16: “Thou Art the Christ” (Matthew 15–17; Mark 7–9)

Tammy 0:00

What is your earliest memory of bearing your testimony? Like how old were you and what did you say? Has it grown or changed over the years? And is there a defining moment that contributed to your testimony of Christ? Today's study of Matthew chapters 15-17, and Mark chapters 7-9 will show us examples of testimony, and some defining moments, as well as very unique places that a testimony can be borne. Welcome to the Sunday on Monday Study Group, a Deseret Bookshelf Plus original brought to you by LDS Living, where we take the Come, Follow Me lesson for the week and we really dig into the scriptures together. I'm your host, Tammy Uzelac Hall. Now if you're new to our study group, we just want to make sure you know how to use this podcast. So follow the link in our description and it's going to explain how you can best use this podcast to enhance your Come, Follow Me study just like my friend - and this friend that I am saying hello to is very specific - it is Shelby Harris, who happens to be related to the guests that I have on the podcast today. And I cannot wait to introduce you to my guests. Okay, that's my favorite thing about this podcast. Each week, I'm joined by two guests. And so today I have Kirsten and Greg Ward. Hi !

Greg 1:09

Hello

Kirsten 1:10

Hello, Tammy.

Tammy 1:11

Okay. These people are related to me through marriage. They are. Kirsten is my husband Jim's cousin, first cousin, and Shelby that we said hello to - Hey, Shelby - she's the daughter of your brother. Is that right?

Kirsten 1:24

Step daughter-in-law. Yeah, yes.

Tammy 1:26

So, this is so fun. I love these two so much. We get together every Christmas for our annual family cookie party, which is always a highlight. And my daughter Kirsten is named after this Kirsten. So I think that's pretty neat.

Greg 1:40

That's cute. I love that.

Tammy 1:42

How did you two meet? How long have you been married? What's your story?

Greg 1:44

Yeah, we have almost competing versions of this but not really. I always say we met at six years old because she had a babysitter named Roger Matthews, it was actually his mom. I had a babysitter named Rilda. Roger and Rilda got married when we were 6 - we were, both, because she's a month older than I am. So we were both at that wedding. And then her sister Jennifer, who of course, you know.

Tammy 2:12

Yeah.

Greg 2:12

And my sister Tara, when they were in sixth grade they were best friends. And so we were kind of at each other's house on occasion. When we were in fourth grade and we started going to the same school in junior high nd she wouldn't have anything to do with me. I always thought she was really cute. But we started dating senior year in high school. It goes back a long way.

Tammy 2:34

Oh, that is a sweet story. I didn't even know that story.

Greg 2:37

Oh, there's lots, lots to the story.

Tammy 2:40

What's your story Kirsten?

Kirsten 2:42

All true. I tried to get him to date me forever.

Greg 2:45

That's the part where it's baloney.

Kirsten 2:49

I wrote his initials in my journal.

Tammy 2:51

Well, that counts for a lot.

Kirsten 2:52

I know, and that I liked you. I thought you were cute.

Greg 2:55

I will say that

Kirsten 2:58

He was the wildest boy in our high school.

Greg 3:01

It was more of an apparent reputation or real reputation. But I like to try to foster that just because I didn't know anything better. But it all worked out.

Kirsten 3:11

Anyway. And here we are 85 years later.

Tammy 3:15

85 years later.

Greg 3:17

Yeah, so no, it'll be 35. Right? '88. 35, yeah. 35 years this year. May.

Tammy 3:24

That's awesome. And you have a darling daughter who is married, and we just love them. Do you wanna give 'em a shout out.

Greg 3:30

He is so great.

Kirsten 3:31

Hi, Rebecca. Hi, Bailey.

Tammy 3:33

Yeah,

Greg 3:34

Just easiest kid in the world. Just model citizen kid. Bailey's Wonderful. So we love them both.

Tammy 3:42

Yeah, they are great people. I love your daughter. But then kind of cool note is, your son-in-law I knew growing up.

Greg 3:48

You knew Bailey?

Tammy 3:50

Yes. Well, because Rick and Robbie are my parents' very best friends.

Kirsten 3:56

Oh. Yeah,

Greg 3:58

Oh, yeah, yeah

Tammy 3:59

Yeah, I know. So we traveled with them all my life growing up. So when I saw them at the wedding, I'm like, What are you doing here? So it was super fun. Yes. Yeah, so fun. Okay, well, for those of you listening, if you want to know more about my friends and see pictures of them and read their bio, you can find those in our show notes which are at LDS living.com/sunday on Monday. So I'm excited to have you two here; I have no idea what they're going to say. I know a little bit about their story, but not a lot. All I know is they listen to the podcast. And at Christmastime I had the thought, Have them on the podcast. So I reached out and they agreed, which I totally appreciate. So thank you so much. And I am really looking forward to seeing where this discussion will go. I think it's going to be a blast. So grab your scriptures everyone and your Scripture Journal and something to mark your Scriptures with and let's dig in.

Tammy 4:44

Okay, this is a big one right out of the gates. And I sent you guys this so you knew what you were in for. You had a chance to back out.

Greg 4:56

No

Tammy 4:52

You didn't. So thank you. So here's what I want to do, first things first. Is there a defining moment that contributed to your testimony of Christ, and will you share it?

Kirsten 5:01

Yeah. I'll go back to you know how you opened with "Do you remember the first time you bore your testimony?" I was 5, we lived in Los Altos, California. And I got up and the only thing I could get out with a lot of emotion was, I'm so grateful I live in this beautiful world. And I said it twice, and I couldn't speak any more. And, which is odd for me, and I sat down. And I just felt like, uhhh, that was silly. But I had a really good Home Teacher who wrote me the kindest note that told me, it was Elder Coleman. And he wrote me a note that said, That was a beautiful testimony. And that was the beginning of my testimony. But I'm very different from Greg in that I had the blessing to grow up in the church. And so my testimony of Christ was fostered as a very young child, and have never doubted my testimony of Christ. And it's just been supported and supplanted by all the things and all the learning that come with living life and being a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. So that's, that's how my testimony of Jesus Christ started.

Greg 6:18

I think that's such a blessing. Because when we talked about this the other day and you said you've never doubted; it just wasn't something that would have crossed my mind, or I would have experienced just because I did grow up very differently, obviously. And I don't think everybody, I think most people probably don't have that strength of the testimony, never doubting, just always knowing. So that's really powerful for me. So I wasn't a member of the Church until I was 19. I started dating at 17; Kirsten was my missionary, she taught me about the gospel. I like to say I never missed a day of school from grade school through senior year in high school. And that's a statement, even for not even being sick, until we cut 6th period together! And she started teaching me basically about the gospel, of the Plan of Salvation. And it just was so, it just made so much sense and it's something I had never heard before. I did not have religion in my home, I grew up in a loving home, there's no question. My parents are wonderful and I love them, and they love me and they love Kirsten. And that's not a question. We just didn't have religion at all.

Greg 7:29

I like to say I didn't know what the Christmas story was, tho. One time when I said that someone said, "What, you didn't know who Santa Claus was?" And that's no, that's not what I meant. I didn't know that Christmas was about the birth of Christ. So it wasn't until I was 17 going on 18 that I even knew much about that, other than unfortunately hearing it as an epithet. And not necessarily the first testimony of Christ, but the first testimony was really just brought home when we did Temple Pageant. I don't know if you're familiar with that. It's like the Hill Cumorah Pageant. It was something they did in the Bay Area, California. And they had multiple stakes get together. And it was 1000s of youth that were in a balcony choir. And on the stage was the play of the history of the church, essentially. And then we were in the balcony choir. And the audience would come in and the balcony was dark, they didn't know we were there. And we were quiet until it was our turn to sing.

