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[00:00:00] From the last two episodes, here's what we know. Moroni circumstances are very grim, like so grim. And here he is writing on the plates and he decides to include two letters and some teachings from his dad, Mormon. Now listen, Mormon, he's going to get pretty graphic as he describes the horrors and atrocities of his day to the point that he actually worries that his son is going to grieve, or he even says be weighed down unto death.

Now, then he tells Moroni. To cheer up and have hope because you know what? Jesus Christ lives. So, how can we have hope in Christ regardless of our grim circumstances? That's the question we're going to examine throughout this entire episode. And I'll tell you, my guests, they kind of know something about finding hope in Christ, even when they might be weighed down by grief, even unto death, and their circumstances might seem grim.

Welcome to the Sunday on Monday study group, a desert bookshelf, plus original brought to you by LDS living, where we take the come follow me lesson for this week. And we're going to really dig into the scriptures together. I'm your host, Tammy. Uzelac Hall. Now, if you're new to our study group, please follow the link in our description, and it's going to explain how you can do that.

Best uses podcast to enhance your come follow me study, just like my friends, LaVon Riggs and Linda Halbert from Arizona ladies. I loved meeting you. Thank you so much for coming in saying hello. Now another awesome thing about our study group is each week we're joined by two of my friends. So it's always a little bit different and today is different and I'm so excited.

Okay. Oh my gosh. I'm going to introduce to you first. My very best friend in the entire world. We've known each other since we were 17 Laurel Christensen day. Hi Laurel. Hello, Tammy. So good to be here. Oh, well, listen, she's been on a couple of times and like I said, we go way, way back and I just had to invite her when we got a yes from this other guest who Laurel and I both adore and it is Lisa Valentine Clark.

Hi, Lisa. Hi, thanks for inviting me to the party. It feels like a party with you too, so. Oh my gosh. Okay, let's say how we all know each other. This is so fun. So I'm going to go Laurel and Lisa. How do you two know each other? I mean, I feel like we've known each other for a really long time, but I guess it's relatively short.

We met, how did we first meet? So we met in 2000. 11, 2010, um, with, uh, you were involved in a little project as a rep book did called pretty darn funny. That's right. And that is how we met. And I, as soon as I met you thought, Oh, what master plan can I create to make Lisa be my friend? So I was lucky enough to know you for long enough that I got to, um, meet and just, you I adore your sweet husband, Christopher.

Oh, and he adored you too. I mean, yeah, we've known each other a long time, yeah. And it's special that, you know, like, you know, my kids, you know, my husband, it's yeah. And then I kept the two of you apart as long as I could, because I knew once the two of you met, there would be no need for me. So I'm, I'm very, very exclusive in that regard with my kids.

Very greedy with my friendships. So it is a really special thing though. And I think the older that I get, the, the less that I take it for granted when you meet somebody. And this is the experience that I had with meeting each one of you individually, where you meet and within about, Oh, I don't know, two, maybe, maybe three minutes.

You're like, Oh, okay. So, Oh, okay. So now we're going to be friends forever. Cool. Cool. Yeah. And when you've ugly cried with people. Like, or when you've, I've actually had the experience of texting both of you from a bathroom stall, um, on different occasions. And I think like when, when it's that, that's when you know, like, this is somebody I need in my life.

So, yeah, I would agree. And I also have to say this about Lisa, I, I think because when I, the first time I met her, I was like, Oh, we're going to be friends forever. And then I, I realized she's, she kind of is that way with everybody though. She has this natural gift that when people meet her, they're like, Oh, we're totally good friends.

And I'm like, are you though? It's heartbreaking when you think you have something special with someone and you find out everybody has something special. Everybody. Lisa, it's her spiritual gift. She just draws you in. I mean, truly, like when we met, it's totally true. Within minutes, you are deep diving into personal feelings and emotions with Lisa.

There's no fluff talk with her. I don't like to know you. I'll talk, you know, I don't have any patience for it anymore. You would have been such a great therapist, Lisa. You really would have. You missed your calling. Well, she kind of is right now. Let's be clear. That's so I'll bill you later. Don't worry. No, yeah.

Listen, Lisa hosts a podcast called the Lisa show, and she does some amazing things. Uh, if you have not already heard about it, you can Lisa, just tell everybody where they can find it. Give us a little spiel about you, what you do. You're bad. You could download the free BYU [00:05:00] radio app and get it there or anywhere that you download podcasts.

But I really like it. It's like going to lunch with a friend. We always describe like you're having that really important conversation that, that, you know, you need to live a good life and we have a good time over at the Lisa show. And I don't take myself too seriously, but some, some subjects are and, and a lot art and it's been really fun.

Okay. So go check it out. And if you want to know more about my guests, go read their bios, cause their bios are going to be found in our show notes, which are at LDS living. com slash Sunday on Monday. And so you're going to, if you're like me, you first, you want to see what the people look like, and then you're going to stalk them a little bit and find their, you know, social media presence and all that fun stuff.

So fun. Uh, and then when they're credible, you're like, okay, here we go. Let's hear what they have to say. And so you are going to want to listen to this episode. I am so excited. I told them before we started, I poured over this episode and the theme just kept coming over and over again. Okay. You two right out of the gate.

Tell me, what did the Holy Ghost teach you as you read these chapters? Well, I'll go ahead and go first. I, um, so funny. I read these chapters of like, yeah, I know what this is, but I'm going to, you know, study it up. Anticipating this conversation, um, thinking, uh, I don't know why I do this all the time thinking I won't really find anything personal about my, my personal situation in these particular chapters at the end of this horrible civilization.

And there I was, there I was, there was my situation in there. And I know that we always. Quote this scripture, but isn't this the way that the Holy Spirit, like speaks to us something that we've read a million times before and all of a sudden we see it in a different way that happened to me that happened to me when I was studying these, uh, with, um, Moroni 745 about charity and I was, I sort of had this idea of charity, um, I remember growing up and thinking, well, that's it then that that's the whole purpose of life is to create charity.

If you can do that, then that is like the heart of the gospel. That's how you want to be. That's how you want to live your life. And then after an intense time of taking care of children and my dying husband and like a lot of. difficult caregiving. I was like, maybe I shouldn't pray for charity so hard. I got it.

I got it. Lesson learned. Well, a little bit. And now I find myself, you know, in an absolutely different phase of life and kind of unsure of. There isn't like a really a traditional path for me right now, you know, where a lot of times like when you have little kids, it's very clear what your purpose is, right?

Like you take care of them, you know what I mean? And you have this and I find myself in, in a time of transition. And this scripture taught me, these are the things that, Um, I should be doing now and it wasn't what I had, um, anticipated and charity suffered long and is kind and envious not, and is not puffed up, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil and rejoices not in iniquity, but rejoices in truth, beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

And that spoke to me as I was studying this as just a new slight kind of softer way to be able to see my life, to see my life purpose of, no, this is, this is what it is that the circumstances in any sort of transition in your life or stage can be different. But this is, this is a, this is a focus that I can hold on to.

I have to tell you, Lisa, I felt the spirit so strong as you read that verse. Because you described your life and it almost seems like the first couple of ones describe motherhood and raising kids and going through all that. And then the last part describes your experience with your husband and where you are right now in your faith journey.

Um, that is, I love that that stood out to you. That's awesome. That's thank you for sharing that. Thanks. What about you, Laurel? Mine was a little unexpected. I, I think I felt a lot like Lisa of like, I, I know exactly what's going to pop out at me. And it wasn't at all what I thought. In fact, it was a, um, it was something that I've never noticed.

