The following transcript is intended to aid in your study. However, while we try to go through the transcript, our transcripts are primarily computer-generated and often contain errors. Please forgive the transcripts’ imperfections.

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[00:00:00] Tammy Uzelac Hall: In an October, 2011, general conference talk given by president Russell M. Nelson, who was Elder Nelson at the time, he talked about covenants and he said this. One of the most important concepts of revealed religion is that of a sacred covenant. Now, listen, if you look up the definition of covenant, you're going to find it defined as a formal solemn binding agreement, usually between two or more parties.

I think we're all familiar with that, but what really? Does covenant mean for members of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints? And why is there so much emphasis put on covenants? Today, as we study Alma chapters 23 through 29, we are going to dig into the doctrine of covenants and learn about a group of people who were willing to die.

And some did in order to keep the covenants they had made. And I can't help but wonder what I welcome to the Sunday on Monday study group, a desert bookshelf plus original brought to you by LDS living where we take the come follow me lesson for the week. And we really dig into the scriptures together.

I'm your host Tammy. Uzelac hall. Now, if you're new to our study group. Please follow the link in our description, and it's going to explain how you can best use this podcast to enhance your come follow me study. Just like my friends, Kathy Harvey, Nancy Shoup, Leslie McFarland, and Janine Porter.

Hello ladies. Thank you for listening. Okay. Now here's my favorite thing about our study group is each week. I'm joined by two of my friends. So it's always a little bit different. And today is a little bit different because we've never had these two on before. And I could not be more thrilled. I've wanted to have them on for a very long time.

And they're here. We have Steven Sargent and Steve Zolman. Hi, you two.

[00:01:40] Steve Sargent: Hello.

[00:01:41] Steve Zolman: Hello.

[00:01:42] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Okay. Tell me how you guys know each other. This I think is a good story.

[00:01:46] Steve Zolman: Well, Sarge is the senior companion. So I'll let him lead out. I still view him as my. As my trusty leader. So he needs to go first.

[00:01:57] Steve Sargent: Okay. So Steve and I served missions in Oklahoma city, Oklahoma circa, I started like 1994 and Steve, I think 95, so a year apart.

And. About the midway point of my mission, I was called to serve up in Ponca city. And Steve was actually already serving there on the other side of the city. So we served together and got to know each other really well. I was the district leader up there and, uh, we both loved our companions, but became friends through that interaction and then halfway.

Well, I guess, was it a month into it? Well, back up a little bit. Steve being the gutsy young man that he was, his best friend's father worked for the airlines and was preparing for a mission and Steve reached out to our mission president, president Grant Patch and asked for permission for his, his Best friend to come out and serve this little mini mission for about three or four days in Ponca City, Oklahoma.

And by some miracle, President Patch allowed that. I think absolutely divine intervention. Um, so anyway, I got to know Steve really well and his best friend, Adam. And then the next month they moved in a group of sisters that took over my area and I moved in with, with Elder Zolman. And we served for just a couple of months together, but, uh, definitely memorable months where we gained a really good friendship and then post, post mission, I went up to Rick's college.

And, uh, so I was a year ahead of Steve at school and was interacting a little bit with him and, and even Adam, his friend at that point, and then we decided to be roommates that second year. And, uh, maybe Steve, you take over from there.

[00:03:43] Steve Zolman: Yeah, because this is when this is where the divine intervention comes in.

So, um, you know, as a return missionary, you're on the hunt.

[00:03:50] Tammy Uzelac Hall: For a good lady.

[00:03:54] Steve Zolman: Yeah. Yeah. So Sarge has kind of paved the path up in Idaho and my buddy and I, Adam, who Sarge is also buddies with at this point, he says, well, we got a place. So he, we, we went up there and moved in with Sarge and Sarge introduces my, our buddy, Adam to his 1st cousin, Denise, they're now happily married 20 plus years.

And then, um, Sarge's. F. H. E. Dude for my now wife, Annie, he introduced me to my wife, so he is like the fixer. So it's like, we have to be friends. He's, he's the reason I have 6 kids and a wife who, um, you know, is still hanging with me. So it's so Sarge and I have a deep and hit and you, you know, You know, some of his family, but his, it's just an incredible family.

And so being up in this college experience, you know, we're all on a shoestring budget. You know, I'm milking cows at four in the morning and, and, um, you know, we're having our, our little internal, you know, roommate opportunities of just creating great memories and, and, but Sarge's family took care of us.

Like that's where we went on Sunday and got to know all the siblings and the family and feel like I'm a part of them. And so for the, for all of my adulthood, um, these, the, these guys, the sergeants. And Adam Christian and this, this collective group has been our favorite group of friends. So anytime we can come up with a reason to get together, uh, we do.

[00:05:29] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Hey, that's a pretty great story. That's awesome. And I agree with you about the sergeants. They take care of people. I've had that. I've benefited from them so many times. And for those of you listening, if you're like, is that the same family that did the living Christ episode in December? Yes, it is. So you've heard from all the sergeants, all the sergeant kids and the parents.

And um, it was such a beautiful episode, including. Sarge's beautiful mom who has since passed away, um, that was neat experience to hear sort of her last living will and testament about the savior Jesus Christ. It was powerful. So I'm excited. Okay. This is a fun little note though. When I got my mission call before I opened it, I remember someone said, is there anywhere you don't want to go before you open it?

And I said, yes, Oklahoma, and I'm dying I've since repented. I've been there. It's beautiful. I would have gladly taken Oklahoma. What was I thinking? Oh my gosh. That's so funny.

[00:06:24] Steve Sargent: I faked it really well at the opening time, but yeah,

[00:06:29] Tammy Uzelac Hall: well, I think that's well, okay. But this is kind of funny though, because.

I don't know if anyone remembers last year, we did an episode with the three missionaries, the three young men who were getting ready to go on their missions. And two of the boys were sergeants sons. And one, his oldest son is the one who got his mission called to St. George, Utah. And he talked about how he had to fake it really well.

Look at all, we're coming full circle and now dad's on the episode. So this is going to be a fun discussion. I'm really looking forward to your guys's input and stories. So this is going to be great. All right. If you want to know more about my guests. You can read their bios and see their pictures. Do you guys have pictures of you as missionaries together?

[00:07:06] Steve Sargent: I just actually text one to you. That's pretty hilarious with us. Thrift store suits that you're going to love.

[00:07:12] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Fantastic. Okay. Yes.

[00:07:15] Steve Zolman: And we both had hair back then.

[00:07:20] Tammy Uzelac Hall: That's something. Everybody go check out our show notes, which are found at LDS living. com slash Sunday on Monday, read their bios and see their fantastic pictures.

Okay. So here's a really quick recap from last week. Aaron taught Lamoni's father and the King's entire household was converted to the Lord. This Lamoni's father or King of the Lamanites loved Aaron so much that he sent out a decree to all of the people that they were not to hurt Aaron or any of his brothers who were Ammon, Omner, and Hamni.

And these men went from city to city teaching and establishing churches to thousands of Lamanites who were converted. So from there, grab your scriptures and let's dig into Alma chapters 23 through 29. Okay, you two, tell me what the Holy Ghost taught you as you were studying these chapters.

[00:08:07] Steve Zolman: Well, I, you know, I think for me, um, the, the one thing that makes it serendipitous and fun to be able to do this with Sarge is the miracles that one can see in the service of God.

Like when you are called and set apart and serving full time, I mean, Ammon had to convince Lamoni that he was just a human. Because it's like, why, how are you able to do what you're doing? I've never had such a faithful servant. So when you think about that calling and that mantle that comes with missionary work, you become an instrument.

And so, uh, the one thing that, you know, we'll later read about is this, like boasting of, The power of our, of Christ and of God's power and this amazement that exactly what was prophesied happened and that all those missionaries were safe amid so much bloodshed and horror really. And, um, and, and yet God was able to magnify and create opportunities for.

The good ones to be converted. And so, uh, to me that it was just another, another affirmation that even the rustiest of hammers, in the hands of the Lord can build some of the most beautiful structures and opportunities that, um, that we can all participate in where we just, when you just say heavenly father, can I be a tool in your hands?

How can I help? Um, it's amazing what can happen as a mortal human, uh, how God can magnify that calling.

[00:09:45] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Wow. Steve, I loved your analogy. And I wrote this down in my scriptures that the rustiest of hammers can build heavenly structures. That is good, because I think every one of us listening, oh boy, are we rusty.

