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[00:00:00] The Doctrine and Covenants is a book of questions and answers. And the restoration came about because of one question. What if Joseph Smith hadn't read James 1, 5? And what if he hadn't asked? Our discussion of Joseph Smith history Chapter one verses one through 26 gives us the historical background of how it all began and how grateful we are for a God who loves questions.
And he won't even make fun of us. When we ask one, welcome to the Sunday on Monday study group, a desert bookshelf plus original brought to you by LDS living, where we take the come follow me lesson for the week. And we really dig into the scriptures together. I'm your host, Tammy Uzelac Hall. Now, if you're new to our study group, please follow the link in our description, and it's going to explain how you can best use this podcast to enhance your come follow me study just like my friends, Mitzi, Abby, and Jeff Rogers. I love you guys. Okay. Now here is my favorite thing about this study group because each week we're joined by two of my friends. Now, sometimes we have one friend, which we had recently, but today I have two and I love these two people so much.
So we have our, our. Classic. I'll introduce you in a minute. Called her the goat, the greatest of all time. Sharon Staples. Hi, Sharon. Shalom. Hello. Shalom. And our guest that we get to have on today is Clark Davis. Hi Clark. Hello. Hello. Okay. This is so fun. Clark and his wife were on a couple of years ago and you know how this works, everybody.
I sit down, I look at what we're going to be studying and I pray who should be the guests. And it just was so clear. It's supposed to be Clark. with Sharon. But Clark, how do we know each other? Go way back, Tammy. Tammy, you were you were my high school seminary teacher at the old SHS high school. Go Eagles.
Go Eagle Skyline High School. Oh my gosh. And Clark was one of my favorites because he was funny He has the best sense of humor. Very wry and he is a formidable force He would just walk into the classroom and you knew he was there but he also had a strong testimony of the gospel like you could be silly and You knew you knew God lived and that like cuz you're here.
So Thank you. I appreciate that. Very kind words. Um, never thought my seminary teacher would be telling me that, uh, 20 plus years later. So it's a, it's a blessing. And, you know, it's funny you say that to me, if I could just interject, because we, my family, there's a lot of us, uh, my wife's side of the family, we had this, these questions, like when we're all sitting around and someone said, who was influential on your testimony of the gospel?
And there's two people who have been influential on my testimony. That whole journey and you are one of them. Um, you, you made the gospel fun, but you, you also told me, cause I think I mirrored your personality in high school where it's like, I want to have fun. Like I'm going to have fun. So whether you like it or not, but also it's like the gospel is real.
And I think Jesus laughs a lot. And so it was really good. It was very influential. You were one of those people. I was like, yep. Tammy had an impact on me because. You did. Oh, Clark. I'm crying. I think that's across the board. She has an impact on everyone. Thank you. Thank you so much. Oh my gosh. My heart.
Well, I knew I had to put Clark with Sharon because many times after Sharon's on a podcast, Clark will text me or send me a message and say, that Sharon nailed it. Sharon has such a way of just sticking it to the man. Wouldn't you say? A hundred percent. I mean, Clark, don't tell her, don't tell her that I paid you under the, under the table.
Don't tell her that. No, there was no transaction. It only took a widow's mite. It's okay. Okay. So I think this will be a fun discussion. And especially because these two people who I love and trust are actually going to teach. I knew Clark could do it. So I've been looking forward to his segment. He's scared, but I am.
He's going to just knock it out of the park. I have no doubt. And how fitting we get to just talk about solely Joseph Smith history chapter one, just verses one through 26, 26 verses that are packed. And I cannot wait to just unravel them with you too. I think there's going to be so many cool things we're going to study.
So If you want to see what my guests look like and read their bios, go find those in our show notes. You can find them at lvsliving. com slash Sunday on Monday. So everybody grab your scriptures and something to mark your scriptures with. And we are going to dig into Joseph Smith history, chapter one, verses one through 26.
Okay. You two right out of the gate. What did the Holy ghost teach you as you studied these verses? What stood out to you, Sharon? I default to you. Okay. Thank you very much. That's very kind of you, Clark. Well, um, the first thing that stood out to me was that I knew that there were other versions of the Joseph Smith story.
And so I read those and, uh, I thought, okay, you know, what, what are you going to, what are you going to believe? And so I prayed about it. [00:05:00] And what I, what the Holy ghost taught me was, Don't be afraid to look outside the box, but remember that the scriptures are canonized and that the history is true. What he said after lo these many years, after all of the other versions and all the people who interjected their interpretation of his vision and after they did all of the note taking and erasing and redoing and et cetera, et cetera, that those 26 verses actually Are eternal and true, and that's what I need to stick to once I have studied everything in detail, once I have thought outside the box, return to what I know is true and the Holy Ghost said, said, Sharon, the truth is in those 26 verses, so, um, I, I just ignored the other 14 visions, uh, and, uh, and, uh, and just reveled in what he said.
And it was, um, it was a reconfirmation of my testimony of the prophet. So that was so sweet. Oh, thank you, Sharon. That's powerful. Yeah, it was powerful. And Sharon mentioned the other versions. We're going to talk about those in today's episode. So thank you for setting that up. It's going to be powerful.
What about you, Clark? Yeah. Well, I genuinely appreciated the other versions. Um, we'll talk about it later, but I remember the, the video that you could go down and watch those different accounts. I love we'll talk deeper about that, but that was, that was a pretty powerful thing. Um, it actually reaffirmed the truth again, but for me, I hope this is not too far off of what you asked for, but I didn't know what to call this.
So I used my friend, Mr. GPT to help me kind of like conceptualize my idea, but, um, divine retrospection was this eternal truth, um, or like continuity of a covenant, like continuity of covenants, but it's very, like, specifically, it's like when prophets seek or shown visions in the past, right, like past events by God to understand his purposes and then apply those lessons from the past to the current circumstances.
So here's what I mean by that. Like, it came to me weeks ago when I was studying, um, listening to the podcast about the brother of Jared. And his specific thing like you, I can't remember who was on. I apologize. I should have written it down. Um, but like, he was at a crossroads of sorts and he was sitting on the banks of the sea, just trying to understand what was his next move and he knew that it was the time to leave, but needed guidance.
Right? So he was stuck. So he finally went to prayer. And at that moment, the windows of heaven opened as we read in Ether. And the cool thing about that is, is that we can draw strength from that because in Genesis 6, 16, we read about another person who learned about windows, but we know that windows isn't really the word it's Zohar.
And you have this, this parallelism of divine retrospection between Noah and the brother of Jared. They both needed specific windows to open the windows of heaven to open in order to get windows into their life. And Joseph did the exact same thing. And I'll talk about this a bit more in my section, but he found himself at a similar crossroads.
He was confused and needed guidance. He was proverbially sitting on the banks just as the brother of Jared was. But what he did is he went back to what he knew. And he opened up the book of James, who also had the exact same problem that Joseph was having with this ability to accept Jesus. And so that was an eternal truth that like, if I get stuck on my proverbial banks, I just need to go back.
And I need to look at who, who's in the same situation that I'm in and I can find the exact guidance. And ultimately what it is, is it's the covenant. It's like, I promised to do this and you promised to help me. So let's work together anyway. That was the long and short of it. But I think that was a heart.
I was an eternal truth that really just resonates with me because it's how I find myself getting answers. Oh my gosh, Clark. I wrote that down, divine retrospection. And here's what's so cool is that all of the instances that you just cited, they all needed light or more light, more knowledge. And you said that Hebrew word is a higher, which we talked about, which is a light that shown in the arc.
