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[00:00:00] We are one month into this new year, and I have a question for you. How's it going? Are you currently praying about something or are you unsure if it's something you can even pray about? Maybe you're hesitant to pray, or are you unsure of prayer in general and how it works? You know, one of the most important life questions that I have had, and maybe you've had it too, is How do I even get answers to my prayers?

And how do I know if I've received an answer? Well, in this week's come follow me lesson and discussion of doctrine and covenants sections six through nine, we're going to explore the eternal truth of prayers. And elder Holland has taught that prayers. And staying the course of life, we can see the beauty of life unfold for us all because of a prayer.

Welcome to the Sunday on Monday study group, a desert bookshelf plus original brought to you by LDS living, where we take the come follow me lesson for the week. And we really dig into the scriptures together. I'm your host, Tammy Uzelac Hall. Now, if you're new to our study group, Please follow the link in our description, and it's going to explain how you can best use this podcast to enhance your come follow me study.

Just like our longtime listener, Sue Johnson from Spanish Fork, Utah. Hi, Sue. And I'd like to say a cool shout out to Sue's family. Mike, Shauna, Danielle, Jeff, Jonas, Hannah, and Luke. I love the Johnsons. Now, another awesome thing about our study group is each week we're joined by two of my friends. And so it's always a little bit different.

And today is different. And I'm so excited to introduce you to my friend, you guys, you're going to love him. His name is John Fossum. Hello, John. Hello, Tammy. Good to be with you. Oh, I'm so happy you're here. John, John and I met years ago. We did a little interview kind of, I don't even know how you say it.

Your amazing book. Oh, thank you. Thank you. And now I invited John to come on because he's written an amazing book, but that's not the only reason he's here because you guys, he's a seminary teacher. How much do we love that? So John, tell us a little bit about yourself. Well, I was, uh, raised in Georgia. And, uh, came out here to Utah when I was 18 to sort of reset my life and, um, found God really, and decided to go on a mission.

And, you know, went on a mission to the Philippines, came home, married my beautiful wife, Sarah. We, uh, now have five children. We have one grandchild and, uh, I teach seminary at Pleasant Grove Senior Seminary in Pleasant Grove, Utah. And we have lived here for over 20 years now. We love it. So it's been a great ride.

Oh, how fun. Um, John, tell us about your book though, because listen, you guys, I highly recommend it. And here's why John is not afraid to be vulnerable and real in his book. And that is one of the quality I love in people. And so he had me hooked when he's telling, cause he said he found God. He's not kidding.

He really found God. So tell us what's the title of your book. The title of the book is spiritual foundations. And yeah, you know, it started and it's funny. Uh, it started I just, uh, I wanted to say something about becoming more spiritually self reliant, spiritually independent, spiritually stable, because I've sort of identified that through the past couple decades of teaching seminary, uh, a faulty or sort of unstable foundation is sort of the, the, the problem, isn't it?

With all of our issues, uh, individually or collectively as a church. It's sort of this lack of stability, this lack of spiritual independence. And so I wanted to write something about that and, um, came up, you know, spiritual foundations is a common theme that sort of popped up with, uh, uh, the temple renovation for Salt Lake City temple.

And, um, as I thought about how I would organize it, I thought about what my process of coming to know God in my life. And so as I went back and just followed my arrival in Utah when I was 18 and kind of followed my life forward. That uncovered for me organically 10 different foundational stones, uh, to, to sort of build our life upon.

And so, yeah, so the, the book is intended to be used as a tool to sort of assess where we each are. Um, spiritually and offer some, you know, gentle suggestions about what we might be able to do to strengthen ourselves spiritually. Oh, thank you. And what I like about it is that it's how you created your spiritual foundation, but it wasn't an overnight event.

It took a long time and you're very still happening, still happening for sure. But at age 18 it took some time and I love that. Very cool. So anyway. Okay. I'm so excited to have you on. We are going to have a good discussion today and I've asked John to help me teach about prayer. So I have pen and paper in hand cause I'm going to be taking some notes.

So for those of you listening, if you want to know more about John, you can find his bio and his picture and information about his book in our show notes. And you're going to find those at LDS living. com [00:05:00] slash Sunday on Monday. So grab your scriptures. And I'm just going to give a little shout out to my really good friend who's on a journey this year.

It's called her year of prayer. Her goal is to understand prayer. So I really hope this lesson helps you and you know who you are. So let's dig into Doctrine and Covenants chapters six through nine. All right, John, right out of the gate. Tell me what's one thing the Holy Ghost taught you as you were reading these chapters.

Yeah, that was a tough question. You gave me, by the way, you can't study section six through nine and then say, give me one thing. Man, it was But um, I, I'm, I'm ready to say something and um, I don't know, I may or may not overstate this but I really do believe that these sections contain the answer to all of life's toughest questions and potentially the solutions to life's most complex difficulties.

I said it. Oh, you did. Tell me why you believe that. Because I think, uh, kind of related back to the book that I just finished, at the core of being, um, solid spiritually is becoming spiritually self reliant, but at the, at the core of being spiritually self reliant is the ability to commune with God. I mean, I mean, that's it.

If I can't commune with God, I am not going to develop spiritual self reliance. I'm not. I believe that too many of our experiences, our spiritual experiences in the church are indirect. And what I mean by that is we, we're listening to someone share with us their experience and we feel the spirit like we feel it, but it's indirectly.

Does that make sense? Kind of through them, through their experiences, through their testimonies, whether we're listening to the prophet. Whether we're listening to, uh, uh, a Sunday school teacher, whether they're listening to this podcast, whatever, our parents, friends, trusted loved ones, too many of our spiritual experiences are indirect or through others instead of just directly from God, undiluted.

And so, to sort of springboard this discussion, I focused on an answer to your question. What's one thing I learned? Doctrine and Covenants 6 7. This verse, it reads like this, Seek not for riches, but for wisdom. And behold, the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto you, and then shall you be made rich.

Behold, he that hath eternal life is rich. I love this phrase or this category, the mysteries of God. And now I'm, I'm, uh, well. Aware that the mysteries of God can mean so many different things, but usually when we think of mysteries of God, we think of like deeper, right? Sort of, uh, Unknown truths that only the faithful sort of acquire, you know, sort of this nebulous.

Or like things you can't really answer. Like I remember as a seminary teacher, a student said, did Adam have a belly button? Correct. Mystery of God. I don't really know. Yeah. Like crazy weird stuff. Sure. In this context, I want to redefine mysteries of godliness. As having a knowledge of what is real and true, real and true, basic truths about God's character and the nature of his plan, basic core realities and truths that often get lost.

In the spiritual and intellectual chaos of the world, right? Oh, I love your definition of that. So a mystery instead of being something sort of unknowable. It's, it's this basic undiluted truth. And for me, these days, clear undiluted truth is a rare commodity. Sadly, I really, it really is. It's hard to find it.

It's hard to experience it. I'll give you one reason why I think it's so hard to find. I think we're so concerned about being right. As members of the restored church, that we lose track of the fact that that's not really the purpose. The purpose of this whole thing is not that we're right. The purpose of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the restoration is so that we can come to know what's real and true.

And I think there's a difference. You know, does that feel different to you? It's not about me being right. It's just about me knowing for myself what's real and true out there in the universe with God and his plan. Does that make sense? Oh my goodness. Yes. Because as you were speaking, so I highlighted in, I have a color this year that I'm using every time I learn an eternal truth.

It's my highlighting eternal truth pen. And I highlighted mysteries of God and I wrote to the outside what is real and true. And then it hit me what is real and true about God. Yeah, like what you just said, I had never considered mysteries of God that way, where it really is what is real and true about him.

That's what we want, and that will be unfolded unto me, and then I'm rich if I understand who God is and how he operates in my life and how I can talk to him and go to him in prayer. [00:10:00] Wow. That is rich. Well, you said it. There's no way we're going to understand and unlock the power of prayer unless we understand accurately the nature and character of God.

Oh, I love it. And so, so mysteries of godliness, when you understand the mysteries of godliness, or if we were to paraphrase that, like through the spirit, if you really come to a knowledge of what is real and true about God and his plan, your life is rich. Your life is rich. It's just different, man. Yeah.

