The following transcript is intended to aid in your study. However, while we try to go through the transcript, our transcripts are primarily computer-generated and often contain errors. Please forgive the transcripts’ imperfections.

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[00:00:00] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Alma chapter 32 through 35 are the quintessential chapters on faith in the book of Mormon. And however you have studied this topic before, I dare say you have never done it quite like we are going to do it today. My guest has graciously gifted us her testimony of faith to some of my favorite songs that she has written.

And so I invite you to sit back, Or exercise or drive as you listen to and study this incredible soundtrack of faith. Welcome to the sundown Monday study group, a desert bookshelf plus original brought to you by LDS living where we take the come follow me lesson for the week. And we really dig into the scriptures together.

I'm your host, Tammy Uzelac Hall. Now, if you're new to our study group, please follow the link in our description, and it's going to explain how you can best use this podcast to enhance your come follow me study. Just like my friend, Mandy Nelson and her mom, Becky Adams. Hello ladies. Okay. Now here's the best thing about this study group.

It's each week. We're usually joined by two of my friends and sometimes it's just one. And this week I have one friend and I am so excited because I've known her for years and I am a huge fan of her music and she has agreed to come on and share her songs with us. So this is kind of fun because if you are driving or out walking or exercising, you're going to love this because it's going to give you a whole soundtrack. To your day. I'm thrilled to introduce you to Cherie Call. Hello, friend.

[00:01:27] Cherie Call: Hi, Tammy. I'm so excited to be here. Um, I am so excited to see you again and talk. We've known each other since the single ward days. You did the flowers for my wedding. I even wrote part of a song at your house.

[00:01:42] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Oh my gosh. Yes. I forgot I did your wedding flowers. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Well, my favorite is that I was made your, I was your visiting teacher. And I never visited you. I don't think.

[00:01:53] Cherie Call: Oh, it's okay. I don't even think that's true. I'm sure you visited me.

[00:01:59] Tammy Uzelac Hall: We were friends, but I don't think I ever brought you a lesson.

[00:02:02] Cherie Call: Well and that's just fine.

[00:02:04] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Oh, we were in the thick of it with being single and dating and crushes and heartbreak and just all the things in the singles ward. It's true. Oh yeah. Listen, I have so many memories with this friend of mine. And when I was thinking about this whole lesson on faith, I thought we, we have talked like it is quintessential chapters on faith, planting the seed, having faith, what it all looks like. But your name just kept popping into my head. And as I have looked over a lot of your songs, they are really rooted in faith. So much of your lyrics comes from experiences that involve your, your faith, your struggles, your relationship with a loving, kind, heavenly father. And I, that's what I, and to me, you're a brilliant lyricist. You just tell stories beautifully through your songs. It's a gift.

[00:02:55] Cherie Call: Well, I really appreciate that. I do think I write a lot of songs, um, really for the things that I need to hear. And it really is wonderful to know that it is helpful to others and that it brings happiness to other people too. How long have you been writing and singing? Um, since I was really young, I started writing songs.

I've been singing ever since I can remember, but I started writing songs when I was about 12. 12. It's just something I've always loved.

[00:03:24] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Okay. So where can anyone find your music? Because after today, I think people are going to want to download some of your songs, especially the ones that we're including because they're so awesome.

So tell us where we can go.

[00:03:34] Cherie Call: Well, I'm pretty sure you can find them on any of the usual streaming sites like Pandora and Spotify and all those Apple music. You can also hear a lot of my music if you go to my website, Cheriecall. com. I also. occasionally write blogs on there. I'm not like, you know, super on top of that on a weekly basis or anything.

[00:03:59] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Oh, good. Do you have kids and a husband and life? Yeah, sure.

[00:04:02] Cherie Call: But you could find a lot of cool stuff on there for sure. If you go to cheriecall. com.

[00:04:06] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Do you still sell CDs?

[00:04:08] Cherie Call: I, if people want them, I have them. I think I sell them for like two dollars a piece. I still have a little corner of my garage that has a few boxes.

[00:04:17] Tammy Uzelac Hall: So I think that's awesome. I have the full collection. Just FYI. My kids love your songs. In fact, one of your songs that we're going to play later today is my husband's absolute favorite. And so every time your song comes on on the church, well out here in Utah on FM 100 on Sundays, there's this whole sounds of Sunday and your song comes up and Jim will be like, that's my favorite. That's Cherie Call well, okay. If you want to know more about my guest, you can go to our show notes, which are found at LDS living. com slash Sunday on Monday and see her picture and read her bio. And we'll even put links to maybe where you can find some of her songs. And I, this is going to be such a fun discussion.

So we are going to study faith. And through the voice of Cherie call, but you're still going to need your scriptures. So grab them and grab something to mark your scriptures with. And let's dig into Alma chapters 32 through 35. Okay, Cherie, tell me, what did the Holy ghost teach you as you studied these four chapters?

[00:05:10] Cherie Call: You know, I always love to know the context of, you know, why, why is Alma talking to these people about this specific theme? And, um, Sometimes I don't look into it, and the scriptures just standing alone are really useful, which, this is definitely one of those, um, sections that it would be that way. You could pick any scripture and cross stitch it, you know?

[00:05:36] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Totally. Vinal letter it.

[00:05:38] Cherie Call: I really feel like the Holy Ghost, um, Told me to just peek back one chapter and realize why these people were being taught this by Alma and, um, it was really meaningful to me because these are people who he's going and visiting people who felt like there wasn't a place for them in, in the church as it, as it was locally to them, um, you had the people who were getting up on, Towers thanking God that they're better than everybody else.

And, um, then these are the people who didn't wear the same clothes. They didn't think all of the same things. And so they just figured that there must not be a place for them. And this is Alma coming in and kind of teaching them what really is important. I guess the reason why it hits me is because I have felt I've been in these Sunday School Relief Society classes where the teacher has said like, well, it's a good thing that we're not like those stupid people, you know, who believe this or they're going to vote for this person, you know, or whatever.