That is, Oh my gosh, you just taught me so much that the window is light. They all received more light. Wow. That's cool. Thank you. It's wonderful. Thank you. Stop it. Stop it. Wow. No, that's good. That's [00:10:00] really good. Okay. So there you go. That's only segment one. You guys, we've got five more segments of goodness to talk about.
So here's what we're going to do in the next segment. Let's dive into Joseph Smith history one, one through 26 and find out what you guys listening are going to learn from these verses and what my guests learned. We'll do that next.
Segment 2
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So this is straight out of the come follow me manual. And I just had to use it because I liked it so much. And here's what the come follow me manual says. The purpose of Joseph Smith's history was to put us in possession of the facts because the truth about Joseph had been distorted. So we are going to dig into the facts.
We have possession of them in these verses and Sharon, I so appreciated your comment when you said you read these verses and they're true. One through 26 is true and it reaffirmed your testimony of that. So I asked my guest to read verses one through 26 and my question to you is, what are some facts that strengthened your testimony of his divine calling?
And then give us the verse and we can read it. And let's go through some of these facts. What I wrote down after reading it, um, was the simplicity of his asking. Oh, that's good. It was not a complicated, okay, God, this is what I want to do. I want to start a new church and I want to do that, that, that, that, that, that, that.
He said, Father, I need thy help. Which church should I join? It was so, so simplistic. And the answer was simplistic. God, the Father said, this is my beloved son, hear him. I mean, he did not go into a lot of scripture quoting that we have originally, but it's the simplicity of the tenderness and the sincerity of the Prophet Joseph, 14, so sincere, just, you know, by himself in the grove.
I want to know which church I should join. That's all he wanted to know. 18 million members later. Jesus. You know, it's just, it's so amazing. And then the simplicity of the answer. So he approached him in simplicity. And I think that's all we need to do. We don't need to be complicated in our approaches to our Heavenly Father.
Just Father, this is where I am. This is what I need. And that's it. And he'll answer Sharon. I, I appreciate so much when you talked about the simplicity of his asking because verse 14, let's read verse 14. That might be the most beautiful description of the simplicity. Were you thinking that to Clark? I was going to go.
That's where I was going as first 14. Oh, read verse 14 for us then. Okay. So in accordance with this, my determination to ask God, I retired to the woods to make the attempt. It was on the morning of the beautiful clear day early in the spring of 1820. Okay. It was the first time in my life that I had made such an attempt for amidst all my anxieties, I had never as yet made an attempt to pray vocally.
Yeah. Why did you go right to that verse, Clark? Well, because you, the question you asked, like all my anxieties, when I think about this and then what Sharon was saying, a 14 year old boy, the, the, the thing that I learned, I did not know this silly that I didn't, but he wrote this many years after, right at 14 year old boy, didn't know he had anxieties.
But a grown man, grown Joseph knew he did and it was this ability to go back and diagnose himself for who he was at that moment. There's a, there is something so powerful there. That is what the covenantal journey is. It's being able to walk into a temple when you're 18, 19 years old, not fully knowing what you're doing, but then when you're 40 or 50, you look back and you're like, I am so glad that I, with all my anxiety and all of my questions, all of this weirdness, right?
I say that with tongue in cheek, but it is. I now see who I was. And if I didn't have that, I would have been in trouble. I, I don't know if that's what it was, but what it took, sorry, that was a little bit of a ramp. But what it took was it took a 14 year old boy who didn't know he had anxiety just to go and ask.
And that gets back to what Sharon, what you were saying, the simplicity of it. It's just, I just needed an answer. And sometimes I think that's, that's Christ's call to us, which is become like a child, shed what you think is a problem, right? Anxiety is it's everyone's got it even profits go into the woods and try to open yourself up vocally.
I don't know. That's what touched me. Sorry, I cut you off. Yeah. Oh, I thought that was so good. And what stood out to me is when he says he'd never before tried to pray out loud. I mean, trying something new that he'd never done. [00:15:00] just the simplicity and in his asking, like, well, here we go, I'm going to try it because you just wonder what his religious experience had been left to that point.
What did the prayers look like? He knew how to pray the ability to pray vocally out loud his first time for himself. Maybe that's what he's saying for myself for the first time. Wow. Cause his family had known heartache. I'm sure he, they had on loan sorrow and Sharon's going to teach us a little bit about that later.
I'm sure they all knew. And I think it's the, the benefits of prayer. Cause they probably prayed a lot for the welfare of their family. But for him on his own, one of his brothers died. Like the first brother or something like, yeah, there's in fact before Alvin or something. Yep. There was an infant son.
Yeah. Sharon will tell us that. Yes. They knew sadness. Yeah. But this is, this is personal. This is his own question. So I love that. Well and that he believed that he believed he would get an answer that comes from his upbringing. And from reading the scriptures with his family, we'll talk about that. He trusted and believed in a God, not knowing fully who that God was because of all the contentions with all the religions at the time.
So he, he was thoroughly confused. Not only which church to join, but not quite really sure, um, what kind of God he, he, you know, anxieties, whatever. But he, he did it. And it was, it was heartfelt and simple and, and tender and all the things that made him who he is, was. Wow. I'm thankful you just said that because in my mind, I realized, yeah, the God that he would have believed in wouldn't have been a father figure type God.
The God he believed in was angry and mad and wanted them to repent. And you couldn't approach God like that. He loved you and cared about you. Your questions. And in fact, isn't it later when he goes and tells the pastor about his experience? Yeah, he's like, you know, the God doesn't talk to people. You don't get revelation anymore.
That's how it works. And right. So yeah, I like how you set that up. He believed in a God that would answer his questions. Where did that come from? Oh, that's so cool. Sharon. Yeah, that's verse 21. He just says he treated my communication not only lightly, but with great contempt. It was of the devil and that there were no such things as visions and revelations.
I mean, I was kind of shook by that. And for me, this is, I love this scripture. There's, I don't, you know, it's funny how you both times I've been on, I've spent most of my time in the Pilgrim price. Um, so, cause we did the Moses stuff before that's right in the old Testament and. So this is these, these scriptures mean a lot, because my father served his mission and what was called just the upstate New York mission.
And he served in the Palmyra area because he was all over the place. And he took us back there in 2004, following my mission when I got home, it was just like 30 year reunion. And for the 1st time, I was able to go stand on the corner where the 4 churches are in Palmyra. And to be able to see each 1 now, 1 of them's turned into, I mean, many years later, 1 of them turned into a.
Like a open ceremonial, like you can just book it and rent it, whatever. But, um, you could see the bustlingness of that and you can picture all of it. And my dad said there was just, it was tons of people who just did not believe. They're like, the, the, the toll moat didn't really stop even into the, in the 1900s.
Like there was still stuff happening. Well, and, and, And God said that to Joseph Smith, they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. And so Joseph just said, I got to find out, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm anxious. I mean, I need to know. So it was sweet. Good stuff. Oh my goodness. This is anything else then Clark that stands out to you?
Or I mean, I love what we've just discussed. Anything else you're just chomping at the bit to talk about with a fact that you learned? I mean, facts like it's okay. I got problems. I got a whole, I got a whole piece of paper here, but I just, I'm just blown away. And I think there's a section where we talk about, I think it's segment three and I'll kind of maybe parlay it.