Because all religions and most people have a lot to say about how things really are and how about how things really will be. But that famous scripture in Jacob 4 13, you know, it says the spirit speaketh the truth and lieth not. Wherefore it speaketh of things as they really are and of things as they really will be.

And I will say that when I as an early seminary teacher, I was unconsciously preoccupied with being right. Yeah. When I learned that it wasn't about And having all the answers. Yes, 100%. When I became comfortable with saying, I, uh, I don't know. And when I realized that it's not about being right, it's about just kind of learning what's real and true.

It just opened up a whole new world of discovery for me. And I think that's what the Mysteries of Godliness refer to. I love this next person, uh, Doctrine and Covenants 611. If thou wilt inquire, thou shalt know mysteries which are great and marvelous. And I just add a little side note, which are great and marvelous in their simplicity and freedom giving clarity.

Therefore thou shalt exercise thy gift that thou mayest find out mysteries, that thou mayest bring many to the knowledge of the truth, yea, convince them of the error of their ways. I think our convincing comes. Because once I've tapped in to this sort of clarity, right, this godly perspective, I, I, I exude a, a stability and a clarity to which people are attracted.

Have you noticed that about people? We're attracted to people that are stable, that, that have a serenity, that have a stability, a settledness to them. You know what I mean? And too many of us are not settled because I, I, I'll come back to this. I just think too many of us. Our spiritual foundational experiences, you know, things we base our testimonies on, they're indirect.

You're required indirectly through someone else or something else, instead of just straight to the source. Which is God. And so good. I don't know. Well, and, and everything you've said has set up our discussion so perfectly because I think sometimes one of the greatest mysteries we have is about prayer and how does it work and how do we, how can we know all the questions, how do I receive answers to my prayers?

Can I pray for this? Right. But I like how you said, if we understand the mystery, what is real and true about God. Then it makes prayer instinctual and it makes us go, okay, I can do this. So, and, and you're going to the Bible dictionary definition, which is beautiful there. Love that one. Great quote. Great quote.

Okay. So let's do this then in the next segment, we are going to just dive into prayer. And here's one of my favorite things. When I told you the sections we were going to be discussing, you immediately texted back. Here's your quote. I love love in caps. You said, I love, love that scripture block. So in the next segment, I'm going to ask why you love love section six through nine.

Segment 2

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Okay, John, tell us why you in all caps, love, love this scripture block. Take us through one of your favorite lessons. And I asked him to take us through one of his favorite lessons that we're not already going to cover because we're covering a lot. So I am so excited about this. I got my pen and paper.

Hit it. Thank you. Wow. I mean, and I do, I love, love it because as we alluded to in segment one, like I really believe that these sections contain the key to, uh, just a higher quality of life, uh, to the highest quality of life. And it comes through spiritual clarity, through acquiring spiritual self reliance.

And, uh, becoming spiritually independent. Um, I think, let me think. I want to go with, when I say spiritual self reliance, let's maybe start with a definition. I'm referring to a type of spiritual independence that allows us to transcend. And that's a word I want to write a book called transcend. I really do.

And just about transcendent thinking and, and what allows us to rise above the mortal thoughts and opinions of the world. And allow us to live on sort of this higher plane of godly clarity and see things as he sees them. Part of my regular prayers is, um, that I, I pray to see things as God sees them.

Because only then will I see them as they really [00:15:00] are. And as they really will be. And so I pray, I teach teenagers. So I pray regularly to see them as God sees them. Because if I just see them as like teenagers. Yeah. It's just tough to teach, honestly. But when I see them as God sees them, my goodness, they're, it's a, it's a sacred opportunity and privilege to teach.

Right. Yeah. And so spiritual self reliance allows us to transcend the things that really disturb us the most. And I think Joseph Smith is a great example of someone who enjoyed a great degree. of spiritual clarity, spiritual self reliance. And, um, he knew how to communicate with God. He was spiritually self reliant, I think.

Um, uh, one more maybe definition or sort of like a qualifier. When we say spiritual self reliance, it's kind of a misnomer because the only way to become truly spiritually self reliant Is to rely exclusively on God. Right? Right. And so when we say spiritually self reliant, I don't want any of us to think we're going it alone.

We're going it Jesus. We're going it with Jesus connected, tethered, yoked. That's what makes us. Self reliant or independent. Independent from every other source but God, but completely dependent upon God. And so, only through surrendering completely to God can we become truly free. You know that beautiful concept.

So, I think these sections teach that just beautifully. And, um, I'd love to, if, if, if you'll let me read just a couple quotes from, uh, our current prophet, President Nelson. Oh, please do. I knew you'd allow it. I just, I love his first talk. And I think the first talk he gave as a prophet in 2018, in April 2018, which is revelation for the church, revelation for our lives.

I see this as sort of the, uh, divine thesis for his prophetic ministry. And I, I received that impression as I listened to it. Like this is, this is. This is my, the ministry I have for this man. And if you listen to him, you're going to, you're going to learn some things about the importance of receiving revelation throughout his ministry.

So in that top, pray in the name of Jesus Christ about your concerns, your fears, your weaknesses. Yes, the very longings of your heart, and then listen. As you repeat this process. Day after day, month after month, year after year, you will grow into the principle of revelation, quoting Joseph Smith. Does God really want to speak to you?

Yes. You don't have to wonder about what is true. You do not have to wonder whom you can safely trust. Through personal revelation, you can receive your own witness. All right. So there's paragraph one I wanted to share. Just think of how beautifully prophetic that is. I mean, all the people that you encounter, Tammy, that I encounter regularly in my life and my spheres of influence that come in are like in a spiritual crisis.

I don't know what to believe. I heard this and this and this about the church. I heard this and this and this, or President Nelson said this, or Elder so and so said this, or whatever. And they're just, they don't know what to do with it. I just want to come back and be like, you don't have to wonder, you don't have to have these questions.

Have you gone to God and asked? It almost feels like nephi to his brothers. Remember? Yeah. When he asks me like, how are you guys asking me these questions? Have you not asked God? And they're like, God doesn't talk to us. Don't you love that answer? Well, he doesn't make things known to us like that. You know?

Like, what do you mean? Like ? Sure. He does have, he tried to talk to him lately. Right? I love their excuse in that. Yeah. I mean, say it's just like sometimes I, I don't, I just don't know what to say other than. Look, I, I, sometimes I want to say I can't help you. Yeah. Sometimes literally I want to say you have to, this is your path and the only person that can answer this for you is God and I am not him, but I will point you to him.

I can tell you some things that have worked for me in opening that sort of channel of communication, but in the end you've got to learn your language with God. Another paragraph from the same talk. Regardless of what others may say or do, no one can ever take away a witness born to your heart and mind about what is true.

And then this challenge, I urge you to stretch beyond your current spiritual ability to receive personal revelation, for the Lord has promised that if thou shalt seek, thou shalt receive revelation upon revelation, knowledge upon knowledge, that thou mayest know the mysteries and peaceable things. Isn't that a great phrase?

Yeah. Because when we, when we know the mysteries, which let's redefine it, the basic poor truths About how things really are with God in [00:20:00] this plan, when we know those, we feel peace, that which bringeth joy, that which bringeth life eternal. And then this great quote that he quotes from Elder Maxwell, Oh, there is so much more that our Father in heaven wants you to know.

As Elder Neal A. Maxwell taught, to those who have eyes to see and ears to hear, it is clear that the Father and the Son are giving away the secrets of the universe. Amen. I mean, I just love it. And so this, this sort of, if, if, if we so many, everybody wants to transcend, everybody wants to rise into that clarity above the clouds, but another president Nelson quote, I plead with you now take charge of your testimony of Jesus Christ and his gospel, take charge of it.

And then he says this work for it. And in another context, remember he says the Lord loves effort. I think coming back to this Oliver Cowdery context in these sections, where God was like, you, what did you, did you think it was just, I was just going to just like reveal all this to you just because you asked, like it requires work.

It's a process. And so, um, uh, let me see. I love this. This is the last one I'll share from president Nelson. He says in the coming days, and this is back to that same talk, revelation for the church, revelation for our lives. And tell me this isn't prophetic with like AI, deep fakes and everything that's out there these days.