And I'm like, Ooh, maybe I don't, maybe I don't belong here. You know, I think there are a lot of people who find that they start feeling like they don't belong. And what I love is that Heavenly Father still goes out and finds those people. Like, he finds a way to reach those people, he goes after them, and he tells them the things that they need to hear.

So, um, all of that, the framing of that, the context of that as I read these scriptures was really pretty sweet to me. Um, starting over again and saying, no, no, let's, Let's talk about faith and if it's hard for you to believe, I'll break it down and make it easier for you. And then you can realize that there is a place for you.

So I loved that a lot.

[00:07:15] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Well, I love that a lot. And as you were saying that, that just, I felt the spirit so strong because I think a lot of us Have felt that way in our life that we just maybe don't belong. We're not playing by the same rules or we don't fit that mold. And I, I think it's beautiful how you said the first thing he's gonna teach them then is faith.

The most simple of all things or so it would seem, but I like how you said he's gonna break it down so that we all can understand what it is, how it works, and that everybody can have it. So thank you Cherie. I really appreciate that. So let's do this in the next segment then. Let's just jump into this idea and teachings about.

What faith is or what it isn't. And we'll do that in the next segment.

Segment 2

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[00:08:06] Tammy Uzelac Hall: So like Cherie beautifully taught us the background leading up to Alma chapter 32, we have these powerful teachings on faith. Now, what I thought was so interesting is that he also uses the past example of Korihor because he's teaching what faith is not in Alma chapter 32. Let's just look at verses 17 and 18.

[00:08:24] Cherie Call: There are many who do say, if that will show unto us a sign from heaven, then we shall know of a surety. Then we shall believe. Now, I ask, is this faith? Behold, I say unto you, nay, for if a man knoweth a thing, he hath no cause to believe, for he knoweth it.

[00:08:41] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Thank you. Cause that is exactly what Korihor asked for. And we saw his demise through that experience. So now Alma's going to say, so let me tell you what faith is. Let's go to verse 21 and we'll cross reference that to verse 26. And then I will read 21 and 26. It says, and now, as I said, concerning faith, faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things.

Therefore, if you have faith, he hope for things which are not seen, which are true. And then to verse 26, now, as I said, concerning faith, that it was not to have a perfect knowledge. Even so it is with my words, you cannot know of their surety at first unto perfection any more than faith is a perfect knowledge.

That leads us to this song because you wrote a really great song about this idea of faith and where it first starts. And I want you to introduce us to the name of your song and tell us the story about how you wrote this.

[00:09:33] Cherie Call: This song is called Where Faith Lives, and it's one of the first songs that I wrote as a, like a, well, as a faith based song, I had a challenge from a friend to write some religious music and I was worried.

I didn't want the songs to be cliche. Um, I hope that I would be a good enough songwriter to write about these important things in it. In a way that would, um, be meaningful. But, but, um, but faith seemed like it was the, it was step one. It was the first, it really was the first thing that you have to, um, to have.

And so I started to think about all the things that faith is. And I thought about examples in my own life, and I'm sure we're going to talk more about this in the other segments, but to me, so much of faith. is about remembering. Remembering the times that God has been there for you, when you start to doubt or to have despair, if you can remember those times when he already did things for you, um, that helps to build on that faith.

And so, the song lists different times, hopefully helping people to remind, um, remind themselves of, of their own examples of times that God has been there for them. And there's also some examples from the scriptures about when God has been there for other people. So, um, just kind of this little reassuring thing, helping people know and really helping me know, cause I, I start out, what would I need to hear?

You know, what, what is faith and how can I have it in my life? So I wrote this song called where faith lives.

[00:11:07] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Well, I will tell you this, Cherie, as that song started playing and you said, it lives in the fiery furnace and in the lion's den, I went back to verse 21 because it had the word hope. I can only imagine there was so much hope that those young boys were hoping. That it would turn out well, or that Daniel was hoping he wouldn't get eaten.

And I think of our own lives, how many times we just hope, hope, hope. And that is for me where my faith has lived in that hope, like, Oh, I don't know how this is going to work out, but I hope it does really do.

[00:11:39] Cherie Call: Yeah. Isn't that the hardest thing? I, I don't feel like, and I know it's different for everyone, but I don't feel like I've ever had trouble believing in God.

But I have a lot of trouble believing in God. I've never had trouble believing that God can do anything, but I have had a lot of trouble sometimes wondering if he'll do those things for me. So, I think that hope is so much of, you know, realizing he really does know you and he sees a bigger picture. and the hope that you have that he does see you and, and wants to help you.

I don't know. It's a constant thing in my life that I'm trying to be better at realizing and remembering.

[00:12:21] Tammy Uzelac Hall: I think a lot of us are in that same camp. Absolutely. And that's where faith lives. That's what I love about your song. I mean, every example, every one of us are struggling like, Oh, I don't know. I don't know.

I mean, that's, that's the beauty. I think of faith. And one of the messages that I've noticed the most in the book of Alma is how much faith is required to believe that the words are true, that what the Lord says is really going to happen. And that, that's a scary place. And you even sung about the word fear.

And I wrote that in my scriptures next to the word hope, hope versus fear, because that for me, that is Satan's greatest tool is the immediate fearfulness. What if it doesn't work? Because I do believe it will, but then there's that little like, but what if it doesn't, but what, and then I get into that headspace and I wish I could stay in the, but it probably will work.

I can't even say it. I'm like, it might work. Ah,

[00:13:15] Cherie Call: yeah. I, and I just think of all these other scripture examples. First John 4, 18, perfect love casts out fear. Um, that's just the, really the kind of the, um, it's the compass of my life. When I come, when I run into, um, fears and worries about my children and the things that they're going through that I can't fix all by myself, any of the things, concerns I have about anyone I love or my own life, Um, when it's hard for me see a way forward, when I think about loving people and knowing that God is a loving God, um, it helps me to have faith.