That's a great analogy. Thank you. All right, Sarge. What about you?

[00:10:02] Steve Sargent: Well, I definitely agree with, with Steve talking about the serendipity of us discussing this topic together. So Oklahoma, our mission president's wife used to describe it as the buckle of. The Bible belt. So they were very, very heavily Baptist and set in their ways as far as their religion was concerned.

And so the conversion rate was pretty minimal. And so when you finally did get someone to build a spirit and. Enter the waters of baptisms. It's something that stuck with you very much. And, and I guess contrasting that or comparing that to the anti Nephi Lehights and seeing the sacrifice that they made for their conversion to the gospel, um, really just struck home and, and, you know, Made me, uh, just feel the same spirit that I did as a missionary in Oklahoma.

Those good people with their faith in Christ.

[00:11:01] Tammy Uzelac Hall: I have a followup question for probably both of you. If you have an answer to this Sarge, you said that the people were set in their ways. And one of the words that's used to describe this throughout the Book of Mormon is the traditions. They believed in the traditions of their fathers.

And our story talks a lot about how they were able to convince them that the traditions of the fathers are wrong, or the scriptures say that they no longer believed in the traditions or they, they went against the way they were set in their ways. I want to know, is there a story that comes to mind about someone who maybe just gave up their traditions or no longer was set in their ways?

Do you have a story, a conversion story from your mission?

[00:11:38] Steve Sargent: So my, my area prior to serving with, with Steve was an area called Choctaw. And Steve's heard of this family. There's a family by the name of the couches from Choctaw and, uh, We met them by way of a member referral. Uh, they were, had become really good friends with some members of the ward.

And these were some of the most stout, really faithful members, but also members that were from the area that were just as Southern as they could be. And, uh, did such a good job of preparing the couch family. Christopher and Carolyn couch was their names. And, uh, anyway. They introduced us to them one night and my companion and I got to be fast friends with them.

And she is of German heritage, the area that we were serving in, um, kind of Northern Oklahoma city near Midwest city, where there's some military bases. This is where Chris was working. And so they're, they're transient. They'd been all over the country and, Happened to be there at the right time to meet this wonderful family in Choctaw.

And through their, their love and concern for them, um, they totally changed their life and, and ended up being baptized. So I baptized Carol, Carolyn and Christopher. And then that same weekend, Christopher was able to receive the Aaronic priesthood and baptize his son who was nine years old at the time, Jonathan Couch.

And, uh, Definitely life changing and post mission. I was actually able to attend with them, the temple in Bountiful and we went through Salt Lake city as well, but they were settled in Bountiful, um, shortly after I returned from my mission. Weeks after they got baptized, I was reviewing the tracting records in our area.

Um, we had some really good elders that preceded us and there was a very good records. And we came to the street where the couches lived and I found their address and it said, do not visit. So I asked Carolyn about it and she said, well, these elders came to the door and I, I was sick of being solicited.

And so I put on a big show for them basically, and scared the missionaries off and they had a horrible experience with them and because of that, she'd been banned from the track team. And so it was super cool. To see without this member of family, we definitely would have never come across these wonderful people.

[00:14:07] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Very cool story. Wow. That's awesome. Thank you for sharing that. What about you, Steve?

[00:14:13] Steve Zolman: Well, I had, I had a, uh, a similar experience where my, uh, missionary companion and I were in, in Midwest city, just trying to get something going. You always come home at the end of a long day and check your messages. So we checked our message and it was from.

One of the sisters in the ward named sister, sister Gilbertson and sister Gilbertson had, had been a member for 30 years and was a faithful, devout member, uh, her husband who she was from Scotland, they had met, um, after the war and he had never joined the church. She was a member prior to them getting married, stayed faithful, but he would attend.

And, and, and so it was great to get a call from her. Cause we kind of thought, Oh, maybe we're going to teach her husband who had already been taught, I think 15 times throughout the years by different elders. But she called and said, Hey, we're wondering if we can have you come over to dinner. Uh, my son in law would like to talk to you.

And so we're like, sure. So we, we go over and kind of like how Sarge had the experience with the couches where there was this like instant bond, like this guy, you walked in and you were meeting a hell's end. Like this guy looked 100 percent opposite of what you would say. A guy that's trying to find God would, I mean, he, he looked rough, but he was the sweetest man.

And we had this, a series of five weeks of just pure teaching bliss that was like, um, you know, made all the tough days on the doors worth it. Um, Where he just took to it and it was so fun to meet with him. And we just met every Wednesday and sister guild was an amazing cook. So we always finished off with the mill and similar to Sarge, the day came where.

He was baptized and it was so fun. Cause for about four weeks, he would come to church. And he's like, well, what, what should I wear? I said, just wear whatever you're comfortable in. Like, don't, don't feel like you need to do anything other than like, you'll see these people love you regardless. And so for four weeks, he had this Levi jacket and you'd wear jeans and you'd wear a little polo shirt.

And the day before his baptism, uh, or the week before the Sunday before his baptism, I walk into the lobby and I see this short haired. You know, Nelson had hair down to the middle of his back. This guy was short hair in a three piece suit. And he's like elders, Olman. And I'm like, no way it's Nelson Barnes.

My guy, I'm like, you look awesome. He goes, I, for the first time, I look how I feel inside. I'm so excited about getting baptized. So I was able to baptize him. And, you know, it was really the first experience for me to see having him have to talk through some of the things that had been part of his life habits.

He had to get rid of, there were things where he's like, I don't think God's going to forgive me elders. Like he had all these little things that he said, I don't think I am worthy to be able to receive the blessings that you guys are talking about. And sure. You know, as a, as a pre missionary, you have your foibles of youth, but I had never seen such a contrast of where he said he was to when we were hugging in the baptismal font, it was such a contrast and the spirit was so strong.

And then we, um, he got baptized. And then we immediately gave him the priesthood and then he baptized his three kids and it was glorious. You know, I remember it like it was yesterday, but I mean, what was that like 30 years ago?

[00:17:54] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Wow. Okay. Both of your stories could not have been more perfect in setting us up to read Alma chapter 23 verses five through six.

Let's just go there really fast. Turn to Alma chapter 23 verses five through six, because There are so many Lamanite converts. And I love the wordings you guys use. I mean, these Lamanite converts, they're giving up habits that they had to get rid of, probably thinking they're not worthy to be forgiven. So in Alma chapter 23, verses five through six, Steve, will you please read that for us?

[00:18:26] Steve Zolman: And thousands were brought to the knowledge of the Lord. Yay. Thousands were brought to believe in the traditions of the Nephites and they were taught the records and prophecies. Which were handed down even to the present time, and as sure as the Lord liveth, so sure as many as believed, or as many as were brought to the knowledge of the truth, through the preaching of Ammon and his brethren, according to the spirit of revelation, and a prophecy, and the power of God working miracles in them.

Yea, I say unto you, as the Lord liveth, as many of the Lamanites as believed in their preaching, and were converted unto the Lord, never did fall away.

[00:19:02] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Thank you. And thank you for your stories. That is so perfect for these verses. And so these Lamanite converts, then as a result of their conversion, they wanted to do something specific.

We're going to find out what that is in the next segment.

Segment 2

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[00:19:24] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Now, you two both have the same name, Steve, Steven. I want to know, I'm just curious. Is there a story to how either one of you got your name? Do you guys have a backstory to your name?

[00:19:33] Steve Sargent: .So I can go first. Uh, I am the middle child of five siblings. So I have two older and two younger sisters. We have Sarah, Rachel, Stephen, Leah, and Ruth.

And so if you can identify a trend there, those are all biblical names. So my sisters were all named after Bible ladies. And I, Stephen was named after the first martyr of the new Testament. A little twist on my name. My name is spelled S T E V A N. And so it's after my father, Van Sargent. Anyway, that's how I got my name.

[00:20:09] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Perfect. Great story. What about you, Steve Zollman?

[00:20:13] Steve Zolman: Oh, so my name as. A little longer story. My dad is from Eastern Montana. So my dad grew up pretty rough conditions. They had their first four babies. So my poor grandma who was in Glendive living in a refurbished chicken coop, her first four babies all passed away.

And so there was Ellen Grace who died of There was Stephen Ray who died of SIDS. They think, and then there was Phillip Dean who was a bustling little two year old, and I have a picture of him, but Phillip Dean drowned at a family reunion when he was like two and a half. I mean, talk about the worst luck of all time.