So I've never been a fan of the phrase endure to the end. I just think it makes life sound like such a drudgery. Well, certainly it can be really hard. I have to rely on a belief that we're meant to have joy and goodness in life too, because I, I just get so weary of all the hard talk. So I was actually, I ended up being struck by a phrase, um, in chapter eight, verse three.

So Mormon is praying for his son Moroni and, and he tells him so. And then he [00:10:00] says, he asked the Lord to keep you Moroni. Through the endurance of faith on his name to the end. And I, that phrase, keep you through endurance of faith just stopped me. And for some reason, that's the first time I think I've a understood what it means to endure to the end, that it's an endurance of faith, not just enduring through something hard.

I've never made that connection. I'm embarrassed to and be. That's what our covenants do. Is allow us or allow the Lord, rather, to keep us through the endurance of faith to the end. And I don't know why exactly that created such a paradigm shift for me, but I loved it. And it changed the way I feel about that dreadful endure to the end phrase, because it's not about enduring to the end just to endure.

It's about Enduring with my faith and that the Lord will keep me because of my covenants with him. That was just a Like, I was not expecting that little bit of, Oh, you think you know everything? Okay. Read verse three. One more time. You've missed something really critical for like over half of your life.

That is so good. Just yesterday, I'm not even kidding. I had a conversation with a friend of mine about faith and it hit me for the very first time connecting it to this verse. Now I'm going to have to call and share this with her, that the first principle of the gospel is faith. Amen. And I've always known that, but we were having this conversation in context of what we know versus what we believe.

And it struck me that the first principle of the gospel is not to know that Jesus is the Christ. It's to have faith that Jesus is the Christ, that pretty much everything we ultimately it's to know that's our goal is to get to the knowledge part. We'll eventually figure it out and know it. So let's just endure in faith.

Laurel, that is good. That's good. The spirit. We start with faith. We end with faith. Faith to endure. Yeah. And faith to be baptized. Yeah. For the hope. Like it, it, it, it is. It's the way that we frame our minds to be able to go through life. Yeah. Yeah. Amen. Wow. Okay. That was so good. That's just the first segment.

Things that the Holy Ghost taught you. This is so fun. All right. So here's what we're going to do in the next segment. We're going to carry on with our theme and in the come follow me lesson for the week, it really does say I can have hope in Christ regardless of my circumstances. So I'm going to ask my friends in the next segment, if it's really can be done, we'll do that next.

Segment 2

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Let's turn to Mormon's words to his son Moroni, and we're going to start with the end before we get to the beginning. So everyone go to Moroni chapter nine. We just want to see the words of how difficult it is. So, Moroni chapter 9, verse 1. Laura, will you read that verse for us, please? Yes. My beloved son, I write unto you again that you may know that I am yet alive, but I write somewhat of that which is grievous.

Now, we're going to cross reference that verse. So next to verse one, put verse 25 and let's turn to verse 25. We're going to add a little bit more to how grievous it is and what he has to say. And Laura, will you just read for us to the second semicolon, my son be faithful in Christ and may not the things which I have written, grieve thee to weigh thee down unto death.

Thank you. So there is his wording that we use at the very beginning. And then throughout this whole course of this discussion, Mormon is going to tell his son Moroni, listen, it's really hard, but I just want you to cheer up and find hope in Christ. And so this is how bad it is for him. Now, before we get to the cheer up part, I want to know what did you to Mark that also tells us how grievous and how awful these times are.

What did you mark in on? I, chapter nine. I just, I marked the phrase, um, no fear of death because they have lost their love one towards another. Just, what verse is that? That is right in verse five. I just thought, how bad is it when you don't have a fear of death? It's one thing to not have a fear of death because you have such contentment in your life.

You're at peace at where you are with God and with your fellow men. But to have a. No fear of death because you've actually lost your connection. So death is no big deal because you don't care about anybody anyway. It just, it felt a little eerie, honestly. Um, I think there's so much contention in our world today and so many people who've lost their love towards one another.

And. It feels heavy today, and it felt heavy then I just that phrase just kind of gave me chills and not a good [00:15:00] way. You know, I marked the order that It was described. So at first from like verses nine to 11, it talked about, they are just, you know, without civilization, depravity, without order, strong and perversion, brutal, sparing none.

And then in the middle, he takes sort of, it seems to me, takes a breath and says, this happened so quickly and the judgments of God need to come right now. Like he interrupts himself in describing the scene to say, you can, I could almost feel his like. I can't believe this, that it happens so quickly and he calls for judgment.

And I, of course, circled many widows. There were many widows. And to me, that means something different as a widow of like, Oh yeah, there's a lot of women on their own doing it all in, in this civilization. And this is how they mark. This is noteworthy. And then he goes back into it and talks about the depravity and really.

At the end of verse 19, in parentheses, I just put, too much. It's too much. He's describing a world that we don't live in now, but that is, Horrible, horrible. You know, and then it goes beyond past feeling it, it, it is without civilization. And so that really stood out to me. Will you read verse 19 for us?

Yeah. And they have become strong in their perversion and they are alike brutal, sparing none, neither old nor young, and they delight in everything save that which is good. And the suffering of our women and our children upon the face of this land doth exceed the Everything. Yea, tongue cannot tell, neither can it be written.

That is too much. Mm hmm. And I think it's interesting that He doesn't describe more. I'm curious about that. I did have the thought in reading this that, you know, so many of us are fortunate enough to say like we can't imagine the kind of depravity and the kind of viciousness and the kind of just awfulness.

And I couldn't help as I was reading this to think of our brothers and sisters that we have even today in lands of conflict and over history, who, you know, Who, you know, when you see images of the suffering of women and children, even today, in so many lands in the world, you think, I mean, a lot of, a lot of our brothers and sisters have suffered this kind of, yeah, that is just abomination.

And how fortunate those of us who don't know that kind of suffering have been. But I think reading this, it, there is a part of me that goes to, Oh, we can't even comprehend. And I think, Oh, we have brothers and sisters who can comprehend who, who know what it is to, to be living in a space of such brutality.

And I, I don't know how that are spared. Yeah. None are spared. There's no respect for. Yeah. Even women and small children. Yeah. Nope. None are spared. So let's take this truth that we know and what we have read here and what we are experiencing in the world today. And let's answer this question. How can we get through this grievous and unfavorable circumstances then with Christ?

What is your advice for getting through really grim times that even so grievous can weigh you down unto death? I'll just share. It really is the primary answer of. of Jesus. And in verse 25, where it says, may Christ lift the up and the hope of his glory rest in your mind forever. There's something about the truth of that, that concept of resting in your mind, that when chaos and difficulty is around you, um, I mean, we we've all read stories of people who've just survived unbearable things who have a belief in Jesus and the difference that makes.

And, and I, I hate to simplify it in that, like, I hate to make it that simple on one hand, because it, it could be patronizing, or it could sound just like a nice little platitude, but Those of us who have chosen to believe and see Jesus Christ as a personal Savior and Redeemer, I think we all have had experiences where that peace in Christ is a real thing.

And in those moments, I think it's the only thing and how that looks for all of us is different. [00:20:00] But. I mean, it really does all come down to Jesus again and again and again and again, and I, I find a lot of hope in that, that Christ, it's not just that he magically lifts you up. It's that it's the hope of his glory.

It's the hope of his glory and to let that rest on your mind, I, I think is powerful. I love that, Laurel, and I don't think that it's trite. I think it's simple because it's accessible and it has to be accessible to everyone. It's further proof because it's so simple that God loves all of his children and that all of them can access that kind of hope.