When I think about the brother of Jared, when he collected those stones and he just had faith and hope that these rocks that, um, you know, his best efforts that were just rocks that God would touch those and, and light them up and make them into something better. Um, I, I definitely feel like that is, that's all kind of doing whatever faith we can come up with and God will make up the difference and help us with all those things.

[00:14:23] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Oh, I love that you brought up the brother of Jared experience. We've talked about that often on our podcast because I've been studying Hebrew Cherie for the last eight years. And that story, it talks about how the barges he built were after the manor of Noah. And it's interesting because a lot of scholars believe, well, maybe he took some time to think what did Noah do for light in his Ark.

And if you go to the book of Genesis and you read in chapter six, the exact instructions for how Noah is going to get light, it says for him to put a window, which is interesting because in the brother of Jared, it said you can't have a window. It was, yeah. So here's Noah saying it should be a window, but in Hebrew, the actual translation is not the word window.

It's the word Zohar. And if you look down in the footnote of the LDS scriptures for that word window, the footnote says, the word is Zohar. Some rabbis believed it was a precious stone that shone in the ark. Oh, cool. Now I'm thinking back to the brother, Jared, and it's just what you said, because I wonder if the brother Jared was like, well, it worked for Noah, but what if it doesn't work for me?

Like we hear all these great scripture stories because that's what it would have been to the brother Jared, a really great scripture story. And I just wonder if that was where, and then maybe did fear come in and go, it might not work for you though. I don't know. I just think I'm so grateful you brought up that example because we do have to battle with that faith versus fear, that hope versus fear.

So that is a great example of that.

[00:15:46] Cherie Call: I feel like he knew that God could do it, but it was that thing of Well, I hope it doesn't make him mad if I ask him to do it for me because I, you know, in that script, I feel like in that story, he's like, don't get mad, but here are these stones.

[00:16:00] Tammy Uzelac Hall: You're totally right. I know you've done it for others, but you probably, I don't know where we stand. I mean, every, all of the questions.

[00:16:07] Cherie Call: I feel like that when I pray all the time. Don't get mad. If, if I ask this, I know that you can, but this, I really hope you can do this for me.

[00:16:14] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Oh, that's perfectly put. That is awesome. Okay, well then let's do this then in the next segment, like you had said earlier, Alma then breaks down in such beautiful language, the idea of faith.

And so we're going to study his words on faith next.

Segment 3

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[00:16:39] Tammy Uzelac Hall: All right, let's 32 and we are going to just mark up. How Alma breaks this down. And it seems so simple. And I had so much fun reading it this time because I read it with different, a different lens. So we're going to start in verse 27 and he's going to bring this idea up to us. So here we go. Cherie, we read verse 27 for us.

[00:17:00] Cherie Call: Sure. But behold, if he will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words and exercise a particle faith. Yay. Even if you can do no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you even until you believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.

[00:17:21] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Okay. So we're going to start with a desire, just a desire.

And I, for me, broke this down into faith in a certain aspect of the gospel. There are just some things that I do believe, but then there's some things I struggle with. So for me, this was personal. I desire to know this one thing is true. And now Cherie, talk to me about how he breaks it down and what stood out to you about the simplicity of the breakdown.

[00:17:47] Cherie Call: Um, well, I love that first you have to want to believe, um, if you don't want to, it just isn't going to work. Like very rarely is God just going to punch you in the face with these things, you know, you have to be looking for it. Um, from a songwriting standpoint, I think about in, In one of my first songwriting classes that I took at BYU, my wonderful professor, Ron Simpson, taught us to look at the world as a songwriter.

And once I started doing that, I saw ideas everywhere. So, much in the same way, if I want to find answers, And I have a desire to believe something. I open my eyes and I start to see evidence in a lot of different places. I feel like there are things that have that have always been there like those song ideas, you know, they were always there They just weren't song ideas yet Because no one thought about those things that way You know, the evidence has always been there that God has put on the earth for us to believe.

Um, but we have to be open to it. We need to be looking for it. And once we do, we start seeing it everywhere. So, we start to see those clues. I think that's where it all begins, with that scripture. And then, pretty soon, if you have that desire, Instead of when you see those pieces of evidence, instead of explaining it away or calling it, discounting it, calling it coincidence, which is easy to do, you know, if you're just trying to be logical about everything, pretty soon you start instead watering that seed.

You start realizing, okay, I can collect all these pieces of evidence and you start to get this bigger pile of evidence and um, a bigger picture. to help you believe this thing that you had questions about. And you may not have every single scrap of evidence, but maybe you'll have more evidence of the love that Heavenly Father has for you to help you through the questions that you might always think.

Um, but it's that faith that helps you to see the bigger picture and building on that, what you decide to do with those pieces of evidence that you have.

[00:19:56] Tammy Uzelac Hall: That was profound. In fact, I even wrote in my scriptures, I start to see evidence by Cherie, Cherie call because Oh, thanks. Yeah. I like that perspective so much.

And then you talked about this idea of a seed. And I've studied this so many times in my career, but I'd never viewed it through the lens of a gardener. And my husband is an avid gardener. That is his passion. He plants the biggest garden in the world. Well, okay. That's I clearly live in hyperbole, the biggest garden in my life.

Like he plants 32 tomato plants, usually 22 cucumber plants. But one of the things I know he does, especially with cucumber plants, and this is what struck me with this whole discussion about a seed, is every time he plants cucumber plants, he puts four or five seeds in every little spot. hoping that just one will sprout.

That's how you plant things. I didn't know that. I tried to do a garden back when I was single and it failed miserably. Nothing really, few things were very sprouting sparsely, but he starts with five in one, hoping that one sprouts. And it doesn't say that here. It just said you start with one seed. That just blew my mind.

The Alma is like, listen, this is, this is how easy it's going to be. You don't even need backup seeds. You just need one seed. Just one thought or one thing you're praying about, and we're going to plant that. And then he goes into all these different ideas and, and gives us examples of what we can do so that that seed will grow.

