The following transcript is intended to aid in your study. However, while we try to go through the transcript, our transcripts are primarily computer-generated and often contain errors. Please forgive the transcripts’ imperfections.
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[00:00:00] Doctrine and Covenants section 19 is one of the only accounts of our Savior, Jesus Christ, telling us about his own personal sufferings of his atoning sacrifice. It is a deeply personal section for our Savior. It's also deeply personal for Martin Harris, who it was directed towards, and it's deeply personal for all of us.
Who need a reminder of who the savior is and what he did for us. And this section also has us wondering, what is the gospel of Jesus Christ worth to me? What am I willing to sacrifice to help build God's kingdom? And this entire section ends with a powerful request from the Lord. Welcome to the sundown Monday study group, a Deseret bookshelf plus original brought to you by LDS living, where we take the come follow me lesson for the week.
And we really dig into the scriptures together. I'm your host, Tammy Uzelac Hall. If you're new to our study group, please follow the link in our description, and it will explain how you can best use this podcast to enhance your come follow me study. Just like our listening friend, Rosie Nelson from Elkridge, Utah.
Hi, Rosie. Okay. Now another awesome thing about our study group, and you know what it is, it's that each week we're joined by two of my friends. So it's always a little bit different. And today we have two new guests. I met them last year and I knew we needed to have them on the podcast. I'm so excited to introduce you to Angie Allen and BJ Allen.
Hello friends. Hello. Hi. Yay. Okay. Tell us a little bit about yourselves. You're married. I'll tell, I'll just spoil that right there. Married. Yes, we're married. We, we've been married for almost 20 years and we have six kids. We live in Provo, Utah right now, but we've kind of had a, a trek through the Midwest throughout the years of our six kids.
They've been born in five different places. Wow. So, what else? We've lived in Provo for about four years now. Wow. I can't believe you've been married 20 years. If you were to see her, go and look at their bio, you guys. You can find those in our show notes at LDSliving. com slash Sunday on Monday. You must have married her when she was 10.
Angie, you look so young. You said 20 years. I'm like, holy cow. You both look really young. She does look almost the same as the day we got married. I believe in BJ. This is kind of fun because there's, here's how I know the two of them. And I, I think this is so awesome is that we were at a, I don't even know, a banquet last summer for artists and authors, and we were assigned to the same table.
We got to sit and BJ was a new author. You guys, he has a book that just came out and I'm going to let him tell us a little bit about it, but I'm going to highly recommend it for Easter. It would be such a good Easter book. BJ, tell us about your book. Yeah, so the book is called The Compensating Power of Christ, and it's about how Christ makes right the unfairness and the weakness of life.
We talk about the atonement in a lot of different ways. We talk about how the atonement was meant to comfort us, to strengthen us. Then there's the traditional ways we talk about the atonement. He forgives us of our sins and helps us to be resurrected. But there's this other aspect of the atonement that's sometimes talked about.
In the scriptures and in conference talks about how Christ makes right the unfairness of life. And I kind of always wondered, like, what, what does that mean? So I really kind of just made it like a multi year study. And that's what the book is, is. It's been kind of a, an inside description of what has been taught about this compensating power.
And, you know, there's various ways that Christ does compensate us. That could be when difficult things happen in our lives that we don't deserve. You know, when we're born into bad family situations, how does, how does God and how does Christ make right those situations? But there's other ways that Christ compensates us for our own weaknesses that could be our personal weaknesses as we struggle with faith and try to make Christ a bigger part of our life.
That could also be a parent or a church leader who has weaknesses and wonders, how does that impact those under my stewardship? That's not fair to them, but that, you know, they, I have to be their bishop versus. President Nelson, like surely he would do a better job. And the book is really just about how Christ bridges those gaps.
And it's just been fun, such a fun experience for me to write, but also to be able to talk about it and see kind of just how it resonates and with people and helps them on their healing process. Wow. And that my friends is why I invited BJ and his wife to be on this specific episode of section 19. And lest you think Angie is not one wit.
I mean, she is [00:05:00] right with BJ in the way she thinks and in her testimony. And so I just think this is going to be such a great discussion and his book is great. It's very engaging and I love the artwork. So it's, I recommend it. I had never considered that aspect of the atonement of Jesus Christ. And so it'll be interesting to see how that theme sort of weaves through our discussion of doctrine and covenant section 19, because like we said, it's a personal account of the savior expressing to us what it was like for him in Gethsemane.
So knowing that and knowing our guests, grab your scriptures and let's dig into doctrine and covenant section 19. Okay, you two, tell me, what did the Holy Ghost teach you as you studied this section? Okay, so as I read and studied this section, uh, one of the things that stood out the most to me is how much of this section Um, there's so many hints in this section of things President Nelson has asked us to do recently, the invitations that he's given us, and then, like, the section starts out of Christ introducing himself to Martin in the And what's the most recent invitation that we've been given?
President Nelson has urged us to find time each week to learn more about the atonement of Jesus Christ. And then, I mean, I don't know how much you want me to give away before we start, but like, President Nelson called on us to learn how to receive revelation, right? And that the mysteries of heaven want to be open to us.
And The Lord tells that to Martin, that, um, I want you to know, even as my apostles know. And then, and then so much of the section is about repentance. President Nelson's asked us to find the joy in daily repentance. And then it goes on, like at the end of the section, um, Martin, the Lord tells Martin about gathering.
Israel and Prez Nelson's talked to us about that, right? And then as like I zoomed out and thought about the section as a whole, it almost felt like the Lord is asking Martin, like, don't get, don't get caught up in the details. Like, I know the farm is a big deal. I know paying for the Book of Mormon is going to be super hard for you.
But like zoom out and think about the big picture. What am I asking you to do? Like, We've got to get this book out into the world. That's how the restoration begins, and President Nelson's also asked us to zoom out, right? Like, think celestial. Don't get caught up in the, in the details of the hard because they're there just like they were for Martin.
But as we focus on him, like Martin's being asked to do, it makes everything else more doable. So that's what stood out to me, but that's fantastic. I love how you connected it to everything we've been asked to do by our prophet. And when you said, I remember him telling us that we need to study more about the Savior Jesus Christ.
So if anyone hasn't begun that challenge, this is a great place to start. Start in section 19 if you want to learn more about our Savior. That was great, Angie. Thank you. That was great. How about you, BJ? Yeah. I mean, as you can see, my wife is amazing. And I'll say that she actually contributed quite a bit to the book as well.
So she gets, she gets the credit if you like, if you read it and you like it, she gets some credit as well. Um, what stood out to me, Hammy, was what you had mentioned earlier is that this is one of the only few parts in the scriptures where we get a first person insight. into what the atonement was like for Jesus to do.
