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[00:00:00] One of the things I love to say when I agree with someone or something is, oh, 100% true. Now, recently, I've actually stepped it up a notch and now I find myself saying 1000% true. 'cause we all know I love to live in the land of hyperbole. But I say that implying that I could just not agree more with what is being said, because what's being said is the most true thing ever.

Well, this week's come follow me lesson is all about truth and specifically eternal truth, which is and will always be 1000 percent true. Welcome to the Sunday on Monday study group, a desert bookshelf plus original brought to you by LDS living, where we take the come follow me lesson for the week and we really dig into the scriptures together.

I'm your host. Tammy Uzelac Hall. Now, if you're new to our study group, follow the link in our description. It's going to explain how you can best use this podcast to enhance your Come Follow Me study just like listener, Cassidy Wall from St. George, Utah. Cassidy, I loved meeting you at the Magnify event.

Thank you for coming. Now, another incredible thing about our study group, and it's my favorite thing, is each week we're joined, usually by two of my friends. But this week I have one friend and this is the one friend I knew that God wanted because it was just as clear as day when I sat down to discuss the specific topic of eternal truth.

The spirit said it's Kathryn Davis. Hello, Kathryn. Hello. Well, that is a really nice. Intro. And I am sitting here thinking, Oh, what does God want me to learn that if he wants me on this podcast, then he definitely wants me to learn something. Well, I knew it was supposed to be you because I'm like, duh.

I mean, she's a master teacher, everyone. She has taught seminary. She now teaches at the UVU Institute. She's paid the price to know stuff. And I just thought this would be great to seminary, former seminary teachers, two people who love the scriptures. And we're just going to talk about truth. And I'm going to introduce it in the.

When we start, but it's going to be such a cool discussion. And so if you guys want to know about Kathryn and you do, I'm going to highly recommend you go check out our show notes and you're going to see a bio about her and cute pictures of her and her family. So I highly recommend you go see that.

And I'm so excited about our discussion. Are you ready for this? Kathryn? I am. I'm really looking forward to where the spirit will lead us. Oh, me too. We prayed for that in our opening prayer. So everybody grab your boots. We're going to do this. So also grab your scriptures and something to mark your scriptures with.

And we're going to dig into Doctrine and Covenants section one. Okay. Kathryn, are you like me though? Do you ever say, Oh, 100 percent true or a thousand percent true? Yes, I do. Actually, when somebody says something in class, I'm like, Oh, truth. So good. Yes, truth. I absolutely agree. I think there's so many ways we can agree with that by saying something is so true.

And I want us to be thinking about this concept because here's the thing. For those of you listening, who've been listening for a while, we always start by me asking my guest, tell me what the Holy Ghost taught you, but we're going to switch it up a little bit today, a little bit different. I'm still going to ask that question, but I'm going to ask it at the end.

And here's why. So get ready for this. You guys in the come follow me manual, we have been asked to look for. And notice something as we study the scriptures this year, several times in the first few pages of instruction on how to teach. It points out that as teachers, whether in church or in the home, we are to look for quote unquote eternal truths.

I want you to sit with that for a minute. It actually asks the teachers to ask the students. Tell me an eternal truth you found as you studied the scriptures this week. So I've been thinking a lot about that. And I've thought, you know what? We want to be really good at this by the end of this year. And I just think Doctrine and Covenants is the perfect book.

To look for eternal truths, because this is a book of questions and answers. Kathryn, you're shaking your head. Yes. Tell me why. Well, I also think it's so important at the beginning of the doctrine covenants where we are taught so much, how we can hear the spirit and how we learn eternal truths, because.

They're talking like God is talking to a people who are unfamiliar with how the spirit works Yes, so he's teaching them in every section Here's how you can feel the spirit. Here's how you learn by the spirit. Here's how you act on the spirit. Here's truth Oh my gosh, let me teach you how to listen because they're all new.

They don't know yet Their knowledge is yes Yeah. They have no idea. And here's a young man, Joseph Smith, who is a prophet of this restored church on the earth who has no idea how to do this. And the Lord's like, we've got to restore some truths back onto the earth. And so they're all being taught at the same time and we get to watch this.

And quite frankly, it's something that now we're being taught. And even though it's always, it's me, clearly it's been around longer than [00:05:00] I've been alive, but I'm learning these truths bit by bit. As Joseph and the new members of this church did. So, Kathryn, right out of the gate, I want you to just tell us, teach us, like, what in the world is an eternal truth?

What are we looking for? Well, I think even when we talk about eternal truths, we might have a tendency to overcomplicate that. Oh, for sure. Don't you think? We get nervous about it, like, oh, that's a big word. Yeah. That's a big word. What does that mean? It has to mean like deep doctrine. Um, and I think simply an eternal truth is the spirit bringing things to our remembrance.

That's the role of the Holy Ghost is to bring things to our remembrance and to testify of Jesus Christ. So any truth is when we receive. Revelation, when we receive personal revelation, or we read something and we're like, that is truth. Like that, I know that is eternal truth. Oh my gosh, that's a great definition of what it is because you're right.

We get so bombarded with like eternal truth is big, big words, but it's just something as simple as what did you read that was true? Or as you studied this week, what is something you studied that you know or that the Holy Ghost confirmed to you? That's true. Now that can be a little overcomplicated too.

We're going to get into that. How the Spirit does that. Absolutely it can. Yes. So hold on now, because we're going to get into that. But I wanted us, there's a really great talk from October, 2023 given by Elder John C. Pingree Jr. And Kathryn's going to read this quote about why we even need to look for eternal truth.

We are constantly bombarded with strong opinions, biased reporting and incomplete data. At the same time, the volume and sources of this information are proliferating. our need to recognize the truth has never been more important. Truth is critical for us to establish and strengthen our relationship with God, find peace and joy, and reach our divine potential.

Thank you. Isn't that so important right now? Because it's even getting so hard to distinguish what's AI and what's truth, and the need is So critical for us to learn to establish and learn what truth is, because in a world that's trying to mimic truth, the only way we can find truth is by, like, relying on the Holy Ghost.