But I loved the end of verse 28 because he says you're planting it. And as you plant it, it starts to sprout. And it says it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious unto me. And when I thought of that, I thought of the tomato plant because I love summer tomatoes. Do you love summer tomatoes?

[00:21:37] Cherie Call: I do. I won't. I hate buying tomatoes at the grocery store. I'll just wait until summer till I can have the real ones again.

[00:21:43] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Yes, totally. This verse, this line struck out to me though, because when it says it beginneth to be delicious unto me, but the plant, it hasn't grown yet. The seed is still sprouting.

And when I see those little tomato plants come up, I can already be so excited. It beginneth to be delicious to me, even though there's no fruit on the plant yet, but I know there will be, I have this hope, like, Oh, please let it be a good crop this year. Let everything in. There's so many variables that come into play, but that plant, as soon as I see the tomato coming up or the cucumber plant, it does become delicious to me because I know I've seen, I have experience or evidence that it does taste so good. With other little experiences.

[00:22:23] Cherie Call: Yeah. You see those little green leaves and I'm really not that great at gardening. I try every year and I get a few things, but every year I plant radishes because they will grow. Um, you could be the worst and the radishes will always grow. So I feel like Heavenly Father probably gives us.

Versions of radishes that are like this is for sure gonna work If you pray and ask me if I love you, then I'll tell you that and I feel like that's maybe one of the easier seeds I don't know. Maybe not for everybody but for me if I if I have trouble believing These big complicated things. If I ask if heavenly father is aware of me and if he loves me, I don't know.

It's easier for me to believe that. So, but I don't know.

[00:23:05] Tammy Uzelac Hall: That is such a great application. Oh my gosh. I love, love, love that because I think you're right. You're right. And when we were little, we're given lots of radishes because they do, they work, they grow, but boy, those persnickety tomato plants, when you get older, takes a little bit more care.

Um, and you got to wait a little bit longer for those. You see the green tomato, but it takes forever for it to turn red. You've got to just wait it out. But that idea of radishes, I believe I will second what Cherie just said. I do believe that when you pray to know that God loves you, that's an instant answer to prayers.

You will feel peace. Anyone who's struggling to know that I will just testify right now. Get on your knees and ask God tonight if he loves you. And then wait because it works. That's an, that's a quick answer to prayer that and humility, but don't pray for humility. That radish, that radish grows before you even plant the seed, but I wanted you to then tell us this idea because you wrote a song called holding on and this is my husband's favorite song that you've ever written.

And this idea of when your tomato plant is coming up and you see the fruit, but you can't have it yet and you're waiting for your answer to come. This whole idea of growth. Tell us about how you wrote the song. I'm Holding On.

[00:24:22] Cherie Call: Well, for me, this goes back again to remembering and how that helps you, um, how it helps you all to your life.

I kind of was thinking about a lot of goals and dreams that I had in my life. And it really helped me to remember all of the people who had, who have been there for me and believed in me and wanted to help me and including Heavenly Father. But also you just think about the things that are worth holding onto and the things that don't matter as much.

And I think that it really does have a lot to do with this idea of planting these seeds. You know, when it comes down to it, the, the favorite dress that doesn't fit anymore. I don't know, maybe we have some, some, um, favorite, I have some favorite grievances, , you know, favorite doubts that I just hold onto, you know, but, um.

But that I just need to let go, you know, there's a lot of things we can let go that aren't really helping us, but the things that matter most is, um, the people in our lives, the people we love, and just the truths that we've always known, collecting that evidence and keeping it. So if I had a way to relate that song, I think that's what I would say.

[00:25:33] Tammy Uzelac Hall: okay, let's listen to the song holding on. I'm sitting here crying in my closet. I love that song so much. Oh, thank you. Thank you. Especially the part where there just are just some things we just have to let go and it's okay. Like I think I like how you said that letting go of some ideas or beliefs that have just kind of work. What did you say you hold on to?

[00:25:55] Cherie Call: like favorite. Doubts or grudges. Yeah.

[00:25:58] Tammy Uzelac Hall: You're holding onto grudges and I just think that song is awesome because we need to hold onto what is true. And I, well, going back to what you said, we need to hold onto our evidences of what is true, and so I appreciate that song. Oh, that was so good.

It was so good. Okay, so then we'll do this in the next segment. While we're all in the midst of holding on, it still requires a little bit of effort on our part. And there's one word that we're going to mark that's used often that's going to help us while we're holding on. We'll do that next.

Segment 4

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[00:26:37] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Grab a highlighter and we are going to highlight one word that is used often in verses 37 through 42. Here we go. This is your word. Okay. Starting in verse 37. We have, and behold, as the tree beginneth to grow, you will say, let us nourish it with great care. Highlight the word nourish. You're going to see it again in verse 37, then you're going to go down and you're going to see it in verse 39.

Nourish the tree. Verse 40, and thus, if you will not nourish the word, looking forward with an eye of faith to the fruit thereof, then go to verse 41. But if you will nourish the word, yea, nourish the tree. There it is again. And then in verse 42, because of your diligence and your faith and your patience with the word in nourishing it, that it may take root in you.

Okay, lots of right there, that word we have nourish a lot. Now I looked up the etymology for the word nourish because I wanted to know exactly am I, am I understanding this correctly? It's a word that dates back to the 1300s and it's pronounced nourishion and it means to supply with food and drink. To feed, to bring up, to nurture, to promote the growth or the development of.

I thought this was interesting. In Hebrew, the word nourish is cool, K U L, but it's pronounced K O O L, and it means to sustain, to support, to nourish, to endure, and to contain. And that just elevated the word nourish for me, to endure or to contain. And so Cherie, I wanted you to tell us a little bit about this idea, like how can we nourish our faith?