Greg 8:33

And then the very first song is "Who Am I?" And it was just, it's still to this day one of the most powerful testimonies I have in terms of who am I, you know. The words "This being that I am who walks the earth and its beings as myself. Born was I of parents, who are they? Why do I exist to walk awhile, and then depart?" These are all questions I asked, didn't know the answer to until Kirsten taught me and then that song ends with: "This is who I am. I am a child of my Father in Heaven." It's such a wonderful song. But I'll, not to monopolize time, but to answer your question about the first testimony of Christ, because you, and you also asked when was the first time I bore my testimony? Not until I was on my mission, I don't think. I was in the office as a financial secretary for a period of time so I had access to some things that I wouldn't have in Venezuela. We used, not a lot of media around, but in the office we had a VHS machine and the church had just come out with a video of the hymn "I Stand All Amazed." And the way that was phrased, and every time I sing that hymn now in my head, I always phrase it the same way with pauses. And I'm not going to sing it for you because I cannot sing.

Tammy 9:52

Ah rats,

Greg 9:54

even though I was in the balcony choir, just because there were 2000 kids and I could hide

Tammy 9:58

Sure. Anyone can sing in that big a choir.

Greg 9:59

But yeah, but let's just say the way it was phrased and contemplating, you know, these things that Christ did for me, a sinner, you know, suffered, bled and died. It just was very clear that we had a Savior. So that was my first real testimony of Christ.

Tammy 10:20

Wow. You know, thank you to both of you for sharing your testimony right out of the gates first thing first, and setting the tone for today's discussion. It is entirely about testimonies, people gaining testimonies, what it looks like, unique places that they gain testimonies. And you both are evident of that, of your testimony, unique places, and, and even ages. Like there's no specific age when it counts. I think a five-year old testimony can be as powerful as a 19-year old testimony, and we witnessed that today. So thank you to both of you for sharing that. So go with me now; let's jump into our scriptures. And I want us to look at map number 11. That's where we're gonna go first things first. In order to start our stories today, we have to be aware of a map. So if you have the gospel app, you want to go into, go into the Scriptures. And then you'll see all these different things. You'll see Study Helps. Click on Study Helps, and then click on Bible maps. And then you want map number 11. It's called the Holy Land in New Testament times.

Tammy 11:23

And the reason why you want to look at this map is because at the very top, up at the north, there are two cities. They are numbered 1, both of them are 1. It's Sidon and Tyre. Can you see that on your map? Now this is interesting. It's the setting for our story. And what we want to know about this is these two cities Sidon and Tyre or Tyre, however you want to say it, this is Gentile territory, you guys. There's no reason why Jesus and the apostles would ever go here. This is a non-Jewish area. And during the Savior's ministry, He was not to take His gospel to anyone other than the children of Israel. So it's really interesting that it's labeled on a map; it must be important for us to know. Now we're going to go into Matthew chapter 15. So go with me into the scriptures to Matthew 15:21. That's where our story starts, where we're going to start studying from. You can also reference this in Mark 7:24. So in Matthew chapter 15, that's where we're going to be, verse 21. Kirsten, will you read verse 21 for us and begin our story?

Kirsten 12:32

Yes, Matthew 15:21. :Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon."

Tammy 12:40

Thank you. That's all we need to read. Because Jesus and his apostles went to these two cities. And this is the only record of the Savior and His apostles ever going there in the whole New Testament. So what in the world are they doing in Tyre and Sidon? Well, we're going to find out in the next segment.

Segment 2 12:58

.....

Tammy 13:14

Okay, everyone. Turn with me to Mark 7:24. So we were in Matthew, yep. Now we're gonna go to Mark; we're going to flip back and forth between these two. Okay, Mark 7:4. And it's similar to the one we just read last segment in Matthew, verse 24. It says again, "And from thence he arose, and went into the borders of Tyre and Sidon". Now, this gives us a little more information about why they're there. It says, "and entered into an house, and would have no man know it: but he could not be hid." So some think He probably just went to rest before He had to start doing more stuff in His ministry. But there's no rest for the weary, am I right? So He can't be hid. So we're going to go back to Matthew chapter 15 and we're going to look at verse 22, and find out why they couldn't be hid, and why they weren't able to take a break. So Greg, will you please read for us verse 22.

Greg 14:05

Sure. So Matthew 15:22. "And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried to him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil."

Tammy 14:18

Thank you. Let's underline "a woman of Canaan." Now, if you go back to Mark 7:26, it's going to tell us she was Greek. And then it says she was Syro-Phoenician. Here's what you need to know about this. So she's an outsider from the Jews. And as a woman of Canaan, she probably was that way because the Phoenicians were descendants of the Old Testament Canaanites. So there's a couple of negatives against her right here. First of all, she's a woman, so they have every right to kick her out. Secondly, she's from an outside race. And thirdly, she's from an outside religion. The Savior shouldn't even be teaching to her or talking to her at all. So three negatives against her, and then we come in to what she requests in verse 22. But I just really want us to read all the way again now verses 22-25. And as we do, the two of you, I want you to tell me what we're learning about this woman, underlying anything that strikes you that tells us who she is, what she believes, or knows. Okay, here we go. We're going to start in verse 22. Greg, will you read that again for us? And then Kirsten will you read 23. I will read 24, and then Greg 25.

Greg 15:29

Okay. Matt. 15:22 "And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried in him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

Kirsten 15:42

23. "But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

Tammy 15:53

24 "But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Greg 15:58

25 "Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me."

Tammy 16:03

Okay, what did you underline? What did we learn about this woman?

Kirsten 16:08

She wasn't afraid to ask for help.

Tammy 16:11

Yeah.

Greg 16:14

I'm having a hard time focusing on her and not how rude Christ was.

Tammy 16:20

No, that's okay.

Greg 16:21

No, I mean,

Tammy 16:22

Yeah, talk to me.

Kirsten 16:22

It wasn't rude. He had a mission. We had a talk about that.

Greg 16:25

I understand. The first, Yeah, the first impulse. And we've already talked about it, but it's still the first impulse is, you know, He answered her not a word.

Tammy 16:33

Yeah.

Greg 16:34

But then she came to Him and worshipped Him, you know. Multiple times, right?

Tammy 16:40

Now, Greg, that's so interesting, because you just said, He said not a word to her. But then she came and worshipped Him. Whoa, talk to me more about that. Why did that stand out to you?

Greg 16:53

So I think human nature is if someone offends you, the first thing you want to do is offend them back. And you have to have an infinite amount of patience, or really believe something so strongly that really nothing else matters. Right?

Tammy 17:11

Oh. Hold on, I've got to write that down. Keep going.

Greg 17:15

Yeah. So the natural response would have been some kind of retort or, you know, Hey, don't you have anything to say to me or, you know, you too good for me? I mean I can think of all kinds of common retorts that people might come up with.

Kirsten 17:27

But she had a purpose, and as parents, right? or not even just a parent, but someone that you love so much that you want something for. She had both confidence to ask, humility to ask, and a powerful request that I don't get the impression she was going to leave easily and had the faith that He had the ability to help her.

Greg 17:52

Right, there was gonna be no barrier she wasn't going to overcome to achieve her goal.

Tammy 17:57

Oh, gosh, great insights into this woman. In fact, going back to your point, especially when it says that the Savior said nothing to her, then the Savior does speak. Let's dive into that. Kirsten, will you please read for us verse 26.

Kirsten 18:12

26 "But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs."

Tammy 18:21

Oh, boy, this did not sit well with me for years. What was your thought when you first read that Kirsten, as a woman, as a mother, to have that response?