I love that you just brought all of that up, because I'm picturing all of the little kids in primary. For those of you primary teachers out there, We have to teach our kids how to know what is truth. You're right. They are in a world where they are bombarded with every single bit of knowledge that they could possibly, right at their hand, at their fingertips.

And so it is so important to help them understand what is truth. Let's turn to Doctrine and Covenants section one, verse 16. Let's highlight that. And will you read this for us? I wrote next to verse 16, why we need eternal truth. They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way.

And after the image of his own God, whose image is in the likeness of the world and whose substance is that of an idol, which waxeth old and shall perish in Babylon, even Babylon the great, which shall fall. Thank you. And then Elder Pingree went on to say this in his talk. Truth helps us avoid deception, discern good from evil, receive protection and find comfort in healing.

Truth can also guide our actions, make us free, sanctify us and lead us to eternal life. So right there, if that isn't the best reason to seek and look for truths, I don't know what is. So we're going to do that. So now what we're going to do is in the next segment, we are going to find out how to find eternal truth and what that looks like in our lives.

We'll do that next.

Segment 2

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Kathryn, tell me when you lose something that's very important to you, what steps do you take to find them? Well, first of all, I panic. Very good, yes. And then I ask everybody around me to help me find it. And I search in all the places, and if it's really hard, I'm digging through cushions, and I'm digging through my pockets, like, I just search high and low until I can try and find it.

Now I've put air tags on everything that's super important to me that I lose so that I can hit a button and and follow the sound to find it. That's brilliant. Okay, one of my daughters asked for an air tag for Christmas because she loses her keys All the time. That has her wallet attached to it. So does my husband.

I was like, just put it where it belongs. So does your husband. It just seems simple, right? Put it back where it belongs. But it's not that easy. Apparently. No, it's not. And then your kids move it and then you don't know where anything is. And yeah. Oh my gosh. Usually searching for things of other [00:10:00] people.

There you go. I usually can find other people's stuff, just not my own. Yeah. I always know where my kid shoes are. Okay. I want us to take this idea because Kathryn, you answered perfectly and we're going to add one more to it. So if you're searching for something, you panic, you ask for help, then you search diligently.

You put an air tag on it. I love that. We're going to add to that list to pray. Because my daughter who loses stuff all the time has learned that she can pray to find things. And how did I forget that most? Hey, listen, sometimes we do forget that step. I remember my daughter when she was really young, learned that she could pray to find things.

And I remember one time somebody we knew lost something and she goes, Oh, I'll just pray. God always answers my prayers. Like she believed that at the, I remember thinking, Oh, it's going to be rough when he doesn't. Oh, I don't want to be there. And then. He does. Yes, he does. He does. Okay. So how then do we find truth in the scriptures?

Because if you feel like you're going to panic, you've got to ask for help. You're going to search and you're going to pray. Let's read what Elder Pingree said about finding truth in scripture. So Kathryn, can you read this quote for us? Yeah, God reveals doctrinal truths through prophets and the Holy Ghost confirms those truths to us and helps us apply them.

We must seek and be prepared to receive these spiritual impressions when they come. We must, we are most receptive to the witness of the spirit when we are humble, pray sincerely and steady God's words and keep his commandments. Once the Holy Ghost confirms a specific truth to us, our understanding deepens as we put that principle into practice.

Amen. Over time, as we consistently live the principle, we gain a sure knowledge of that truth. Okay, so talk to me about this. We've, we've been asked to find eternal truths, or we've been asked to find what is true. So tell me, how does the Holy Ghost do that for us? Sum up what he said. Um, I, well, I like this that be prepared to receive spiritual impressions and then to act on those spiritual impressions.

And I think it's going to take work. I think sometimes we go into reading our scriptures or to receive answers and we don't understand or we don't apply the principle of work. Reading the scriptures requires work. It requires, like, spiritual sweat. I like that. Spiritual sweat. Oh my gosh, I better write that down.

We have to put in the effort and understand that God will answer. I think we have to be willing to accept how he answers, to act on those principles, put those, how Elder Pingree said, put that principle into practice. Yeah. But just like sometimes finding things like an air tags, a shortcut, right? There's no, there's no shortcuts to having the Holy Ghost confirm our spirit, the spiritual truths we have to put in the effort and the work I would stood out to me at the end of that paragraph was when he says over time.

As we consistently live the principle, we gain a sure knowledge of that truth that stood out to me because I think of some things in the gospel of Jesus Christ that have taken time for me to learn that truth. I wasn't given all truth at eight years old when I was baptized, and every aspect of the gospel required me to put in the time, put in the effort and even wait it out.

Because I remember on my mission, I prayed to know if Joseph Smith was a prophet and if the Book of Mormon was true. And I fully expected to have this head to toe spiritual experience where the Spirit confirmed to me, yes, it is true. I didn't get that. And then I just, I just woke up the next day and put on my skirt and went tracting.

And that was crazy to me because there I am, a missionary, and I don't really know if Joseph Smith's a prophet, but I'm telling everybody he is, and I would not receive a witness of that truth for 10 more years. As a seminary teacher, last period of the day as I'm reading the Joseph Smith story out loud to my students, and I'm sobbing, the Spirit's witnessing to me, Yeah, what you're reading is true.

And I remember looking at my kids going, this, you guys, this really happened, this is true! And they go, Duh, Sister Euselec. We all know that. And I'm like, I've never known. It took me forever. I'm 32 years old. And I, I now know this is true. So I, I love that consistently live the principle and over time you'll gain truth.

I want to know from you, Kathryn, has there ever been an aspect of the gospel that you learned over time? I think most aspects of the gospel I've learned over time. And like for me with Joseph Smith, I questioned that all. Through my whole mission, especially, and it wasn't until I remember at the like, towards the end of my mission, I was on a street corner and I was telling the Joseph Smith story in in German.

It's the only part of the discussion that I still have memorized in German. And I was I was [00:15:00] telling the Joseph Smith story. And just like you, it I just knew it. I knew it for the first time. And, and I think of elder Packers, one of his favorite sayings, which I love is, uh, um, a testimony is found in the bearing of it.