[00:28:09] Cherie Call: Sure. Well, I think along with the word nourish, a really important word in all of that segment of scripture is patience. Oh yeah. And I think that, that helps with what you were saying about containing that evidence and the faith that you have. Um, it's patience is, is part of that. It takes constant effort.

You've got to make sure that you're out there with water and pulling weeds and, and, and Giving it all the different nourishment that it needs and it kind of hit me and I guess you know This is not the first time I've read any of this, but we were talking about tomatoes and radishes, and I think all those things apply, but it was interesting to me that this is actually helping us with a tree, and that takes a lot more time.

It takes a lot more over a longer period of time. You have to have more patience. It will take a lifetime, and sometimes even after you die, you know, this tree is providing shade to other people. It's, um, it's living on. So this thing that you're nourishing, sometimes it just really takes, I think about my kids and the struggles that they're going through.

And I just want to pour all the water on at once.

I just want to tell them all the things that I've learned in my life. And you know, the thing that they're going through for the first time. I want to pour all the water on so that they know how to handle it that way every time forever. Yeah. If you have kids, you know, that that doesn't work.

First of all, the water doesn't stay there. It goes out like they're not going to hold all of that water because they don't care about all of that water. They think it can't possibly be the same kind of tree, you know, all that kind of stuff. Um, they have their own tree that they have to grow and it's going to take the time that it's going to take.

People have their own timetable of what they need to learn and how they're going to grow, and it takes effort. You do have to keep nourishing, nourishing your tree of faith with the things you've always known and then the things that you continue to learn. And sometimes there's just more life that you have to live.

Sometimes it just, it's just going to take time and patience. That really struck me as I was reading about, about it being a tree, I guess.

[00:30:26] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Mm hmm. Well, and as you were talking, you said, sometimes the tree will even grow and provide shape after you're dead. You might not even see the benefits in your lifetime of all of the work that you did to nourish that tree.

It made, it took me to verse 43. Will you read verse 43 for us?

[00:30:42] Cherie Call: Sure. Then, my brethren, you shall reap the rewards of your faith, and your diligence and patience and longsuffering, waiting for the tree to bring forth fruit unto you. How many stories do we have about our ancestors who never realized, you know, how big that tree was going to get, um, or even our grandparents, or just people we love who have passed on, um, they never knew the legacy that they left.

But you plant that tree, not just for yourself, but for, but for the people you love and it lives on. Um, the faith that you showed in your life, it's a beautiful picture for people to look back on. And it's like those scriptures that we read about the fiery furnace and everything else. It becomes part of somebody else's evidence that they put in their own pile of things that help them to keep believing.

[00:31:34] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Oh my gosh. I just had an aha when you said that and it made me think, will I be part of someone else's evidence? I want to do that. I want to do that I hope so. I mean, I hope I will. Yeah. Me too. Cause we're in the thick of it right now. Yeah. It is hard. We thought we were when we were single. Who are we kidding?

That's why we have a lot of water to give. Yeah. Oh boy. A lot of water. But I love that idea. Like, am I, will I be someone else's evidence? I hope so. And it draws me right to this song that you wrote, this idea about how to move a mountain, because we often say that, like, if you have the faith of a mustard seed, you could move a mountain, which is like the craziest thing in the world to me, but you tackled that idea.

And I want you to tell us a little bit about your song and how you wrote that.

[00:32:21] Cherie Call: So I grew up in Mesa, Arizona, and there are a few little mountains there, you know, a little bit, but it's nothing like here in Utah where I live. We'd come up to visit relatives sometimes and I'd just marvel, it just really kind of seemed like the mountains were just watching over you and, but I'd be home in Arizona and I remember one time I just really felt like I had a lot of faith and I, I heard that if you have enough faith you can move a mountain and I really did just kind of focus on a mountain and I thought, I know that I can move that mountain.

I have faith and of course, you know, The mountain didn't move when I like, I don't know, I made like praying and hand motions to try to make the mountain move. It didn't move. And like, it was a real thing. I tried. I'm really, really feel silly about that, but I think that's awesome. But I, I, I was really young, you know, I was a young girl, probably like, I don't know, 10 or 11, I think.

And I just remember thinking to myself. Well, that doesn't mean that I don't have enough faith. There must've been really good reasons why that mountain didn't move. Maybe, um, people would have been hurt if everybody could just go around moving mountains all the time. The, the mountains would like hit people and it would like cause problems.

But also like people spend a lot of time on the maps that have the exact place where all the mountains are that have to like redo maps. It would just really, it would be inconvenient. So that has to be the reason why. Heavenly Father wouldn't let me move that mountain. So, I explained it away in my mind, because it couldn't possibly be that I didn't have enough faith.

But I, then I moved up here to Utah to go to school at BYU, and I lived in Heritage Halls, and every day when I walked out of my little dorm, I saw those gigantic mountains, and I remember writing in my little songwriting notebook, These people who think that you can move a mountain, With faith, I don't think they've seen one up close.

I don't think they've seen a mountain up close because I think it's much harder. Um, I don't know. I think it might be harder. And I think, I think that also happens as you get older, the problems seem bigger and the questions. That you didn't even know existed, they, they reveal themselves to you in your life.

And you know, everything isn't quite so black and white and it gets to be harder. Um, so you have more work to do, um, to, to, to get, uh, to move those mountains in your life. You have mistakes that you make, you have challenges that you never thought that you would have. And God wants to help you with all of those things.

Um, but, but you, He can't do it without you putting in. your own effort and care. So I, I ended up writing this song about how to move a mountain. And I mean, I, the spoiler in it is just that sometimes the way that you move a mountain is to take it for being something that you look up at with being overwhelmed and that, but you, and then you climb it.