He's teaching us in first person what his atonement was like. We get him describing himself, his sacrifice, how hard it was, and, and he gets really detailed. He says, look, this is how hard it was. So this is Doctrine and Covenants 19 verses 15 and 16. He says, this is Christ describing his atonement. How sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not, for behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer, if they would repent.
I think what makes this first person description so special Is when we consider this as a section to an individual person, he's, he, this is him talking to Martin Harris one on one saying, Martin, I know that what you're asked to do in terms of mortgaging your farm [00:10:00] to help pay for the Book of Mormon is hard, but let me tell you what I had to do that was really hard.
And so Martin here gets some pretty sterling, which, which we'll read about later. And I think sometimes when we read it, we're like, oh my, oh my gosh, like God's mad at Martin, but we'll talk later about how it's not, it's not that God's mad. It's that God really wants him to, to understand the intimacy of the atonement.
But we also get some beautiful comforting language in there, like I just read in terms of describing the atonement. And I just asked myself, like, why did, why did Christ choose this response to Martin's concern about being able to mortgage his farm? Essentially, Christ is saying to Martin, look, I went through something very hard.
And I also asked God if there was another way. Me, the greatest of all, asked God if I could not drink of the bitter cup and shrink. But in the end, I had to do this. Well, God asked me to do and I was willing to do as well. And I need you to be willing to do the same. That's a great message because so many people that I know and love are going through times right now that are so difficult and I think you're right.
I think that the Savior isn't trying to stick it to Martin. I think he's trying to be empathetic and say, I get what you're going through. It is so hard. And I think that's where the compensating power of the atonement comes into play is he introduces himself in the first verses, which we'll talk about in the next segment, but he's saying, look who I am.
I can do this for you. I can help you look what I've overcome. I have more power than anybody you're afraid of. And so this is going to be a really great discussion as we start to put the pieces together. Why did the Lord say these specific Things to Martin, and this will be the last revelation Martin Harris ever receives.
So kind of keep that in the back of your brain of all the things that he, this is it. This is the chance for the Lord to say, this is it, Martin, I'm going to give you what I got and hopefully this is going to help you for the rest of your life. So thank you to both of you for what you shared. Let's do this.
We're going to, one of the things I love in the come follow me manual is how it sets up our discussion for today. Angie, will you please read just this awesome paragraph and it's going to just guide us into the next segment. Yeah, you bet. Um, it took Martin and Lucy Harris years to acquire one of the finest farms in Palmyra, New York.
But in 1829, it became clear that the Book of Mormon could be published only if Martin mortgaged his farm to pay the printer. Martin had a testimony of the Book of Mormon, but Lucy did not. If Martin went forward with the mortgage and the Book of Mormon did not sell well, he would lose his farm. But his marriage at risk and damage his reputation in the community.
Although our circumstances are different from Martin's, at some time or another we all face difficult questions like those he faced. What is the gospel of Jesus Christ worth to me? What am I willing to sacrifice to help build God's kingdom? Martin Harris ultimately decided that he would mortgage his farm so the first 5, 000 copies of the Book of Mormon could be printed.
But even this sacrifice, and any sacrifice we might make, is small compared to the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. The greatest of all who bled from every pore to save the repentant. Thank you. So in the next segment, we are going to consider how the words of section 19 apply not just to Martin Harris, but to us individually.
We'll do that next.
Segment 2
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So one of the things that I love to do when I study a particular person from church history, listen, you're everyone listening, you're going to want to know about this resource. It's phenomenal. It's called the Joseph Smith papers. If you just Google Joseph Smith papers, it will pull up. Click on the Joseph Smith papers link.
And then at the very top, there is a tab you can click that says reference. So I click on the reference tab and then it pulls down a couple of different options. Click on the tab that then says people. You can look up almost any name from any person in church history and find out so much about that person.
I think it's powerful. So, of course, I looked up Martin Harris because I just wanted to know everything I could find out about him. So, here's a couple of facts about him that might play into Doctrine and Covenants section 19. As we know, he lost 116 pages. He was called out by the Lord to repent, to sell his farm.
He was excommunicated in 1837. Then he was rebaptized into the church in 1842. He was a member of a high council of James Strange Church, like a different church. He joined William E. McClellan's religious movement. He initiated a new movement with William [00:15:00] Smith and Chilton Daniels in Kirtland, Ohio. He was excommunicated again.
He migrated to the Salt Lake Valley. Then he was rebaptized into the church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints in 1870. And then he died in Clarkston Cache County, Utah in 1875. As, as, as sad as like that feels about Martin Harris, please, I assure you, it won't be a hate fest on Martin. He'll resume, he'll totally redeem himself at the end.
But one of the things I asked my guests to do is taking this into account. I wanted us to study section 19 with the knowledge of these facts because number first, first reason this section is the last, like we said, this section is the last one given to Martin Harris and number two, after putting up 240 acres of collateral to guarantee the payment of 3, 000 to the printer for 5, 000 copies of the book of Mormon.
It did receive some negative press the book of Mormon and Martin was so worried about the negative press that he actually went to Joseph Smith, very nervous and said, I'm worried the books aren't going to sell and I'm not going to get my money back and I'm going to lose everything. So he said to Joseph.
I want a commandment or I want a revelation and he actually insisted three or four different times to Joseph, give me a revelation. And that is how we have section 19. It's in answer to his request. So I asked my guests to look through section 19 and I was just curious to know, we have this all knowing God and he made Martin's request count.
So, section 19 is just packed, and I asked you to pick one or two verses that you felt might have been helpful counsel for Martin moving forward in his life. What'd you guys find? Well, so, I think the verse that stood out to me is verse 38, and, um, it says pray always, and I will pour out my spirit upon you, and great shall be your blessing, yea, even more than if you should obtain treasures Of earth and corruptible in this to the extent thereof.
And the reason I think that brought Martin, um, clarity maybe, or, or why it could be preventative counsel for us. Um, you just gave this like overview of Martin's life. The Lord knew all of that was going to happen and he knew what was going to, Martin was going to come back in the end, but it was, the Lord was looking at it as like an, a long term.
Game and he looks at all of us like that. It's not just like where Martin was in that moment or where I am in this moment, but he sees the, the big picture of our lives and he still told Martin, I will pour out my spirit upon you and great shall be your blessing. Um, and it wasn't just that Martin wasn't going to lose his farm or got to be part of the events of the restoration.
Like he, he saw Martin in his eternal potential, just like he sees all of us and our potential blessings are greater than we could ever obtain in this earth, even if we had all of the riches and. Um, it helps me when I think about like my relationship with other people or trusting my kids to make this the right decisions in their lives or am I, am I doing enough?
Like God sees us all in his infinite view. And He's going to do all that he can for us to help us achieve his glory. And we're going to talk about that further in how he gave us his son and how Christ is on our side. And he will do all he can to fight for us to get us to, to live with him again. In celestial glory, and I think it's super cool that this section about Martin and, and Martin's life is, uh, such like a real raw example, right?