Kirsten 18:34

Well, as a mother asking for something for my child, I think I would have paid no heed. But as a woman, if I had been asking for myself, I would have been offended.

Tammy 18:45

Yes,

Kirsten 18:46

But her response was so beautiful. How, why was she so smart?

Tammy 18:51

She's so smart. There's something she must have known. Let's read her response and then we're going to talk about the word 'dogs'. Go ahead and read her response Kirsten.

Kirsten 18:59

27 "And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their master's table."

Tammy 19:08

Why do you think that's smart?

Kirsten 19:11

I need something from you. You are my Savior. I know You can grant what I need, because I have the faith that You can provide it and I'll do whatever it takes, even if it's a crumb off the table.

Tammy 19:27

Wow

Greg 19:28

She knows that there's enough to spare. She must be aware that Christ's mission is to the Jews, not to the Gentiles, except He's there. And I'm sure we're gonna talk about that as well.

Kirsten 19:38

My mom did did make it a little more kind, but I bet you're gonna cover that, you know. She said what it may have really meant. It was a little more kind.

Tammy 19:42

Well let's look into that. So highlight the word 'dogs' in verse 26 and 27. This was really interesting to learn that the word dogs actually means those who are not not yet mature or prepared or worthy to receive sacred things of the kingdom. So He's not really calling her like a dog.

Greg 20:08

I mean, that's what the Jews use that term to mean?

Tammy 20:11

Yes. He's implying someone who just isn't yet matured, prepared, or ready to take on the the weight of being a follower of Jesus Christ. And that had kind of been His experience with the Jews so far, with some of them, right? And so He's saying, Yeah, I'm not supposed to take the children's bread and cast it to the dogs, people who weren't ready. But don't you love then, you said her response, Kirsten, she's so smart. She's like, Yeah, You're right. But dogs eat of the crumbles, which fall from their master's table. And Greg, you taught something so cool. And I even wrote next to my scriptures, I wrote "crumbs=enough to spare." Like, that was good.

Greg 20:11

And she knew that. She must have known that I think clearly, because what happens later in terms of all the people that gather, that His reputation preceded him, obviously, even that far away. One of the things I did in looking at this and cross referencing and so forth, one of them said that the word actually used was 'little puppies', but are translated, which was, in part diminutive, making it softer, but also referring to more household pet than derogatory, worst of worst. Because I've also heard that Jews will use the term dogs, much like modern day uses a similar term.

Kirsten 21:34

But it fits so well into what Tammy said about not being mature yet.

Greg 21:37

I like, I like that one best, actually. I like that better than 'little puppies' for sure.

Tammy 21:42

For sure. Well, and to me, it makes sense because we went back to the three strikes against her. First of all, she's a woman. And she's not even the same nationality, and not even the same religion. So I like how she says, "Truth, Lord." She's just like, You know what, You're totally right. I don't even belong to Your religion. I wasn't grown up with it. So I haven't really matured yet. But, again, Greg, there's enough to spare. Surely, I can just take some of the crumbs that fall from the table and it will help me and help my daughter, right? So then how much do we love verse 28. So Greg, read that for us. This is the result.

Greg 22:18

28 "Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.:

Tammy 22:30

So tell me about her testimony.

Kirsten 22:34

It was great. And I love that His compassion overcame His mission, which it did many times, right?

Tammy 22:43

Oh, hold on, you guys. I'm writing things. I mean, His compassion over, because, Oh, my gosh.

Kirsten 22:50

I think He probably loved the fact that her faith, really, she was going to do whatever it took to get the healing for her daughter and wasn't afraid to ask multiple times. And He could see that faith in her and His, it just enabled His compassion to overcome His mission at the time, which was to teach the house of Israel, right?

Tammy 23:14

Yeah, that's exactly right. In fact, it won't be until later on after He comes back a resurrected being when He says, Okay, feed my sheep. Now you can go teach the Gentiles; the Jews didn't want anything. It wasn't until then that they were allowed to start teaching the Gentiles or people from Tyre and Sidon, however you want to say it. So yes, I think that is so profound. His compassion overcame His mission. And that's exactly what happened here. So

Kirsten 23:38

Well, there's so many examples in this section of Matthew and Mark, where the order of things is important, right? I mean, the instructions that He gives His apostles and so forth, it's really interesting. But anyway, um, we'll probably cover that later.

Tammy 23:53

You know, that's really interesting. I have to tell you a cool experience I had when I attended the Draper temple. This woman who was the Matron and she was working with me in the temple, something had happened and I apologized because it wasn't totally following within the order of the way things are done in the temple. And I got emotional about it. And she is this beautiful woman with this accent - I think she's from Sweden - and she said, "My dear, it is better to break rules than break hearts."

Greg 23:53

Oh

Kirsten 23:53

That's awesome.

Tammy 23:54

Amen. Thank you for saying, like it just relieved me. "It is better to break rules than break hearts." And for that one moment, I felt relief like, Okay, thank you. So

Tammy 24:35

That's awesome.

Tammy 24:36

Oh, beautiful answer to both of you. Thank you so much for all that you shared. Because for me, I'm just looking at this going, This was a testimony borne of despair.

Kirsten 24:45

She was desperate to find help. It's not like they had, you know, exceptional medical knowledge or help at that time.

Tammy 24:53

Yeah. And she needed the help and she got it.

Greg 24:55

I think there's a somewhat of a similitude to it, if you will. She knew Him by reputation because He'd never been up there, she'd never met Him. It's just basically a very good example of faith, of believing in something that you haven't seen but you believe to be true.

Tammy 24:55

Yes,

Greg 24:55

And she believed very strongly that He could heal her daughter, even without her daughter being present because of a reputation. So I mean, that's a really good example of faith, of believing something you can't see, but believing

Tammy 25:35

In fact, we're going to talk so much about that today, the role that faith plays in all of the miracles that happen, and she's a great example of that. That is incredible, so thank you. In fact, let's do this because it's kind of cool to think, she absolutely could have just heard of His goodness, or there is a possibility she may have been witness to it. Let's turn to Mark 3:8 "And from Jerusalem, and from Idumaea, and from beyond Jordan; and they about Tyre and Sidon, a great multitude, when they had heard what great things he did, came unto him."

Tammy 26:06

Some scholars think that she may have possibly been in that multitude, and watched all the great things the Savior did. She was part of that congregation who came down. So the people from Tyre and Sidon came down to Jerusalem and witnessed the miracles. And so that may have been where she knew, Wait a minute, He could help me. She went back home, her daughter's sick. And so we have this really cool experience where as part of a crowd, she witnessed His goodness, His compassion, Kirsten, to use your words perfectly. And so it's empowering when we consider that what we've learned from her witness, and so what we're gonna do is in the next segment we're going to learn about another crowd that witnessed the power. And we're going to see what this crowd did with their witness.

Segment 3 26:50

.....

Tammy 27:05

This is a fun question. I want to know, what is a miracle that you have personally witnessed?

Kirsten 27:14

I'm here because of so many miracles. I've been a type I Diabetic since I was 11. And the time when I was pregnant 30 years ago, we didn't have a lot of equipment like we do now that makes things really a lot easier. So while I was pregnant and working downtown San Francisco, I had to just guess what my blood sugar was. And my blood sugar could go from normal to like, I could be in a coma in a fairly short period of time.

Greg 27:40

Minutes.

Kirsten 27:41

So one time I was alone, Greg was traveling, and I needed help. I could "see" my mother; I lived in San Francisco, she lived in Washington and I could "see" her praying by her bed. She had come in out of her garden and knew I was in trouble and was praying for me, asking me to be helped. And I was. And that was just one of many

Greg 28:00

countless

Kirsten 28:01

and miracles brought about by the power of the priesthood too, so.