So there was a fourth child that died as a teenager, but their first three babies died. So my dad was the first surviving child. And my dad was between eight and 12 and sister missionaries knocked on their door. And said to my grandmother. We have a story about how your families can be together forever.

And my grandma's like, please come in. So my grandma took to the gospel. My grandpa never did. And those kids started going to church and of my grandma's eight or nine siblings. There's only a few that remained active, but my dad was one of them. And he found so much joy in family history because of these brothers and the sister that had passed that he wished they were there because he knew there was something innately about him that realized that a lot of that trauma made for a rough upbringing for him.

So he longed To be with those celestial siblings. And so being the first son born, my name is Steven Phillips. So after Steven Ray and Philip Dean, and I've since given those names to my son. So I have Dean Christian and Zachary Steven. I also have an Adam Burns who's named after his grandfather and the first earthly father.

So that's how I got my name. And I've found a lot of strength in those kinds of guardian angels, filling a connection to those celestial uncles.

[00:22:21] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Oh my goodness. I'm so glad you told us that story because it gives so much more wealth and power to this story that I have about your name. You don't even know I'm going to share this with you, but this is so fun.

So when Sarge's sister, Sarah is one of my very best friends and Sarah said, You really need to have my brother and his friend Steve Zolman on the podcast. And so we were going back and forth and I was getting information and I'm like, okay, how do I contact Steve Zolman? And so she gave me your information.

And then she said this, that your name in the Sergeant family is very significant. And she said he has become an adjective in our family. All of the kids refer to lifelong besties as quote, finding your Steve Zolman. That's what they call it. Did you find your Steve Zolman? And I thought that was so powerful.

Now, knowing your story, you just have this, this connection. And of course, finding your Steve Zolman and Sarge found his Steve Zolman. This is so awesome. Your name is significant. I like how she said it's an adjective in their family.

And the reason why I wanted us to hear these stories and think about finding your Steve Zolman or having a significant name is there is a name that's very significant in Alma chapter 23.

So let's go there. Alma chapter 23, and we're going to look at verses 16 through 18. Thousands of Lamanites are converted. And after this conversion process, they need something new. They want a new name. And we're going to read these verses versus 16 through 18. And so Sarge, will you please read those for us?

And we're going to find out why they want a new name.

[00:23:49] Steve Sargent: And now it came to pass that the King and those who were converted were desirous that they might have a name that thereby they might be distinguished from their brethren. Therefore the King consulted with Aaron and many of their priests concerning the name that they should take upon them, that they might be distinguished.

[00:24:07] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Thank you. Let's put a circle around the word distinguished. It's twice in verse 16. They want to be distinguished from everyone else. And I think that's pretty neat. Zolman, especially in light of what you named your sons, very distinguished names. They mean something. So Steve Zolman, will you read verse 17?

Here's the new name that they're going to take on.

[00:24:28] Steve Zolman: And it came to pass that they called their names Anti Nephi Lehi's, and they were called by this name and were no more called Lamanites.

[00:24:36] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Okay, let's highlight that name. It's very significant. And we're going to talk about what this name actually means.

It's so fun because it's not what we think it means. In our vernacular, when we think of anti, we think of against, but that's not the connotation here. So first of all, the fact that it's Nephi Lehi's, it's a combination of the name Nephi and Lehi. Okay. But anti actually means face to face meeting, and Hugh Nibley teaches this.

He says it doesn't mean against, it means a face to face meeting, adjoining together with somebody. So now this name means adjoining together. Of the Nephi and Lehi people of that tradition. And that for me makes so much more sense than being against Nephi or against Lehi. They're joining together.

They're coming face to face with this new lifestyle that they're going to take on. And so that name is going to be so powerful. And I want to know what were your, some of your thoughts when you think about that anti versus how we think of it?

[00:25:37] Steve Zolman: Well, I think the, uh, cause I, I did a little more reading on that.

And even the definition around antichrist. I had always believed that to be somebody who was in direct opposition versus this lookalike. So I never, I hadn't put that together that anti Christ is somebody proclaiming to actually be him and trying to look as much like him as possible, which, which was eye opening.

So it's, and it also kind of makes you go. Okay. So this 14 year old, like uneducated is, is how would you ever come up with this? If it's not just a direct translation? I mean, it's just, it's just amazing. Another little, you know, kind of arrow in the quiver that says this, this is a translated book.

[00:26:25] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Oh, my gosh.

I got chills as you just taught that. That was so cool. You're absolutely right about Quarahor and the next, next week we'll talk about that. Him being the antichrist. You're totally right. He wanted to be like him. Take the place of that. It's so cool. Sarge, anything from you?

[00:26:41] Steve Sargent: Well, when I was studying this section, uh, I was just thinking about surnames specifically and how much meaning that can carry.

Like you mentioned Zolman to us might be an adjective around the Sargent family, but I was brought back. We've got a hall in my parents home that my parents home was fairly small and in this hallway it led back to our master bathroom and a couple of bedrooms and in that hall it's loaded with family photos and A lot of them are family.

I know, but a lot of them are ancestors that I had never had the chance to meet. And I always had a sense for my parents that they reverenced their ancestors and the meaning of their names specifically. My dad's a sergeant, my mother's a Romrel. And actually in that hallway, my dad has a plaque hanging there.

From the time I was a little boy and I can remember reading it, he never said one word about this plaque, but it has great meaning to me. And so I had him take a picture and send it to me. If that's okay. I'd like to read it to you. So it just has our family name Sergeant and it says you got it from your father.

It was all he had to give. So it's yours to use and treasure for as long as you may live. If you lose the watch he gave you, it can always be replaced, but a black mark on your name, son can never be erased. It was clean the day you took it and a worthy name to bear when he got it from his father, there was no dishonor there.

So make sure you guard it wisely. After all is said and done, you'll be glad the name is spotless when you give it to your son. And when my dad sent that to me today, I said, make sure that this plaques left to me in your will, because it, I can remember that just having such great impact on me as a youth and how much meaning there is specifically in a surname and what it represents.

And Nephi and Lehi obviously are such significant, um,

individuals in, in the, the gospel on this continent. And so it's, it's a cool thing that those people took on their names.

[00:28:49] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Thank you for sharing that. I'm so glad that you read that plaque to us. The cool thing about it is you were reading it and the significance of names and what they mean and the legacy that we leave because of our name.

Look at the legacy that the anti Nephi Lehi's will lead in verse 18. There's four things we're going to label right here that now the anti Nephi Lehi's will be known for doing, and I'll read that and we're going to number them. Here we go. And they began to be a very industrious people. There's number one and they were friendly with the Nephites or number two friendly.

Therefore they did open a correspondence with them. Number three and the curse of God did no more follow them. Number four. I really like open a correspondence with them. I wanted to know more what that meant and I studied it and it means. To remove all barriers, such as judgments, ideologies, and false traditions.

And so they opened a correspondence, meaning no more judgment. At all. We have no more barriers. We are free and loving with all people. They saw the error of their ways. And then for the curse of God to no more follow them. That means being cut off from God's presence because they have now been forgiven of all their sins.

So what a legacy that name's going to leave. And I want you to kind of think about that. As we then go into this next segment, because these people got their significant Steve Zolman name so significant to them. And now they're going to do a very significant action. And we're going to talk about that in the next segment.

Segment 3

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[00:30:26] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Okay. For this segment, I've actually asked Sarge and Steve Zolman to retell the story in Alma chapter 24. So you guys hit it. What happened? What did the anti Nephi Lehi's do?

[00:30:41] Steve Sargent: The entire group there, right, they didn't all become converted and didn't all change their name to anti Nephi Lehites. There were some that kind of were still against the brethren of the anti Nephi Lehites.

And so there began to be kind of a lot of contention because of their conversion, which is not uncommon. I mean, you see that as missionaries for sure. People will ostracize. Family members or joining the church. And so I can definitely identify with those good people. And they began to, uh, rebel against the king because of that hatred.

And then that year the king died, right? And so the Lamanites started to prepare to bring war against these good people. The anti Nephite Lehigh's.

[00:31:27] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Well, and I think of, I thought of Steve Zolman, because how about the fact when the king died before he does? He actually named his son anti Nephi Lehi, he gave him that name.

That's a mouthful. Yeah.

[00:31:39] Steve Sargent: That is a lot.

[00:31:40] Tammy Uzelac Hall: So his son will become the new king, but his name is anti Nephi Lehi and he is an anti Nephi Lehite.