But the fact that this, this was written 18 years after the actual event. I keep coming back to this and just to think about, I'm just going to read a couple of facts. In the 18 years from the moment that he had that simple question, an anxiety driven 14 year old boy, which is probably most boys by the end, I didn't even know I had anxiety, but it was there.
Yeah. You had the first vision, you had Angel Moroni's visit, you retrieved the golden plates, you restored the Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthoods. The Book of Mormon was published. You moved the entire church to Ohio, [00:20:00] expanded the headquarters. The first vision of the kingdoms of heaven, Dr. Kevin's 76, the Kirtland temple construction had begun.
You had just sent everybody on Zion's camp, the corner, the 12 apostles in the 70 were organized and you dedicated the Kirtland temple and then all of a sudden you get back to writing about what happened 18 years ago and that's what you read is you, you're reading somebody who has gone through it and you look at the most important things that he's trying to tell you, he's emphasizing All of the emotions because he's like, if I went through this, others are going through this.
That's that's an eternal truth that that takes hindsight and he he writes this not as a 14 year old boy He writes this as a 33 year old man Who has basically seen the end from the beginning in the beginning from the end, but yet he he doesn't Dismiss the fact every member who walks through the covenantal door will have these same anxieties and questions He doesn't dismiss that because of what he knows It's just powerful to me.
Great. Thank you. Great, great insights. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. Research. Thank you. Honestly, such great research because what we're going to do with that information that Clark just gave us then is in the next segment, we are going to then study these words in view or in light of that idea that Joseph Smith came back as a man and now it changes the way you read these verses because I don't know about you guys, but when I sit down to write something later after it's happened.
In my mind, I write just the facts. I don't write a lot of emotion or fluff cause I'm not in the thick of it. And I'm like, okay, well, what do I want to remember about this moment? And so now when you read Joseph Smith history and you know that this is the most important stuff that Joseph wants us to know, now we're going to discuss more facts and his journal writing abilities and why we have so many versions of the first vision.
We'll do that in the next segment.
Segment 3
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We talked about journals are either one of you journal keepers. No, however, I do put stuff in my phone on a daily basis. So, you know, I say I had to this appointment, did this, do this, do this. So I don't actually sit down and write a journal on my computer, but I do write what's happening in my life on my phone for that day and eventually.
And I'll mention that to people who don't keep journals, that that's kind of a good way to start in, in getting information. So we have that divine retrospection to go back and go back and say, Oh yeah, that was the day that the dog died and next door and dah, dah, dah, you know, and so they're clues and promptings for what to do.
Do you write when people come visit you that day or anything like that? Sometimes. Uh huh. Yeah. If it's a unusual visit. It's like when I come over. That's very unusual. So I have stars and asterisks and exclamation points and Tammy, Tammy came, Tammy came. We might have to get rid of some of those entries upon your death.
I'll come over and edit your notes. That's funny. That may be helpful for people like me who don't sit down and actually do it, but we make note of. Yeah. One thing is for people who don't, who have not married and don't have children and don't have grandchildren and they have no one. To leave their journal to.
Talk to me about that. So why keep a journal? The reason you keep a journal is to, for two, for me it was two, for two reasons for making, noting down in my phone what's happening, is a reminder for me of my life and that I don't, at the end of my life I'll say, Um, well, I did this and this, and this, and this, so I, I need no regrets.
Hmm. So for those who, who are single and don't have children, grandchildren or, or nieces and nephews who are in the fold or care or whatever. Um, so it's not just to keep a journal for, for your kids. Yeah. Or your grandkids. It's for yourself. I do too, Sharon. What about you, Clark? How's your journal writing?
Um, so it was, I did very good on my mission. I have, I have a Um, probably 70 percent of my mission, 80 percent of my mission journaled, um, which is really good. But then my wife got me this thing called the happiness project and what is it? It's a one set, like they call it the one sentence journal, but it's a five year plan.
So I don't know if you can see it, but it's the same day and then you have five years. And I have written in this, it'll be at the end of this year, it'll [00:25:00] be three years straight and I have every single day documented of what's happened. And hopefully in the next five years, I'll be grateful that I have all of this, but it's very similar to what Sharon does.
Like I talk about. Like, hey, great Sunday with the 23rd board, um, business and ordinations, such a good time with family. Relax the rest of the day, like nothing crazy, but I actually know, I know what ordination that was. I remember that one. And then I talk about like, Oh, the Sabbath day breakfast with the family.
It was amazing. You know? And just, that's what I've been doing. And it's been. It's the way that I've gotten started back with it, but eventually I'll have five years worth of written out and, um, it's helped me. What's the name of the book again? Just called The Happiness Project. Happiness Project. Yep. Five year, a five year record.
So that's what I did. And sometimes I open up and sometimes I don't. And I look back at some of the things and it's just fun to be able to go back and say, Oh, this, this was like my daughter's grace. I said, grace, you had a tennis match and you won this much, this much. She's like, oh, I forgot about that.
Yeah. That was a great match. And I don't know. That was just like, it's been really fun to be able to bring that together. It's funny you ask that because my wife was like, you better do this. And I think I'm doing better than she has on the project, but she has one that is like a three year book, but.
Anyway, that's me. I want to start doing that. Then both of you have inspired me to do a little bit better because I always think, Oh, I'm going to write about that. And then I don't for several months. And then I miss some of the details. Like, and then I have to think back now, how did that happen? And what exactly was that about?
But if I can do it in the moment, just a sentence, that's great. That is so great. It is a clue. Well, and then now you have so much more of an appreciation for what Joseph Smith had to do when it came time to write his journals. Because like you taught us, Clark, he didn't write down a journal when he was 14.
In fact, he's very clear in his history. And I looked at some of the history from Joseph Smith papers, which is a great resource. I highly recommend you use those, but he talks about his upbringing and he says, because of indigent circumstances, we were obliged to labor hard for the support of a large family, having nine children.
And it required the exertions of all that were able to render any assistance for the support of the family. And he goes on to say that we were deprived of the benefit of an education and he says, I was nearly instructed in reading and writing and the ground rules of arithmetic, which constituted my whole literary acquirements.
So he's like, I wasn't a good writer. I didn't know what I was doing, didn't have time to become a writer. So he never kept a journal. And then when he did decide to sit down. and have a journal. Sharon, will you read what he had to say about why it took him so long to write a journal? Sure. He says, Since I have been engaged in laying the foundation of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints, I have been prevented in various ways from continuing my journal and the history in a manner satisfactory to myself or injustice to the cause.
Long imprisonments, vexatious and long continued lawsuits, the treachery of some of my clerks, the death of others, and the poverty of myself and brethren from continued plunder and driving have prevented my handing down to posterity a connected memorandum of events desirable to all lovers of truth. He added, I have continued to keep up a journal in the best manner my circumstances would allow and dictate for my history from time to time, as I have had opportunity, so that the labors and sufferings of the first elders and saints of this last kingdom might not wholly be lost to the world.
Thank you. Let's turn to Joseph Smith History 1, and we're going to read verse 1. Because he started and stopped many journals, but in his, from what I understand, in his sixth attempt to writing his history and starting a journal, verse one tells us who he is writing it to Clark. Can you read verse one for us?
Sure. Can owning it to the many reports which have been put in circulation by evil disposed designing persons in relation to the, uh, The rise and progress of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints, all of which have been designed by the authors thereof, to militate against its character as the Church and its progress in the world, I have been induced to write this history, to disabuse the public mind, and to put all inquiries after truth in possession of the facts, as they have transpired, in relation both to myself and the Church, so far as I have such facts in my possession.