Greg 28:06

So the one I'll share is: So, difficult pregnancy as a diabetic, just because the fetus decides to eat whenever it wants to, and takes all of mom's nutrients. Not that Becca was greedy. She was just healthy

Tammy 28:25

She's a lovely person.

Greg 28:27

And she, Kirsten was a wonderful mother to her. So she went through what's called therapeutic amniocentesis, just to remove amniotic fluid. Because when your body's fully distended, it thinks it's time to give birth, even though you're not there.

Kirsten 28:44

We didn't, Becca had duodenal atresia,

Greg 28:47

oh, yeah,

Kirsten 28:47

which there was no opening between her stomach and her intestines, and all of her organs were flipped around the wrong way. And she, we knew that she had to have surgery in the first 24 hours after she was born. And so they would do these procedures.

Greg 28:59

Right. So we went in on January 1st for her fifth therapeutic amnio and this was at 32 weeks of pregnancy, thinking it was just going to be routine,

Kirsten 29:13

which now seems like, Oh, that's, that baby's gonna be fine. But back then it was kind of iffy.

Greg 29:19

Yeah,

Tammy 29:19

right.

Greg 29:19

And so they performed the procedure. Kiersten had been having contractions because her body had been distended like she was nine months, for seven of those months. And so her body was just saying, Okay, it's time, and so she was still having contractions. And the contractions would slow down the heart rate of the fetus, because the pressure was greater in the contraction than her heart could pump. And the doctors gave her medications and various kinds of things because they wanted the fetus to stay in the womb longer to develop. They did some tests that said her lungs were not developed, she needed to stay inside. And we were there from morning until way late at night with all these procedures and everything they could try to keep the fetus inside, but the contractions weren't stopping. And they said, We're going to have to do an emergency C-section. And they did one more test to see if the lungs were developed. And the test again came back, No, they're not. So they said, Be prepared when she comes out; we're gonna put her in an incubator, we'll put her on a respirator and she'll be fine. So when the doctors left the room - this is where it gets hard -

Kirsten 30:39

I knew she'd be fine, but

Greg 30:43

So we decided to get Becca a blessing, was just me and Kirsten. I put my hands on Kirsten's womb and gave Becca a blessing that she'd be okay. And so they go through and they do the emergency C -section. And Becca comes out peeling paint off the walls, screaming so loud, her lungs were so strong. And the doctors were just absolutely flabbergasted. They said, We did tests multiple times, she's not supposed to be able to breathe. And here she is just super-developed and strong. That doesn't happen in the course of an hour, other than through a Priesthood Blessing.

Tammy 31:26

Wow! It's so emotional with that story. Because when you said - I'm just picturing your hands on her womb, on her cute belly and just blessing that - thank you for sharing that miraculous story. I think so many of us have stories of miracles that we don't often share enough, to witness and testify. That's our testimony of Christ is the miracles that we have in our lives. I think that's why they're here in the New Testament to remind us. There are miracles happening all the time. And I love our Prophet who said we have to expect miracles, because we do. In fact, in Matthew chapter 15, there's just two sweet verses that often go overlooked. And they just struck me as we were studying and preparing for this episode. And I want us just to read these verses, because after the woman's daughter is whole, in that very hour, oh my gosh, Greg, look at that. "In that very hour" this woman's daughter is whole. You just said that doesn't happen in an hour? Oh, it does.

Tammy 32:35

So then Jesus departs, in verse 29. And He comes to the Sea of Galilee, and He goes up into a mountain and He sits down there, but He can't be alone. No one's, this Man; His fame has been spread abroad. And we have these sweet verses. Look at verse 30 and 31. Kirsten, will you please read this for us.

Kirsten 32:52

Yeah, this is Matthew 15:30 and 31. "And great multitudes came unto him, having with them those that were lame, blind, dumb, maimed, and many other,s and cast them down at Jesus' feet; and he healed them:

Kirsten 33:11

31 "Insomuch that the multitude wondered, when they saw the dumb to speak, the maimed to be whole, the lame to walk, and the blind to see: and they glorified the God of Israel."

Tammy 33:24

Thank you. Those two verses right there. I want to know, what role does faith play in this story? I mean, it goes back to your your whole comment, Greg, about faith, because here are these people who have just heard that this Man can do this. I've been pondering this so much, like did the miracle have to happen before they got faith? Did they have faith before the miracle happened? Like how does this work?

Greg 33:54

There's always the line, Faith precedes the miracle.,Bbt I think there's also examples not only here, but when He's in Jerusalem, and just comes upon someone and heals them. And I don't know that that person had faith that Christ could heal them. Maybe they did. Maybe He knew that. Maybe He knew that they had faith and He could sense it. I don't know. Or He was just demonstrating, Look, this is, I'm a healer, and I can give you one example, very poignant and right now by healing this person of sight or leprosy or whatever, as an example of healing souls in any, in many other ways. So I don't, I don't really have an answer of what faith always has to precede the miracle because it seems like there's some examples where Christ has done something maybe to help develop faith.

Tammy 34:50

Excellent answer. Kirsten, what are your thoughts?

Kirsten 34:52

I think because I've been the receiver and been so fortunate, that sometimes we also can get complacent in expecting miracles. And I've also had that experience with an interesting outcome. We won't, you know, go into the detail on that story. But it's interesting how much confidence it builds in faith and how connected those two things are in the power of the priesthood. And really believing that through His power you can absolutely accomplish anything ever. And whenever needed through diligence and faith in priesthood blessings. So, and I'm not someone that naturally is like, you know, me, Tammy. I'm not naturally, Oh, I'm such a believer, and I'm so religious, and I'm such a scriptorian. Because I'm probably none of those things. But

Greg 35:54

but you are.

Tammy 35:56

I'm laughing. I'm like, I'm trying to contain it. Yeah, thank you, Greg.

Kirsten 35:59

But I'm really not. But you know what? I just can't even describe how powerful our Savior and His priesthood is. It's just amazing.

Tammy 36:13

Well, I want to go back to how you said there's a connection between faith and competence. Because look at that verse 30, the confidence it must take to the very end. It says, "and cast them down at Jesus's feet;" to just confidently cast them down. Like you can do this, do it, get her done. There's confidence right there.

Greg 36:15

Yeah.

Tammy 36:17

I, that word really struck me as we've been discussing this. And then what I think is incredible about this story, whether they had faith before or faith after is what they did with their experience. Look at the very last line in verse 31. What did they do?

Greg 36:52

Glorified the God of Israel.

Tammy 36:54

Highlight that in your scriptures, because I want to know from you guys, what does it look like? What does it look like when someone glorifies God? Today, in the world we live in.

Kirsten 37:04

You can see it and feel it, you know it. I mean, in our world of media, you know when something's glorifying God, or doing the opposite. Very easy to turn things off very quickly that aren't glorifying God. But glorifying God, and when people are doing that, it feels and looks warm.

Tammy 37:29

Oh, I like that.

Kirsten 37:30

Is something that draws you in. And you can sense people's gratitude as they glorify God. And authenticity.

Tammy 37:41

Yeah. So after this incredible experience they have, bracket off verses 32 to 39, because we get another incredible miracle story about feeding them with Loaves and Fishes, which is such a great story a second time. This is different than the first one we've studied. He's going to feed, in verse 38, besides women and children, 4000 men. So easily 8000 People got fed. It says in verse 34 what they had to feed the people with. It says seven loaves and just a few little fishes, I liked that they added the word little, just a few little fishes, not just a little bit of fish, few little fishes, not much. But again, everybody ate. And look at verse 32. What prompted the Savior to feed these people? Kirsten, read verse 32 for us.