It's not just for those who can, you know, You know, figure out a complex set of our weight of life. Um, so I love that. And I, I've, I've find a lot of hope and comfort in that as well. Like, I think, you know, for context for me makes this. Scripture at the very end, verses 25 and 26, at the end of chapter 9, so powerful.

I noticed this time reading that, um, that Mormon, when he's talking to his son, he uses the words, I fear, I fear, I fear. And I think, uh, you know, we can interpret that as, literal fear or something that he's worried about. And so this is why he's teaching us. But at the, at the end, it in two places in, in verse 24, he said, if you know, if we perish, if you are spared, and I just think, what would it be like to be writing a letter to your son saying, if you're spared, I want you to know this, like, because he didn't know.

He didn't know. He didn't know. It wasn't like he was like, I know. And the Holy Spirit told me that everything's going to be okay and you're going to be okay. It's it, they didn't know their immediate circumstances of what we're having yet. So he hangs on to these last two verses so strongly. And they just feel more powerful to me.

Um, when we say grieve thee to weigh thee down unto death, I, I probably read that as a teenager and young adult and thought, Oh yeah, like, Really sad. And then through life experiences where knowing such a deep and profound sorrow of loss, um, that piles on that you don't want to live. I mean, that, that makes having that experience and, and, and.

And choosing to, to continue makes that phrase mean a little bit more. But may Christ lift thee up and may his suffering and death in verse 25 and the showing of his body unto our fathers, like almost like, remember, remember, and his mercy. And his long suffering and the hope of his glory and of eternal life, um, rest in your mind forever.

And Laura, I love what you said. Like, it just seems like rest in your mind. And for me, when I've had moments of extreme, um, I don't know how to explain it other than like distress, uh, worry, uh, no hope or dim dim hope. What has gotten me out of there is the possibility of a hope of a hope in Christ. Like I might not be able to figure out a way out of this.

I might not imagine ever feeling happy or joy, but I, but God is good and I do know that. And I have hope that Christ actually did come to earth and suffer for our sins and that glory. Is, is there. And that, and, and giving God the benefit of the doubt in a real time and assuming that goodness, I think, is part of faith in a way that I haven't previously mentioned.

So, you know, a lot of times we'll talk about like maybe divine quietness, uh, meaning, Oh, it's God mad at me. I don't feel this. And, and, and assuming the good in God, like saying. Well, maybe he trusts me to make the next step, or maybe I just need to rest and assuming other things that are good about God for me has been a practice that has helped strengthen my faith and has, has gotten me out of, um, weighed down thoughts that make me grievous and to death.

Lisa, thank you. And Laurel, I loved everything that you guys said. So let's finish up this segment then and read verse 26. Lisa, will you read that for us? And may the grace of God, the Father, whose throne is high in the heavens, and our Lord Jesus Christ, who sitteth on the right hand of his power, until all things shall become subject unto him, be blessed.

and abide with you forever. Amen. Thank you. And so while we wait for that moment, and I, I, I add to that, I'm going to cross reference chapter eight, verse three, that we endure in faith. So great Laurel, keep you through the endurance of faith. All of this is, is [00:25:00] the end result of what we hope. So we started with the worst.

So now we're going to go. And in the next segment, we're going to start with the winning trifecta for how we can handle grievous circumstances. So we'll do that next.

Segment 3

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So I had this thought come into my mind when I read this verse, let's go to Moroni chapter seven, verse one. I had the thought of winning trifecta. That's what came to my head. Let's read Moroni chapter seven, verse one, Laurel, can you read that for us? And now I'm her own. I write a few of the words of my father, Mormon, which he spake concerning faith, hope and charity.

For after this manner, did he speak into the people as he taught them in the synagogue, which they had built for the place of worship? Okay, now highlight The winning trifecta faith, hope and charity. Now this was so cool though, because I, this is what a trifecta is. I actually looked it up and Laurel, you have a little bit of knowledge of this.

So fun fact about Laurel. She's a big fan of the Kentucky Derby. Huge. Laurel, tell us about it. What do you love about it? Well, we, I lived in Kentucky during my formative years. And, um, I'm going to be honest, I really like the food that accompanies the Kentucky Derby. I also think it's fascinating to have so much pomp and circumstance over 90 seconds, like 90 seconds.

And you could just have a horse. It's 90 seconds. And you can have a horse that's just like not feeling it that day and everybody and like put all of everything into this one horse. And the horse is just like, Yeah. No, not feeling it, but it's 90 seconds. It's, it's so much hoopla and so much money and pomp and circumstance over 90 seconds.

It just fascinates me, but I, I do, I, I love the food of the Kentucky Derby. I know that's not what you were going for in that. So it's absolutely first, I just want to know if you have the hats. Oh, I have hats. Oh, Oh, Oh, I have hats. Okay, good. She has had, and Steven has a seersucker suit and we go all out.

So yeah. And she makes a Derby pie. Yeah, I mean, the Derby pie is fantastic browns, sweet potato hash Derby pie. It's the best. So okay, that is so perfect because this is what a winning trifecta is that it has everything to do with a Kentucky Derby or a horse race. It's when you place a bet on a horse race.

And the better has to predict which horses will win first, second and third in that exact order. And if you can predict that it's a huge win, like you win the biggest, the biggest win that there possibly is. So now we're going to apply that to this verse because the winning trifecta for getting through grievous circumstances is, and, and not even that getting through life is faith, hope, and charity.

And all three are going to help you win the race. So big. And I think it's interesting, Laurel, that you're like, it's just 90 seconds. Like, I wonder if that's what it was like up in our pre earth life where we're like, it's just 90 seconds. We got this. Just send me down. I'll be right back. No big deal. And I do think that we were naive.

I do. Oh, so naive and clapped or whatever. Like, I think, yeah, I'm sure we did. I know when it says the stars of heaven, but it says we cheer for joy in the book of Job. I'm like, that might be a mistranslation. No, I think we just were naive. I think we were naive. Yeah. And we came, we were like, Oh, this'll.

Yeah, for sure. Sober you. So here's Mormon. He's like, all right, son, let me help you all out. If you can have these three things, it's not going to take it away, but it sure is going to make it a lot easier. So just bear with me. So before we can actually dive into the winning trifecta, though, what I thought was really interesting.

We have to find out who the jockeys are. And the jockeys are specifically in Moroni chapter 7 verse 3. This is so cool. It's who's who is in this race. Lisa, can you read verse 3 for us? Wherefore, I would speak unto you that are the church, that are the peaceable followers of Christ, and that have obtained a sufficient hope, by which ye can enter into the rest of the Lord, from this time henceforth, until ye shall rest with him in heaven.

Alright, so before we can get back, before we can even worry about that, he is speaking specifically to highlight the peaceable followers of Christ. So I asked my guest this question to think about before we met, I want to know before we even get into what a peaceable follower of Christ does, how do you become a peaceable follower of Christ?

I think that's such a good question. I, I do like to take it literally when it says, you know, the peaceful followers of Christ and that have obtained a sufficient hope that, that at least hope, you know what? This is possible. This is possible. And I think sometimes we Unnecessarily exclude ourselves from [00:30:00] pointing to Christ because we think, is it that easy?

You know, like just to have a desire for faith is the beginning. It really, do we really believe that? And so I like to maybe err on the side of generosity, that if you want to be a peaceful follower of Christ, just even that desire, then you are. I like that. That's great to err on the side of generosity. I love that.

