The following transcript is intended to aid in your study. However, while we try to go through the transcript, our transcripts are primarily computer-generated and often contain errors. Please forgive the transcripts’ imperfections.
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[00:00:00] Tammy Uzelac Hall: What would you say is one of the grandest doctrinal books ever compiled? We'll get a load of this. You guys. I was surprised to find out that today we will begin our study of that book, and I am so excited to share with you what the Holy Ghost taught me as we studied together from second Nephi. Amen.
Amen. Just chapters one and two. Welcome to the Sunday on Monday study group, a Deseret Bookshelf Plus original brought to you by LDS Living, where we take the come follow me lesson for the week and we really dig into the scriptures together. I'm your host, Tammy Uzelac Hall. Now, if you're new to our study group, please follow the link in our description.
And it will best explain how you can use this podcast to enhance your Come Follow Me study. Just like my friends. Oh, my dear friends, Julie Carpenter, Jackie and Rachel Adams, and Cody Lynn Beck from education week. Hey friends. Thank you so much for coming up and saying hello to me. Okay. Now here's my favorite thing about the study group is each week we're joined by two of my friends.
So it's always a little bit different. And today I am thrilled to introduce you to, so this is sort of a regular, she comes on once a year. Because she lives so far away, but it's our friend Katrina Maxton. Hello, Katrina.
[00:01:09] Katrina Maxton: Hello, Tammy. Pleased to hear from you.
[00:01:13] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Oh, Katrina. So Katrina is in Scotland and Katrina and I have spent the last couple of months thinking and praying about who our guests could be.
And Katrina came up with just the best idea and it's her friend, Faye Leydecker . Hello, Faye. These two women are all the way from Scotland. Hello. Hello,
[00:01:31] Faye Leydecker: Tamara. Hi. It's very nice to meet you. I'm very honored to be your guest. Privileged to be here.
[00:01:39] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Now, how do you two know each other?
[00:01:42] Katrina Maxton: Well, we haven't known each other very long, so we've become friends.
In a very sort of spiritual way, because I first met Faye's mother. So I popped into a Relief Society class and sat down beside Faye's mother. And the lesson that day It was all about children, the children of, uh, parents who'd left the church. And of course, Faye's mother had quite a few things to share within that class.
I have also had a daughter leave the church and I had a few things to share myself. We found that we had a unique bond in that moment. And then about three months, maybe four months later, I went into Faye's ward. And sat down beside her and then we got talking and through that conversation, I realized that she was the person that her mother was speaking about who'd come back to church.
So my word. It was quite an unusual, um, way to meet Faye, but we had a lovely conversation that day in Faye's ward and I think we had a real lovely connection and that's why when you asked me who my friends, what friends could come on, I'd instantly thought of Faye because of our story.
[00:03:13] Tammy Uzelac Hall: That is a beautiful story.
Oh my goodness. Well, and then it's going to be really cool to hear Faye's story. We're going to hear it today. I've talked to Faye at length about her story and her experiences. And so I think the two of you are just the perfect guests. In fact, we didn't even know how perfect we'd be. We're going to get into that.
In segment two, but even Katrina, how perfect the timing is for you to be a guest on this podcast today. So if you want to know more about my guests and see their pictures and read their bios, you can find those in our show notes, which are going to be found at LDS living. com slash Sunday on Monday. So everyone grabbed your scriptures and whether you are studying alone or with family or friends, let's dig in together to second Nephi.
just chapters one and two. Okay, you two, here's my first question. We start every episode with what has the Holy Ghost taught you as you studied from second Nephi chapters one through two? And we'll go with you, Katrina. What did, what did it teach you this week?
[00:04:11] Katrina Maxton: Well, the thing that really stood out to me was in second Nephi chapter one, because quite uniquely I joined the church in America, so I was 27 when I joined the church.
So, as the Lehi talks about, um, the children of Israel being brought to the land, of America, the promised land, to receive the gospel. I felt like one of these people. I felt like that I was brought from Scotland to America to receive the gospel. I don't know how likely it would have been that I would have accepted the gospel in my own time, to be honest with you.
So the Lord led me to the land where, um, the gospel was. available, and I was able to talk to people about the gospel at that time. So there are scriptures that I love, which talks about this. It says in 2 Nephi 1, verse 6, I, Lehi, prophesy according to the workings of the Spirit which is in me, that there shall none come into this land.
None shall come into this land, save they shall be brought by the hand of the Lord. And I've put in, in that little place where it says none, me, because I definitely feel that I was brought to the land of America to receive the gospel, to receive the truth. I went, I then went on a mission. I served in America.
I was sent, um, To New Jersey, I served my mission, came home to the States, because it was my home at the time, and then in a blessing that I received, I was asked to return. Wow. Like, from the brother that gave me the blessing, he said that it was time for me to return to Scotland, which I did about maybe six weeks later.
[00:06:33] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Huh. So. I didn't know that story about you. You know, you don't know a lot about me, Tommy. Well, and here's what's so cool because when I was reading these verses, I have often wondered how people who don't live in the United States or who aren't from here or come here would interpret these verses. So thank you for beautifully testifying of the truthfulness of those words.
Next to verse six, I put your name. There you are, Katrina Maxton and I circled none. Thank you for testifying that that was really cool. Wow. Thank you. What about you, Faye?
[00:07:09] Faye Leydecker: Um, I honestly, I loved every single bit of it. I haven't read the Book of Mormon in many years and I'm really having a blast. I'm really enjoying it.
Um, my, the verse that stuck out for me was, uh, 2 Nephi chapter 2, verse 4, where Lehi speaks to his son Jacob and says, thou art blessed, even as they unto whom he shall minister in the flesh, talking about Jesus, for the spirit is the same yesterday, today and forever. And I remember reading the New Testament, um, last year and feeling so sorry I wasn't there at the time, you know, I really wanted, I'd wanted with all my heart to be living at the time of Jesus Christ, even as all the Nephites saw him, and also the people in Jerusalem saw him.
And for me, Reading that scripture echoed something, um, echoed a meditation I had during sacrament one day. Uh, the spirit is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Although I wasn't there, I could feel true testament of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. So that really moved me when I read that scripture.
[00:08:14] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Faye, I want to thank you for the way you started that story because I've never once considered connecting the word meditate.
I'm going to take the sacrament. Like you have just reframed the way I'm going to take the sacrament. I don't think we do that often enough. I think we're just so well, especially if you have little kids. I'm mostly worried about them making a lot of noise or dropping the thing of bread. So it's just important for us to take some time to really meditate on why we're at church and that is the purpose.
is to partake of the sacrament and to see what inspiration we receive. So Faye, thank you for sharing that. Both of you, beautiful things that the Holy Ghost taught you. Wow. And that's just the first couple of minutes right there. I think it's neat that we get to only study two chapters because they're just filled with so much goodness.
There is so much stuff. So in the next segment, we are just going to dive into these chapters and we're going to see what we can learn from the words of Lehi.
Segment 2
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[00:09:15] Tammy Uzelac Hall: So Katrina, I gotta be honest. I was pretty struck with the timing of this segment and how it all played out with your life. Because if we look at the book of Second Nephi, let's just turn there the second, this says the second book of Nephi and we have right at the very beginning, I want us to just kind of look at the section heading.
Katrina, will you just read the first sentence of the section heading?
[00:09:41] Katrina Maxton: An account of the death of Lehi.
[00:09:44] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Okay. So right out of the gates, we know Lehi is going to pass away. And so what we're reading are Lehi's final words. And I was struck by this because Katrina, just a week ago, your mother in law passed away unexpectedly.
I just have had all these thoughts like, what were her final words? What was it like for her or what kind of witness or person was she? I'm just curious to know all these things, how it applies to his final words. Because the question I was going to say is, what would your final words be to your children if you were passing away?
And then here you are experiencing this firsthand with your mother in law. Can you tell us a little bit about her? Maybe what were her last words?