Kirsten 38:32

32 "Then Jesus called His disciples unto him, and said, I have compassion on the multitude, because they continue with me for now for three days, and have nothing to eat: and I will not send them away fasting, less they faint in the way."

Tammy 38:47

Do we love the word compassion in connection with that!

Greg 38:50

As we say, as you said before, compassion overcoming the mission.

Tammy 38:54

Yes, He could have easily sent them away. Go take care of yourself, I'm exhausted. And He performs. And again, look how much, look how well He performed this miracle. Verse 37. Greg, look at verse 37 and read that for us.

Greg 39:07

37 "And they did all eat, and were filled: and they took up of the broken meat that was left seven baskets full."

Tammy 39:15

And they were filled. Boy I love that word when in connection with food. Takes a lot of, a lot of to be filled. But again, this goes back to what we learned about Him feeding the 5000. And Elder Holland beautifully taught us that it is a story of grace. And there's something beautiful about the number seven in this story. Seven in Hebrew means 'perfection, wholeness or completion'. And that's what He had just done for the people. They had just, He had just made them whole and perfect and complete by healing them. And then He feeds them. And I think that's what He does for us, especially that for those of us who glorify God. When we glorify the God of Israel, I felt like it just makes me feel like I am full. And that's a challenge for all of us to just really this week find a way to glorify God, because glorifying Him will fill our souls. Serving, like you said, you gave examples, serving Him, being grateful for him, helping other - helping our fellow men. How can that not fill us, right?

Greg 40:21

Yes, one of the most fulfilling things you can do. If you're ever down, find someone to help.

Tammy 40:28

Speaking of serving people, I'm interested to know though, which we didn't ask earlier, why did you decide to serve a mission?

Kirsten 40:36

By the way, he was adamant that he wasn't going to do that.

Greg 40:39

No, I,

Kirsten 40:40

Well, we had, we, we had, we had these plans to go through four years of school and get married. And he had always said, I'm not serving a mission. And I'm like, It's okay. I still like you.

Greg 40:50

It was a revelation to me - if you will, just came very clearly to my mind. You didn't go out and find this, it came to you freely. Someone served you, brought it to you.

Kirsten 41:02

made you cut school,

Greg 41:05

I should go out and take it to others and find them. Because I wasn't actively looking, it came to me. And so I wanted to go to other people who weren't actively looking and bring it to them.

Tammy 41:18

Wow. Well, thank you to both of you for your comments and for all that we're able to discuss from this story. I appreciate that. And so what we'll do is in the next segment, we get to learn about another person who glorified the God of Israel, and in turn was filled.

Segment 4 41:32

.....

Tammy 41:32

So I have an object to show you guys. And I want you to tell me everything you think of when you see this object, okay? You ready for rapid fire? Everything that comes to mind when I show you this object. Here is the object.

Greg 42:01

A rock. Solid.

Kirsten 42:04

Smooth and round and hard.

Tammy 42:08

Strength.

Tammy 42:10

Wait. I should be writing all these things down. Hold, please. He's a way of solid, strength, smooth, round, hard. Those are good.

Greg 42:20

Dense. I mean, you know, it's

Tammy 42:22

okay.

Greg 42:25

Substantial.

Tammy 42:26

Oh, that's a good one, too.

Kirsten 42:29

It could hold the blankets of a fort, and a foundational line.

Tammy 42:34

There you go. I like that.

Greg 42:37

Cornerstone.

Tammy 42:38

O. K. Okay. Wow, you guys gave awesome answers. I couldn't have prepped you better for that because those answers are going to really help us as we study Matthew 16:13-20. Let's turn there. Here we go. So we have the amazing miracle happen. And we're gonna go into Matthew chapter 16. And we're going to look, we're going to start out in verse 13. And so Jesus, He comes into the coast of Syria, Philippi. And he asked the disciples a question, and here's His question, -highlight this or underline it - "Whom do men say that I the Son of Man am?" And so basically, in our language, like, what are people sayingA? Who who does everyone think that I am, right? He wants to know, and I think that's a great question, because I'd like to know that about me. If you're wondering that, what are people saying about me? So who are people saying that I am? Now, are their answers come in verse 14, so Kirsten, read verse 14 for us.

Tammy 42:46

14 "And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets."

Tammy 44:32

Very good. Now, Greg read verse 15. The Savior responds to them with this,

Tammy 44:35

15 "He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?"

Tammy 44:39

Very good. Okay, grab a highlighter. And as Greg reads for us verse 16, we're gonna highlight Peter's robust answer. Hit it.

Tammy 44:45

16 "And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God."

Tammy 44:12

I read that testimony, and I think of Kirsten's cute five-year-old testimony: "I'm just so glad to live in this beautiful earth." Like the most succinct, perfect, true testimony. You feel the power of it. And here's Peter just saying, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." Now, what happens from this moment on is huge. And it has everything to do with the gospel of Jesus Christ then, and today. And we're going to mark a couple of important words and talk about the significance of these verses. So here we go. Let's read verse 17, what the Savior said to Peter after he bore his testimony. Kirsten, will you read that for us.

Kirsten 44:50

Matt 16:17 "And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."

Tammy 45:02

Let's just, right there that verse mark a couple of things. First, right out of the gates, Jesus answers and says, "Blessed art thou." So he's blessing Peter, I'm going to bless you for the testimony that you just shared. Then He calls him Simon Bar-Jona. Now Bar-jona is Hebrew. And this is kind of fun, because I finally understood what this meant when I studied Hebrew. BAR in Hebrew is SON; and JONA is the name of Simon or Peter's dad. So He's saying, Simon, son of Jona. So He knows his daddy, He knows his family. I think that's really interesting that He doesn't say, Listen, Peter, you're blessed. He's calling him his home root name. Simon, son of Jona. And then He says, "But flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father in heaven. "What? And there's just one answer for this, and it's so trivial, I know. It's not even a trick question, but just based on that, "for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven." What do we call that in the church today?

Kirsten 46:00

Revelation

Tammy 46:02

Perfect, Kirsten. Write that to the outside of verse 17. That's the key for all of this. He's saying right there, that's revelation. Peter has this experience with actual revelation. Now turn the page, because in verse 18 it says, "And I also say unto thee, That thou art Peter". Highlight the word 'Peter' right there. This is pretty cool. So the name Peter, or it would be pronounced PETROS at this time, in Greek means ROCK. So put that, underline Peter and put 'rock'. And then here's what He says. Greg, will you keep reading this verse for us, please.

Greg 46:39

18 "....and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

Tammy 46:44

All right, now highlight the word 'rock' because this is kind of cool. So the word ROCK in Hebrew is PETRA, and it means A ROCK MASS. So some scholars have always said right here, the Savior is revealing that He is going to build his church upon Peter the rock, as the Prophet. But just in the verse earlier, we just learned how important revelation is. And there's a connection between these two words. We have a great quote from Joseph Smith about Petra, meaning something other than just rock. It could actually mean revelation. Kirsten, will you read the first quote by Joseph Smith.

Kirsten 47:22

"Joseph Smith taught Jesus in His teaching says, "Upon this rock, I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. What rock? Revelation."

Tammy 47:35

There it is. So he's saying, Upon this rock I will build my church; upon revelation.

Kirsten 47:41

Could it be read, you know, sometimes when I read this Scripture, I read it a different way, maybe? Let me, can I read it how I hear it?

Tammy 47:50

Yes, please.

