.

Grant 7:59

Yeah. I was thinking as well. That's interesting, that phrase "as he was wont." And then I went to the footnote and it says "accustomed," which tells me that this was a pathway or a journey that they had done many times before. And it made me start of thinking like, you know, had Jesus walked this before, kind of knowing He would walk this final way and have the atonement happen? And was He kind of preparing it? And did He kind of want to walk through a way that was kind of accustomed to Him so that it just decreased the anxiety or the fear of the moment? And it kind of tells me, you know, how, and I'm guessing He did prepare and think about it a lot and maybe in the journeys, other journeys before, He kind of brooded on that and thought about it. But I'm sure there was a lot of emotions running through Him and the disciples as they were on this journey.

Grant 8:58

Yeah, absolutely. In fact, Grant, I'm really grateful you pointed out the word "wont". Let's cross reference that to John 18:1-2, and we're going to turn there. So cross reference that verse 39, to John 18:1 & 2. One of the scholars that I was reading said he believes that it could be possible that the apostles and the Savior were maybe thinking of the

Grant 9:22

Psalm 23:4 And that psalm is, "Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they shall comfort me." And again, going to this idea of this full moon, and they're seeing this shadow of themselves and He's talking about this shadow of death that actually is more prevalent than their own shadows under this full moon. And it's heavy, like you both described, and hard. And so they're having this experience and then, you know Grant, you pointed out, He was accustomed to this walk. So let's go to, we're in John chapter 18:1 & 2, and Grant, will you read those for us?

Grant 10:02

Yeah. It says "When Jesus had spoken these words, he went forth with his disciples over the brook Cedron, where was a garden, into the which he entered, and his disciples."

Tammy 10:14

Thank you. So that word wont right there. Yes, he was accustomed to that walk, and so are His disciples. This was a familiar trail and they had taken this together many times before. And so in the next segent, what we're going to do is we're going to find out what the name of that garden is and the significance of that name. We'll do that next.

Segment 2 10:57

.....

Tammy 10:57

Let's turn to Matthew chapter 26. Now I know that the Come, Follow Me lesson only covers Luke 22 and John 18. But I'm also going to include Matthew and Mark in this because they all four wrote their account of this experience. So I just felt like we couldn't study this whole experience they're having without hearing from all four of the gospel writers. Okay, so we're in Matthew chapter 26. And we're going to look at verse 36. We're going to find the name of the garden that they went to. Char, will you read verse 36 for us; and as she reads it, everyone underline the name of the garden.

Charmaine 11:36

Matt 26:36 "Then cometh Jesus with them unto a place called Gethsemane, and saith unto the disciples, Sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder."

Tammy 11:44

Okay, Char. What's the name of the garden?

Charmaine 11:46

Gethsemane.

Tammy 11:47

All right. Now, this word is a Hebrew word, and it's really powerful; it's two words, actually. The first word is Gath. It's spelled G A T H. And the second word is Shemen. S H E M E N. Now the word GATH in Hebrew means WINE PRESS. And the word SHEMEN in Hebrew means OIL. So the name Gethsemane literally means oil press, or a place where oil would be pressed. Now, there is a song that the Primary kids have been singing it the last couple of years, it's called "Gethsemane". Have you guys heard that before?

Charmaine 12:29

It's great song.

Tammy 12:30

Oh, I love it, it's one of my favorite songs. And when I taught this song to my Primary kids, I wanted them to understand something. Because the line starts out, "Jesus climbed a hill to a garden still." And so then I said to my Primary kids, Okay, what kind of garden was it? What was growing in the garden? And those hands went up, and it was adorable. And they were like, Carrots were growing, and onions, and they probably planted potatoes. And I said, those are all such really, really good guesses. But then I taught them, let me tell you what kind of garden it was. So you two grab your box.

Charmaine 13:03

Oh,

Tammy 13:03

There you go. You're going to open up your package.

Charmaine 13:06

Anticipation is over.

Tammy 13:07

Yep. Came this fast.

Charmaine 13:10

We were thinking it was a glitter bomb, so we'll see.

Tammy 13:15

Nothing will explode. And then when you, when you get at what's in that box, I want you to open that.

Charmaine 13:24

Ooh. Okay, all right, Tammy. A little lunch? (laughter)

Tammy 13:33

Okay. What did I send you?

Charmaine 13:37

A package of olives.

Tammy 13:38

What kind of olives?

Charmaine 13:40

Pitted green

Grant 13:41

Green olives.

Tammy 13:42

Oh, all right, open them up.

Charmaine 13:44

Marinated with lemon and oregano.

Tammy 13:46

Umm. yes, they're delicious. How do you feel about green olives? Do you guys like olives? You olive eaters?

Charmaine 13:51

You know, all of the time. (laughter)

Grant 13:56

Good one, Char.

Tammy 13:57

Good one Char.

Charmaine 13:59

These are potent.

Tammy 14:00

So potent, right?

Charmaine 14:01

So potent.

Tammy 14:03

I laid out a long table and I had bowls full of olives and I asked my kids to come up and eat them. Now, you can imagine how many kids were excited - not very many. They did not, they're like I'm not eating. Even adults were like, Nope, not gonna eat that olive. Now tell me, describe for me what that green olive tastes like.

Grant 14:22

Bitter. Very bitter.

Tammy 14:24

Ooh. Bitter is a good description. Very good.

Charmaine 14:27

Yeah. It's sour. And I'm

Tammy 14:30

Char, you almost choked on it.

Charmaine 14:31

Yeah, it was sour; bitter and sour.

Tammy 14:35

Good descriptions.

Grant 14:37

But the taste really last with ya for a while. It's kind of a, sticks in there. Yeah.

Tammy 14:42

Do you need some water?

Grant 14:43

Yeah.

Tammy 14:44

It's a strong, isn't it?

Charmaine 14:46

Um hmm.

Tammy 14:48

Thanks for being brave enough to try that.

Charmaine 14:50

Those are good. I'm gonna give those to Brian for lunch. (laughs)

Tammy 14:53

There you go. Now the reason I laid these is because I wanted the kids to know the type of garden is an olive garden; there were trees with these types of olives growing on them. And it was so significant because months later, we sang that song again, and I said to the kids, what kind of garden was it? Everyone yelled, Olive garden. And it's really important for us to understand the significance of it being an olive garden. So I sent a video to the both of you and I asked you to watch it, it's one of my favorite videos. We're going to have a link in the show notes so that you can click on this video. This video is a guide in Jerusalem who's taking us on a tour of this, of Gethsemane. And he's telling us something significant about an oil press. And so I asked you two to watch this video and tell me - what did you learn about Gethsemane and the oil press from this video?

Grant 14:53

Yeah, I mean, I thought it was a great video on how they harnessed the oil out of the olives, you know, and it shows the gathering on putting them in this kind of basin and this donkey pulling this big wheel around. It's crushing the olives and kind of the oil is draining and how much work it takes to get the oil out of it. And, you know, then at the end he kind of talks about it as Christ. But it's a great parallel for what is happening during this time of atoning, where Christ is kind of being crushed under the weight of our sins. But something kind of life-giving is coming out of that and, and how important the oil was for their society, and how life-giving it is. Even today it's a very, you know, essential thing for our health.

Charmaine 16:37

Yeah, and the fact that it, you know, Grant was saying, in that first like basin had to be crushed by a big stone. And that was just to like soften the hard outside shell of the of the olive. And then it made like this mash. And then they moved it to another spot where they pressed it with boulders and, well not, like a long beam and then like stones on top of it. And then it was pressed, and it had to be so much weight that the oil would finally seep out, right? And then it talks about how the first press of oil was the very best.