Thank you. I love that in there. That was something that stood out to me where he's writing to disabuse. The public mind and to put all inquirers after truth in possession of the facts. That's us. We are now, and I love Sharon. You stated that at the very beginning that what we're about to read and study is true.
These are the [00:30:00] facts. This is what Joseph wants us to know. Now, we also mentioned there are 13 first vision accounts, because one of the things that Joseph would do is he would tell people his story. He would express and explain what happened to him in that grove. And many of those people wrote their accounts based on what Joseph had said.
And this seems to be sort of an anti. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints bullet point, like there's 13 First Vision accounts. My favorite thing ever said was by Anthony Sweat, Professor Anthony Sweat. And he says, it kills me when people are like, there's 13 accounts. And he says, yeah. And I wish there were more.
Can you imagine if somebody said, can you believe there's another account of the civil war? We only want one. He's like, no. No. When we find more journals about any historical. Experience. We are so excited to see what somebody else had to say about that, that he says, I don't understand why we get mad. I wish we had more accounts of the first vision.
I want to know. I had you guys read the accounts. Tell me some of the things. What did that teach you about Joseph Smith and the first vision when by reading? And I wonder what your experience was like reading all 13. Overwhelming. Yeah, it was. Oh, for sure. What was amazing to me is, and then there was a footnote said on he died shortly after, or he left the church shortly after.
I mean, there were antidotes that said, this guy said this, but by the way, um, it didn't, it didn't hold much water because The other thing, which was amazing, was that it was their interpretation of the first vision. It was their, what they wanted it to be. How they wanted to see it through their eyes, not through Joseph's eyes.
And that's why for me going back to the Joseph Smith history and reading those 26 verses, that's what he experienced. And they tried to magnify it, or diminish it, or enhance it, or change it, or whatever they did to fit there. understanding of how they wanted the gospel to be unraveled and revealed and restored and, and, I mean, it just went on and on.
So that's why I mentioned earlier that after I needed to read those versions so that I could understand how men and probably women want to change Um, events to suit their lifestyle and their values. And so it was so important for me to go back to the truth, which I believe it is and was and will be.
It's an eternal truth. To go back to the truth of his story and read it from his lips and his understanding and his interpretation and his feeling and his values, um, which made it so much more poignant for me. So good. That's really good. That's really good. As you were talking, Sharon, it, I wish there were more accounts of the dealings with God.
We only have the brother of Jared's written by the hand of a plate. We only have Moses and his burning bush or Moses and all the times he went to the mount. We only have them once to be able to gather information. I would love to know. Was someone else in the room and the and tammy when you were talking about like we got this question All the time on my mission all the time that people remind us where you served.
Oh, sorry. I went to scotland um Shout out to all my scottish people. We finally got a temple. Um, yay I have a special story to tell you about that. But for another day. Oh, um, anyway, I always tell people they go Well, yeah, but there's so many different accounts. I said exactly how many gospels are there?
You And how repetitive are they, but yet slightly different. Does Matthew's make John's less true? Does Mark's dismiss John? No, it doesn't. It added it as, and it is slightly different. And I think if you ever want to see this, just listen to S Michael Wilcox, because when he teaches the new Testament, he goes and he picks the ones that he wants.
You'll literally go through this entire scripture journey for only one story, but you'll bounce between three different books. And I think there's a lot of truth in that, and that's powerful. Yarg. That was powerful. Absolutely. Yeah. We do need more. Well, the Kirtland Temple. Yeah, we've got that. I mean, even the Nauvoo Temple.
I mean, I have in my family history, I had to give a talk one time and I had ancestors that were there and they're like, we saw This man, like we heard Brigham sound like Joseph, like [00:35:00] in my own family history, I have that. Is it, is it written the exact same as the person that was sitting next to them? No, but it was their interpretation.
And for me, I connected with that. I connected with that testimony. It's, I don't know it to me, it's like the more the merrier, but I don't know, maybe I'm old school. No, I'm the same with you. One of the things that I appreciated the most though, is The stories, like you said, they're different perspectives and they do vary, but here's where they never did vary.
I felt like all 13 were absolutely consistent with the story found in Joseph Smith history one verse 17. Let's just read verse 17 because it's my favorite. And I'm sharing. You could say this. In Spanish, vi una columna de luz más brillante del sol, right? Yeah. I'm sure you could say it in Scottish, Clark, but I think every, all 13 accounts were consistent in that Joseph really did.
See what he saw, and he said that, and he taught that, and they all were like, yeah, he really did. Um, let's just read verse 17. Sharon, can you read that for us? It no sooner appeared that I found myself delivered from the enemy, which held me bound when the light rested upon me. I saw two personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air.
One of them spake unto me, calling me by name, and said, pointing to the other, This is my beloved son, hear him. And I just thought, boy, if they really wanted to discredit Joseph, they would have discredited him with that. And none of them did, they would have been like, he didn't really see it. It was like, no, he, he did that, that right there is, is, um, my purple highlighter, eternal truth.
Yeah. That really happened. We have time. If I could, I feel prompted to share something. Please do. Clark. Um, on my mission, I was in a, an area called Livingston and, uh, there was a town center. Everything revolves around a town, like everything, like villages and towns, like everything's just the center. The center of this town was a mall.
There was, and hundreds of people would come into every day and we called it GQing, which is the golden question. And you just stand on the street. We had two places that we'd stand, so you really couldn't get to the mall. If, if you didn't want to talk to us, tough luck, you were going to have to like go a mile around the entire mall.
But there was this gentleman, he stopped me and he said, uh, he was very antagonistic and he was, um, preparing to go on his mission for his church. And he was going to Canada and he right out of the bat, Oh, just came after me. But Joseph Smith, he said, it's not true. And you know, it's not true. And he just kept attacking me and, and what I was saying.
And I just remember. Like the spirit was so it was overwhelming I just said but I kind of put my hand up a little bit like not on him But like because he was in my face like out of my face Like step back and I just repeated the whole thing and I just remember That was the moment that I officially knew that actually happened.
I didn't know I knew it was true I had a testimony of it, but I mean I always knew why but now I knew why I know And that changed for me. And I still remember at that point, that person stopped talking. I wished him well on his mission. I said, preach the good word of Jesus. Bring as many souls as you can.
And he walked away and didn't say another word. And it was just like a very powerful moment. I remember it cause I journaled it thankfully. And I had to take the rest of the day. I was kind of spent. Um, I didn't feel very well luck enough. I was serving with one of my best friends, um, at the time from high school.
I don't know if you remember him, Kent, but I don't know if he's in your class, but we served together as companions and we were companions at that moment. And, uh, I just went home and, and laid down on the couch for a couple hours. I just couldn't go, but it was a really powerful moment. And so people say, when did I find out?
Well, I was, I think I was 20 years old and I was standing in front of the ASDA in Livingston, Scotland, and I was able to share, share something that I knew it was true, but then had it manifested upon me. Thank you for sharing that. Thank you for what I felt when you shared that tender moment. It took me back to that verse one where it said to put all inquirers after truth in possession of the facts.
I was in possession of the facts and I've shared this before. I wanted to know if Joseph Smith really was a prophet. I prayed to know that on my mission and I didn't get an answer until seventh period skyline high school. And I can't remember if you were in that class. We had been talking about the first vision, all the class periods is my last lesson I'm going to teach.