It's in the action. Like one of my favorite African Proverbs is you pray with your feet. So you, you pray and then you get moving and you trust that the answers will come. Mine all, mine have taken years for many. Um, I remember a specific time when I went to Israel as a student, I did the BYU study abroad in Israel and I just thought I would have all these incredible experiences in the Holy Land and I went there and I wasn't having them and everybody would talk about this experience they were having.

And I just sat there and thought, well, what's wrong with me? Like, why am I not having that experience? Why am I not feeling that? Why, why are they having these experiences at the garden tomb? Then maybe something's wrong with me. And so I kept doing all the things, right? Praying and fasting and, and studying.

And it took months and months and I still wasn't feeling like there was an answer. And then I even started doubting if God was there. And I remember one night I came into our little apartment. There were four roommates in this little room and I went into the bathroom because it's the only place I could be alone.

I found that on my mission. I found that as a mom, sometimes it was the bathroom was the only place. And I turned on the water cause I didn't want anybody to hear me. And I just fell to the ground and I just prayed, God, are you. And at that point, the phone rang and my roommate said, Hey, Kathryn, the phone's for you.

And I took the phone into the bathroom with the long windy cord. And I sat down and was like, hello. And it was my dad. And he just said, Honey, I just feel like I need to call. And I said, Dad, I don't know. I don't, I don't know if God's there. I don't, I don't feel like any of my prayers are being answered.

And he actually sat with me for a long time and, and actually Covenants a lot about how prayers are answered and what I was looking for. And I was like, I'm not looking. for an angel, although that would be nice. But like this burning in the bosom that it talks about, like, what is that? And why don't, why am I not feeling that?

And he just walked through how the spirit works. And then before he hung up, he said this, Honey, know that I know. And trust in that and rely on that until you can find out for yourself. And I hung up the phone and for the first time in years, I felt the sense of relief and peace because I knew that my dad knew and I knew that my dad wouldn't lie to me.

And I have held onto that. And now as a teacher, I say the same thing to my students, know that I know. And gradually as you do the work and over time and over experiences, you can come to understand. And as Elder Pingree says, we can gain knowledge of that truth over time. I think we expect things to happen all at once.

And that would be nice. And maybe that's how some people receive answers, but that is not how I have ever received my answers. It's gradual and it's time. And in doing the things like you said, in doing those things, you kept, you kept tracting. You kept putting one foot in front of the other. Like we don't stop, we just continue to act.

And answers come that way. Katharine, that story was so good. I loved that you just shared that with us because I just wrote that down, what your dad said, know that I know. And I just had an aha. And I thought right there, that's why we've been asked to find eternal truth this year as we study the scriptures, because you might not find one.

while you're reading that certain section this year, but someone did one of my guests will. And so if you're listening to one person say, know what I know, know what I learned as I studied this, then that is how we build the foundation. That is so cool, Kathryn. Oh, I love you. And I love your dad. I actually, this is a part of podcast.

Can I just show you something? Please, please do. Um, my daughter, when she went on her, when she, when my daughter went on her mission, my dad wasn't doing very well. And so she had this made for me to give it to me. It's all pictures of my dad with Mill that I know in the middle. And when my dad passed away and she was on her mission.

She, this, like she had given it to my husband to give to me. And so I like keep this in my office because honestly, like I still, there are times where I still hold on to that. So I'll hold on to those [00:20:00] truths while I learn and practice and discover more. Oh, Kathryn, I love that. I'm weeping. That picture.

I know. That was beautiful. Okay. Thank you. Everyone write that down. Know what I know. Because that's going to be what we talk about for the rest of this time. And it also has taught me a lot as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints is what, why do we have a community? Why church?

It's also to share the truth that we learned because maybe, like you said, maybe there's a truth that I learned that I can share that somebody else is like, I need that. I need to hold on to that truth. Yeah. And we need to, we need to share, we need to help each other and know that I know there's strength in that community.

I feel like that's the theme of this entire episode today. Know that I know. What's your dad's name? Robert Daines. Robert Daines. Know that I know. Robert Daines. I'm going to quote him forever on that. Oh, that's so good. Oh, I love that. Okay. Well, here's what we're going to do then in the next segment, we are going to dig into an eternal truth and probably One of the most important ones, because it's one of the first things we're taught in section one of the Doctrine and Covenants.

And it's kind of cool because we're going to discover what a male convert and a female champion of women rights has to do with eternal truths. We'll do that next.

Segment 3

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So you probably recognize that hymn or that song. I think it's so cool. You guys, you're going to love this story. So that is the song we thank the Oh God for a prophet, but this hymn has the most wonderful background story. Here it is. It, the lyrics were written by a man by the name of William Fowler. Now he was orphaned at age 15.

Then at age 19, he was introduced to the church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints, and he was baptized by a man by the name of JV Long in 1849. This man and his wife, Ellen had three children. And at the age of 20, he served a mission from 1850 to 1854 in England. Four year mission. While Fowler was on his mission, he wrote the hymn text, We Thank Thee O God For A Prophet.

Now, President Joseph F. Smith related a story about being in England and hearing this for the first time, and he said, quote, Brother Fowler brought this new song to a meeting where it was sung for the first time, unquote. Now, Fowler immigrated to the Utah Territory in 1863, and then he died two years later at the age of 35.

So young. So this young man wrote the lyrics to We Thank Thee O God For A Prophet, but he didn't write the music. The tune was written by a woman named Caroline Elizabeth Sarah Norton. She's remembered principally as a poet, pamphlet writer, and a champion of women's rights in Great Britain. And her unhappy and tumultuous marriage gave the impetus for her fight for greater rights for women.

She wrote the tune of this song with completely different words, and thus this tune was taken by William Fowler, who then set the lyrics, We Thank Thee O God for a Prophet, to this new hymn. And the use of this hymn and this tune is guaranteed in its immortality, for there has never been another use of that melody for a different hymn.

So the tune has been given the name of Fowler. I feel that was pretty cool. Now here's the eternal truth in section one of the Doctrine and Covenants. Let's turn to section one and we're going to read verses four through six that has to do with this song. Okay, Kathryn, will you read that for us? Verses four through six, please.