Like, he wasn't a prophet, he wasn't perfect, and yet the Lord still tells him, great shall be your blessing. So, we can trust that we don't have to be perfect either, as long as we're trying, right? Yeah. I put next to that verse when you said God plays a long game, like he, he is seeing Martin to the [00:20:00] end. I, I've never considered that with that verse, verse 18.
He's seeing Martin all the way to the end. Oh, that's good. Wow. Thank you, Angie. You're welcome. What about you, BJ? Yeah. So the verse that stuck out to me that I think is preventative counsel, um, but counsel to any of us, remember Martin, he's struggling, he's worried about his soul, he's worried about his farm, he's worried about the book we're not doing well.
This is the Lord's answer to him as he searches for peace. Dr. Covins 19 verse 23, learn of me and listen to my words, walk in the meekness of my spirit and you shall have peace. What a beautiful equation for anyone who's looking to find peace. Learn of me, listen to my words, walk in the meekness of my spirit and you shall have peace.
So, the Lord's response to Martin as he looks for peace, so first early in the section he teaches him about the atonement, then he gives him this verse which we just read, and I think it's, it means something personally to me because we're told so, so many times by prophets to learn of Christ, to read the scriptures.
And I, I didn't really fully understand this till I became a bishop, and I find myself giving counsel to a variety of problems, often with the same response. If you want to feel God's love more in your life, if you want to feel more revelation, if you're struggling with addiction, read your scriptures more often.
And part of that is because of what the prophets had taught about how reading the scriptures, studying the life of Christ does for everything else in our life. So here's one of my favorite quotes from President Benson. As we know, he's, he's one of the prophets who really emphasized the Book of Mormon.
This is one of the very first talks as a prophet. He said this, we worked, or let me also preface this by saying he was talking to church leaders at this time. He said, we work diligently to raise the percentages of those attending sacrament meeting. We labor to get a higher percentage of our youth on missions.
We strive to improve the number of those marrying in the temple. All of these are commendable, efforts, and important. But, when individual members and families immerse themselves in the Scriptures, these other areas of activity will automatically come. Testimonies will increase, commitment will be strengthened, families will be fortified, personal revelation will flow.
Reading the Scriptures is a catalyst to developing a relationship with Christ. That's why right after teaching the atonement, about the atonement in this section, he tells Martin, learn of me, Martin, I want to have a relationship with you. I just told you about me, but I need you to read the scriptures and learn about me.
I think of Matthew 7, 21 through 23, when the Lord says, not everyone who saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will. Which is, or he's a do the will of my father, which isn't heaven. And then he goes on to say, like, many of those will be cast out. Even if they speak in my name and do miracles in my name and the people will say, well, why are, why have we been cast out?
And he says, I will profess unto them. I never knew you depart from me that work iniquity. The Joe Smith translation changes that line to ye never knew me. Instead of I never knew you. So like, there must be a difference between. Really knowing Christ and knowing about Christ, like we can, we can do the actions that make us a Christian.
We can maybe even do a miracle in his name, he says. But that doesn't know, that doesn't mean that you really know the savior and how do you build a relationship with anybody by spending time with them, by learning about them. So the gospel studies is not only important because it fortifies us against sin and helps us keep the commandments and helps us motivated.
It's because it builds a relationship with Christ. It cultivates that relationship. We feel connected to the savior as we read the scriptures. I mean, President Oaks went on, went, went as far as to say that the scriptures are our own personal Urim and Thummim, like they are a catalyst to revelation. So it's that, and I think part of that is not just that we're taught in our minds, the things that God wants us to know that day or, or that month as we're reading the scriptures, but we're taught in our hearts is that personal revelation is not just about being taught something in your mind, but also feeling the love of Christ.
When you read the scriptures and you feel the Savior close to you, like that's personal revelation, just a different kind than maybe sometimes we're talking that we talk about. So anyway, so that's what stuck out to me is him saying, Martin, I want you to learn of me. That's what's going to increase your faith.
I have a follow up question for you, BJ. It might be [00:25:00] personal, so you can choose to answer it or not, but we'll end the segment with this question because as you were talking, I had the thought I want to know when in BJ's life did verse 23 work? Was there a time where you gained a testimony that, yeah, when you did learn of him and listen to his words and walk in meekness, you had peace?
Yeah. So I think like a lot of listeners, you know, I've struggled with mental health throughout my life. And one of the time, one of the things that's really hard about when you struggle with mental health is it's hard to feel anything. It's hard to feel the spirit. It's hard to feel God's love. And sometimes you start to feel a little bitter, like why, where is God?
Where is he in my life? And then maybe you start to feel self doubt. Maybe I'm not good enough. And during those times, like, the last thing you want to do is read the scriptures. Because the scriptures just remind you of, of everything that you're not, or everything that's not going good in your life.
Right. And I just found that in those times, even when, like, maybe I don't feel motivated internally to do it, if I do it, I find peace. And the scriptures. Elder Scott said can, can even accelerate healing and I have found that in my life that the scriptures are a catalyst to feeling God's love. They are a catalyst to revelation, even, even at times when I maybe don't want to, but I want to want to, if I just do it, my life always goes better.
So it's been really interesting, um, like going through as a spouse. Um, watching BJ struggle sometimes with his mental health, and I know a hundred percent that both of us come to learn who Christ is, that we've come to know Christ in the heart. And, um, BJ's talked in other places about a specific time, um, as he was finishing up his PhD program, um, that he just was having A hard time getting through each day and, um, he had been a temple worker at that time for a while and we lived in San Antonio.
So we weren't too far away from a temple and, um, with him going so often, I was like, wait, I want to go to the temple more often. And so I started going every week also, and his schedule was such that, like, we could make that happen. Um, I know a hundred percent for sure that the temple is what got us through that hard time and we came to know Christ better by being in his house and it gave us, I'm convinced it's the only thing that gave us the strength to actually get through that really hard time.
And then we moved far away from a temple and we were like, what are we going to do? We were several hours from a temple anyway. Wow. Angie, I wrote down when you said we came to know Christ better by being in his house. What a great way to learn of him. What a great way to listen to his words, to walk in meekness and you will have peace.
Wow. Thank you. Thank you both of you. You didn't even, I didn't even prepare you for that. That was awesome. So thanks for sharing that. Oh, so beautiful. Okay. So then in the next segment, we're going to start, we're going to go the very beginning of section 19 and we are going to learn about the first two verses and how the Lord decides to start this revelation to Martin Harrison.
All the things he could have said. It's fascinating. He starts with these two verses and Angie's going to help teach this to us in the next segment.
Segment 3
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So let's turn to Doctrine and Covenants section 19 and Angie, I want you to talk to us about the first two verses because I asked these two who are scholars to read section 19 and just share with me something that really stood out or that they feel strongly about. And Angie was like, these two verses, this is it for her.