And I got to Joseph Smith history one verse 25 and I don't even know if you remember this, but I had it [00:40:00] up. I wrote it out that whole summer, verse 25 and put it on the wall for us to read. And we read it as a class. And when I got to verse 25 at the very end, the spirit hit me so hard and I felt the spirit so strong.
When Joseph says. So go down to the very bottom where it says, for I had seen a vision and I read this out loud to the class for, I had seen a vision, I knew it and I knew that God knew it and I could not deny it. Neither dared I do it. At least I knew that by so doing, I would offend God and come under condemnation.
And when I read that, I just started sobbing and I looked at you guys and I was like, This is, this really happened. Joseph Smith really did see what he said he saw. And I knew in that moment and I had my spiritual experience and, and I was a seeker after truth, but it took me 10 years to get that one. And I just, I think it's really powerful that Joseph wrote this for us, the seekers of truth.
This is what he wants us to know the most important parts of his history. I just, I'm so appreciative for it. I do remember that. That was our class. I was in that class with you. Seventh grade was, oh my gosh, Clark. It was the coolest moment of my life. I remember, I, I remember you actually writing this down 'cause it was long like you, you took, and it wasn't a whiteboard, it was a chalkboard, but um, like I remember it distinctly 'cause and always I remember is 'cause I used to.
I had, uh, 7th period was seminary and 8th period was home release. And so I used to leave early sometimes, I promise I was not that bad. So I always knew I had, I could go after lunch or whatever, but yeah, I do remember that actually in that 7th period class that was, Oh my gosh, you were, in fact, I think you were the one cause I, after that, when I said, you guys, this really happened, I think you were the one who said, duh.
I don't know. I don't know. I think you, you're like, does history is like, we know it happened. And I go, no, I don't think, you know, I never knew it happened to this very moment. Oh my gosh. That was so this coming full circle. This is so cool. Clark. I love it. It's true. It's so true. And that's another account.
I'm here to put another account to that story that it was there and I can't tell it the exact same way you did, but it doesn't make it less true. So I think it's more of a testimony of that. You can have multiple accounts of truth and we should, we should embrace it. And I think that, I think that's the beauty of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Absolutely. Okay. Well then let's do this in the next segment. We're going to dive into more about Joseph and we get to find out about his family as part of the come follow me lesson this week. They have interjected a little, like get to know Joseph's family and Sharon is going to tell us all about them in the next segment.
Segment 4
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Okay. Sharon, teach us about the family of Joseph Smith. According to Joseph Smith history one versus three and four is where we can read so much about it. Okay, first of all, we'll introduce who his family was and how he introduced them in one of his journal entries. And he said, um, in about four years after my father's arrival at Palmyra, he moved with his family into Manchester in the same county of Ontario.
His family, that's meaning Joseph's father, his family consisting of 11 souls, namely my father, Joseph Smith, my mother, Lucy Smith, whose name previous to her marriage was Lucy was Mack, daughter of Solomon Mack, my brothers Alvin, who died November the 19th, 1823, in the 25 year of his age, Hiram, myself, and Samuel Harrison, he, he mentions the second name of Samuel for some reason, Samuel Harrison, William and Don Carlos, and my sisters, Sophronia, Catherine, and Lucy.
So, that's his family, and in the Voices of Restoration, we have four comments by family members. Um, the first is from his mother. She says, in about 1802, I was taken sick, and um, she said, said to herself, I'm not prepared to die, so, because I don't know the ways of Christ, and I need to know that. And so, she said, she looked to the Lord and begged.
And pled with the Lord that he would spare my life, that I might bring up my children and comfort the heart of my husband. Thus, I lay all night, she said, and I covenanted with God that if he would heal me, I would endeavor to get that religion that would enable me to serve him right, whether it was in the Bible or whether it might be found or wherever it might be found, even if it was to be obtained from heaven by prayer and faith.
And then she says, at last a voice spoke to me. And said, Seek and ye [00:45:00] shall find, knock and it shall be opened unto you, let your heart be comforted. Ye believe in God, believe also in me. So the, the mother of the family, Lucy, was the one who was the rock of the importance of God and Jesus Christ and probably not knowing then that they were two different people.
But she, she knew because of her reading of the scriptures. In fact, William, one of the sons, says, My mother, who was a very pious woman and much interested in the welfare of her children, both here and hereafter, made us use every means which her parental love could suggest to get us engaged in seeking for our soul's salvation, as it was termed.
So, She was kind of the, the one who said, okay, we're going to have family home evening now, but mostly it was just reading the scriptures. She wanted her children, um, solid in the scriptures, that they would turn to the Bible and understand and believe in God. He says, we always had family prayers since I can remember.
And then the prophet himself says, I now say that my father never did a mean act. He talks about his father, how he loved his father and his memory. And then he goes on to say, okay. Sacred to me are the thoughts which I cherish of the history of his life, his father's life, that have rolled through my mind and have been planted there by my own observation.
My mother also is one of the noblest and the best of all women. So Joseph did not come from an atheistic family. He came from one that was steeped in Bible study. And, and Bible understanding. And so, a large family, most of the time living in poverty, and traveling from hill to vale, going from place to place, and then of course being driven out from place to place.
I've never been, well, I was going to say I've never been kicked out, but I was kicked out of BYU. But, I mean, I've never been, I've never been. Driven out, and said, you have to leave your house, Sharon, and everything, your garden, you're, you're, you're not welcome here. And they did that time and time and time again.
Those were external. Um, influences that did not affect the internal family unity of loving and studying together and relying on, on God, the father. Can we just talk about Lucy really quick because I loved it when you said she was the one holding family home evening. One of the things I think sometimes women get caught up in is they're like, I don't want to be the one doing that.
I want my husband to lead. I want him to hold family home evenings, blah, blah, blah, you know, all these different things. And, and I. I love that. You were like, she probably was the one and she was a tough cookie. I mean, this woman knew heartache Clark. You kind of alluded to this. I mean, before there Alvin was born, she had an infant son that born and died on the same day.
So right out of the gates, newly married. Here she is a cute bride and now she's pregnant and then that baby won't live. Heartache right from the very get go. Then she'll have Alvin Smith, Sophronia, Joseph, Samuel, then another son named Ephraim who will die. On the day that he was born. I thought it was 11 days past his birth.
Oh, you're right. 11 days. Yep. And then William Catherine Don Carlos and Lucy Smith. She's going to bury children and be poor. I mean, well, she's been driven. I mean, I've been to, I've been to Sharon, Vermont. It's beautiful. Okay. And where their house is situated is absolutely gorgeous. She probably thought she had a dream come true.
But once again, they dealt with financial problems. Like always. And that's why they hadn't had to move to, I mean, Western New York at the time was where like the further West you went, the less like you had to deal with people and it was cheaper. And, and that's what people did. That's why they kept going out there because economies grew and forced people out.
And, and that's where a lot of the poor folks went. And so I think that's where they always said the humble went West because they had no choice. And that's, that's I think indicative of what they felt. Yeah. And you could imagine what their prayers must have sounded like as a family. I'm sure they were blessing and being grateful for food that they had, but don't you wonder if they also prayed for help to be able to pay the bills or help to find work?
And I think it's so important that you mention that, Tammy, is that we need to understand the context from which they were living. Not today's standards, and not [00:50:00] prehistoric standards, but in the 1800s, in the East going West, we, we need to transform ourselves back to that time period to understand the values, not today's standards.
Like the, the contention of all the churches, we need to understand that, that drove Joseph to the garden, you know, drove him into the, to the forest to, to pray, because everything was so contentious and he wanted to know. Well, I think we need, well, I need to, I need to understand their perspective of what was going on, not mine.