[00:31:47] Steve Sargent: They talked about how the people of anti Nephi Lehi had, they'd been through so much, they'd, they'd done a lot of evil things in their past and because of their conversion, they want to know part of that moving forward.

And so anti Nephi Lehi told them and they decided to, Make a covenant not to take up arms against, uh, these Lamanites that were coming after them. And so they buried their weapons of war and committed to not take up arms against them in spite of the fact that they knew they were coming for them. And, uh, it's an amazing story of courage and faith and just the power of conversion.

Like. The odds couldn't be greater against these people, or I guess the stakes couldn't be higher when, when people are coming to kill them and they have experience in fighting and know what to do, but they know that, that God, our heavenly father didn't want them to stain the swords with the blood of their brethren once again.

And so they covenant not to do that. And as they came upon them, they basically. Nailed to the ground and, and the Lamanites came upon them and killed, I think it said a thousand and five of the anti Nephi Lehi's. And as these Lamanites committed these horrible acts, they saw the courage and the faith of these people and just through that act were converted.

And I think it says that there were more, more people among the Lamanites that were converted that were then were shed, um, by the hands of the Lamanites. And so. Um, it's interesting though, throughout the chapter that, uh, the King continually just shouts praises of thanksgiving throughout the whole thing for the power of repentance through the atonement of Christ.

Um, I think the recognition he has that there are things that are worse than death, like he understands, um, things from an eternal perspective, from a celestial point of view, like our President Nelson would say.

[00:33:43] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Well, Steve, I'm curious. What's the point of this story? If you are teaching this to your children, what do you want them to know about this?

What's the so what to this story?

[00:33:52] Steve Zolman: Yeah, well, to me, I mean, the thing that is such a, uh, I mean, when you think about what kids are having to go through today. Right and you say, you know, what, where, where, where are you focused? Like, what, who are you trying to impress? Who, who is most important that feels like you put in a good day?

Right. And I think it's just, it really is a checkup, even to a faithful saint, someone who's trying to do all they can. Is your testimony grounded as such that you would pray as you are getting slain and at the very same time knowing that your soul is safe? Because these people talked about how they don't have any more guilt.

Like they have felt the actual repair of repentance and that they were like, Hey, we have killed so many people. We cannot fathom getting even close to the people we used to be. And so when you think about a real change of heart, when you think about real repentance, what I would want my kids to understand is there is a depth of oneness that you can have with God and Christ to where you would rather die than sin.

And in such a short amount of time, I mean, I get it. It's not like this had curated for you know, centuries. This is, this is in a very short amount of time. They were very well aware of the darkness and the depth of sin that they had been participating in. And they also had contrasted that with the pure light and forgiveness and repentance that came through accepting Christ.

And to me, that's the, for us to turn to our own self and say, I think these things I'm being asked to do or directed to do, or the spirits telling me to do are. All in good practice, given that this is an opportunity to endure and become one face to face like the anti Nephile eyes were.

[00:35:42] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Wow. Excellent answer to the "so what" question and your summation of that Sarge was so good because 1 of the things I remember teaching. This is a seminary teacher. Uh, years and years ago. I don't think they do this anymore. But I remember we were supposed to challenge our kids and we'd give them swords out of paper and you're supposed to write what's your sword?

What one thing do you need to bury so you can be better at which is cute. But I think I like better what you have just discussed, which is Every one of us have buried our swords the day we enter into a covenant with Christ. We're, we're all sword barriers, but how many times do you want to reach back in and grab that sword out?

Are we that converted? And I like how you just bore witness and testimony that this is a story of conversion and going back to how converted are we, would we, I love how you said the scariest thing for all of us is to die when really right here, they would rather die. Die for him and keep their covenants.

That might be even scarier is to actually really, truly be converted. There's a word I want us to Mark. Let's go into Alma chapter 24, verse 18, because here's the reason why they were willing to die for their conversion. Alma, chapter 24, verse 18. And Steve, will you read that for us?

[00:36:53] Steve Zolman: Yep. And, and this they did in being in their view a testimony to God and also to men that they never would use weapons again for the shedding of man's blood.

And this they did vouching and covenanting with God. That rather than shed the blood of their brethren, they would give up their own lives rather than take away from a brother they would give unto him, and rather than spend their days in idleness, they would labor abundantly with their hands.

[00:37:22] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Thank you.

If we go back to the beginning of 18, I want us to find the word that says covenanting and highlight that. Then this, they did vouching and covenant team with God. That stood out to me when I read it this time, the idea that they entered into a covenant with the Lord to not do this is such a big deal.

Now here's a quote from our prophet. Again, it's from his 2011 general conference talk. He was elder Nelson at the time, Sarge, will you read this for us please about what the prophet said about covenants.

[00:37:51] Steve Sargent: In legal language, a covenant generally denotes an agreement between two or more parties, but in a religious context, a covenant is much more significant.

It is a sacred promise with God. He fixes the terms. Each person may choose to accept those terms. If one accepts the terms of the covenant and obeys God's law, he or she receives the blessings associated with the covenant. We know that when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law on which it is predicated.

[00:38:22] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Okay. So let's take the covenant for a minute. Bracket off verses 15 through 18 and put to the outside covenant to bury swords. That's the Covenant. But let's read the blessing. So it says in this quote, there are blessings associated with the covenant. The blessings of the covenant are in verses 10 and 11 of Alma chapter 24.

So bracket that off and write blessings of the covenant. And then Sarge, will you please read for us versus 10 as you do, let's all underline all of the blessings that come from the covenant that they're about to make.

[00:38:57] Steve Sargent: Thank you. And I also thank my God, yea, my great God, that he hath granted unto us that we might repent of these things, and also that he hath forgiven us of those many sins and murders which we have committed, and taken away the guilt from our hearts through the merits of his son.

And now behold, my brethren, since it has been all that we could do as we were the most lost of all mankind to repent of our sins and the many murders which we have committed and to get God to take them away from our hearts, or it was all we could do to repent sufficiently before God that he would take away our stain.

[00:39:36] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Thank you. What stood out to you? What are the blessings of the covenant they're going to make?

[00:39:42] Steve Sargent: I think Steve references early earlier that their guilt was taken away and just taken back to like burdens that we carry in our lives. I've been on many a high adventure with young men and carried it back. 60 pound pack, 20 miles.

And when you take that pack off, it's an undescribable feeling of just the relief that you feel and how grateful you are to be relieved of the burden. And, uh, definitely the, the burden, the relieving the guilt or the, the guilt and the heaviness of the sins that they have committed through these murders and, and various sins is the great blessing that stands out from the two verses to me.

[00:40:21] Steve Zolman: Yeah, I mean, I, I, I, I agree with Sarge. I just, uh, I mean, when you, when. When they are describing themselves as the most lost of all mankind. Um, you know, we, we all know that, you know, you can't know light unless you know, darkness, you know, you can't know, um, sweet without bitter. And these guys had a perspective that was almost otherworldly because of just what a fallen state they were in and and.

And I think that, you know, there's so many of our youth and even I think us as adults, there's so much shame or, uh, so much resistance against, um, the embarrassment of mistakes. Yet, that's kind of why we're here and to think that. Those things that maybe we're holding onto that could be easily forgiven.

If we would just say the word, we could experience that same kind of relief. Maybe not because we used to murder people, but just because we need to get right with God and people are like, well, maybe I'm beyond help. And, um, and I think that the, these chapters really help us see that God's hand is reached out to all his children, his, his work and glory is to get you home.

It, it puts into perspective, whatever petty things we may deal with as humans today. Um, they're, they're worth asking for forgiveness and, and repenting continually so that you could be in a state of these. anti Nephi Lehi's who were absolutely on fire.

[00:41:57] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Wow. As you both were speaking, I kept thinking, it sounds like they know what they're talking about.

Like you have experience with this. Sarge, I know you do because you've been a bishop and as a bishop, I mean, if you were just speaking to anyone right now who wasn't quite sure, is it, does it work? Can I, cause they've already buried their swords, they've already been baptized as members of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints.

So the covenant's already been made. How can they then partake of the blessing? What's your advice?

[00:42:27] Steve Sargent: It absolutely works. I was at, ironically, just talking at the gym today when I've got a couple of friends and we, we had a mutual friend who in recent days, unfortunately, it's taken his own life and, and we were talking about.