And the voice of warning shall be unto all people, by the mouths of my disciples, whom I have chosen in these last days. And they shall go forth, and none shall stay them, for I the Lord have commanded them. Behold, this is mine authority, and the authority of my servants, and my preface unto the book of my commandments, which I have given them to publish unto you, O inhabitants of the earth.

Now, we're going to cross reference those verses, and we're just going to put verses 17 and 18, still in Section 1. So let's skip over to 17 and 18, and I'll read these. Wherefore, I, the Lord, knowing the calamity which shall come upon the inhabitants of the earth, called upon my servant Joseph Smith, Jr., and spake unto him from heaven, and gave him commandments, and also gave commandments to others, that they should proclaim these things unto the world, and all this that it might be fulfilled, which was written by the prophets.

Now we're going to put another cross reference, put 23 through 28 and bracket off verses 23 through 28, because it talks about the inverse [00:25:00] 23, the fullness of the gospel will be proclaimed to the weak and simple and to the ends of the world and before kings and rulers. The importance of these verses. is that those who hold authority to preach the gospel are not perfect, and they're not going to be perfect.

So let's go to another cross reference. Go to verses 37 through 39. So we got a little scripture chain here of this eternal truth. I love scripture chains. They're the best. I love them. I get so excited. I do too. Finish our scripture chain. Kathryn, will you please read verses 37 through 39 about these imperfect men.

Search these commandments, for they are true and faithful, and the prophecies and promises which are in them shall all be fulfilled. What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself. Though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by my own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.

For behold, and lo, the Lord is God, and the Spirit beareth record, and the record is true, and the truth abideth forever and ever. Amen. Thank you. Go to the very end of verse 38. What is the truth spoken of in the end of that verse? Whether by my own voice or the voice of my servants, it is the same. Yes.

Connect that to the song, We Thank Thee O God For A Prophet. What is the eternal truth that we are being taught in section one? The first thing we, like one of the main things that we need to know going into these doctrines and covenants that we're going to study this year. Yeah, is to listen to the words of the prophet.

And I actually love in verse one, Tammy, that the very first word of the restoration, the very first word is hearken, which hearken means to listen with the intent to obey. You bet it does. You want it? You want to know the Hebrew word? This is where it comes from. Yes, I do. Okay, it's Shema. S H E M A. And in Hebrew, the word here, or harken, means to obey.

There's no separate word for obey in Hebrew. It's the same word. And in fact, in the Bible, April 2020 General Conference. Our prophet teaches that. He teaches the Hebrew word Shema and says it means to hear with the intent to obey the Hebrew word. Like President Nielsen says, to hearken means to hear him, to hear what the Savior says and then to heed his counsel.

In these two words, hear him. God gives us the pattern for success, happiness, and joy in this life. Okay. This is so cool. I'm so glad you brought that up. Everyone turned to the introduction of your doctrine and covenants. Go to the page and it says at the top introduction, because in the very first paragraph of the introduction of the doctrine and covenants.

It tells us, this is so cool. I'm so glad you brought this up, Kathryn. Oh, this is so cool. So it starts out by saying the doctrine and covenants is a collection of divine revelations and inspired declarations given for the establishment and regulation of the kingdom of God on earth in the last days.

Now, Skip down because then it says that it's given to members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. The messages, warnings and exhortations are for the benefit of all mankind and contain an invitation to people everywhere to hear. And I highlighted the word here, right there, put Doctrine and Covenants 1 to hear, to hearken with the intent to obey the voice of the Lord Jesus Christ speaking to them for their temporal well being and their everlasting salvation.

That's why we have the Doctrine and Covenants. Oh, I love that you brought that up. And isn't that just the very first word of the restoration is to hear and obey. And then he talks to some. Um, teaches us about prophets to hear and obey. I think it's so profound. I'm wondering, when did you come to know that a prophet was called of God and to hear the prophets of words?

You know, I think that was gradual and over time. Um, and, and for me, especially, like I said before, sometimes my answers are come when I act. Actually, all of my answers come when I act. I remember when I was dating my husband, I dated him for a long time because I thought I should get this big answer. And it was at the end of a, we were both doing EFY, we're counselors and, um, there was a Sunday night devotional with all the counselors and we had been dating for over a year.

And Brad Wilcox was the session director and he came up to my husband and I, he's like, why aren't you guys married yet? And my husband was like, I don't know, ask her. And I'm like, Brad, because I want, like, I think I should have like a big answer. Right. This is a huge decision. And Brad said, Kathryn answers are like stoplights.

He said, what do you do when you come to a red light? And I said, You stop. And he goes, a green [00:30:00] light. And I'm like, you go. I'm winning this quiz at this point. I'm so smart. And he said, what do you do when you come to a yellow light? And I was like, uh, and he goes, no, really, what do you do? And I said, I step on the gas and I go.

And he said, most of our answers are yellow lights. And so for me, Um, with prophets and a trust, I, I, I trust God, I trust his prophets. And so if I hearken, which means to listen and obey, and then I do it and I trust, and I trust that those answers will come as I go through that yellow light. And that is honestly what has happened time and time for me.

Like, I, I have a feeling you should. You know, you should go on a mission. Oh, I don't, I don't really know. I'll go through that yellow light and then I have My answer come to me when when President Nelson was first called as a prophet, and I remember he, he challenged us with a few things. His first was to, to pray, to ask Heavenly Father how he feels about us.

And I thought, Oh, I don't. No, if I've done that in a while. And so I hearkened to the words of the prophet and I asked and, um, I hold on to the answer that I received of how God feels about me because I hearkened to a prophet. And so I think as I hearken is when I gained a testimony of prophets. Oh my goodness.

Thank you. I wrote my scriptures next to verse one to step on the gas. You're right. Like that. Like just hearken, just step on the gas and just go for it. I'm so grateful you shared that story. You're right. Most of our answers are yellow. Most of our questions and answers are yellow lights. Wow. That was, that was right there.

That is a truth I just learned. Isn't that awesome? That's an eternal truth. That is an eternal truth. Like most of our answers are yellow lights. Just step on the gas and go harken with the intent to obey and it will work out for you and trust that God will stop you if it's not right or he'll give you the green light.