I need to understand what poverty was to them, not to me, what losing a child was to her, what, you know, all the things that were going on then, and the value system that was surrounding them, and what they had to buck up against, all those value systems, I mean, The church today has moved so far away from the world, because those external worldly values are not significant, I mean, they can't impinge on what our values are, I mean, we have to solidify who we are and what we're all about, and tell the world to go fish, because it's just You know, it's just, uh, uh, well, enough said, Oh, fish, do you have any, do you have any, do you have any jacks?
Well let's read verse seven in the Joseph Smith history so we can have a perspective of where they were, where Joseph's family was religiously. We're going to, we're not going to talk about Joseph's experience yet. We just want to know the family situation. And so verse seven, Sharon, will you read that for us?
I was at this time in my 15th year. My father's family was proselyted to the Presbyterians faith, and four of them joined that church, namely my mother, Lucy, my brothers, Hiram and Samuel Harrison, and my sister, Sophronia. All right. So that's where some of them are. And they're all kind of just having this religious experience.
And Joseph's is a little bit different. And I've asked Clark to teach us about Joseph and tell us about his experience. And so in the next segment, we're going to dive into where Joseph leaned and what happened as a result of that. We'll do that next.
Segment 5
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All right. So now we know what Joseph and his family were doing religiously. Well, some of them, not everybody, but those more, those few, what was Joseph experiencing? And I asked Clark to just teach us about Joseph Smith, hit it, Clark. Okay, uh, entering stage left. It's a big ask. I realize I know I, my palms are starting to sweat here.
Um, but we have to understand that it's your interpretation, right? Yeah, make it 14 for me. The, the thing about Joseph is. I, I actually, I haven't really figured him out yet. I think it's going to take me a lifetime to really figure it out. And I tried to do the best I could. But one of the questions you asked him, he was specifically around his religion that he was leaning towards.
And it's the Methodist version of Christianity. It's that method to the verse that says that I certainly can. It's actually verse eight. And he says, Basically halfway through. These are big verses. So it's halfway through. Um, and it will, I'll start with in process of time, my mind became somewhat partial to the Methodist sect.
And I felt some desire to be united with them, but so great was the confusion and strife among the different denominations that it was impossible for a person young as I, once again, that humbleness of like, I didn't know what I was doing. But I just was doing it back to like, don't judge me, please. I was just doing what I thought was right.
Um, that I acquainted my acquainted with men of those things and those things to come to any certain conclusion who was right and who was wrong. So you're starting to see the development of his questions, who is right and who is wrong. What I learned from Joseph is he's very black and white. It goes back to when he had the surgery.
It's like, I'm not doing that. It's, it wasn't like, well, I'll make the exception. I don't think Joseph lived in gray. And I think that God needs people who have the ability to understand the one and zeros, the binaries decisions of life. And it's powerful. He uses those people because they can come to a conclusion faster.
Either it's it or it's not, and they put it all in themselves, and then they put their trust in God. So, um, I think it, I think that stems back to the eternal, uh, pre mortal counsel, which is you have, you either accept God's plan or you don't. There isn't an alternative Satan gray plan. It's just God's plan, and it's yes or no.
But I'm actually going to take us [00:55:00] to the New Testament. We're going to go to James. I think I think James had a profound impact on Joseph, and I think it really revolutionized who he was. So let's open up the book of James. Um, we used to do this all time. It's page 1538. Um, nice job paper. Um, foundationally, though, versus 2 through 4, we always know James 1 But two and four are really profound and I'm gonna just read them But it says my brethren count it all joy when you fall in diverse temptations Knowing this that the trying of your faith work of patience remember before Joseph read that important verse of verse 5 he read these and I think what that was is it was a calling it was him like the spirit saying does this sound like you Joseph?
And I think Joseph saying, yes, I'm going to continue on, I'm going to figure this out. And I think what happens is I think we see James and Joseph and parallel paths, which is super important. James, does anyone know who James is? Anyone like to take a crack at it? Tammy? I feel like the brother of Jesus.
Yeah. Yeah, I think that there's, you know, he was the basically the biological half brother of of Jesus or the biological son of Mary and Joseph and he was younger and he is mentioned in Matthew 1355 and it just a paraphrase. It's is not this. The carpenter son is not his mother, Mary and his brother, James.
And there was the other brothers there, but James, so we know that he's. There we know that Joseph or that Jesus was in a family. One of the things that we don't really talk about is James's unique conversion to the faith. Many people just think that he's probably a believer because his brother is who he is.
But that wasn't the case. And during Jesus's ministry, James and other brothers were likely skeptical of the divinity, just as most people were. That doesn't come from me. That's John 7, 5. However, after Jesus's resurrection, James became a devoted believer. And this was likely due to the post resurrection appearance to him specifically in first Corinthians written by Paul.
So that's 15, seven for those keeping track. I can only imagine how much grief he got being the brother of Jesus. Yeah, and what was, like, frocked upon, frocked, I think it frocked, frocked upon him, what was placed upon him, um, I think it probably swayed him to maybe not believe Jesus, because he was still 100 percent mortal, and his brother was half mortal, half God, like, that's crazy, but, He didn't necessarily, I think he believed that like a resurrection was possible, but I don't think it was actually real.
And I think that was for most disciples. I think that's for most people. But if you think about it in our day, when you have family members who are like your own leaders, or maybe you don't believe that like a sibling could do that, you look at, uh, many prophets today who have brothers and sisters that aren't, that aren't active in the church or never were in the church.
And the ability for them to accept that is very important. Hence why I think James wrote what he did to reassure God's people in his book that got that God gives wisdom to all men liberally and abradeth not, and he's highlighting God's approachableness and generous nature with him, someone who had to come to learn Jesus for who he really was, even though he was related, because that was his path in some specific way.
So I see James as a foreshadowing of what would happen to Joseph and the cause, like the closest to him. would see him as a prophet and then later as a fallen man. James is writing to those people, letting them know that what happens to the best of us, even potentially the brother of Christ. And that's powerful.
That's powerful to me because many times, um, I've seen firsthand that dismissal very quickly of a sibling and the Joseph Smith family or the, I guess the Joseph Smith senior family hadn't a very similar lifestyle was one of the sons going to be this amazing person to restore the gospel and what better way to gain that truth.
Anyway, so I'll pause there, but I do want to talk a little bit about some words because I love words. Please do. Okay. Yes. There's two words that really stood out. We have Abra and liberally. What are the distinctions between these? Well, for all of our listeners and everyone who likes words, the word liberally derives from a Latin word called liberals, meaning generous, [01:00:00] bountiful, or noble.
I've never heard noble attached to it. Me neither. That's cool. And that's a new one for me because that really pushes it over the edge for me. Um, it's also tied to the root word liber, which is meaning free. So God gives us freedom. It's a noble freedom to be able to shed ourselves of the world, to shed ourselves of The Great Sin, so to speak, that we all are privy to.
And it makes so much sense to me that Joseph would learn about this first by James, and then God, in all of his wisdom, surpassing everything that we ever need, required or expected, he gives it to us in noble freedom. It's for our taking. That's it. It's up to us. Just as James had that opportunity, now Joseph has that opportunity.
And it ties back to that very first thing in segment one, which is, um, like that divine retrospection. Here we have James is coming to know his brother as the actual resurrected Christ is what propels. The restoration, and I think if James knew the significance of his short chapter, his short epilogue in this grand scheme of life, I think he would probably be a little shy and bashful and maybe a little like ashamed.
That he wasn't believing all the time, but I think it reaffirms that we needed James to go through that because James's story is my story because I believe that Joseph saw God, the father and his son, Jesus Christ, and through that restored priesthood keys and all of the restored keys to this point for me.
And my last word is abradeth, and I think this is, I actually love this word, um, because it's, it carries on, but the word abradeth comes from an old English word, abregand, which meaning to reproach, scald, or rebuke. So when we add the word not after, he's not going to rebuke you for who you are. He's not going to rebuke you for coming and to partaking of what we know, which is, the A noble freedom, which is you can choose.
And I would have to believe that Joseph learned that through the spirit, not through his intellect. And you start to see the first manifestations of the spirit working on him, which probably made it a little bit easier for him to translate. To see Moroni in his visions at night, um, these are all precursors and I just am, I honestly am so grateful for scriptures because I got to learn who James was.
And I think I go through James moments all the time and I'm okay with that. Goodness. Clark. Great. Wonderful. I'm so glad you dissected those words. It gives so much more meaning. It does. Not only to James, but to Joseph Smith. I just, thank you. Yeah. That was wonderful. Thank you very, very much. And I just love the connection to James.
Yeah. That's a great analogy, comparison. So powerful. So let's do this thing, Clark. Let's go read verses 12 and 13 in the Joseph Smith history because he's going to put these two verses to test and he's going to explain how he did it. You know, and I, I think you're right. I don't think he just went to James one five, right?
Yeah. Because James one two. To me is Joseph Smith counted all joy. When you come up against tribulation, that is the nature of who Joseph Smith was to me. And how many times did he go back to that scripture? After he tells people, he's like, what am I doing? Yeah. Right. Absolutely. What have I done? So, um, Sharon, will you read verses 12 and 13 for us?
You betcha. I would be happy to. I love reading them. Never did any passage of scripture come with more power to the heart of man than this did at this time to mine. It seemed to enter with great force into every feeling of my heart. I reflected on it again and again, knowing that if any person needed wisdom from God, I did.
For how to act, I did not know. And unless I could get more wisdom than I then had, I would never know. For the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible. 13. At length, I came to the conclusion that I must either remain in darkness and confusion, or else I must do as James directs, and that is ask of God.
I at length came to the determination [01:05:00] to ask of God, concluding that if he gave wisdom to them that lacked wisdom, and would give liberally and not upbraid, I might venture. Thank you. Wow. And thank you to Clark, because since you just taught us about James, I've never had his name stand out to me like it just did in verse 13.
Yeah, James. That gave it so much power. I think he had it. I have a feeling that when Joseph passed, James was probably someone he sought. I truly do. I truly do, because it wouldn't, Joseph wouldn't know what he knows if it wasn't for a humble half brother of the Savior, who didn't necessarily believe. That his brother, his older brother, was who he was.
I think he had some hope. It took a resurrected, and I think that coming back to James wasn't just a Luke, it was, it was a manifestation of God's will for James. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Great. Clark. You did a fantastic job. So strong. That was awesome. And scene. Oh, and scene. Absolutely. Wow. Absolutely.
Wonderful. So then let's, let's, here's what we're going to do in our very last segment. We're going to put this all to the test and I'm going to ask my guests if this formula really works and if prayers really do get answered, we'll do that next.
Segment 6
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All right. We are going to jump into Joseph Smith history. We're going to read verses 15 through 17. We each will take a verse. We'll start with Sharon. I love how you said, Sharon, I love to read these verses. So Sharon read verse 15, Clark 16, I will do 17 and then I'm going to ask you guys a question. Okay.
Fifteen. After I had retired to the place where I had previously designed to go, having looked around me and finding myself alone, I kneeled down and began to offer up the desires of my heart to God. I had scarcely done so when immediately I was seized upon by some power which entirely overcame me and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak.
Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction. But exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me, at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction, Not to the imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.
It no sooner appeared that I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me, I saw two personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name, and said, pointing to the other, This is my beloved son.
Hear him. There is the answer to Joseph Smith's prayer. But I also noticed in verse 16, there's another prayer before he even gets the answer for the prayer. He is. He says another prayer. He dares to ask God to help deliver him from Satan, who wants to make sure none of us have spiritual experiences. So either right before we pray or right after Satan is ready to go to either.
Get us from praying or discount what we experienced and had the feeling of, boy, he's the worst. Just don't like that guy. Don't like that guy. So we've spent this whole entire episode talking about the power of prayer and the ability to ask and, and how Joseph went in such humility. And so my question to my guests is this, because this year we are talking about the acronym Ask a S K, which means Joseph was always seeking more knowledge.
And I wanted to know from my guests, has there been a time in your life where you have taken this approach to the Lord and you have asked him because you needed more wisdom, um, do you have a story you could share where you prayed and you got an answer? Does it work? I do. I was taking the missionary lessons at BYU.
I was a Lutheran at the time. And I had had a lesson from two wonderful sisters. They had taught me this part of the Joseph Smith story where that the, there were three personages in the Godhead. And I had believed that all my life. I knew that Jesus was not God. For some reason, growing up, I went to the Presbyterian church.
I went to [01:10:00] Episcopalian. I went to the Methodist. I mean, I was like Joseph Smith. I was going to all of them. And none of them told me that Jesus was different than God and the Holy Spirit. In fact, they never even mentioned the Holy Spirit. So they brought that to my attention. of the, the appearance of God the Father and the Son Jesus Christ.
And it just resonated. I mean, it hit me like a ton of bricks and I thought, Oh, I don't know. This is the only church in the whole world that, you know, that I know about that's going to do this. So I did pray about it. And I prayed about it, and I prayed about it, and I prayed about it, and I said to myself, Self, if you have believed all your life that there are three personages, and this church tells you that there are, hello, listen up.
And so it was at that point that I said, this has to be the true church. It was by default, because I didn't really have a testimony of Joseph Smith at the time, but, but he taught of the three personages. And so, if he taught that, And he saw them, then it must be true, and he must be a prophet. Well, it took me a while, I was 18 at the time, so it took me a while to actually gain a testimony of the prophet Joseph Smith, because he was just a prophet by default, because he was the one who announced the Godhead.
But I did. That moment of prayer, um, solidified my conversion. And I knew I had to join this church to find out more. I thought, well, I'm not going to find out more by not joining, I better join. So, I knew that much, that you have to be a member of the team in order to benefit from the team's experiences. I couldn't be an outsider, I had to actually join the team, and that meant being baptized.
And then, from then on, I just continued to learn and to grow and to understand. And I had the answer. That's it. Not the answer to prayer. That was, that was the biggie. There were others. Of course, there've been others. I mean, many, many, many. And I, so it's not just a one time thing. I mean, I've had answers to prayers constantly, um, with regard to my life, to the gospel, to everything.
So it's, it's, it's an ongoing experience. It's not a one time, you know, one and done it's, it's forever. Fantastic. But I, and I, what I love about your story is that you had that experience at a young age, and you knew. You could continue to go to God for more experiences, and you got more experiences. And why, why I believe they were three, I don't know where that came from.
We had prayer, my mother had prayer with my brother and me every night. Now I lay me down to sleep, I pray the Lord my soul to keep. If I should die before I wake, I pray the Lord my soul to take. Amen. And that was it. I mean, not, not bless mom and not bless dad, none of that, none of the stuff that I've learned about prayer was just now I lay me down to sleep.