Tammy 17:12

So the first press was for the temple, it went straight to the temple where they used it in the tabernacle. Yeah. Second press was for food, life-sustaining. And then the third press was for soaps or candles that the people would use in their everyday life.

Tammy 17:28

Um-hm, right.

Tammy 17:28

Yeah. Thank you for watching that, and I wrote those answers down. It was crushed, pressed, and I like how you said Char, so much weight was required for it to be pressed. I want us all to be kind of thinking about this, as we discuss this idea of Gethsemane. In fact, I have something to show you. I have some oil from an a First press. And I want you to tell the listeners what this oil, what color is this oil?

Charmaine 17:52

Kind of looks red.

Tammy 17:53

Yeah, that's exactly right.

Charmaine 17:55

A little red tint. Yeah.

Tammy 17:56

Isn't that interesting that the first press of oil is red? That's the color that it is.

Grant 18:02

That's interesting.

Tammy 18:03

I know, right? So fascinating.

Grant 18:06

Like blood.

Tammy 18:07

Yes, that's exactly it. And then you go back to this idea of Gethsemane, where the Savior would be crushed, pressed, the weight that He would feel. In fact, there's a couple of verses that describe the feeling of the weight the Savior felt and I want us to look at these. Let's go to Matthew 26:37 & 38. And Grant, will you go to Mark 14:33 & 34. And we're going to look at how Matthew and Mark described the heaviness that the Savior felt when He walked into Gethsemane. So Char, go ahead and read for us Matthew 26:37 & 38.

Charmaine 18:53

"And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy. Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me."

Tammy 19:07

Char, look at verse 38. And tell me how sorrowful was He?

Charmaine 19:12

Yeah, "exceeding sorrowful." I'm sure there's not words enough to describe, right? So exceeding, the most, right?

Tammy 19:19

The most, in fact, so exceeding. Continue on in verse 38, that it made him feel what?

Charmaine 19:26

"even unto death."

Tammy 19:28

Yeah

Charmaine 19:29

So, He was right at the very most He could possibly handle of sorrow, right?

Tammy 19:35

Yeah. And this is just walking into Gethsemane. Nothing's happened yet.

Charmaine 19:39

Yeah.

Tammy 19:40

Grant, read for us Mark chapter 14:33 & 34.

Grant 19:44

"And He taketh with him Peter, and James and John, and began to be sore amazed, and to be very heavy; And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch."

Tammy 20:00

Now Grant, go back to verse 33. And I want you to look at the footnote for "sore amazed and very heavy." What are some other ways that this word, these two words are defined as in Greek?

Grant 20:12

It says "amazed, awestruck and astonished."

Tammy 20:16

And then footnote b.

Grant 20:18

And then b would be "depressed or dejected."

Tammy 20:22

Yeah

Grant 20:23

Very heavy, yeah.

Tammy 20:25

Very heavy. So, I want us to just help me understand or talk to me a little bit about this. Knowing that the Savior just walking into Gethsemane feels the weight, the sorrow, feeling dejected, feeling depressed. Knowing that Jesus felt all these feels, how does it, how do you perceive Him now, or what does it do for your relationship with Him?

Charmaine 20:49

I was thinking that maybe He didn't realize how difficult it would be. I mean, He probably couldn't fathom it until He was in it, right?

Tammy 21:00

Yeah.

Charmaine 21:01

And the the emotions that you described, they're just so real. So, so human, so relatable, so normal, right? They're emotions that I have, that I feel, and it makes me feel like, you know, He wasn't just, He was all-powerful, but He was also all-feeling. The all-powerful of Him didn't just take away the feeling of it. And so He felt all of it. And He was, you know, He was all in and He was very, very present with the feelings and with what was going on. And just makes me realize, you know, He's very present with me when I'm in those feelings and when I'm having that, those kind of moments.

Tammy 21:50

Wow, Char. I just wrote that in my scriptures. That was so awesome when you said He wasn't just all-powerful., He was all-feeling. I've never heard anyone describe the Savior like that. He WAS all-feeling. Wow. In fact, turn to Alma 7:11. And as we're turning there, Grant, I want you to tell me what you were gonna say.

Grant 22:10

Yeah, I was just gonna say that word, you know, "sore amazed" or we were talking about Him being awestruck. Those are kind of words, amazed, astonished, like we don't, I don't think we ever see or hear of Christ feeling that way before this moment. And it really kind of, well confirms what Char was saying that, you know, He was surprised by the amount of pain and weight that He was going through. And it makes Him very human, you know, it brings out His very human side. But I think it's easy to think of Christ as like this invincible superhero, that, yeah, you know, He had these extra powers that we don't have, and He could handle it. And it was like in a video game when you're like Mario, and you get the star and like, you can just take anything, run through any, you know, bad thing coming to you.

Grant 23:01

But He really did suffer and feel, you know, some pretty horrible things that we've all felt in our life, but and even worse, but how much, you know. He was amazing. And maybe He was more astonished than amazed. We don't know exactly what was going on and at what point, you know, Heavenly Father withdrew His presence from Christ. Because we know He had to kind of, that had to happen for Him. And in that moment, maybe when He was withdrawn and the weight started hitting Him, you know, it was like, Whoa, I've never felt this, and I feel very alone, and you know, and afraid and scared, and all these things that we would feel. And so it just, I think connects me more to Him, knowing that He felt so much of these human, real life feelings that we all go through.

Tammy 23:51

Yes

Charmaine 23:52

Yeah.

Tammy 23:54

I like how both of you said, both of you said how human it was, a real life experience it was and relatable is the word you used Char, how relatable now you feel towards the Savior, for Him. I think a lot of us have been awestruck or astonished even in our own lives. Like wow, I did not think that this would be that hard, or experiences we're going through, to know that even the Savior was awestruck. And He did know ultimately what was going to happen. But I'm so grateful you pointed that out Grant, that even though He knew it was going to happen, it still was shocking to what degree or the weight that He would feel. I'll have you turn to Alma 7:11. This is a very classic awesome Scripture Mastery scripture about the atonement that connects us to Him being all-feeling and relatable and human, what it does for us. So Alma 7:11. And Grant can you read that for us?

Grant 24:52

Yeah, it says: "And he shall go forth, suffering pains and afflictions and temptations of every kind; and this that the word might be fulfilled which saith he will take upon him the pains and the sicknesses of his people."

Tammy 25:06

Now, going back to this idea of Gethsemane. You described the olive as being bitter, sour, it lasted a while, the after taste, and it was strong. And Char, it even kind of choked you a little bit. And then I think about the Savior experiencing that He will take upon Him the pains and the sicknesses of His people. How bitter that must have been, and how sour and how strong. I think your words to describe Gethsemane were perfect. It couldn't have happened in any other garden. And the weight of that He felt, so.

Charmaine 25:41

And it wasn't just a moment, it lasted a long time.

Tammy 25:45

Right. In fact, it lasted longer than He even thought it would. And in the next segment, we're going to talk about what He did throughout that experience of it lasting. We'll do that next.

Segment 3 25:57

....

Tammy 26:26

Okay, let's turn to Mark 14:33. Mark 14:33 and we did already read this, but what we're going to do in verse 33 this time, is we're going to put lines underneath the names of the apostles who Jesus invited to have come with Him into the garden, the garden area, we should say. So I'll read that. "And he taketh with him, Peter and James and John." Okay, there they are. He took them, Peter, James, and John with Him. And then He gave these men some very specific instructions. And I sent these verses of scripture to you ahead of time, so I just want you guys to tell me, What did the Savior ask these three men to do? And we have the scriptures in our show notes, so you can go look them up and you can read about this in Mark, Matthew, and Luke. What did the Savior ask the men to do?