You never know what is going on and who are saying what or what's real and true. He says this in 2018, In the coming days, it will not be possible to survive spiritually without the guiding, directing, comforting, and constant influence of the Holy Ghost. My beloved brothers and sisters, I plead with you to increase your spiritual capacity to receive revelation.

Thanks. It's so prophetic to me and so beautiful and um, I think he's right on. And so I have spent, you know, my life since I was 18. So however old I am right now, I don't have to die of old age, do I? I've spent those decades since then trying to, you know, connect, learn his voice. What is it like with me?

What does it feel like? What are the thoughts and the feelings that accompany it? But again, back to our, too many of our experiences are indirect. I want to give a metaphor that maybe we can remember. And I call it baby bird syndrome. And you think of baby birds in a nest, right? And they just have their mouths open and they're just, they're just whining for more.

They're just like, give me more, give me more, give me more. And the bird comes, mama bird. I want to liken us to the little babies and then liken the bird to two different things. First one, I think traditionally, and I don't think it's healthy. We view the bird as the prophet or the apostles or the church leaders, and we're like, it's your job to just do all the heavy lifting.

You just tell us what to believe. You tell us what the answers are. You tell us how to live our religion. You just do it. You do it all. We farm it out to them, right? And President Nelson clearly has taught us that is not, no, no, no. It's, it's your responsibility. You work for it. Okay. So I'm going to help. I can point you to Jesus.

I can give you some core truths and principles that guide you along the way, but this is, this is your journey. So you go. And so I like to see the bird in the healthy scenario as the Holy Ghost, where we kind of go straight, our direct experiences with God. I think of the woman with the issue of blood.

You remember this beautiful miracle where it's like what set it apart? Remember James E. Talmadge is the one that said in Jesus, the Christ that what set this apart was. That she, she brought the miracle upon herself through faith without Jesus even knowing it, right? It was like she tapped straight, straight.

Yeah. And Jesus, Jesus was almost like, whoa, look what you did. Yeah. Good for you. Thy faith hath made thee whole. And so I just, I just think that's beautiful to think of baby bird syndrome and just be like, all right, I'm going to start having direct experiences, direct experiences. And so, um, I don't know what God says to Oliver.

I think that he says to all of us, this is Doctrine and Covenants 8. 1, Oliver Cowdery. I mean, maybe we just say this to anybody. So insert your name there, Tammy Hall. Verily, verily, I say unto you, assuredly is the Lord liveth, who is your God and your Redeemer. Even so, surely shall you receive a knowledge of whatsoever things you shall ask in faith with an honest heart.

And we'll develop that more in further segments in this, uh, particular show. But. Um, and then finish in 8, 11, ask that you may know the mysteries of God. Take it to the bank. And it's my testimony that as we do that over time and with consistency and honesty and openness [00:25:00] and he talks and when he talks, life gets better.

I love that you ended with 11, especially that ask. Everyone highlight the word ask us. You may know the mysteries of God. We kind of made ask an acronym for us this year, which was Joseph asked, meaning he was always seeking more knowledge. He just constantly wanted to know more. And it's so beautiful in these sections.

That's what every section is. It's I need to know more knowledge. And I like how you just taught us that beautiful principle, everything in the quotes from our prophet, because, you know, Joseph, he is young. He's only 22, 23 years old. So young. And here he is learning these core life lessons that the Lord needs him to know to be a prophet from here on out.

And we go back to section three where he learned you're still chosen. I know you messed up and you can repent. And now he's not only teaching Joseph, but as well as the witnesses like, Oh, and by the way, You guys can ask and you can know. And so everything you taught us was so true. So thank you. Thank you for diving into that and leading us into these verses of scripture.

And I absolutely put my name above Oliver Cowdery because that is for every single one of us. It's cool that you had us do that. Okay. That was a great discussion. Thank you, John. So in the next segment, then I'm going to share with you why I love, love this scripture block, but probably not all caps. John, you get the all caps, love, love, but I do love this scripture block and we're going to do that next.

Segment 3

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All right, John, I want you to do something. Grab a highlighter. And for those of you listening, if you have a spiritual truths highlighter, grab that whatever color you're using and let's go to doctrine and cabinet section six. When we're going to highlight a word that is repeated. Often. And I just kudos to whoever wrote the come follow me lesson because in the manual for this week, it had us focus on this word that is repeated 16 times in these two verses.

We're going to highlight them. Okay, here we go. We're going to go to verse three and it says, behold, the field is white already to harvest, which you're probably thinking that might be it. Cause it's repeated a lot, but it's not. It goes on by saying, therefore, who so desireth high highlight the word desireth in chapter six, verse three, then go to verse eight.

And you're going to see it twice in verse eight. So highlight desire both times there, then turn the page, go to verse 20 and find it in verse 20 and highlight the word desires. Then verse 22, verily, verily, I say unto you, if you desire. Further witness. Highlight it there. Then verse 25, I grant unto you a gift if you desire of me.

Then verse 27, it has it twice. Desires a desire. Okay, now go to doctrine and covenant seven, and I'm gonna give you the verses. It's in verse one. John, my beloved. What desire is thou? Verse three in the middle? Because thou desirous this. Then verse four, you're going to find it twice desired of me, but thou desiratist.

Then verse five, this was a good desire, but my beloved has desired. And then verse eight, it's twice. So find those desires and desired. Okay. Now this was so cool because I did this deep dive into the word desire. I wanted to know like. Why is it repeated so often? And why is it important in these conversations about prayer?

And John, you did such a good job of setting us up, especially when you quoted the Lord loves effort. So if you have desires, those of you listening, if there's something you're really hoping for, or you need help with, you have this desire to get help or ask God. I love elder Maxwell. He defined desire in a 1996 talk.

He said, desire denotes a real longing or craving. So if any of you are in a position right now where you have a real longing or craving, let's discuss this word. So to the outside of section six or section seven, anywhere you want, put desire in all caps somewhere on that page. And I'm going to give you a cross reference put Luke chapter 18 verses one through eight.

And let's go there. I love cross referencing variables, man. Don't we love a cross reference as a seminary teacher. Okay. Luke chapter 18 verses one through eight. And Carol sister, Carol F. McConkie, she referenced this story in her talk about prayer, which was so cool. And so I'm like, I got to figure out what this parable is about.

So here we go and get a pen. You're going to want to circle some names in here that are important. So it's a parable, first of all, that the savior is teaching to the people and he's teaching them about prayer in verse one. He says that men ought always to pray and not faint. So that's going to be the purpose of this parable to teach us that are listening right now, we should pray always and not faint.

And then here's the [00:30:00] story. He says in verse two, there's in a city, a judge. So circle the judge right there. And it tells us about this judge. He feared not God, neither regarded man. So clearly he doesn't care about anybody, but himself. And he, he knows the right way. And then in verse three, we meet a widow woman and she belongs, she's a part of the city and she comes to the judge saying, now highlight what she asks for avenge me of mine adversary to the outside.

I just wrote an all caps help. Like I need help of something I can't do on my own and you're the only person who can do this for me. So then verse four says, but the judge, he would not for a while. But afterward, he said within himself, though I fear not God nor regard man yet now highlight verse five, because this widow trouble with me, I will avenge her lest by her continual coming.

She weary me. Okay. Pause there for a minute. John sum up what the judge is basically saying about this woman. I got to get you off my back. So I'm going to do this for you just to shut you up basically. I love it. That's exactly what I thought. Okay. All right. I say shut you up because it's rude and he was rude, which is an important detail too.

I think in different probably did say shut up. Yeah, absolutely. He's a rude judge. But you're absolutely right. He's like enough already. Okay. I'm going to give you what you ask because you're wearing me. Then we have verse six and the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge sayeth. Now this is interesting because the Lord is comparing parables is the point of a parable is to compare himself or the, or God to the situation that's going at hand.

So that's interesting. But then he says in verse seven, shall not God avenge his own elect highlight this, which cry by day and night unto him, though he bear along with them. So I underlined which cry by day and night unto him. And I drew a line up to in verse five where she was continually coming and wearing him.

There's the connection right there. But I love this part at the end of verse seven, where it says, though, he bear along with them. The NIV translate that as, will he keep putting them off? Will he keep putting them off? Will God keep putting us off? No. Right here. The parables teaching. He wants us to weary him with our prayers.