The experiences that I had as a Bishop and just understanding that there's not a person on this planet that doesn't have some burden that they're bearing, that you might not be aware of. We have those members of the ward that we think are perfect and don't have any challenges that they face, but I know, and it's my testimony that everyone has the crosses that they're bearing.

Oftentimes in secret, but casting those cares on the savior is absolutely possible. He can lift those burdens for us and carry us the rest of the way. And no matter how far you've fallen, there's, there's no distance that is too far for the atonement to bridge that gap to bring us back home. And I have a sure testimony that I'm so grateful for it.

Uh, for the fact that I know I'll be with my family, that, uh, those relationships will endure.

[00:43:36] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Thank you. What about you, Steve? Anything you want to add to that?

[00:43:41] Steve Zolman: Yeah, I think there's Um, there's also an element of things that maybe people didn't sign up for where, um, you know, life happens and, and things happen that seem unbearable or beyond fair, like so unfair.

And so I think that there, there's just so much peace that I, I just struggle to think how anyone without the knowledge of Christ or the gospel, how would they deal with, you know, The early loss of a, a child or, you know, some, there just is a comfort that comes in these very deep, dark soul searching life happens type experiences that really, really endear you to the savior and what he went through so that we could have that burden lifted.

[00:44:33] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Thank you. Thank you to both of you. And I think that's also part of the, so what of this, because it's not, it's all about conversion. It's about covenant team, but then I like how this idea of covenants get you through it. And I think that's the whole purpose of why we make covenants. So in the next segment, we're going to talk about what it is about covenants for members of the church of Jesus Christ, Latter day Saints, and how they're different than any other church that makes covenants.

We'll do that next.

Segment 4

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[00:45:07] Tammy Uzelac Hall: So I did ask you guys to think about this question. I want to know your answer. How are the covenants that we as members of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints different? from covenants that other religious faiths make. And I had that thought when I was out walking the other day, like, how is it different?

[00:45:23] Steve Sargent: Well, I can comment briefly on this. We had a call with, we have a missionary Cooper Sargent. Who you've heard from before, who's serving in Guatemala. And we had a call with him the other week, and he was talking about a lady that they were teaching, um, and they were trying to get on date for baptism. But this individual had been baptized in the Catholic church.

So obviously she'd taken upon herself a covenant through the Catholic church. But the difference I think is that the. The true authority comes through the savior, Jesus Christ. And we can trace that, that line of authority back to the savior directly. And I don't know, you know, Cooper and his companion, I think in their delivery of that message causes a little bit of offense.

And so I would pose the question that, you know, how is it that we could deliver that to a, an investigator without causing offense, I guess.

[00:46:20] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Ooh, that's really good question

[00:46:22] Steve Sargent: to two returned missionaries.

[00:46:26] Tammy Uzelac Hall: There you go, Steve, what do you got?

[00:46:28] Steve Zolman: Yeah. Well, I, I mean, I think that, uh, in that given scenario, yeah, you have to, and I think with Catholics to just do to that being more of a tradition.

Um, yeah, I've had, I have some really close friends that are Catholic that it, you know, one in particular, he was like, You know, even, even if I were to join your church, I couldn't do it until both my parents were safely dead. As there's so much there, there's almost like this parental respect where, you know, it means a lot to them.

And I think that, you know, as we talk about the covenants and how they differ, it seems we spend a lot more time in different areas of our life, covenanting with God, and, and so we, we have temples, we have baptisms at an age where you can remember, and we, we have the priesthood, which is an opportunity to serve.

And so. There are other covenants that we believe also turn into power. And I think that the story of what we've been talking about with these amazing missionaries is they, their covenants showed that there was power when they spoke, utilizing those covenants that they had made with God. And so in a very tumultuous time, it is wonderful, especially with this push.

You can hardly get into the temples 'cause everybody is going. Yeah. It's just an incredible, everyone heard loud and clear what happened at conference because it's you, you gotta get on that computer and, and get a time because you can't just walk in anymore. And I think it's just a wonderful thing that when we can go in and renew these covenants, that there is in fact power and there's this connection with God that allows us a power that we otherwise wouldn't have without those two-way promises.

[00:48:18] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Perfection. And I didn't even set you guys up. I didn't even give you notes about what to answer for this. You did it completely on your own. It is exactly the right answer. So we're going to talk about this idea of covenants and here's what I want you to do. Get a piece of paper and a pen. And as I teach all of these different things, I just want you to write down thoughts that come into your mind.

Okay. You're just going to go with it, write down stuff. And I want to know what you write when we're done after I get done teaching this idea of covenants. Okay, here we go. You were absolutely right in our church. We have covenants. All religions have covenants and they all make promises with God. But in the LDS church, all covenants are associated with ordinances and each ordinance is performed by the priesthood power from God.

And that is the difference in our religion. We hear a lot about covenants and ordinances. And here's what we want to know. Every covenant we make is associated with an ordinance. And the two things are separate. For example, when we are baptized, we enter into our first covenant with Jesus Christ. We promise to take his name upon us, keep his commandments, always remember him and taking wording from Mosiah 18, we will mourn with those that mourn and comfort those who stand in need of comfort and to stand as witnesses of God at all times and in all things.

That is the covenant. Then next what we have is the ordinance. This is twofold. One who was ordained with priesthood power to perform the saving ordinance of baptism immerses you in the water and brings you up out of the water. And then here are the blessings we receive through the ordinance. When we keep the covenant of baptism, we will receive the gift of the Holy ghost.

And then taking the sacrament wording, we will always have his spirit to be with us. Now, for anybody that has not been to the temple lately, and Steve, I'm so glad you brought this up. If you have the ability to go today, get on and get a time to go to the temple because I recommend you go as soon as possible.

Everything we're talking about right now is in the endowment. 100 percent it is all about covenants and ordinances when you go to the temple. And I thought this was neat in what we read in verses 10 and 11, we read the blessing first, then we read the covenant that they're going to make. It's the same in the temple.

So when you go into the endowment to receive the gift, which is what the word endowment means, it means a gift and you go into the temple. The first thing you're going to do is the ordinance and the ordinance of the endowment is the initiatory, the washing and anointing and the receiving of the garment.

That's the ordinance. Then you go into the temple and you make all the covenants and these are on a website. We're going to put this in our link in our show notes. It's a church website and it tells us the covenants we make are the law of obedience, the law of sacrifice, the law of the gospel, the law of chastity, and the law of consecration.

You're going to make those covenants, but this is what blew my mind. You make all the covenants, but the blessings associated with these covenants are found. In the initiatory, if you go and listen to everything that happens in the initiatory, you don't make any covenants in the initiatory. It's strictly physical actions and priesthood power ordinances that then say, here's what you get.

If you keep all these covenants, including the garment. It blew my mind that the garment is the Lord, his way of saying, if you keep all these covenants, guess what I'm going to give you, I'm going to give you a garment to wear, and it's going to protect. And it's going to remind you of all these amazing covenants you're keeping.

And I'm just a match Adam and Eve, because we read in the book of Genesis, where the Lord, it says, God literally made. The garment for Adam and Eve, he made them and we learned last year that in Hebrew, the word garment is garment of light, not garment of skins. And so God says, I'm going to give you this garment of light to protect you and remind you of covenants.

And I'm sure Adam and Eve are like, this is the best. Thank you for that cool blessing because we're going to keep these covenants and you're going to protect us. I'm in. And I love that connection because so often we think. Uh, there's just this different idea of competence and how it associates. So go to the temple, do washings and anointings, do the ordinance part, and then go and sit in and listen to all the covenants that you make.

Now knowing all of this, let's read this quote by elder Russell M. Nelson again from his 2011 conference talk. And then I want to know your thoughts, you two. So here's a quote and Steve Zolman, will you please read this quote for us?

[00:52:58] Steve Zolman: When we realize that we are children of the covenant, we know who we are and what God expects of us.

His law is written in our hearts. He is our God and we are His people. Committed children of the covenant remain steadfast even in the midst of adversity. When the doctrine is deeply implanted in our hearts, even the sting of death is soothed and our spiritual stamina is strengthened.

[00:53:24] Tammy Uzelac Hall: I mean, that's just filled with blessings of keeping covenants as well.

But now talk to me then to you too, about this idea of covenants and ordinances and blessings. What'd you write down?

[00:53:34] Steve Zolman: Yeah, to me, it is, um, there's action. It, it isn't, it isn't just a verbal professing of one's faith or one's commitment. There's actual action and, and to be able to reiterate the roadmap as President Nelson is saying is, um, you know, we know what God expects of us.