And I think, you know, our natural man instinct is to defend, to protect, to be right. And I, um, as I thought about really, how do we become that? It made me think of the classic. later on in the chapter where we're invited to pray with all the energy of our heart to have charity, which I think is is, is saying this isn't easy.

Yeah. If you want this, you have to pray with all the energy of your heart. And I actually had the same thought about being a peaceable follower of Christ. Like it's not easy. And if you want to, if you want your heart to be peaceable, I think you have to pray with all the energy of your heart to be a peaceable follower, because that's not how we're why it's not our natural man instinct to be peacemakers.

Um, because I think we have such need to defend and protect and, and. It's okay that it's hard, but it doesn't mean that we can't give it everything we have to, to be peaceable followers, you know, does anyone come to mind in your life? Someone that's a peaceable follower of Christ. What does that look like in everyday life?

I have a dear friend who is like this and she will, because things have not gone, um, the traditional maybe path of it for whatever reason we think. We have this expectation that you should do, and your children should be like this, and your house should be like this. Like, it's just all been upended. And the details don't matter because that's all of us.

None of us are following, like, a path that, like, like, it's so ridiculous that we do this to each other. But one thing that she says repeatedly is, is that, you know, this life is about loving the most. And, And, and not trying to control and control people and the way she lives her life really illustrates that is that the way that she is inviting people, including me in a very powerful way to come unto Christ is by living in this peace, peaceful state of being where she's not anxious and not worried and not of, of controlling other people.

I'm like, well, they're not doing, my kids aren't doing what I want them to do. And my husband's not doing what I, he's supposed to do. And here's the list. Instead of that, she has really learned. And I've seen her do this. She's learned to become so, um, Grounded in, in her own love and faith that she doesn't emit that need for control or fear, but instead this peace that it, that creates such a light that people are just drawn to her and as a result being around her, it's so much easier to be Christlike and, and to me that it's like she's cracked the code.

Hmm. Ooh, I love that you said grounded. I wrote that next to verse three. Grounded. Like grounded in Christ. That anxiety, like, is it true? And oh, if we just do all these things, is this right? But instead saying, God is good and look at the, and I know, and I trust and I have faith and hope that everything will work out in the end because God loveth all of his children and she lives it.

And that, that's what she's grounded in. That's amazing. Oh, that's so cool. Okay, hold on. It just made me think of the scripture in Colossians about that idea of being grounded. And I'm going to put that next to my, that verse, but I just want to look at this really quickly because it talks about being grounded.

If ye continue in the faith, grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard and which was preached to every creature, which is under heaven. Thank you. Oh, I love that. That's perfect. Right. I'm going to put that Colossians chapter 123 because it just sums up everything we've talked about.

Continue in the faith. But I like grounded and settled. That's hard to do in the world we live in. But isn't that like the call that we're all looking for? And if we who have faith and hope in Christ are not settled in it and are, are, you know, the opposite of anxious, but just absolutely at peace, isn't that, isn't, shouldn't that be the fruit of faith, hope, and charity?

Yeah. Right there. I love that. Oh, that's so cool. What about you, Laurel? Anyone that comes to mind? I think I'm, I'm grateful to know a lot of people who are trying. That's good. Like, I think a lot [00:35:00] of us are really trying to be peaceable followers of Christ. Um, I see it like I see a lot of effort being put in to being peacemakers and being better disciples and I just think it's hard.

I just think it's hard. So the idea of being grounded in peace and not having anxiety or worry is a new way for me to look at what it looks like to be a peaceable follower of Christ. A friend of mine last night used the phrase borrowed worry, like when we are anxious about something or worry about something that.

Maybe it could happen, maybe it won't, that we're just borrowing worry from the future, which I've been thinking a lot about the last 12 hours since I heard that phrase. Yeah, I think a lot of us are trying and we just have to keep trying. Yeah, we just have to keep trying. Oh, I agree. And going back to this idea of being grounded, like if we've decided to be peaceable followers of Christ, for me, I'm thinking grounded and settled.

I think of, well, I'm settling in like, okay, well, this is how it's going to be. I guess I'm just going to, I'm going to be a peaceful follower of Christ. It's gonna be real, real hard. I'm going to settle into it and, and not lose hope. And yeah, but I like what you said, Laura, I'm grateful to know people who are trying, and I think we all are, everyone's just trying.

It's so hard to be a part of this race. We call it a race, the 90 seconds, uh, this trifecta of, of these faith, hope, and charity. And so that is what we need to do is just be peaceful followers of Christ. But that's not all because here's what's interesting is in Moroni. Once you become a peaceable follower of Christ, it's then going to affect the way you walk.

We'll talk about that in the next segment.

Segment 4

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Let's go to Moroni chapter seven, and we're going to read verse four and talk about a walk that's specific to peaceable followers. Lisa, will you read verse four for us, please? And now my brethren, I judge these things of you because of your peaceable walk with the children of men. Hit it. What in the world does it mean to be a peaceable, to have a peaceable walk with the children of men?

I kind of think it's, I mean, I'm not trying to be funny. Funny, but I really did think this like can you walk the walk like yeah, you can talk the talk This is what you believe but like do you live it? Oh, I put that next to that verse. Can you walk the walk? That's good Yeah. And I, I really think, are we reflecting his light in our interactions with others?

Are we, are we drawing people to him because of who we are and how we live? That to me is the essence of Christianity. It's the essence of our baptismal covenants. Like Are people closer to Christ when they interact with us? Are they farther from him? And sometimes I think we do too much preaching, talking the talk, as Lisa said, and not showing, not living, not exhibiting in the way we treat other people.

I absolutely agree. And I think, you know, we all have spiritual gifts and it's said over and over again in the scriptures, you know, and to some. One gift to others yet, but I do think that it's peaceable. Followers of Christ, the focus here is then how are we treating each other? Even though we're so different and we have different gifts and strengths, and it doesn't mean that we all look the same and that we all do things the same.

But that walk though, is a unity that we could all get behind. Cause like Laurel said, it is the essence of the gospel. It's how we're all treated. We live our lives. Are people more inclined and likely to be, to feel a spirit when they're with us or is it the opposite? Are people more or less inclined to be lifted up in their covenants and showing up for other people?

All, all of, all of the things when they're with us or not, how do we treat each other? All of that is, is what living the gospel means. Yeah. Amen to that. Tell me how you'd like to see this done, what it looks like for you personally to walk as peaceable followers of Christ or what you want it to look like, because I know you guys have such strong feelings about this.

Well, I was just thinking about something you said a little earlier, Lisa, relating to God, giving him the benefit of the doubt, which I've never really thought about. And I'm going to be thinking about that for a long time, but I, I really want to do that more in my. Daily life and my interactions with people is to err on the side of, I don't know what happened in their world this morning.

I don't know what they're carrying. You know, I was with a group of girlfriends last night. We hadn't seen each other in a long time. And, you know, Somewhere in from out of town and [00:40:00] just in the catching up, finding out some of the things that people have been carrying. And you think we're all doing that, you know, people we interact with at work or in, in church or somebody who says something, a comment that strikes you as odd or whatever the case may be.

I think we'd go, we'd, We'd get a long way if we would give more benefit of the doubt. And, and sometimes that's being a peaceable follower. I mean, there are times when it's, when you need to stand up for an injustice or you need to stand up for like, that wasn't okay. But there's even a way to do that with.