And so that it's under your feet instead of being something that intimidates you. And, um, I think it could be anything from a bad habit or grief, it could be, you know, any challenge or question or issue of faith that you're going through, when you put forth the effort, you realize that even though it seems like you were alone, God was helping you to climb that mountain and, um, and, and then you moved a mountain, you moved a mountain in your own way.

with the help of Jesus Christ and our Heavenly Father

[00:35:59] Tammy Uzelac Hall: So we're going to take the words of that song and the idea of it, of moving a mountain, because there are many of us right now who are in the midst of trying to move mountains and have the mustering up the faith to do that. And it's all going to come by way of this next aspect of the gospel, which we're going to discuss in the next segment.

Segment 5

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[00:36:26] Tammy Uzelac Hall: So, the next thing that Alma and Amulek are going to talk about is something that just blew my mind. I remember learning about this in seminary and it changed the way I did this one aspect of the gospel. So, let's go mark these verses of scripture. Turn to Alma chapter 33 and I want you to bracket off verses 5 through 11.

And right to the outside of those verses, the word prayer, because Alma is going to now recount the words of the prophet Zenos, and he's going to teach the people all about prayer. Now talk about needing faith and talk about wanting to move mountains. I can't tell you how many prayers I think I've prayed to move mountains in my life.

And so he's going to teach them. Isn't that interesting? He's like, first, let me teach you about faith. And now, by the way, you can talk to God and you can pray for things. So bracket those. And then you want to go to Alma chapter 34. Amulek then comes in and does the exact same thing. It's his turn to talk.

And he's like, let me tell you about prayer. So bracket off versus 17 through 27 and write to the outside prayer. But here's my question for you, Cherie, because they don't necessarily use the word prayer. They use the word cry. Throughout both of these sermons, they say, cry into the, in the field, cry into me in prayer, cry, cry, cry, and then you get down with 34 crying to him.

When you were in your fields, in your houses, crying to him against the power of your enemies, crying to him against the devil. I just wanted to know, this is, I didn't even prep you for this question, but as a lyricist and someone who writes, why do you think they use the word cry instead of praying to him in your fields, praying to him in your houses?

[00:37:57] Cherie Call: Uh, a couple things come to my mind. I go back to that context of the framework of what they had been taught the prayer was and that was climbing up on the rameumptom and just going up and telling everybody how great they are and then not praying again until the next Sunday when they go and do it again, but realizing that That isn't it. That's not prayer.

[00:38:16] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Yeah.

[00:38:16] Cherie Call: Um, what, and maybe, maybe using the word prayer might have been something that would have thrown them off and been like, Oh, prayer. Yeah. I don't want to do, I don't want to do that. Yeah. We saw how that worked. That made us feel bad about ourselves. Right. So instead of saying, you know, cry out, whatever it is that's on your mind, you could be in your field and, you know, Or, you know, about crops that you're hoping would grow better.

Or maybe you're just, that's the only place you can be alone. People don't have to hear you, but God will hear you wherever you are in ways that are not seen by men. I think that was something that caught my eye when I was reading these scriptures. That there'll be heard of, of God, not heard of men. And I think about times in my life when I absolutely done this.

Sometimes I feel like, I mean, when I'm really worried about one of my kids or just a thing in my life. I feel like I'm in a constant state of prayer, you know, um, just in my mind. Sometimes I cry out and sometimes I don't, sometimes it's just in my mind. But, um, I do remember a time being lost in Phoenix, uh, with not a lot of gas in my car and not knowing where I was.

And I just talked to heavenly father, like he was my friend so that he would keep me company until I got home and could figure out where I was. He helped me find my mom's work and I knew how to get home from my mom's work. And so, but I felt like he kept me company if I just started telling him whatever came to my mind.

And that's a lot different than getting up on a tower and saying, I'm so glad I'm better than everybody else. You know, it's just making a, a friend out of God, you know, making God your friend that you could talk to anywhere if you're in your closet or in your field, anything like that.

[00:39:56] Tammy Uzelac Hall: That was the one that struck me when I was in seminary.

And I remember our teacher reading to us, um, a chapter 34, 26, but this is not all you must pour out your souls in your closets, your secret places, and in your wilderness. And I love how you have brought up the idea of the Ramayyamton because it is completely opposite. That was in front of everyone. where they were praying and now he's saying, no, do it in your, on your own, in your closets, in your secret places, in your wilderness, whatever that looks like for you.

I mean, I have, I've definitely prayed in my closet more than once, more than a hundred times. I just, this idea that it's an intimate conversation that you are having with your father. And I love that story. Cherie, where you talked about how you just talked to him like a friend the whole time that you drove home.

What a great idea to just take time to talk because how much do we love it when we're with an old friend and we can just tell them everything that's going on and we love the stories and we love the details of the stories and going back to Elder Wong who beautifully said he is aware of the details of the details of our lives.

Um, so just give them the details, every aspect of it and, and cry or pray. I just, I love the use of that word cry for sure. Yeah.

[00:41:09] Cherie Call: Yeah. So pretty. There was a C. S. Lewis quote that came to my mind about prayer. I find it really relevant in my life right now because sometimes the answers to the prayers that we pray, they take time or they're not what we were hoping for.

Um, but this has been a comforting quote to me. for a lot of years. I pray because I'm helpless. I pray because the need flows out of me all the time, waking and sleeping. It doesn't change God, it changes me. And I love that a lot because, um, when we have trained ourselves to turn to him, um, I think everything, even if it isn't solved right away, Everything is less scary when you can talk about it to a friend.

And if God is your friend, then it changes you. I think you realize that you're able to face things not by yourself. I know a great example to me. My sister passed away. About 19 months ago, almost two years ago, she had kidney cancer and she is an amazing person and she always was so kind to others and so faithful.

And I think it really shook a lot of people in her ward and in her area. That she wouldn't get that miracle that she, that she didn't have that miracle. She lived in Texas and I think, I don't know if it's the influence of evangelical, you know, in that area, but her friends, both in her church and in other churches would often ask her, well, do you have the faith to be healed?

You know, do you have the faith to be healed? And, and it was a hard question for her at first because she. knew that she wasn't going to live. Like, she knew it was terminal. She, she was a physical therapist. She'd done all the medical profession. She could easily talk to doctors about everything and, and she did hope for a miracle.