I mean, how awesome is that to be? There, there seems to be so much like, I think I'm doing what I'm supposed to out in the world and, and, or, uh, this is what I'm learning in school. So I'll go with that. It's like heavenly father has created an opportunity for us to absolutely know what he expects of us.

And also know what we can expect of him. So to be able to say, I get a make here. I am sitting in my own little free agent chair. I get to decide. And in my decision, I get told what my upside is. And I get told what I have to do to have that upside. I mean, can I, could you make it? And then I just get to choose, do I want that or do I not?

And so I think it's wonderful that this part of this plan is our ability to choose the upside and or the downside. Knowing the outcome, knowing what's in store. Uh, I think that makes the gospel feel so complete is because it is a gospel of action. It isn't something you, you sit in a lazy boy and enjoy it.

You got to get up and do things. And when you do those things, there are for sure blessings.

[00:55:05] Tammy Uzelac Hall: I like how you kept saying a gospel of action. I could not agree more. A thousand percent all action, action, action, action. It's so awesome. I was a little struck to that. Sacrament is not a saving ordinance. It's a renewal of the baptismal saving ordinance.

So that was pretty cool. Every Sunday we get to renew the covenant that we make and remind us of the ordinance that we committed to when we were eight or whatever age it was when you were baptized. So thank you, Steve. Excellent comments.

[00:55:33] Steve Sargent: I had the very same feelings of Steve. I was actually taken back to our mission.

So serving in the South, you, you meet all kinds of individuals that undertook some variation of baptism or, or being saved. And, and they, they believed that upon this action or this ordinance. The work was done typically, and they believed that it would transform a person and cause them to change. But the, what you did after the fact really had no relevance to the rest of the process.

And, uh, you know, I gave it a lesson last week in elders quorum on elder douche, whose talk from April conference or on pillars and raise and, and. I think covenants is kind of just a series of individual choices that we have to make day to day to day. And with each one of those individual choices that we make, like with any, with, with any other goal we're trying to achieve, you get a little ray of, of the Holy ghost that incrementally bless you, uh, Just such a great measure and change your life.

[00:56:41] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Yeah. And in the temple, I mean, we say the new endowment, but the way they've worded it now and the art, it's just all centered on Christ and this and the raise. I mean, it's

so awesome. So get to the temple. As soon as any of you can plan to go there and kind of just be reminded of the covenants and then the initiatory that ordinance is so awesome, which can only be performed with priesthood power, which is how both of you started it out.

That's the difference is priesthood power. And now the amazing thing about this is Joseph Smith did not make this up. He didn't just decide, let's come up with covenants. It has always existed. And so in the next segment, I'm going to show you the first experience we have of wording about covenants. We'll do that next.

Segment 5

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[00:57:36] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Now, this is pretty cool. You guys, when I was studying about the word covenants, the word covenants is emphasized by this important fact, which is the word covenant is found 555 times in the standard works, almost as much as faith faith is 627 times. And the word repent is 628 times. So the word covenant must be very, very important.

There's a great article that you can read about this. And we're going to put the link in our show notes. If you want to go read what we're going to talk about. But in the old Testament, the English phrase making a covenant is most often a translation of a Hebrew phrase. And in Hebrew, making a covenant is actually Karat Berit.

And it's spelled K A R A T, like a carrot with a K and then Berit, B E R I T, which literally means in Hebrew to cut a covenant. Now that might seem a little bit weird, like why would we cut anything? But I thought this was kind of cool when you talk about In our modern day English, the phrase is to cut a deal.

Or to strike a bargain have everything to do with cutting an animal or striking an animal from old Testament verbiage in making covenants. I want to show you one of the first places we see this. So in your old Testament, turn to Genesis chapter 15 and we're going to look at verses seven through 21.

This is so fun. I love Hebrew. Okay. In Genesis chapter 15, this is where Abram, his name has not been changed yet. Abram has some words with the Lord. He's a little frustrated because he says, listen, you've told me I'm going to have children to outnumber the sands of the seashore. And you promised me all these wonderful, incredible blessings.

It has not happened yet. And in Genesis chapter 15 verse 2, I love Abram. He says to the Lord, listen, should I just give Eliezer who's my steward? Should I just give him everything after I die? Because I have no kids. So is that the plan? And I love how the Lord just says, look, I promised you in verse five, he says, I Tell the stars if they'll be able to number them.

And he said unto them, so shall thy seed be. I told you, you were going to have a lot of children. I told you, you were going to inherit your lands. I've promised you all these wonderful things. And so verse six, it says, and he meaning Abraham believed the Lord and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Okay. So he basically is like, all right, I'm in, I'm staying. I don't know how this is going to work because we're getting pretty old. Like they're in their nineties now, literal nineties, not even, that's like real people time. It's not, people always say, is that Bible time for 20? No, it's really old people.

And so they're a little bit concerned. So then what they do is then now Abram is going to enter into a covenant. So verses nine and 10, let's look at these and Sarge, can you read verses nine and 10 for us?

[01:00:23] Steve Sargent: And he said unto him, take me and heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtle dove, and a young pigeon.

And he took unto him all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid each piece one against the other. Another, but the birds divided. He not.

[01:00:45] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Okay. Now we don't mean divided, like separated them into groups. It's literally cut down the middle. He cut all of these animals into half and he laid those half portions.

One against another with sort of an aisle down the middle. Now, as he did this, this is. Absolute wording for making a covenant with the Lord. This is what they would do in scripture. So he lays them aside and as he's about, this is interesting as he's about to enter into this covenant with the Lord. Look at verse 12.

And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram and lo a horror of great darkness fell upon him. I mean, isn't that so true? Right before anyone makes a covenant or right after life tends to get hard, right?

[01:01:28] Steve Sargent: Oh, yeah. Absolutely.

[01:01:30] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Cause Satan knows you're about to make a covenant and he knows what covenant you're about to make.

So this great whore falls upon him and Abraham is having, or Abram is having this experience and he is praying that he'll be delivered. Wow. Sounds like Joseph Smith. Doesn't it? It's so cool. So then we get to this story then, and we're going to now go to verse 17. Here we go. 17 and 18 is what we want.

Steve Zolman. Can you read verse 17?

[01:01:55] Steve Zolman: Yeah, and it came to pass that when the sun went down and it was dark, behold, a smoking furnace and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.

[01:02:05] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Now, that sounds crazy, but this is again, covenant language that part of the covenant was when you cut the animal in half and separated it, then what the 2 parties would do who are making the covenant.

So if you had two men, two mortal men making a covenant, they'd cut the animal in half. They'd split it. They each get those halves. They would both walk in between as a formal, that's a formality of we've made this covenant with each other. They would pass between those pieces. But in this experience, it's the Lord who's passing between these pieces.

And then we get this wording in verse 18 in the same day, the Lord made a covenant highlight made a covenant in your scriptures. In Hebrew, it doesn't say made a covenant, it says . In that day, the Lord cut a covenant with Abram saying unto thy seed, have I given this land from the river of Egypt unto the Great river, the river Euphrates.

This is our first experience of cutting a covenant. It's always existed in scripture. Joseph Smith restored the idea of covenants, but we don't necessarily cut animals anymore. We don't cut anything, but we are asked to offer a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And in the law of Moses, now let's go back into Alma because there's Lamanites made their covenant and I want to show it to you.

So we're going to go back into Alma. And I want us to look at Alma chapter 25

and we're going to read verses 14 through 16 because another group of Lamanites now are going to bury their weapons. But then they include law of Moses wording. And in the law of Moses, they killed so many animals. And now, you know why? Because they were cutting covenants with the Lord. That's why every time they went to the temple, they had to bring an animal of sacrifice because the animal was a symbol of Jesus Christ, as well as we're cutting a covenant to remain faithful and loyal to our father.

So here we go. Verse 14 is when this new group of Lamanites who take on the name anti Nephi Lehi, then bury their weapons in the ground. And then verse 15 can you read those for us, please?

[01:04:17] Steve Sargent: And they did also bury their weapons of war, according as their brethren had. And they began to be a righteous people, and they did walk in the ways of the Lord, and did observe to keep his commandments and statutes, and his statutes.

Yea, they did keep the law of Moses, for it was expedient that they should keep the law of Moses as yet, for it was not all fulfilled. But notwithstanding the law of Moses, they did look forward to the coming of Christ, considering that the law of Moses was a type of his coming and believing that they must keep those outward performances until the time that he should be revealed unto them.