That is exactly the point of this parable. Sister McConkie, she so perfectly sums this up because Sister McConkie points out why we need to weary the Lord with our prayers. And John, will you read this quote from Sister McConkie, please? Got it. Prayer is essential to developing faith. When the Lord comes again, will he find a people who know how to pray in faith and who are prepared to receive salvation?

I think it's so neat that she connected that to this parable, basically saying, when the Lord comes again, will he find a people who have wearied him with their prayers? Am I? And then it made me think, wow, am I wearing the Lord? Cause sometimes I don't go to him cause I feel like, oh, I'm wearing the Lord.

He's going to get so sick of me, blah. But John, what's the point of the parable? What's the message is teaching us then in connection with the word desire. Yeah. And you're blowing my mind. I'm my, I'm going in all these different directions. I just love it. Share it with me. I just had this insight, reading this beautiful quote from Sister McConkey as well, that like, um, if, if I, if I'm praying to God and I'm weary him and I'm trying to find the equivalent of ave me of my enemies, and that would be sort of like, get me out of this power of Satan and this fallen world.

Mm-hmm . In essence let's, becomes a prayer of come back, Ooh, come back to this earth. When will you come again? And my wife and I have talked often about how we just don't. We don't pray enough for that. Like, come Lord Jesus, come, like, get back here, avenge us. You know, it's just another way of saying we need help.

We need you and we can't wait for you to come. And so just pray and pray and pray. And when he comes back, will he find a people that are, that have just been begging for him to come back or, or not, you know, and um, if, if what, what we desire over time, we will receive. If a big, mean judge will finally give in, then a God who loves us more than life itself, he'll surely grant us our desires.

Oh, John, I love how you connected it to the second coming because in my mind, I'm thinking of all the things I've ever prayed for and desired, truly desired and wearied the Lord with. If I got the answer I was seeking, it would bring me peace. That was my goal because I want to get rid of the yuck that I'm experiencing.

And I just want to feel peace. But really I love what you, I love what you just taught us because ultimately Christ is peace. And if we desire for him to come, he will bring us the peace that we want. And you're [00:35:00] right. Are we praying that the savior comes? Are we praying for the second coming to happen? Oh, that's a great thing to desire and pray for.

Let's weary the Lord with that prayer. Shall we? That is awesome. So I just, I love this idea and I'm so grateful we were able to study the word desire because 16 times in two verses, there must be something about that word when it comes to our own prayers. And then really let's weary the Lord with our prayers.

Let's wait. He's asking us to in this parable, weary him. And if you're ever caught up in this, well, then how do I know if it's something I should pray for? And how do I know if it's, if it is worth wearing the Lord with, you know, you could put a cross reference again, section 18 verse 18. It states that Anything you are asking the Lord for, you can actually say, is this something I should ask the Lord for?

And the Holy Ghost will let you know. It'll give you a yay or a nay. And I've shared a story before. I, that is absolutely true. There was something I was praying for and I said, After weeks of not getting an answer, finally, I just said, should I be praying for this? And as clear as day, the spirit said, nope.

And I was like, okay, I'm done then. And I changed my prayers. It really is true. So consider the things you're designing, but I love the new challenge from John. Let's weary the Lord with our desires and prayers for Jesus to come, because I can't think of anything better. That's a great prayer. I can't either.

Wow. John, thank you. Thank you for your input. So what we're going to do then is we're going to continue this discussion about what are our desires. Are we wearing the Lord with our prayers? And in the next segment, we are going to start studying how we receive answers to our prayers after we desire. And once that happens, the very next thing we need to do is we'll find out in the next segment.

Segment 4

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So John, you can appreciate this story because before we even began recording, John and I were talking back and forth about times when we are asked to speak. And there's many times as seminary and institute teachers that we get asked to go and speak and we love it. Like we love doing it. It doesn't make us nervous.

I mean, okay. Kind of nervous, but right. But it's our thing. We love it. And so a couple of weeks ago I was invited to go speak to a steak youth group on a Sunday night. And I don't know if this has ever happened to you, John, but you already know what you're going to talk about. You have your talk written.

I've got the slides, I'm ready to go. And I'm driving. And it took about an hour and a half to get to the location. And as soon as I get off the freeway, this thought comes to me. It says Share Doctrine and Covenants section 98 verse 2. And I was like, that's not even part of my talk. That's ridiculous.

That's so far in left field from what I'm talking about tonight. So as I'm driving closer to the church, I have that thought again. Just share section 98 verse 2 before you begin. I can't shake it. So I get there, they have the opening song, opening prayer, musical number, then they introduce me and I stand up and I just know I have to share this.

So let's go to section 98 verse 2. The fact that I could even remember it. I knew it was from the spirit because there have been times I've had to go find this and I can't remember where it is. So section 98 verse 2. And I said, before I begin, I just felt like the Lord needs me to share this verse. I don't know who it's for, but I'm going to, here we go.

Everyone in your scriptures and the kids got their phones out and turned in their gospel app to section 98 verse 2. And here's what it says. Well, you actually need verse one and then verse two, but verse one says, fairly, I say unto you, my friends, fear, not let your hearts be comforted. Yay. Rejoice evermore.

And in everything, give thanks waiting patiently on the Lord for your prayers have entered into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth and are recorded with this seal and Testament. The Lord hath sworn a decreed that they shall be granted. And I said, whoever needs to know this, God has heard your prayers. He's hearing your prayers, they're recorded.

And then I love the title he's given the Lord of Saba oath, which is a Hebrew term Saba oath means army. It means he's the Lord of an army or a host, which might be kind of weird because we like the Lord or God of peace. We don't want to a Jesus who fights, but I love that. My friend, Carrie Muilstein taught us that you have to believe in a Christ who is a warrior.

Because warriors can defeat. And so if you want him to be a prince of peace, he also knows war and he knows how to get to peace. And so I just said, there you go. I don't know why I needed to share that, but someone who needs to know that God's hearing your prayers. Okay. So then I give my talk, then it's over.

People are coming up to say hello. And this sweet young woman comes up with tears in her eyes and she says, that was for me. I needed to know that God was hearing my prayers. And I said, Oh, you know, I hugged her and I was like, that is, thank you for sharing that with me. I didn't know why I needed to share that.

And then she says to me, I've been praying whether or not I should go on a mission. [00:40:00] And I said, Oh, well, what are you asking? And she says, I'm just asking God, should I go or should I not go? And I said, no, here's the lesson you need to learn sister. That's not what you should be praying for. And her eyes got big.

And then I said, no, go to doctrine and covenant section nine, verse eight. So let's go back there. Let's go to section nine because I said, once you desire something and once you're starting to pray and you're going to weary the Lord before you even begin to pray. One of the most important things you have to do is found in section nine, verse eight.

And John, will you read verse eight for us? I will. But behold, I say unto you that you must study it out in your mind. Then you must ask me if it be right. And if it is right, I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you. Therefore, you shall feel that it is right. Okay. John, tell me when you just read that, why did you put emphasis on the word?

Then study it out in your mind. Then why did you do that? Well, I think, I think a good place to start answering that is this, the verse right before verse seven. You have supposed that I would give it unto you when you thought, when you took no thought save it was to ask me. I mean, that's the whole point, right?

That's your context with this young woman where she was like, Should I go or not? Yeah. Tell me what to do. But again, right, this, this kind of speaks to how we've been at least acculturated to think that that's just what you do. You just, you just ask and God just does it. When you have a question, you go to a leader and they just tell you, right?

It's like we've, we've regularly farmed out this process to others and, uh, God is, you know, inviting us to take responsibility of this process and really jump in. And so, um, I don't know, I think that like, I love this, this verse, right? Behold I say unto you, study it out in your mind. I think expecting God to just give whatever we ask for without first having to look, first learn something or experience something is, I was trying to think of an equivalent and it might be equivalent.

Okay. So, uh, I like to exercise and, but the day of the week I hate the most is leg day. And um. What do you mean leg day? Um, go to the gym and I just work my leg. Of course I don't know what leg day is. Gotcha. Okay. I'm sorry. No, I'm speaking my language now. You totally are. Now I know what you mean. You're at the gym and it's leg day.