You just trust expressed him because as we read in these verses, like he is a promise keeper. Yeah. That's what he says in all these, in all these verses that my word shall not pass away, but shall be fulfilled. And he says that like God's voice, God's promises will be fulfilled. So trust that and go. And in Alma 25, 17, he says he verified his word and to them in every particular.

Love that first, don't you? And so yeah, trust that he's going to verify his word. That's what he's saying about his prophets. That's what he's teaching us. Harkin trust. I'll verify and go. I was struck by this piece of information that I did not know. That when they were coming together to put together the doctrine and covenants, the council of elders met in 1831 to talk about publishing all of Joseph Smith's revelations.

And some of the people opposed the idea because they were embarrassed by Joseph's weakness in writing. And they worried that publishing the revelations might cause more problems for the saints. And, you know, I go back to this idea where it talks about in verses. You know, our verse, verses 23 through 28, where he's like, listen, they're not perfect.

They're not going to be the best. They are going to err. Yeah, you're right. Absolutely. I love how he addresses the concern right there in those verses, but it doesn't matter. Just step on the gas and go, because whether by my own voice or the voice of my servants, it is the same. And I love how you said you'll get a red light.

And aren't you so grateful? Yeah, that they have weaknesses. Are you so grateful for like the small things of the earth? Because that means God can use me, right? I know I have a lot more weaknesses than prophets, but that's also why I love the Old Testament is the messiness in there. I just think, wait, God was able to use them despite their weakness and because of their weakness.

And so to me, it's, it, I know that even at the very beginning of the restoration, when, what's that story where Joseph Smith comes and meets the, the new converts who have come and landed at the ship and he meets them and he's kind of dressed in his work clothes and, and somebody getting off the boats is a little surprised at Joseph's behavior and demeanor.

And he said, if you expect anything more than a man, you can get back on that ship and go home. And to me, that's just showing like, God will use all of us in our weakness and that is comforting to me. That is not worrisome to me. And it's a truth. Oh yeah. So good. So good. Okay. So we're going to continue [00:35:00] this discussion.

This, everyone listening, you can totally understand why. God wanted Kathryn on this episode, no doubt. We needed you for this whole episode, because here's what we're going to do in the next segment. Then we're going to talk about the promptings of the Holy Ghost, and we're going to put all of this stuff into action.

Then we'll do that next.

Segment 4

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So Kathryn, as a seminary and institute teacher, I want to know, how do you respond to the questions that your students asked? Like if you've ever been asked a question, you didn't know the answer to. All the time. What do you do? I, yeah, and actually just right before we were having this conversation, I got asked a really hard question that I don't have the answer to.

And there haven't been, I don't think there's a direct answer through revelation either. I mean, through prophetic revelation. And so I actually, I love hard, I love hard questions. Um, because I think we need to be asking hard questions. Our church was founded on a question, but I think there's a difference between asking an open and sincere question and then asking a question to like prove our prejudice.

Does that make sense? Like there's a difference in asking questions. Like you can go in a negative way to ask a question to prove our prejudice or to prove our disbelief or to go in and ask an open and sincere question. I love that you brought that up because here's what we want to know is God loves questions.

And I really appreciate how the Come Follow Me manual states it could be said that the Savior started the restoration of his gospel by responding to a question. And we know that. We have James chapter 1 verse 5. So go to Doctrine and Covenants 1 and somewhere on the page, I want you to write James 1 5 And the verse of scripture says, if any of you lack wisdom.

Let him ask of God. So right there, the scripture say, look, you can ask questions, but what we love are two words in this verse. It says that give us to all men liberally and upbraideth not, and it shall be given him the word liberally and upbraideth are what for me add so much depth to the idea that God loves questions because the word liberally comes from the Greek word haplos, and it means generously or with sincerity.

Sincerity. God generously is going to give us wisdom. So he gave it to all men liberally. He gave it to all men generously and upbraideth. Now this comes from the Greek word Onididzo and it means to disgrace or to scorn or reproach. I like to think of it as he won't be mad. I don't want to be in trouble ever with God.

I don't want him to be mad at me. And so it says right here that he will give to all men generously and he won't be mad about it. And it will be given him. I love that definition. Like he's not going to be upset because you're coming to him with a question. He really wants you to ask. And so here's a young 14 year old boy.

Isn't that awesome? It's the very first thing Joseph learns. It's like, I have a question and God answered it. What? Yeah. It should be so comforting to us to know and understand that not only will we have questions, but we should have questions and that God wants us to have questions. And really, I think it's, it's, it's part of our discipleship is to really Dive in and search and find answers to our questions that that is the sign of our discipleship.

It absolutely is. And so it makes perfect sense that every time someone had a question and they came to Joseph or any time Joseph had a question, he was like, Oh, I'll just ask God, let's just find out what he wants us to do. Like when we get to section 20, we're going to love that. Like, well, what do we do about sacrament?

Do we have to have wine? No, actually, we love that his prayer gets answered and that is consistent throughout the entire Doctrine and Covenants. Something unique about the background that we want to know. So going into section one of the Doctrine and Covenants, first and foremost, go to verse six, because it tells us what the title of section one is.

And we've already read this, but we're going to highlight it. Verse six says, Behold, this is mine authority and the authority of my servants and my preface. Highlight that right there. It's called my preface unto the book of my commandments, which I have given them to publish unto you. Oh, inhabitants of the earth.

Now, section one is not the first section given. It's not the first revelation given. In fact, the date is November 1st, 1831. Did you know? And I did not know this, Kathryn, that there had been more than 60 written revelations already given to the prophet up to this point. So they didn't know that. Yeah. I thought that was surprising to me.

So he's already got 60 revelations written and now they're thinking we should probably put these in a book for members to be able to read and understand. So they called together a group. They called together sort of like a, it was a conference on [00:40:00] November 1st and the conference was held at the home of John and Elsa Johnson in Hiram, Ohio.

And a committee of elders. Who were Sidney Rigdon, Oliver Cowdery and William E. McClellan got together and Joseph said, just write a preface, just write an introduction to the Doctrine and Covenants. That's how we'll introduce all of the revelations we're going to put in. And they could not come up with a preface.