And so I said, will you please just teach us about and why these stood out to you? So hit it, sis. Well, before we read them, Martin Harris had come to the Lord with this big pressing matter, right? Right. Right. And what's the very [00:30:00] first thing he does, he tells him about who he is. He says, I am Alpha and Omega, Christ the Lord, yea, even I am he, the beginning and the end, the Redeemer of the world.
I have accomplished and finished the will of him whose I am, even the Father, concerning me, having done this. That I might subdue all things unto myself. So the Lord is coming to Martin and he's like, you need an answer. Well, first I need you to know me and I need you to understand who I am so that you can do the hard thing I'm asking you to do.
It makes me think of, in President Nelson's talk in October General Conference, he said, I urge you to devote time each week for the rest of your life to increase your understanding of the atonement of Jesus Christ. An urge, I mean, we know that means to persistently persuade someone in earnest, right?
Like, he's not just asking us, he's trying to convince us. To learn more about Jesus Christ on Sunday, it was a early society lesson. And, and our wonderful teacher, she asked a question, though, somewhere along the lines of like, how do, how do you persevere in faith when you have questions? And as I thought about it, I sat and listened to what the ladies in my ward were saying, and it hit me like, my faith isn't in the answers.
Of my questions, my faith is in Christ and that's how I persevere, I persevere in Him because He's Alpha and Omega, He created the world, did you see Elder Holland's Instagram video where he talked, it was so good, right? I'm so glad you brought that up. Everybody needs to go on Instagram, follow Elder Holland.
He actually talks about these very words, Alpha and Omega, and why he loves them so much. It's awesome. And like, when you think about that, that Christ is the beginning Alpha, the beginning and Omega, the end. He created this world for us so we could come down here and learn and have these experiences. But not be condemned by them, even though they are condemning us, because we're fallen here and we made mistakes, but in the end, the Omega part of Christ, he's there, he's going to reach us wherever we're at, and he's going to, to pull us along, as I, as I think about the situation that Martin was in, what Martin was being asked to do was so illogical, and like, Doesn't the Lord care about my marriage?
And doesn't the Lord want me to share the gospel? Like how are, how are people going to listen to me if they don't respect me? And like, if I was in that situation, it would be so hard and so confusing. Yes. But like, we have those hard and confusing situations happening now in different ways. Right. And. Um, how are we going to get through them?
It's only by knowing Christ. So we're going to get through it. I have a question for you, Angie, because I want to know you, you're so beautifully bearing testimony of how knowing Christ can get you through hard things. And I think that's the whole point. Like he's, he's saying you're about to go through something difficult and, and BJ, I'm so grateful you brought up, he never gave him an answer.
He never assured him that everything would work out. So I just want to know, Angie, how does knowing who God is? How do these words kind of give us the assurance that it all works out?
Um, I think in the end we don't, like, have an assurance that, like, the details of life are going to work out. Mm hmm. Or at least, or at least the way that we want it to. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mm hmm. Like, um, it makes me think of Elder Bednar's question, do you have the faith to not be healed? Yeah. Like, would we? I guess the assurance comes in our eternal perspective, like President Nelson's asking us to think celestial [00:35:00] or to just look beyond like the details and have faith in the long term.
But that faith in the long term is actually what pulls you through the short term. Right? It's like the being centered and focused on Christ is what's going to give you the peace to get through the day. I don't know about anyone else, but sometimes I look at the news or at the situations going on in the world and you can feel like that anxiety starts to bubble up in you and like, yes, you're like, this doesn't make sense.
Like this is, this is going poorly. In those moments, like, I just try to remind myself, like, stop and refocus yourself, like, go be in the scriptures, or go read a conference talk, and, and the peace will come, and the eternal perspective comes that X, Y, Z, whatever the source of anxiety is, is not as big as God is.
Yeah. Angie, will you read verse three for us? Yeah. Because I think this is such a cool verse where he's teaching us. I'm alpha. So I was with you in the beginning. I'm Omega and I will be with you at the end. None of us can even imagine what the end is like. We know what the beginning was like because we've got pictures of our childhood or we've been told what it was like in our pre earth life, right?
But the end is so crazy to us to even consider like, what in the world would that be? And I love, love, love. Verse three. Yeah, retaining all power, even to the destroying of Satan and his works at the end of the world. And the last great day of judgment, which I shall pass upon the inhabitants thereof, judging every man according to his works and the deeds which he hath done.
Aye, that, to me, is so powerful, what he's saying. Retaining all power, even to the destroying of Satan. To the end of the world, like I can't think of a better Omega, right? That, that's Omega for me and he will prevail and we will prevail. Those of us who follow the Savior, who have learned of him and listened to his words and spent time in his house.
Oh, yes. I love that. And that was, that was when I hadn't even connected to this section, like, let God prevail. It just. Yes, let God prevail. So in the book BJ wrote, he, he kind of talks about how, like, we can have this knowledge that things are going to work out in the end, but it's not just in the end that we have to wait for things to work out.
And he talks a lot about how part of what Christ Is compensating us with, like, we know there will be long term compensation, um, long term eternal blessings that are going to be grander than we can even imagine. Yeah. But, um, I think one thing we've both really learned is that we don't have to wait for the end to come to receive those blessings.
And that we're often being given blessings. In ways that don't, um, always appear totally obvious that it's, it's a blessing for her. And I, I love that you brought that up, Angie, because part of that is understanding that the Lord compensates us not just in the next life, but also in this life. Because I, I think if you, if you, if all the, you know, all the listeners, if you look back at some of the really difficult times in your life.
Maybe you, maybe it wasn't taken away from you, the difficulties, or maybe you didn't receive blessings in the way that you expected. But I bet if you look back, you'll be able to see compensating blessings in other aspects of your life. Yes. It's often in hindsight, but we could say, Oh yeah, this other part of my life, like in my job or my home life or wherever.
Yeah, that was really blessed. Like, I received a lot of blessings that I didn't deserve. And that's a result of the compensating power. Of Christ and the result of his atonement, as it says, it says in Moroni, all good things come of Christ, every blessing that we have that, that comes into our life, you know, we really deserve very little of what, what comes to us and it's a result of having the Savior there in our daily, in our daily journey.
Which makes him the alpha and omega of whatever you're going through right now, like he can be the end. So, Oh, thank you so much. Thank you, Angie. That was a great discussion. I, I have so appreciate you picked out those two verses cause I thought that is neat of all the things that he could have started with.
He wants us to know who he is. So very powerful. Well, now that we know who he is and what he can do in the next segment, he's going to teach us about his punishment. [00:40:00] I'm going to let BJ explain that to us in the next segment.