So, but, but mother instilled in me, like Lucy instilled, Lucy Mack Smith instilled in her children that there was a God, that there was a God and I needed to pray to him. And I went to Sunday school. Uh, you know, to the Lutheran Church and I, you know, I did all the things, but it wasn't, wasn't right. I, I, I never grasped it until I was 18 and the Sister Missionaries.
It reminds me of what Clark said, because I wrote it down. For some people, it's either it or it's not. Yes or no. And that is for sure, Sharon, you're very black and white. It's either writer. It isn't. And you knew that. And I love how you connected it to our pre earth life, Clark, that many of us up there knew it.
This is right. And so when we're down here and we hear stuff, we go, Oh yeah, that's right. Cause we knew. Yeah. I was primed for it. You were for sure. A hundred percent prime for it. Awesome. Sharon, thank you for sharing that story. So good. What about you, Clark? Clark. I mean, the, the thing that touched me, I, I still haven't memorized the first vision.
I didn't, but the way that we were supposed to be asked to memorize it, we didn't do the, it no sooner appeared to me that I found myself that we didn't do that part. But, um, the part that really stood out to me was in an experience in my life. Um, I think we talked about it on the first podcast. We've, Karen, I've, we've always, we wanted a huge family.
I wanted five kids. She wanted six. We have one. And we've struggled with that. In our lives forever. And I remember the, the prayer that I gave, which is like, why is it so? Why, why am I not able to fulfill what you asked me to fulfill? What is wrong with this process? Cause it didn't make sense to me when I'm trying to be obedient.
I think we, a lot of people have this, like I'm paying my tithing. Why did I lose my job? And what I learned was, is God doesn't put conditional things He doesn't say, you do [01:15:00] this, I'll do this. He just says, I'll always have my spirit to be with you. And the realization of that when I prayed to find out why I was struggling with trying to become a father with a bigger family, the truth was very manifested to me that that's not what I, that's not what I need from you.
I need you to be a follower and I need you to be a covenant keeper and I need you to be in the temple. And that's your job. And that was very distinct for me. It didn't change. It hasn't changed for many years. This was many years. And at that point people, you know, I'd be like, I tell people all the time, like, Oh, we just didn't, we wanted to have big family and they go, Oh, I'm so sorry.
I'm so sorry. And it's like, I'm good. Like I I'm okay. And, and I, it sounds so snooty. It does. I promise. But it's true. But I wasn't for a long time. I wasn't because I felt that I made a covenant to do that and I couldn't do it. And it's really hard to embrace that. I think a lot of people struggle with that.
Those who like have never married or those who have been married and get divorced and you're like, I'm doing what, what is, what is the dealio? The reality is, is it comes back to verse 17 and he said, calling me by name and pointing to the other. So what he's doing is, is he's telling us like, Clark, look to your savior.
That, that's what that is to me, and that's what the answer to the prayer is. Many times, I know my answers before I even ask, but I still feel like I'm going to be judged if I don't ask. That's my, that's on me. And so I would encourage every person, no matter what, even if you know the answer, whether you're like, yep, I got to get myself back to the church, I got to get myself back to the temple, whatever it may be, God's going to give you the same thing.
He's going to call you by your name and he's going to have you look directly to the Savior. And that's the covenant that we have. That's the promise. Thank you. I highlighted that part, calling me by name, and I brought what you said, but I put my name in there next to that verse of scripture. Tammy, just look to the Savior.
Sharon, look to the Savior. Thank you, Clark. Thank you, Clark. Thank you, Clark and Sharon. That was a great discussion. Oh, my word. This, it was spirit filled the whole time. Ah, okay. So as a reminder to everyone listening, we are no longer asking for takeaways. Instead, this is our question. What truth did the Holy Ghost teach or reaffirm to you today?
I'll go first since Sharon's gone first for me every single time. So that's right. Thanks. Thanks, Clark. I can build on yours. It's actually something that Sharon said. Um, so it's like a takeaway. I'm still old school 2024 here podcasting. Um, it was when you were talking about your personal accountability to your journal.
And what came to me was this phrase, obedience is love, and that's what you taught me, and that's, that is an eternal truth, is that you, it doesn't matter, even if you think no one would read it, you do it because God asked you to, and ultimately when, if we truly, if we truly believe that a covenant binds us, it's a binding relationship with Christ, then that is the only thing that matters.
And that is one eternal truth, that I will be obedient to what he says, regardless of if I think anything's gonna come of it. It doesn't matter. If God asks, I do. And if I do, He will love me, and He'll support me. And when I stand before Him, I will say, I did it. And, and that's all I can, that's all I can say.
Great. So great. Mine is like yours, uh, Clark, and that is obedience. And the other one is agency. And so many people think they are opposites, that if you're obedient, you give up your agency and that's not true. Yeah, you are obedient because you have agency to obey or to not obey. And once you do obey, then you have more agency than you can ever imagine because it obedience opens up the door to agency for me.
And, um, that truth, along with, again, the, the Godhead, that there are three members of the Godhead, that was the truth that was reconfirmed, and that, um, Um, I have access to revelation. The church receives revelation, but I have access to revelation. And so, um, when I was prompted to say, yes, this church is true, that was a revelation to me.
And when I, whatever I do that is within the church and within the confines and I'm doing the right thing for the right reason, and I've toyed with that one way or the other, [01:20:00] and I go the right way, that to me, that's revelation. And so, Um, reconfirming, I think going over this lesson for this podcast, reconfirmed, um, the beauty of the Godhead, the beauty of obedience, the beauty of agency, the beauty of revelation, and um, the beauty of our Savior.
Amen. Thank you. Uh, for me, I would say Sharon, early on when you started, you reminded us of the simplicity of his asking and that sometimes we just make asking God things too complicated and it's really is so simple. He wants us to go to him and your definitions, Clark of liberally and a Breda just expanded Yeah.
The whole story about James and now I love, love Joseph Smith History 1 verse 13 when he brings up the name of James and, and what we know about him. I love how you expounded on that and taught us so much truth and there's just truth throughout this entire episode. I've written so many notes, I could have an episode on the notes.
That's right. Exactly right. I have to. It's been good. So it's been so good and just, yeah, a reminder to everybody when he says calling me by name, he is calling you by name and put your place in there that Tammy look to the savior. I just loved that. So. So much truth. Thank you. I love you both. We're done.
I love you guys. Thank you. All right so what truth did the Holy Ghost teach you or Remind you of go to our group on Facebook or follow us on Instagram to share what you have learned and you can even ask Questions, which I love to answer then at the end of the week on a Saturday We're going to post this question Asking what it is that the Holy Ghost taught you this week and I can't wait to read what you write Comment on the post that relates to this specific lesson and share your thoughts.
You can get to both our Facebook and Instagram by going to the show notes for this episode at ldsliving. com slash Sunday on Monday. And it's not a bad idea to go there anyway, because that's where we have links to all the references and a transcript of this whole discussion. So go check it out. The Sunday on Monday study group is a Deseret Bookshelf Plus original brought to you by LDS Living.
It's written and hosted by me, Tammy Uzelac Hall. And today, our incredible, just brilliant study group participants were Sharon Staples and Clark Davis. And you can find more information about my friends at ldsliving. com slash Sunday on Monday. Our podcast is produced by Cole Wissinger and me. It is edited and mixed by Cole Wissinger and our executive producer is Erin Hallstrom.
Thanks for being here. We'll see you next week. Oh my goodness. And please remember that you are God's favorite.