[00:10:25] Katrina Maxton: I don't know that she had. Any last words to say? Because really, um, she went into hospital so suddenly and then She was put sedate, she was sedated, so she never really got a chance to, um, say anything.
But my husband was there when she passed, and I can't even tell you in words how much, as he's not a member of the church, but how much it meant to him to be there, to hold her hand as she gave her last breath. And I think we, we do celebrate the birth of a baby. My friend had a baby on New Year's Eve, we celebrated with, you know, abandon.
But do we celebrate death enough? I don't know that we do. And I just feel that her life was incredible. She did many wonderful things. Her life is a celebration. And so when she passed, not that we were ready or prepared, but, you know, when is a good time? It was God's will for her to go. So we were grateful that she passed peacefully and that we didn't have to, to worry.
However, Grandpa was supposed to die a month before her, and we were expecting that, and he did have us round the bed. To share a few words and what he did share with myself as a daughter in law and my, and my, our two children was how proud he was of us and how much he had enjoyed seeing us grow and, um, becoming good people and kind.
And, you know, it was more. He didn't impart anything more than just his love and, and just his desire to, to tell us that he was appreciative of the life that we, we'd led to that, to that point. So he's still with us though. He's still, he's still here.
[00:12:52] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Wow. So what was that moment like for you hearing those words?
[00:12:59] Katrina Maxton: Very emotional. I was so, I can't even tell you how, the spirit was there for sure. It was a spiritual moment in the life of myself and my child who is not active now, and uh, her brother. So yes, it was a very spiritual moment and those spiritual moments are, only come from God. They only come from him. They don't, they don't come from anywhere else.
And so it was a special
[00:13:35] Tammy Uzelac Hall: moment. Well, and as you were talking about your father in law, it made me think of this verse of scripture in second Nephi. We're going to go to sort of how all this ends. Go to second Nephi chapter four. Let's just look at verse 12 because I'm reminded of this, which you talked about your father in law.
Second Nephi chapter four, verse 12, Faye, can you read that verse for us, please?
[00:13:59] Faye Leydecker: Sure. And it came to pass after my father, Lehi. Had spoken unto all his household according to the feelings of his heart and the spirit of the Lord which was in him. He waxed old and it came to pass that he died and was buried.
[00:14:15] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Isn't that beautiful where it says he spoke according to the feelings of his heart and the spirit of the Lord which was in him. That kind of sounds like your father in law, doesn't it? Absolutely.
[00:14:24] Katrina Maxton: Yes. Definitely.
[00:14:27] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Yeah. That's so cool. Well, I was thinking about this because this is how it all ends before he passes away.
But second Nephi chapters one, two, three, and four then are sort of like father's blessings. Lehi is imparting his final words to his sons, and we get to have sort of a cool little inside look to what he had to say to each one of them, which is so powerful. And so when we dive into second Nephi, let's go back to second Nephi chapter one, verse one.
And we're just going to read verse one and see how he starts out. Katrina, can you read that for us, please? Katrina
[00:15:04] Katrina Maxton: And now it came to pass that after I, Nephi, had made an end of teaching my brethren, our father, Lehi, also spake many things unto them and rehearsed unto them how great things the Lord had done for them in bringing them out of the land of Jerusalem.
[00:15:24] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Thank you. What I think about my last words to my children, I like how it starts here where Lehi starts with all the great things the Lord had done for them. Could there be a better way to end things just by praising him? In fact, you see the word mercy and merciful several times that Lehi talks about how merciful the Lord was to them and all of the mercies that he had upon them.
And then he'll spend the next four chapters just teaching us some doctrinally significant truths. In fact, at the top of my page where it says the second book of Nephi, I wrote this quote. This is by D Kelly Ogden and Andrew Skinner, professors from BYU. And this is where they said, quote, Second, Nephi is one of the grandest doctrinal books ever compiled, end quote, because it's just rich with so much doctrine.
In fact, to the side, I have the journal edition of the Book of Mormon and to the outside, I wrote, here are just some of the main themes, but some of the main themes are the creation, the fall, the atonement, the scattering and gathering of Israel, the prophecies of the last days. And some of the authors of Second Nephi will be Lehi, Nephi, Jacob, as well as Isaiah, who they're going to quote several times.
So much Isaiah in these chapters. And so we get to just study these beautiful words that they have for us. And it is truly one of the grandest doctrinal books ever compiled. And we'll just see that today from our own experience. So I think this is going to be really fun for us to just kind of get a feeling for what we had to say.
And in the next segment, we're going to begin with the first son that he wants to speak to and what he has to say. So we'll do that next.
Segment 3
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[00:17:23] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Well, I just wanted to know this from both of you. Have either one of you ever received a father's blessing? Or if you don't have a father who's active, what could the equivalent be? That's my question too. So we'll start with you. Faye.
[00:17:37] Faye Leydecker: Right. Yes. Um, my, my father, I didn't regrow up with my father. My father left my mother when I was two years old.
So it was just, uh, yeah, it was mostly my, my mother, um, and my sister and she, but my mother, my mother is amazing. She is a monument of faith in Jesus Christ. I mean, the amount of, she, I mean, I truly have my testimony to her. She's amazing. Uh, but one blessing that I think I can think of a very special blessing is my patriarchal blessing.
So when I was 17 years old, I sought out, uh, My Patriarchal Blessing, and I hadn't read it in many, many years, and I recently took it out. It was very moving to read it and how it really applied to me, uh, but something particular happened about My Patriarchal Blessing is that, um, it was recorded, so it was a long time ago.
It was in the 90s, 1990s. It was recorded on a tape recorder, and, uh, the, um, the Patriarch. Uh, had the tape recorder in his car and his car got stolen with all the recordings from all the patriarchal blessings that he had done. So we had to have it done again. Uh, and the second one was slightly different from the first one, but there was an element in the first one that was not recorded, but it stayed with me forever.
And the patriarch said, I remember clearly, it's something that moved me very much. He said, Jesus Christ, you, Jesus Christ was very close to you in the preexistence. How special. You know, that was, that was very moving. And that wasn't written in the second one, but it's written here. It's written in my heart.
[00:19:11] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Oh, beautiful. Wow. What about you, Katrina?
[00:19:18] Katrina Maxton: Do you know, Faye and I talked about this already, so I would have to say the same. You know, my dad wasn't a member, I'm a convert to the church, um, I would love to have had a father's blessing, um, however, I do remember my patriarchal blessing very well. Um, I just sobbed the whole way through it.
I remember just being encased by love, the love that I felt was incredible. And as I've seen my life now, 30 years in the church, um, and you see how these blessings have, you know, evolved and as I have put my heart and soul. Actually into some of them, because I know that they are a blessing that I've been given.
For example, uh, one of them is that, um, I would involve myself. in the missionary program of the church, which I did serve a mission a year and a half after being baptized. I went on a mission, but not only that, I'm involved as a ward missionary just now, and I absolutely love it. I, I don't want to be released ever.
I would. I would be in this calling forever. I love it so much. So I'm facilitating a group, um, a Book of Mormon study group every Tuesday evening, which provides an opportunity for people who are not members to come in and read the Book of Mormon with us. Some have been baptized, some have come back and forth, some have dipped in and out.
You know, we had a girl there from Afghanistan last night. Her name is Zaheer. She, um, was so moved by our, um, testimony of Jesus Christ. Um, so, I mean, I love sharing the gospel because I know how much it meant to me. And I just cannot impress upon listeners enough that you are a member missionary. You are a missionary.
Don't sit stagnant in that because you will miss seeds of opportunity. There is family. Our family, a wide world family waiting out there to receive the truth, and we need to get busy because the end time is drawing neither, and people need to hear this message. What a light and a joy. It will bring into people's lives as we share, open your mouth and share what we know to be true.
[00:22:04] Tammy Uzelac Hall: That is my message. Oh, my word, Katrina, that was just a brilliant message, especially in light of what we get to talk about. Okay. A couple of things. First of all, Katrina said, we're a worldwide family. I can't think of better examples from the two of you when you said you didn't have fathers that could give you blessings, but your patriarchal blessing.