Segment 4
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Now, in section 19, we have some very daunting words when it comes to how the Lord will punish us. Maybe, maybe not. BJ is going to explain these big terms and how, why the Lord uses them. So hit it, give us the verses of scripture and tell us what he's teaching us. Yeah. So first let me just say to the listeners, you know, give, give Tammy a break if you're wondering why is she making BJ talk about such terrible language here is, is, yeah.
I, I suggested we talk about this because it's a prevalent part of section 19. I don't think we can ignore it. And it's such a unique doctrine that's taught here that differs from most of the prevailing Christian wisdom at the time. Yes. Oh, I'm so glad you set it up like that. So it sheds light on a question that a lot of Christians have because of the prevailing, the prevailing wisdom at the time was that the terms endless torment and eternal torment mean that, Hey, if you don't go to heaven, you're going to go to hell and you are going to be tormented for eternity.
And so when we look at, so we're about to read these verses where the Lord describes what he means when he says endless torment and eternal torment, and he's going to say, look, it's doesn't mean what you think it means. I think it's so interesting as well that he, he gives this to Martin Harris because some scholars point to the idea that Martin Harris believed in a religion called universalism before meeting Joseph Smith.
And one of the core tenants of universalism is the fundamental rejection of eternal torment. They believe that everyone will be saved. So maybe, maybe as Martin Harris is reading through the Book of Mormon and he sees these terms he's like, Oh wow, like this doesn't really jive with what I believe. So I think maybe that gives some insight into why the Lord chose this, this section to Martin Harris to describe this.
So let's start. So verse, uh, so D& C 19 verse five. So in verse five, he teaches about judgment. Then essentially in six through 11, Lord is going to say, You think when the scriptures teach about judgment and use the term endless torment that it means there's no end, but that's not the case. So let me teach you correctly what it means.
So let's start in verse 6. Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment. But it is written, endless torment. Again, it is written, eternal damnation. Wherefore, it is more expressed than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men altogether for my name's glory.
So he says, because it, because it's called endless torment doesn't mean that it's, that there's no end to it. And you can see why people would be confused by that one. So then, uh, he says, Verse 8, Therefore I will explain this mystery, for it is meet unto you to know, even as might apostles. I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that ye may enter into my rest.
For behold, the mysteries of God, and how great it is. So then in verse 10, we get really the, the continued description or explanation. For behold, I am endless. And the punishment which is given in my name is endless punishment for endless is my name. So endless here is a capital E. So endless is a pronoun.
So the Lord saying. When it says endless torment, it's the same as saying it's God's torment. Wherefore, eternal punishment, again, eternal with a capital E, is God's punishment. Endless punishment is God's punishment. So, what we learn here in these scriptures is that the terms eternal damnation mean, what we, what we typically think it means is wrong.
It's not called eternal punishment because there's no end. It's because it's God's punishment and God is eternal. Again, E, capital E for eternal, it's a pronoun that the Lord's using here. That's so cool. Cause it goes back to alpha and omega. Did you ever think of that? Oh yeah. So alpha and omega, it's always used.
Yeah. Capital. Yeah. I didn't think of that. That's awesome. So when this, the question then becomes, what is this punishment and what are these verses talking about? Like, what does he mean when he says this? And I think it's just so cool because this is such a unique doctrine. What we know from the teachings of the prophets in the scriptures is that this is the suffering that happens in the spirit world.
What we typically call spirit prison. For those who do not repent, once their suffering appeases the demands of justice, they'll be released from the suffering. So let's, let's break this down just a little bit more. So the law of justice demands recompense for sin. So the choice becomes between repenting or suffering.
So Elder D. Todd [00:45:00] Christofferson said this, If a man rejects the Savior's atonement, he must redeem his debt to justice himself. An unredeemed individual's suffering for sin is known as hell. So what we typically call hell, or eternal punishment, is the suffering that occurs in the spirit worlds. So when the scriptures refer to hell, so when you read about hell in the scriptures, and there's different definitions.
But the most common one is referring to what we taught, what we're taught here in Doctrine and Covenants section 19 about the suffering for your sin. What the Lord is also teaching us here, what I think is, is so interesting is that there's a beginning and an end to the suffering. So this is, uh, James C.
Talmadge, he said, to hell there is an exit as well as an entrance. Hell is no place to which a vindictive judge sends prisoners to suffer and be punished principally for his glory. But it is a place prepared for the teaching, disciplining, of those who fail to learn, here on earth, what they should have learned.
No man will be kept in hell longer than is necessary. Can we see the difference between this viewpoint of eternal damnation and what the prevailing Christian wisdom at the time? Because sometimes, sometimes other religions will, will say that our view of judgment is very strict. Right? We only, we believe in three kingdoms.
We only believe the top kingdom gets to live with God. Sometimes critics will say like you, your religion requires so many things to go to heaven. And I always say that we have the most liberal view of judgment. Yeah. Because we believe, except for a very, very select few, everyone will get some type of degree of glory.
And so, although maybe these words that we read in 19 feel like a harsh undertone, like it's such a cool, merciful doctrine that the Lord is teaching. Yes. That is awesome, BJ. Okay, let's do this. Let's add a cross reference then to verses 11 and 12. We're going to cross reference these verses with Moses chapter one, verse three.
So write that to the outside. And then Moses chapter seven, verse 35. This is pretty cool. So we're going to take everything BJ taught us, and we're just going to add one more thing to it because I think this makes it how it, this is how it works in my brain. And I love this. Okay. Angie, will you please read Moses chapter one, verse three.
Yeah. And God speaking to Moses. Saying, Behold, I am the Lord God Almighty, and Endless is my name, for I am without beginning of days or end of years, and is not this Endless. So Endless is his name, it's one of his titles. And then go to Moses chapter 7 verse 35. Bj, will you read that? Behold, I am God, man of Holiness is my name.
Man of counsel is my name. And endless and eternal is my name also. So I think it's powerful when we go into eternal punishment is God's punishment. Endless punishment is God's punishment. In verses 11 and 12, he's saying, it's my punishment, it's mine. And when I think. What we have learned throughout the past four years of studying God is one of his attributes is love.
And so if you know that punishment is coming from a loving God who loves you, and one of the things I say at the end of every episode is you're God's favorite, because I truly believe that we are God's favorite. I can't imagine a father When we think of punishment in the world we live in, it could be ugly.
It could be the most horrible things you could possibly imagine. That word punishment is so, it's damning and it's, it's coarse and it's hurtful. But I think right here when God's saying it's my punishment, like I'm in charge of how this is all going to turn out. So Let's just make sure we, which is like you said, BJ, so different than a universalist way or the way that the Christians thought of it back then, because that was hell fire damnation punishment.
You're going to burn and it's going to be tormenting and awful. And you're right. God is reframing Martin's brain by saying, Oh no, it's my punishment and I'm in charge and I'm going to, it's, it just reframed the way I view this. So I love what you taught us. And then we connect it to how it is. He's just saying, these are my names.