Charmaine 27:19

He asked them to tarry and to watch, specifically. He said, "Watch ye and pray." And then in Luke, He says, "Watch with me." So those are like the specific instructions He gave to them.

Tammy 27:35

Grant, did you have any others that stood out to you?

Grant 27:38

Well, just in one of the footnotes, I think it was Matthew 26 where it talks about, I think it was a footnote on 'watch'. It said another Greek way of saying that was 'stay awake' was the translation. So stay awake, you know, be alert. Kind of just be with me in this experience as much as you can, is what I was kind of taking away from that.

Tammy 28:04

Absolutely. And then in Luke 22:40 after He says this, He also instructs them. He says, "and be not tempted." "Pray that you enter not into temptation. So, watch - I like how you said that, Grant - stay awake, pray, and pray that you won't be tempted. All right. Now listen, it's well into like, past midnight, some scholars think. It's like 1:00 in the morning. Of course they're tired, they're exhausted, they have been with the Savior, so much has happened. They're going to fall asleep, 100%. And yet, here's the Savior saying, I want you to watch, stay awake, I want you to pray, and pray that you're not tempted. My question to you is, do you think these instructions were literal? Or is there maybe a deeper meaning for all of us with this instruction?

Charmaine 28:58

I think there's some of both.

Tammy 29:00

Talk to me about that.

Charmaine 29:02

I mean, I think, literally He was desiring their companionship in a way. But knowing He had to go and do it on His own, but wanting them to be present for it and wanting them to be there and to, you'd be alert, right?

Tammy 29:18

Yeah.

Charmaine 29:18

And so I do think He wanted them to, to stay and watch? Because He came back a few times and said, Why are you sleeping? You know, if it wasn't like a literal, Please stay awake, He wouldn't have said that so many times to them, right? So I think He literally was saying, Please stay awake. And we all know the feeling, at least I do, I can fall asleep anywhere. But we all know the feeling of like, well tell me if you've ever had a, you know, you're having a long conversation with your spouse late at night and one of you have hurt feelings and there's rough you know, tension. And next thing you know, I am out, I am asleep!

Tammy 29:35

Right!

Charmaine 30:02

Probably should sit up in my bed when we're having these conversations, right?

Tammy 30:07

Absolutely, yeah.

Charmaine 30:08

Then the next morning Brian's like, I was, you were mid-sentence Char, and you just went to sleep. So it's, it's really hard. I think this part of that, a lot of this in Gethsemane has to do with overcoming that, that natural man. The tendencies, the, you know, our bodies. That's why, you know, that's why we're here, is to overcome, have our spirits overcome, you know, the temptations and the things of the world and of our bodies. And for these apostles, they were tired. And He was like, Can you please, can you please stay awake? Can you please do this with me? Right?

Tammy 30:47

Yeah

Grant 30:48

And to piggyback off that, because when I first read these words, and each time I keep reading them, when it's been a while, just that phrase, like "pray that ye enter not into temptation". At first it just kind of seems funny like, like, what is He talking about here, you know? Like, what, are they going to sin? You know, like, what temptation is this? And I mean it seems like with the story, it's the temptation like of falling asleep, for them, right? That sounds to be what He's talking about, not like other types of sin that they're doing. But they're probably so tired. But just the way that it's worded is so applicable to us, you know, how important it is for us to be praying, to be staying awake, spiritually alert, doing all these things so that we don't fall into spiritual temptation and commit, you know, sins much greater than falling asleep. And I'm sure there, that there was a reason that it got translated that way. And I'm sure that's how, you know, the Savior wanted it to be to us, is 'enter not into temptation, pray,and be with me, stay next to Me' from from a spiritual standpoint, you know, for all you that aren't with me now here in the garden.

Tammy 32:06

Oh my gosh. Grant, I love how you just explained that and connected it to us today. Because it made me think of in 2 Nephi chapter 28 is where it gives us how Satan will tempt us and how he will get us in these days that we're living in. It gives all of his tactics. In fact, I have ,above 2 Nephi 28, Satan's tactics. But listen to one of his tactics. In verse 21 it says, "And others he will pacify and lull them away into carnal security." Like that's right there, getting them to sleep. He'll put a pacifier in our mouth. Boy, Grant, now it just gives so much more meaning to that idea of the - what you just taught us - to watch or stay awake. Do not be pacified or lulled away. And so these instructions to the apostles, while I agree Char, they were for them specifically in that moment, I also, like Grant, that they're for us today. Stay awake.

Charmaine 33:01

Yeah.

Tammy 33:01

Watch. Oh, gosh, you have to watch.

Charmaine 33:04

Yeah. And in one of the, one of the verses, I don't know which one He says "watch with me." So if, in that specifically He's not saying like, Come over here with me and, you know, be a part of this sacrifice. But He's telling them that, you know, for the future. Watch with me, like stay awake and be alert with what I'm doing. Do it with me, right? So how can we watch with Him in our day right now? You know, how can we be alert and awake and and watching what He's doing and being like that?

Tammy 33:35

Oh, wow. How can we? I mean, for me, it's reading my scriptures every day. That's that's the one way I know I'm gonna stay awake.

Charmaine 33:45

Yeah

Grant 33:46

Prayer's a big one for me. Praying a lot; I pray throughout the day and everything I'm doing. I try to pray you know, even if it's right before I start with surgery or you know. Of course you pray over meals, gathering my family arou,nd and trying to teach my kids how important it is to pray. And sometimes, you know, I even need to go to into the restroom at work and find some peace, and pray, and think about it, and read scriptures. And there's so many things that we can do to stay awake and connect with Christ, even during a busy workday or you know, a day or with our kids or whatever we're doing.

Charmaine 34:27

Yeah, it makes me think like the prayer is...so my kids all the time all day long, Mom watch, mom watch, mom watch mom watch, you know. And if I don't physically look at them, they don't think I'm not watching them. I really am not, right? I try to convince them that I'm watching when my back is turned to them, but they haven't, they haven't bought it yet. But I do feel like prayer and Scripture both are a physical way to put your eyes towards Christ, right? It's that focus of like, I'm going to actually watch. I'm going to actually think and focus on specifically, you know, bringing my mind into perspective.

Tammy 35:05

Oh, gosh, thank you to both of you. That was a great discussion about those instructions to the apostles because I think they're very much as applicable as they were to them at that moment, they are to us today. And we always talk about how when the Savior comes, it's going to be at the end of the 11th hour, right? So, proverbially speaking it is, we say that the time clock it's the 11th hour and the 59th minute, and Christ is coming at midnight, kind of a thing. And so it is dark, it is dark for all of us. And we feel that and we know that in the world we're in, there's also light and we are that light. And so by taking these instructions from the Savior, it's, they're winning instructions, absolutely. So the Savior, He comes out and He asked these people - and you said, Char - three times He asked them to watch, to stay awake, and to pray. And so in the next segment, we're going to discuss what was going on in between the three times that He came out to talk to the apostles. So we'll do that next.

Segment 4 36:00

.....

Tammy 36:14

Okay, so let's go to Matthew 26. Each time that the Savior asked these three men to stay awake, to watch, to pray that they wouldn't go into temptation, He was going in and out of the garden asking another question of his Father. So let's look at the question that He was asking His Father. In Matthew 26:39-44. Hit it Char.

Charmaine 36:36

Okay, the whole thing?

Tammy 36:38

Yeah, that would be great.

Charmaine 36:40

Okay.

