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[00:00:00] Tammy Uzelac Hall: You already know from last week's episode that I love a good story. So I am absolutely thrilled to introduce you to a pretty incredible story from Alma chapters eight through 12. It's just so good. In fact, it's so good that in the October, 2021 general conference, elder Christofferson shared this story that we're going to study today.

And this is what he said about it. Quote, our day is a replay. Of the Book of Mormon history in which charismatic figures pursue unrighteous dominion over others celebrate sexual license and promote accumulating wealth as the object of their existence, their philosophies, justifying committing a little sin, or even a lot of sin.

But none can offer redemption. That comes only through the blood of the lamb. Unquote. Now, how excited are we to study the story in Alma chapters eight through 12? And I can't wait to introduce you to my guests who are going to help me do this. Welcome to the Sunday on Monday study group, a Deseret Bookshelf plus original brought to you by LDS living, where we take the come follow me lesson for the week.

And we really dig into the scriptures together. I'm your host. Tammy Uzelac hall. If you're new to our study group, please follow the link in our description. And it's going to explain how you can best use this podcast to enhance your come follow me study. Just like my cute friend, Bailey Murray. Hi, Bailey.

Okay. Now here's the best thing about this podcast is each week I get to have two of my friends join me and we get to discuss the scriptures. And so this week I'm so excited to introduce you to a favorite, a fan. Here we go. Sharon staples is back. Hello, Sharon.

[00:01:40] Sharon Staples: Hello, Tammy, and hello out there, all you disciples.

It's exciting to be with you.

[00:01:45] Tammy Uzelac Hall: So exciting. And Sharon and I are really excited to introduce you to a new guest. She's never been on, but I've wanted to have her. And here we are. Her name is Heather B. Moore. Hello, Heather.

[00:01:57] Heather B. Moore: Hi, Tammy. Hi, Sharon. I'm really excited to be here today. So hopefully this will be worth your while.

[00:02:04] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Oh, I think so. I do. In fact, here's how I know it will be worth our while something very cool about Heather. You guys, she's an author. In fact, some of you are probably gasping because you've read her books and she does a beautiful job of writing. Um, I think my favorite genre of all books is historical fiction and that is what you just have like, that's your thing.

You're so good at it. And so when I thought of who can help us tell a story, who better than an author? I mean, this is going to be so much fun. So Heather, tell us a little bit more about yourself. I already told everybody you're an author. What else do you want us to know? Sure.

[00:02:37] Heather B. Moore: Well, I am, um, a grandma of one little boy who's almost three.

He's The love of my life is you probably know anyone out there as a grandparent as well. Um, I have four children, children. I live in Lehi, Utah. Uh, currently there are four cats and one dog and one bearded dragon residing in my home. So when I do write, I usually go to the library down the road.

[00:03:06] Tammy Uzelac Hall: That's really smart. I've never thought of that before. I told my husband, if I ever write anything again, I'm going to have to leave. Okay. Like, I need to just have a place of solitude, so I think I'm going to try the library. I love the library. I want to know who the bearded dragon is for.

[00:03:22] Heather B. Moore: Well, we're babysitting it for my son.

Cause he's, he lived, um, in one apartment and now he's switching places and his interim place. He can't have pets. So, but I, I have found out I'm not really a reptile lover, but this little guy we're buddies. Like I walk in there, we have them set up in the laundry room and a Big glass cage and I'll pet his head and he'll close his eyes and he likes, he likes me and my husband will walk in there and he'll hiss at my husband.

Oh no. So yeah, like he's become domesticated and apparently I'm the one in the family that can go in and feed them and pet him. Oh, then I wash my hands right after.

[00:04:04] Sharon Staples: How big is he? How long, how many inches long?

[00:04:07] Heather B. Moore: Thanks. He's probably about total, like with this tail, maybe, um, maybe 18 inches.

[00:04:14] Tammy Uzelac Hall: That's big. Yeah.

Well, listen, we're going to have to have you include a picture in your bio of this bearded dragon. Maybe a picture of the two of you. I think that'd be so awesome. So if anyone wants to know what Heather looks like and her bearded dragon. Well, go to our show notes and you're going to find her bio as well as Sharon's bio and you can find them at LDS living.

com slash Sunday on Monday. So everyone grabbed your scriptures and something to mark your scriptures with. And let's dig into the story found in Alma chapter eight through 12. Okay. You two, as you were studying, tell me first and foremost, what did the Holy ghost teach you from these chapters?

[00:04:52] Heather B. Moore: Well, for me, I thought it was really interesting when an Alma eight 15 after Alma is leaving Ammonihah.

It just Dejected and just feeling frustrated. And it even says that he's way down with sorrow. Um, and then he's visited by an, by an angel that says that he can lift up his head and rejoice and that he has great cause to rejoice for he has been faithful and keeping the commandments of God. And for some reason that just really hit me of.

All the times that I have felt like I am maybe talking to a blank wall or, or praying and maybe not getting the answers that I want in the tiny manner. I'm hoping for. Um, and this just really struck me in the spirit, just really comforted me that my work is not in vain, that I can rejoice even when. Um, maybe I feel like nothing is moving forward and what I'm doing is not making a difference.

[00:05:54] Sharon Staples: Great insight. Thank you.

[00:05:56] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Yeah. I'm wondering, do you feel that way as an author? Is that kind of where it's coming from?

[00:06:00] Heather B. Moore: Yeah. I think as an author, as a parent, um, maybe just sometimes, you know, a family member and, and trying to, you know, share, share something that's important to me and it just kind of falls flat.

[00:06:15] Tammy Uzelac Hall: That's a great example of that. Thank you for sharing that.

[00:06:19] Sharon Staples: Yes. Perfect. Okay. Um, two things for me that stand, stood out and one is Alma's, um, commitment to obedience and, you know, he, he, he, he'd been to the village, he'd been to Amulek, I guess is the name of the town. And they of course kicked him out and ran him off.

And he was, as Heather indicated, dejected and not feeling so great. And the Lord said, go back. And I thought, Oh, go back. You know, so his, his commitment to the Lord with the sense of obedience. And then, um, realizing that when we were all baptized, we received the Holy Ghost. And so we have it and we have access to it 24 seven.

And we don't have to, you know, fast and pray and say, Oh, I want the Holy Ghost to guide me. Because the Holy Ghost is already there. And, and throughout these, um, few verses, the chapters that we're going to study, he mentions the Holy Ghost more than once. Especially in chapter 8, verse 30, he's filled with the Holy Ghost and other places as well.

So the importance of obedience, for me, and the importance of knowing That at any given moment I can access and have the discernment of the Holy Ghost, because I was given it at baptism, that beautiful gift. And so it's, it's not an occasional thing. Having the Holy Ghost with us is not an occasional experience.

It's 24 seven. Accessing it. Is, you know, uh, maybe an individual experience at a given time and, and like Heather said, when you're downtrodden and discouraged and you think, what the goodness gracious am I doing here, then you can access the Holy Ghost immediately.

[00:08:22] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Well, I have a follow up question for you, Sharon, because I'm just thinking now, one of the things that we know about you, you are a convert and you were baptized.

How old were you? 18. 18. Okay. So I'm just wanting to know, because I got baptized at eight. I don't really know a significant difference in my life. I can't, there's not a marked moment where I was, got baptized and was like, Oh, now I have the Holy Ghost. Was it like that for you? Did you notice a difference between before and after receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost?

[00:08:51] Sharon Staples: Yes, but it took a while. It wasn't immediate. I mean, the, the exhilaration of having accepted the gospel was there. And that probably was partly, it was the Holy Ghost saying, yay, yay, yay inside my little body, which was little at that time. Anyway, you know, so I, I was able to, you know, experience that exhilaration, but it took quite a while to change my Earthly habits, you know, to, and to actually say, okay, you know, the Holy Ghost is, is there and you need to start shaping up and doing whatever.

So it was a gradual experience, but yes, it did come and stayed. Yeah. Oh, thank you.

[00:09:37] Tammy Uzelac Hall: I like that. Well, I like you said it was a gradual experience. Because for all of us, that gives us hope. Like, Oh yeah, it is gradual. And we learn when we learn how to recognize how the Holy ghost feels and how it speaks to us.

That's like a lifetime pursuit. So

[00:09:53] Heather B. Moore: yeah, I think that's key as well. Like what Sharon mentioned is, is recognizing that like you have it, but how do you access it? And that can be individual to all of us.

[00:10:02] Sharon Staples: Exactly.

[00:10:03] Heather B. Moore: So even when we're given the gift, we still need to learn how to access that.

[00:10:07] Sharon Staples: That's right. Yeah.

Definitely. So those, that's, those two things stood out for me in a, and, and also what Heather said about the trials and tribulations and, and, uh, overcoming them. I, I picked up on that too, Heather. So thank you for articulating it.

[00:10:22] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Yeah, definitely. I wrote to the outside of that verse, Heather, you, you have a lot to be happy about is what I felt like he was saying to him.

And I think sometimes I forget that. I get into that downtrodden and then the spirit's like, listen, you know, there's a lot of good going on. And like you said, and we're gonna tell that story. It was really hard. I can't wait. That's my, the part I get to tell in the next segment. And so you'll see how that verse plays into the story.

In fact, let's do that. Let's jump into Alma chapter eight in the next segment. And we're going to find out exactly what's going on when the angel told him, listen, you got a lot to be happy about. We'll do that next.

Segment 2

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[00:11:03] Tammy Uzelac Hall: All right, ladies, we get to tell the story in Alma chapter eight, all the way through 12, but specifically Alma chapter eight, I divided this chapter up between the three of us. And we're each going to take a part of it and tell this story and kind of share some of the things we learned. So I'm going to start in Alma chapter eight, verse one, here's where we are.

And this is picking up from last week's discussion. Alma is returning from the land of Gideon. And he taught the people and he established the order of the church there. He's feeling pretty good. Everything worked out well. He's heading back to Zarahemla. We are now in verse three in the 10th year of the reign of the judges.

So we're counting time by that. And then he goes into the land of Melik. And while he's there, he's teaching the gospel of Jesus Christ. He finishes teaching there. And then he travels three days journey that says it in verse six. And he goes to a city called Ammonihah. Now Ammonihah is going to be a little different experience for him than what he's had in Gideon and Melech.

Melech, Melech, however you want to say that. While he's in Ammonihah, look at verse nine. This really struck me. Verse nine says, now Satan had gotten a great hold upon the hearts of the people of the city of Ammonihah, therefore they would not hearken unto the words of Alma. Now knowing that going into this, we know it's going to be difficult.

But I like verse 10, nevertheless, Alma labored much in the spirit, wrestling with God in mighty prayer, that he would pour out his spirit upon the people who were in the city, that he would also grant that he might baptize them into repentance. We're just going to stop with that verse right there. Cause it's very reminisce of the story of Enos where Enos had a great wrestle and we've learned that that word, it can mean a lot of different things.

And right here, Alma is not necessarily repenting. I want to know from the two of you, what do you think this wrestle is about? Why would that word be used there when he's just praying that the spirit will be with other people?

[00:12:55] Heather B. Moore: I think that Alma, because so we know this is Alma, the younger. And he's gone through this huge change of repentance before.

And, but for him, not that this was necessarily an advantage, but he had an angel appear to him and then he lay as of dead for three days. So, and that's not going to happen to everybody. And he probably knows that, like he knows he, for some reason, he was given this amazing angelic experience where other people are going to have to dig into just kind of their faith a little more.

Um, So I think he feels a little bit responsible for some of this wickedness because he used to go around and he was destroying the church for many years. And so now for him, he knows he might be seen as a hypocrite. So I think he, I think he kind of wrestles with this, this guilt and this weight, this burden.

And so as he is. You know, the word choice is interesting is wrestling. I think he's still maybe kind of dealing with some of that weight.

[00:14:03] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Oh gosh, that's great insight. Absolutely. Yeah. I like that. Well, and, and going back to how we talked about the spirit to learning how that works and how it speaks to him and how, I mean, I just think that all rolls into this.

So for sharing that, Heather, that was very insightful. So he does wrestle. And then verse 11, the people hardened their hearts. They are not having it. In fact, I really liked the end of verse 11 because it kind of reminded me of when I was a kid. They're talking to him and they're saying, listen, we, we know who you are.

You're a high priest over the church. This is verse 11. You established it in many parts of the land according to your tradition. And we are not of my church and we do not believe in such foolish things. And then verse 12. And now we know that because we are not of my church, we know that thou has no power over us.

I love verse 12 because right there I am. I remembering me as a little kid saying to people, you're not in charge of me. You're not the boss of my body. You don't get to tell us what to do. And that's how they're reacting to him. They're just saying. Yeah, you don't get to come in and tell us how we're going to do things.

And so with this story, then. As he's having this experience, he's a little bit sad. He's feeling pretty dejected. And now I'm going to turn the time over to Heather. Hit it, Heather. She's going to tell us a story from verses 14 to 22.

[00:15:22] Heather B. Moore: I think it's interesting that one of their complaints, just going back to what Tammy said in verse four is, is they're saying, well, you gave up the chief judge.

And, and the, of course, the reason he gave it up is because Alma's sees that his a nation is falling apart and they're doing dwindling at unbelief. Um, but yet they're holding that against him because you, you gave up this, this basically being governor over us. We're not, we're not going to listen to the new governor, governor, and he's the one that lays down the law and we want to be, you know, and seen in a good light with him.

Um, anyway, so, so with 14, Oh, I forgot to say that the

[00:16:00] Tammy Uzelac Hall: people spit on him. Duh. Verse 13. Yeah. I forgot that part. They reviled him. They spit on him. That's how bad it is. Okay. Now go get Heather. I forgot. That's the worst.

[00:16:11] Heather B. Moore: which, which I think no matter where you are in life, that's got to be devastating. Um, just as being an author, sometimes I get a lot of public reviews, uh, people that don't like my work and criticize it. And even if I have a hundred people that love a story I've written, that one voice, that one dissenting criticism, it, it's, it's devastating. It hurts. And so I think that, um, Alma is really feeling that. And of course, in verse 14, he says, he's weighed down with sorrow, waiting through much tribulation and English of soul.

Um, because, because he, he's been here, he's been, he's lived a wicked life. He's gone through repentance. He's, He's he fills the spirit. He knows there's so much more joy and happiness and peace that could be had. And I think he truly loves these people. You know, I think any time, especially when we're given a leadership position, whether being a primary teacher or being a release society president is you have that mantle placed on you and you, you literally love the people you're working with.

You're serving and you only want the best for them. Um, and then an angel appears to Alma, the end of verse 14. And I love the verse 15, which I referenced a little earlier. Blessed art thou Alma, therefore lift up thy head and rejoice. And this is the opposite of course, of what What he's feeling for thou has great cause to rejoice for thou has been faithful in keeping the commandments of God from the time, which thou receive us, thy first message from him.

Behold, I am he that delivered it unto you. So I was like, Oh wow, this is the same angel. This is like kind of little reunion here going on. And then we go to, um, verse 18 when it said that. After Alma receives this message, um, he returns speedily to the land of Ammonihah. So he has this renewed energy, this renewed commitment.

He goes there straight away. He probably misses out on some sleep or, or hunting an animal to have a good meal.

[00:18:16] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Oh, I've never considered that before, Heather. I like that you actually later, it does say he was fasting. So that's true. He was pretty hungry. I like the human side of this story too, because in verse 13, after he gets spit on that, he's like, I'm out of here.

And he actually tries to leave and go towards the city of Aaron. And so for me, I, I connect with that cause I would absolutely do that. I'm done. I'm leaving this place. Well, yeah.

[00:18:39] Heather B. Moore: And yeah, I mean, you, you tried to give it your best effort and how much abuse are you supposed to take? Right. So he's kind of doing the self preservation thing too.

[00:18:50] Tammy Uzelac Hall: And it would have taken a visit from an angel to say, Hey, remember me, I'm the same guy.

[00:18:54] Heather B. Moore: I don't know if this is just an Alma thing, but it seems like he kind of, he kind of needs that stronger hand sometimes he has that stubborn, stubborn personality. So the angels like I'm back

[00:19:07] Tammy Uzelac Hall: now, go back to Ammonihah, oh, that's great. Thank you. Okay. Keep going. This is so good.

[00:19:13] Heather B. Moore: Another part I, so this is interesting to me, this really stuck out to me in verse 18, because so he speedily returns, but he enters the city another way. And I thought, okay, so he's going in, um, a different through a different border through a different part of the city, but I also took it personally thinking.

When, when are times when I have been prompted to do something and I hit a wall, but yeah, I feel like I still need to do that. The Lord or the spirit has testified, you know, you need to do this for your child or you need to do this, um, you know, something going on in your neighborhood or your ward. And I need to find another way because the first way I tried did not work.

And so, so, Alma knows he has to go into another way. So he, so he's listening to the spirit. He's trying to figure out a better way to do what he's been called to do. Um, so in verse 19, he enters a city and he was hungry. So is he fasting? Is he fasting? Because he He wants to hopefully get his message across, or is he fasting?

Cause he didn't take time to eat and hunt. Cause that all takes time, right? Prepare the food, roast the meat, all that stuff. Um, but he's very hungry and I don't know about you, but when I get hungry, I get hangry. And I just get a little bit, a little bit grouchy. And then when I eat, I think, Oh my gosh, I have like three people to apologize to.

This was fast Sunday. And, and this is a few years ago. Um, I was teaching Sunday school and when I showed up, it was fine. I had my lesson ready and I found out. It was, I can't remember if it was a holiday weekend or just kind of one of those weird summer weeks where everybody's out of town. And so this lady comes in who taught another class and she's like, is it okay if you just take all the classes today?

There's only ended up being like 25 kids, but it's fine. Um, and I remember I just said to her, I said, well, I don't mind teaching everybody, but I would have liked some notice. And she kind of just apologized and she She went and did something else. Um, you know, so, and I remember just feeling like, why did I say that?

So after church, I text her, I said, I'm so sorry. I said, I came home and I, I felt guilty, but I felt like justified. Right. In my little sure. I remember texting her and saying, I am so, so sorry. I was fasting and I just get grouchy when I fast and I took it out on you. And she was very sweet about it. But I just thought sometimes I just say it, do something.

And I think, wait a minute. I think I'm just hungry. . .

[00:21:52] Tammy Uzelac Hall: I am so guilty of that, by the way. That's absolutely me. Yes. But not just on fast Sunday, any given day, right.

[00:21:59] Heather B. Moore: If I'm hungry, any given time when you just, yes. Um, but so back to Alma. So, so I, I just imagine just feeling that hunger, that hunger, that weakness, um, and all and all.

Um, also when I fast, you know, I also feel a lot more humble, um, in a lot of ways. And so he, he meets, he meets a man, which if you're just reading Alma's point of view, it sounds very, very random, but later on we'll, we'll hear, um, you like Spongebob, which is really interesting. We don't always get to hear both sides of the story. And so here we hear Alma's point of view is, um, Amulek Hussein, I am a Nephite, and I know that thou art a holy prophet of God, for thou art the man whom an angel said in a vision, thou shalt receive. And so this is really remarkable because this angel has been doing his, doing his job, right?

[00:22:53] Sharon Staples: He's very busy.

[00:22:55] Heather B. Moore: He's setting this up. And then later we find out the background of Amulek. So we find out how remarkable this really is because Amulek is not a faithful follower of Christ. And so, so then Amulek takes him to his home, he gives him food and it ends up being that, um, that Amulek stays in this home and he ends up blessing and sharing the gospel.

And this ends up blessing Amulek's entire family. So we re reread that in verse 22 and he says, and he blessed Amulek in his house and he gave thanks unto God. And later we learned that it's blessing his women, his children, and everyone that is in his household. So it's kind of a special moment.

[00:23:37] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Oh, absolutely.

[00:23:38] Sharon Staples: Yeah. And it's interesting that, um, that the angel appeared, you know, to both of them. He prepared, he prepared Amulek for what was to come, and he also prepared Alma for what was to come. And I think sometimes I miss the boat and not realize that Well, I'm doing this. Why am I doing this? And then I think, well, you're, you're, you're getting prepared, you know, why am I learning this language or why am I going on a mission or why am I doing?

And it's in preparation for that, which is to come that maybe perhaps I can pass a blessing onto someone else. So I can't, I have to pay attention to what's going on. The preparation time, not just the moment. I have to have to be aware of my fasting and I'm being hungry and I'm doing this and this and this and this.

It's all preparation. You know, it's not the end all do all that. This is it. Um, think of like president Nelson says, think celestial. You have to think beyond the mark, um, about what's to come. So, you know, and the Lord is in the details, he knows why I have to do this. He knows why this is coming my way. And I just have to trust that down the pike a little bit, maybe not in this life, but even in the eternities, that my preparation now will serve me well in order to serve others.

And that's what Amulek and Alma are doing. They're getting prepared for serving the people in Ammonihah and Mulek and all those other places. So, the importance of preparation.

[00:25:11] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Oh, Sharon, that was great insight. Thank you for sharing that. In fact, finish the story for us. What happens after this?

[00:25:18] Sharon Staples: First of all, I think the conversion of Amulek to being a preacher is amazing because he's a man of wealth and importance.

You know, he's more in the secular world than he is the spiritual world. An angel said, no more buddy. You, I need you. So you need to shape up. So, so he, you know, he gets the visitation from the angel and then Alamo and Amulek hook up and, um, they become a great missionary team. And not only that, but in the previous verses that Heather read, he, he went quickly.

He didn't say, Oh, I'll do that on Saturday. No, I don't know. You know, he didn't, he went quickly. The Lord called him. There was an angel. He said, go do this. And Alma said, okay, I'm on it. And he, he did it quickly. He didn't wait for another prompting. You know, he didn't wait for, for somebody to give him approval.

He didn't wait. He just did it. And, uh, I think that says something about his character.

[00:26:15] Tammy Uzelac Hall: I went back to that verse, verse 18 and mark that word, Sharon speedily. He went speedily. I'm so grateful you brought that up. Yeah. That's a lesson right there. Oh, speedily.

[00:26:26] Sharon Staples: And he returned speedily to the land of Ammonihah.

And then Heather mentioned that he, he came another way. So we have to, we have to think outside the box sometimes folks. You know, and then and go from there. Um, and then, um, just a few notes that I took about all of those chapters. Um, he, he was with Amulek several days so that he rested. I mean, he'd been fasting and, uh, he was tired and hungry and, and so he needed, and he stayed with Amulek a few days.

I think, I can't remember what it says. He fasted and prayed many days and then he rested with Amulek those few days. Then in verse 29, And the word came to Amos saying, go. And again, in the second line, go, um, and tell these people to repent and do all those things. So they testify. Of the truthfulness of his words because of the spirit of the Lord manifested truth unto him.

And the, the message that I got here was that when they use the power of the priesthood, um, and they did that many times, even to escape prison and to escape the people spitting on them and to escape, they're throwing things at them. They, they didn't use it, you know, you know, 24 seven, they used it to the Lord's power, not their own, but the Lord's power.

And, um, I think for priesthood bearers, that's a good message that, you know, you don't tell your wife, you're going to do this because I hold the priesthood. I mean, you know, you, you use your power to enhance, The existence of the Savior, the power of the Savior, the blessings of the Savior. You only use that power to demonstrate his influence, not yours.

It's not about you. It's not about, wasn't about Amulek. It wasn't about Alma. It was about the Savior. And so I, that to me, that was impressive. Wow. Sharon. And then Amulek is told that he has to preach the gospel in verses 28 through 32. And they're both filled with the Holy Ghost and they could not be jailed, nor could they be slain.

Um, and they show their power only when necessary.

[00:28:47] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Thank you, Sharon. Oh my goodness. That was a great discussion. Thank you to both of you for teaching us from Alma chapter eight. Okay. So Sharon, one of the things I love you said was we need to use our power to enhance the existence of the savior. And you even.

told us that every time we go to the temple, we receive power. So every one of us listening, I thought that was powerful that every one of us has priesthood power to enhance the existence of the savior. So in the next segment, we're going to see this continue with Alma and Amulek and how they use the power they've been given to enhance the savior's existence.

And we'll do that next.

Segment 3

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[00:29:32] Tammy Uzelac Hall: We are in Alma chapter 9, and I've asked Sharon to please teach us what Alma had to say to these people, because here they go. It's now his chance. In fact, if you look at Alma chapter 9, above the section heading, we have a little blurb. It says the words of Alma and also the words of Amulek. Which were declared unto the people who were in the land of Amman.

Aha. And also they are cast into prison and delivered by the miraculous power of God, which was in them, according to the record of Alma. Oh, by the way, I shouldn't have said it was a little blurb. That's scripture. All the stuff in italics was written later by the Book of Mormon Bible Committee. So. It is scripture telling us, okay, here we go.

We are now going to dive into the words that they spoke. So Sharon, tell us what happens in Alma chapter nine.

[00:30:19] Sharon Staples: So most of my information comes from other people's books, you know, like Vieta and his study guide to the Book of Mormon and material out of, um, Maxwell Institute. So these are, this is not my brilliance shining forth.

It's the brilliance of those people whom I. plagiarized. So first of all, in verses one through 13, he commands the people of Ammonihah to repent. People of Ammonihah knew the law well enough to dismiss Alma's preaching. And if you'll go to Deuteronomy chapter 19, verse 15, it says, and I don't have that right now, but it says in there that in the mouth of one witness, you can dismiss What that person has to say.

Maybe you could read that to Tammy. Do you have that? Yeah, I'd love to. So Deuteronomy chapter 19 verse 15.

[00:31:18] Tammy Uzelac Hall: It says this. I love a cross reference. One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity or for any sin in any sin that he sinneth. At the mouth of two witnesses or at the mouth of three witnesses shall the matter be established.

So this is important throughout the whole book of Mormon. It's called the law of witnesses and they adhere to this. And so that's why we want to know this verse of scripture. In fact, what, where can we put this cross reference, Sharon, what did you give us?

[00:31:50] Sharon Staples: It's, um, verse chapter nine verses two and verse six.

Um, they, they knew the law well enough to use it against Alma as Moses has taught one witness shall not rise up against another like the one you just read. So they said, we're not going to believe you because you're just one man. Who are you? These were learned men of the law who were countering what Alma was preaching, and they stood forth to lay their hands on him, but they couldn't because he was able to escape.

So they were saying, we don't have to believe you because there's only one of you and we need two or three witnesses. So you know, Nana, Nana, Nana, that was what they were saying to Alma and Amulek. Well it didn't work. Nope. Okay. And then in verses eight through 11. This is, this is wonderful. In verse 8, the word forgotten is used twice.

In verse 9, the word remember is used twice. In verse 10, the word forgotten is used. He is, Alma is reminding them. Like in verse 8. How have you forgotten the tradition of your fathers? How soon ye have forgotten the commandments of God? Do you not remember that our father Lehi was brought out of Jerusalem?

Do you not remember that they were all And I looked at that and I thought That's why I have to go to church every Sunday. That's why I have to renew my covenants by partaking of the sacrament, to remember the blessings that I have, for being a member of the church, for being baptized, for making temple covenants.

I need to be reminded, and the Lord knows that each of us needs to be reminded, on a constant basis. To not forget the blessings and especially Heather, your understanding and your, your explanation about the tribulation and the trials and what we have to do and the, but in order to overcome those trials and those tribulations, we need to remember.

What we have, not what we don't have. We need to remember the blessings, not the quote curses, which aren't really curses, but they're for our learning. So I was impressed with eight, nine, and 10, the need to remember the need to not forget. from whence our blessings come. Okay, and then let's go down to verse, um, Uh, let's try verse 13.

And, and I'm gonna read that, and it's another remember. Behold, do you not remember the words which he spake unto Lehi, saying that inasmuch as ye shall keep my commandments, ye shall prosper in the land. And then the opposite of that, Which is a Hebraism, and again, it is said that inasmuch as you will not keep my commandments, Yeshiva cut off from the presence of the Lord.

Now, um, Brother Don Perry, who is a master at Hebraisms, and he wrote the book, uh, Preserved in Translation. He talks about these Hebraisms. Well, the prophet Joseph Smith wouldn't know a Hebraism from a Carmelita rough gut. He, I mean, he didn't, he would not be able to identify a Hebraism, but it's a typical ancient scriptural reference of how they wrote.

They wrote in those days, in the Book of Mormon days, Hebraisms. And it's, and these Hebraisms are found throughout the Book of Mormon. This is just one example. And so, um, first it was, If you keep my commandments, this will happen. But if you don't keep my commandments, this will happen. And that's called an antithetical parallelism.

And that's big words for whatever. But if you're interested, I mean, Dr. Perry's book is very good. And not only that, but he has, um, written profusely, like Heather has written profusely, kind of genres. Okay. Um, let's see. The reason that the people of Ammonihah were so hard hearted and they would not listen to Amulek and Alma is they were not taught.

They were ignorant because they were not taught by their parents or their parents parents. So, it, it's important for, for me, it said, be a good parent. Teach your children the gospel. Don't rely on sister so and so in primary or sister or brother so and so in Sunday school or brother so and so in seminary.

Teach your children the gospel. And so they were ignorant and because they were ignorant, they became hard hearted. So knowledge is power. Knowledge is a blessing. Teaching our children the correct principles is essential. It's mandatory. It's, it's crucial that we show them, not only teach them, that we show them.

So these, this chapter is just filled with things I need to do. I need to remember, I need to have a good, they had a mindset and unfortunately, um, that mindset did not bode well for them and for Alma's preaching and Amulek's preaching. So an important chapter, I think, significant chapter for my learning.

[00:37:29] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Oh, definitely, definitely sharing. You did a wonderful job of giving us some really key elements and points from this chapter that we need to know before we can get into Alma chapter 10. And so, as you said, Alma's teaching, he's preaching to the people. They're very hardhearted. In fact, they're so hardhearted.

Verse 31 struck me where it says the people were Roth. He's saying that to them. They were Roth with me because I said unto them that they were a hard hearted and a stiff necked people and absolutely they did not like him. And so then we get into verse 34. It came to pass that Amulek went and stood forth and began to preach unto them.

And now the words of Amulek are not all written. Nevertheless, a part of his words are written in this book. And so in the next segment, we're going to find out what his words were by our friend Heather. We'll do that next.

Segment 4

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[00:38:26] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Okay. So Heather, I wanted you to teach us from Alma chapter 10, because as an author, I just wanted to know what makes the voice of Amulek different from the voice of Alma. And what did Amulek teach us? That's important to know. I mean, I don't know. I just thought it'd be so cool to have you just talk us through this idea.

Is it such good writing?

[00:38:47] Heather B. Moore: Oh, I love it. I, it's very interesting that you would bring up the point of kind of the different voices between Alma and Amulek. Um, Alma is, is very, I mean, he, he's been doing this for a long time and he's been teaching and he's, he's been a chief judge. He's been a high priest.

And so he's used to being In front of people and large crowds used to teaching the gospel were, of course, this is his 1st time. Um, so you see, I mean, like, kind of with a little bit more of a quiet approach, but then I'm like, is not 1 to back down either. I feel like he's, he's trying to, like, connect to the people and saying, Hey.

You know, I'm one of you in verse two and three, he talks about his lineage, how he is the son of, um, Gidana. I don't have to say that Gidona, um, who's the son of Ishmael, who's a descendant of Amenadie. Um, and we hear a little blurb about this amazing person named Amenadie, who was able to interpret.

Writing on the wall of the temple that was written by the finger of God. And then he was a descendant of Nephi. Who's a son of Lehi, who came out of Jerusalem, of course. And then he ties that into being a descendant of Joseph who was sold into Egypt. And so I feel like I mean, like in his writing, he's, he's always his speaking.

He's trying to connect to the people and also remind the people of we're descendants of Nephi and Lehi. We have this huge legacy that we are basically, um, turning away from. And so he's appealing as well to the hearts, not only saying I'm one of you, but let's, you know, let's work on this together. Um, of course, in verse four, we learned that he is a, Also, a man of no small reputation.

So most of the people he's talking about know him, of course, judges and lawyers know him. If he does business, he probably has contracts and, and agreements in place as far as his industry goes. And so this is something to consider too, is. Is if he really gets kicked out of the city or really gets turned against that would affect his entire business and his industry.

Um, but he's willing to risk it because he knows his message is more important than anything that is of worldly nature. And the other thing too, is in verse five, he, he does admit that he knows much of the ways of the Lord. So whether in his youth, um, maybe it sounds like maybe his parents have at least taught him The scriptures and the teachings of the Lord, even though he has rebelled against it.

Um, and so he does know the mysteries and the marvelous power of the Lord. He has just been in denial because he also says that, um, he in verse six, I did heart in my heart, but I was called many times and I would not hear. So this kind of stopped me. Cause I thought, How many times have I been called? Um, I think Sharon brought up of maybe the spirit prompting us, but yet we think, well, I don't have time today or I'll do that when I see her on Sunday.

You know, so this is, I'm like admitting the many times he's been called, which probably touches the heart of some of the people listening to him because they have probably experienced that too. They've experienced whisperings of the spirit that get quieter and quieter because they're not listening and they're not, they're not accessing that spirit that they've, they've had.

I mean, some of these people have probably been baptized. They may have covenanted especially when King Mosiah was still King. It's only been 10 years. Uh, the reign of the judges. And so it's only been 10 years since King Mosiah has died. And so many of these people still remember King Mosiah and he was a righteous King and the kingdom was more united in the gospel back then.

[00:42:57] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Yeah.

[00:42:58] Heather B. Moore: And then we go on to verse seven. This is where we start to hear Amulek's point of view. Of when he was visited by the angel. Um, like I mentioned before that we heard Alma's point of view. So it's kind of fun to hear both points of view and where, and so he, he shares this with the people. He says, I was going about my business, just like all of you were today.

And all of a sudden an angel came. And told me to return home and that I am to feed a prophet of the Lord. Yeah, a holy man who was chosen of God for his fasted many days because of the sins of this people. And so this also kind of struck me too. Is Alma is fasting for this specific group of people and Ammoniha, um, and that, so Amulek is obviously instructed that he'll receive him into thy house and feed him.

And he shall bless the, and thy house and the blessing of the Lord shall rest upon thee and thy house. So it's not only Amulek that's being blessed, which is wonderful, but it's also, um, all the people that he loves. Tell me about that. Heather. Well, I, I think, I think in my life personally, I think, yeah, I mean, I want blessings.

Yeah. Cause I'm not going to turn them away, but I, I really want blessings for those that are near and dear to me. And of course, you know, everyone, but when I see maybe a son or daughter or a family member receive good news or, or be touched by the spirit, I feel like it fills me up even more so than having that experience myself.

[00:44:37] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Mm. And as you were speaking about that, what's so beautiful for me about this story is the blessings come because they're doing what they were asked to do. And even though they didn't want to, and I like how we brought in that word speedily, but Alma at first was like, I don't want to do this. And even Amulek, he just uses such regular people in that.

I feel like many of us are like the Amuleks and the almas and when we just sometimes do what we're asked to do, even though it doesn't, because throughout this whole conversation as you both have been talking in my mind, I am thinking, well, yeah, when the spirit speaks to me, I'll do it, but I got to check my calendar first.

That is my go right now. That is my life. Where am I? How busy am I? Oh, I'm sorry. I've got something on that night. I'm sorry. the last couple of weeks of my life have been so busy. I actually wrote them in my journal the other night cause I don't want to forget how busy I was because I don't ever want to be that busy again.

I wrote in my journal, don't ever do this again. And so I wonder if I would have missed all the, I wonder. If I keep living my life that way, if I'll miss these angelic moments that Sharon pointed out, and I'm going to miss out on blessings I could receive because I just kept myself too busy. Sharon knows that Sharon always warns me, you're too busy.

You've got to like, and so I'm really heating Sharon's words because there's just this beautiful moment. And Heather, I felt it when you read those verses about how maybe sometimes you just have to sit. And breathe, let the angels visit us, let the spirit speak to us so that we can just do what we're asked to do.

And then the blessings come to those we love, not just ourselves, Heather. I like how you, that really struck me when you read that. So thank you.

[00:46:18] Heather B. Moore: Yeah. And I think, um, verse 11, so we're in Alma 10, 11, that that's definitely a verse. It's a good verse to mark because this is really Amulek testifying of how, how much he's already been blessed.

Like just from the, and it's only been a few days, it's been maybe three or four days since he's had this visit from the angel and he's saying, um, Alma have blessed mine house. He blessed me and my women and my children and my father. And my kinsfolk, um, and he said, even all my kindred have been blessed.

So I just thought, you know, when, when one person, and in this case, Amulek, changes his heart. Look at all of these people that have been affected.

[00:47:08] Sharon Staples: Hmm. Yeah, you can almost read into that the Abrahamic covenant and blessings it's, they're still coming down. I mean, we can't ignore how Abraham got things started and the Abrahamic covenant and the Abrahamic blessings and, and, um, Amalek is receiving those.

[00:47:29] Heather B. Moore: Yeah. And I, I also thought it was interesting in a verse. Um, 12. So when Amulek has spoken these words, the people began to be astonished, seeing there was more than one witness who testified of the things where they were accused. So this is going back to the Deuteronomy scripture that Sharon shared, that now we have two witnesses, but the word astonished to me, think makes me think.

Some of these people, their hearts are being softened. Their minds are being changed. And they're like, wait a minute, you know, this has value. I need to listen. And then of course, once that happens, um, the very next first, nevertheless, there are some among them who thought to question them and that by their cunning devices, they might catch them in their words.

So it just reminds me of sometimes maybe I'm preparing a lesson or I get into A scripture rabbit hole and I go online and I Google something or I look up something and all of a sudden I see dissenting voices. So I might even be feeling the spirit and then I click on something or I read a comment and I'm like, Oh, that's a good comment.

And all of a sudden that spirit starts to fade because this dissenting voice is immediately jumping on top of what I was just opening my heart to. So I feel like this is kind of happening. It is a few people are opening their heart, but yet there's the voice of the majority is, is still very critical and still very vocal.

Um, and of course we learned in verse 14 that, well, 13 and 14, that there's men who sought to destroy them who are lawyers and they're in charge of the law and make sure, making sure the law is, is going according to plan. And so they're using anything that Amulek says against him. And so they're looking for things to nitpick and, um, and we learned in verse 15 that these lawyers.

Are learning all the arts of cunning of the people. And this is so that they can be very skilled in the profession. And this is obviously how they make a living and make, make their own money and pay their own bills is by having court cases and getting people sent to prison. Um, so, so in verse 16, so they questioned, they began to question Amulek so that they can cross him in his words and contradict anything that he says.

But of course, in verse seven, to me, you learn that they didn't know yet that Amulek knew that this was going to happen. And so they begin to question him and he perceives their thoughts. Obviously the spirit is working in Amulek, um, and he's prepared. And this is kind of when I feel like the voice of Amulek, not necessarily, um, his character doesn't change, but he is now kind of taking on that role of, of what Alma has been preparing for.

And then taking on is he is now going to lay it all out. He's not, he's not the friendly, Hey, you guys know me, you know, we're all descended from, from Nephi and Lehi. And we all work together. You know, we've done business together. We've made money together. We've been successful together. Now in verse 17, Amulek just lays it on the line.

Oh, you wicked and perverse generations. We, we lawyers and hypocrites for you are laying the foundations of the devil for you are laying traps and snares to catch the Holy ones of God. So he is just saying, I am not here to be your best friend. I am here as a representative of the Lord and we need to change or we're going to be destroyed.

And so I feel like. I feel like Amulek really takes on the mantle at this point. You know, how, how you might have a leader in our wards and, and they're just super, super nice. But when they get up there to teach that lesson or share that message that the spirit has told them to share, they're being serious and they're being genuine and they're doing out of love, but they're also being firm.

[00:51:36] Sharon Staples: Let me comment, uh, Heather, if I can right now on the law, of course, they're lawyers. And so they're concerned with the law and every iota of the law. And they don't mention the spirit at all. And I remember one time in the temple, um, I went to one of the, the assistant matrons and said, such and such, this is what's happening, you know, and it's, it's not the protocol of the temple.

And so this person in this event is not going like the way the temple should be going in the order that it should be going. And she just looked at me and she said, Let the spirit decide. And that's all she said. Yeah. Follow the spirit, follow the spirit, Sharon. So I went back to the situation and looked at the problem and to follow the spirit was outside the order of the temple, outside of the protocol, but the blessings that accrued because of that one little, let the spirit decide, let the spirit provide here.

And so I think what you're saying, they, they're not anywhere near the spirit there. I mean, that's not even in their vocabulary,

[00:52:44] Tammy Uzelac Hall: right? Yeah. Well, this is such a good conversation and I want to continue this. So what we'll do is in the next segment, we're actually going to look and experience where the law or a lawyer is going to try and trick Alma and Amulek.

And we'll do that next.

Segment 5

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[00:53:10] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Let's jump right back into Alma chapter 10, and we're going to just read verses 28 through 32. We'll each take a turn reading these verses. It's going to set up what's happening in Alma chapter 11. So Heather, we'll start with you and then we'll have Sharon and then myself.

[00:53:25] Heather B. Moore: So verse 28, and now it came to pass that when Amulek has spoken these words, the people cried out against him saying, now we know that this man is a child of the devil for he has lied unto us for he has spoken against our law.

And now he says that he has not spoken against it. And again, he has reviled against our lawyers and our judges.

[00:53:46] Sharon Staples: And it came to pass that the lawyers put it into their hearts that they should remember these things against him. And there was one among them whose name was Yazram. Now he was the foremost to accuse Amulek and Alma.

He being one of the most expert among them, having much business to do among the people.

[00:54:06] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Thank you. And now the object of these lawyers was to get gain and they got gain according to their employee. Okay. So we've got this guy named Zeezrom. So we are going to go into Alma chapter 11 and let's read verse 21 about this.

Verse 21 says, and this Zeezrom began to question Amulek saying, will you answer me a few questions, which I shall ask you. Now, Zeezrom was a man who was expert in the devices of the devil that he might destroy that which was good. Therefore, he said unto Amulek, will you answer the questions which I shall put unto you?

Okay. Before we even get into the questions, you're going to read a lot of verses that are about money right here. And the most important reason why these verses in here are about money is because we get in verse 13, all the different types of monies, but it says in verse 13 and an auntie was as great as them all.

So an auntie was a lot of money that you could possibly be offered. That's going to play into our story. But before we get into the aunties and the questions and all of that. I want us to turn end of the story. Go to Alma chapter 11 verse 46 and in verse 46, Heather, will you read that for us, please?

[00:55:19] Heather B. Moore: Now when Amulek had finished these words, the people began again to be astonished and us also, Zeezrom began to tremble and thus under the words of Amulek, or this is all that I have written.

[00:55:31] Tammy Uzelac Hall: There's that word astonished that you just so perfectly taught us about and the implication that maybe their hearts are being softened. Maybe they're starting to believe. So we have the end result of the words. I wanted to go at the end before we study the words, because whatever they're going to say.

The reaction will be, the people will be astonished and Zeezrom is going to begin, Zeezrom will begin to tremble. So I asked my guests to read Alma chapter 11 and I wanted to know from each of you, what verse or verses or what teaching specifically in this chapter do you think caused them to be astonished?

How was it so effective? And I want to know what you've got.

[00:56:15] Sharon Staples: Just generally, again, it's, um, the letter of the law versus the spirit. I mean, they, it, that, that just kind of, because they were paid according to their labor, they were after money more than understanding. And so, um, for me, it was even, Zeezrom tries to bribe Amulek, you know, to, in verses 21 through 25.

And I think, what, they've missed the mark totally and completely. So it's all about the spirit of Amulek versus the law of the lawyers versus their secular need to get gain. Versus the spirit of the Lord and, and salvation, which he does talk about. Um, he talks about the resurrection, Zeezrom about the resurrection and, uh, that they will be judged by their works.

I mean, he tells them flat out right at the beginning, look guys, this is what's going to happen and, and they kind of perk up their ears again and have that. Awesome. Experience. Mm. Hm. Astonishing.

[00:57:32] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Astonishing.

[00:57:33] Sharon Staples: Astonishing that he would talk about that to them when they're after money. Oh yeah.

[00:57:42] Tammy Uzelac Hall: And, and money is so important in here because in verse 22, when he, when Amulek starts to speak to him, then Zeezrom says, behold, there, here are six aunties of silver and all these will I give thee if thou will deny the existence of a supreme being.

That's a lot of money. Six ontis because verse 13 tells us an onti was as great as all the money they just described. So here's a ton of money. If you just deny the existence of a Supreme being and you love Amulek's response, Oh, child of hell, why tempt ye me? Knowest thou the righteous yieldeth to no such temptations, right?

[00:58:20] Heather B. Moore: I feel like Amulek, he, he's not as shrinking flower here. You know, he, he is, he's a man in industry. He's been in business for a long time with a lot of these people. He's, he's willing to argue back in verse 36 when he says, now Amulek said again to him, behold, thou has lied for thou sayest, sayest, I speak as though I had the authority to command God because I said he shall not save his people in their sins.

So, so he, he's basically debating with a lawyer and it just shows that Amulek knows how to express himself. He's, he's not going to just do it. Say, okay, you know, you caught me in my words. He is now he's firing back in those words. And I think that the society as a whole, when a society is, is so wicked as this, their currency is money.

Um, if you think of how many times we are sold. We are told to serve those around us to be like the savior and to serve and serve and serve. These people don't serve each other. Everything is a commodity. Everything is traded on money. And so the lawyer thinks, well, you know, Amulek is a man in industry.

Everything he has ever done is based on currency. So if I just. Offer him the six on ties or on teas. Um, then he's going to be like, Oh wait, okay, you got me. I do. I do. I work in money, but I mean, like has changed his heart so much. He no longer works on currency.

[00:59:52] Sharon Staples: Oh, that was powerful. I like that. That's great.

Yeah. A lot. Good, good articulation there for that. What's happening. That's great.

[01:00:01] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Yeah, absolutely. Any other thoughts or things that would have changed these people that he had said?

[01:00:08] Heather B. Moore: I think basically starting at 37 and going through You know, the end of the chapter is these are, these are concepts that, that maybe a lot of the people have not really learned or studied.

And so Amulek is just really laying it out that you cannot be saved in your sins. Um, and he talks about, about how do, how, how the savior will redeem the world. And so these are very powerful concepts. And some of these concepts, some of them may have never really. learned or really believed in. And so I think this is just one of the strongest parts of Amulek's teaching is to teach these people.

This is, this is why we need to change is because if we don't change, then you will literally not become. Um, resurrected and you, you won't be able to receive the rewards in heaven that you're, you're due.

[01:01:09] Tammy Uzelac Hall: I was absolutely struck in verses 25 through 27. How many times they said the word, the true and living God in verse 25 and 26 and 27, there is a true and living God. I think what struck me with that is that is a concept that even today people don't understand, but there is a true and living God. That is So powerful.

And I, you know, and I, I've, I've shared, I don't know if I've shared the story before, but I didn't know that. Like I knew that I was a child of God. I had sung that my whole life in primary and I knew God existed, but I didn't really know. Who God was, but to have this idea that he is true and that he is living, it just blew my mind.

And I remember at Rick's college, I took a class, uh, like a theology class and we read all these great scholars and past scholars. Like I can't even think, I mean, Sharon, you would know because you studied philosophy. I had to read Nietzsche. I had to read who were all the great Augustine, Aquinas.

Perfect. Thank you. We had to read all of those. Oh, Calvin, I just remember reading all this crazy stuff and it was neither here nor there for me. You know, I'm, I'm 21. What do I know? I'm just reading all of these scholars and then the very last book that our professor had us read was lectures on faith, which I had never even heard of in my life, but it was a little bit more of my style cause it was such a small book.

Like I can read 80 pages and then I got in and realized it was a bigger book than I imagined, but it was the first time in my life that I realized he is a true and living God. God lives. God is real. And if I were to see him today, he would look like a man. He would be someone I could hug. And that just blew my mind.

And isn't it interesting that that's the first thing he sets out with? He's like, let me tell you first about a true and living God. Cause that's the first thing I'm going to need everybody to believe in before we can even get into any of the deeper things that Heather has pointed out. And so this, that right there had to have astonished them.

A lot of them like, Oh, I have a father. I have a true and living God. It's incredible. And so in the next segment, we're going to talk about how knowing a true and living God is the first step before understanding the plan. And we'll go over what Alma and Amulek call that plan in the next segment.

Segment 6

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[01:03:42] Tammy Uzelac Hall: All right, you two, here's what I want us to do. I want you to think of God's plan for each one of us, because there's a lot of names for God's overarching plan. I want to know from you, what, what name do you call God's plan? What comes to mind when you think of God's plan? What is it for you? A plan of what?

Happiness. Yay. I like that plan of happiness. That's a good way to describe it. Heather. What about you?

[01:04:09] Heather B. Moore: I think I just think salvation, which is a, which is an important word. Tell me why. I think because, um, it allows us to be humble, allows us to make mistakes and allows us to be redeemed and to just continually have hope and like Sharon said, in our hope we can, we can be happy.

[01:04:35] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Absolutely. Okay.

[01:04:36] Sharon Staples: What about you, Tammy?

[01:04:37] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Oh, I absolutely thought plan of happiness. That's the way I've always described it because there's not a lot of happy sometimes in the world, but it goes back to that verse, Heather, that you shared, but rejoice because things are pretty good. And so we've got to remember that this plan, it is a plan of happiness.

But what struck me is throughout the book of Alma chapter 12, the way that Alma and Amulek. Title or call this plan. So we're going to go to a couple of verses and market several times. Let's go to Alma chapter 12 verse 25. That's the first place we see this verse 25 and Heather, can you please read it for us?

[01:05:14] Heather B. Moore: Now if it had not been for the plan of redemption, which was laid from the foundation of the world, there could have been no resurrection of the dead, but there was a plan of redemption laid which shall bring to pass the resurrection of the dead of which has been spoken.

[01:05:30] Tammy Uzelac Hall: And that's highlight plan of redemption.

There it is twice in that verse. Let's read it again in verse 26, Sharon, will you read that for us? Sure.

[01:05:37] Sharon Staples: And now behold, if it were possible that our first parents could have gone forth and partaken of the tree of life, they would have been forever miserable. Having no preparatory state and thus the plan of redemption would have been frustrated and the Word of God would have been void taking none effect.

[01:05:55] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Thank you. Let's go to verse 30. And they began from that time forth to call on his name. Therefore God conversed with men and made known unto them the plan of redemption, which hath been prepared from the foundation of the world. And this he made known unto them according to their faith and repentance and their holy works.

Okay. Verse 32, Heather, read that for us.

[01:06:16] Heather B. Moore: Therefore God gave unto them commandments after having made known unto them the plan of redemption that they would not do evil. The penalty thereof being a second death, which was an everlasting death as to things pertaining unto righteousness. For on such, the plan of redemption could have no power.

For the works of justice could not be destroyed according to the supreme goodness of God.

[01:06:40] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Thank you. And then Sharon, verse 33, please.

[01:06:44] Sharon Staples: But God did call on men in the name of his son, this being the plan of redemption, which was laid saying, if you will repent and harden not your hearts, then will I have mercy upon you begotten son.

Thank you. There it

[01:07:01] Tammy Uzelac Hall: is. They call it the plan of redemption. While they're talking. And so I want to know, let's define the word redemption first so we can understand what this whole plan is about. If someone were to ask you to find the word redemption for me, or just in maybe in a setting, what does redeem?

What does redemption mean? How would you describe it or

[01:07:20] Sharon Staples: define it? First of all, I went to find out what redemption was in Hebrew. Oh, okay. And the word is gullah, and it means prior existence. Of an obligation, which tells me that Christ in the pre mortal life obligated himself to bring redemption to all of us.

So he had a prior existence of his obligation. And then with that understanding comes the definition of to rescue. So redemption for me is to rescue from slavery, which rescue from danger, rescue from hardship, um, and to even erase our words, our works, and our thoughts, let alone our actions. So it starts for me, In the premortal life with the Lord, our savior saying, I will be obligated to do this and he did.

And so redemption for me is his planning ahead. Do you know that preparatory part that we talked about for what he was about to do? And so, um, redemption for me is his love. Is Christ's love for me before I even got here?

[01:09:10] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Sharon, I'm just writing down everything you said. I like how you said Christ's love for me before I even got here.

[01:09:17] Sharon Staples: Yeah.

[01:09:19] Tammy Uzelac Hall: It supports verse 30. It says, the plan of redemption with which have been prepared from the foundation of this world. Thank you.

[01:09:31] Sharon Staples: It just blew my mind when I read that and immediately went to, uh, the vision of the savior.

[01:09:43] Tammy Uzelac Hall: And, and just your testimony of that sharing right now that you shared, I can tell how much you love him.

[01:09:50] Sharon Staples: Good. I'm glad it shows.

[01:09:53] Tammy Uzelac Hall: It does. It does. Something neat about that word that Sharon shared. If anyone's interested, the book of Ruth has the word for redemption in Hebrew, gula or goel, more than any other chapter.

It's throughout the book of Ruth where the kinsmen He is the go well, and that is, it's a great connection to the redeemer and the word redemption. So thank you so much, Sharon. You're welcome. Heather, how would you define it?

[01:10:24] Heather B. Moore: I, I really like what Sharon said. It really touched me. Um, I, I just one time when I was in the temple, I just had this.

Striking feeling that the moment that the fall happened with Adam and Eve, um, all this preparation that the saver had put into it, the heavenly father and saver had put into the plan of salvation is a moment that fall happened. I wondered how the saver felt. He knew it was going to happen. He had prepared for it to happen, but then it actually happened and he knew that now his journey was going to start because the human race had started and he knew now that he would be coming to earth.

And being crucified and performing the atonement. Um, so it really touched me what Sharon said. Cause it reminded me of that, those feelings that I had had. Um, I also think that redemption is not only, um, going to the, through the process of repentance and growing and learning what we need to line up online, but also it's moving past some of the pains and sorrows.

In our life and be able to fully have that peace that we're seeking. Not only do we repent and move on for from our sins, but we don't have to go back to those sins because we have become whole with God through our repentance. And so we kind of like, we're able to have greater light and knowledge because we've, we've, Started to progress, um, where things maybe in our youth or early 20s that were really hard for us to overcome.

We've overcome them. And so now we can now have greater light and knowledge. And we that to me, that becomes redemptive is because I, I can serve better, I can love better, and I can understand better because I've gone through those growing pains, so to speak.

[01:12:34] Sharon Staples: That's wonderful. That's such a, an encouraging explanation of moving on.

And I always think of the saying, if you're going through hell, keep going, don't stop. Don't stop. If you're going to hell, keep going. And then you've just articulated that in, in a, in a beautiful way of redemption allows us to keep going, to repent and move on and, and, and feel the spirit and, and make a difference in our lives that would, that was great.

Heather. Thank you.

[01:13:07] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Wow. I'm writing all of this down. I'm in my scriptures because next to these verses are, we just talked about plan of redemption. I've now renamed it the plan of keep going. I think that is so awesome. Yeah. The plan of keep going. And then the plan of love, Sharon. I think that's what you taught me from your testimony of that, the plan of love, the plan of keep going.

Um, my definition went in a little more secular way. I looked up the definition in the 1828 Webster's and everything you both shared is in there. But one thing I'd never, I'd never noticed this definition before. And it said to. To receive liberation of an estate from a mortgage. And it hit me because as a homeowner, the first time I bought a house, I felt the weight and the pressure of making sure I paid that monthly payment and it came up due every month.

And there were some months when I'm like, Oh, I got this, I can pay it. And then there were other months where I'm like, Oh, I don't know how I'm going to make ends meet. Like this is a lot of money. And you feel that for 30 years. If not more, depending on how long you're paying for your house, but Oh, what I wouldn't have given for someone to come in and just say, you know what?

I'm just going to pay for it for you. It's done. You don't have to worry about paying this any month. And it was just this, it is a liberating feeling to not be weighed down by the heaviness of a mortgage. And so this plan of redemption for me became a plan of relief. Just like, Oh, okay, it's taken care of.

I don't have to carry this at all. And that was the whole point is we don't have to carry it alone or at all. And so we have just renamed in this beautiful way, the plan of redemption. It is, it is the plan of love, the plan of keep going, the plan of letting go. I think that's what is so beautiful. And now Alma and Amulek are teaching these people who have been astonished that let me tell you what the savior can do.

Let us, let's talk about Jesus, which is the heart of this message. And so bracket off verses 14 through 37, because verses 14 through 37 are then all of the requirements for the plan of redemption to work. They go into detail of what it is that will be required to do. And so in the last couple of minutes here, I'd just like to know from the two of you, is there a specific verse that touched you where you're like.

Wow. Okay. I've got to be aware of this or this is something that stood out to me for this plan to work.

[01:15:41] Sharon Staples: Well, no, all of them did. I can't, I can't choose one. I mean, they're just, uh,

[01:15:46] Tammy Uzelac Hall: verse 14 reminded me of you, Sharon. You've taught us verse 14 so many times. Our words will condemn us. Our works will condemn us. We should be found spotless and our thoughts will condemn us because didn't you teach us that everything we say is, is, oh yeah, yeah,

[01:16:01] Sharon Staples: it's out there in the universe. So all of our words are out there. And um, if we're lucky. At judgment day, they will be evaporated. But if, if our words, but if we're not lucky, I mean, if we, if we haven't kept the covenant path, then those words will become flooding back into our minds. And we'll say, Oh no, I actually said that. I actually thought that I actually did that.

But if we. Stay true to the faith, hold to the iron rod, keep our covenants, they will just poof and they'll be gone. Nowhere in space, nowhere, anywhere, nowhere in my mind, nowhere in the Lord's mind, they're gone. That's redemption.

[01:16:46] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Oh, amen. That is, that'll help a lot of, that's going to get me out of a couple of jams. That's redemption. Whew. Yeah. How about you, Heather?

[01:16:57] Heather B. Moore: Um, I really love in verse 15 where in the middle, it says that he is just in all his works and that he is merciful unto the children of men. I think sometimes we listen to the world. We listen to other people. We let them define us. We compare ourselves.

We criticize ourselves because we feel like we're not doing a B and C where, you know, our family doesn't look like. You know, the perfect family that you see on social media. And I think if we just realize that we have one judge, which is a savior, and he is a merciful judge. Then that's the only voice that we need to be listening to as far as our spiritual, our spiritual health.

Um, so that just stood out to me because I thought, not only is he just, not only will our hurts be made right as we learn. Um. Alma 41, 14, that you shall receive your reward. Yeah, you shall have mercy restored unto you again. You shall have justice restored unto you. You shall have a righteous judgment restored unto you and you shall have good rewarded unto you again.

So this is comforting to me that when we know that not only will there be justice. Which we all want justice for, for hurts and wrongs against us, but he will also be merciful not only to others in our sphere, but also to us, which I think to me, um, it just reminds me what is most important and what I should be focusing on is not the words and the, the contradictions and the arguments that the world is bringing to us, like, Okay.

Like the lawyers and the judges and the Amuleks life. Um, but we need just, just keeping my focus on the savior is what's important.

[01:18:57] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Well, and we've learned this year, Heather, this is kind of neat that you've chosen that when it says he is merciful unto the children of men, the word mercy in Hebrew. It comes from the word for the word womb, where a baby is protected and nourished.

And right here, he is merciful unto the children of men and he has all power to save every man. And I'm thinking of friends who have been in situations where maybe they couldn't save the baby in their womb. Maybe something happened because of a world that we live in. And here he is saying he has all power to save every man that believes on his name.

And I just picture myself in that womb of love and care and protection for me. That's the ultimate effect of this plan of redemption is that I'm going to be cared for and loved, loved, loved. So thank you both of you. What a great discussion today of these chapters. This has been. Thank you.

[01:19:53] Sharon Staples: I have learned so much from you two, so much. Thank you. . So insightful. It's just great. Let's do this again.

[01:20:00] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Yeah. Right. Okay, so I have one last final question for you, and this can come from any point in your life or from our discussion today, but one of the things we're doing this summer is we are celebrating a summer of joy, and it comes from the scripture in James chapter one, verse two, that we are to count it all joy.

Even when it seems really hard and we're going through trials. So I just want to know from the two of you, how have you done this in your life or do you have any recommendations on how to count it? Joy,

[01:20:29] Sharon Staples: joy through trial.

[01:20:31] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Yeah, I know.

[01:20:33] Sharon Staples: Well mostly I cry. I mean I cry, I cry a lot. I mean I, I mean you talk about wrestling with the Lord. I mean I cry and cry and cry and cry and say, why me? Why me? Why this? Why that? And if, if I stay down long enough on my knees, then he will whisper in my mind and in my heart, this is why.

And, and so I have learned to count on that response from my pleadings. If I plead with sincerity of heart and and heartache and trust in him that he will, um, calm my troubled heart, but I have to give it my all. I mean, I have to say, I can't do this. I cannot do this alone, but it takes a great deal of concentrated prayer and effort and humility to, to get an answer, to get that peace of mind.

So it's not an easy trip. And for me, it seldom brings joy. So I can't, Respond to that peace of mind. Yes. And the promise that all will, that it will all turn out. Okay. The promise that it will all turn out. Okay. Turn it over to the Lord.

[01:22:02] Tammy Uzelac Hall: I thought that was a great response to that question. Thank you.

That's awesome. No, it's perfect. Thank you. What about you, Heather?

[01:22:10] Heather B. Moore: I think similar to Sharon. I mean, prayer is very. Healing, I guess is, is one word. Um, you can verbally prayer pray. You can silently pray. I found that just writing down kind of venting my thoughts, just writing them down, like in a journal or just on a piece of paper that I might tear up or burn later, uh, sharing my feelings with, you know, just sharing my feelings with, with a trusted friend or family member.

Um, also just recognizing that I am not God. I am not in control. Um, I am not the savior and, but I, but I have a savior and he's the one that can heal the person that I'm praying for, or he can heal hearts around me. Um, So I need to put my trust in the Lord's plan, but that's just not for me, but for my loved ones, um, and just listening and pondering sometimes, sometimes it's just waiting, being patient.

Sometimes you go through the grieving, you're crying, you're, you're devastated. Um, but putting trust in the Lord is where, you know, there's joy in that. You may not feel the joy yet, but hopefully. It will come eventually, um, as you receive that piece. But I feel like that one thing that kind of steals joy from me is the, if onlys, if I just focus on, Oh, if only I could pay this medical bill, or if only my daughters are better friends, or if only my, my friend's cancer would go into remission, or only if only I could sleep good tonight, or, you know, there there's just so many, if onlys, and if I just focus on those, then I don't.

Have that peace, it takes away the peace that I could maybe be filling. Um, but I feel like having joy in the gospel and having peace in our hearts, it really is tied to faith in the plan of happiness and knowing that how my father loves all of his, all of his children, and he is just, and he is merciful to everybody.

[01:24:27] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Mm. Yeah. That's great. Heather, I really appreciated that you said the if onlys. Yeah. I think the, if onlys are the antithesis of joy. Cause it just focuses on what we lack. So that was a great answer. Hmm. And Tammy, you, Tammy, well, I will tell you for me, like you said, it's not easy when you're in the thick of it.

And when you're in the trial, listen, I'm not thinking where's the joy in this. Like that song, joy in the journey. Yeah. Sometimes there's not joy in my journey. There's just not. And it's really hard. But. I really love the quote by Neal A. Maxwell that says, it's the one that says sorrow will carve cavities in the soul that will later become reservoirs of joy.

And I do believe that and I have definitely felt cavities being carved in my soul. I know what that feels like and it's not fun and that carving is as awful as it sounds like going in and having someone take the cavity out of your tooth. It's that painful to have it, have it be a reservoir of joy. Yes, I do believe that comes, but like both of you said, through much, through a lot of prayer and a lot of patience.

And so he calms my troubled heart and that if only as I am a victim of the if onlys, Oh, yo, yo, I got to just remember, like once I start saying that, stop. So thank you friends. Beautiful. I felt the spirit so many times today. That was neat. Well, of course, I want to know how you're counting at joy this summer.

And we've encouraged everybody to do a joy journal or just go on Instagram share with us what brings you joy or what joy you found this week in your everyday life. You can get to both our Facebook and Instagram again by going to the show notes. At LDS living. com slash Sunday on Monday. And it's not a bad idea to go there anyway, because it's where we're going to have links to all the references and a transcript of this whole discussion.

So go check it out. The Sunday on Monday study group is a desert bookshelf plus original brought to you by LDS living. It's written and hosted by me, Tami Uzelac Hall. And today our incredible study group participants were Heather B. Moore and Sharon Staples. And you can find more information about my friends at LDS living.

com slash Sunday on Monday. Our podcast is produced by Cole Wissinger and me. It is edited and mixed by Cole Wissinger and our executive producer is Erin Hallstrom. Thanks for being here. We'll see you next week. And please remember that the true and living God loves you and you are his favorite.