And give the benefit of the doubt by saying something like, you know, that's not typical of you to respond that way. Or I don't usually hear you say things like that. Like there's a way to correct, but still, still give grace. I think. I agree. And I think that the, uh, the way to be able to understand if someone, It is a peaceable follower, or if they walk, the walk is how you feel when you're with them and then immediately after, right?

Do you feel lifted up? Do you feel, and even if things aren't going well, you know, it, because it's not just about slapping on a smile or, or just trying to sugarcoat everything. And I think that if there was ever a checklist, it's that the verse about, Charity, you know, if we're not jealous, like, what does this look like?

We're not jealous. We're not comparing ourselves to each other. We're, we're just fulfilling our own individual, you know, creative gifts and, and, and trying to add to the goodness of the world, just trying. And, and for me. goes a long way. It's easier to give people the benefit of the doubt. If just, I just think everyone's trying, right?

Like, and it really is a life philosophy. Um, I can, I tend to be very snarky or sarcastic as my natural, like fallback. And I fight about against that a lot because I feel like they can do a lot of damage. And so I always just think that. Uh, that following Christ will help us to be, uh, to not have our, um, and intention just to feel like it's going to cover everything, but to be kind, to go that extra mile, to, um, to, to serve and to represent Christ in, in a literal way of saying, you know, instead of saying, well, you know, the church ought to do something about that, or somebody ought to help that person, or I can be a good person without doing this or that, you know, instead of defending.

Ourselves so much just go about doing good, which is what Christ did. And so, I mean, in the simplest sense, I think it's just people going about doing good, but when we really get to it of just not, you know, being jealous and envying and assuming the worst and, and looking for a fight, because I think so, a lot of times we feel so much anxiety and depression and we, we lash out at other people and really being centered in Christ and peaceable.

It makes it easier for you or makes it more likely for you to be generous with others. But it is practice like Laurel was saying, it is not our, you know, people make him mad and they say dumb things and giving them the benefit of the doubt and the heat of the moment like that. I mean, if we all did it would just make the world such a better place.

Absolutely. Well, and I made a connection with this verse. So in Moroni chapter seven, verse four, it talks about a peaceable walk with the children of men. And both of you beautifully summed up so many of these verses about what that looks like. But I connected it to this idea of while you do this walk, you need something specific to help you make the walk.

And it's verses 16 through 19. And over again, it's repeated what we need to be able to walk peaceably with Christ. And let's read through it. Specifically verse 18, because I really like, well, actually we'll read verse 16 and then verse 18. Laurel, can you read verse 16 and then 18 for us, please? For behold, the spirit of Christ is given to every man that he may know good from evil.

Wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge for everything which inviteth to do good and to persuade to believe in Christ is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ. Wherefore, you may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God. And now, my brethren, seeing that you know the light by which you may judge, which light is the light of Christ, see that ye do not judge wrongfully, for with that same judgment which ye judge, ye shall also be judged.

So as we interact with the children of men, and we're doing this peaceable walk, we need light. We've got to have light with us to help us in this walk. But I was, you know, with, and I asked you this question, what do you think the need for light? It may be possibly infers about our circumstances or surroundings [00:45:00] while we're dealing with the children of men.

I'll, I'll share a thought that I had. Um, the, these scriptures have always resonated with me. I, uh, my patriarchal blessing, um, shared with me that I have been blessed with a gift of discernment and the way it. It told me that is that, um, I won't get the exact language of this, right. But I was told that the spirit would whisper to me.

It, I think I must've been a little hellion in the pre earth life because my patriarchal blessing is just full of warnings. It's just full of warnings. And it, it tells me to be very careful about places I go and people I spend time with. Um, but there's a phrase in there that's that, that it, that Invites me to pay attention to the fact that the spirit will whisper to me on many occasions for things that you should do.

Oh, wow. And so I, from a very young age, I remember kind of knowing if I was in the presence of people that I can trust, or if I'm in the presence of people that I need to be careful of. And I've always been very careful about that because. I'm never gonna get that 100 percent right. I'm human, obviously, but I do think we all have that light inside of us.

And if we pay attention to it, I actually think it's like a muscle and we can get better at paying attention to it. And I'll tell you this. I've, I've never been wrong when I've judged that someone, um, I've I've sometimes been wrong when I thought they were, but that that like feeling of this isn't right.

That isn't true. This doesn't ring. I shouldn't be here. That feeling. Um, I have I've never ignored and and. I don't know how stories would have played out if I had, but I do think we, this is a promise to all of us. I didn't need my patriarchal blessing to tell me that because these verses 16 through 18 are a promise to all of us that we've been given the light of Christ, which allows us to judge what is of God and what is not of God, what people are of God, what people are maybe trying to Pull us from God.

And, and I just think that's so critical. We get very like, Oh, we shouldn't judge. Well, we need to judge what's right and wrong. What's truth and a lie. We have to make those Yeah, that we don't judge wrongly. I mean, right. That is very specific, right? Right. So I just think it's a gift we all have. I, I think I thought I was special that I had this gift and These verses are a reminder we We literally all have that spiritual gift.

We just have to be willing to do the work to make it a stronger gift for us or to get better at it. You know, I love that because that helps in a way that I hadn't thought about before in the sense of when you're listening to the spirit to it, because I read these or have read it to me. It's very like.

An intellectual argument, like you're trying to figure this out. If it invites to do good, if it invites to believe and persuaded to believe in Christ, then it is good. Everything, everything. And to me, it's like very intellectually like clear and it's been a really great guideline. Again, when I've tried to make some decisions when I was in my twenties, my early twenties, I was on a jury, jury duty for this, um, Man, and it was a bunch of very serious crimes like.

The worst. And I remember, and he defended himself and he used the scriptures in the court of law to, about why he shouldn't be tried or what. I mean, he was clearly dealing with some mental illness and manipulating the scriptures in order to make his case for this aggrievous, like, wrongdoing. And it was very clear that he had broken the law, which is what I had to figure out on this jury.

And I took, I take that. Jury duty very seriously. It is like a responsibility of our democracy. Like I was like, okay, I got to do this, but in my mind and in my heart, I thought, how can someone who seems so committed to the gospel do something so, or are committed to Jesus Christ do something so, so horrible.

And it's so clear to me. and also to the laws of the land that he's broken the law, but how can it not be clear to him? And it really, uh, gave me a lot of turmoil. And it was at that, that during that time, when I was thinking about it and praying about it and, and, and wondering what my responsibility in this was that, uh, this scripture by the fruits, you shall know them by the fruits of what they do.

[00:50:00] And then this scripture as well, everything that invited to do good, um, is of God. And so then And that was very clear that the fruits of what he was choosing were so evil and, and what he was trying to do and actually did was inviting to not believe in Christ and to be despaired. And I mean, it was, it was awful.

And so, so this kind of intellectual argument for good and evil is actually, I think really a powerful way that we overlook a lot about how we should, and it is very necessary to judge situations in our lives. Thanks. Excellent answer. Both of you and share. Thank you for sharing your own personal experiences with that because it is an intellectual argument and how awesome to think that the, we have been given the ability then to know right from wrong, that even if you aren't capable of seeing it intellectually, then the spirit will confirm.

So that in your mind, and I love how the doctrine of covenants teaches us this, I will tell you in your mind and in your heart, and when those two things are aligned, then you can Then, you know, Oh yeah, this is good. This is not good. So this is what we're gonna do then in the next segment.

Segment 5

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Okay so we just got done talking about a peaceable walk with light, but now this is pretty cool because it can help us find some good things. Let's go to Moroni Chapter 7, verse 19. And Lisa, can you read that verse for us, please?

Wherefore I beseech of you, brethren, that ye should search diligently in the light of Christ that ye may know good from evil. And if you will lay hold of upon every good thing and condemn it, not ye certainly will be a child of Christ. Amen. Thank you. So I want to know when more when Mormon use that phrase, good thing, and he's going to use it often.

What do you think he's referring to? What are we talking about to lay hold upon every good thing? I think, uh, we can get tripped up on this because, um, it certainly can't be that we're going to lay hold on every good thing that we want. Yeah, like it can't be that point. Um, but I do think it's every good thing That we need in order to become closer to him.

And there's a lot of good things out there that are just not necessarily meant to be ours. Um, and this isn't a, you know, it's not some kind of a. A contest or a game to figure out how to lay hold on the good thing that you want. But I, I do believe he will help us lay hold upon every good thing that we need.

And for me, that's an important qualifier that keeps me from either going crazy or feeling sorry for myself or whatever. Like what, what's an example of a good thing? Well, um, I, I mean, To get serious about it, I spent a lot of my years pleading with the Lord for the privilege of motherhood. And surely that is a good thing.

And I wanted a house full. Um, and the Lord and I wrestled with that. Until I realized, okay, Laurel, do you believe that if this was needful for you to become closer to him, would he deny that of you? Of course he wouldn't. Now, motherhood for me, I'm fortunate that it's come in other ways. I, I am a step mom.

Because of that, I have grandchildren. I'm an aunt with nieces and nephews, but it's not you. Yeah, you can't tell a woman like me that that's the same. But I have come to realize that he helped me lay hold on this very good thing that was needful, even though the very good thing that I so desired, um, wasn't granted to me.

And so I just, you know, I think if we can look at life that way, even in the big gaps, even in the big disappointments, even in the big things that we are lacking, that we desperately want, whether that's a healthy marriage or the privilege of motherhood or good health, or I mean, the list goes on and on.

There are so many people worthy. Of quote, every good thing, and they're not going to receive it. And so we have to trust that it's truly every good thing that is needful. And I just think, you know, gold plates, they just left out a word in all the engraving. So it just says, melee hold on every good thing.

I like how you added that, but I have, I have to read that verse. With that is needful because otherwise that concept caused me a lot of angst in a lot of my adult years where I would say, but God, this is good. Why are you denying this? This is good. And it took me a long [00:55:00] time to realize. Yes, it's good and not needful.

Well, that's beautiful and heartbreaking. I like the phrase lay hold of it, too. I think that sometimes we can let our own good wants and desires make us blind to the good things around us. And so that I do the laying hold of that. Lay hold of every good thing. Stop judging all the good. Well, which one's best?

Which one do I want? I choose, you know, lay hold of every good thing, like gather the good. And I'm a real proponent of, of, of your mind frame and you find what you're looking for. And I, and I feel like this is a, a scripture saying you grab those good things that are there. And a lot of them will be surprising.

You know, I, I'm living a life where, um, I'm saying and doing things and like I tell my friends all the time, I'm having new experiences. I never thought I'd be having, and that is very, very true. And some of them are horrible experiences and some of them are very good. So you know, laying hold of every good thing, uh, feels like you're doing something too.

I feel like that there's something in the enduring, in the waiting, in the, in the, the creating your, your, your life that. That's encouraging to me to lay hold of the good things and will more good things happen. Will that one really great thing that you're really helping for happen? Maybe, maybe not. You know, it, it, it, there's not a formula for everyone.

And so laying hold, I, I think is, is important. Is, uh, of that and condemn it not to, I think is the other one. It's like a worry of like, well, I know I have that. Or we hear something new in the, in, in, in the restored gospel, right? A change of policy, a change of, I don't know, uh, focus, whatever it is. Um, And it may be a good thing, but we may be like, well, is it, you know, and we're so quick to condemn when it's meant as a gift and a blessing, uh, I think that that can also change the way that we approach, uh, uh, new and exciting experiences and opportunities to be different.

Yes. I don't know. Tell me what you think about this. Cause as you both were talking in my mind, I was imagining, I love this idea of what is needful and laying hold. And I pictured one of those, um, if you see him at the fairs or whatever you get in, it's one of those money machines where you get in, they close the door and money's blowing up all over you and you're able to They're so anxious.

Yeah, you're like Heavenly Father's like, grab as much as you can as much as you can. And you're so excited. And you're really filling your arms to the bounty of all of this. You didn't get all of the dollar bills or 100 bills, but you got so much you come walking out, your arms are full. You're so pleased with what you got.

And then your friend goes in and gets the same experience. And you're like, Oh, While you love what you got and then all of a sudden you look over at what your friend got and then you're like, well, wait a minute, because I love how you said Lisa, like we don't get to judge what's good thing and what's not like one thing's good for her and one thing's good for that person, but don't condemn what you ended up getting because I feel like the Lord's so bounteous in his goodness.

He's like, I'm going to give you so much. You won't even have room to hold it all and just be like, lay hold of what I'm giving you. The other thing about that analogy, though, is that when you grab on for something else, sometimes you're letting go of the thing you do have in it. And when Lisa said, lay hold, like, hold on to the goods you do have.

I've never thought about that phrase that way, that, that. We can get distracted by by paying attention to what we don't have and miss the good things we have been given and that machine that you're referencing is a great example of like you grab something but you had to open your hand to grab it and you had something already in your hand.

But I don't want to underestimate how difficult this is to do though, you know, for sure. And I still fall into this, uh, you know, grief is a, is a fickle friend now. And, and I will say, you know, I had this wonderful marriage and, and, And we've been through so much together and he was, he was doing good and this is what I want, right?

Like this partnership with my late husband, which I won't have because he is deceased. Like, it's very, like, it's very clear done. And I want that good thing, right? Um, If I am not laying hold of all the other good things in my life, it is really, really hard. It is really easy for me to fall back into this like pit of despair and, and, and people who've dealt with grief.

No, you know what I'm talking about? You know, that's the free slope of what it is. And again, it's not a mind frame thing. It's not just cheer up and look on the bright side. It's not, it is you lay hold on the good, you know, and as I lean into good things, like, I mean, my kids are so great. I have five of the most.

Crazy, funny. And I, when I am focused on, on that, um, [01:00:00] that's great. Um, you know, I have a creative job that I love and that like I could list and list and list other great things in my life and it's not even great things, but it's also like goodness, right? Like goodness of people, reasons to hope for Christ, reasons to get out of bed, reasons to be happy to be alive.

I mean, it's, it's not just the big things, it's every at holding onto that. And so. Maybe I take that scripture a little bit too literally, but it was able to pull me out of a dark time more than once. I love it. I don't think it's too literal at all. And how wonderful in this whole example, in Mormons talking, because he asked the question about in verse 20, how is it possible that you can lay hold upon every good thing or every good thing you've been given?

And we just love, here it is, verse 21, Lisa, read that for us. And now I come to that faith of which I said I would speak, and I will tell you the way whereby you may lay hold on every good thing. I mean, right there, it's faith. And it just goes back to that endurance of faith that we learned from the very beginning from Laurel.

I think it's so profound when you're holding your arm full of what you got. Not necessarily maybe what you wanted, um, but what I love how you said that, Lisa, like here I am when I, when I lose focus of all the good things I am laying hold of and I let go, like Laurel said in the machine, you, you, that's when you lose your faith and so faith is what allows us to lay hold.

In fact, go to verse 25. We'll just read that. Laurel, will you read verse 25 for us? Wherefore, by the ministering of angels and by every word which proceedeth forth out of the mouth of God, men began to exercise faith in Christ, and thus, by faith, they did lay hold upon every good thing, and thus it was until the coming of Christ.

Thank you. And I go back to your situation, Laurel. Thus, by faith, they did lay hold upon every good thing, and so the good thing that you do have, You've laid hold onto that and I, your whole testimony about your faith in the Father and your faith in God because you didn't necessarily get what you wanted, which is a very good thing.

But you did it say that what you did have was also a really good thing and I have watched your faith in that and I, I applaud it. And same with Lisa. You both have examples of you didn't get what you wanted, which was a really good thing. But tell me how that then your faith steps in. What does that do?

Faith and hope. How to faith and hope because he'll continue to say, and not only is it faith, but it's also hope in verse 42 where for if a man have faith, he must needs have hope for without faith. There cannot be any hope. Tell me about how those connect to laying hold on every good thing. Oh, I'll tell you because.

I, uh, a few months after Christopher passed away and I, and, and my kids were doing okay and everything sort of was calm or I found myself in a place with no hope. And I had never really ever experienced that before in my whole life. Uh, it's not my nature, it's not my disposition, but I was like, Oh wow.

And I was very at peace with, this is God's will. Uh, and I could not think of a good reason or an ultimate faith or a benefit of why my husband had to die, why my children had to go through this and lose their father at such horrible ages. I could not come up with any scenario that would make it okay.

You know, you just, your brain wants to go to everything and no, nothing that I could think of made sense and would calm me and it, and it was really, uh, um, Again, like a hard thing. Like I just thought, well, who cares? Like, really, like who cares about anything? Like, do I need to get up at an ad about today?

I mean, sure. I guess for my kids, but it doesn't matter. Nothing matters. Everything's just going to happen anyway. Like how it is. Nothing we do matters. I mean, I really was. Um, and what got me out of that having no hope was going back to faith and I would go back and I would think, Okay, if you can't come up with a reason, does that mean a reason doesn't exist?

What, you know, do you know? You know, totally wrong. And I came back to God is good. God loves me. God had never left me in this. And it was so clear to me. And I'd seen so many miracles in my mind through the White Ghost was coming back to remember all the miracles and all the love so that like, I just, I just know I knew then more than I did before my husband knew that like, God is good.

God is ultimately good and never left me. And so I'm like wrestling with these things, but out of faith was hope was born. And you talk about the order of faith, hope, and charity, and it totally changes everything. And I always like, yeah, yeah, they're all important. Know that order. There is something divine in that [01:05:00] order because I went back to faith and my faith was so solid and I'd like, Oh yeah, I know.

Yeah. God is real. Yeah. Like in a way that I hadn't. I hadn't before. And so because of that, I could allow hope to break through because I was able to acknowledge if God is good and all knowing and all powerful, then there must be something that he knows that I don't. And just allowing that I could not Um, come up with any possible scenario that would make this quote unquote worth it.

Doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It means that I, that God's ways are mysterious, but God is all loving and all knowing and all powerful and he knows better and I will trust in him because I have faith in him. And then hope was born out of that. And now my hope has grown greater and greater and greater because I've learned more and more about the nature of God and giving God the benefit of the doubt and, and allowing for that has allowed me to see things in ways that I hadn't.

been able to see it before. And that is the gift of the spirit. Absolutely. So now my hope is founded in the testimony of Jesus Christ. And that's everything. And then of course, as my help grows, what does it turn me to? It's, Oh, we're sharing this. This is, this is, this is charity. This changes the whole purpose of my life.

Amen. Yeah. That's all I can say after that, Lisa, thank you so much. I wrote so many notes. Wow. Okay. So then in the next segment, we're going to do it. We're gonna talk about charity, our last horse in this winning trifecta. We'll do that next.

Segment 6

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All right. Let's connect it to charity. Let's go to Moroni chapter seven, verses 44 through 48. And just bracket those off and you can just write a sermon on charity and you can connect it to also Moroni chapter eight, verse 17. Now we're not really going into Moroni eight cause we did that when we talked about the administrative details of the church two episodes ago.

So you all know that, which is why we didn't get into eight. So we just covered mostly seven and nine, but we get to talk about charity. Okay. My charity, here we go. We have already read verse 45. Let's just get into a couple of more really good verses. Let's do 46 through 48. And we'll each take a verse.

We'll go Lisa, Laurel, and then me, and then we're going to talk about charity. Go ahead, Lisa. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, if ye have not charity, ye are nothing. For charity never faileth. Wherefore, cleave unto charity, which is the greatest of all, for all things must fail. Okay. Can we pause right there? I love how you said the word nothing.

For ye are nothing. Oh, you read scripture so well. That is so good. Okay. Verse 47. Sorry, Laurel, go ahead. But charity is the pure love of Christ, and it endureth forever, and whoso is found possessed of it at the last day, it shall be well with him. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with his love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ, that ye may become the sons of God, that when he shall appear, we shall be like him.

For we shall see him as he is, that we may have this hope that we may be purified, even as he is pure. Amen. Talk to me. What is charity?

It's everything. If you don't have it and you're nothing, then if you have it, you're everything. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. It's all thing. You'll, you'll be like him when you see him. It won't be a surprise because you will be like him. Oh, I like that. I just think that that's it. I love that. Well, you shall be like him for, we'll see him as he is.

And it always reminds me of like what Elder Bednar repeats over and over again. And also Jacob for, um, uh, like to see things as they really are. That's something that I find myself praying for more and more, like, help me to really discern, to see things, how they really are, like what really matters, the truth extracted from something that looks maybe one way, but isn't.

And that's what it reminded me of when I heard. Like we, when I read, we shall see him as he is. A lot of people will tell you what Christ is like and what Christ would do and what he wouldn't do and what he did, you know, we've, we've got a world full of that. But how is he really, how do you really, really know?

And I think charity is the way that we really come to know him because we are practicing to be like him. Yeah. Ooh, that's good. I was struck by the word charity in Hebrew. Of course, you know, I'm going to look it up because I love Hebrew. And listen to this. This is pretty amazing to me is the word for charity in Hebrew is Zedekah.

Now it comes from the word Zedek, where we get Melchizedek from. So Melchizedek is two Hebrew words. Melchizedek is king and Zedek is righteousness. Or charity. So [01:10:00] talk about the Melchizedek priesthood. What if it was the priesthood of charity? Because it, it is defined as the priesthood of righteousness.

And then you read in Hebrews that Melchizedek, the king, was a symbol of Jesus Christ. So it makes far more sense for me to have the Melchizedek priesthood be the priesthood of charity. And then you connect it to these things and everything that it is. And when you think about what the ordinances of the Melchizedek priesthood do for us, I would hope it helps remind me on Sunday as I'm taking the priesthood.

And as I'm going to the temple, especially in verse 45, To suffereth, long to envy not to not be puffed up. In fact, if you wanna just mark those inverse 45. I like the definition of these and I put them in our notes for us, but I think it's important to really break it down. Like suffereth long means to endure trials patiently envy.

If not means it's not jealous of others, not puffed up is humble. Seeketh not her own. It means it puts God and the needs of others before self, not easily provoked, is not angered easily. And then believe with all things is accepts all truth. And so now we've kind of reframed charity right there for all of us in our everyday lives.

I like this quote from Elder Holland. We're going to read this quote and I'd love to know your thoughts on it. Life has its share of fears and failures. Sometimes things fall short. Sometimes people fail us or economies or businesses or governments fail us. But one thing in time or eternity does not fail us.