Now they did not suppose that salvation came by the law of Moses, but the law of Moses did serve to strengthen their faith in Christ. And thus they did retain a hope through faith unto eternal salvation. Relying upon the spirit of prophecy, which spake of those things to come.

[01:05:11] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Thank you. In verse 16 highlight, but the law of Moses did serve to strengthen their faith in Christ.

So the law of Moses is fulfilled, but we're still making covenants. We're still cutting covenants with the Lord. And I wanted to know from the two of you of all the covenants that we make, is there any aspect of it that strengthens your faith in Christ? Or is there a specific covenant that strengthens your faith in Christ?

[01:05:35] Steve Zolman: I mean, I think the culminating marriage covenant for me, I mean, you know, you, you, you start out as an eight year old or as a convert as kind of the beginning of your covenant making. Um, but ultimately the, the temple covenants then leading to, um, being married in the temple is kind of a crowning opportunity where you are under the watchful eye of those blessings now as a co creator with our heavenly father and, and to me.

Of all the impactful covenants I've made, that one seems to stand out because I couldn't get there without making the other ones, not saying one is more important than the other, but that, that one for me, um, certainly changed my life in a way that, uh, I couldn't have ever experienced this much joy any other way.

I mean, there's just, there's no other way to, to be able to have this much joy amongst. A tough life for, you know, tough experiences or whatever. There is so much solace in being able to look at your people and Sarge and I have gone through the last, my dad died two years ago. We just had a wonderful funeral for Sarge's mom, who I just adore.

Um, it's, it's being able to understand that that eternal covenant proceeds and goes beyond any of these bad news death experiences that we could have here on earth. So to me, that one, that one really kind of stands out to me just because of how much joy I've had over the last 25 years being married and, and being able to do the ups and downs of.

Child rearing and, and, and being parents and being a husband and working on myself, there's been so much progress when you're pre marriage, you hear about all the best institution is marriage. You know, there's so much to learn and you think you don't understand until you're in it, that the refining that happens when you make somebody else's needs more important than your own.

And then in family of children that you also need to put their needs before your own, it's, it really puts, gives you a different perspective that you could have no other way.

[01:07:53] Tammy Uzelac Hall: That was powerful and true. Thank you for sharing that about you, Sarge.

[01:08:00] Steve Sargent: I wish I could say I could represent a different one, but definitely I would echo what Steve has to say regarding the marriage covenant.

And it's interesting to me, looking back as a 24 year old, Little, you really understand about the marriage covenant and how much that has changed and evolved, you know, now that I'm double that age and I've had the experiences in the Riverview mirror, which just helped me to understand and appreciate so much the meaning of that covenant and.

Like the other covenants and what stood out to me throughout this lesson is, is how much, like Steve said, action is involved in the covenant. So we make that we have to continually, day after day, make those decisions that apply to the covenants so that we can enjoy the blessings that are associated with them.

And that's absolutely true of the marriage covenant as much or more than, than the others in my mind.

[01:08:54] Tammy Uzelac Hall: That idea of action is, for me, it's one of the most profound things because I have this conversation with a friend of mine. Her name is Sharon. Many of you listeners know you love Sharon Staples. Sharon is in her mid 80s and she's a regular guest and she's very insightful.

And I was talking to her about covenants and this specific lesson that we are going to be talking about. And I said, Sharon, here's the deal though, when we talk about covenants is like people leave the church all the time and life seems pretty good for them. People who break covenants, like it's. You just you think in your mind and that, oh, life's going to be so hard for them now.

No, they're doing pretty good. Life's great. Jobs. Great. They're making money. They have extra income. Now they're not paying typing. And I was kind of laughing about that, but then a little bit serious because I thought, do covenants really even matter? And I love her answer because then she says, well, people don't realize.

And the way she says it, if you guys knew her, she's very gruff. I love her. She goes, well, people don't realize is that life is like, it's a bootcamp. This whole thing, covenants, it's all bootcamp, the sit ups, the push ups, the rigorous late night runs with a backpack. It's all preparation for war or for when it really matters.

And covenants are part of this earthly bootcamp. You may not see the difference until it matters, which is probably won't be until the next life. We want the reward right now, but we all know the real reward is returning home to our heavenly parents.

[01:10:17] Steve Sargent: So good.

[01:10:18] Tammy Uzelac Hall: And, oh, that hit me because I thought covenants are hard.

I don't want to do pushups. There are times when covenants are like, this is really, and you guys even said the rigors of marriage, marriage covenant is hard. And it's supposed to be hard. It is boot camp for this life. And we might not see all the, we would not even might, we will not see all the blessings in this life, but we are promised them in the next life.

So then it had me thinking though, but when it comes to them, this idea that we're in boot camp right now, is there any possible way of finding joy in boot camp? I've never done boot camp, but it sounds awesome. Awful to me, like I'm out. And so in the next segment, we're going to ask that question. Is there joy in this bootcamp?

And we'll do that next.

Segment 6

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[01:11:11] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Ah, okay. Let me just ask you then. I've never done bootcamp. I mean, what do you guys think? Is there joy in bootcamp? Is there anything good that can come from bootcamp? Go ahead,

[01:11:20] Steve Sargent: Sarge. Well, I might be a weird one to ask on this because I, I love the bootcamp mentality and my kids are driven crazy by my constant challenges that I'm giving them and telling them to embrace the suck and that type of thing.

And Cooper, my missionary that I referenced earlier, actually probably shouldn't say this out loud, but he's having his first companion that he's kind of struggled with as a missionary. And, uh, After talking to him, I wrote him an email and tell, told him out how excited I was that he's having a difficult companion.

And Steve and I have talked about this and, and the blessings of a mission come through facing those challenges and, and, and overcoming those challenges. And, and Steve and I talked a few weeks about ago about how. Finding a way to love these elders, these missionaries that we serve with, and finding a way to, to help them and bring joy to their lives is really the blessing of a mission and teaches us how to be true disciples of Christ.

You can definitely have fun along the way, even in those struggles. And my mom was definitely a big example of this. I referenced, I had to speak at her funeral and talked about how much joy she had in her closing years when she was going through the most intense suffering that her cancer was bringing, but being surrounded by her grandkids and buoyed up and strengthened by them and, and bringing joy to their lives made her so happy and she wouldn't have.

Taking away that pain for one second to miss out on the blessings of the time she had of them.

[01:12:56] Tammy Uzelac Hall: That's true. I like how many times you referenced joy in your talk was so good Sarge. I'd loved being a part of that experience for your sweet mom. So thank you for sharing that. What about you Zolman?

[01:13:09] Steve Zolman: Well, I mean, I think I'm I fall along the same lines as Sarge that I think as the years go by You know, I can look back right now and say, okay, the hardest things that I've had to endure in my life up to this point created the most opportunity to feel joy, which is awfully odd.

Um, my, my sixth child was born with a dramatic birth defect that caused a lot of problems. And we found out in utero. So it was at our 20 week ultrasound when we were finding out if he was a boy or girl that. That that little inspection didn't go the way all the other 5 had gone and we had all our kids with us and we realized.

Within about 10 minutes that this was going to be a different visit, didn't realize how heavy it was going to be, but in meeting with all the specialists and figuring out just what we were kind of up against, we had a decision to make and you never think you're going to be faced with a medical professional telling you, you should just end a pregnancy because the child isn't viable.

So through, um, prayer and, and our own introspection, we said, well, we're in no position to make that decision. My wife's health wasn't in danger and our little boy, Adam, he needed to decide and we need to just do everything in our power to put them in the best position. And so that kind of started now, what has been a 10 year journey, he turns.

10, um, June 2nd. And, um, it, it was very interesting just having, uh, kind of this sideline. He, he, he was on, um, a heart lung bypass machine for almost 25 days. So there was this period of really touch and go where, you know, you're just hoping that one day your doctor will walk in and say he's gonna make it.

And we didn't get that for weeks. It was just like, you need to be here as much as possible. He is very, he's the sickest. Human in this hospital, and we were in florida. We moved the whole family to florida to find a specialist, but um, It was only a few years ago where we had we started a little charity called tiny hero to help Friends of our son who are dealing with the same birth defect that he had And my wife got up in front of everybody and you know being the husband To the mother, I mean, her exhaustive efforts to pump and to be by his side.

And I mean, you're just taken back in awe of all of what she went through and being in the medical community knows just how dire the situation was. She got up and was talking to some of our friends and donors and people who've kind of gotten behind us on this cause. And she said, you know, I never thought I would say this, but as I look back, um, I couldn't honestly say I wished anything were different.

I wouldn't have chosen a different path because of the people we've been able to meet and the experiences that we've been able to have as a family. God utilize this experience to bless all of us. And now we'd love being able to share that blessing with other families who are going through through the same thing.

And I just, you know, it's. I think one of the upsides that is hard for our human brains to understand is when things are the toughest is when we have to lean on our heavenly father, or we have to lean on our family, or we have to lean on those who are closest to us. And in those opportunities, we have a deeper meaning of those relationships because we're talking about something that is so much more important than what did you do at work today, our friends and our family became our rock, our support, and certainly our faith pulled us through that in all of that, we, we see that the joy of struggle.

Is getting on to the other side of it and being able to have a fresher perspective, just like the anti Nephi Lehigh's did, which is I've lived that way, I'm now living this way. And if you have to slaughter me as I kneel down in a field, and I'm in the very act of praying and thanking heavenly father for everything I've got, that's what I'm going to choose versus that other perspective I now have.

So. Um, so I think that I think that's one of the beautiful things in life is there with with every tragedy or every rough experience, um, when. Allowed God can turn it to thy gain. And I think it's a second Nephi two. Um, this was shared by an apostle to one of my best friends as he was going through something just indescribable.

It clearly states that in your struggle, there will be gained. Like God will create gain out of anything, any of your struggles. Actually, if you don't mind, I'll just read it. Um, Yeah, 2nd Nephi 2, it says, nevertheless, Jacob, my 1st born in the wilderness, thou knowest the greatness of God, and he shall consecrate thine afflictions for thy gain.

And, and it's just, uh, it's a quick reminder that everything we get to deal with and what we're experiencing here, there's upside there. It isn't all downside. And, and God knows what he's doing. And if we place our trust in him, we'll be able to see those benefits.

[01:18:30] Tammy Uzelac Hall: What a beautiful testimony. Thank you for sharing that.

And for both of you for sharing your thoughts on this idea, like, can there be joy in bootcamp? And you both perfectly were a witness to us that it can be. And the reason why I want us to think about this is in Alba chapters 23 through 29. As you read this over this week, grab a highlighter because the word joy appears over 24 times.

In these chapters, the most in any of the chapters we study this whole year, you have this concentrated joy. So here's what we're going to end with. Just turn to any one of those verses you mark that have the word joy in it, and let's just read. So when you get the verse, just start to read it because as we have learned, there is a lot of sadness at this time, a lot of death, so much death, and you're going to keep reading about it.

In fact, I remember reading 1 point in our story where there is so much death that it says you could hear the in Alma chapter 28. There was great morning and lamentation. In chapter 28 verse five, the cry of the widows mourning for their husbands and also father's mourning for their sons and the daughter for the brother.

I mean, so much sadness. You also get the story about how the missionaries, these young men talk about how when their hearts were depressed and they were about to turn back because the mission was harder than they thought it would be. That's Alma chapter 26 verse 27. You have depression and sadness about their mission and their experience.

And so through all of this story though, it is just beautifully peppered with joy. So just start reading some of your joy versus what do you got?

[01:20:07] Steve Zolman: Yeah. So one of my favorites is, uh, uh, is in line where we kind of earlier had discussed being an instrument in God's hand. Um, but, uh, this is Alma 26, 11. It says, but Ammon said unto him, I do not boast in my own strength nor in my own wisdom, but behold, my joy is full.

Oh, yay. My heart is brim with joy and I will rejoice in my God. So he says it twice. He's so, he's so pumped

[01:20:35] Tammy Uzelac Hall: he is, and he has every reason to be sad. Oh, so much heartache and sorrow. He has seen great verse. Keep going. What do you got Sarge?

[01:20:45] Steve Sargent: So in Alma 27, 19. It reads now the joy of Alma in meeting his brother and was truly great and also the joy of Aaron and of Omner and of, and him nigh and behold, their joy was not that to exceed their strength.

I just, this specific verse reminded me of the friendship with Steve and a cool thing about the friends we've referenced earlier tonight, we have a group of four families and So my sister also married my high school buddy, and so this is the group of four families that we've referenced earlier, and all four of us right now have missionaries serving.

To me, that's the most joyful experience I've had as a father is watching the change that comes upon my son as he serves the people of Guatemala or as Easton did with the people of St. George. And just to see the transformation that has come upon those boys. Steve's daughter is down in Chile and has had marvelous experiences and it's just so cool.

[01:21:49] Tammy Uzelac Hall: So cool. I love the spirit. It's so strong right now. So awesome. For those of you in your scriptures, In Alma 27, the verse that Steve, that Sarge read for us. Just put to the outside Alma 17. That's what it's referencing. Remember we read Alma 17, but we want to go back because he is telling us again about this moment they had.

And the word joy is here. Go to Alma chapter 17, verse two and verse two. It just makes me think of Sarge, you and all your buddies, you guys just talked about in your families. Um, because that's what he's talking about right here. The joy of finding his brethren and Sarge, we read that for us.

[01:22:27] Steve Sargent: Absolutely.

Now, these sons of Mosiah were with Alma at the time the angel first appeared unto him. Therefore, Alma did rejoice exceedingly to see his brethren, and what added more to his joy, they were still his brethren in the Lord. Yea, and they had waxed strong in the knowledge of the truth, for they were men of sound understanding, and they had searched the scriptures diligently, that they might know the word of God.

[01:22:57] Tammy Uzelac Hall: I mean, that is you guys. And the friendship that you just described, so much joy. Wow. So cool. You're feeling it. Aren't you Sarge?

[01:23:08] Steve Sargent: Yes,

[01:23:11] Tammy Uzelac Hall: this is so cool. Let's go back to Alma and here's my joy scripture Alma chapter 28 verse 14 I mean, there's still so many more joys, but this is the one I love is, and thus we see the great call of diligence of men to labor in the vineyard of, Oh, this goes perfectly for you to then what a great way to end.

And thus we see the great call of diligence of men to labor in the vineyards of the Lord. And thus we see the great reason of sorrow and also of rejoicing sorrow because of death and destruction among men and joy because of the light of Christ until life amen,

[01:23:49] Steve Zolman: amen

[01:23:51] Tammy Uzelac Hall: what a great discussion. Thank you. Thank you so much.

And thank you for ending our discussion with joy this whole summer. We're focusing on having it be a summer of joy. From James chapter one, verse two, with the idea to count it all joy when you find yourself in the midst of lots of trials and tribulations, or in other words, be happy when life's hard. But I think you both perfectly gave us a wonderful example in stories about how you're doing that.

So thank you. And we're just going to encourage everybody listening. To take some time and join us on Facebook and Instagram and share how you counted it joy in the middle of your trials and tribulations when life is so heavy. I mean, so much of this discussion today has been about that heaviness, but also that joy or right here at the light of Christ until life.

So thank you. You guys are awesome. That was such a good discussion. All right, so you really need to make sure you're joining us on Facebook or Instagram and share with us what you've learned. And then at the end of the week, we're going to ask a question that relates to this lesson. So comment on the post that relates to it and share your thoughts and talk to us about how you're finding joy.

You can get to both our Facebook and Instagram by going to the show notes for this episode on LDS, living. com slash Sunday on Monday and go there anyway, because it's where we're going to have links to all the references as well as a transcript of this whole discussion. So go check it out. Also in our show notes, we're going to have a couple of announcements that you are not going to want to miss.

Number one, you're going to find information about our August 24th Joy-bilee. So make sure you come to that because remember there's going to be cheese. I'm so excited to announce that I get to be a part of the magnify events. You're going to want to go to magnify the good. com and look for tickets for the Plano, Texas, September 14th, Phoenix, Arizona, September 21st and St. George, Utah, November 9th events, which are going to be so fun. So go check it out on these websites and make sure you look for it in our show notes. The Sunday on Monday study group is a Deseret bookshelf plus original brought to you by LDS living. It's written and hosted by me, Tammy use a lot call. And today our incredible study group participants were Steve Zolman and Steven Sargent.

And you can find more information about these friends at LDS living. com slash Sunday on Monday. Our podcast is produced by Cole Wissinger and me. It is edited and mixed by Cole Wissinger. And our executive producer is Erin Hallstrom. Thanks for being here. We'll see you next week. And please remember that you are God's favorite.