Tammy 36:41

In fact, well actually let's do this: I want you to read, so we, and then we'll, we're going to number by each time so we can have that in our scriptures.

Charmaine 36:47

Okay

Tammy 36:48

So read verse 39.

Charmaine 36:49

"And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt."

Tammy 37:01

Let's put in number 1 by verse 39. And keep going, Char.

Charmaine 37:05

"And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour? Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak. He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O, my father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done."

Tammy 37:30

You put a number 2 next to verse 42. There's the second time He asked the question. Keep going Char.

Charmaine 37:36

"And he came and found them asleep again: for their eyes were heavy. And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words."

Tammy 37:44

And then put a number 3 next to that. We're going to add another element to this experience in this story. There's one word that Mark includes as he describes this for the Savior. Let's go to Mark 14:36. And we're gonna look at the word that Mark includes as the Savior goes in and out of Gethsemane. Mark 14:36. And Grant, will you read that for us when you get there.

Grant 38:14

And it says, "And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt."

Tammy 38:25

Highlight the word ABBA. This is a beautiful, beautiful word in Hebrew. The word ABBA is: it's a tender term of endearment by a beloved child. And it's the equivalent of saying daddy or papa. Rather than just Father, He is saying, Daddy. And I wanted to know, how does the use of this childlike term affect the way you're viewing the Savior in this moment?

Grant 38:51

I think the modern day equivalent, at least for me, is when I'm talking to my dad on the phone, for example. I always call him dad, I don't call him father. I don't think I've ever called him that. But, and I was just trying to think about this a little bit, you know, when I'm talking to my dad and I say, Dad, you know, I'm struggling with this or that or what do you think about this, dad? Or can you help me out with that? It's a very familiar term. It's a term that, you know, when I say it there's so much meaning between he and I, and it connects us our history, our past, how we've grown so close. And I think that word ABBA probably was that for Christ. He was like, you know, I know You so well, You know Me, and You know, I need Your connection. I need Your help right now.

Charmaine 39:52

Yeah. I love that.

Tammy 39:44

I'm trying not to cry. Especially when you said "I need Your help right now." Because I think yeah, like when you think about a little child saying daddy, or mama, mommy or daddy, it is usually like, and I like how you said Grant, it connects us our past, our history, like you know me so well, you know me so well. And I really need your help.

Charmaine 40:08

Yeah. Now it made me think when Grant was saying that I was like, huh. You know it makes me think of times and I've called my dad because I hadn't thought about that, you know. And I got in a, in a bad accident on the freeway once and called my dad and I said, Hey, Dad, you know, I got in an accident. And the response to that was, Are you okay? I'll be there in a minute. Not like, Are you kidding? Whose fault was it? You know.

Tammy 40:09

Yeah, or we're blaming you. What did you do?

Charmaine 40:39

Right. It's immediately the, Are you okay? I'll be there, you know? And it's, I love that way you guys both described it, that familiar, we know each other, and how much, you know, Heavenly Father probably wanted to be there the whole time with Him and just come to Him and say, Are you okay? But He couldn't.

Tammy 41:01

Oh Gosh. I love what you've both said. I love what both of you have shared. And you both have alluded to this throughout our discussion where you said, I'm sure the Father wanted to be there the whole time. And I have a quote from Elder Holland about this moment, because I believe the reason why He's saying I don't want to do this could be in part because He knew He had to do it alone. And how frightening that must have been for Him to be alone. And maybe that's why He called out to daddy, like just be with me during this moment because I can't handle this right now. That's scary for a little child. In fact, that is why little children want their parents is to help them through really hard moments, right? And experiences. But He had to do it on His own. He didn't want to. Three times He asked, Don't make me do this, but then in the end He said, "Nevertheless, not my will but thine." And here's Elder Holland's take on this moment. And Grant, can you read this for us.

Grant 42:00

"I am a father, inadequate to be sure, but I cannot comprehend the burden it must have been for God in His heaven to witness the deep suffering and Crucifixion of His Beloved Son in such a manner. His every impulse and instinct must have been to stop it, to send angels to intervene - but He did not intervene. He endured what He saw because it was the only way that a saving, vicarious payment could be made for the sins of all His other children from Adam and Eve to the end of the world. I'm eternally grateful for perfect Father and His perfect Son, neither of whom shrank from the bitter cup nor forsook the rest of us who are imperfect, who fall short and stumble, who too often miss the mark."

Tammy 42:45

I'd never considered before the cup was bitter for our Father. And

Charmaine 42:49

Yeah, me either.

Tammy 42:52

Oh, so bitter,

Charmaine 42:55

Like watching your kids go through hard things and letting them, letting them suffer and letting them learn and letting them do it. Right? I never considered, I don't often consider that aspect of Gethsemane.

Tammy 43:10

Well, and then going back to how you described again, I can't help but these answers with the olives now connecting it to: it was bitter, it was sour, this moment lasted awhile, but the the ramification and the results would last for eternity. And the taste that you had was a strong taste. And this moment was stronger than anything we could, we hope it lasts forever. We don't want that aftertaste to ever end because of the effects it would have for all of us. So good. Oh, gosh, thank you for what you shared. It's, it is deep. And you two are just the people to have us have this discussion. I asked you to just think about this, and I'm just curious. Are there any other thoughts you've had or anything that you've learned about the Savior in this moment as you prepared for today's discussion?

Grant 44:03

Well, I mean, I think the words that He says there are His, it's more of a request, I guess, not a question. But He says that He's basically expressing His desire in saying, you know, My desire is to not take of this bitter cup. Like I can, I'm feeling it, it's, it's tearing me apart and I'm scared. And My desire is to not do this. Nevertheless, you know, not, not what I will but what thou wilt. And those words have just been so helpful to me in my own life as I've tried to endure trials. I've had some pretty brutal trials, some physical pain that I've endured from health issues I've had.

Grant 44:46

And there's been many times where I kind of looked at these verses and where I say, you know, in my prayers to my Heavenly Father like, Hey, my desire is to not go through this. I want it to end right now. Please heal me, please take away this pain. This is just, I don't think I can handle it, you know. I hate this, I just feel so bad, I don't like how I feel. Nevertheless, you know, I finish up with, If You're, if You don't take away this pain and, you know, don't heal me today, then I have to realize that there's a reason You're not doing this. And that Your ways are higher than my ways as as Isaiah 58:55 says. And then I have to trust in Him that there's a reason He's making me endure this trial, and what is that reason? And how can I learn from this? And kind of trusting in God that even though this is hard, and I don't like what I'm going through, He's got a reason for me. And to have faith that it's His will is really what's best for me, even though what I think is best for me is to end this trial right now.

Tammy 45:55

Right.

Charmaine 45:57

Yeah

Tammy 45:58

So true. Go ahead Char.

Charmaine 46:00

I know. I pondered a lot about those same words this week about Him saying, you know, take this from Me. But if not, I will endure it, right. And then Him saying, "Thy will be done." I just thought a lot about that this week. But there's just a lot of trust in that, you know. I go about my life every day and any disagreement I'm in, any argument, anything that I'm feeling, you know, contention with, that's me wanting to do my will. And it's me wanting to have my way. And Jesus Christ always said, Thy will. Even in that pre-existence, you know, He said, I'll do the plan, and Thy will be done, you know. And then He came to earth and every step of the way He said, you know, it's Thy will be done. And no wonder He's the one that was able to suffer and atone for our sins, because He said that every time, you know.

Charmaine 46:00

And it's, it just made me really think like, How can I better, how can I better take that principle into my daily life of saying, Thy will be done in my relationships, in my, you know, in my trials, and giving it to God and saying, you know, I really want my way, you know. A lot of things all day long I just want my way, you know. I want my kids to do it my way; I want, you know, my relationship with my husband to be my way. I want everything, you know, and it's just this, that's this life is us learning to stop wanting that, to stop saying, I know what's best and I'm going to take charge, right? And so I just was really grateful to think and study and pray about this and figure out to start to figure out, like, how can I better, how can I better grasp this concept of saying Thy will, and giving up what I want, you know, on a daily basis for what God, what God knows is way better for me.

Tammy 48:03

Wow. Thank you.

Grant 48:07

Piggyback on that, so again, I would say, because Christ - I've thought about this so much - Christ could have just said, "Thy will be done", right. He could have not said, Hey, here's My desire. And I've always wondered, like, why didn't He put that in there, you know, like, and clearly He must have been trying to tell us that it's okay to say how you feel to Heavenly Father, you know. And He wants to know that, He clearly does. If Christ, our perfect example said that before, saying, "Thy will be done", He does want to know. He wants to know how we feel and what we're going through and what our desires are. And maybe even to make requests to say, hey, you know, I would like it to go this way, but if You don't want it to go that way and You have another path for me, I trust You and I will take Your hand and walk with You down that road.

Tammy 49:01

Yeah. Well, and Grant, going back to what you shared, who better to ask for all of those things than the one person who knows your past, who knows your history, and who knows you so well. If you believe that about Heavenly Father, then it's so much easier to say "Not my will but thine." I'm not saying it is easy to say that.,Ii's very hard. But, when you truly believe in a Father who just loves you so much, and knows you so well, and knows exactly what you need, then saying those words aren't quite as bitter.

Charmaine 49:36

Yeah

Tammy 49:36

Then you can trust that you do know the outcome will be for your benefit as it was in the garden. And it so will be for all of us in our lives. So thank you to both of you. Oh my gosh, I loved that discussion. Well, that's not the only thing that happened in the garden. So in the next segment, we're going to learn about one more thing that happened and some significance about this experience that Jesus had.

Segment 5 50:11

.....

Tammy 50:11

Let's turn to Luke chapter 22. Luke writes about two things that happened in the garden that no other gospel writer wrote about. So the first thing that he describes is in Luke 22:44. And Grant, will you read that for us.

Grant 50:26

"And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground."

Tammy 50:26

Okay, right there, underline this experience where it says that "His sweat was, as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground." Luke is the only person to write this. Why do you think that is? I'd love your thoughts on this, Grant.

Grant 50:51

Well, I like to think it's because he's the, was the physician and has the knowledge or maybe paid more attention to those physical biological things going on. So probably because he was a physician - it's interesting to know. I'll just throw in there that, you know, for those who don't - this is an actual condition, Hematidrosis, where there's bleeding from the capillaries that are kind of bursting, the capillaries in your skin, and can cause bleeding from your skin. And that's been documented that this happens in cases of extreme physical or emotional stress.

Tammy 51:28

Really?

Grant 51:30

Yeah. And so it's, it's a real thing. And I mean, wow, it must have kind of involuntarily happened there, you know, in His case where He was just enduring so much emotional, physical stress to the body.

Tammy 51:44

Wow. You know, Grant, I'm grateful. I mean, you are a doctor. So this probably, to you stands out in that you knew that this can actually really happen is super significant. I really appreciate what James E Talmage wrote about this moment. Char, can you read this quote for us, and after we get done reading it, I want to know what stands out to you in this writing from James E Talmage.

Charmaine 52:08

"Christ's agony in the garden is unfathomable by the finite mind, both as to the intensity and cause. He struggled and groaned under a burden such as no other being who has lived on earth might even conceive as possible. It was not physical pain, nor mental anguish alone, that caused Him to suffer such torture as to produce an extrusion of blood from every pore; but a spiritual agony of soul such as only God was capable of experiencing. No other man, however great his power at physical or mental endurance, could have suffered so; for his human organism would have succumbed, and syncope would have produced unconsciousness and welcome oblivion. In that hour of anguish Christ met and overcame all the horrors that Satan, 'the prince of this world' could inflict. The frightful struggle incident to the temptations immediately following the Lord's baptism was surpassed and overshadowed by the supreme contests with the powers of evil. In some manner, actual and terribly real, though to the man incomprehensible, the Savior took upon Himself the burden of the sins of mankind from Adam to the end of the world."

Charmaine 53:19

That's a big quote.

Tammy 53:21

It is a big quote with big words. You did say an interesting word - syncope. What does that mean, Grant?

Grant 53:29

Yeah, it means passing out or fainting. Yeah.

Tammy 53:31

Okay. So he says for a "human organism would have succumbed....and passed out and produced unconsciousness and welcome oblivion." I think that's interesting, like a welcome oblivion from the pain. There's one part that I hadn't really ever noticed before until today. That is, "He took upon Himself.......the sins of mankind from Adam to the end of the world." I mean, I've always known that, but to read it and hear it was so much more powerful for me. That's a lot of sins.

Grant 53:59

Yeah. Even future sins somehow, you know. That's, we don't comprehend that but, and we know it was infinite. I mean, so it's just a degree of suffering and pain is just unfathomable. Yeah, that word syncope stood out to me as well, because there's certain instances, you know. I experienced this a lot as an oral surgeon where I'm sedating people and very anxious people where we're going, and usually it's when we're putting the needle in the arm for the IV to start it. People get so much stress, and, you know, or some people are so anxious that it's almost a protective mechanism that their body has, just to like shut down everything and they'll pass out, you know, right as we're doing the needle or sometimes, you know, doing a numbing injection in your mouth of the thing. Those are the moments where people have syncope is where like climaxes in this moment of stress, and they pass out.

Grant 54:52

But how, you know, Christ didn't have that reaction. Probably because of His Godlike nature and His ability from his Heavenly Father to withstand such pain and not, you know, pass out or have these protective mechanisms for His body that just allowed Him to endure just so much incredible pain, you know. It just makes me so sad for him, but also grateful that He had that ability and used it. Probably there was a lot of, you know, voluntary will to not pass out and to stick with it.

Charmaine 55:24

Yeah, that line, that line that says, "In that hour of anguish, Christ met and overcame all the horrors that Satan, the prince of this world could inflict." So He met them, and He overcame them. He didn't succumb, He didn't give up. He didn't, you know, pass out and just let it happen to His body and not be a presence in it. He met them and overcame them. Right?

Tammy 55:48

Well, and I think, when James E Talmage was writing this, for me that line had to have been inspired. Because I don't, I wonder if James E Talmage, I don't think he could have possibly understood when he says "all the horrors of Satan," whether that would look like for the world we live in today was much different than the world James E Talmage lived in. That's heavy to say, "all the horrors that Satan" - yep, all of them, every single one of them. Anything you could imagine, He's going to overcome. Ahhh.

Charmaine 56:15

Yeah. Makes it even more personal when Christ asks His apostles to pray and enter not into temptation, you know. He's like, don't be tempted, you know. I'm gonna go suffer for all of this, don't add to it. You know, maybe it's me, it's not what He meant. But it's just so, you know, there's so much He was suffering for.

Tammy 56:40

But it's what it means to you. That's really profound, Char. Well, we've talked about how the Savior begged to not have to do this, because He didn't want to do it alone. And we read the quote about how the Father did have to leave and allow Him to suffer. But what I like is that Luke included one verse that none of the other writers included, and it's verse 43. He didn't have to do it solely alone. Char, we you please read Luke 22:43.

Charmaine 57:03

"And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him."

Tammy 57:09

There it is.

Charmaine 57:11

So glad Luke put that in.