I always do it on Monday cause it's like, it's like a mountain. It's like Everest to me because there's a certain leg exercise, the back squat. You've all seen it, right? You just throw a barbell across your shoulders, load it full of weight. And you just squat down and you come up, right? And it's, it's brutal, but it's, it's, it's so important in fitness.

And so every time I get to the squat rack, I'm just like, Oh, well, if I can just, I try to imagine it being done. Yeah. I thought this might be the equivalent of me coming to the squat rack, not wanting to do it. Looking to my friend who's much stronger than me and saying, Hey, I tell you what, get under there.

Let's load you up. Do the squat. Count it for me, right? It just doesn't work that way, dude. It doesn't work that way. I have to get under that bar and I've got to squat. I've got, I've got to do this exercise and it's, and it's brutal. We go to God, we ask him to lift something for us. He comes back to us.

With a, I don't know, what do we call it? A divine workout regimen. Yes. He says, okay, you want to squat that? No, I'm not just going to squat it. But here's the way you can develop the strength to get to the point where you can squat that weight. Right? And so I like it, you know, coming back to, you know, President Nelson about receiving your own witness and your own testimony.

We have to work for it. Um, I, I, I like Doctrine and Covenants eight, three and four, and I'm going to, I'm going to substitute a word and I'm going to flip it, you know, substitute out a word here, but first let's read verse three. It says, now behold, this is the spirit of revelation. Behold this is the spirit by which Moses brought the children of Israel through the Red Sea on dry ground.

All right, Tammy. Do you mind reading that verse again but now instead of spirit, which happens twice, put the word process in there and just see how it feels. Okay. Now, behold, this is the process of revelation. Behold, this is the process by which Moses brought the children of Israel through the Red Sea on dry ground.

That is so good. Yeah. Like for you, for you personally, like how did that, and I'm just interested, how did that change the feel of what's being said there? Anything? It did. Because one of the things I was thinking as I was reading that verse, I love that story in the old Testament Jesus didn't show up and stand by Moses and tell him what to do and then grab him by the [00:45:00] hand and say, okay, like we would with little kid, he didn't grab Moses his hand holding the stick and, and do it with him or for him.

He, Moses received the impression to do what he did the same way all of us do. It was a process. It was absolutely wasn't immediate. He didn't get a letter from Jesus that said, here's what you're going to do. It wasn't easy. And it was one step at a time, right? It wasn't, it wasn't just one revelation. It was, I'll tell you what, I'll tell you how to get over that Ridge.

All right. Now you're at the shore of the red sea. All right. Yeah. Here's the next thing, right? Here's this great teaching from, uh, elder Renlund from, uh, October 22 conference, a framework for personal revelation. You remember that talk? He says, few of life's destinations are reached via a nonstop flight.

We should recognize that personal revelation may be received line upon line, and precept upon precept that revealed direction. And B and frequently is incremental. And, um, I, I was trying to think of a, a scriptural example of this and one of my favorite scriptural examples. Is, um, 1st Nephi chapter 3, when Nephi and his brothers go back to get the plates, okay?

And I, I want to get your thoughts on this application, Tammy. So, obviously there's a lot that we don't know that could have happened in the white space of this story. So we have to kind of just take it for what's written on the page. 1st 10, 1st Nephi 3. It came to pass when we had gone up to the land of Jerusalem, I and my brethren did consult one with another.

I think that's an important detail. It does not say they consulted with God. They might have in the white space, okay, but we don't have that detail. It specifically says we consulted with each other and look at their great idea. Verse 11, we cast lots. This is just by chance. Who's to do this? I don't want to cast lots.

All right. See you, Laban. So layman, uh, whatever it's the law. Are you, how do you cast lots? Can you explain that to me? I know, right? It's crazy. They have sticks. It's the weirdest thing ever. I still don't understand. They explained it. And I'm like, yeah, I'm going to draw straws. A letter. Layman bubble gum, bubble gum in a dish.

Right. That was, that was, that was their great idea. Okay. Well, layman goes back. We know what happened. Attempt number one, complete fail. They almost die. Okay. So they're like, huh, attempt number two, again, this appears to be looking just at the text. Nephi's idea. There's no evidence that he went directly to God and was like, all right, well, that was a total fail.

Hey, help us out, God. It seems like, it seems like they may have, you know, God led him to Jerusalem and maybe they just assumed that, okay, we sacrificed getting here now do the rest, God. Yeah. That's just not the case. Nope. And so Nephi's like, Oh, I got an idea. Let's do this and go get all our stuff. We know what happened there.

Right. Uh, total fail. They almost died. So the, uh, Laman and Lemuel are mad. They beat up their younger brothers. Um, and then Nephi is like, um, all right, he has sort of like a potentially tide turning realization. Now look at this. First Nephi four verse two, look at who he references. He goes, therefore let's go up, but this time let's be strong, like unto Moses.

It's not a cool reference with, with, with what's happening, Doctrine and Covenants about the process of revelation. And I love that because for me, it seems like, you know, Moses just went step by step. We're not relying enough on God. I think we just assumed he'd do it when we got here, but that is not the case.

Right. All right. Let's rely on God. Let's lean into this process and rely more on God. And so he does. And he, we've got the famous verse, right? That's on thunder street. I was led by the spirit this time, not knowing beforehand that things. Which I should do, and we know the end of the story, it was a success, right?

And so, I don't know, um, I think, I, I, my mind went to Elder Holland's Wrong Roads. You know that beautiful, uh, video the church put out? A story about him and his son in southern Utah. They're out exploring in the desert, and, uh, they're, they're driving along, and on their way back, they come to a fork in the road.

They're not sure which way to go, and so they pray. And, um, they both feel inspired to go one direction and they go that direction and it's not long after there that it dead ends. So they turn around and go back and take the other way. And the son, uh, other Holland says, the son finally asks, I don't understand what just happened.

I thought we felt good when it was, we did feel good. And it was important that we went down that road first and saw it end so that we could turn around and pursue this course all the more confident. [00:50:00] Wow. So. This is what he said, I'm paraphrasing because it was a video, but he says, Albert Hollins says the, sometimes the only way to get from point A to point C is by going through point B.

It's a process that oftentimes requires a lot of effort on our part, and it's not always just like straight success. Yeah, um, and I think that's super important to understand is to see prayer as a process, to see revelation as a process. Lean into that, get ready, don't panic when things don't pan out exactly as we thought they would as soon as we thought they would.

Just keep leaning into it and trusting in God and letting him, and move your feet, right? Move your feet, move your feet, keep going forward. And man, I've just had experiences that have taught me that that, that leads to a. Oh my goodness, John, that, that right there, what you taught us is such an answer to prayers right now for me, because there's something I'm praying about and I've studied it out and I know it's right.

So I'm going forward, but the different ways that this has to turn out. Are not working. Like I'm, I've tried point a and that didn't work. I'm on point B. I've already got plan C in my mind because I think B's not going to work. I, I am so glad you taught that to us because you're right. Sometimes we study it out and, and what you shared from elder Holland is perfect for me because if I had gone with plan C, I always wonder would have wondered if plan A or B would have worked out.

I know that's not going to work. So, but I'm not giving up because I do feel like, and that's my prayer. If this isn't right, Emily father. You got to let me know, which we're going to get to in a minute, but I really appreciate when you said, and I wrote this in my scriptures next to section eight, when you had us go there.

I think this is awesome that revelation isn't always a nonstop flight because I have done a lot. I'm doing a lot of layovers right now, but I do know that I'm going to get to my destination. I do know that has been the, yes, exactly. The, the, the answer is do this. And now you got to figure out how you're going to do it.

Well, Elder Holland said sometimes takes, you know, going through point B to get to A or C. Let's say in order to get from A to Z, sometimes you got to go through B, C, D, E, F. That Q will get you. Oh my gosh, John. That was awesome. Okay. So let's do this. Then in the next segment, we're going to talk about then how do we know if it is right?

Or if it is wrong, we've studied it out. The Lord loves effort. We're, we're, we're in one of those layovers or those stops. Um, that was such a fun discussion. So in the next segment, let's find out how do we know if it's right or if it's not that next,

Segment 5

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let's go to doctrine and covenant section nine verses eight and nine. And many of us will be familiar with these verses because we often wonder what in the world does this mean? So John, without even reading it in verse eight, if you know, it's right, what will we have? What we feel? A burning in the bosom.