They couldn't write it. So after this attempt, Joseph Smith asked, okay, what should we write? And the revelation was given. And that is Doctrine and Covenants section one. That is what the Lord wants us to know as we're going into all of these. Awesome revelations that Joseph will receive. And so we have it called the Lord's Preface.

And some are also on that page where it says, Dr. Nick Helmets, we're writing so many things. Let's write our acronym for the year. We have a cool acronym we're using. It's a S K, the word ask, and we're going to have apply to always seeking more knowledge. That's what Joseph does for the entirety of the Doctrine and Covenants.

He is always seeking more knowledge. And I just wanted to know this from you, Kathryn, and you already shared so many great stories with us. Have you ever had a question about a church doctrine or something? You were like, I don't know. Let's find out about this or anything you've struggled with when it comes to policy or truth?

Well, and I think, oh yes. What did you do? What, when I, and especially. For a long time growing up, I kept wondering where my role was as a woman in the church. Yes. Um, especially cause I'm very different than my, my mom and my sister. And I thought maybe I was too feisty or too outspoken or, and I just thought, where, where is my role?

Where can I serve? And so, um, I am so grateful for a prophet that is pleading with us. To understand priesthood power. And I think that is something that I have spent the last decade really diving into because I've had those questions like, do like growing up, we never talked about women having priesthood power, but I always felt like there was something that I wasn't understanding.

And so as I've listened to a prophet who's asked us to receive our own revelation, that the only way we can understand priesthood powers through revelation. And so I have, like the last decade, I have really dug in and searched. And try to understand the doctrine of, of God's power. Um, and that is something where my testimony and my understanding has grown and strengthened and my role in like in gathering Israel, I understand my role in gathering Israel and as a mother because I've dug into questions that I've had and things that I haven't understood.

Let me ask you this then, going back to our quote from Elder Pingree, where he specifically points out that we will receive impressions as they come, we'll receive spiritual impressions. What does that feel like for Kathryn Davis? Because you said you'd love an angel to come and that's never happened to you.

So we know angels probably, I welcome an angel. And isn't this like the question, don't you receive this question all the time? How do I know if it's the spirit or how do I know if it's my own thoughts? So what do you answer? How do you know? Some of it comes through trusting and I, I do, I never feel this huge burning in the bosom.

In Doctrine and Covenants, it talks about that and that doesn't speak to me and actually in verse two, 24, it says that he will speak to their, unto my servants and their weakness after the manner of their language. So I believe God speaks all languages and, and my son speaks football. God spoke to him through football.

My daughter was a swimmer. He spoke through her to her through swimming. So for me, it's more like, how do I feel the sphere? I feel joy. I feel like a rush of adrenaline. In a way, and I've just had to learn to recognize, Oh, that is how God speaks to me. And it might, and it could, and it can be different at different times.

Um, but I have to trust, like Camilla Kimball said, never suppress a generous thought. So when something, when something popped into my mind, I know that's the spirit because that's how the spirit communicates with me in my head and in my heart. So I just do it. I don't question it anymore. Sometimes I question it and then.

I think I miss out on an opportunity to be his hands, but I just, the spirit speaks in so many [00:45:00] different ways and not in the ways that we're always expecting. For me, it's not the tingly, warm goose bumps. That's not how I feel the spirit. And so I think we just have to, we have to search and do the work to understand how the spirit speaks to us.

Oh, I love that you said that we have to do the work because I have friends were tingly is the way they feel the spirit for me. I'm like the most mundane blah person in the world when it comes to how I feel the spirit because here's how I feel. It just feels good. Like that's it for me. And I have thoughts that pop into my head.

They're not my own thoughts. I'm like, where did that come from? That's the spirit. It's in my language for sure. But impressions I received that I'm like, why would I think that? Oh, that feels good. All right. That's the spirit. And we love in Galatians where it talks about, you can feel it through love, joy.

I love how you said joys for you, peace, long suffering, Oh, long suffering for sure. Gentleness, patience, goodness, faith. I mean, all of those feelings are how you can feel the spirit. So if you're receiving words that come to your brain and I like how you said in your heart, in your head and in your heart, it matches.

For me, it's just a good feeling like, Oh yeah, that's good. That seems good. That seems right. Cause I know what it feels like when it's not. I don't feel that way. I feel confused. I feel like, I don't know. I'm just so blah or I forget the thing I'm thinking about. Yeah. And one of the best quotes about understanding how the Spirit speaks to us is by Amy Wright.

And she says she likes to ask. People and young adults, wherever she goes, how they feel the spirit and and some one, it was a soccer player and she said she felt it like a rush of adrenaline. Another one was, um, a surfer. And she said it felt like a warm wave washed over her. And then she said she asked one young man and he said, I don't feel sister, right?

I don't feel anything. And she said, interesting. Tell me more about that. And he said, to me, it just makes sense. He's very analytical, very thoughtful. And then she said, imagine if he was told his whole life that it was warm and tingly. He would think that the spirit never communicated with him. And so for him, it, it thoughtful and made sense.

And we, we have to understand how the spirit speaks to us and don't expect, that's what I did in Israel. I expected the spirit to speak to me like it was speaking to everybody else. And then I thought, well, I'm not feeling anything. Oh my goodness. And the examples that she gave just there were three different people.

Who experienced it in the ways that they know, like the surfer with a warm wave. That is so cool. Right? Don't you think that's what the matter of their language is exactly what I interpret it. Yes, absolutely. And it's different for everybody and it's real. Everyone's allowed it. Everybody. Can have that opportunity to receive revelation.

So let's do this then Kathryn in the next segment, everyone, this is going to be exciting because in the next segment, Kathryn and I are going to go through section one and we're going to point out some truths. And we put this to the test where we asked, we prayed and we waited and we'll tell you what we found in the next segment.

Segment 5

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So this year I did something new. You guys are going to love this. Cause I talk a lot about the things I mark my scriptures with. I chose a very specific color. It's a new highlighter color that I don't have. It's light purple, and this is going to be my eternal truth. Marker. So every time I find one, I'm going to highlight it light purple.