Tammy 57:13

Tell me why.

Charmaine 57:14

And I don't know why anybody else didn't, because it seems like such an important part. But you know, He had, He was able to have strength from someone. It doesn't say anywhere, we don't know who the angel was, right?

Tammy 57:26

We don't. Nothing has ever been revealed about who it is. But we do know He did have someone there to help strengthen Him. And I wanted you to to think about this, because I asked you like who's your go to person when you need to have help? When you need like, why do we want to go to people when we need help? What is it about having people helping strengthen us?

Grant 57:45

Yeah. And I think I'll answer that. But with the verse, I think you know, Heavenly Father withdrew His presence. And it was almost like a tender mercy, you know, to give him an angel and say, Hey, here's what I can do for You is allow an angel to be by Your, someone who's not going to fall asleep to be with you. And it's, of course, I'm sure much watered down from and not nearly as good as God's presence. But He said, Here's what I can do and I will do what I can for You. And just how much He loved Christ, and He loves us, and He will do what He can for us and try to comfort us. I mean, for me in my life, it's more of a group of people, I feel like.

Grant 58:27

When I think of who are my angels, you know, that I rely on? Because when I'm weak and sad and depressed and hurting, I need someone who's not in that state to kind of pull me up and say, Hey, you know, it's gonna be okay. Give me a hug and say - it's usually my wife, you know - and because I suffer with a lot of lower back issues and have had surgeries and pain. And it's usually her that says, you know, we're gonna get through this, it's gonna be okay. And, you know, when you're in pain, I'll say this, your judgment is clouded. And it's hard for you to see a way of getting out of pain, especially when it's chronic pain. And I can only imagine the Savior enduring all this. You can kind of get into this mental space where it's like, this is never going to end. And somebody who's not in that pain is able to put their arms around you and say, This will end, you will be okay and we will get through this. And I'm so grateful for people like my wife, my parents, Charmaine, you know, people in my life that I can turn to to help me out and comfort me.

Charmaine 59:34

I love that, I totally agree, Grant. It is. It is a group of people, right? Because we can't do life alone. I think some of the hardest trials are because we are, what we're going through whatever we're going through alone. It just makes it that much harder. Right. And so maybe loneliness is one of the hardest trials as well. But I love that it's a group of people, you know. It's Brian, it's talking to my parents, it's my siblings. And always ultimately getting on my knees and, and praying and, you know, and how feeling the strengthening power of Jesus Christ in my life when I'm going through something. And so the fact that I can pray at any given moment in any given day, and I know that Christ will be there to strengthen me, is really powerful. And it's really amazing. And He didn't have that, you know. He asked, in this moment, He asked, you know, Please take this away and it wasn't. But what a blessing that an angel shows up next to Him, to strengthen Him.

Charmaine 1:00:40

That's such a sweet moment that, you know, also shows the human qualities of Him ,that He needed someone so desperately to just stand there. And like Grant said, Put your arm around you and say, you'll get through this. And I can't take it from you, you know. And I think of Grant a lot because we pray for Grant that his back will get better every day. And even my little five-year old, every single prayer she prays. But she says, We thank thee for Grant's back. And I thought I'm not really grateful for Grant's back, I wish it was better. We thank thee for Grant's back and I do. I, sometimes I wish I could take it from hin and that I could be the one that has that trial, for him. Even just if I could have it for one day, I would take it so he could have one day without it. But I know that angel standing next to the Savior couldn't take it, but could be a comfort. Maybe that's all that Christ, you know, that's what He could have. And that's, maybe it strengthened Him just enough, you know?

Tammy 1:01:42

Wow, when you said that it made me think of Grant, knowing that people are praying for you and for your back, these these people who are your angels. Have there been times where your back has been strengthened just enough, like Char said?

Grant 1:01:54

Oh, for sure. Yeah. And it's amazing how that kind of physical, even just a hug or a word of kindness or things like that come from other people can physically reduce the pain. Like I can feel it drop down a notch. So yeah, it's a blessing to have those angels in our life. And I was also gonna say, it's a blessing for us to be the angel standing by, you know, our loved one who is suffering. Because there's times where, you know, my wife is suffering with her own issues. And then I have to be her angel. And it's, we're usually lucky enough, and God blesses us that it's usually just one of us suffering at a time. We kind of rotete and then we can be each other's angels.

Tammy 1:02:36

Yeah

Grant 1:02:37

But I love being that for her when I can and hugging her and knowing that, you know, just how you did this for me, I can do that for you. And it's such a great thing to be able to do that for each other.

Charmaine 1:02:51

Yeah, strengthen each other and lift each other up and be an angel for each other. I love that.

Tammy 1:02:57

I do too. And I like how you said, Grant, and I wrote this in my scriptures next verse 43: We will get through this. And I wonder if that's what the angel said, We will get through this. And He did. And I wonder if that's what kind of sort of buoyed up the Savior to do what He did. And I'm so grateful. I'm so just grateful for a loving Father that's like, listen, here's what I have to do. But here's what I can do. I can't be with you, but I can send you someone and I like how you both connected it to we can be that someone's angel. And, and it's just any good thought. Any good thought you have - Doctrine and Covenants section 11:12 says, ".......put your trust in that Spirit which leadeth to do good." Anytime you have a thought that's a thought for Good is the Spirit saying, Hey, this person needs you. They need you as their angel. And so act on it. Can you imagine if this angel would have been like, Yeah, I'm too busy doing my laundry. I got stuff, you know, like,

Charmaine 1:03:55

I'm in a bad mood today. No thanks.

Tammy 1:03:57

Yeah, I'm not really, it's not my best day. And I just love that like, there it is the angel strengthening Him, strengthening Him the verse says. So thank you, Luke, wherever you are up there for including that verse. I have loved that. So thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and your experiences with us. That was incredible. So after this happens, in verse 45 it says, "And when he rose up from prayer, and was come to his disciples, then he found them sleeping...." So He rises up and He wakes them up. And as He wakes up the apostles, turn to Matthew 26:45, and here's what He said to them. Char, will you we read verse 45?

Charmaine 1:04:34

"Then cometh he to his disciples, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners."

Tammy 1:04:46

Thank you. We're going to talk about that word 'betrayed' in the next segment and how significant it is to this whole story.

Segment 6 1:05:10

.....

Tammy 1:05:10

I want you guys to define the word betrayal. But you can only use your feelings.

Grant 1:05:17

This is a good question. I think it's Yeah, cuz there's so many emotions and feelings that come. And if I picture myself being betrayed by a close friend, or even a family member, because certainly Judas was probably very much like a family member to Christ, I feel hurt, you know. I feel sometimes angry, alone, afraid, because a betrayal is like cutting that connection that you had. You thought that there was a connection there and they can cut it and you're like, oh, my gosh. What I once thought was the connection between us is not there or, and maybe you kind of doubt, was it ever there? And you feel very alone and scared and kind of hurt and sad.

Charmaine 1:06:02

Yeah, I think it's, the thing that came to my mind was that it feels like getting hit in the back by your doubles partner on their serve of tennis.

Tammy 1:06:15

Okay, I don't play tennis. Tell me about that.

Charmaine 1:06:17

And that's maybe happened to me before with Grant serving? (laughter)

Grant 1:06:23

Oh, sorry.

Charmaine 1:06:24

But the feeling is, it stings. And it's really unexpected. And it seems unnecessary. Like we're on the same team, that was not necessary in this game, right? It's so unexpected, you're ready for it to go over the net. And it just smacks you on the back, and it really stings. And it feels really personal. Because you're on the same team it feels really personal. Right? And you're like, Okay, I gotta shake that off. But I think it just stings really bad, right?