Yes. Now, John, talk to me right now. If you have a student who says to you, I have never had a burning in my bosom before, how do you answer that? What does it even mean? Cause I don't think I have either. Yeah, right. I mean, okay. So I'll tell you how I start. Usually I, I, I try to identify sort of a good starting point.

I remember when I, so I, in, for about the first five years of my career, I had to have Multiple jobs. I guess I still do. You know how that is. It's seminary teacher, but I taught, I taught, I taught persuasive writing at BYU and I'm always thinking of like, all right, so what's a good logical starting point in order to get us to a clear answer.

And, um, I think for someone who asks, you know, how do I know if I've received it? I don't know if I've ever received an answer. Like this, I would start with just the reality, and I'm going to Elder Holland here with his conference talk, April 2024, Emotions of a Hidden Fire. This is when he spoke, just as he came out of his convalescence, right, from his sickness and things like that.

He says, It is for reasons known only to God. Why prayers are answered differently than we hope, but I promise you they are heard and they are answered according to his unfailing love and cosmic timetable. So I just think it's so important for us to understand before we start thinking about and stressing out about have I been answered?

Have I been heard? Um, is this even working? We need to have faith in and really rely upon the reality and truth. That all of our prayers are heard and answers. And now we just need to learn how he speaks to us. Um, I, I love, and I think I'll hit this now, I didn't know if I would hit it, but Doctrine and Covenants, section one, verse 24, God is explaining how he speaks [00:55:00] to his servants, um, prophets and apostles, but it's true for all of us.

Look at this verse and tell me, how does he speak to them? Do you have it there, Tammy? I don't even have it open. Such a good one. It says, Behold, I am God and have spoken it. These commandments are of me and were given unto my servants in their weakness. After the manner of their language that they might come to understanding.

Oh, that's good. Let's hit it. Right. We've got to learn. So look, I can tell you how God speaks to me. I can, I can tell you my language with God. I know how he speaks to me. I have no idea how he speaks to you, Tammy. I have no idea how he speaks to anybody else. Again, I can give some basic parameters. I can give you, I can tell you about some commonalities that exist from different, uh, when people tell me how God speaks to them.

But in the end, this is your, uh, your relationship with God and you've got to develop your own relationship and way to speak. And so a common thing that I, I use as just an example is if God reveals truth A, whenever that is. To President Nelson versus Elder Uchtdorf, these are two very distinct personalities.

President Nelson, renowned surgeon, right? He's going to, when he delivers truth A to us, it's gonna maybe be laced with, um, medical metaphors or things familiar to him. Uh, Elder Uchtdorf, of course, is going to include what? Some metaphor about airplanes, right? Things like that. These are, this is all part of the language that's unique to these individuals.

And I have unique aspects of the language of the Spirit as it speaks to me. And so I would say to this individual that it's a process not to give up. And I would maybe go to section 9 where God is speaking to Oliver. Remember Oliver tried to translate, did a little but really didn't do very well. And was really disappointed.

And so God says this, this is section nine, verse one, behold, I say unto you, my son, because you did not translate according to that which you desired of me, and it commenced again to write for my servant, Joseph Smith, even so I would that ye should continue until you have finished this record, which I've entrusted unto you.

That's the phrase I had, that you should continue. Okay. So don't stop. Keep going. Verse three. Be patient, my son, for it is wisdom to me and is not expedient that you should translate at this present time. Translation at this, at this point, you think about it, I mean, the process of translation is kind of foggy in terms of how it happened with, with the Book of Mormon, right?

We've got some great essays and things about it on the church's website, but, um, translation really becomes in the end for Jozef. Um, the ability to discern God's voice, right? His language in his mind and his heart, however it happened for Joseph to the point where Joseph could discern the content of the plates with no help other than just, just pure revelation, right?

And, and the scribe would write, think about that. That's crazy, right? So he's learning the language. And so I would say, keep doing what you're doing. You're making more progress than you think just by engaging in this process. It takes time to figure it out. How the spirit speaks to you. Yes. I mean, it just does.

And your language is going to be different than mine. And so, I would, I would make a distinction. Between burning in the bosom and stupor of thought, right? Tell me about that. Yeah, so we bring these two. So one of these two things we like, this is a simple little model. One of those two. If it's right, it's that easy and it's just that.

If it's right, burning in the bosom, if it's wrong, stupor of thought. Now go away, run along. I like to sometimes back away and try to see things more generally. You're like, all right, so what is the principle behind burning in the bosom? What is the principle behind stupor of thought? And sometimes when I see it more generally, I can more easily find a personal application for me.

Right? Because it sort of frees me up to kind of move around a little bit in that space. Burning in the bosom to me is to speaks to a type of clarity, peace, goodness, and confidence. For me, that's a big part of the Spiritist language to me. I have to tell you, my daughter yesterday was telling me about seminary.

And I said, Oh, tell me about your lesson. And she said, I don't know, mom. We, we learned about Joseph Smith and we read this verse of scripture and it's what God said to Joseph. And she's like, mom, I don't know what happened, but when we read that verse, I got chills. And, and I got goosebumps on my arm and I was like, really, tell me more about that.

And she's like, I don't know. I just know that we read that. And when I read those words, mom, I just got chills. And I said, that's how the [01:00:00] spirit speaks to you. I've never had that. I said, I have my good friend has my friend Holly. She always, when she feels the spirit, she'll be like, I just got chills. Or my friend, I've not been that way.

So I'm like, isn't that cool. You just learned how the spirit speaks to you. Right? I think you're right. She's learning the language. And the language, let me point this out for anyone wondering, cause I used to think this, the language doesn't change. Like I remember I was praying about who. I was praying about being married.

I was engaged and I was engaged to be married and I just wasn't sure. And I remember my area director came to visit me and I told him I was engaged. He was shocked. And I said, but I'm not sure if I'm supposed to marry him or not because I, I don't know, I'm confused. I'm not sure about it. And he said to me, well, how does the spirit speak to you when it's right?

And I told him exactly how the spirit speaks to me. And he said, Tammy, Why would God change it up now on one of the most important decisions of your life? God doesn't change the language. He's not going to speak Spanish to you when all he's been doing is speaking English. And I was like, and then he said to me, you're having a stupor of thought.

And I felt peace from my head to my toe. That's how the spirit speaks to me. And so I recognize that in that I was, listen, everyone learned that lesson now. Cause I was much older. It took me a while, but I love it. The language doesn't change. He'll speak to you in your own language, but that stupor of thought it's can, it's, I wonder though, I wonder if so burning in the bosom can be man can manifest itself physiologically, but, but not for your daughter felt it physically.

Right. But there were people in that classroom that didn't right. And I, I think that another version of burning in the bosom is intellectual or a sort of logical, like, Oh yeah, that makes sense. Right. And so I, when stupor thought would be the chaos, jumbly confusion, things like that, or a sick feeling, right?

But either way you got this revelation goes back and forth between mind and heart, right? Mind and heart, mind and heart. So what are these two categories? Because not everyone feels physically. spiritual answers. It's more of a mental intellectual clarity and processing. So I, I differentiate them by saying God feels right.

It feels good. Versus that makes sense. It seems clear. Meaning like, like the heart versus the mind and then super thought, man, sickness or just confusion or anger, or those are not fruits of the spirit, right? And you want them to match. That's what I love about section eight, verse two, when he says, behold, I will tell you in your mind and in your heart.

by the Holy Ghost, which shall come upon you. Both places have to match. So if it, if it makes sense in your brain, your heart will be at peace. And if you're burning in your heart, your brain will be clear. Like it, they have to match. And if they don't, that's a stupor of thought, because when I was engaged, Listen, it made sense.

It made sense on paper for sure. Nobody had asked me, I was in my thirties. Uh, but my heart was like, ah, I don't know. I'm not sure. I mean, they just didn't match. And I loved learning that they have to match and when they don't, that's a stupor of thought. So. Oh, my gosh. This is so conflict, chaos, anxiety, fear.

These are not fruits of the spirit. Let's read this quote from Elder Scott. Cause this was really fascinating to me that we just talked about the two ways and there's one more way, which is so cool, but receiving answers to prayers. I'll read the first paragraph and then John will read the second one.

And this is so cool because we've already talked about. Um, burning a bosom, stupor of thought, but then John gets to talk about another way to receive answers to prayers. That's awesome. Here we go. Some misunderstandings about prayer can be clarified by realizing that the scriptures define principles for effective prayer, but they do not assure when a response will be given.

He will reply in one of three ways. First, you can feel the peace, comfort, and assurance that confirm that your decision is right. Or second, you can sense that unsettled feeling, the stupor of thought, indicating that your choice is wrong. Or third, and this is the difficult one, you can feel no response.

That's the, that's the kicker. So in that next paragraph, he says, what do you do when you have prepared carefully, have prayed fervently, waited a reasonable time for a response and still did not feel an answer? You may want to express thanks when that occurs, wouldn't be my first response, right? For it is an evidence of his trust.

When you are living worthily and your choice is consistent with the Savior's teachings and you need to act, proceed with trust. As you are sensitive to the promptings of the Spirit, one of two things will certainly occur at the appropriate time. Either the stupor of thought will come, indicating an improper choice, or the peace or the burning in the bosom will be felt, confirming that your choice was correct.

When you are living [01:05:00] righteously and are acting with trust, and I love this last part, I know I do too. God will not let you proceed too far without a warning impression. If you have made the wrong decision, kind of coming back to the wrong roads metaphor from the other. All. Absolutely. Okay. So here's what we're going to do then in our last segment, because if you find yourself in that space, Where you haven't received an answer either way and the Lord trusts you, then, oh, Satan, he's going to come in with something to completely ruin the whole experience.

And we'll talk about the devastating effect of what that is in the next segment.

Segment 6

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All right, John, I asked you to think about this question and come prepared to answer. What do you fear? Do you have any fears? Have they changed over time with age? Uh, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Um, so you probably didn't anticipate this, but man, I had like some existential profound moments as I pondered this question.

Uh, what, what do I fear? Tell me about it. What are my fears? All right. So I'm kind of embarrassed to admit that my first impression, honestly, I sat down and I said, what do I fear? My thought was, I can't think of anything. I don't, I don't fear people. I don't fear death. I don't fear, uh, for the, uh, salvation of any human soul.

I'm just being honest. I really don't have no fear or anxiety or on that. Um, I was like, wait, I got to fear something. And when I did think about it, first, first context, here's the setup doctrine and comments nine, 10 and 11. He's talking to Oliver again. He tried to translate, but in any failed. Uh, God says in Doctrine and Commandments 9 11, it was expedient when you commenced or when you started, but then you feared when the time has passed.

So before I tell you what I fear, I'll paraphrase this verse. God's kind of saying to Oliver, if you had understand more clearly, this process of revelation, like Joseph clearly was really good at, you may have been able to translate, but your lack of understanding of this process resulted in you fearing blank, right?

So I had a blank came to my mind and I pondered, what did he fear? What was it that Oliver feared that prevented him from tapping into that clarity? And I thought to myself Fear of not being enough, of not being enough, of not being up to the task, you failed at something and that has led you to a debilitating fear that you are not enough.

And my deepest fear, I have identified it officially and ready to go on record, is that I will not be enough for someone who loved me. Is that like, is it, was that too existential and deep than you were looking for? Not at all. Is that too vulnerable and like personal, but, but I will lose the love and the affections and the loyalty of those I love the most in my life.

That's my greatest fear to be clear. I don't like my marriage is great. My family's wonderful. They're, they're the source of so much of my joy. It's not like there's anything that's sort of any like pending disaster. But when I get to my core, I see that my biggest fear is of not being enough for someone else to love.

And my friend, She Know Me Best, will, will, will verify this. Sadly, I have this belief that if anyone gets to know me, Like, really? They won't like me. Isn't that interesting? That's fascinating. Isn't that sad? That's sad. Oh yeah. Isn't it fascinating? And I'm sure Freud would have a lot to say about it.

that's a whole therapy session. Sure. I actually, I actually went to a counselor once, a good friend of mine, and I asked him to psychoanalyze that. And you know what he said? He, he put his hand, like in his, his face and his hand kind of left off to the side. And then you looked back and you went, yeah, I got nothing.

Sorry, John . I was like, really? I'm paying you for this session and that's what you give me. We went on to have a good discussion, but I'm still thinking about this kind of stuff, like, why? And so, it really is sort of a worth thing, in a lot of ways. And so I was praying about this, Candy, and I was like, God, so one of my practices, like yours, is I like to look for miracles and parables of Jesus that might be used metaphorically to answer a question or use as comparisons or something.

And so I sat and pondered this and prayed on it. A miracle didn't come to my mind, a parable didn't come to my mind, but an [01:10:00] interaction of Jesus's came to my mind. And the interaction, you'd have these experiences, it's so invigorating. The interaction came first to my mind and I didn't know why. And I was, but it was clearly from the spirit because another part of the language for me of the spirit is it's an unsolicited thought in terms of like, there's no way I, I didn't have that idea.

I did not have that idea. That is not logical. It doesn't. It just pops out of nowhere. And I thought of his interaction with the woman at the well. Okay. And I'm like, what in the world? How is, how is, how is this related? This single woman who had been, you remember, divorced and or widowed. What? Five, six times?

She had quite a few lovers. Yeah. Multiple times. Tell me she didn't struggle feeling like she was enough completely. She struggled so much with feeling that she's enough that she didn't realize that the savior of the world is that right in front of her. You talk about, you talk about losing our sense of value as a B, being a roadblock to connecting or seeing, here's a good example, right?

She didn't even know it was him, but this woman is who Jesus goes to first to reveal himself as the messiah. And I just want us to kind of just sit in long after this episode, ponder the power and the purpose and the profundity of that. But this woman was, for all intents and purposes, empty. Her fear of not being enough is probably what had driven her to the arms of the man she was with at that point, who was not her husband, Jesus reveals, right?

She's desperate to feel loved. Like she was enough for just anyone in this world, right? And so, I think it's beautiful that Jesus comes, and he's like, who should I reveal myself to? I don't know, in a way that illustrates My mission, my, my power, my, my purpose. And he goes to this poor, devastated woman and, uh, says, what did he say?

I've got water to give you that if you were to partake, you will never thirst again. Like you, this is step one, having a relationship with God. You've got to know your value. Look to me and you're going to experience something. And I always think if I look to Jesus, what do I see? And I, and I, every time I look to Jesus and my mom, I see him directing me to the father, the parent of the universe.

And when you come into that presence spiritually, you know, you're enough. You know, you're enough. You know that. You are loved. And that is step one. That is foundation stone. Kind of number one is to acknowledge your higher power, have an experience with him. I think now Covenants 6, 34 through 37, it makes more sense to me now, like He says, key phrases, I'm just kind of jumping around, fear not, I do not condemn you, look unto me in every thought, doubt not, fear not.

And then this as though offering evidence of his love, right? Behold the wounds which pierce my side, Prince of the nails in my hands and my feet, be faithful. And I added something for me because the spirit added, be faithful to me because I am ever faithful. To you. Yeah. Hey, for me, this is it. Like, this is it.

Like, um, I think the main fear that keeps us from connecting to God is just this fear that we're not enough in his eyes and other guys, or we're just not enough. We're not smart enough. We're not righteous enough. We're not good enough. We're not beautiful enough. We're not handsome enough. We're not strong enough.

All these things. I'm not being enough. And that fear is, is pretty devastating when it comes to our connection with God. John, I'm so grateful you went in that direction because now Doctrine and Covenants 6 verses 21 through 23 makes so much more sense to me. Well, you quoted 36, 36, which the Lord is saying to Oliver, look unto me in every thought Doubt not fear, not doubt, not that you're enough fear, not.

So it's almost like the Lord's predicting. I know you're going to be afraid. I'm telling you right now before it happens, fear not. But even before he gives him that counsel, he gives them a special moment. In section six, Joseph Smith is giving this revelation to Oliver. Verse 21 says, behold, I am Jesus Christ.

See the story you shared. So fitting the son of God, I am the same that came unto mine own and mine own received me. Fear not. I am the light which shineth in darkness and the darkness comprehended that not, but you're right here. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Oliver, I'm going to put Oliver right there. If you desire a further witness, cast your mind upon the night that you cried unto me in your heart that you might know concerning the truth of these things.