And it's my punishment and I'm in charge. So don't listen to any, whatever you thought or believe before. Nah, it doesn't. It's not right. That was so cool. I'd never considered that BJ that he came in with this viewpoint of what punishment might've looked like. Oh my gosh. Okay. So he sets this up then BJ, he's going to give us his punishment and that is an awesome, powerful lesson of what we need to know about this, but there's more we have to understand about his punishment and his suffering.
Which you read [00:50:00] to us in the very first segment, but we're going to really dive into these verses because it might seem kind of scary for those of us who don't repent. And so in the next segment, we are going to have BJ explain these verses to us. And I'm looking forward to this.
Segment 5
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So, BJ, one of the things that you wrote to me, and I thought this was so perfect, is you said, why does the Lord say that we will suffer even as Him if we don't repent? If we can suffer for our own sins, then why was the atonement necessary? That seems to be the idea in Doctrine and Covenants section 19 verses 15 through 20.
Let's bracket those off. And BJ, I want you to answer that question because I thought it was so cool you brought it up. Yeah. So, so I love these verses because the Lord's going to teach us in his own words about the atonement, but then he's going to teach us about why we need to repent. And so, um, remember we talked about earlier, this is a really unique first person account of Christ describing his own words.
Yes. The atonement was like, so we're going to start in verse 15. Therefore, I command you to repent, repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath and my anger, and your sufferings besore. How sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not. For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent.
So, maybe, at first, when we read those verses, we think, God sounds really mad. He's telling us, you're going to have to suffer and I'm going to, and I'm going to humble you. But this is not a section of an angry God. This is a loving God saying, look, I don't want you to suffer. I have suffered these things that you might not suffer if you would repent.
I have suffered these things that you may not suffer. I don't want you to suffer, but I'm telling you that you're going to have to suffer if you don't do these things. So God's not, He's not like a parent who, who's saying you better do what I say or else. He's a parent saying, please don't touch that stove.
It is going to hurt and I don't want you to feel the pain. So this is, this is what Elder Maxwell said about kind of God's indignation. He said, it is customary, even understandable when we read of God's indignation and anger to think of it in terms of an angry moral father and not ponder it much more mistakenly thinking of God as being personally piqued or offended at some act of wickedness or stupidity He has told us to behave otherwise.
This is erroneous bumper sticker theology, simply because we are so often angry at a wrong done to us. We wrongly assumed the same about God's anger. Like this is not a dad who's mad. This is a dad who loves us. This is a section of love. And he tells us, look, the law of justice demands suffering. I already paid.
I already paid the suffering. And. Uh, years ago, President Irene gave a, a BYU devotional, I think it was when he was actually the president of BYU Idaho. And he, he read this, the, these verses in section 19 and then he said this, I could not repent to qualify for this atonement of my sins. I, I must suffer to the limit of my power to suffer.
Somehow I had gotten the idea that the choice was between repenting or not. And then I realized that whatever pain repentance might bring in this life. It was certainly no more than the pain I could face if I did not repent here. And yet, the latter pain could not lift me home. It could not bring the mercy I needed.
So then, in verse 17, the Lord tells us again firsthand what the atonement was like. Right. And he says, and they, he commands us to repent again. And you know, you asked earlier in the question, if the scriptures say that we suffer, like why did we need an atonement? Like if we had to, if we could pay the demands of justice ourselves in the spirit world.
And I think it gives us a real insight into why Christ performed the atonement and why repentance is necessary because Elder Eyring goes on to say in that talk, with all the exquisite suffering of my own, with all I could bear, it was still not enough. I would still be forever shut out of the only place where there would be warmth of family, the family of my only father, whom I loved and whom I miss, that of my family here.
So then the question becomes, why is that? Like why, if we suffer to appease the demands of justice, it won't be enough. And I think it comes down to what repentance is [00:55:00] for. Repentance is not to pay for our sin. It's to facilitate a change in us. So even if we suffer for our sins, we've not repented in the sense that we became God like.
We haven't fulfilled the purpose in life. The purpose of life isn't, and the purpose of the atonement wasn't just to appease the demands of justice. It was to change us. And this insight came to me as I was reading this wonderful book by Bruce C. Hafen called The Broken Heart. And he asked basically the same question.
And this is what he says, I once wondered if those who refuse to repent, but then satisfy the law of justice by paying for their own sins are then worthy to enter the celestial kingdom, right? Like that's a logical question. Then he says, the answer is no. The entrance requirements for the celestial kingdom are simply higher than merely satisfying the law of justice.
For that reason, paying for our sins. Will not bear the same fruit as repenting of our sins because so, so the, I think the point he's making is that repentance is not just about paying the demands of justice. It's about changing, right? It's about becoming Christlike. And in, in my book, the compensating power of Christ, I talk about how there's kind of general two purposes of the atonement.
One is the rescuing purpose, which is like rescuing from death and hell, which we typically think about. In terms of the atonement, but the other purpose is to helping us become a Christ like person and Christ didn't simply perform the atonement that cleanses from sin. He did to help us to become something great.
So the analogy that I use is that of a land developer, right? So you buy a piece of land, you do first what's called clearing the land, right? You cleared debris and unwanted vegetation. So you clean it, but you didn't buy the land just to clean it. Right? You bought it to develop into something beautiful.
And so if we choose to not repent in this life, we're going to have to suffer for our sins. But that's not going to create anything beautiful. It's not going to, it's not going to help us become who Christ wants us to be. And it's just, it's meant so much to me to think about the atonement in this way, because I've realized that Christ didn't just come to fulfill the law of justice.
He came to help us to become something great. And that requires a lot of things. So, talking further about some of the, the, the things I discussed in my book. So I mentioned kind of six ways the atonement is applied in our lives. There's kind of the typical ways of forgiveness of sin and resurrection, but there's also Christ purifies us.
He comforts us. He heals us. He strengthens us. And then the last one I introduce is that he compensates us, which is what my book is mostly about. And it's just, it just meant so much to me because I've realized that Christ is such a bigger part of our daily life than we think. Yeah. He's not just here at the end to forgive us of our sins, like he is here to, to transform us.
You know, BJ, I really liked when you said he requires us to be something great. I wrote that down because it immediately took me back into section 19, specifically verse 32. So in verse 32, he says, behold, this is a great and last commandment, which I shall give unto you, meaning Martin and the great and last commandment, meaning the revelations the last time I'm going to speak to you, which I shall give unto you concerning this matter for this shall suffice for the daily walk, even unto the end of my life.
And I highlighted by daily walk, even at the end of my life. And it just kind of made me think as you were talking, he requires us to be something great. And what, what does that look like in my daily walk? What am I doing to become great through the atonement of Jesus Christ? How can I access and draw upon those powers to become great?
And it just kind of made me think about this daily walk. And I mean, I'd love to know if you have an experience with in your life about what it looks like to have a daily walk with the savior. So I recently started a service mission, and so I get to be a service missionary while I'm at school. That's cool.
It's so fun. So this is my plug for service missions. But, um, I teach an institute class through BYU Pathway. And the class that I teach. It's located in the Central Africa area, and, um, I get to teach the Jesus Christ and His Everlasting Gospel class, and it has been so cool because some of the students I recognize, or I can tell that they're members of our church, but some of them, you can, it's very evident that they're not.
And as we've talked about Jesus [01:00:00] Christ and his atonement over the last few weeks, there's a few things that have like become really salient to me, um, that helped me understand maybe why we get this invitation from our prophet, why he's asking us to focus on Christ. Um, and The joy that like the students in my institute class have expressed to me as we've talked about how Jesus Christ was our premortal Savior and how he created the world and That he is pleading with us to make covenants with him.
Um Jesus Christ is joy like talking of Christ brings joy into our lives even In hard situation, um, and as the difficulties in life come, we need Jesus Christ. desperately in order to get through whatever the storms are. Angie, that is such a great example because the people are experiencing joy because of the Savior.
That is great. I can't think of a greater thing to be than just be beautiful, wonderful examples of joy because of Him. Um, because He is joy. So that is so cool. That story. How neat. Congratulations on a service mission. Thanks. It's so fun. And you're teaching in Africa. That is so cool. I told my My niece who's 14 that one day I said to her, did you know I'm going to be a service missionary?
I get to teach institute in Africa and she looked at me so serious and she's like When do you leave? Oh no, I'm teaching it at my house. Oh. Wait, how is this going to work? Who's going to take care of the kids? Like, I just get to put my name tag on while I teach and be amazing. And just looking at you, I wish you could see the video of her face right now.
It lights up. Like Angie is so much joy when she talks about teaching those adults in pathways. So very cool. Wow. Thank you. Thank you to both of you for enlightening us on those verses and filling the spirit about that idea of Christ atonement and the daily walk in our lives. So here's, let's do this then in the next segment, we're going to finish out our story of Martin Harris, and we're going to find out some more aspects of his daily walk.
I told you it wouldn't be a hate fest on Martin because there's actually some good things that I want to tell you about him. And we'll do that in the next segment.
Segment 6
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Let's go into doctrine and covenant section 19. We're going to read verses 37 through 41. Knowing what we know now about Martin, we're going to read these verses, and then I'm going to show you something pretty cool. We'll each take a turn. We'll start with BJ, then we'll go Angie, and then me. And speak freely to all, yea, preach, exhort, declare the truth, even with a loud voice, with the sound of rejoicing, crying, Hosanna, Hosanna, blessed be the name of the Lord God.
Pray always, and I will pour out my Spirit upon you, and great shall be your blessing, yea, even more than if you should obtain treasures of earth and corruptibleness to the extent thereof. Behold, canst thou read this without rejoicing and lifting up thy heart for gladness? Or canst thou run any longer as a blind guide?
Or canst thou be humble and meek, and conduct thyself wisely before me? Yea, come unto me thy Saviour. Amen. Amen. So I have read verses 37 through 41 as sort of like the Lord coming down hard on Martin. Like, listen, he knows Martin's going to leave the church. He knows Martin has left the church. He knows, I mean, he knows all these things.
And so he's saying to him, listen, pray always. And how much longer are you going to be a blind guide and just be humble and meek? But then it kind of flipped for me. Because I learned this about Martin Harris. Listen to all these cool things. In fact, here's a quote from Elder Oaks. He gave a conference talk called The Witness, Martin Harris.
And here's what he encouraged us to do. BJ, can you read this quote for us? Having a special interest in Martin Harris, I have been saddened at how he's remembered by most church members. He deserves better than unrighteously obtained, then lost the initial manuscript pages. Of the Book of Mormon. So listen to all of this about him.
He was one of the three witnesses of the Book of Mormon. He was baptized into the church by Oliver Cowdry. He was ordained a priest. He paid for the printing costs of the publication of the Book of Mormon. He was then ordained a high priest. He was appointed to serve a mission in Missouri. He participated in the camp of Israel.
He was a member of the Curtain High Council. Then after his mission in February of 1834, Martin was chosen by revelation to serve as the first high council in the church, less than three months [01:05:00] later, he left Kirtland with the men of Zion's camp and marched 900 miles to Missouri to relieve the oppressed saints there.
One of the most important events of the restoration was the calling of a quorum of the 12 apostles in February of 1835. The three witnesses, including Martin Harris were appointed to search out the 12 and select them. under authority granted by the prophet. Then during part of his remaining years in Kirtland, Martin Harris acted as a self appointed guide and caretaker of the deserted Kirtland temple, which he loved.
Martin did some pretty amazing and awesome and incredible things. We love Martin Harris. This is kind of a fun connection, and here's why Elder Oaks feels so strongly about Martin Harris. Martin's older brother is Emer, and Emer Harris and Martin Harris served many missions together. Emer Harris is the great great grandfather Of Elder Oaks.
It's who his initial is, Dallin Harris Oaks. When Martin and Emer served missions together, they baptized over 100 people and among those that were baptized was a family with the last name of Oaks. Which included Elder Oaks's great, great grandfather. So he says, my middle name and my last name come from the grandfathers who met in that missionary encounter in Susquehanna County, 1832 to 1833.
Is that so cool? That is so cool. Okay, so Tammy, we, BJ's family, Mar and Harris is like. His fourth great uncle. Yes. Right? What? Isn't that cool? Oh my gosh. Okay, BJ. You're going to love this then. You are going to love verses 37 through 41 in this new light. Okay, look at this. This is so cool. So now that we know all of this awesome stuff about Martin Harris.
Maybe these verses weren't meant to disparage him, but maybe they were meant to say, you're doing great work. Look at this now. Now, if we look at Martin Harris as a pretty awesome, incredible human being, he says in verse 37, the Lord says to Martin, speak freely to all and preach, exhort, declare the truth.
Even with a loud voice, with a sound of rejoicing, crying, Hosanna, Hosanna, blessed be the name of God. And Martin, pray always, and I will pour out my spirit upon you. And great shall be your blessing even more than you could even obtain with treasures on the earth. And then verse 39, behold, can't now can't is actually the word can can't is a second person singular present tense of the word can.
So I just crossed out the S T because now it says behold can. And then instead of that, I put you, can you read this without rejoicing and lifting up your heart for gladness? Yeah. I love that. Like, Oh Martin, you're doing it. And then can they'll run longer as a blind guide. Now. Every time I read that, I think he's being called a guide that is blind.