That's just my color. I don't know why I chose it, but I don't have this color in any of my other scripture markers. And I thought this is my year. So every time I find an eternal truth, I'm going to highlight it. Now there's, there probably should be more purple on this page. I'm not going to lie. Oh look, you have a purple.

There you go, Kathryn. This one's pink. So I'll do pink. Okay. So let's do this. Kathryn and I are going to go through and share. We're just going to take. One turn at a time and share with you what we found, what were some truths that we found in section one of the Doctrine and Covenants. All right, Kathryn, we'll start with you.

Go. Verse two. Um, Verily the voice, verse of the Lord is unto all men. But I love the end of this where he says, and there is none to escape, neither ear that shall not hear, neither heart that shall not be penetrated. He is going to reach all of his children. all of them. And so can I trust that as a teacher, as a mom, can I trust that God's going to reach them?

And he said he will. So I love, to me, that's an eternal truth. So I love that. Okay. Um, I, I really liked the eternal truth in verse 32. This one I learned when I was 21 years old. It took me a while to figure this out. [00:50:00] Nevertheless, he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven. And many of you know my repentance story, but it did.

I wish I'd known. how wonderful the power of repentance was when I was a teenager and I didn't wait until I was on my mission. But I absolutely know for a fact, for an absolute truth that when you repent and you keep the commandments, you can be forgiven of everything. Everything. And I love to teach this to teenagers right now when I go speak because they'll say to me, well, you don't know what I've done, lady.

Like I once had a student come in and cry in my office and say, it's over, it's done. There's no way God can forgive me. And I was like, Oh, sweet thing. Of course you can be forgiven. And she was relentless. She's like, no, you don't understand. I've done some terrible things. And I was like, honey, really, I promise.

I know this. You can be forgiven. And she looked at me, she goes, no, I've done really bad things. And I got to be honest, Kathryn, I looked at her and for a minute, I did say, you know, Have you killed a man? She goes, No, I've never killed anyone. I'm like, Oh, okay, listen, we're fine. You're good. You're fine.

You're fine. It doesn't matter. Go see your bishop. You absolutely can be 100 percent forgiven. And I have a testimony of that. And I know it's true. That's my truth. And I, and I think that those are some of the most powerful moments I've had as a mom and especially as a teacher when, when students tell me things and I'm like, you're okay.

You're okay. Yeah, like there's no panic. There's no, because I know that eternal truth. I've experienced in that my, my life and I've seen it in the lives of so many others. I know that. So why, why would I worry and why would I not trust that? Like we're going to be, you're going to be okay. You can be forgiven.

Yeah. And you just want to go, know that I know, know that I know that's true. That verse. Okay. Kathryn, keep going. What do you know? I, I actually like this one. I used to not like this verse at all and tell President Nelson, um, first 12 prepare ye pre prepare ye for that which is to come for the Lord is nigh.

Oh, he's coming and he's coming with healing in his wings. And I, that is an eternal truth to me. And I look forward to that. And I glory in that. And President Nelson is like, are you ready for what's to come? So it's also like, I want to be ready. Oh, my gosh. I, I highlighted that and I felt it when you read that.

And I wrote Jesus is coming next to verse 12. Oh, okay. Verse 10. Ben, since we're there, that is another truth that I know. Know that I know until the day when the Lord shall come to recompense and to every man according to his work and measure to every man according to the measure which he has measured to his fellow man.

I put cross reference Alma 41. Verses 14 through 15. It's called the law of restoration. I learned that when a man by the name of Cal Stevens, who was an institute teacher, he's brilliant up at Weber state. He told the greatest story about how his son didn't want to pass the sacrament one Sunday because he said, I always do it every Sunday, let somebody else do it and nobody else was doing it.

And Cal taught him and said, that's fine. You don't have to do that, but know this, that when you start to measure what you're willing to do for the Lord, he will measure that back at judgment day. You can measure all you want. That's fine. I'm not going to tell you not to pass or whatever, but just know the moment you start to measure out your service is when God will measure back to you what you give.

And when he said that in my heart, I knew I'm all right. That's it. I will say yes to callings. I'm not going to measure it out. And yes, it's the same five people or it feels that way. Let me be one of those five. I will clean the church. I will do whatever it takes. Like I love this idea. He's really saying like, don't, don't measure.

Just do. That's it. So, I know that's true. Oh, good. Um, I love verse 30 in the middle, and this is, know that I know, um, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, that this is a living church, that we are in the restoration. My goodness, we are. What does that mean? Living. Because like, I think it's awesome when we talk about it and, and when little kids get up and say, I know that the church is true.

And I love that. Like, I don't care if a five, like we had a seven year, a six year old get up on Sunday, six year old. I know the church is true. If that's his foundation, let's, let's let that foundation build because he's going to learn that it's also living. What does it mean to be a true and living church?

I think that's. To me, um, the power, because it's living because we're led by prophets. It's living because we're, you know, President [00:55:00] Nelson, eat your vitamins and get your rest because Things will change that more revelation will come that will continue to grow and learn and it's living because of Prophets it's living because of priesthood power and it's living because it's in me it's in my home

and he and I think it's I just like that it's living because of the ordinances that the church provides That, that the covenants bring power, that covenants bring peace, that covenants give us access to God's power. And that is living. Oh, absolutely. I like how you connected that. Living is covenants, especially in the idea of, are you living your covenants?

That's so good, Katherine. And I think it's about a relationship. Covenants are about relationships, right? Our relationship with our Father in heaven and our relationship with the Savior. And that's maybe like living to become like them. Maybe that's also part of a living church. Because when you said their names, you said becoming like our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ in my brain, I thought who are living like they are living water.

Yes. All of it. Some of the connection to that word living, the living water and what it can do for us and what the gospel of Jesus Christ can do for the whole earth. Going back to that verse 30 upon the face of the whole earth. Oh, that's good. Yeah. And it just, it doesn't say just. Truth. Right? Right.

Because there's truth everywhere. Truth is truth. Wow. Yes. And every, every religion has truth. Every religion teaches, teaches truth, but the difference is living church. Yeah. Oh, I like that you said that. Absolutely. And I think it's important for us to recognize that there is truth in every church. You know, in, um, February 15th, 1978, the first presidency made an official statement about that.