But she also really knew that she knew, she knew that she wasn't going to live. And she wondered, you know, what does that mean? Does that mean I don't have the faith? What, what does that mean? And, um, she, she had this feeling come over her that she already was healed because of Jesus Christ. And that when she died and lived again, her body would be healed and that she would be whole in every way.

And sorry, I'm sorry. I'm getting emotional about this. I wish that people could realize that she did have the faith to be healed. Um, she absolutely had the faith to be healed because I think that we live in a fallen world where hard things happen. Um, I don't think that God intervenes all the time with the agency that people have, or just the natural way that nature works in the world.

I think the miracles come from. You know, if you ask my sister about miracles, she could list a million every day of the kind of things that people did for her. And that's what changed the people around her and that changed her life. And the miracles happen on a smaller basis. We are the ones who make changes in each other's lives.

Through the help of God, he sends the Holy ghost to help us work. These other miracles. that changed the bigger picture over time. Um, the things we ask for don't always happen, but God is working a different miracle in a bigger picture in a lot of different ways.

[00:44:57] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Cherie, thank you. First of all, thank you for sharing that story about your sister.

I am so sorry. That's heavy. Thank you. It really lends, um, power to just the idea of really crying unto the Lord, having faith. And what that looks like. And I, I'm so grateful that you shared that and how tender that was for all of us listening. I think it also lends to even more power than just, you know, with the song that you're going to share.

Tell us a little bit about that because it's just a one word title and I have a feeling this is going to be pretty cool.

[00:45:33] Cherie Call: So this was funny. I, I went out, this was back when I, I did some albums for Deseret Book and um, our friend Laurel Christensen took me, um, it's Laurel Christensen Day now, but back then it was, she was Laurel Christensen.

She took me out to lunch and she was trying to help me come up with some song ideas. And she said, you know what I think would be cool? Sometimes it's a little bit frustrating to me when you hear an inspirational song and within a cute little two and a half minute chunk of time, poof, everything is solved and everything is perfect.

She said, wouldn't it be great if somebody could write a song about things not turning out all perfect at the end. Um, and so I, I took it as a challenge and I ultimately failed at that because if you listen to the whole song and hear how it ends, you'll see that I wasn't able to make it not work out. At the end.

But it's a song about how sometimes the answer is no. Um, but there's a bigger picture. So that's what this song is. It's just a song called No. It's about the times when the answer is no. But it, but how important it is for us to keep praying and trying to get those answers.

[00:46:53] Tammy Uzelac Hall: All right, let's hear it not work out then.

That was not a fail. That was a win. Oh my gosh. Cherie, that is such a good song. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I can't believe we're at the last segment now. Oh my gosh, I could do this for hours. This has been so fun. So here's what we'll do in the next segment. Cherie's going to share our last song and it's going to sum up everything that we've been talking about today.

We'll do that next.

Segment 6

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[00:47:31] Tammy Uzelac Hall: So this last song is one that I love. It's truly one of my favorites. That one. And he gives flowers, but we couldn't work. He gives flowers into this. So everyone just go look up. He gives flowers. It's that's probably my top one. This is such a perfect song to ending our discussion. So let's turn to Alma chapter 34, and we're going to bracket off versus eight through 10 because verses eight through 10.

It's where Amulek testifies of Jesus Christ. So we just got done learning about faith and I, I mean, I'm never going to forget the idea of radishes. How much do I love that? And nourishing and having patience and praying. And sometimes God says no and all of it. Then Amulek wants us to remember this. So we're going to read out loud verses eight through 10 and then Cherie's going to introduce us to her last song.

So Cherie, can we each take turns? We'll just read verses eight. Then I'll do nine and you do 10.

[00:48:21] Cherie Call: And now behold, I will testify unto you of myself that these things are true. Behold, I say unto you that I do know that Christ shall come among the children of men, to take upon him the transgressions of his people, and that he shall atone for the sins of the world.

[00:48:38] Tammy Uzelac Hall: For it is expedient that an atonement should be made, for according to the great plan of the Eternal God, there must be an atonement made, or else all mankind must unavoidably perish. Yea, all are hardened, yea, all are fallen and are lost. And must perish, except it be through the Atonement, which it is expedient, should be made.

[00:49:01] Cherie Call: For it is expedient that there should be a great and last sacrifice. Yea, not a sacrifice of man, neither of beast, neither of any manner of fowl. For it shall not be a human sacrifice, but it must be an infinite and eternal sacrifice.

[00:49:15] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Thank you. Okay. We're going to just take everything now and put it in a big, nice bubble, package it all up together.

And we're going to end with this song because I, I just, just give us a history about this song. I think it's so good. There's a whole story behind it.

[00:49:32] Cherie Call: Yeah. So I used to work for Southwest Airlines and I would get free travel. I don't know if that's even relevant, but I was, it made it so I could fly home, fly to a lot of different places, but I flew home to Arizona all the time.

And, and one time I. Um, was on this flight down to Phoenix from Salt Lake. And there was a guy who was just making a stop in Phoenix. Like, he stayed on the same plane without getting off, but the plane made a stop southwest. Used to do that a lot, they probably still do. But, um, anyway, he was from, coming from Oregon, I think?

Anyway, I was sitting, I came and sat down by him and I wasn't planning on striking up a conversation. I'm not the kind of person who's ever really given away Book of Mormons on planes or anything like that.

[00:50:19] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Sure, I'm the same way. Yeah, don't talk to me.

[00:50:21] Cherie Call: I just kind of keep to myself. I opened up a magazine, but he really wanted to talk.

He was similar in age to me. I might've been a tiny bit older, just graduated from college, but he was still in college. Anyway, He wanted to strike up a conversation, and he said, Yeah, I noticed that you're You're getting on a plane in Salt Lake going somewhere. And he asked me where I was going. He said, okay, so you live in Salt Lake.

Are you a Mormon? And I said, yes. And he said, well, you, you look like a Mormon. You look like a Mormon to me. And I was like, oh man, was that me? But he started asking me questions and I felt nervous because I, I didn't go on a mission. I didn't know all of the textbook things that you're supposed to say, but he.

Um, he told me that he was an atheist, and he was a science major, and all the things he was learning about in science just made him think that there was really not any need to believe in God. But he asked me what I thought about that, and I was even more nervous, but I just told him all the It went back to the evidence for me.

I told him about all the evidence that I could see, um, that there is a god. And I told him, you know, it's okay if you don't believe the same things that I do, but it's really hard for me to believe that all of this could have just been an accident. It's so beautiful, and the people I love in my life, and the beautiful world that we live in.

We ended up getting into a really great big conversation. Um, I told him about having heavenly parents and how we want to become like them. And, um, he told me about how he thought that physics was actually God. And we had this big conversation and he had to admit that there were a lot of things that he didn't really understand or know everything about.

And so that's, that was kind of the takeaway for him is. Maybe I don't understand everything. And there are things that you've said that made more sense than I thought they would. You know, you probably just thought I was a kooky person that was weird. But I actually said a few things that made a little bit of sense to him.

Even though, you know, I'll never know if If any missionaries ever caught up to him or joined the church, he might even be irritated if he heard this song, but, but I had this overwhelming feeling when I was talking to him that Heavenly Father loved him a lot and that he was going to keep on loving him, whether or not that man ever decided to even believe in God, God was going to still love him anyway.

And, you know, I think that God probably cared for him. And did things for him, even though he didn't believe in God. And I was glad that I could have that conversation with him, and it just makes me think of just this bigger picture, and and just that we really are brothers and sisters. All of us are part of this great big family, and we're all trying to believe, we're all trying to nourish our own tree.

And we're all trying to figure everything out and, and God wants us all to come back. So, there are things that I don't understand. There are things that pass my understanding, you know, that I don't understand. Um, but, uh, but the biggest thing that in a positive way is bigger than I can understand is just the love that Heavenly Father has for all of us and He can give us peace.

No matter what we're going through and, uh, help us to develop that faith over time.

[00:53:38] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Okay. Here goes her song. It's called Passes All my Understanding.

Cherie, thank you for writing that song. I mean, I'm thinking about everything we've talked about. We just ended with reading those beautiful verses about the atonement of Jesus Christ. Boy, that passes all my understanding. I don't even fully understand that, but everything I just, the message of your song is that he lives.

That God is real. And I go back to how you said, when God is your friend, it changes you. And I, I just believe that too. And I love that you shared that with us, that God is our friend. He loves us. He is everywhere. He is in everything. And so I, I couldn't think of a better way to end our episode of talking about faith and prayer and the atonement of Jesus Christ.

So thank you. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and your experiences and your talent of writing music.

[00:54:33] Cherie Call: Oh, thank you, Tammy. It was really a pleasure. I. I love talking to you about these things. Oh, I love you.

[00:54:39] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Okay. So at the end of the episode, we're asking all of our guests this summer to just share with us.

We're quoting James chapter one, verse two, that says, my brethren count it all joy when you fall into divers temptations, or in other words, when you fall into many trials. So Cherie, you've been through a lot and you shared that your sister passed away, which is so just disheartening. You also got married later in life and there've been a lot of things in your life that I think you have definitely.

Um, you know, divers temptations or many trials. So tell us, how have you counted it joy or what's your advice?

[00:55:13] Cherie Call: I feel like I, I counted as joy because I feel like I am able to be a good listener. I think that I am able to have empathy for people who are going through difficult times. Even if I haven't been through the exact same things that they've been through, um, I love having the chance to listen to other people and to be a friend.

And the, the relationships I have in my life and the connections that I have in my life, that's what the meaning of life is to me. I, I love whether it's my children or my family members. or dear friends, um, being able to share the ways that life has refined us. It just brings me a lot of joy to look back and, and just once again, to see that evidence of the ways that Heavenly Father has helped me.

I feel that joy and I feel joy when I realize that I'll see my family and my sister again someday. Um, that gives me a lot of joy also. Yeah, I guess that's what brings me joy during difficult times.

[00:56:19] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Thank you. That is a great, great advice that we can all take. So thanks friend. Oh, I love you. This was awesome.

Love you too. Okay. That might be my favorite episode. I know I always say every to everybody I know, Oh, that was the best episode ever. Holy cow. I love listening to her music. It was so good. Okay. Listen, do this. Do this. Join us on Facebook and Instagram, go and sign up. And I want you guys to do this. I just want you to share things you've learned.

I want to know what this experience was like having music to be able to listen and study the idea of faith and prayer and the atonement. Cause that was so cool. And then we'll actually post a question from this episode on Saturday. That's usually when we post it. So make sure that you comment on the post that relates to this lesson and share your thoughts.

You can get to both our Facebook and Instagram by going to the show notes for this episode at ldsliving. com slash Sunday on Monday and go there anyway. It's where we're going to have links to all the references that we use today as well as a transcript of this entire discussion. So go check it out.

Hey, and speaking of Arizona, my Arizona friends and home of our guest, Cherie Call, I'm coming out to visit you. So join me on September 21st in Phoenix for a time out for women slash Magnify all day event. It is going to be so much fun and I would love to meet you. So go to magnify the good. com and you can find out all the information and sign up.

The Sunday on Monday study group is a Deseret bookshelf plus original. brought to you by LDS living. It's written and hosted by me, Tammy Uzelac Hall. And today our beautifully talented study group participant was Cherie Call, and you can find more information about her at LDS living. com slash Sunday on Monday.

Our podcast is produced by Cole Wissinger and me. It is edited and mixed by Cole Wissinger and our executive producer is Erin Hallstrom. Thanks for being here. We'll see you next week. And please remember that God loves you. You are his favorite and he is your friend.