It's what you went to and how cool because patriarch means father. And basically you don't have to have a living dad to give you a father's blessing. You better believe that patriarchal blessing comes right from our father, our heavenly father. And when you read that blessing, It is a call to action for all of us.
And there is a definite call to action from Lehi to his sons and to us. So we're going to go into these verses, the call to action versus bracket off versus 12 through 23. Just put a, I just did a little line and colored down the side of all these verses. And I wrote to the outside. I Call of action by Lehi, or you could write Lehi's call to action.
And the reason we call it this is because there are many action words that Lehi uses in this part of his blessing to his sons. So we're going to start in verse 12 and we're just going to read verses 12 through 16. We'll each take a verse. And as we do, ladies, I want you to highlight. The action words.
This is a fun game to play. If you're ever going to teach seminary or institute to find the action words and ask your students to act them out. I would have totally done that and played charades to see if they could guess these action words. So let's highlight the action words and we'll just read in order of me, Katrina, Faye, Me, Katrina Fey.
Okay, here we go. I'll start in verse 12. Yea, as one generation passeth to another, there shall be bloodsheds and great visitations among them. Wherefore, my sons, I would that ye should remember. Yea, I would that ye would hearken unto my words.
[00:24:00] Katrina Maxton: O that ye would awake, awake from a deep sleep, Yea, even from the sleep of hell, And shake off the awful chains by which ye are bound, Which are the chains which bind the children of men, That they are carried away captive, Down to the eternal gulf of misery and woe.
[00:24:21] Faye Leydecker: Awake, and arise from the dust, And hear the words of a trembling parent. Whose limbs he must soon lay down in the cold and silent grave. From whence no traveler can return. A few more days, and I go the way of all the earth.
[00:24:38] Tammy Uzelac Hall: But behold, the Lord hath redeemed my soul from hell. I have beheld his glory, and I am encircled about eternally in the arms of his love.
[00:24:48] Katrina Maxton: And I desire that ye should remember to observe the statutes and the judgments of the Lord. Behold, this hath been the anxiety of my soul from the beginning.
[00:25:01] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Okay, you two. What words did you mark? What are the call to action words? Remember. Oh, good one. Remember. Absolutely. It's marked that. What else? Arcan.
Excellent. And I've just highlighted these and put a circle around them. So they really stand out. Uh, 13. What did you get? Awake. Awake from a deep sleep. Yes. What do you think it is in being implied by saying awake, awake, saying it twice? I think it's, he wants to bring it home.
[00:25:34] Katrina Maxton: He wants to, to let them know that they're, they're not awake.
They are asleep and they need to waken up. And it's not only just a sleep, it's a deep sleep. Waking from it, you know, you can almost see him, Lehi wanting to shake them.
[00:25:51] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Okay. Okay. You know. Yes.
[00:25:54] Katrina Maxton: You know, when your children were young and you couldn't get them out of bed and you had to go, come on now, it's time to get up, you know, that type of
thing.
I
[00:26:04] Tammy Uzelac Hall: thought the same thing when I have to wake up my youngest. If I just call out and yell, hey, wake up. No, that's not happening. I got to go in and physically wake up, you know, shake her and wake her up. I think you're right. I think Lehi is saying awake, awake. And then he even says, shake off these awful chains.
Like he is really trying to get their attention. Um, we have in verse 14, we have another awake, but did you mark another word in verse 14, either one of you? Oh, I like that. That's not what I found. I'm going to mark here. The words. What about you? Fay? What did you find?
[00:26:37] Faye Leydecker: Take off, shake off the awful chains by which you're bound. It's in shake off. I had, I had an experience. I only, you know, started coming back in January of last year and I was trying to change my lifestyle to come back to church and be able to be worthy to take the sacrament. And so I stopped. you know, started obeying the Word of Wisdom and stopped drinking alcohol and coffee.
And, you know, it didn't happen naturally. I had to work really hard on that. And the day it came and I was worthy to take the sacrament because I had abstained, you know, from alcohol and coffee, I just looked at my hands and I mentally could imagine breaking off. And I felt free, you know, free to choose lights, free to choose God.
So shake off, shake off his chains that really are there, you know, we don't see them and they all becomes clear, you know, when we're willing to
hear the spirit.
[00:27:29] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Well, Faye and I had a conversation prior to recording this podcast because I knew a little bit about her story. And so I asked her if she would feel comfortable.
sharing with us her story in light of these action words, because we have a remember awake arise, especially the part, remember, or hear the words of a trembling parent, especially what we know from Katrina about meeting phase mom and how she had things to share with a child who's left the church. And so fate, will you tell us a little bit about your story and how these words.
Applied to your experience of listening, awaking, arising and remembering
[00:28:06] Faye Leydecker: Last last year, I underwent several eye operations. I had retinal attachments, not in one eye, but both eyes and, um, and I found comfort in meditation. So I do like to find the calm in myself and then here make space for my thoughts and find my inner calm.
And on one occasion that was shortly before Christmas. Um, as I closed my eyes and focused my mind on finding, finding inner peace, I visualized the sun. I really love that. I've got a river, uh, near us, so I visualized the sun and this reflection on the water. And then suddenly, it had never happened before, um, a moving picture of Jesus Christ.
I recognize it because it was very similar to the pictures of Jesus Christ I had seen all my youth hanging around the church walls. It's the one, it's a portrait of Jesus Christ with the red garments. In fact, that day was red and blue. And the moving, that moving picture of Jesus Christ came out of the center of the sun.
So you've got to imagine me sitting there visualizing a sun and then out of nowhere. That picture pops out and the experience was so unexpected because I had not thought about religion. You'll be, you'll be horrified about this for more than 30 years. I wasn't looking for Jesus Christ. I was looking for peace and knowledge and enlightenment.
So I was as surprised as I was amazed. And then I wondered what message Jesus had for me. You know, you've got to imagine me sitting there. Gulp. The picture of Jesus coming into my mind and I was wondering why, what? And then jesus extended his hand towards me. I was smiling in an unexpected gesture and a slight nod of the head.
And then these words came clearly into my mind. He said, come with his hand extended. Come, my friend, follow me. And then I realized what a spiritual desert I had been crossing and how much I needed Jesus Christ in my life. Again, it was. It was absolutely amazing. I have to say that it was a sweet and unrelenting and all-encompassing love of Jesus Christ, that expectant smile, that love, the love that Lehigh spoke when he says he felt encircled in, in the, in the arms of Jesus Christ.
It's that love that drew me back to the fold of his church rather than the minister, fire and brimstone or the, the me, the threats of punishments and everything. And this is, uh, this is what brought me, I, I then decided to go back to find Jesus Christ. I wasn't sure which church I would go to because I thought there are other churches in Scotland, like, I won't name them, but churches in Scotland that would have suited my lifestyle then.
But I thought, I grew up in the church of Jesus Christ, it might be that's where I need to go. And I rang the missionaries and I said, um, Is it okay for me to come to meet at that time and they made, they made it really special. They organized for a member of church for me to sit next to when they came, they were at the top of the stairs at the entrance smiling and they shook my hand, they were waiting for me.
And it was, uh, it was an amazing experience. And particularly, uh, the, the lesson that relief society, what they, that day was about the different names of Jesus Christ was January last year at the very beginning. And I thought, this is it. I am exactly where I need to be. I came back looking for Jesus Christ.
And I have found him in that Relief Society lesson today. It was very, very special. In fact, we got to pick tags with the different names of Jesus Christ. And I picked the tag and it said, victor, the victorious one. And this tag still hangs off my computer today. I love to
look at it. I really do.
[00:32:15] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Oh my goodness.
He is absolutely your victor in all of, in, in coming back and the amount of, um, just how brave you were to do that. That is so victorious. Oh, Faye, as you were telling that story, it was just, I felt such a sense of peace and calm. That what you were saying was true. I loved that story.
[00:32:39] Katrina Maxton: I did too. I loved it.