And we, we have. Love it. Cause it says the church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints does not claim a monopoly on goodness and truth. There are countless people throughout the world who are examples of integrity and goodwill and true and wholesome principles can be found in various religions and ethical systems throughout the world.

Each of us has the right to believe and worship as individual conscience leads us. And then it goes on to say though, and that's where it defines as you beautifully did for us the idea that it's living. And that we have the priesthood and we have a covenant relationship with him, which is a huge difference.

So thank you, Kathryn. That was awesome. Okay. So there we have all of our answers. Know what we know. So then in the last segment, we are going to ask you a question that connects all of this together and we'll do that next.

Segment 6

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So as I said at the very beginning, how we always start out by saying, what did the Holy Ghost teach you? We're going to end that with today because the whole focus has been how the spirit teaches us truth. Okay. So, Kathryn Davis, my final question for you is, in this segment, what did the Holy Ghost teach you today?

What is something new that you learned that is true? I loved, um, when we talked about the word hearken and what that means in Hebrew. I didn't know that. I knew that hearken meant to listen and then to heed, but that it's the same thing. And, and I've just thought about whether I'm listening in sacrament or when I'm listening at conference.

Am I listening or am I hearkening? And I want to go back and, and read conference, read some of those talks and, and hearken. Is there something that I need to really to know and then do? Oh, I like that. Yeah. I mean, it's pretty powerful when the prophet pointed out that the first word of the Doctrine and Covenants is hearken.

That's significant. Yeah. Yeah. And, and so I, I know you have your pink pen or your purple pen for listening to Eternal Truths. Yeah. But I think what I want to do as I start studying the Doctrine, Doctrine and Covenants and, and Mark the Eternal Truths, I want to think, so what? And what? Right? So if that's a truth and [01:00:00] what?

That I think I'm going to focus a lot of my study on, on that. If I want to hearken, then as I listened to like what you talked about, um, about repenting and forgiveness and what is there something that I Well, obviously every day we should engage in, in repentance. So not just know that truth, heed, act, live that truth.

Beautifully spoken. Absolutely. I totally agree. Thank you. Okay. Mine is, and I wrote it down. There were two. Um, when you said you pray with your feet, the African proverb. That hit my heart. And I love that because you, I mean, it's everywhere in scripture, but not said just exactly like that, but when you said it, I knew that was true.

You pray with your feet. Yes, you get on your knees and you ask Heavenly Father for help. And then you get up and you start working. And that idea, like everything's a yellow light. Just, just go until the Lord tells you to stop that. The whole thing connected so perfectly for me. And I, I want everyone in my family, I want my kids to know that when you are asking important questions, just, just go for it until the Lord puts a stop to it because that action is what the Lord requires of us.

And it's what we read from Elder Pingree in his talk when he just said, it takes time and it also takes work. Like you got to just wake up the next day and put on your skirt and keep tracting. It might take 10 years to get the answer. And don't you think that shows so much trust that Heavenly Father has in us?

Oh yeah, because as parents, I don't think we'd have the same trust in our kids, right? So I want to tell them everything right now. And can I trust, can I trust my kids? Can I let them, can I let them go? I remember specifically once with one of my sons, um, He was, was considering this big decision. I'm like, well, you should go pray about it.

And he said, Oh, I don't do that. I don't get answers. And I'm like, well, now's the time to start. So go pray about that. And he came back a couple of weeks later and he said, this is my answer. And I thought, well, that's the wrong answer, but then I just thought, can I trust, like Heavenly Father is telling us to go.

Um, can I trust my, that my children and my students and that I will have the same experience? Well, yeah. And especially when other Pingree says over time, because in my, in your parent brain, you're like, that's five minutes. Like you better come up with the answer pretty quick, like, but that over time as you and I have both expressed has taken years for people to learn.

And so, and there's plenty of time, can we all just breathe for a minute? There's time beyond this life. There's time on the other side of the veil. There is time. There's an infinite amount of time, infinite amount of time. So yes. Oh my gosh. So many truths just in what we said. This is so cool. I think we just took away the fear of finding eternal truths.

So Kathryn and I are going to just challenge everybody this week to look for eternal truths or look for what the Holy Ghost is teaching you that is true. You're like, Oh yeah, that is true. It feels right. It feels good. And if you aren't sure, we're going to ask you to follow. The Council of Robert Danes.

Know that I know that's all you can do. Well, that would make my dad so happy. He is happy. Wow. Well, Kathryn, thank you for joining us. That's it. That's it. I love that we ended with your father's name. Robert H. Danes. You know, honestly, that would, like, Yeah. Means a lot. Sorry, he passed away, and I just love that.

Yeah, and I love your dad. Know that I know, so Thank you, friend. We're done. Thank you. Well, here's my question to everyone listening. What truth did you learn? Go join our group on Facebook or on Instagram to share what you've learned from this episode. You can even ask questions as I love to answer. And then at the end of the week on a Saturday, we're going to post this specific question and please share.

I'd love to know what you've learned. I can't wait to read your comments. Comment on the post that relates to this specific lesson and share your thoughts. You can get to both our Facebook and Instagram by going to the show notes for this episode at ldsliving. com slash Sunday on Monday. And it's not a bad idea to go there anyway, because it's where we're going to have links to all the references and a transcript of this whole discussion.

So go check it out. The Sunday on Monday study group is a desert bookshelf plus original brought to you by LDS living. It's written and hosted by me, Tammy Uzelac Hall. And today are incredible, beautiful, wonderful study group participant with Kathryn Danes Davis. And you can find more information about her at ldsliving. com slash Sunday on Monday. Our podcast is produced by Cole Wissinger and me. It is edited and mixed [01:05:00] by Cole Wissinger and our executive producer is Erin Hallstrom. Thanks for being here. We'll see you next week. And please remember that you are God's favorite.

Robert M. Danes is the General Authority. That's my brother. Robert H. Danes is my dad. So people might think, Oh, Robert Danes, like the, yeah, that's my brother.