But then I looked up what a blind guide was. This is so fun. A blind guide is actually somebody who helps guide the blind is a seeing person that helps them. One of my favorite examples of this is in this video clip. We're going to put this in our show notes. It's a video of David Brown and Jerome Avery, and it is the Olympic athletes blind guide who's speaking.
He got the gold. He has blind when he ran in the Paralympics. And we're going to discuss this idea of a blind guide and Martin Harris and all of us as members of the church. I ran with him our first practice. Coach needed to say, you're going to run with him after me. And you know, the rest has been history.
There you go. Run, run, run, run, run. Stay in tight. Running with Jerome, I don't have to worry about going out too fast. All I have to focus on is just listening to him. Get up! Nice! On action should be exact. We should be hitting the ground at the same time. This time they're away. The crowd gets away very, very well engaged.
When you see us run, we're like one person. It should look like one person running. Woo! Now to spin. That tracking sight on camera is magic to watch because it just shows that they were running almost like one person.
That is one of my favorite videos because I want you to go back to this verse, verse 40. What if Martin Harris is being called a blind guide to literally guide people who are spiritually blind as opposed to the Lord pointing his finger at him saying, you uncover your eyes and start seeing because Martin was a good man.
He was so good. And when we apply these verses to us, and especially now go back to that video, how are we as members of the church blind guides? Well, as I watched that video. Um, I saw myself being the blind person and Christ being the blind guide, right? And like, always want to be bound to him in that little bracelet that they had on together, right?
[01:10:00] And I mean, Christ invites us to do his work and he, he wants us to be his hands. So it's only natural that then we would become a blind guide also, right? I almost imagine it is like, I'm tethered to Christ. He's leading me. But then on my other hand, I'm maybe bound to someone else too who can't see, right?
And it's like Christ leading all of us. You just perfectly explained the gathering and how we gather. That's what it's about. I mean, I was just thinking about the emphasis that the church leaders have put recently on the youth of the church and, you know, if I wouldn't call them blind, they're just immature in the gospel.
And maybe that's what he means by, by blind here is that they just, they haven't had the opportunity to know as much they're, they're relying more on us and just our responsibility to, to lead them to the gospel. And that just, you know, uh, years ago when they said, you know, we're going to raise the bar for, for missionaries going out to the field.
They also said that means that we're raising the bar for parents and for church leaders is. You have to be able to be a guide. You have to, to be able to follow Christ. And when Christ says, I am the way, the truth and the life, he means follow me. As you follow me, then you can grab other people and they can follow you.
And then there'll be following me. Yeah. And then verse 41, how do we do that? Can you be humble and meek and conduct yourself wisely before me? Yay. Come unto me. Um, come unto your savior. Amen. I think this is such a great way to end our entire discussion about our savior Jesus Christ. And I like how you said that Angie being tethered to him is the only way any of us are going to win this race.
What a great discussion. You two. Thanks for coming. So well prepared. And for helping me with this discussion, I knew you both would be because I read your book BJ and I do know that Angie helped you because you told me that the first time I met you when I met her, I'm like, Oh yeah, of course she did.
That's so cool. Oh, what a good discussion today. Okay, so do this. Gather your thoughts, look at your notes. And I asked for what's an eternal truth. What's something you learned or relearned in this discussion that you'll take away? So I just want to reiterate what we talked about earlier. That's really what has stuck out to me is in, in this time when Martin's in anguish and he wants peace, he's taught about the atonement of Jesus Christ.
Martin's is asked at this point to do what he thinks is the hardest thing he's done in his life. Which he's, he's worked so hard to build up, it's going to, I'm going to risk my farm. I'm going to risk my marriage, my family. And the Lord says, Martin, I did something really hard so I can help you. And likening that to us, when we're asked to do things that seem very difficult, or when we feel like we're not measuring up or we're not enough, or we don't have enough courage to do what God wants us to do.
That's the very core of what the atonement is for. When in second Corinthians, when he says, my grace is sufficient, my strength is made perfect and weakness, he means it you're weak, but I'm strong and I can compensate for where you lack. I can make you enough because my grace is sufficient for the, I just love that Martin has taught about the atonement of Jesus Christ in such intimate detail by the savior here as an answer to his prayer, because I think he would do the same thing to all of us.
When we pray, I'm going through something hard where I'm not enough. I don't know if I can do this. I don't know if I can measure up. He says, look, you can because I'm here to help you. Yeah. Excellent takeaway. Excellent. Eternal truth. What about you, Angie? Um, I think the thing that has stood out to me just as we've talked is.
How loving and merciful God is and how he calls himself the Redeemer of the world at the beginning. He is the Redeemer of the world, but he's the Redeemer of Martin and Angie, BJ and Tammy and how personal, um, that is to us and how he just wants to guide us. He wants to be that blind guide for us. I loved that image of being connected to the Savior in that way.
And why does he do it? I mean, it's so humbling to think about that. Why does he do it? Because he loves us. Like, his whole motive is just [01:15:00] pure love and knowing Christ means knowing his love and knowing what that feels like and what that can do in your life. For sure. Oh, thank you. Thank you to both of you.
I'll tell you what mine is. Angie, I loved it when you taught and reaffirmed me. We come to know Christ better by being in his house. That was so good. That is a truth. Absolutely. And BJ, I'm just going to amen what you said earlier because I love how you pointed out he never once told Martin, I got this, I'm going to help you.
But he taught him core truths that all of us need when we're going through hard times. I feel like section 19 should really be sort of like the hard life chapter. Like when things are tough, just go to section 19 and read it. Cause you're right. He never once ever says I got this, but you know, he does by his language and the things he teaches in section 19.
So I think this might be my new favorite go to the one I'll tell people to go read when they're struggling or my children just read section 19, um, knowing Martin Harris's background and everything. So thank you. Thank you to both of you. Yay. Oh, it was so much for asking us to do it. What a fun thing to do to talk about Jesus.
Oh gosh. Okay. Well tell me what truth did you learn? Go join our Facebook and follow us on Instagram to share what you've learned and you can even ask questions, which I love to answer. And then at the end of the week on a Saturday, we're going to post a question from this discussion. So comment on the post that relates to this lesson and share your thoughts.
You can get to both our Facebook and Instagram by going to the show notes for this episode at LDS living. com slash Sunday on Monday. And it's not a bad idea to go there anyway, because it's where we're going to have links to all the references as well as a transcript of this whole discussion. So go check it out.
The Sunday on Monday study group is a desert bookshelf plus original brought to you by LDS Living. It's written and hosted by me, Tammy Uzelac Hall. And today our fabulous study group participants were. BJ and Angie Allen. And you can find more information about my friends at ldsliving.com/sundayonmonday.
Our podcast is produced by Cole Wissinger and me. It is edited and mixed by Cole Wissinger and our executive producer is Erin Hallstrom. Thanks for being here. We'll see you next week. And please remember that to an eternal and endless God, you are his favorite.