Did I not [01:15:00] speak peace to your mind concerning the matter? What greater witness can you have than from God? And I wonder if Oliver at that moment went, wait, wait, I didn't tell Joseph about that. How in the world? And he's, he's reminding him. Remember how I speak to you? That's my language with you. I'm going to give you peace right there.

He's giving him the key to doing this translation process. I will speak to you with peace. So no right there. We've already learned how you, how you feel the spirit and how you know when it's right. And then we have the word desire so many times right there. And then he gives them that warning. So by the way, look unto me in every thought in peace, doubt not fear not.

So I'm so grateful you went in that direction because I think you're right. I think he worried, like, am I worthy of love? Am I going to be good enough? Oh my gosh, what if I mess up? And he probably will. Joseph did my. Yes, he will, but that fear, that's what gets us. And so anytime we're in that space of waiting for an answer or studying it out, Satan is there to just creep in with a, yeah, but God, you're probably not enough and you're probably going to mess up.

And he puts all these fears in our mind. In fact, this quote from elder Holland is probably one of the best quotes on this cause I love his wording. And I, let's just read this cause it's so good. It's in his talk cast not away, therefore your confidence, which is what you know, everyone listening. I quote from it all the time, but this one's so appropriate.

John, will you read this for us? In the process of revelation and in making important decisions, fear almost always plays a destructive, sometimes paralyzing role to Oliver Cowdery who missed the opportunity of a lifetime because he didn't seize it in the lifetime of the opportunity. The Lord said you did not continue as you commenced.

Does that sound familiar to those who have been illuminated and then knuckled under to second thoughts and returning doubts? It is not expedient that you should translate now, the Lord said in language that must have been very hard for Oliver to hear. Behold it was expedient when you commenced what you feared and the time is past and it is not expedient now.

After you have gotten the message, and I love this part, Damian. After you have gotten the message, after you have paid the price to feel his love, hear the word of God, go forward, don't fear, don't vacillate, don't quibble. Don't whine. I like that last one. Don't whine. I whine a lot too. I do too. Tell me, John, I want to know from your own life experience, has there been a time in your life where you have paid the price to feel his love and hear the word?

And, and what has that looked like for your life to receive answers to prayers? Yeah. This is another question that you threw at me that I was like, Oh, I, I, I don't, I'm reluctant to share like big miraculous ones. I want to, but no, but then I don't want to share something so like benign that it's not meaningful.

And it's just like, well, nice middle ground. And I prayed again about this. And uh, the one that came to me was, uh, the process I went through. It's ironic. You said this earlier, uh, uh, Knowing that if I should get married or not, I hadn't met my wife. Uh, I knew some things. I knew she was beautiful. I knew she was funny.

I knew I liked to be with her. I knew she was real. I knew that we shared values. So I did the work right when I started going on dates with her and getting to know her and I was praying my guts out because I really started to like her and I was like, Henry father, I don't need to know if I need to marry her yet.

I just need to know if I should continue forward. And I always got a peaceful feeling. That was it. Just a piece. So I kept going and um, it got serious. Right. And I'm like, Oh my goodness, is this a. Is, is, is this the one I'm going to, you know, in a moment when I hit you like, well, am I really going to spend eternity with this person?

Sure. It's intense. Right. And, um, I was like, okay, I'm, I'm going to go to the temple. We both went to the temple and we were like, you know, this is getting serious and we need to find out. And the way I felt. Was I needed to go and ask her father, Heavenly Father, for if I have his blessing to marry his daughter, you know That's how I looked at it.

I framed it in my mind so I went to the temple went through a session got into the celestial room and I was I was scared to pray because I was scared that the answer was gonna be a distinct No, and I really liked her. Oh sure, but I was open. I was open I was an open vessel and I bowed my head and I said Heavenly Father You know why I'm here, but I'm going to pray the words and ask the question.

I really love this girl, Sarah. Do I have your blessing to marry her? I'm not asking if she's the only one on planet earth if I should marry. I'm asking, do I have your blessing to marry this one of your daughters? And, and Will, will you be with us? Do do I have your [01:20:00] blessing? And I closed my eyes and just sort of, and, and I got scared because honestly, I had prayed a couple other times about a couple other girls.

And both times I felt immediately sick to my stomach and filled with anxiety and I waited kind of cringed for that. And the coolest thing happened to me. We've distinguished in this episode, in this, you know, uh, episode here, the difference between mind and heart both happened to me. I felt something physiologically, like goosebumps, like joy, whatever that feel, it is incredible in my chest, goosebumps on my body and a clarity came to my mind like I had never felt before and this is what it was.

I pictured my wife and me together. Forever. And it was like my brain for a moment could grasp the concept of eternity and I felt complete peace about it. It was the most distinct, all encompassing kind of answer I've ever received. And guess what? Good thing I got that because about three months into marriage, I was like, maybe I made a mistake.

I'm an idiot and I don't like being married. And you know, yeah. And seriously, Tammy, I was praying and guess what God brought to my mind. I said, God, did I make a mistake? And he said, what he said to Oliver, cast your mind back on that day in the celestial room. Are you telling me that was fabricated? And there was just no denying it.

I was like, and my fears were washed away in an instant. And Sarah and I were having an argument or something, but I just went back to the apartment, got on my knees and begged forgiveness for her from her and said, I'm sorry, I'm going to try to be better. But I mean, so there's my experience. Oh, John, thank you.

Thank you. You just summed up perfectly in your own experience, which is an indirect experience, but I will tell you, I directly felt the spirit and I love that too, because that to me means everything we taught today was true. I felt the spirit. So thank you, John. That's the end of our discussion. Thank you.

So, well, thanks for having me. This is what we do then at the end of every discussion. I asked my guests to go back through everything we studied today. And one of the things in the come follow me manual is that it asks for teachers to ask their students. What's an eternal truth that you learned? And that can seem a little daunting.

So rather than thinking an eternal truth, just what is something you learned or reminded of that was true? Maybe a note you took, like I've got notes in here, so I'm going to share something that you taught me that I loved. Um, is there anything, a truth that you learned from the Holy Ghost? Yeah. Um, very distinctly.

And it was just in my preparations for this episode, one of the Verses that I didn't mention, but I loved and it just was brought to my mind powerfully was Luke 11, 11. And, uh, what came to my mind through this episode is just trust this reality and here's the reality. It's Jesus speaking. If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him, sorry, you're asking me to give spontaneously a spiritual thing and I get emotional when I do that.

And, uh, and repair, but. If a son asks bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? Or if he asks a fish, will he for a fish, give him a serpent instead? And of course the answer is no, no father would do that with a mortal father would never do that. Our heavenly father will surely give us.

In time, all that we desire in righteousness, all that we ask for all that we seek if we just keep at it. Thank you. Wow. Thank you, John. And for me, I was brought back to how we started section six verse seven, the mysteries of God. I always thought that they were the crazy things when really it's just.

What is real and what is true about God. And when we know that it makes prayer, just like the definition of prayer, instinctual. And then I loved that revelation isn't always a nonstop flight. That was a good reminder for me. So thank you for teaching us. Thanks for joining me today. Thank you for teaching me.

My pleasure. Discussion. Thank you, John. Thanks for all your preparation. That was really good. Oh, thank you. Well, what did you learn or what were you reminded of? Go join our group on Facebook or follow us on Instagram and share it. And you can even ask questions, which are so fun to read and answer. And then at the end of the week on a Saturday, we are going to post a question from this episode.

So comment on the post that relates to this lesson and share your thoughts. You can get to both our Facebook and Instagram by going to the show notes for this episode at ldsliving. com slash. Sunday on Monday, and it's not a bad idea to go there anyway, especially for this episode, because we're going to have links to all the references, which were many as well as a transcript of this whole discussion.

So go check it out. The Sunday on Monday study group is a Deseret Bookshelf plus original brought to you by LDS living. It is written and hosted by me, Tammy Uzelac Hall, and our incredible study group participant was John Fossum. And you can find more information about [01:25:00] this friend at LDS living. com slash Sunday on Monday, our podcast is produced by Cole Wissinger and me. It is edited and mixed by Cole Wissinger. And our executive producer is Erin Hallstrom. Thanks for being here. We'll see you next week. And please remember, oh, please remember that he hears your prayers because you are his favorite.