The pure love of Christ. Have you had a time in your life where charity did not fail you?

I'll share, um, maybe the cop out answer, but we'll be the judge of that. Yeah, I think I don't have, I, I couldn't give you an example of when my ability to practice charity didn't fail. I, this is. Something I hope to just work on better throughout my life, but I'll tell you what has never failed, and that is the pure love of Christ, the love of God that God has for, um, I attended a, a Christian women's conference once I was all by myself in Albany, New York, of all places, I was in an arena with 6, 000 other women, and it was at a time in my life where I had felt forgotten by heaven.

But a female pastor got on stage and she said, you have never lived one unloved moment. And I felt it to the core of my soul. And I knew it was true. And I had known it nearly all of my life up to that point, but had just disconnected for a minute. And I've certainly known it since. I think a lot about when I, when people talk about charity now, or, you know, the Relief Society theme of charity never faileth, I, I immediately equate it to God's love for me.

And I think for me, it's true to say, I don't know. There's so much. I don't know so much. But when all is said and done, I do know that the pure love of Christ, the love taught here in these marvelous scriptures. It's, it's the love that I know heaven has for me and the love that heaven has for all of us.

And that never fails. It's astounding to me, but it might be the only perfect love that exists. It doesn't, which is why it's our aspiration to achieve that kind of love, a fraction of that kind of love in some semblance of some of our relationships. But I truly believe if we all sit back, we can say that, Oh, I know.

What that love is. I know what that love feels like because I have felt that love extended to me from heaven. And that is in this world of chaos and unknowns and uncertainty. I can absolutely say that is the thing. I know that I am a beloved. Treasured daughter of [01:15:00] heavenly parents. And sometimes that's all you can know, but my goodness, if you know that everything else will take care of itself, you know, so beautiful, so beautiful, Laurel and the spirit so strong as you shared that those truths.

Thank you. I feel that. that this is the first fundamental truth and of the, of the universe, right? That God so loved the world, right? Like that we love him because he loved us first. I mean, this is the. To me, the very beginning of the creation story, to me, is that God loves us and, and, and like for me, where, you know, hope is born out of faith and that foundation of faith, you know, I had an experience when I was 12 years old, it was a very, like, I just am always thinking, and you know, I like to say that I had my first real existential crisis at 12 and I'm not even really kidding.

Like when I really super into science fiction and I just saw myself in this vast, ever growing universe on a speck of a dust and the speck of a dust on it, you know, and I just like sort of had this unwarying, like, what does this all mean? What are we all doing floating around on this rock? Like, listen, it was a lot.

And, and I, I'm being very sincere about that. This was what I was like at 12. This is how I still am. It's gotten worse, but God loves me. And I remember praying that, that summer that I was 12 and thinking I've got a lot of, you know, important decisions to make about my life. And I got out, like, I got a no and, and I tease.

But. It was the realist thing to me and that summer after months of praying, I, I had an experience where I felt this pure love of Christ and I'll tell you, you know, I'm not 12 anymore and I've moved through many, many decades and probably like four different lives to be quite honest, where my life and, uh, How I'm living is totally different and through it all, I've been able to take, I want to say take for granted, but just always assume that love of God, of our heavenly parents and of Christ, and it has made all of the difference in my life.

So when I read something like this, that you shall be like him, we'll see him as he is, that you have this, this hope that purified as he is pure, these things that seem so. Impossible in the vastness of the universe seems very personal and very real to me and how grateful I am, honestly, like that the Lord showed me that in such a way that I've been able to hold on to it through everything that I have have throughout different phases of my life, because, um, It has absolutely changed the focus of everything.

And that to me is like, Oh, that is charity. And when you say charity never faileth, I go, amen, because they didn't fail. Then, then, then, then, and I can look back in my life in the sequence of events and still crises, crises. Coming and going, but always being able to have that foundation. That is the one thing I've been able to count on.

Wow. I went back to verse 45 as the two of you were talking, because you both just taught me such a profound truth. In verse 45, if charity is the pure love of Christ, And we will see him, we will recognize him because he has loved us with charity. Then I think right here and charity is, he suffereth long with me and he is kind and he envieth not me and he's not puffed up with me and he seeketh not his own but mine.

But then I go down here and he rejoiceth in truth and he beareth all things and he believeth in me and hopes in me and endures with me. And then I'm like, Oh yeah, charity really is. It's everything. And I think that when we see him, we'll, we'll feel that like, Oh, he loved me so much. He loved me. Verse four, he loves me.

Verse 45 loves me. And I, I like to think that that is exactly my relationship, where it really is. Charity is everything. Like you just said, Lisa, it is everything and he believes in me and loves me and endures with me for sure. And um, I can't wait to see him because when he, when he, I love that when he shall appear, we shall be like him.

We shall see him as he is. And oh yeah, you liked me. You loved me. You always loved me, Laurel. As you said, there hasn't been a moment in my life where I haven't been loved or felt that charity from him. So thank you. Thank you to both of you. That's the end of our discussion. Wow. Thank you. What a great treat to be with you both.

So spirit. Oh, okay. So gather your thoughts and just share really quickly everything we discussed for the last, you know, long time. What's your takeaway? What's something that stood out to you that you'll remember? [01:20:00] I am going to be more consciously thinking about giving God the benefit of the doubt. I've, I've never thought about that, Lisa, when you said that, and I need to trust that he kept his promises before he'll keep his promises now.

And he's never distant and give him the benefit of the doubt that he's working in ways I don't. I don't always see. I loved that. So thank you for sharing that. I did too. I'm going to take away this idea that God is so good and loves me that I, I want it to give me more confidence as I move forward. And, and, you know, I, I shared right at the beginning that I'm in this, this, Time of flux and I'm looking at becoming an empty nester.

I'm single. I, um, have an ever changing career and focus and, and friends and every, every aspect of my life is changing, but I can have more confidence in moving forward in a purpose, not on hanging on of like what's going to happen next, but hanging on to that pure love of Christ and charity is my purpose.

Absolutely. Thank you. Um, I am taking away our whole lay hold upon every needful, every good thing that is needful for me. That whole discussion was so empowering and enlightening, and I appreciated what both of you brought to the table for that discussion and how it evolved. So the spirit was so strong today.

I just felt it many times. So thank you, women. I love you both. You're such good friends. I love you guys. Love you both. Oh, okay. What was your takeaway? Oh my gosh. That discussion was so, so good. Go join our group on Facebook or follow us on Instagram to share what you learned. And what really struck you this whole episode?

This discussion was great. I love those women. Oh my gosh. So good. Okay. Then at the end of the week on a Saturday, we usually post a question that has to do with this specific lesson. So comment on the post that relates to it and share your thoughts. You can get to both our Facebook and Instagram by going to the show notes for this episode at LDS living.

com slash Sunday on Monday. And it's not a bad idea to go there anyway, because it's where we have links to all the references and a transcript of this whole discussion. So go check it out. The Sunday on Monday study group is a desert bookshelf plus original brought to you by LDS living. It's written and hosted by me, Tammy Uzelac Hall.

And today our fabulous study group participants were Lisa Valentine Clark and Laurel Christensen day. And you can find more information about my friends at LDS living. com slash Sunday on Monday. Our podcast is produced by Cole Wissinger and me. It is edited and mixed by Cole Wissinger and our executive producer is Erin Hallstrom.

Thanks for being here. We'll see you next week. And please remember there has never been a single solitary time that God didn't love you because you are God's favorite.