[00:32:41] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Well, Oh my goodness. And what I think is so powerful is you can just see every element of awake, hearken, arise, remember. I mean, I think it's interesting how of all the churches, you could have gone to any one of them and then you remembered what you were raised with and that's the church that you chose.
[00:33:02] Faye Leydecker: Absolutely. And I think, you know, the state that was also talking about the spiritual desert that I crossed for 30 years, I wasn't really aware to the extent that it was a spiritual desert, how my spiritual self had been starved, really, and how I really missed that into my life. And it's like a, it's like a, you know, it's like a hypnosis with just living our lives.
I was living my life day to day, thinking about the things that needed to be done and not taking care of my spiritual, of my spiritual self. And, um, just by, by being filled with all that light and that love, I realized how much I, you know, how much I'd missed out.
[00:33:37] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Absolutely. Faith. Tyehank you. I really apprecour willingness to share that personal story.
It was brilliant. Thank you. Thanks. Okay. So that is what we're going to talk about as far as those action words go. But you know, Lehi's clearly not done. He's going to continue to speak to his sons as well as Zoram. What about him? Oh, he's there for this discussion and we're going to find out what Lehi had to say to him next.
Segment 4
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[00:34:13] Tammy Uzelac Hall: So Lehi continues his conversation with his sons and we just have to read verses 21 through 23. So we're going to each take a turn. We'll start with me again, then Katrina, then Faye, and we'll each read a verse. So here we go. Verse 21. And now that my soul might have joy in you and that my heart might leave this world with gladness because of you, that I might not be brought down with grief and sorrow to the grave.
Arise from the dust, my sons, and be men, and be determined in one mind and in one heart, united in all things, that ye may not come down into captivity, that ye may not
[00:34:51] Katrina Maxton: be cursed with a sore cursing, and also that ye, ye may not incur the displeasure of a just God upon you unto the destruction, yea, the eternal destruction of both soul and body.
Awake,
[00:35:07] Faye Leydecker: my sons, put on the armor of righteousness, shake off the chains which you are bound, and come forth out of obscurity, and
[00:35:14] Katrina Maxton: arise
[00:35:14] Tammy Uzelac Hall: from the dust. I would just love to know, as mothers of sons, how would you reframe these words? What do you think Lehi's, what's the message he's trying to get across to his boys?
I think he, well, he's trying
[00:35:27] Katrina Maxton: to, uh, yeah, to tell them to grow up in a way, just to
[00:35:33] Faye Leydecker: find, well, to, to choose the side, to choose the side of the light, really, to choose the side of the light. It's a little bit like in Star Wars. I know it's a bit, I don't want to make reference, but there will come a point in your life where you have to make a clear stand, you know, it's either good or evil, the light or the dark, and you need to, you need to wake to this
[00:35:51] Katrina Maxton: and make this choice now.
[00:35:53] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Ooh, that's so good. I like that. What about you, Katrina? Well, I'm just thinking,
[00:36:02] Katrina Maxton: how do you help a child know that what I want for him is happiness? And what he wants for himself sometimes is to be in the world. You know, we're, we're, we're thinking about their eternal happiness. I mean, no one loves them more than their moms and their, their parents do they, but they don't know that they don't realize that.
And they probably won't know that as teenagers until they become parents themselves, which is quite sad in a way, because, you know, you want. What's absolutely best for them. Lehigh, having seen the dream. You know, Lehigh's dream, he knew what they were going to choose, but even at that point he was still pleading with them, you know, so there is that element of, you know, we need to try today.
to impress upon them how important it is to stay the course. Um, and it's difficult sometimes when they don't see the picture that you see because you're older, you're wiser. They've got a lot of growing up to do still, and we can't knock them for that because that is the nature of growing up to become men.
You know, you have to go through the stages of life. We all have to. Um, so the pleading of Lehi to his son would be similar to my own. I just want him to do well. You know, you just want them to, to, to do the right things. And when they do. God, the, the pride, the, the, the love you feel for them. And when I see my son, who is 18, with the youth in our ward, and I see how he interacts with them, and how special it is, um, and how good he is with them, and what a good example he is.
You know, these are the things that mean so, so, so much. Do I tell him that enough? I hope I do, but maybe I do need to reflect on that, you know, um, but why are children so stubborn? I know it's a question we can all ask. Why are children so stubborn? And
[00:38:30] Tammy Uzelac Hall: I think of my own life. Why was I so stubborn? How often have I been like, I wonder sometimes if the Lord saying to me, listen, sister arise from the dust and be a woman like I know we talk about how it's geared towards men here, but remember he had daughters.
And so I wonder what part of this, you know, kind of crossed over for the young women for his, his daughters to hear. And I, I really like how you both put, cause I said. Your message overall is to just choose and to do well. That's what you both said. Choose and do well. Do the right things. I think that is the message that Lehi is trying to get across to his sons.
I'm going to leave and when I do, I just want you to choose and do well. In fact, we'll see that word choose often in the next chapter and in the next segment we get to talk about that. But let's go into second Nephi again. We're still in chapter one and we're going to look at verse 28. Go ahead and just put squares around the names of his sons.
He's speaking to, he says, and now my son layman and also Lemuel and Sam, and also my sons who are the sons of Ishmael. And then he reminds them just harken to Nephi, follow Nephi. He's going to lead you in the right path. And then he singles out in verse 30 and now Zoram highlight Zoram and put a square around that.
Now, before we get into what Lehi has to say to Zoram, I have a question for you. I'm going to write down your answers. So I want you to tell me what characteristics or qualities come to mind when I ask you about your best friend? What makes someone a best friend? Loyal. Loyal. Excellent. Keep going.
[00:40:08] Faye Leydecker: No matter what you've done, how long ago it was, have you spoken to them?
You always know in whatever situation you're in, you know that they're going to get your back and be there for you. That's, uh, yeah.
[00:40:22] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Oh, I like how you said get your back. That's awesome. Keep
[00:40:27] Katrina Maxton: going, Woodets. I think a friend is someone who reflects their Christ like qualities in you. Oh, wow, that's a good one.
You know, I've got a friend. I've got my bestie. We're so close. She lives in Arizona, however, so, but we talk a lot. And when we, when I'm going through something, a struggle, maybe with a person, because, you know, let's face it, we all have struggles with people. Um, I love it when she tells me she doesn't get into it with me.
She doesn't make it worse. She doesn't, You know, drum it up to something more, um, and she doesn't dumb it down to anything less, but she just gives me the, the Christ like way to choose to deal with something. And I think that's a real friend. When someone tries to help you through your turbulence with something that's on your mind that you need help with, you need support with, and they just know exactly the Christ like way to go about it.
And then that reflects back on me and I, you know, you, you almost want to choose what she thinks you can, you know, you, you just want to make it the situation better somehow,
[00:42:01] Tammy Uzelac Hall: you know. I'll be honest, Katrina, as you were talking, I heard so many other characteristics come out. I heard you say, thinks the best of you, supports you, helps you.
I love that. Gives you Christlike advice. You can talk to them whenever, I mean, every, you said that in your story, all of that came through. Those were. Great qualities of a best friend. And then Fay, I wrote what you said. How's your back is loyal and not just loyal. You said loyal no matter what or how long it's been or what the situation is.
Just that loyalty comes from a best friend. Because I asked you this question when you think about these qualities of a best friend, because the word friend Zoram. Look back at second Nephi chapter one, verse 30 and Katrina, will you please read verse 30 for us?
[00:42:49] Katrina Maxton: And now, Zoram, I speak unto you, Behold, thou art the servant of Laban.
Nevertheless, thou hast been brought out of the land of Jerusalem, And I know that thou art a true friend unto my son Nephi forever. Thank you.
[00:43:09] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Highlight true friend. Why did you do that face, Katrina? Everybody should have a
[00:43:14] Katrina Maxton: true friend, I think, you know, everybody needs a true friend, um, and forever, you know, my friendship with Stephanie, my friend, it will last forever.
I know we've talked about this. We want our mansions next door, um, hopefully if we have one, um, but. You know, you want them
[00:43:39] Faye Leydecker: to
[00:43:39] Katrina Maxton: be around forever. I don't want this life to be the end of my friendship with her. I want it to continue on.
[00:43:50] Tammy Uzelac Hall: It was beautiful how you said you don't want it to end and you want it to continue on.
Here's something really significant about the word friend in scripture. The word friend is a covenantal word. And so when it says right here, he's a true friend to Nephi, it goes beyond even being just a friend. It is a friend through covenants. Meaning, Zoram has committed his life through an oath to be Nephi's friend, like Zoram's not going anywhere.
And I want to show you a couple of scripture references that show us the word friend is a covenantal word that when you read it in scripture, hopefully your ears perk up and you think, Oh, is this through a covenant relationship? because we learned a couple of weeks ago that Zoram enters into a covenant or oath.
with Lehi and his family. He leaves Laban and Nephi says, as the Lord liveth and as I live, that's covenantal word, that's an oath, the oath of all oaths. And Nephi says, we will protect you. My father will protect you if you make a covenant with us. Now, look how cool this is. We're going to go to James. So you can put this cross reference next to true friend.
And the cross reference is James chapter 2, verse 23. Here is someone who was called a friend by God in scripture. Faye, will you please read James chapter 2, verse 23? And the scripture was fulfilled,
[00:45:15] Faye Leydecker: which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed
[00:45:20] Katrina Maxton: unto him for righteousness,
[00:45:22] Faye Leydecker: and he was called friend of God.
[00:45:27] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Thank you. Let's look at another one. Katrina, will you please read Exodus chapter 33 verse 11 and just read the first sentence and the Lord
[00:45:36] Katrina Maxton: speak unto Moses face to face as a man speaketh unto his friend.
[00:45:42] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Thank you. And some people will say, well, the word as makes this a simile. Okay. So. Moses didn't really speak to the Lord face to face, but many scholars agree this verse is specific to Moses speaking to the Lord face to face as a friend.
Scholars say that he spoke with him freely and familiarly and immediately, not by an angel in a dream or vision as he did to other prophets. That's an old Matthew pools commentary, which I think is so awesome. So they, scholars believe that really Moses was his friend. Now the next one, and this is where the Lord refers to us in this dispensation as his friends.
And the first time he does is in the Doctrine and Covenants. And it's in section 84, which you guys is the oath and covenant of the priesthood. And here's where he calls us friends by entering into this oath and covenant of the priesthood. We become his friends. So we're going to read doctrine and covenant section 84 and verse 77 is a great place to read.
Katrina, will you read that for us? And again, I
[00:46:52] Katrina Maxton: say unto you, my friends, for from henceforth I shall call you friends. It is expedient that I give unto you this commandment, that ye become even as my friends in days when I was with them, travelling to preach the gospel in my power.
[00:47:11] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Thank you. If you continue to read in section 84, it gives us the history of the Melchizedek priesthood.
And Moses specifically says in there, he wants the children of Israel to see the Lord face to face. He wants them to have the same experience he did. He wants the children of Israel to be God's friend. And that is the same message for all of us. We all get to be his friend. And then look how cool this is.
If you're a friend of God, could there be a better friend? God is loyal. He thinks the best of you. He has your back. Oh, he's going to absolutely reflect Christlike qualities in you. How perfect was that Katrina? You can talk to him. He has Christlike advice always. He will help you and he will support you.
Like your answers were just perfect. And yes, I love it. Even going to what you said, Katrina, we just want to live with him forever, right? And so it's just beautiful to think that here is Zoram. He is a true friend and to Nephi, but he's a true friend through covenants through this relationship they made back in first Nephi chapter four.
So I love that teaching and this idea of friends. What about you? Fay?
[00:48:18] Katrina Maxton: Well, when you're
[00:48:19] Faye Leydecker: talking about a friend with somebody, you know, that brings to mind, you know, the, what relationship we have with, with the Lord and Jesus Christ, a friend
[00:48:26] Katrina Maxton: is someone, you know,
[00:48:28] Faye Leydecker: it's someone you should recognize if you walked up to him in the street, you know,
[00:48:33] Katrina Maxton: uh, you should.
[00:48:35] Faye Leydecker: You should learn to feel his presence, to recognize his qualities, uh, in other people. Friend is very intimate, isn't it? Because we, we talk about the Lord and Jesus Christ in the
[00:48:46] Katrina Maxton: scriptures. Many people talk about him, but who actually knows him as a friend?
[00:48:53] Tammy Uzelac Hall: That was very deep. I like how you took that. So this idea of being in a friendship covenant relationship with our heavenly parents is so important because they are our friends and they want what is best for us.
And if we truly believe that our heavenly parents want what is absolutely best for us, then this next. Powerful truth, doctrinal truth is going to make so much more sense and we'll talk about that in the next segment.
Okay. I have been so excited to share with you what I learned in second Nephi chapter two. You guys, this is what the Holy Ghost taught me and it has been the coolest experience because I'm reading along. This was a while ago as I'm preparing for this episode. Now I have read second Nephi chapter two so many times.
Just looking at verse one, let's put a square around the name of who Lehi is speaking to. It says, and now Jacob, I speak unto you. He says, thou art my firstborn in the days of my tribulation in the wilderness. So here we go. Oh, and it's so sad because like your brothers were rude. It even says that the rudeness of your brother in, it was really tough times for you.
So he's speaking unto Jacob. And I'm reading and I'm reading, and then we get to verse 11. This is the classic verse of 2 Nephi chapter 2. Faye, will you read chapter 2 verse 11 and yeah, just read the whole verse. Okay. First,
[00:50:26] Katrina Maxton: it must
[00:50:26] Faye Leydecker: needs be that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my first born in the
[00:50:33] Katrina Maxton: wilderness,
[00:50:34] Faye Leydecker: righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness,
[00:50:40] Katrina Maxton: nor misery, neither good nor bad.
[00:50:43] Faye Leydecker: Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one. Wherefore, if it should be one
[00:50:51] Katrina Maxton: body, it must needs remain
[00:50:53] Faye Leydecker: as dead, having no life, neither death, nor
[00:50:57] Katrina Maxton: corruption, nor
[00:50:58] Faye Leydecker: incorruption, happiness, nor misery, neither sense, nor
[00:51:03] Katrina Maxton: insensibility.
[00:51:05] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Thank you. Now, listen, I have taught this verse so many times in seminary, in Sunday school, I have read it.
I know it, especially the part. It must needs be that there is an opposition in all things. And I thought that I understood it. But then as I continued to read this verse and it says, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness. Neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. And then here it is where for all things, meaning what we just read, righteousness, wickedness, holiness, misery, good, bad, all things must needs be compound in one.
And I was struck the word compound hit me. Because I thought, what exactly does that mean? So I look up in a dictionary, I look it up everywhere. I try to find the etymology of the word compound. Like why did he use the word compound? I studied this word for a full week. So if you are wondering, can you study one word in scripture for a week and have that count?
You bet. Because I did so much research on this word and then it hit me one day. Compound. Well, the only experience I have with that word was a compounding pharmacy. When I married my husband, he had two daughters and I've talked about Kirsten who's got mild cerebral palsy and she started having seizures and I took her to the doctor and it was her neurologist and he said, okay, well here's what you're going to need to do.
The next time she has a seizure, you're going to have to administer a very specific type of medicine to her. So, he says to me, here's the prescription, take it to a compounding pharmacy. It's the only type of pharmacy that can make this medicine that you need. But then I remembered my friend Cecil, who is a pharmacist.
So I, we're going to the movies as families one night and I've just got to ask him. So I see him, we're at the movie theater and I said, Cecil, talk to me about a compounding pharmacy. I don't understand why do we need them? And then he and I had the greatest discussion that just blew my mind about this word compound.
And so I want you to know what he has to say. So here he is. He's going to explain this to us. And as you listen to his words, I just want you guys to take notes, everyone listening, take down notes of things that strike you about the word compound. And then we'll discuss it after.
[00:53:22] Cecil Shern: So a compounding pharmacy is to fill the gap exists out there from big manufacturers, big pharma.
They make certain types of medication, different dosage forms, different things. And then sometimes people need a specialty medication. So it happens. I don't know. Let's just take a, an example of. Give us an example. Let's just go with Prozac because everyone knows Prozac. It comes in 10 milligrams, 20 milligrams and 40 milligrams.
Let's say like somebody needed 25 milligrams of Prozac. They wouldn't be able to find that on the open market. So they'd have to go to a compounding pharmacy and this compounding pharmacy would specially make a formulation that would deliver 25 milligrams of Prozac for that
[00:54:07] Tammy Uzelac Hall: person. Okay. So if I'm understanding you correctly, we need a compounding pharmacy to give us a specific type of dosage that you can't get from a big pharma.
It doesn't exist. So it has to be made especially for you. That right?
[00:54:21] Cecil Shern: That's correct. Medication doesn't, the actual Prozac is called fluoxetine hydrochloride. It doesn't exist by itself. It just. It doesn't exist. It has to be compounded with different excipients that make it deliverable to the part of the body that you want to get it to and then have it absorb into the bloodstream and actually do its job.
Oh, and get across the blood brain barrier, by the way, for Prozac, because it works in the brain.
[00:54:50] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Okay. Give me an example of an excipient. What do you mean?
[00:54:54] Cecil Shern: An excipient can be, it's just anything that you add to the medication. That's not the actual medication. So fluoxetine would have all kinds of delivery mechanisms.
Even the capsule, the gelatin capsule is an excipient that holds everything together. In fact, I took a whole course in pharmacy school. It's called drug delivery and dosage forms. And all they talked about was all the excipients that you add to get a certain drug to have The absorption metabolism distribution and excretion in your body that is the desired effect for that medication.
[00:55:30] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Okay, but wait a minute. What if let's say it's a pain medication and I just want the medicine that affects the pain. What if I don't want the all the other excipients and all the other fluff? Why can't you just give me the powdery substance to take? Wouldn't it just be quicker, faster, easier? And why can't we do that?
Definitely not quicker,
[00:55:50] Cecil Shern: faster or easier. First of all, it probably wouldn't exist without the excipients. It would be, in fact, I looked up the chemical, uh, safety data sheet or fluoxetine, and it says it's corrosive and irritant and environmental hazard. Does that sound like something you want to put inside your body?
Nope, not really. So it's all the excipients that make that, that make it. safe to put in your body and that deliver it to the part of your body, your brain, that, that you want the action to happen in. And so if you, first of all, you wouldn't want to hold it in your hand because it's corrosive and irritant, but if you could, then you'd put it in your mouth and then it would be corrosive and irritant in your mouth and a little bit might get absorbed and that little bit that got absorbed into your bloodstream probably wouldn't be enough to make it across the blood brain barrier.
But if it was, it would definitely wouldn't be enough to affect any change in your body.
[00:56:46] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Okay. This was so cool. So basically what you're telling me is in order for us to have the full efficacy of the medicine we need, you have to have excipients. There's no other way. Is that correct? That's correct.
There's no other way. Okay. So then I go back to verse 11 and look at this again. It says there has to be opposition in all things if it were not. So my firstborn, that's who he's speaking to. He says, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness, nor misery, neither good nor bad.
Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one.
[00:57:20] Cecil Shern: I think that this relates Awesome. Need a second Nephi. The medication has to have all the excipients in order to be delivered. And the medication is caustic and actually hurts by itself without everything else. And when he states where for all things must need be compounded into one, he's talking about all the good and the bad being combined together into one and, and us taking that pill.
For better, for worse, knowing that we are going to achieve that good effect that we want from that medication. I've seen this in my own life. I just look at my childhood. It was pretty hard. I had a lot of hard things and I probably through my teenage years, I was wondering like why is life so hard? Why, why do you have to keep on carrying on and what's, what is there any good that's ever going to come with this?
And then it was probably my late. Twenties that I was in a new ward, a new family ward, I was newly married and I just looked at my life and I was like, Oh, I'm so happy. And I'm able to do all, do all these things that I just, it was just the happiest time in my life. And there were other. People in that ward that had kids that were very unhappy and I, as I watched them, I saw that they had perfect parents and perfect life and they hadn't gone through all the struggles that I went through and I could see how They were in this exact same circumstance as me, but weren't happy.
And I could see the joy in life of just not having hard trials to go through and being happy.
[00:59:20] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Thank you, Cecil. I really appreciate you sharing your own personal experience and connecting it to this idea of compounded one. That was perfect. So thank you. So tell me some of the thoughts that you had as we discussed that all things must needs be a compound in one.
I just.
[00:59:40] Katrina Maxton: I loved that as well. I, I do think that some of the trials that I've had were necessary. I remember Quite a number of years ago, I just had my children and for some reason, well, I did find out eventually what was wrong, but I had a back issue and the back issue that I had, it just crippled me as a, as a young mom.
Um, I wasn't able to do the things that I wanted to do and it was just, it was an awful time. I went to the, to my GP. I don't know what you call, what do you call your, your doctor. I went to my doctor and, um, he told me that I needed to go and see a consultant. Went to see a consultant and the consultant said, there's nothing more that we can do.
It was a long process and in the end he said, you'll need to take medication, pain relief for the rest of your days. That was the answer. And I, I was a young woman and I, I just did not want to accept this as truth. It couldn't be true. So I went with faith and I started to, to pray and to look and to find out how could I turn this.
to a positive. How could someone so awful be turned around? Eventually, I went through a process of chiropractory and podiatry as well. I found out that I'd had an accident as a child. I fell down a flight of stairs and I got my coccyx was, was bent out of Um, it was, it was something that I wouldn't have known, but as I developed, as my bones developed, as I had my babies, this thing got really bad, really what it was awful.
So eventually they threw a very. Slow process, managed to fix the coccyx, which then eventually fixed everything else. But I went through that rough patch and I can honestly say that I was given a blessing and in that blessing I was told that I would find joy. In my pain, I would find joy in my pain and the brother that gave me the blessing had never given a blessing before and that was the only sentence that he said, you will find joy in your pain.
And at the time I thought, What? What's that all about?
[01:02:22] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Yeah. You're like, take the pain away. That's what you should say.
[01:02:24] Katrina Maxton: Yeah. So, but I really find that once this was all cleared, once I got my life back, once I got my hips back, once I could walk and I could get out the car and, and go to the toilet properly again, it was so all encompassing that.
It was amazing. I felt so much joy. My health was back. I felt good again. But if I hadn't gone through that process I wouldn't have experienced the, the great feeling of getting out of a car, the great feeling of being able to, to do, lift my children and do the things that I wanted to do. You do have to experience the, the opposition to know the joy.
and to find joy in your pain. So I, I can, that just made total and perfect sense to me.
[01:03:19] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Oh, fantastic, Katrina. Thank you for thinking that and thinking of her own experience. Excellent. What about you, Faye? What were your thoughts? Yes.
[01:03:29] Faye Leydecker: I mean, I, it's really, I can, I can totally relate to what Katrina is saying here about going through, through health issues and the miracle of having that mindset that, um, Everything we encounter is there on this, on our journey on this earth is there to give us an experience.
And if we go at it with this vision of this mindset of thinking, well, what is a lesson for me to learn? What is there for me in there? Then it turns out to be a positive. And I really admire that Katrina, that's absolutely amazing. Um, I have, I have, I've had health health issues as well, and it's amazing.
When you're, when you're healthy again, you can't believe it. So I remember when my eyepatches came out after my operation, so I could
[01:04:12] Tammy Uzelac Hall: see. This
[01:04:14] Faye Leydecker: is a miracle, it's amazing. I had, you know, I'd never, uh, I'd always taken this so much for granted. Um, However, yeah, the way I'm reading, I thought that struck me as I was reading, as I was reading that verse, was the opposition between
[01:04:31] Katrina Maxton: spiritual and material.
Just after
[01:04:35] Faye Leydecker: compounds, it says, it's still 2 Nephi 2 verse 11, it says, um, wherefore all things must needs be a compound in one, wherefore,
[01:04:46] Katrina Maxton: if it should be one body. It must remain as dead. And the thought that
[01:04:53] Faye Leydecker: struck me was that one body without a soul, because lots of people argue that we are just a body and that God
[01:05:02] Katrina Maxton: doesn't exist and therefore the soul doesn't exist.
There isn't a spirit,
[01:05:06] Faye Leydecker: spiritual aspect of us. And whether if we believe that there is no soul, and then if we believe there's just the body must remains. As dead, it's just earth, uh, earth being on earth and that the opposition was
[01:05:22] Katrina Maxton: between, you know, the, the spiritual, um, and the physical, just as it was
[01:05:27] Faye Leydecker: about, and we're going to come to speak to that later about, uh, the creation of, of the world, the transition between the spiritual and the physical.
And that both aspects need to interact in order to bring, in order for us to experience joy and in order for all humanity to, to
[01:05:48] Tammy Uzelac Hall: experience joy. Oh, you're absolutely right. Both of you. Thank you for your thoughts. I like how your brain thought through all of this as our guest was speaking. You know, the thing that strikes me the most in all of this is when we get to verse 13 because one of the things I had never considered is So often.
And when I was talking to Cecil, I said, when I asked him, but what if I just want the medicine that will make me good and happy? And I don't want the excipients. I was thinking in my mind, but what if I just want to experience righteousness, holiness, and good? I don't want the bad, the misery or the wickedness.
Can't I just have all of those good feelings all the time? And it struck me Oh, that's Satan's plan. And in fact, Moses chapter four teaches us that he wanted to destroy our agency and get all the glory. So all of that action by Satan would just remove the father from the equation and that couldn't happen.
In fact, we see in second Nephi chapter two, verse 13, that all of this agency and all the excipients prove that there is a God. It says, and if these things are not, there is no God. If these things are not a compound in one, if there can't be opposition in all things, then a God doesn't exist. And that was what we chose.
That was our pre earth life. We chose to follow a father who said, you're going to experience wickedness. Misery and bad. And that's okay because you'll also experience righteousness, holiness, and good. And all of it has a wonderful grand purpose. And the purpose is for you to return back to me. And you are required to do one thing.
And that one thing is, we'll talk about that in the next segment.
So here's the one thing that we have to do. Let's turn to second Nephi chapter two. We are still there. And this is where in verse 25, so, and Fay, you kind of alluded to this, that the rest of second Nephi is going to talk about the creation, the garden, Adam and Eve, the forbidden fruit and the forbidden fruit being there so that Adam and Eve had a way to choose which tree they were going to partake of.
And then we have Verse 23. Let's read 23 through 25. And Faye, can you read those three verses for us? Talking about Adam and Eve? 23
[01:08:20] Faye Leydecker: to 25. Oh, I've got those highlighted on
[01:08:22] Tammy Uzelac Hall: my phone. Perfection. Read them for us. Right?
[01:08:26] Katrina Maxton: And they would have had no children. Wherefore,
[01:08:29] Faye Leydecker: they would've remained in a state of innocence having no joy for the new, no misery doing no good for the new.
[01:08:36] Katrina Maxton: No sin. But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who know us. All
[01:08:41] Faye Leydecker: things. Adam fell that men might be, and men are, that they might have
[01:08:46] Tammy Uzelac Hall: joy. Why do you have those highlighted? Tell me about that, Faye. Um,
[01:08:52] Faye Leydecker: I, uh, it's, um, I was, I wasn't sure about the creation, you know, when I was out outside the church.
Even when I was in the church, there's been a lot of debates and, you know, science versus spirituality and things and, um, allowing all the souls in the preexistence, giving them the opportunity to have a body, to be, to be, to be incarnate. And I thought that was, that was.
[01:09:17] Katrina Maxton: Absolutely. Um, amazing.
[01:09:19] Faye Leydecker: She had,
[01:09:20] Katrina Maxton: I had the sense that she, that was her mission.
She didn't know how to do it
[01:09:24] Faye Leydecker: until she passed up of that fruit. And then, and then it all became
[01:09:29] Katrina Maxton: very, it all became very, very real.
[01:09:32] Faye Leydecker: And without her, we wouldn't have had this opportunity to have a body, which we
[01:09:35] Katrina Maxton: need to have in order to become
[01:09:38] Faye Leydecker: like. God, we need to have that. And so I was very impressed by the fact that she doesn't get the respect that she, we're all due to her because she's a mother of all humankind.
It's absolutely, it's absolutely amazing. And when I think of joy, I think of spiritual joy because
[01:09:56] Katrina Maxton: we're going to, we
[01:09:57] Faye Leydecker: cannot return there until, until we come back to Christ and accept his atonement. So, uh, I, I love the definition of that joy because it's the joy experienced when I decide to accept the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and think, well, I want to live my, to fulfill my eternal destiny.
And uh, and, and that's, that's a particular kind of joy that is not kind of match any worldly joy. The joy you, the joy I felt when I thought, this is my opportunity, I can fulfill my eternal destiny and I can go home to live with our heavenly father. The joy. It overcomes everything else that the world could, that the world could give.
It's absolutely amazing, so. And I also like to read that verse, Adam fell that men might be, like Adam fell that mankind might be, so that men and women might be, so that men and women could experience
[01:10:52] Tammy Uzelac Hall: joy. Oh, Faye. And the way you describe this idea that all of this is so we can become like him and this idea of having us experience joy.
But then you said that that joy overcomes everything. Now that was really powerful, that joy can overcome everything because going back to our discussion then. All things must be a compound in one. And there's something very significant that we have to do in this life. And it has everything to do with this word.
Going back men are that they might have joy. It doesn't say that they will experience joy, but that they might have it or possess it. And here's how we do that in verse 26, Katrina, will you please read verse 26. And the Messiah
[01:11:40] Katrina Maxton: cometh in the fullness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall.
And because that they are redeemed from the fall, they have become free forever. Knowing good from evil, to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the law, at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given them.
[01:12:09] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Okay, grab your highlighter, go back to verse 26 and highlight Messiah.
And the Messiah cometh in the fullness of time. He is the joy that overcomes everything. Adam fell that men might be, and men are that they might have joy. And how do we have the Messiah in our life? How do we have Jesus? It's all verses 27 through 30. And here's what Lehi says. And here's what we need to do.
It's one word that he's going to repeat again and again. And we have this word in verse 27. Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh, and all things are given to them with their expedient on demand, and they are free to choose right there. Highlight the word. Choose, choose liberty and eternal life through the great mediator of all men or to choose captivity and death.
Then he goes back in verse 28 again, he'll say, choose eternal life 29 and not choose eternal death. I think Lehi is just saying, I just need you to choose boys and daughters. Remember choose, choose to become like him. Fay is what you said over and over again, that this whole life is our chance to choose to be like him.
Here's a really cool quote. This is from D. Todd Christofferson talking about moral agency. And Katrina, will you read this quote for us, please? Using
[01:13:31] Katrina Maxton: agency to choose God's will and not slackening even when the good gets hard. will not make us God's puppet. It will make us like him. God gave us agency and Jesus showed us how to use it so that we could eventually learn what they know, do what they do and become what they are.
[01:13:56] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Thank you. Okay. So Lehi, and it's just beautiful how he says this, because we have in verse 30, He says, I've spoken these few words unto you all my sons in the last days of my probation. And then here we go. I love what Lehi says, and I have chosen the good part. I have chosen Jesus. I have chosen to be like them.
And so I like how Lehigh is like right here. I've made my choice. Please follow my example arise from the dust and be men's. I mean, it's all encompassing everything. Life is going to be hard. I know it, you know it, but just choose, choose eternal life, choose the great mediator, choose to follow Jesus. And when we think about our own lives, this choice that we need to make.
It comes to us on a daily basis. So here's my last question for you two. What has helped you to choose? What advice could you give to someone who was in a place where they just didn't know what to do? How have you chosen Jesus?
[01:14:56] Faye Leydecker: So, um, ever, ever since I've, um, as you know, I've prayed and developed a relationship with Jesus Christ and come back to church and being able to, to take the sacrament.
Um, what helps me every day when I think, Oh, should I do this or Can I, should I do the easy thing? I think, I, I so, I so enjoy
[01:15:15] Katrina Maxton: feeling the spirit. It's so beautiful. I would hate to do anything
[01:15:20] Faye Leydecker: that prevents me from feeling the spirit. And that's what helps me to, to choose Jesus because I feel so happy. We were talking about joy the whole time and I want to continue experiencing that joy of experiencing the spirits of being worthy of the company of the spirit.
Knowing what it felt like and for not having experienced it for so many years and it's so precious to me. So, um, I do make lots of mistakes, but um, I, I do try to choose Jesus because I want, because I want to be his friend. I want him to, I want him to be able to call me his friend, you know, for forever and ever after.
Um, if I had something to say to somebody who's struggling
[01:16:04] Katrina Maxton: to
[01:16:04] Faye Leydecker: choose Jesus, um, that's, that's my experience. I would say to them, I would say, there's nothing you have done that will ever stop Jesus from loving you. I am still amazed and overwhelmed at the grandeur of Jesus's love for me, after I had chosen to ignore him for 30 years.
I mean, he came back to me, came to find me, call me his friend. Jesus will never stop loving you. Just keep praying and telling him how you honestly feel inside and listen to how this makes you feel and feel his magic happen. And also I would tell somebody who's struggling too. Remember, their birthright would say, never forget your heavenly birthright.
You are a child of God, even when
[01:16:52] Katrina Maxton: you feel you
[01:16:53] Faye Leydecker: don't deserve to be, and God knows and loves each
[01:16:57] Katrina Maxton: and every
[01:16:57] Faye Leydecker: single one of us. He loves us even when we stop loving
[01:17:01] Katrina Maxton: ourselves.
[01:17:02] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Thank you. I absolutely will witness a second witness to Faye. He does love us even when we don't love ourselves and he loves us so much.
Thank you, Faye. What about you, Katrina?
[01:17:15] Katrina Maxton: Well, you know, it's funny because I wanted to reach out through the screen to the listeners as well. Um, I know that Faye did there, and I'm thinking about someone out there who is struggling to find or to choose Jesus. And I know how hard that is for a lot of people.
I work with a lot of people who are coming into the church, who have been out in the world for a long time and have been encircled by the arms of the world. You know, we want the opposite of that. We want to be encircled by the arms of Jesus. And I know, myself, through my own experience, that being encircled by the world can be frightening, it can be numbing, it can be crippling, and it can be crushing.
But I want you to imagine That Jesus will go to the depths to save anyone. I have experienced that first hand on my mission when, uh, someone who had had, uh, a terrible experience when he was in Vietnam, um, many atrocities took place there. And he was, he thought he was beyond, like Faye was saying, he thought he was beyond his reach.
His, um, he'd reached the tipping point. He didn't know, uh, that there was, um, there was hope. Well, I want you to know that in that moment, Christ absolutely encircled him with the arms of his love through the words that I shared with the man that he put there. Jesus put those words in there. The man asked if he could be forgiven, and I didn't have the, the The words to tell him, yes, but Christ did, and I know it was him.
that told him that he'd been forgiven. I have never forgotten that experience. When anybody tells me, well, he won't save me, you know, I've done what I've done. I cannot tell you how much of his reach will Bring you out of the hole that you're in. I just want to quickly share a poem that means an awful lot to me.
I've no idea who wrote it. I've known it for years and I just love it. You may say you need to reach a certain height of goodness before you reach God. But he says, not at the end of the way you will find me. I am the way. I am the road under your feet. If the way is in the hole, then the way is in the hole.
But the moment you begin to turn your face towards him, you are walking with him. So always remember, when you're in a hole, The moment you set your face towards him, you are walking with him, and he will walk with you. Because as Faye said, he is our friend, your friend, my friend. He wants to reach out for you.
And just remember that, that's my advice anyway, to remember that he wants you. He wants you in his church. He wants you to be with him. That's his ultimate goal. Lehi wanted his children to be with him. He wanted them. He stayed by that tree and beckoned his family to come because he loved them. Christ is doing the same and he's cheering us all on because he loves us.
[01:21:21] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Oh, Katrina. Thank you. Thank you to both of you. Oh, I love you women so much. That was just a lovely discussion today. Thank you so much. Boy, what a feeling of calm and peace and then joy. So much happiness. So do this at the end of each episode. I just asked my guests to gather their thoughts and what is your takeaway from today's episode?
What's something you learned or something you're going to remember or want to share with someone that you learned from this episode? It
[01:21:52] Faye Leydecker: reminded me, that's why I told my mum when I was 18. I said, am I a good person, a bad person? I want to choose and do what I want. Break away from the church, be myself without being told what I want to be.
And ultimately, um, choosing Jesus, it makes my life a lot brighter and happier and it's more every, everything that I want to be. But talking about opposition as well, I want to say having said no, and then having said yes again, I now appreciate my relationship with Jesus Christ and my life in the church so much.
For me, even more than when I, um, when I didn't know what it was, what it was like to be, to live without the spirit, I would say choose the spirit because it makes life so much happier. Don't waste
[01:22:36] Katrina Maxton: your
[01:22:36] Tammy Uzelac Hall: time. Mm. Amen. Beautifully said. Perfect. Katrina.
[01:22:44] Katrina Maxton: My takeaway has got to be Faye's, um, imagery and just the beautiful way in which she described her experiences.
They just felt real to me. I, it's something that I've not had, and. I just, the beauty of it, it's just beautiful and I'm glad you shared it with us tonight. Thank you.
[01:23:12] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Yes, absolutely. Mine is going to be when Faye, when you said You opened your first experience by talking about how you really understood what it meant to be bound with the chains and that you had been bound.
You felt that physically feeling chains breaking off of your wrists when you tried to keep the word of wisdom. Um, that is an image I will never forget. So thank you for just taking that verse of scripture and applying it to your life for me to see. That was a great image. And Katrina. I really appreciated the story you shared with us about your father in law and how beautiful that was and gathering his family together to share that.
I just, I imagined this Lehigh esque moment for your family. So that was very cool. So thank you, ladies. We're done. That's the end.
[01:23:58] Katrina Maxton: Thank you, Tammy. Thank you, Faye, so much.
[01:24:02] Faye Leydecker: Thank you, Katrina. Faye.
[01:24:03] Katrina Maxton: Yes. All the best. All the best. Oh, gosh. What
[01:24:08] Tammy Uzelac Hall: was your takeaway? Mostly, and here's the thing I'd love to know. I'd love to know your thoughts on the explanation of compound.
I mean, if you are still reeling from that, just go drop us a message on Facebook or Instagram because I would love to know how you've connected it and how it all makes sense. I hope it makes as much sense for you as it did for me because boy, it changed the way I view that verse of scripture. Or you can wait until Saturday and we're going to post a question from this specific episode.
And so comment on the post that relates to this lesson and share your thoughts. You can get to both our Facebook and Instagram by going to the show notes for this episode at ldsliving. com slash Sunday on Monday and go there anyway. It's where we're going to have links to all the references as well as a transcript of this whole discussion.
So go check it out. The Sunday on Monday study group is a desert bookshelf plus original brought to you by LDS living. It's written and hosted by me, Tammy Usilak Hall. And today are just so incredible. Study group participants were Faye Lidecker and Katrina Maxton. And you can find more information about my friends at LDS living.
com slash Sunday on Monday. Our podcast is produced by Cole with Singer and me. It is edited and mixed by Cole Wissinger and our executive producer is Erin Hallstrom. Thanks for being here. We'll see you next week. And please remember, oh, please remember that the Messiah, he is your friend and you are God's favorite.