Tammy 1:06:56

Stings really bad. I mean, if I was teaching Seminary, I would have written all these words on the board, because when you can see them. I mean, I've written them on this piece of paper, but it makes the word betrayal so much bigger the way you guys described it. Hurt, angry, alone, afraid. I like how you said, Grant: cutting the connection between someone that you once trusted or thought was on your team. I appreciate that Char where it's you said it stings, it's unexpected, it's unnecessary. And it's personal because you are on the same team. And I thought we were close, and we were friends. So there's so much emotion wrapped up in this word betrayal. And we are going to discuss this word in John chapter 18,:4-5. Let's go to John and read about it. John 18. And Grant will you please read for us verses 4 & 5.

Grant 1:07:44

"Jesus, therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye? They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them."

Tammy 1:08:01

Thank you. Okay. Here we are going to talk about what scholars call "the betrayal." And what we're going to do is we're each going to take a different account of the betrayal. And we're going to share maybe something that's different from our record. So we're going to start. Grant, I want you to turn to Matthew chapter 26. And you're going to look at verses 47-56 okay. And we're just going to read the story, and then whatever you see that's different as we read this story, point it out. Char, I want you to go to Mark 14:43-52. And then I'm going to be in John 18:4-11. You can also turn to Luke 22:47-52. But no one's going to be doing that one because that account doesn't really differentiate that much from John. So we're going to just kind of combine those. All right, here we go. Grant, we're going to start with you. And all I want you to do is just read verses 47-56. And as he reads, Char, in your scriptures mark something that was different in your account of this same moment, and I'll do the same and then we're going to discuss what stood out to us. All right, hit it Grant.

Grant 1:09:09

"And while he yet spake, lo, Judas, one of the 12, came, and with him a great multitude with swords and staves, from the chief priests and elders of the people. Now he that betrayed him gave them a sign, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same as he: hold him fast. And forthwith he came to Jesus, and said, Hail, master; and kissed him. And Jesus said unto him, Friend, wherefore art thou come? Then came they, and laid hands on Jesus, and took him. And behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear. Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into the into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than 12 legions of angels? But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be? In that same hour said Jesus to the multitudes, Are ye come out as against a thief with swords and staves for to take me? I sat daily with you teaching in the temple, and ye laid no hold on me. But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him and fled."

Tammy 1:10:37

Thank you. All right, Char. What do you have that's different in your account?

Charmaine 1:10:41

Well, he said that he betrayed Him and gave him a sign and in Mark it says they gave him a token. And then "whomsoever ye kiss, the same is He" and in Mark it says, "He said, Take him and lead him away safely." So that's a little bit different. And then, in Grants, He called him friend. And it doesn't say that in Mark. I thought that was a really neat verse that Grant read out loud.

Charmaine 1:11:10

Especially in light of what Grant said, when he feels like he's cutting off the connection. Matthew is the only account where the Savior calls Judas His friend.

Charmaine 1:11:18

Yeah

Charmaine 1:11:19

What're you doin, friend, like there's a connection, right?

Charmaine 1:11:21

Yeah. He called him out for that.

Charmaine 1:11:24

Did yours tell us who cut the ear off?

Charmaine 1:11:26

No. It just said "one stood by with a sword and smote off the servants of the high priest's ear."

Charmaine 1:11:33

Okay. So I had John 18. Verse 10 tells us who cut the ear. In fact, turn there. Turn to John chapter 18. We're going to mark that verse in John 18:10. Oh, Char, I want you to actually go to Luke 22:50 & 51 so you can tell us about this moment. My Scripture tells us who cut the ear off. In John 18:10 it said, "And then Simon Peter having a sword drew it,and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus." So there's the only reference we have for the servant's name. His name was Malchus. And Char, Luke 22:50-51. Read that.

Charmaine 1:12:18

"And one of them smote off the servant of the high priest, and cut off his right ear. And Jesus answered and said, Suffer ye thus far. And he touched his ear, and healed him." So the only spot that says that he was healed by Jesus, right?

Tammy 1:12:32

Yes, yep, is in Luke 22. I'll tell you what was different for me also in John 18. In John 18:6, I'd never noticed this verse before until I was preparing for this episode, and it just stood out to me. And here's what it says. "As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground." So

Charmaine 1:12:54

So that stood out to me as we were reading too.

Tammy 1:12:56

Tell me why.

Charmaine 1:12:58

Because I was like, why would they fall back? Almost like they're scared. And they're falling down, you know. And I'm just, I'm imagining the state that Jesus might look in at this point, with with, you know, He's just been bleeding and suffering, and He probably looks terrible. And so

Tammy 1:13:15

Yeah

Charmaine 1:13:15

maybe they are like, This the Jesus that we've seen teaching at the temple? Who is this guy? you know? And so I don't know. It just, it totally stood out to me too, when he said they fell, they went backward and fell to the ground, almost like there was this presence about Him. Maybe because of what just, He just went through, that they all were like taken aback by, by His presence.

Tammy 1:13:38

Oh, yeah.

Charmaine 1:13:39

I don't know. What do you guys think?

Grant 1:13:42

I wondered how the original Hebrew was there with just that statement "I am he". Like if it had some remnant or connection to the statement, you know, from God, or Jehovah to Moses, where it was from the burning bush, you know, I am who I am, that type of a statement. And just how Jesus was, you know, they probably thought, Oh, He's gonna hide in this group of people. And we need someone to show us who He is. And he just came forth and said, I am He. Probably that alone was like, kind of like, He left them awestruck. Like this, who is this man that is so bold and brave and courageous? And maybe even the language kind of connects Him to God, you know. And it's kind of interesting.

Tammy 1:14:26

Yes, you know what, Grant. You are absolutely right. In everything I've studied, in verse 6, when He says unto them, I am, the HE is added by the translators. It's actually not He in the translatio. It just that, He just says to them, I am, which directly connects to how He announced Himself in the Old Testament. And, how cool is this? It's the exact wording He uses with the woman at the well the first time He announces his Messiahship. He will use this wording again at the end of His Messiahship on this earth. He says again, I am. And so from everything I've read it was the magnitude of those words that those men fully understood. And it it made them draw back and they fell to the ground because of the power of that, I am. And so you're right. That's exactly what it was. And I just thought, how incredible for them in that moment to know, truly, I am. And there's so much power in that when we think about how the Savior, I mean, there's, you know, I don't even know, I have so many thoughts.

Tammy 1:15:32

My mind is swirling, because He started His Messiahship with a woman saying, I am. He's here at the end of it, His ministry on earth using I am. And we've learned that in Hebrew, the translation of that I am, literally means "I will become who I will become." Like this is it.

Grant 1:15:53

Interesting.

Tammy 1:15:53

I came, I became who I was sent to become. That's basically what He's saying now, like, Here I am. And what I think is interesting, too, is verse 4, knowing all things that should come upon Him. Isn't that interesting? Like, He knows what's going to happen from this point on. He has all the power in the world to end it right there. He could have just said, We're done. We don't need, but He knows what's going to happen. And we don't have time to cover this today. We actually, next week we get to talk about what happens after this experience, and all the different places that He will go. But tell me then, after everything we've studied today, why didn't He stop it? What does this tell us about Jesus?

Charmaine 1:16:34

Kind of what you just said, that phrase, "I will become who I will become." He knew His purpose, He knew His work. And He knew what He was sent to earth to do from the pre-existence. And He was determined to do it no matter what. And I think that the, it's not about like, the what He did, but why. And that's why He kept doing it, you know. He did it for all of us. He knew He had to continue to suffer and He had to ultimately die because of us. For all of us to get back to Him. So He knew. It's like in verse 4, knowing all things that should come upon Him, He knew He was going to have to die. And so because He knew the path for Him, He was able to say in His mind, I'm not done yet. And I know it's been rough, but I'm not done yet. I have to keep going.

Tammy 1:17:29

Sorry, I'm just writing all these thoughts, because you said it's not about the what will be done, but the why it will be done. That's so good.

Grant 1:17:37

And then I would just say, more on this, we're you know, this betrayal-type setting and what we're reading here. Because I wonder why do, seems like all the Gospels have this part in there. Why was this part of the story, you know, why was it so important? Because it clearly is set up to be a very important part. And I think maybe Christ wanted us to kind of put ourselves in the position of Judas in the story and think are there times where you betrayed me, you know? Are there times where you are my friend, and then you, you know, are not and you sin, and you leave me? And it reminds me of, you referenced 2 Nephi 28, and we just read that. Coincidentally, last night with our kids, that was kind of the chapter we were on our scripture reading in the Book of Mormon.

Grant 1:18:31

And, you know, I point out to my kids, like, do you see how the whole chapter just details all of these ways that Satan will trap us and trick us, and how creative he is and how deceiving he is? And you guys will fall in these traps. And I will fall in these traps and these snares and we will betray the Savior, so to speak. But the most beautiful part of that whole chapter is at the very end of 28, where it says, despite all of these things, I am there and My hand is still stretched out for you. And I will always be there waiting for you as soon as You turn to me. You know, no matter how deep you're sinking in your quicksand, I'll be there with My hands just out to pull you out. All you have to do is have the will and desire and I'll be helping you. And so I think that's the message is like even though we do betray Christ, He still will be our Friend and will still be waiting for us.

Charmaine 1:19:25

Yeah, makes me think of Peter on the water and, and Jesus's arms outstretched. Like no matter what, you know, whether we're betraying Him or whether we're doubting ourselves. Or whether we don't know who we are like the woman at the well, you know, He's gonna be there, stretching forth His hand, saying, This is who I am, and this is what I have to offer to you. You want this, you know.

Tammy 1:19:45

Yeah. Oh, thank you, both of you. Because then it goes back to I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me and He will help us become who we were sent to become. That's the beautiful connection with I am. Like, who am I? Oh, I am, because of Him. I will become who I was sent to become. So, thank you both of you. What a, this was so awesome. Oh my gosh, I loved today's discussion.

Grant 1:20:12

Yeah, thank you.

Charmaine 1:20:12

It was so great.

Tammy 1:20:12

I know, at the beginning, for those of you listening, we kind of laughed because we were like, we're gonna have just kind of a light-hearted discussion. I mean, we knew this would be heavy today. And again, like I've always said, I didn't know this is what we'd be studying when I put your names down. And no doubt that Heavenly Father did know. He knew that it needed to be you two to have this discussion with. So thanks for coming so well prepared. You guys are the best.

Charmaine 1:20:33

Thank you, Tammy. This was really awesome.

Grant 1:20:34

Thanks for inviting us. Yeah, I loved it.

Tammy 1:20:37

Okay, so just take a minute, gather some of your thoughts. And what is your takeaway? Did anything strike you from our reading or our discussion or your preparation?

Charmaine 1:20:45

I think the part that stood out to me is the part about the angel coming to strengthen. And I just love that part that when Grant said, you know, we will get through this. And just a reminder that Christ is always here for us, we can get through anything with Him. And I love that imagery of an angel coming to strengthen Him, and He can be there for us at any moment. And we can also be angels to each other. And we can look around and see who are being angels to us and, and maybe be grateful for them in our life. And, and I just love that whole discussion about the angels strengthen each other.

Tammy 1:21:21

I did, too. Thank you, Char.

Grant 1:21:24

Yeah, I think that this kind of discussion and me rereading these verses, this really made Christ so much more human and real. And the fact that He keeps asking the disciples, you know, wait with Me, watch with Me, be next to Me. And He needs us, or maybe He doesn't need us, but He wants us to be with Him. He wants us to stay with Him in our life. And for our, in our case is probably more for our benefit than His, but the fact that in time of trial He wasn't afraid to say, Hey, I, you know, would like your guys's help. Be here, be awake. He, you know, clearly was suffering. And it was sad, but went through it for us, and how blessed we are to have an older brother who pushed through it and helped us and is always there, you know, saying, Hey, I understand. And I'm here for you.

Tammy 1:22:18

Wow, thank you, both of you. That I had two takeaways, one from each one of you. Grant, yours was when you said that the use of the word ABBA, it means it's a familiar term, that it connects the past with your history and that you know me so well, which is why you would use that name. And I just, when you said I need your help right now? Wow, that was powerful. The use of that word. So thank you. And then Char, oh my gosh, when you said He's not only all-powerful, he's all-feeling. And that, that connection? He really does know how we feel, and what we're experiencing and going through. And that's not a trite platitude. When we tell people that like, Oh, God knows how you feel, or Christ knows what you're going through. He really does. He is all-feeling, He felt it all in Gethsemane. And so thank you. Every part of your discussion, you guys, you just were wow.

Charmaine 1:23:11

Really great to come and talk about our Savior. And this really, most important part of our lives is that He suffered and died for us. It was really special, so thanks for letting us be on here.

Tammy 1:23:11

Yeah. Thank you for coming.

Grant 1:23:13

Thank you so much. What a great topic. I feel blessed to have been assigned this one because it's, it really is the crux of the whole, you know, prophesying. And everything boils down to this moment in our ability to continue progressing in life and finding joy is all about this moment. So pretty awesome.

Tammy 1:23:44

It was. Thank you. I love you both. You were great.

Charmaine 1:23:46

Thanks, Tammy.

Tammy 1:23:47

Thank you, friends,

Charmaine 1:23:48

All right. K, bye.

Tammy 1:23:49

See you later. Oh, wow. I feel like we all just need to take a big deep breath. Whoa. All right. Well, if you have not joined our Facebook or Instagram group, go do it. And just right now, share what you're learning. Share what you're thinking, share what you're feeling. That is my challenge. Let's just, in fact, even if you don't share it on our Instagram or Facebook, I want you to share it on your own private Instagram or Facebook. I want to flood social media, with our testimony of the Savior, and what you've learned about Gethsemane. Share your testimony, share your commitment, share your comments, everything. That'd be so cool, especially this week in our Come, Follow Me lesson.

Tammy 1:24:30

Now on a Saturday we will post a question from this specific episode and I'd love for you to comment on that and tell us what your thoughts are about our discussion. And you can get to both our Facebook and Instagram by going to the show notes for this episode at LDS living.com/sunday on Monday. And if you go there, we're going to have the links to all the references that we used today, as well as a transcript of this whole discussion, and a glue-in for this specific episode. So go check that out.

Tammy 1:24:53

The Sunday and Monday Study Group is a Deseret Bookshelf Plus original and it's brought to you by LDS Living. It's written and hosted by me, Tammy Uzelac Hall. And today our incredible study group participants were Grant Stuckie and Charmaine Howell. And you can find more information about my friends at LDS living.com/sunday on Monday. Our podcast is produced by Cole Wissinger and me. It is edited by Hailey Higham, and recorded and mixed by Mix At Six Studios, and our executive producer is Erin Hallstrom.

Tammy 1:25:19

Thanks for being here. We'll see you next week and please remember that God really does know you and you are His favorite.

Tammy 1:25:28

Go enjoy those olives now. Or throw 'em away, whatever you want. Hahaha.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai