23: “In Remembrance” (Matthew 26; Mark 14; John 13)

Tammy 0:01

I want you to think of someone who is very important to you. Now, why is this person important to you? and who isn't? Are you related? Is that a friend? And how do you treat this person? Is it different from the way that you treat others? This week as we study Matthew chapter 26, Mark 14, and John 13, we will discuss the idea of who is important to us and ultimately, who is important to Jesus and how the two go hand in hand.

Tammy 0:29

Welcome to the Sunday on Monday Study Group, a Deseret Bookshelf Plus original brought to you by LDS Living, where we take the Come, Follow Me lesson for the week, and we really dig into the scriptures together. I'm your host, Tammy Uzelac Hall. If you're new to our study group, we do want to make sure you know how to use this podcast. So follow the link in our description, and it will explain how you can best use this podcast to enhance your Come, Follow Me study. Just like my friend I forgot to put in a name, so we'll do that in rerecords. Okay, now. Now, here's another awesome thing about our study group. And each week, we're joined by two of my friends. So it's a little bit different each week. And I am so excited because today, oh you guys, I invited Allison Dayton and Ben Schilati. Hello.

Ben Schilaty 1:08

Hello

Tammy 1:09

WHAT?! Okay, this is like a dream come true for the three of us to be together on this podcast.

Ben Schilaty 1:16

Totally.

Tammy 1:17

How do you two know each other?

Allison 1:19

We know each other, well, everybody knows Ben. But I know that because I work with LGBTQ individuals and their families. And that's how I met Ben, is when he was doing his good work. Right?

Ben Schilaty 1:34

Allison and I kind of, Allison and I 'swim the same water', so we've run into each other a number of times. And then we started talking and hanging out and now plannin' all kinds of fun things together and have become dear friends.

Allison 1:45

Exactly. Very, very good friends. So

Tammy 1:48

Well what are you planning? cuz you said planning fun things together. So tell us what you're planning.

Ben Schilaty 1:53

Yeah. So Allison and I with a number of our friends are planning a big conference that will be in Utah in Provo on September 15th and 16th called Gather. And it's meant to be a Christ-centered group of support for LGBTQ Latter-day Saints, and those who love them. So we want family, friends, LGBTQ people to come in a Christ-centered space, and really build community with people that have similar experiences to them. A lot of people who are in this LGBTQ Latter-day Saint space feel like they're alone and isolated; they feel like they're just this one little fish in this whole ocean by themselves. We want people to know, No, you're not one fish, you're in a school of fish. And we're all in this together.

Allison 2:33

Yeah, totally. Come and be with us.

Tammy 2:36

Amen. Well, Allison, why? Why are you doing work with the LGBTQ community specifically?

Allison 2:42

Well, you know, I grew up with a gay brother. And his life was hard and super sad. And he actually ended his life six years ago, right before my son came out. And in that space of the past, and this present and future that I had, I just realized there's just a need for people to really be able to hold tight to the gospel of Jesus Christ, to hold tight to their children. And I just, I don't know, I think my parents just taught me a good way to do that. And I felt like I needed to share it. So here I am.

Tammy 3:16

And you do a beautiful job of that. And that's how we met

Allison 3:19

That IS how we met.

Tammy 3:20

I began following you on your Instagram page, which is "Lift and Love.org".

Allison 3:24

Yeah.

Tammy 3:24

And then I knew Ben, and then the three of us all made connection, we know each other, and we love each other. And it is just so fantastic. So I've wanted to have the two of you on together for a long time. And once again, I've always said this before: I go through, I write down the names, not even knowing what we're going to talk about. And then we get to this. And I even sent you guys a message - God is so good. I couldn't think of two better people to discuss these chapters. So are you ready to do this?

Ben Schilaty 3:49

Let's do it.

Allison 3:50

So excited.

Tammy 3:50

Okay, well listen. Before we jump into the scriptures, then, if you want to know more about my guests, I want you to go to our show notes where you can read their bio and find out their information. And you can also see and find links to Allison Dayton and her website as well BenSchilate's book which again, best book, I loved it. So you want to read his book, it's so good. And you can find all of that at LDS living.com/sunday on Monday.

Tammy 4:15

Here's what we need to know. So far, in the past couple of weeks, we have covered what is to be believed as the last Saturday through Tuesday of the Savior's life. So today, we are going to look at what happened on Wednesday and Thursday, the last two days before the Savior was crucified. So grab your scriptures, your scripture journals and something to mark them with and let's dig in. Okay, guys, I want you just to turn to Matthew chapter 26. And we're going to look at verses 1 & 2. Now the reason I want you to do this is I have a question. Do we treat everyone the same?

Allison 4:48

No.

Tammy 4:49

No, why not?

Allison 4:50

I don't know. Isn't that interesting? I don't and I wish that I did. But we just don't.

Tammy 4:57

What differentiates the way we treat people?

Ben Schilaty 5:00

Some people are, I think it's easier for us to treat people who are like us, cut more kindly. And also when we're in better moods ourselves, it's easier to be kind.

Ben Schilaty 5:09

Oh, yeah. Truth.

Tammy 5:12

That's so true.

Allison 5:14

Right to the point Ben.

Tammy 5:15

Oh, it is. Well, I want us to be thinking of this idea about how we treat people. Because in Matthew 26:1 & 2, the Savior actually predicts or prophesies how someone will treat Him. Alison, will you please read verses 1 & 2.

Allison 5:29

Will. "And it came to pass, when Jesus had finished all these sayings, he said unto his disciples, Ye know that after two days is the feast of the passover, and the Son of Man is betrayed to be crucified."

Tammy 5:45

Okay, there's a really uncomfortable word. Aside from crucified, what's the word in verse 2 that just makes you like, ugh?

Tammy 5:52

betrayed.

Tammy 5:53

Yeah. So let's see how that was done. We're just going to jump over to verse 14. And Allison, will you continue to read for us in verses 14-15.

Allison 6:03

"Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went unto the chief priests, And he said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver."

Tammy 6:17

We want to highlight "30 pieces of silver" in our scriptures. There's something significant about this. You can cross reference "30 pieces of silver" to a scripture in Exodus 21:32. And if you turn to Exodus 21:32, it will teach us that 30 pieces of silver was actually the compensation for a slave that had been killed. So that's how much money the Savior is going to be offered up by Judas. And in today's money, according to Andrew Skinner and Kelly Ogden - the books that I read - that's about $150 in our monetary system.

Ben Schilaty 6:54

That's not a lot of money.

Tammy 6:55

Yeah. Tell me about your thoughts.

Allison 6:57

It's so interesting that he covenanted to them, the Scripture says, for so little money. I mean, I think the whole experience with Judas is fascinating. What's happened just before that - the woman anointed Him and as Jesus said, to His burial, some of the disciples are upset because of the cost. You wonder, was Judas upset about the cost of the oil? And that kind of broke his faith in the Savior? I mean, we know He cared a lot about money and He was good at money. The oil was supposed to be like a year's worth of, you know, something of enough money that he made in an entire year.

Tammy 7:33

Yeah,

Allison 7:34

this Nard. Is that some, is that what happened there? Did he lose faith in the Lord and trade Him for so little money?

Tammy 7:41

I like how you juxtaposed those two, because it was Judas that questioned the amount of oil and how much it cost. And then look what he sold the Savior for? Oh, I'd never considered that before. Powerful,

Allison 7:53

painful

Tammy 7:54

Oh, painful indeed.

Ben Schilaty 7:56

You know, I wish we knew more what he was thinking about. You know we can, we can speculate and we can wonder, but I just, I just wish we had a clearer vision of, of why he made this choice. And I'm sure Judas would have a lot to tell us about why he made that decision, if he could, if he could share his thoughts. All we have is just a few verses here,

Tammy 8:14

Ben, I'm grateful that you pointed that out, because we don't know the whole story. And all we know is what's here in Matthew 26. And I want us to go to this story. We're going to continue on with it because they're at Passover, and they're sitting and they're eating. And we go to verse 21, in Matthew chapter 26, because the Savior will say a little bit more about this betrayal. So Ben, will you please read for us verses 21-22.

Ben Schilaty 8:39

Of course. "And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me. And they were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I?"

Tammy 8:51

Let's underline that, "Lord, is it I?" I do think it's interesting. Because if I had been there, I would have looked around, I wouldn't have said, "Lord, is it I?" would have been like, Oh, who is it? It's probably so and so. I think I would have pointed fingers at everybody else like, Oh, He's probably talking about so and so. Now you know a lot about me.

Ben Schilaty 9:08

Yeah, this, this reminds me of President Nelson's talk in Gneral Conference in April 2023, where he talked about contention, and being peacemakers. And it's like just the right moment of this, this talk, where I was thinking, Oh, I wish so and so would listen to this talk. He said something like, you might be thinking someone else would be listening to this talk. But, you know, we this is something for all of us. And that question of, you know, what's my role and any problems? I think it's really helpful instead of just blaming other people.

Tammy 9:35

Oh, absolutely. I really like what Elder Uchtdorf said about this statement, Lord, is it i? It's a really quick quote, and Ben will you read this for us.

Ben Schilaty 9:44

Lord, is it I and these simple words, Lord is I, lies the beginning of wisdom and a pathway to personal conversion and lasting change.

Tammy 9:53

Tell me why. Why would these four words be a pathway to change for us?

Ben Schilaty 9:58

Yeah, I think that is human nature for us to blame other people for our problems. And for us to say, Oh, you know, this or this, or this, or this happened, and that's why, that's why I did this thing. But if we ask the Lord, is it I, we're looking for the things that are in us that need to be changed, and the things that we can access the grace of God for us, so that we have can have the power to change ourselves. And so I think asking Lod is it I, you know, what do I need to do? What do I need to change? How can I be better, really opens the door for me to make that change instead of just blaming other people.

Tammy 10:27

Right. Beautifully stated. What about for you, Allison?

Allison 10:32

I think those are such hard words, right? Because it is, I mean, looking inward is so much harder, especially if you feel offended, or you just have, we can think of so many reasons to sort of excuse our ourselves, excuse our motives, all of the things. And just digging deep is hard. It's hard, and what you know, just saying, What have I done? And what can I learn? And how can I never do this again? It's hard work. And it's, it's, it's the work of disciples, for sure. But it's always hard. And it's, I don't know that, does it ever get easier?

Tammy 11:14

Well and going back to what Ben said about Judas, I wish we knew the whole story. And I think about people in my own life, if we knew the whole story, and then we asked Lord, is it i? Like maybe it's me that's causing the problem. Maybe... You know, that's really interesting. They all asked, Lord Is it I, is it I? And actually, Jesus tells them who it is. Turn with me to John 13:26, because it's such an intimate answer to their question, Allison, will you read that for us.

Ben Schilaty 11:40

John 13:26 "Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon."

Tammy 11:52

I want us to just highlight "whom I shall give a sop." The way that's translated is He will literally feed it, He will dip the bread, and then put it at the mouth of Judas Iscariot. That is so intimate to me. I don't feed anybody except my kids when they were little, but I've never fed an adult food like that. And so in this intimate moment, He does that - verse 27. "And after the Sop" then it says, "Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, go quickly." Now we're going to pause there in the story, because we're framing the framework for this Passover. Here's the Savior, everyone now knows who's going to betray Him. They're eating this meal together. And, and all of them ask that question, Lord, is it I? Now they all know who it is. And then we're gonna have some really intimate experiences that the 12 will have together before Judas leaves.

Tammy 12:42

And so in the next segment, we are going to find out what one of those moments was.

Segment 2 12:46

.....

Tammy 13:00

Here we go. The men are eating, the Savior took this opportunity to do something very specific. So turn back to Matthew chapter 26.

Allison 13:08

Can you imagine how uncomfortable that was for Judas to sit there after that calling out in front of everyone. A tender or a simple calling out, but wow, uncomfortable.

Tammy 13:20

I remember when I was teaching seminary, I had a student say to me, So was Judas there then for all the other stuff that happened? And that's been a heavy question. And I didn't know until I studied it this time. And then I realized, yes, Judas stayed. He ate with them. he didn't just flee. And a lot of scholars will kind of agree, disagree, but we're going to show you some scriptures today that allude to actually Judas was there for everything. And that, even again, I like how you framed that Allison thinking about what it must have been like to be Judas. And going back to what you said, Ben, I wish I knew everything. Okay, so here we are. We're in Matthew chapter 26 and we're going to read just verses 26-29. They're eating, they've partaken, and now the Savior says this. Ben, can you read for us 26 and 27.

Ben Schilaty 14:06

Of course. "And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye, all of it."

Tammy 14:22

What is the Savior instituting right here in these verses? Bracket off 26-29 and what should we have our listeners bracket off?

Ben Schilaty 14:29

This is the Sacramens..

Tammy 14:32

Yes, it is the Sacrament. Right here the Savior institutes the Sacrament. Okay, so, we're going to continue what the Savior taught about the Sacrament. Allison, will you read verses 28 & 29.

Allison 14:43

"For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of the fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."

Tammy 15:00

Excellent, thank you. I've been really looking forward to this aspect of our discussion, because one of the things that I asked you to do before we met was to really listen to the Sacrament prayers and follow along and read them as they were said. So yesterday was Sunday and I think we've had two Sundays before we met. And I'm just curious to know what your experience was like. What did you notice about the Sacrament? I mean, here's the Savior instituting it for these disciples, but we do it today. What did you notice as the prayers were said?

Ben Schilaty 15:29

When you asked us to do this Tammy, I was like, What am I going to find? You know, I, this is probably the Scripture I've heard the most. And something jumped out at me when the priests prayed that God would sanctify this bread, and would sanctify the water. And as I was listening I thought, you know, this is just tap water. And this is just bread, you know, regular, often stale bread. And yet this thing that's pretty, you know, everyday, pretty mundane, can become something that is sanctified and made holy. And as I thought about that, I thought, What can God make holy in my life? What can He sanctify? And how can I, how can He sanctify the things in my life to make them better and holy?

Ben Schilaty 16:11

And you know, we haven't gotten to this yet but we're going to talk about, you know, Peter denying the Savior. And I thought about, you know, how did those experiences where he denied the Savior end up being sanctified experiences that made him holy? And here we have Judas betraying Him, and yet that was turned into something that led to the crucifixion and the resurrection. And I really think that God can take anything in our life, any choice we've made, and make it something that can sanctify us and make us holy.

Tammy 16:41

Wow, that was powerful. I'm writing all of that down.

Ben Schilaty 16:46

Can I tell you quick personal story, please? So I have a mom, of course, and she has advanced Alzheimer's, and she doesn't know who I am, everything. She says, it doesn't make any sense, it's all just gibberish. And she lives with my brother and they asked me to take care of her for for five days while they were on vacation. And I was scared to death to go and take care of my mom. And my brother's like, it's not a big deal. It's just like taking care of a big baby. And I was like, I'v3e never taken care of a baby. Like, I have no children, I don't know what it's like to take care of a baby. And I was just terrified to do all these things. And, you know, to actually be her caregiver. And during those five days, this thing that had been somethin that had scared me so much that I didn't want to do became a really sacred and sanctified experience.

Ben Schilaty 17:28

And I remember, you know, loading up some things into the washing machine one day, and just feeling so grateful that I got this opportunity to care for my mom. It's interesting that God can really take any experience, even experiences that might seem hard or scary, or even transgressions that we've committed, and turn them into sanctifying things. And when I was in church yesterday in Sacrament Meeting and thinking about all this, the words of Eve came to my mind where Eve said, in Moses chapter five where she said, "Were it not for our transgression, we never should have had seed and never should have known the joy of our redemption." And you know, what a cool thing that God took their transgression, and sanctified it, and really was able to teach them about redemption. I just think that's so cool. That's what I got from the sacrament as I was thinking about it yesterday was that God can take anything in our lives and sanctify them.

Tammy 18:16

Wow. Thank you, Ben. I'm just imagining this idea of you putting laundry in to the washing machine.

Allison 18:22

It's so sweet.

Ben Schilaty 18:23

It is so sweet. And that how holy that and you'll remember that moment forever.

Tammy 18:29

Yeah.Wow, thank you, Ben. What a great way to look at the sacrament. What about you, Allison?

Allison 18:35

So I, I really wanted to do exactly what you said, Tammy, but we had stake conference yesterday. And no sacrament. I know. But the Sunday before you gave the assignment, I was in Washington, DC and my sister had gotten us tickets to the National Cathedral for Passover Sunday. And they did the Eucharist, the sacrament. And it was really interesting, because everybody drinks from the same cup. Which is a little shocking for us, especially in the post COVID days. But as I was there sitting, I thought, Wow, there's some symbolism there that we are missing. And it's written right here that He blessed the cup and then He passed it. And when those priests bless the sacrament - and think of those young guys doing this powerful thing - we essentially are breaking one loaf of bread, and one, in the Scriptures, glass of wine, right, and sharing it amongst the community. And it's the body of Christ.

Allison 19:40

And we're all partaking out of the same loaf and the same cup and the same body. And I know I wouldn't have ever even realized that without going to this Catholic service, that actually I don't think, I hadn't, I've only been to one other in my life. But it was beautiful, and this idea of the community of us all partaking together, all promising together and all being strengthened and sanctified together was really just so tender. And in this moment, and it was a great moment. My sister's not active in the church, but we shared that moment together in a way that was really beautiful.

Tammy 20:19

You know, I'm drawn to that idea that we're all partaking of the body of Christ, because Ben does a beautiful job of describing what that body of Christ looks like in his book. I want to know what thoughts you had when she said that, that we're all partaking of the body of Christ. And as all members together,

Ben Schilaty 20:36

Yeah, You know, I can't remember if I've mentioned this before on this podcast, but I really love Doctine and Covenants, section 46. And what's great about that section is there's a question that leads to it and a question was, Who can come to church? And the answer that's given to who kind of church is the Lord lists all these spiritual gifts, and then says, Everyone is given a spiritual gift to benefit the community, and these spiritual gifts are spread out among us. And so the body of Christ is different. Like there's reasons that we're not all ears or eyes or hands or feet or noses or, you know, all the different parts. Like we are meant to be different so that when we come together, we experience a wholeness. And, and so I'm just so grateful for the people in my life who have gifts and talents and attributes that I don't have that I can learn from. And hopefully, I can give my gifts and talents, you know, as an offering to the community, so that we can all grow and learn together as well. Like, that's the beauty of bringing people together and community.

Tammy 21:30

I the beauty of us doing it together. I missed that so much during COVID; I missed taking the sacrament. And it didn't mean as much to me as it did after COVID when we all united together and you realize that's why we're here: to take the sacrament together as the Body of Christ. And I like that, Ben. We are all, we need, we every, we need the ears, the eyes, the mouth, the nose, the arms, legs, we all need each other. And there's some power in that, so,

Allison 22:00

And in Doctrine and Covenants the verses that he's talking about, the Lord is very serious. I think He says four times "Do not cast out anyone." Make sure that, I mean He's saying like, everyone is important, everyone is needed. We all need to be here and, and for all the millions of different reasons and gifts and blessings that people can be in our lives. Everyone's needed.

Tammy 22:23

Well, and how fantastic then is verse 29. "But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom." Cross reference Doctrine and Covenants section 27. He's talking about us collectively as a people. There, we believe this, we believe there will be a big gigantic Sacrament meeting where we will all collectively as the body of Christ, partake of the Sacrament with him. THAT will be awesome.

Allison 22:53

Wow.

Tammy 22:54

And it just goes back full circle like yes, together the body of Christ, all of us will be together with Him doing the very thing He's there fo, or representing, or is symbolic of. I just love it.

Allison 23:06

So good. To be together. We're stronger together, right?

Tammy 23:10

Yes, we are meant to be together. I just love that about you, Allison, and it makes me super emotional. Because I just love that because I think, like, I have a sibling who's left the church. And I remember saying to her before she left, You can do more good in the church than out of it. Like we need your voice. We need your witness. We need your your experience" that she was going through, which is part of the LGBTQ community. And I've witnessed that with you, Alison. Like you're doing more good in than out. And I think that's why we need each other. You're, you are the eyes for those of us who can't see. And Ben has very much so been the mouthpiece for those of us who can't speak,

Allison 23:51

Right? That's the story of the Body of Christ, the very first part of it is that we need to know we belong.

Tammy 23:59

Yeah.

Allison 23:59

And the second part of the body, this, Paul's telling of the Body of Christ, or his analogy is that the first part is we we all belong. And the second part is we all need to make space for everyone else to belong. We need to gather people in. That's the body of Christ. That's the beauty of that idea.

Tammy 24:16

Yeah. And that He sanctifies the most mundane of us.

Allison 24:20

Right?

Tammy 24:21

The most simplest of bread, and the tappiest of tap water you can sanctify.

Ben Schilaty 24:26

Yeah. And in I Corinthians chapter 12 where Paul talks about the Body of Christ, I'm paraphrasing, but he says that those members of the body who receive, whoever receives less honor will now receive more honor. And people who have felt like they they don't belong or do in't fot in, at some point they'll receive their honor as their part in the Body as well.

Allison 24:45

That's going to be a great Sacrament meeting in heaven, right? And those He tells are the least are considered the best. A great moment.

Tammy 24:55

Thank you, both of you for that discussion on the Sacrament. Thank you.Okay, so the Sacrament was introduced. And then the Savior did something very unexpected that was even rejected by one. And we're going to learn about that in the next segment.

Segment 3 25:22

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Tammy 25:22

I want to go back to how we started. I'm just curious to know from both of you, who's your person that's really important to you?

Allison 25:29

My husband, my husband. We've been there, we've been together forever. And, you know, he's the guy. He's the one that grounds me. I always say he holds onto the kite string, lets me float around. He's calm, he never loses it. He lets me just rant and rave and be angry sometimes, and till I can get to calm down again. And he knows all of the things about me. I mean, he's for sure the guy.

Tammy 25:57

Good answer. What about you, Ben?

Ben Schilaty 25:59

I've got a lot of people in my life who I care about who just really are additive to my life, just make my life so much better. But when you asked that question, the person came to mind is my landlady Charlotte, and I'm a 39 year old single man, and she is 89 and a widow. And I've lived at her house for the last four and a half years, and we've just become the best friends. You know, we're 50, she's 50 years and 11 days older than me. And she's become one of my closest friends. We do the Come, Follow Me, read together every week. But the reason I wanted to answer her with this question is because I live in the basement in the main house, and I often come home after she's gone to bed. And so I come home to a dark house, but she always leaves the light on the stairwell for me. And, and you know, as someone who's single and who's lived alone quite a bit, it's so nice to come home and know that someone was thinking about me before I got home. I mean cared enough to leave my light on for me. So Charlotte's my person,

Tammy 26:52

I was so hoping you'd say her. When I wrote this question I was like, I hope Ben says Charlotte because I just, I love Charlotte for you. She's the greatest. Good answers. I want us to go into Scripture. Let's go into John 13:1, and we're gonna find out who Jesus's person is. This is a great scripture. Okay. John 13:1 And when we get there, Ben, will you read that for us, please.

Ben Schilaty 27:19

Yes, John 13:1. "Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved His own which were in the world, he loved them onto the end."

Tammy 27:34

We have to mark a couple of things in there. Okay. I want us to underline and mark "unto the end". Because what this actually translates as, is, "to the fullest degree", not unto the end. In Greek it translates "which were in the world, he loved them to the fullest degree." Now, circle "his own", because He says, "having loved his own which were in the world," "His own" is so powerful. We can cross reference this with John chapter one. So if we're going to stay in John, we're kist gonna go to John chapter 1 now and we're going to find out who "his own" are. And "his own" starts in verse 10. And it's just verses 10-12. Allison, can you read verses 10-12 for us,

Allison 28:18

"He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons" (And I wrote in "and daughters"), "even to them that believe on his name."

Tammy 28:39

Okay. Why'd you write "daughters"?

Allison 28:41

Because I want to be included. I always want, I always want women to be there.

Tammy 28:47

Exactly. And I want us to look at the end of verse 12. It actually defines who His own are. His own or even to them that what?

Allison 28:57

Believe in his name.

Tammy 28:58

Believe on his name. That, now go back now, go back to chapter 13:1. And where it says, "his own", put "believe on his name". And now I'm going to read it with our new definition. It says, "Now, before the feast of the Passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come, that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved those who believe on his name, which were in the world, he loved them to the fullest degree." So, who is important to Jesus?

Allison 29:33

All of us who love Him,

Tammy 29:34

Yes, all of us who love Him. That would be His answer, if I were to say to Him: Who's important to You? And He just would say, Everyone who loves Me. And I love how succinct and beautiful that answer is. So He has this moment with the apostles, and we're gonna see what verses 2-16 can teach us about the love that the Savior has and what He did for the apostles in the story and what He, I think is doing for us. We're going to discuss that. So go ahead and bracket off verses 2-16. And as you bracket off 2-16, we have a story. This is the story - and you can just label it - "The Savior washes the feet of the Twelve". In verse (John 13) 5 it says, "He poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded." Now, can we just stop there for a minute? Because let's talk about the feet that He's washing. What do we know about people's feet at Old Testament/New Testament times? Clean? Dirty? What?

Ben Schilaty 30:40

So dirty and dusty. It was a, well it still is a dusty place and shoes were less good back then.

Tammy 30:45

Yeah, they were wearing sandals.

Allison 30:48

And it's a hilly, rocky climb in and out of valleys. Like walking would wreck your feet, you know, the idea of Him just there touching and washing would be so refreshing. And like, well, I do love a good pedicure, so, you know, like, that's my thing. And that idea of like washing all that and, and tending to my broken feet.

Tammy 31:16

Okay, tell me about that, then. Because when we read this story, oftentimes, and even in my mind when I've read this story, I just imagined that they dipped their feet in the water and then dipped it out and wiped it off with the towel. Is washing someone's feet that easy?

Allison 31:30

No, Well, there's you gotta get in the toes and the all around and I'm imagining that dirt went up to the ankles and or,

Tammy 31:38

Yeah. Like, I wish there were more verses right here that said how many bowls of water He went through. Right?

Allison 31:45

Right. wow.

Tammy 31:46

And how many towels and how long it took. Because, listen, last night, this became very real for me. My daughter came in from running around. On Sunday nights, a lot of the neighbors come and sit in my front yard. We have chairs we put out and all the kids come and they play. It's so fun. It's my favorite part of Sunday. And then she came in from after playing and I looked at her feet and I was like, Oh, you cannot go to bed with those feet. Like you have GOT to wash. So she went and put her feet in my bathtub, washed her feet, got out. And I was like, No, there're still, you, No. Now you need a brush; you have to scrub your nails. Like I want you to really clean your feet, kid, not just a quick washing. And so she got in there and really like took the brush, scrubbed her toenails got like you said, Allison, in between the toes. I mean, it took some time to really clean her dirty feet. And she'd only been out for an hour.

Allison 31:50

Right?

Tammy 32:07

These people are walking all day long. They've been walking, preparing for the Passover. Here they are with the Savior and He's gonna wash their feet. Ah,

Allison 32:44

The dirtiest part for sure.

Tammy 32:45

Yes. So, you can imagine then how one of the apostles reacts to this experience. Let's go to verse 6. And we're going to read verses 6-9. And Ben, will you read those for us, please.

Ben Schilaty 32:57

Of course. "Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet? Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter. Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I washed thee not, thou hast no part with me. Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head."

Tammy 33:27

Tell me about what you're thinking with this experience in Peter.

Ben Schilaty 33:31

You know, this, this line where the Savior says, "What I do thou knowest not now, but thou shalt know hereafter." I think about all the things that the Savior does, you know, that our Heavenly Parents have orchestrated for us that make no sense to us, but that we will come to understand at future times. And I was definitely like this more when I was younger, I'm still like this now. But I want to know what the answer is, I want to have everything figured out, I want to have a plan laid out for my life. And that what I have learned as that my favorite things are happening in my life right now, like living with Charlotte, you know, writing this book, you know, planning conferences with Allison are things that 10 years ago I could have never imagined.

Ben Schilaty 34:17

And so I just have to trust that God is guiding me on a path that I don't quite understand. But at some future day I'll look back and like, Oh, I get it. Like that makes so much sense. And so what I try to do now is say, you know, I don't know why this is happening, but I'm going to trust. And I love that He said, you know, once he says this to Peter, Peter changes his mind pretty fast and says, 'Okay, yeah, wash my feet. Butnot just that, but give me more of this.' And so now I, now I think we, these things that happen in my life that don't make sense I think, God give me more. Whatever You want me to do, like, ask me to do it and I'll do it. And I trust that at some future day it'll make sense.

Tammy 34:54

Yes. Beautiful interpretation of those verses, Ben. That is fantastic. I feel the same way in my own life; things I didn't expect that came my way, I'm with you. Give me more, I want more of that not more of me. Very good. What are your thoughts, Allison?

Allison 35:09

Well, I think this is so fascinating, especially when we know what Peter's about to do, right? We know, he doesn't know. But he, like the earnestness, like he, like Ben says, he wants to be part of the Savior. And if the Savior is blessing him by washing his feet, then like, 'wash my head, wash my hands, like I want all of it.' And I love the devotion that Peter has here. And he shows it later, as well, in a really surprising way. But I think, like, that's how I feel, like with Ben, when, we know that we're doing the Lord's work. I know that when the Lord is blessing me to help, and it's not me. And it's those moments when I know that the Lord is saying, I need you to do this. And sometimes it is a hard hike up rocky hill, full of dirt and rocks and prickles, and I'm wearing sandals. Of course, of course I'd be wearing sandals. And there are those moments when the Lord's like, here, let me wash your feet and take care of you. I know that was a hard walk, and you did it. And then I feel better, and I feel revived. And I know for sure I'll have to walk it again. But I can do it with that.

Ben Schilaty 36:34

You know, Alison, as you were talking, the story that came to my mind was I was about to turn 31. I was living in Tucson, Arizona, and I felt this big prompting to come out publicly on my blog, which was really scary, because I'm the only Ben Schilaty on the internet. And that's like something you can't take back what you put out there. And I remember just like feeling this prompting to do this and just being like, God don't require this of me. Like, I don't want to do this. And then just feeling again and again, like no, this is the right thing to do. And my goodness, how that changed my life for the better and set me on a course that I never would have imagined. And now, you know, after that I, what else do You want me to do God? How else can I share my heart? You know, what else can I do to teach? And I think when we start to understand that we don't know the mind, the will of God but He will speak to us and guide us that we will say, Yeah, wherever You want to send me, I will go and I will do,

Allison 37:23

Yeah. And like, like Peter, I mean, Ben's impact in our community is just unbelievable.

Tammy 37:31

Yeah.

Allison 37:33

And, that's what the Lord can do with us and with things that we think are our weaknesses, maybe. We can realize what strengths they are.

Allison 37:42

And going back to Ben where it says, "what I do thou knowes not now, but thou shalt know hereafter." And now you, look at your life, Ben, you're working at BYU, and you are washing the feet of students who come to you asking, What do I do? Like how do I navigate these waters? How do I stay a member of the church when I have these feelings? I mean, I, you're, you are washing feet.

Ben Schilaty 38:05

Well, thank you for that, that is incredibly kind. And you know, I don't know if this was, if God or if Christ did this as an ordinance her. My guess is he was, and you know, we do this ordinance today in the temple. We have Washing and Anointings in the temple too. And, and I work in the Provo Temple on Thursday nights, and I'm one of the assistant Initiatory coordinators, so I'm like in the Initiatory, you know, doing these things, and then organizing this. And it's, it's really beautiful. And I remember the first time you know, I went through the initiatory ordinance I don't, I didn't know what happened, you know. It didn't make much sense to me. But now as I 've spent hours participating as a patron those ordinances and hours performing them the way that Christ would if He were there, it's something that has brought me so much peace and so much comfort. And so, and I just trust so much. You know, just this last week, a BYU student came to me who was just endowed and she was struggling, and she was like, all these things happen, it makes no sense to me, what do I do? And I wish that I had already read these verses, because I would have said to her, you know, it doesn't make sense now but it will. And these are, these are powerful things that are, that are preparing you for more.

Allison 39:24

Good. You know, like Ben, I was drawn just last year to start to ask my bishop if he would recommend me, I guess, to be a temple, an ordinance worker. And truly the Initiatory is just the most sacred place, and very intimate. Kind of like this experience right here, being with women, taking care of women, blessing them to be stronger, and to have their minds open, and God's, God's word in their hearts. I mean, just so amazing. It's a great place to be, especially if you're hurting. The initiatory is just a most amazing place.

Tammy 40:07

I'm grateful that both of you brought this up, the idea of going to the temple and connecting this all to those who believe on His name, we are His own. And again, to the fullest degree, He will love us and He washes our feet. He just does it for us time and time again. And I like how Allison you said, 'and the journey is dirty.' And there are experiences in our life that leave us with not just dirty feet, but mud in the toes, and you're going to need a brush and, and I you know, I think about my own life the time, for sure, there was a time in my life where my feet were the dirtiest. And I could not get them clean on my own. And the only way was for Jesus to just get down and say, 'Let me help you. And let me get the brush, it's going to take some time.' And you know, I just, that's what I love about our Savior is: those who believe on Him, He loves us so much, He'll clean our feet. And He definitely cleaned mine in that experience. He took away the pain, the shame, the hurt, everything that I was experiencing, by cleaning my feet and getting rid of all that yuck.

Tammy 41:10

Feet are the dirtiest part almost of our bodies. They just blaugh. And my daughter's, I will never forget my daughter's feet. And especially in light of this discussion, because Ben has cleaned some dirty feet. And all of us have had dirty feet, like we know this experience. And I am so grateful that He loves us to the fullest degree. But there's no dirt He will not clean. No toes He will not get in-between to get the yuck out. And this beautiful experience that He has with the apostles, their feet are cleaned. And it is , K, now we need to know: it's late into the night, like the sun has set. They finished their meal. And it is, some believe by all most accounts midnight, maybe. Really, really late. And there's one more thing that the men are going to do. And we're going to discover what that is in the next segment.

Segment 4 41:59

.....

Tammy 42:13

Okay, you two, I asked you to think about this question. I can't wait to hear your answer. What is your favorite hymn and why?

Allison 42:19

Oh, I went back to my tried and true, "Lord, I Will Follow Thee". So I have this playlist. When I'm messy and muddy and my feet hurt and I'm broken I have a playlist that I play. And my kids were making fun of me last night and they were singing part of it like, Oh, there's mom. But there's nothing that gets me, that takes me from angry to peaceful, or at least closer to peace, than music. And the very first song on my playlist is "Lord, I Will Follow Thee'. It's from "The Lower Lights", it's kind of a different version. And sometimes when we hear music or you know, even when we go to a different Sacrament Meeting or a church thing, we hear things differently. And that one is just so powerful. And it starts my playlist. Like, Lord, you know, I want to learn to love Thee. What an interesting thing to say. Because don't we all just say, Oh, we I love God. But really, it's a learning. It's a learning about him learning about what he needs from us learning how to do the things that He asks us to do. Learning, Lord is it I? all of the things.

Allison 43:27

So it starts with this "May I learn to love thee, walk the path that thou has shown. Pause to help and lift another, finding strength beyond my own." And then repeat "Savior, may I learn to love thee - Lord, I will follow thee." And this sort of gets my heart in the right place. Like I will do the things You ask me to do, even if they're hard. And it's, I think there's been so many moments, when I've just been so broken and needed to remember, like, I'm I'm trying to learn to love the Lord. I'm trying to learn to know Him and walk His path. And then the last line: "Savior, may I love my brother" when we have the two commandments, right? Learn to love the Lord, and that way I learn to love my brother, even if it takes strength. And I need the Lord as a beacon sometimes to love my brother or my sister. Like, I'll learn to do that through the Lord. And it just, it's this beginning of this playlist that kind of sets me in the right tone. Like okay, I'm, I'm hurt and I'm broken and I'm mad at people or someone or something and I'm going to, I'm going to turn back to You, Lord. I'm going to, I'll do what You ask me to do.

Tammy 44:39

Great song and beautiful explanation. I put you, I put that in my scriptures. "Lord, I would follow thee, Allison Dayton."

Allison 44:46

It saves me.

Tammy 44:48

Ben, what's yours?

Ben Schilaty 44:50

I've had, so there are so many wonderful hymns that I very much love, but my very favorite hymn is "Because I Have Been Given Much". And the reason is because it's true. I have been given so much and there are a number things I love about this hymn. I love that it comes from the Protestant tradition, that there are Christians all over the world, that there are Latter-day Saints are also singing these same words, I really love that. But I just love that, you know, it acknowledges that God has given us so much. And because of all things He's given us, you know, we'll share our glowing fire, our loaf of bread, you know, our shelter, everything that the Lord has given us is ours to share with those around us. And this really became real to me when I was 24 years old. I had just graduated from BYU for the first time. And I got a, I got a summer job in Mexico. And I was working for this Canadian company there.

Ben Schilaty 45:39

And I lived with the office manager, who was a was a retired American woman. And I asked her how I could help pay for - she told me not to buy food, that I was to eat her food, and I said, Well, how can I help you pay for this? Like, what do you want me to pay for rent? And she said, "Ben, someday you'll get to have someone live with you for free. That's how you can pay me back." And you know, I've had that opportunity. I've had opportunities to open up my home and my food to other people, and I try and pay it forward. And there's this really great book I read not too long ago called "Braiding Sweetgrass". It's written by a biologist who's also a Native American. And she shares the, in this book she talks about this Native American wisdom that she, that she links to her scientific knowledge. And one thing she talks about this practice where she thinks of where her food has come from, and you know how it got to her.

Ben Schilaty 46:29

And so after reading this chapter about this, I sat down to bless my food. And you know, blessing the food could become a pretty mundane thing. And I after reading this I said this prayer, and I said, "Heavenly Father, thank You for the plants and animals that gave their lives so that I could eat right now." And as I said that, I just like felt the Holy Ghost like, like fill me as I felt sincere gratitude for all the things that had died so that I could live. And also the people who prepared the food and made it possible so that I could eat. And so what this does for me is it reminds me that I need to be willing to give all my things, you know, my time, my talents, everything to bless other people, and also to be aware of the ways that other people and other creations of God are giving of their lives, you know, their time, their talents, so that I can live.

Ben Schilaty 47:19

And you know, I had this moment where I was sitting in Sacrament Meeting, listening to a talk, that I was getting, was a little unengaging, if you will. And then it occurred to me that the speaker had given her very best, you know. She had given her time, she had studied, she had prepared and was doing something that was probably scary for her, to give me a gift, and I should receive that gift. And so that's what, that's what that means to me. Yeah, we're giving the gifts I have and receiving gifts from others.

Tammy 47:49

Oh, my gosh. Both of you did an excellent job answering that question. You know, if anyone's bored on Sunday because someone's giving a talk that they think - I love how you said that, Ben because we've all thought that before - to appreciate what they're saying. And then also do this: grab your handbook and go in the front and just read what's written before you start to sing. There is some incredible instruction given to us. I love this line in there at the beginning of the handbook it says, "Some of the greatest sermons are preached by singing the hymns." And I think we've just heard two of the greatest sermons by just saying what your favorite hymn was j,ust the title gave us a great sermon. And here's why hymns are so important and why they are important to the Savior. Turn to Matthew 26:30. Let's read what they did after the Savior gave the sacrament, cleaned the feet. I just think this verse is so great. Allison read verse 30 for us.

Allison 48:44

"And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the Mount of Olives."

Tammy 48:49

Okay, I want you just to write next to the side of that "when they had sung a hymn", use this cross reference: Psalms 113-118. These, psalms in general was the ancient hymnbook for the saints, or the believers at this time. But Psalms 113-118 were specifically the psalms that were sung at Passover. So many scholars believe that these chapters are what they may have sung that night as they finished up their Passover celebration. And I think hymns are so powerful. We have this really, again, another great little message at the beginning of your hymnbook. Let's read what it says about hymns. And Ben, will you read this for us, please.

Ben Schilaty 49:32

Of course. And Tammy, I'm so glad you shared that because I was just thinking, I wonder what they sang. I wonder what they just sang. So, and you answered the question that was in my head.

Tammy 49:40

Isn't not so fun? I wondered, too, as I think of all the hymns, and I'm like, I wonder if they sang, maybe they sang "Because I Have Been Given Much", but now we know what they really did sing. So go read those, read those Psalms this Sunday. That's a great thing to study are those Psalms. So here's again what the hymnbook has to say about hymns. Go ahead, Ben.

Ben Schilaty 49:59

Okay. "Brothers and sisters, let us use the hymns to invite the Spirit of the Lord into our congregationS, our homes, and our personal lives. Let us memorize and ponder them, recite and sing them, and partake of their spiritual nourishment. Know that the song of the righteous is a prayer unto our Father in Heaven, "and it shall be answered with a blessing upon [your] heads."

Tammy 50:20

Okay, so we're gonna give a challenge to everybody this week. Our challenge is to pick a hymn, and to memorize it this week. listen to it, sing it, put it up somewhere on your bathroom mirror. Whatever it is, play it up, put it on you playlist. In fact, create a playlist of hymns like Allison has. I think that is awesome. And our challenge, and we're going to ask you later this week on Saturday, what hymn you chose, and maybe what you've done to memorize that. Because I just think, I love hymns. And I didn't realize how much I loved hymns until my mission. Before my mission I just ssang because I was supposed to. Then I had a companion who made us sing at every door we went to, which I thought at the beginning, I'm like, She's crazy. Like, I'm not doing that. But it turns out, we sang really well together.

Tammy 50:20

And I'm telling you right now, there wasn't a door that didn't feel the spirit after we'd sing. And even if they'd say, 'No, you can't come in', she would say, Well, can we just sing you a song? And everybody said yes. So we would just sing. We were the Singing Sisters. Is that so silly? But I love sister Suzette Gee, because after she taught me to do that, I did that with every one of my companions. I'm like, Well, we're gonna sing, and sing we did. So, powerful stuff. So good luck this week, sing a hymn, and think about the Savior sang. And this Sunday at church, turn to Psalms 113-118 and read what the Savior sang with His apostles. So, that is so fun. I love love, love that. Okay, so here's what we're gonna do. In the next segment, then, we're going to read something else that the Savior taught the apostles as they were leaving to go to the Mount of Olives. We're gonna do that next.

Segment 5 51:52

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Tammy 52:07

Everyone turn to John 13:34 & 35, and tell me if you can guess which hymn these two verses talk about? So John 13:34 & 35, and I want you just to scan your eyes over it and then yell out what hymn you think it is.

Allison 52:24

"Love One Another"?

Tammy 52:26

Yes, there it is. "Love One Another". Allison, read those two verses for us.

Allison 52:31

I have to tell you my claim to fame first.

Tammy 52:33

Please!

Allison 52:34

I was a little girl, I used to play the violin. And I got to play "Love One Another" for President Kimball. I don't know, I must have been like, oh, I don't know, 9 or 10 or 11. So it was like maybe 1980-ish. But I got to play for him down at Pioneer Theatre. I don't even remember why. In fact, I've tried to find someone else that was there. But it was just like, you know, my tiny little violin and seeing President Kimball was really a big moment for me and this songs always, like I said, there's so many great songs, but this one's dear, very dear to me.

Tammy 53:11

Oh, I can see why.

Allison 53:13

You know, I still sometimes pick up a violin. I quit in my teenage years but I pick up a violin, i can still play this one because I love it so much. Yes, okay, I will read.

Tammy 53:25

That's a precious story.

Allison 53:27

I know. I love, I love the words, I love everything in this. "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. "

Tammy 53:44

Here's my not claim to fame. Verse 35, "By this shall all men know". I used to think it was one word: by this Shallmeno. What's a shallmeno? I raised my hand in Primary and asked the lady what a Shallmeno was. She's like, I'm sorry, What? When I go in the song, by this all shallman, 'by this shallmeno, all. Oh my gosh, yeah. So and there are several other people I know who know. You know what I'm talking about. You all wondered if a shallmeno was one word. So here it is, finding it. "By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples." But there's a couple of things that we want to talk about with these two verses. Okay. He says, "A new commandment I give unto you."

Tammy 53:45

Now, this is not really new, because they have been practicing this since the law of Moses. Cross reference those two verses with Leviticus 19:18. This is part of the law of Moses, to love your neighbor as yourself. And so for Him, I think it's really interesting, because He says, Wait a minute. A new commandment I give unto you. Bracket off the word [new] or put a square around it, that's what I've done. I put a square around this because He is teaching them how to love in a new way. In a way that's never been done before. Ben, you're shaking your head. Do you know why? I want you to teach us.

Ben Schilaty 55:01

Well, what I was thinking was that He's teaching them to love the way that He has loved them. So 'look at all the things that I have done, like all the ways I have loved. Now go love the way that you've seen me love.'

Tammy 55:13

Yes. Now Ben, take it with me a step further. Because what do they all know what's about to happen? They're walking to the Mount of Olives. He's going to go through the experience in Gethsemane, on the cross. He's been prophesying His death. So now He says a new commandment. What level is He talking about here?

Ben Schilaty 55:33

It sounds like He's saying, you know, 'give all of yourselves. Love with your whole life, your whole hearts those people around you.

Tammy 55:41

Yeah.

Tammy 55:42

Whoa!

Tammy 55:42

That's exactly it.

Allison 55:44

Yeah. I never thought of it that way of Him walking out there.

Tammy 55:49

It's a whole new level of love for them. Because for them to hear that they'd be like, 'Yeah, we know we're supposed to love each other.' In fact, here's proof that that's the type of love He's talking about. Look back in verse 34 and circle the word 'love' if you have a red pen, the two in verse 34. It says love twice. He says "that ye love one another, as I have loved you." Oh, it's three times, "that ye also love one another. That word LOVE in the Greek translation is the word AGAPE. Now there are different levels of love in Greek. Agape is Christ-like Godly love. It's the love that the Father feels for us. It's the love that the Savior feels for us, that He will give His life for us. Now, you can cross reference this to the story in John. When the Savior is resurrected He comes back to the apostles and He says to Peter, "Lovest thou me?" Remember Peter says, Yeah, of course I love You. And then the Savior says, "Feed my sheep." And He does it again, three times the Savior says, Peter, do you love me? And Peter says, "Thou knowest I love thee."

Tammy 56:54

When the Savior asks, "Peter, do you love Me?" He's saying, Do you agape me? Do you love me in the way that I love you? But Peter answers, "Yea, Lord; thou knowest I love thee." That love, he's not saying agape. He's saying, I philio you, and philio is just a love between friends, just a nice friendship love, not the type that you'd give your life for. That's why He asked three times. He's like, No, I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying, Peter. Do you love me the way that I love you, the way that I told you to love everybody, back in John 13:34 & 35. So it is a new commandment because we are being asked to love. Now, going back to this idea of who do you love? Who's really important to you? Do you agape them? Or do you just philio them? What's your answer?

Allison 57:45

You know, a couple years ago, I was meeting with some women and we were reading the Scriptures with an intent what we wanted to learn and mine was to learn about the heart. And I think in scriptures, I think they're like 1654 references to the heart. Soft heart, hard heart, you know. None of them are about the heart that beats inside your chest, right? The spiritual heart. And I think of this. So right as I was doing this study I was Relief Society President and when I began the first, when I was called to be Relief Society President, every woman that I would see in our ward, actually anybody, I would see them like, with this, it was, I don't even know how to explain it other than a God-like love. Like I could see their pain on them. I could see their happiness, their insecurities. And it only lasted for a couple of weeks. And I, like I miss it still, I wish I could keep that with me always. But this idea of like, I loved them so much.

Allison 58:52

And I am so grateful for that, those just two weeks where the Lord's like, This is how I see people. This is what I see. That kind of love. And just, it's changed the way I read the scriptures, and I do a little heart every time I read Love or Heart or anything, because it's just all throughout the scriptures. All of them. It's all about love, it's all about loving people agape loving.

Tammy 59:16

Yes

Allison 59:19

Like real love, like the way the Savior loves us.

Tammy 59:23

A God-like love. What about you Ben. Do you agape Charlotte?

Ben Schilaty 59:29

I hope so. Sometimes I get annoyed with her, but,

Ben Schilaty 59:35

and I think that's okay.

Ben Schilaty 59:36

and vice versa, but definitely yeah. I love her very much. I would definitely agape her because I just want the best for her and I'm willing to do almost anything to help her out. The story that's come to mind as we've been talking is a story I share in my book about my parents. And before I was born, I was a really tough pregnancy and it seemed like my mom might not survive the pregnancy, and then my dad would be left alone. And I didn't want to, I don't need to go into all the details, but my parents were literally willing to give their lives so I could even have a chance of being born. And you know, luckily everything worked out just fine. But it's amazing to see the kind of love when someone is literally willing to give anything for you and your life and your well-being, and that has happened to me in my life. And there have been a few times where I've felt that love for other people. And it's a beautiful thing.

Tammy 1:00:31

Well, Ben, I just have to have you read this quote by Elder Neal A Maxwell because it includes a scripture that I know you love. And so it has to do with his description of the need for this type of love in the world. Because I went back and remember we started where we were like, do we love everyone the same? We're like, No. There are things that change the way we love, our ability to agape versus philio. There's also EROS. Eros is a me-oriented feeling. It's a passionate love. I thought that was interesting. Eros is me, philleo is we, but Agape is others, like how do we love others, like Christ. And so here's what Elder Maxwell has to teach us about this type of love.

Ben Schilaty 1:01:10

He says, "Has not the Lord with equal truth and relevance told us concerning the resources of this planet, "For the earth is full and there is enough and to spare." Should not this reality sober us in terms of what might be achieved as regards poverty? Clearly, it is the attribute of love, not other resources that is in short supply, a scarcity that inevitably means misery."

Tammy 1:01:35

Now talk to me about the power of that quote.

Ben Schilaty 1:01:39

Yeah, that is so beautiful, that love is not a finite resource. Love is infinite, especially with the love of God in it. We can all grow in our capacity to love. As we love other people, you know, that is going to lead us to do a lot of good things. And, you know, I think like Elder Maxwell's saying here, if we have a fullness of love as we, as we try not to, as we try to have more love, we're going to share the resources that we have with other people so that no one will be wanting, no one will be lacking. And that's what Zion is. It's a people of one heart, and one mind, and there was no poor among them. And I think that happened because people loved. And, you know, one of the ways I try and show the love that I have is by trying to see others' hearts and minds and trying to understand things from their perspective, you know, jump into their skin and walk around in their forbids and just see things from their perspective. And that has really broadened my perspective and helped me to love even more.

Tammy 1:02:34

Yeah. Is it even possible, let me me ask you this, Ben, is it possible to love others and not love Christ? Do you think the two are mutually exclusive?

Ben Schilaty 1:02:43

You know, I don't think so. You know, I think as as we love other people we'll come to love the Savior more. And there's this really beautiful few verses in 2 Peter chapter 1 where Peter lists nine Christ-like attributes. And then he says, "If all these things be in you, and abound, you shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ." And Peter, they're in 2 Peter chapter one is saying, as you develop Christ- like attributes, you come to know Him and understand Him. So as we exercise his Christ-like attributes such as charity, I think that's really how we come to know the Savior even better.

Tammy 1:03:17

Yeah. I wish you guys listening can see the video that we have, because we're on a zoom, and we don't put the video up. But I have loved watching Alison, like as she has sat back. Because I just see the wheels turning like, Alison, you have so many thoughts, and I want to know what you're thinking.

Allison 1:03:32

Oh, I just, I think that's so true. And I think there are many in the world that don't know Jesus Christ, right?And I just was thinking how there are many in the world that don't know who Jesus Christ is, but do love deeply one another. And when they meet Him, they'll know Him immediately. Just know exactly who He is. You know, for work years ago, I got to travel to Senegal, which is in Africa and it, I got to meet with these great people and live in their village. And one of these guys who was driving us around he'd get this smile that cracked his face wide open, beautiful. And I said to him, do you smile all the time? And he said, Oh, you Americans, you never smile. You have way too much. You have so much and you never smile.

Allison 1:03:32

And I just was thinking of those words that Ben just got to read from Elder Maxwell, like we have so much and are we happy? And yet the people of Senegal and you know, western tip of Africa are so happy. They do smile all the time and they share. I mean we actually ate out of a bowl that was prepared by one person and we all ate out of the same bowl. And that's how meals are prepared. Everything is shared, every resource, everything. And that's love. I mean that is true love and togetherness, that's everything. And they don't, these people that that I lived with for a week didn't, don't know Jesus Christ. But they will. When they meet Him, they'll know. They'll know immediately because of their acts of love and kindness.

Tammy 1:05:19

Thank you to both of you for sharing your thoughts on this idea of love and what that looks like for us in our lives. And many of us listening know where we can improve and who needs our love. That's been significant for me is the idea of someone who needs my love, not my eros or philio, but my agape, to really love them the way Jesus loves them. So Allison, I love that story about Relief Society. Just to get a glimpse of that kind of love, so thank you. So after this beautiful discourse from the Savior, this new commandment that He gives them, Peter is going to jump in to prove the love that He has for the Savior. He is going to show Him exactly what he's willing to do in this level of agape. And we're going to find out what Peter says to prove this love in the next segment.

Segment 6 1:06:02

.....

Tammy 1:06:02

So Peter was so moved by the instruction to love others, that Peter then jumps in and he asked the Lord a question. Allison, will you read for us John 13:36-38.

Allison 1:06:30

"Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards. Peter said unto Him, Lord, why cannot I follow thee now? I will lay down my life for thy sake. Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice."

Tammy 1:07:00

Okay, now we're going to cross reference this verse. Let's go to Luke 22:31 & 32. We're gonna read both of these. So in Luke 22:31, the Lord says to Simon, "Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:" Now, before we even start thinking about Peter, let's look at the footnote. Down below is a Joseph Smith translation, and it says, And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, "Satan hath desired you, that he may sift the children of the kingdom as wheat. Now that changes things. Like Satan's after you, Peter, so that he can destroy the children of the kingdom. Now, there's some foreshadowing there.

Tammy 1:07:46

But look at 32. "But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen my brethren. How cool would it be to know that the Savior specifically prays for you? He says, I'm praying for you, Peter. But then underline the word 'converted' there. Because it means something different. In Greek, it actually means when thou hast 'turned again,' strengthen thy brethren as a prophet, seer, and leader. Like, you're going to change, you're going to turn, you're going to make it, there's gonna be a difference in your life from who you are right now. And so He's kind of foreshadowing this about what's going to happen. And then He says, and by the way, when that does happen, I want you to strengthen your brethren. Okay, now all of this leads up to the big elephant in the room, the thing that we've kind of been talking about. So Alison, will you please read for us Peter's response in verse 33. And then what the Savior says to him in verse 34.

Allison 1:08:42

Okay, He says: "And he and he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death. And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me."

Tammy 1:08:57

Okay. Let's go really quickly now to Matthew 26:34. We're gonna see how Matthew worded this. Matthew 26:34. And Ben, will you read verse 34 for us. It's the same conversation that the Savior had with Peter. And here's what the Savior says to him in verse 34.

Ben Schilaty 1:09:23

"Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice."

Tammy 1:09:30

Okay, we're gonna go one more scripture reference: Mark 14:30. And here's what the Savior said to Peter and the wording that Mark wrote down. I'll read verse 30. "And Jesus saith unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this day, even in this night, before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice." All three have the same wording. What is the Savior saying to him?

Ben Schilaty 1:09:57

You know, this really reminds me of the conversation we had earlier about the Sacrament. And the thought I had, as we were reading these was, when I take the Sacrament, I think, you know what? This thing I did, I'd never do that again. And this thing I haven't been doing that I want to do, I'm gonna do 100%. I'm gonna be perfect. I just imagine God telling me, Ben, you say you're never gonna do this, but you're actually going to do it tomorrow. You say you're gonna be perfectly loving and kind and forgiving. But you're gonna get mad before before Sacrament Meeting's even over, you know. And I just like, see this sincere desire that Peter has. He's like, I will do anything, I will follow you. And Jesus says, 'You know what, you're not there yet.' And, but then He gives him this opportunity. And the powerful person that Peter becomes, you know, I just think God, kind of like chudkles and is like, I'm going to be perfect at this thing. He's like, No, you're not. But that's okay, because you will be.

Tammy 1:10:58

Okay, so I'm going to suggest a different way to look at this. So I want you to go back into verse 30, where it says "before the cock crow twice," he says, "Thou shalt deny me thrice." All three accounts agree that the Savior said, Thou shalt deny me thrice. Think of that wording "thou shalt," what else in Scripture starts with "thou shalt", or "thou shalt not:?

Tammy 1:11:23

The commandments.

Tammy 1:11:24

The commandments. Scholars believe that actually what the Savior is doing is commanding Peter, thou shalt deny me.

Allison 1:11:34

Oooh.

Tammy 1:11:35

Now, that that makes more sense, because Peter's like I would die for you, I will do anything for you. And the Savior earlier said, 'But wait a minute, I need you to be converted, I need you to turn and become the Prophet and then strengthen your brethren.' I believe, more so, that Peter did not want to do it. But the Savior's like, No, you have to do it. It's the only other wording the Savior speaks using this commandment wording. In all of the New Testament, all four gospels, it's the only time that Savior says, "Thou shalt" to another human being.

Tammy 1:12:10

For me, it changes it. Now, don't just listen to me, because I'm going to give you a little bit of background. Andrew Skinner has this to say about Peter and his denial. And by the way, remember back in Matthew 26:21 when the Savior said, 'one of you will betray me'. He didn't say, two of you will betray Me, at the meal. Only one, which was Judas. If He knew that Peter was really going to betray Him, He probably would have included him in that. Some of you may betray Me is what He would have said. But He didn't, because He knew that the only way for Peter to be the Prophet was to really say, Yeah, I don't know Jesus. So here's what Andrew Skinner says. Allison, can you read this quote for us.

Allison 1:12:52

"Some may ask, Why then did Peter weep bitterly after his denial? Isn't it possible that those were tears of frustration and bitter sorrow in the realization that he was powerless to change the Lord's fate? He had done what needed to be done, but every impulse inside of him was to act differently - to prevent the suffering of the Savior. That must have been a bitter pill for Peter to swallow. He wept tears of frustration precisely because he was obedient and also because he was fully aware that he was going to lose his master to the inevitability of death. In my view, Peter's denial, far from detracting from his stature, greatly adds to it."

Tammy 1:13:37

Now, tell me your thoughts.

Allison 1:13:41

I had no, I've never looked at it this way, that maybe he was commanded to do this hard, hard thing,

Tammy 1:13:50

Yeah.

Allison 1:13:52

you know, and not, not really knowing kind of what would happen after or what would happen to him or the Lord. I mean, just never thought of it that way. Kind of changes everything.

Ben Schilaty 1:14:05

And I'm just impressed with Peter's commitment to loving and following the Savior.

Tammy 1:14:09

Yeah, that was for me. Now, listen, for years I believed and thought that Peter had a moment of weakness and that he lapsed and that he denied knowing the Savior. But after reading and studying this, and there's a great talk by Spencer W. Kimball, who even supports this same idea where it's just like, Peter didn't want to do it. And that's why the Savior said, No, you will, thou shalt. And I think sometimes in our life we're asked to do hard things. Really hard. Things that we're like, Nah. And it goes back to what you said - I love this idea Ben - the most mundane of us, the most tappiest of tap waters and the yuckiest of bread. And you all know what I'm talking about. Sometimes you get that sacrament bread and you're like, Seriously, that's the best you could do? It's freezer-burned. It's been in someone's fridge, you know, someone forgot and they ran home and got freezer-burned bread. The Lord can take that and sanctify it.

Tammy 1:15:03

And the Lord sanctified Peter. Like, think about how powerful that must have been for just, and this kind of a hothead, like, I'll die for you, I'll do anything for you. And in fact after Gethsemane, he loses it, chops off a man's ear. Talk about that later. But I just think there's so much power in this, and especially in this discussion, "Lord, is it I? " I mean, Peter was one that asked that, "Lord, is it i?" Like, am I the, am I gonna deny you? And even the Lord then was like, Nope, I'll tell you who it is, but it's not you. So thinking about this all, like, apply it to our lives.

Ben Schilaty 1:15:40

You know, I, Matthew 26 is actually a chapter that is very important to me personally. Because when I was 30 years old, I was, I decided I was going to be done with the church. I just felt like there was no room in it for a gay person like me, and I decided I was going to step away. But I decided I wasn't gonna give up on God, so I was gonna keep praying and reading the scriptures. And Matthew 26 was actually what got me to stay. And I found myself reading this week where I decided I was done. And actually, before Sunday rolled around, I changed my mind. So I didn't even get to miss a Sunday. So I was very bad at leaving the church. But I found myself reading in Matthew 26 and in verse 39, you know, the Savior says His prayer that we all know where he says, O, my Father, if thou be willing," or sorry, "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me, nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt."

Ben Schilaty 1:16:27

And then as I kept reading, I noticed something I'd never noticed before. In verse 42 it says, "He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O, my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me except I drink it, thy will be done." Then two verses later, verse 44. "And he left then and went away again and prayed the third time, saying the same words." And until this moment it hadn't occurred to me this, that the Savior said that prayer three times. And it occurred to me He really didn't want to do this. Like, this was a hard thing that He didn't want to do. But He was willing to do His Father's will, no matter what it was.

Ben Schilaty 1:17:00

And I thought, what's being asked of me as a gay member of the church is really hard. And I didn't want to do it. And I thought, Well, but what does God want me to do? What cup is He offering me? And after reading this I thought, I want to be like Jesus. And I knelt down and said a very sincere prayer. I said, "God, whatever cup You're offering me, I will drink it." And I felt a very clear and very annoying prompting that I was being called to move forward within the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And that moment changed everything for me. And because I wasn't trapped in a doctrine and culture, but I was being asked to move forward and grow and expand. And it was the example of the Savior and like, here the example of Peter being willing to do something hard, that made it possible for me to receive the revelation that that was right for me in my life.

Tammy 1:17:45

Oh, my gosh. Ben, thank you for sharing that. I had no idea. Matthew 26 meant that much to you.

Ben Schilaty 1:17:51

It's one of my very favorite chapters in all of Scripture. It really changed my life. It really did.

Tammy 1:17:57

I'm so glad that it did. And I'm so glad that you adhere to the "Ben, thou shalt stay."

Ben Schilaty 1:18:03

Yeah, me too.

Tammy 1:18:04

We need you. What about for you, Allison?

Allison 1:18:07

In Luke 22 in the verses 31-32, He says, and we just read it, that "Satan has desired to have you" and apparently that 'you' is plural, all of you, "that he may sift you as wheat." And I think a lot of times we like to use the phrase 'sifted, oh, the sifting' and whatnot, as kind of the Lord, you know, all the people that aren't faithful enough,will be gone. But then there's this like, there's this moment where the Lord says, But I have prayed for thee. Like, I don't just let the Satan sift you. That's not how the Lord works. "I have prayed for thee that thy faith fail not." And He's talking to Simon Peter in this moment. And having like, now we understand that He's asking him to do this really hard thing. And He's saying and praying that you won't, that you'll do this really hard thing, and maybe deny Me three times. That your faith will fail you not. And when you are converted, or turned back, when you turn back to Me, strengthen thy brethren.

Allison 1:19:20

And in this idea of when you do this hard thing and come back to Me, you will be strengthened, and you will be able to guide and strengthen other people. I mean, what a blessing! And it starts out with this idea that we're going to be sifted, while there's good grains when it's in the sifting. And then we can be good grain and we are. And Tammy, you know how much I love the symbolism of wheat. Women in the gospel of Jesus Christ who pick up those little kernels of wheat and make amazing things happen, not only with Naomi but in our early days in the valley, the pioneer, you know, our Pioneer ancestors, the women in the Relief Society who picked up grain and turned it into essentially our welfare system.

Allison 1:19:26

Yeah,

Allison 1:19:27

This idea, this idea of the sifting and the strengthening that happens because of it. Not that the Satan has control of us, but the Lord prays for us to not lose our faith. He's there, and He's praying for us. And just like with Ben, this idea, like, Ben will strengthen when He does the thing that the Lord asks him. He'll strengthen himself, he'll be strengthened by the Lord, and then he'll be able to strengthen others. And I just, I love these words.

Tammy 1:20:38

I have a question for you, Allison.

Allison 1:20:40

Yes, m'am.

Tammy 1:20:40

Go back to verse 32. When has the Savior said those words to you?

Allison 1:20:45

Sorry, Tammy. When I first started doing this work, there were a couple of times where I just thought I cannot do this anymore. This just is ripping my heart apart, it ripped my heart apart when my brother died, and watching a son. I just thought I cannot do this. And the Spirit said to me, "You'll get over this. And you'll be able to do it again. And it'll happen again. And you'll get over it and you'll be able to stay with this and keep doing it. It's the thing that keeps me going because I know the Lord said to me, I know you're brokenhearted. I know your wom heart is ripping apart. And doing this on a bigger scale makes it worse, but you'll get over the pain, and you'll be able to keep going. And you'll do it again and again. And you won't lose your faith. You just keep turning back to Me. And it was the one moment that really keeps sustaining me when I get angry.

Allison 1:21:44

And you both know, because I turned to both of you. You're both those people that can say, What is going on here? And the Lord is the one that can, you know, my dear friends like you, they lift me back up, but the Lord's the one that promised me I'll be able to keep going.

Tammy 1:22:02

And I will offer as a second witness to that, that He is praying for you, Allison. And oh He has gotten down on His knees and He's cleaned your feet after those horrible journeys that you've taken. So, you're a witness to me of verse 32. So thank you so much. Wow, powerful. Huuuh. Oh, that was a beautiful discussion today. Thank you. That's it, we're done. That's Matthew 26 and Luke 20. There were just three chapters we covered and we could still go on forever. But that, that's it. That's our discussion. Okay. So just take a minute and I want you to gather your thoughts, and what is your takeaway from today? What is going to stick with you or what are you're like, "Oh, that's cool"?

Ben Schilaty 1:22:44

So my takeaway from this discussion, there've been a lot of things, I wish I could have like two or three takeaways. but I'll just share one. Is that I want to do a better job of being more aware of the mundane things in my life, things that seem mundane, and then seeing how God can sanctify those things for me, and make them Holy. There's a prayer I pray every time I walk to the temple, when I work in the temple, and I always pray that whoever interacts with me will get to hear, feel God's love as they interact with me. And, you know, just like a little interaction in the temple feels so mundane, yet something that can be sanctified and become Holy. And I want to be a little more aware of how God can sanctify the things in my life to make them Holy.

Tammy 1:23:30

Amen. Great takeaway. What about you, Allison?

Allison 1:23:36

I, I'm like Ben, there's like three or four things that are just so powerful in just these scriptures, that I think I am just, I just am focused on the body of Christ right now and how we, how we have an opportunity every week, unless it's stake conference or General Conference, to participate in that ritual of together as saints taking part of the body of Christ and being part of the body of Christ, both in understanding that we belong to Him, and helping others know that they belong. And gathering others into that feeling. Because once you've had that feeling that God loves you, that you are His, it fortifies you against a myriad of hard roads and hard things. And every person needs to know how much God loves them, and that the only way they can know that is if they are in the body of Christ, if they are part of this. And I just, I love this imagery that in the Sacrament and in Corinthians and just the idea that I'm giving His body over to be crucified in that gesture. He's pulling all of us together and loving all of us in a way that is a truly divine type of love.

Tammy 1:25:08

Wow, amen. I will Amen that. Thank you. Mine is your hymns. I love it. And I love that it's in my scriptures forever. And as you have talked throughout today, I can see why they're your favorite hymns because you you are your favorite hymns. Like Allison - "Lord, I Would Follow Thee", and Ben: "Because I Have Been Given Much", in the way that you answer, the way that you carry yourself and what the work that you're doing here on God's earth for God, which is what I love. And you both are examples to me of agape, no doubt about that. And so that word will never be the same for me. I will always think of Allison and Ben. So thank you so much for your discussion. And thanks for coming prepared. I really appreciate both of you so much. Gosh, I love you guys.

Ben Schilaty 1:25:52

We love you too.

Tammy 1:25:53

Oh, that was a powerful discussion. I love you, I love you.

Allison 1:25:56

I love you both too, such good conversations. So good to be with you.

Ben Schilaty 1:26:02

Always a pleasure to be with you all.

Tammy 1:26:04

Well, oh, okay. Of course I want to know what you've learned. So if you haven't already joined our discussion group on Facebook or following us on Instagram, you should. It is a great place to share what you've learned as well as ask questions that you are studying throughout the week. And then I try to answer some of those questions and I just love to know what you're thinking and learning. And then on Saturday, we post a question from this episode, so comment on the post that relates to the lesson and share your answer and thoughts. You can get to both our Facebook and Instagram by going to the show notes for this episode on LDS living.com/sunday on Monday and it's not a bad idea to go there anyway, because that's where we're going to have the links to all the references we used today, as well as a transcript of this entire discussion, and a glue-in for this episode. So go check it out.

Tammy 1:26:44

The Sunday on Monday Study Group is a Deseret Bookshelf Plus original brought to you by LDS Living. It's written and hosted by me, Tammy Uzelac Hall, and today our incredible study group participants were Allison Dayton and Ben Schilaty. And you can find more information about these friends at LDS living.com/sunday on Monday. Our podcast is produced by Cole Wissinger and me; it is edited by Hailey Higham, and recorded and mixed by Mix At Six Studios. And our executive producer is Erin Hallstrom. Thanks for being here. We'll see you next week.

Tammy 1:27:13

And oh, please remember that God really does agape you because you are His favorite.

Tammy 1:27:23

He says, Thou shalt deny me trice, twice. Thou shalt deny me twice, thrice. Blach. : )

Transcribed by https://otter.ai