Kirsten 47:51

Okay. Because we know how He feels about Peter. He loves Peter, right? So when I read this, I read it as 'And I say also unto thee that thou art Peter, whom I love, and upon THIS rock, (the Savior pointing to himself), I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.' That's just how I see it. But

Tammy 48:18

Oh my gosh. Well, Kirsten, this is so cool, because there's scriptures to back up your comment about how the Savior is the Rock. Look how cool this is. Greg, will you read this next quote for us.

Greg 48:28

"The Rock could also mean Jesus. He is the rock of our salvation, the rock of help, Ebenezer, the stone of Israel."

Tammy 48:36

Thank you. And for those of you who want to know references for "stone of Israel," you can find this in our show notes, we put a bunch of them. But we've learned Ebenezer in Hebrew is EBEN means ROCK or STONE, and EZER means HELP. So He is the stone of help. So Jesus is telling us He's founding the church on the rock of revelation and on Himself. So as He's having this moment, this really cool moment, then we come into verse 19. And Kirsten, keep reading for us, Matthew 16:19.

Kirsten 49:05

"And I will give into thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Tammy 49:20

Okay, let's mark a couple of things there. First of all, when He starts by saying, "And I will give unto thee", that's future promise. Circle 'I will'; hasn't happened yet. And then He says, "the keys of the kingdom of heaven". But THIS is key where He says, "and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shalt be loosed in heaven,." Bracket that off and put next to it 'the sealing power'. So at some future time, and Peter's not sure when, he's going to get this incredible seaing power. Now why did you two look at each other that way?

Kirsten 49:55

Because we had some relatives who have passed on in Greg's family wait 10 years for us to get our act together. And they encouraged us greatly from the other side.

Greg 50:09

It was between doing the temple work baptism and the Endowment was 10 years. Aislin and Warren, my mother's parents I felt were very persistent in trying to get us to go back and get it done.

Kirsten 50:26

It just gave us a great testimony of how important this sealing powers are, and how badly people want them.

Tammy 50:37

You just bore testimony about the importance of genealogy and the power of seaing. Oh, my gosh, look at this quote. This is so cool, it's by Elder Boyd K. Packer about the sealing power; we have to read this. Greg, will you read this quote for us.

Greg 50:50

"Peter was to hold the sealing power, that authority which carries the power to bind or seal on earth or to loose on earth and it would be so in the heavens. Those keys belong to the President of the church, to the prophet, seer and revelator. That sacred sealing power's with the church now. Nothing is regarded with more sacred contemplation by those who know the significance of this authority. Nothing is more closely held. There are relatively few men who have been delegated the sealing power upon the earth at any given time. In each temple are brethren who have been given the sealing power. No one can get it except from the Prophet, seer, and revelator, and President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."

Tammy 50:51

You guys just testified of that line where it says, "Nothing is regarded with more sacred contemplation by those who know the significance of this authority. Nothing is more closely held." Thank you.

Greg 51:41

And we've had multiple, not just sealing power, but just all the temple ordinances. And because being a convert, most of my genealogy work is not done. And now it's my paternal grandparents who've been waiting. And we've had experiences doing some work for them and having very strong impressions, indications of their presence, and gratitude for the, for the gifts they just received.

Kirsten 51:44

We won't make them wait 10 years.

Greg 51:47

No, yeah, we're actually gonna do the initiatories this month, and then the Endowment after. So,

Tammy 51:55

Oh my goodness, that is fantastic. In fact, as you guys were speaking about that, it made me think back to your answers you gave for that rock. "Upon this rock I will build my church" and look what the sealing power is. And look what this rock is. It's solid, it's strength. It's, I like this, it's smooth, it's round, like one continual round always, it's substantial. I mean, that was pretty cool. It's constant. But then it makes a fort. I love that because it creates this fort where our whole families, we've talked about all through the Old Testament. Enlarge your borders, strengthen your stakes. Like we need to make room for everyone and those rocks are going to be what strengthen those stakes. So that is so cool, both of you, as we've talked about this. So it's neat to think how we have this this rock and the sealing power and the keys of the kingdom of heaven. So in the next segment, we're going to find out if Peter really did receive those keys.

Segment 5 53:22

.....

Tammy 53:38

I just have to say this before we move forward. I never knew that there would be this, just so many connections. That's what's made this episode so cool, is how it's just intertwined in your lives. So we still have two more segments to go and I cannot wait to see what stories you're gonna bring to the table, because this is so great. Oh my gosh. Okay, let's jump into Matthew 17:1. Okay, so verse 1 tells us, "And after six days", just highlight that. So 6 days have passed since Peter is blessed, since the Savior talks about the sealing power, and that He will - future tense - give Peter the keys of the kingdom of heaven. So, in chapter 17:1, I want you to circle the names of the people who are with the Savior in this moment. So we have Peter, James, and John. Now let's find out what happened in this experience. Here we go in verse 1, and I'll just have you read for us, Greg. You have to read verse 1 to find out where they went. Go ahead.

Greg 54:38

1 "And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringing them up into an high mountain apart,"

Tammy 54:45

Okay, circle 'mountain'. Boy, how many times have we seen that word and studied it? We learned this last year in Old Testament, and then we recently went over it in the last episode or two. One of our guests taught us, which was so cool, that 'mountain' is a symbol of the Temple, over and over and over again in Scripture. So think about that because they go up into a high mountain apart. So kind of be thinking Temple in your mind. And here's what happens. Kirsten, read verse 2 for us,

Tammy 54:45

2 "And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light."

Tammy 55:21

Okay, highlight 'transfigured'. I always had students like, what's transfigured? What's translated? What's the difference? So here is a great definition for you. You can find this on the church website if you look up the word Transfiguration. Here's the definition: 'It is the condition of persons who are temporarily changed in appearance and nature. That is, they're lifted to a higher spiritual level, so they can enjoy the presence and glory of heavenly beings.' So they had this moment, this Transfiguration with Peter, James, and John. Now, if you want to read so much more about this, I highly recommend "Jesus the Christ", chapter 23. You're gonna get a ton of good information about this experience. But here's what we need to know. Go to verse 3. Because while they're having this moment of Transfiguration, they have some visitors. Kirsten, read for us verse 3.

Kirsten 56:11

3 "And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him."

Tammy 56:15

Okay, underline Moses, and then underline Elias. And Elias is actually somebody else. We know "Elias" as a calling in our church, it's a name or a title. But in this specific experience, it is Elijah, the last prophet to hold the sealing power, which is so cool. And Moses holds the key of the gathering of Israel. What I'm, what you're going to also want to do is there was one other person there that the Matthew account doesn't say, but if you cross reference it to Mark 9:3, and look down at the footnote, that Joseph Smith translation tells us that John the Baptist was also there. Now, here's another thing you want to do: cross reference all of this to Doctrine and Covenants, section 110. A similar experience happens in that temple when the keys are restored back to Joseph Smith. So we just have to read the experience they had up on that mount. So we're going to read verses 4-9, and we'll each take a verse. And we'll start with Greg.

Greg 57:11

4 "Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

Kirsten 57:25

5 "While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

Tammy 57:39

6 "And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were so afraid.

Greg 57:45

7 "And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.

Kirsten 57:50

8 "And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.

Tammy 57:54

9 "And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of Man be risen again from the dead."

Tammy 58:05

So talk to me about this experience of you reading these verses, and what were some of the thoughts you had about Peter finally getting the keys of the kingdom?

Greg 58:14

Actually assign us your question. Are you saying that this is when he received it?

Tammy 58:19

Greg, I am so glad you asked that question, because my answer is definitively Yes. But let me show you what it says in the Bible dictionary under Mount of Transfiguration, just so you all know the truth of this. So Greg, will you read the quote for us.

Greg 58:32

"The Bible Dictionary states that while on the Mount, the Savior, Moses, and Elias, or Elijah, gave the promised keys of the priesthood to Peter, James, and John, which enabled these brethren to carry forth the work of the Kingdom on earth. And after the departure of Jesus, these keys were later given to all of the Twelve."

Tammy 58:50

Thank you. Okay, but listen to this. This is pretty cool, because here's something else that happened. A couple of things happened on the Mount of Transfiguration. You're going to read about this in the commentary that I use, which is the New Testament verse by verse. It is by D. Kelly Ogden and Andrew C. Skinner, as well as Joseph F. Smith "The doctrines of Salvation". They believe that, #1, they also received the keys of the kingdom, which is the gathering and sealing power. They received the sacred gift of knowledge, perhaps what we call the endowment up there. They had their calling and election made sure, and they had a vision of the earth in it's millennial and paradisical state. So that's a lot that happened on that Mount of Transfiguration.

Greg 59:30

So it's interesting that, yeah, during Christ's ministry, Peter, James, and John were given these keys. I guess they needed to learn a little bit about them with the teacher there before they did it on their own.

Kirsten 59:45

Well, there's there's so many times through these very short verses that we're reading today, that order and the order of things has been so critical for the plan and for the development of the plan and for the purpose of our Savior's mission. And it's just really beautiful how you know, it's like this puzzle that comes together that I'm sure our Heavenly Father and our Savior knew. But the apostles probably didn't know. And yet everything's happening in this order that makes it all possible.

Tammy 1:00:21

Um-hm, absolutely. Well, and to go from receiving revelation to now having a witness made sure, to hear the Father's voice.

Greg 1:00:32

It's interesting that that they were afraid. So obviously - we've heard this - "this is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased, hear ye him" with Joseph in the sacred grove. He didn't fall on his face and was afraid at that point in time. He rejoiced because he was just released from some dark powers. So I'm thinking about why would Peter, James, and John be afraid?

Kirsten 1:01:00

What if we change the word 'afraid' for 'awe'? Because sometimes there's experiences we have that we're told about as little children that are how things are, you know. We were spirits before we came to our bodies; when we die, our spirits will return. I mean, there's all these things that we've been told that give us the knowledge that we have. And yet, when we experience some of those things, it's not so much that we're afraid, but maybe that's the best word they had. It's more like, you're awestruck, because even though you know that they're true, and you've been told that that will happen, when they actually happen and you witness them, you just don't have words.

Tammy 1:01:40

Mmmm, um-hm. I'm struck by the footnote for the word 'afraid'. It takes us to Exodus 3:6. And this is the story that we learned last year where the Lord appears to Moses at the burning bush, and Moses has this moment. And in verse 6 it says, "Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God." And what strikes me in that is it shows the humanity in these people, like. they had been believers, they were following the Savior. But there was this moment of but what, but wait, what if? Ah, like, could it be? And I think there is some awe to it, because throughout the Old Testament the word afraid in Hebrew means awe when it says that we should fear the Lord. That actually means we should reverence Him. So I like that play on words right there Kirsten, that I think you're right on both accounts. I do think they were afraid. And, I think they were like, what just happened? This, this holy afraidness.

Greg 1:02:51

What I was thinking that as I started that, and actually both things you guys have said, actually reinforced what I was thinking in terms of helping you understand it. Peter, James, and John had been with Christ for quite some time, witnessed a number of miracles, seen His power. Peter just testified "Thou art the Christ, Son of the living God." But He probably didn't realize how real the living God was. And even though he's been in the presence of this person who is the Christ, when he heard Heavenly Father's voice say, "This is My beloved Son", awe I think is certainly a better word than afraid. He's like, Holy cow, this is amazing.

Tammy 1:03:35

Um hmm. And completely reframes, changes everything that they would have ever believed in their whole life. Like, up to this point it had been faith. We think it's great, He's a good man, so far, so good. But then this, this is right here; this changes everything for these three.

Greg 1:03:53

Well, and how well did they actually understand the difference? That Heavenly Father and Christ were not one and the same, but actually different People, Individuals with the same goals, obviously. So yeah, revelatory for them.

Tammy 1:04:10

I like the word you use, revelatory. Absolutely. So Greg, I love that you brought that up, because now this moment right here that we just studied is the catalyst for the apostles to learn how to use the keys just like you said, and they're going to get a chance to do that in the next segment, and we'll see how it turns out.

Segment 6 1:04:44

.....

Tammy 1:04:44

All right. I did not prep Greg with this question, but I just had this thought and I want to ask him. Greg, what has it been like to give someone a blessing?

Greg 1:04:57

Humbling and powerful. And it's always one of those things where I understand that it's possible. And I understand the mechanics of it. But after going through it and seeing the results, it's still inspiring. Because there's been multiple times when I've had the opportunity, not just the story related earlier, but to give people blessings of healing that have been successful. I don't know how else to say it. The person who was blessed to receive what they were looking for in really miraculous ways. So it never ceases to amaze me. Let's put it that way.

Tammy 1:05:47

How did you learn how to do it?

Greg 1:05:53

That's an interesting question. I mean, I must have seen your dad Kirsten do it before I left for Venezuela. I know we were asked in Venezuela, and I saw companions, right, and then just kind of followed along. Not that it's the same, but one of the things that just still, every time amazes me in terms of blessings are Patriarchal Blessings. Like that the state of in tune with the spirit that a Patriarch has to have to be able to give that kind of blessing is completely inspiring. So it's just a takeoff of that; can you be only the voice of what Heavenly Father wants to happen more than your own ideas? And that's always a struggle, right? Is this just me what I want to say versus can I really let go and say what comes to mind?

Tammy 1:06:54

Well, I wanted to ask that question to you. And I, I'm going to challenge everyone listening to find someone in their lives who can give blessings or has given blessings, and ask them how they learned how to do it, and what that experience is like for them. Because I think it's fascinating to me that we have these keys on the earth to perform these wonderful, powerful blessings of healing or whatever it is the person needs. And you learned how to do it, and you've practiced it. And that is what the apostles have this experience to do in this next story that we want to study. Turn to Matthew chapter 17. And we're going to look at just verses 19 and 20. So they get to learn from the Master Teacher. And when they have this experience, I think it's really interesting. Now we're going to read the story in Mark. But we're going to kind of read the end before the beginning. Because what's interesting is the result of this blessing. The apostles have the chance to heal somebody and they couldn't do it. Verse 19 and 20, they have a conversation with the Savior after and here's what they ask. Kirsten will you read Matthew 17:19, 20.

Kirsten 1:08:04

Yes. Matt 17:19 "Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could we not cast them out?

Kirsten 1:08:12

20 "And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of a mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you."

Tammy 1:08:28

Thank you. Go back to verse 20. What was the reason Jesus gave why they couldn't heal?

Kirsten 1:08:34

Their unbelief in spite of their belief?

Tammy 1:08:38

Exactly, exactly. And it didn't take a lot as He said, even the grain of a mustard seed. I want you to have kind of have that framework in your mind - their unbelief as we go into the story that has to do with believing and what led to this moment with the Savior and the apostles. So let's turn to Mark chapter 9, and we're going to look at verses 17-29. Oh, gosh, this story. This story I love, love, love, love, love it. Ah. So highlight verses 17-29. We're not going to read all those verses, we're going to really focus on maybe two. But here's what we need to know. So, as we start with this story, we have a man and he comes to the Savior in verse 17. And he says, I brought unto thee my son, which is a dumb spirit. Highlight that. And here's what the spirit's doing to this boy. Greg will you read verse 18.

Greg 1:09:29

Mark 9:18 "And wheresoever he taketh him, he teareth him: and he foameth and gnasheth with his teeth, and pineth away: and I spake to thy disciples that they should cast him out; and they could not."

Tammy 1:09:44

They struggled to help. So he's saying, I'm bringing him to You. I need Your help. Kind of like our Syro-Phoenician woman, right? I know You can do this, I've heard You can do this, my son needs help. Greg, continue to read verse 20 for us.

Greg 1:09:59

20 "And they brought him unto Him: and when he saw him, straightway the spirit tare him; and he fell on the ground, and wallowed foaming."

Tammy 1:10:06

At verse 21 He says how long has your son been like this? And the answer is since he was a child. So that tells us a little bit about how he says he's bringing his son. But I always imagined it was a little child. But now I'm like, Oh, wait a minute. He's been like this since he was a child. So I'm imagining a father carrying a grown son. And just the age could be 80; the dad could be 80 and the son could be 60. I don't know. We just know that he's not a little boy. And he comes to Him. So now for me, it's even more destitute, right? It's even his testimony, like the Syro-Phoenician woman, will be borne out of absolute desperation. And Kirsten will you keep reading for us now, and read for us verse 22.

Kirsten 1:10:50

22 "And ofttimes it hath cast him into the fire, and into the waters, to destroy him: but if thou canst do any thing, have compassion on us, and help us."

Tammy 1:11:01

There's your word Kirsten. Highlight 'compassion'. Okay, keep reading for us. Will you please read verse 23.

Kirsten 1:11:11

23 "Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth."

Tammy 1:11:18

And then verse 24, Greg hit it.

Greg 1:11:20

24 "And straightaway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou my unbelief."

Tammy 1:11:31

Even when you read it, why is that so emotional for us?

Greg 1:11:34

Because we're all there. And it's the basis of faith to be told something that you want to believe, but you don't understand how yet. But at least, you know, (Elder) Holland has said, even the desire is good enough.

Kirsten 1:11:52

And for me, the unbelief, "help thou my unbelief", it's just so natural to doubt, even in belief. Maybe you have 80% belief and 20% doubt. But that sometimes we need help overcoming the 20% even though we're 80% of the way there.

Tammy 1:12:17

Yeah.

Greg 1:12:18

Well, isn't it also where we all start? Without knowing, without hearing anything new. So everyone starts in that state, and then getting to the point of faith is an effort and a journey.

Tammy 1:12:34

Yeah.

Kirsten 1:12:36

Well, we were taught to ask questions to learn, right?

Tammy 1:12:38

Yeah.

Kirsten 1:12:38

So we're constantly asking questions and questions and questions. And so sometimes those questions creep in, even though your belief may be strong, or maybe your belief is as small as a mustard seed and just growing. So,

Greg 1:12:51

I love how it says, you know, he had tears in his eyes when he said that I want so badly to do this. But I don't know how.

Kirsten 1:13:03

You know, something just occurred to me in that it's the people who believe that have unbelief I think sometimes. Because if you don't know, it's not unbelief, you actually just don't know. Like when you were learning about the gospel there's a lot of things that you didn't know. And there's so many things I still don't know. But it's not necessarily unbelief. It's just not knowing it. But when you believe sometimes it's the unbelief that creeps in to impact the belief. It's interesting.

Greg 1:13:32

Yeah, it's an opposition thing. It's because you're otherwise unaware.

Kirsten 1:13:37

Exactly, yeah.

Tammy 1:13:38

Yeah. Well, Greg, going off of what you said, in verse 24, he cried out. I mean, that word for me is just, cried out with tears. I mean, every one of us listening have had those moments to crying out to the Lord with tears, help thou my unbelief. And what struck me is when you said from Elder Holland's words, even the desire is good enough. And, and then we go back to the apostles when they say, Well, why couldn't we heal this boy? What was our problem? And He says, Because of your unbelief. But again, maybe it was because of your lack of desire. You don't know what you can do. You haven't asked the questions, Kirsten, like you said. And so let's get you on that path to the point where you desire to heal people and you know that you can. And that is what they'll spend now, from here until the Savior is resurrected, learning how to use the keys of the priesthood, learning how to build their foundation on this rock of Revelation, and the Savior Jesus Christ. So, this is for me, this story is like the quintessential story of all stories, because we've all been there - "help thou my unbelief."

Tammy 1:14:50

Well, thank you, both of you. That's it. That's the end of our episode. Wow, that was so fun. Okay, so just take a minute, gather your thoughts and what is gonna be your takeaway or something that you learned from today's discussion?

Greg 1:15:04

I'm gonna have to steal Kirsten's, although I don't know if you can take your own comment as a takeaway in terms of it wasn't just the Lord's compassion overcame his mission. It was the woman's compassion overcame any other deterrent, including being called a dog.

Tammy 1:15:27

Wow. Yes

Greg 1:15:28

So compassion really resonated throughout this. And we read it over and over again in the Scriptures without knowing that that was coming up.

Kirsten 1:15:35

Yeah. And I think my intention was that even though Peter, James, and John knew who Christ was, and we're learning more and more about Him every day, and that He was the Son of God, how impactful and powerful that is when they heard their Father in Heaven testify about His son.

Tammy 1:16:03

Yeah. For me, I was struck with the significance of the words you chose to describe the rock. And I thought that was pretty cool. Because even you thought it was fun that you're like, it makes a good fort. You bet it does. It's gonna have to make the best fort ever and hold things together when Christ comes. So that was really cool. That was a great discussion. I mean, of course, I have so many notes from all the things you guys shared in my scriptures. That's probably one of my favorite things is writing down what guests say so, and then putting your name next to it so I'll always remember. I mean,

Greg 1:16:35

That's cute.

Tammy 1:16:36

'The crumbs enough to spare,' and 'His compassion overcame His mission'. I mean, so many great quotes from today's episode. So you guys are awesome. Thank you. I love you. That's it. We're done.

Greg 1:16:45

That was a great experience.

Kirsten 1:16:47

Thank you!

Tammy 1:16:47

Bye bye.

Kirsten 1:16:48

Bye.

Greg 1:16:48

Bye, I love you.

Tammy 1:16:50

Oh, well of course, we want to know what you learned. So if you haven't already joined our discussion group on Facebook or if you're not following us on Instagram, go do it. Because it's such a great place to share what you've learned. And we ask questions throughout the week. And you can ask questions too and you can just share with stuff that you've learned, or any answer to the questions we talked about today. And then on Saturday we post a question from this episode. So comment on the post that relates to this lesson and share your answer and thoughts. You can get to both our Facebook and Instagram by going to the show notes for this episode on LDS living.com/sunday on Monday and go there anyway because it's where we're gonna have the links to all the references we used today, as well as a transcript of this whole discussion and a glue-in for this episode, so go check it out.

Tammy 1:17:29

The Sunday on Monday Study Group is a Deseret Bookshelf Plus original brought to you by LDS Living. It is written and hosted by me, Tammy Uzelac Hall, and today our awesome study group participants were Greg and Kirsten Ward. And you can find more information about these friends at LDS living.com/sunday on Monday. Our podcast is produced by Cole Wissinger and me. It is edited by Hailey Higham and it is recorded and mixed by Mix at Six Studios, and our executive producer is Erin Hallstrom. Thanks for being here. We'll see you next week.

Tammy 1:17:56

And please remember those who have unbelief, it's okay, because you're God's favorite.

Kirsten 1:18:02

A new one: Greg's fixing the freezer and the ice maker in the freezer.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai