The following transcript is intended to aid in your study. However, while we try to go through the transcript, our transcripts are primarily computer-generated and often contain errors. Please forgive the transcripts’ imperfections.

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[00:00:00] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Last week, I was talking to a really good friend of mine in my kitchen. So she's an amazing mom to four fabulous children who are now grown and they're on their own. And their being on their own has come with some very unexpected moments for her that involve her children and the church in my kitchen.

As we were discussing this, and I will never forget this. I asked her what it has been like to have all of these different experiences and quite frankly, shocking experiences. And she looked at me and she says, It's caused me to take a very careful look. At what it is that I believe in, what is my testimony?

And then she got emotional as she shared with me her love of the savior of God of church and the many spiritual experiences that she cannot deny that have truly shaped who she is and her commitment to stay. Today's discussion of Mosiah chapters 29 through Alma four will have us assessing and answering for ourselves.

What do I believe in and why do I stay? Welcome to the Sunday on Monday study group, a Deseret Bookshelf plus original brought to you by LDS living, where we take the come follow me lesson for the week. And we really dig into the scriptures together. I'm your host, Tammy Usilac Hall. Now, if you're new to our study group, please follow the link in our description.

It's going to explain how you can best use this podcast to enhance your come follow me study. Just like my friends, Gail Bleak, Janice Foster, Jane Aird, and Joan Stott, who are all sisters and listen to the podcast. Hello, ladies. I love you all. Now, another awesome thing about our study group is each week we're joined by two of my friends.

And so it's always a little bit different. And today is different. We have, well, Chere, Chere's been on a couple of times. Chere's our historian, a resident historian with Jenny reader. And so we love, love, love Chere. And I asked Chere, Hey, can Give me some ideas. I want to know. I just thought I'd throw it out there to her and said, is there anybody you think would be great on this podcast?

And without hesitation, you texted me the name of this young woman. And so I'm so excited to introduce you guys to Becca Frei. Hello, Becca.

[00:02:03] Rebecca Frei: Hello. Hello. I'm so excited to be on this.

[00:02:07] Tammy Uzelac Hall: You're here. We're so excited to have you here. Okay. Chere, how do you and Becca know each other?

[00:02:12] Chere Clark: Well, I am lucky to be in her YSA ward, um, and I have been assigned to that ward and I go to Becca's Relief Society class where she teaches and, um, I visit her apartment with all of her roommates and she is amazing.

I come out of her Relief Society lessons. just amazed at all that I learn and the spirit. She brings the spirit so well. And I love Becca. Becca has so many talents and is so awesome. And I just want everybody to know about her. Thank you. She has beautiful long, long hair is gorgeous, long brown, beautiful hair.

[00:02:56] Tammy Uzelac Hall: She does. And Becca, tell me, tell me about, um, Miss Chere because you're telling me some fun things.

[00:03:04] Rebecca Frei: Yeah. A phenomenal woman. So Chere's husband was our high councilman in our ward, but then he got released. And I just know everybody in the ward was so sad, and we, we didn't want to lose the Clarks, obviously.

Um, but then, Chere got a new calling as our Compassionate Service Coordinator, I believe that's the title.

[00:03:24] Chere Clark: Mental heart, mental health specialist. There we go.

[00:03:28] Rebecca Frei: Even better. So I know I've been blessed by Chere. She's brought me soup. She's been just a cheerleader, wonderful person. I love having her in my lessons because she inevitably adds something amazing that brings the spirit.

So I'm so grateful to have gotten to know Chere.

[00:03:47] Chere Clark: Becca, you are too nice. I love you so much.

[00:03:49] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Listen, every ward should have a Chere in charge of the mental health in the ward because if she's bringing soup, she's such a good cook.

[00:03:57] Rebecca Frei: It was so out of the blue. I was like, I'm, I'm not even like, sick. I'm, I'm just having a rough time.

And she noticed. Brought me soup.

[00:04:05] Tammy Uzelac Hall: That's Chere. Absolutely. Oh my gosh. This is going to be a fun discussion. There's so much love among the three of us. So I cannot wait to just find out what you guys have to offer. Oh, these chapters are so good. So everyone listening, if you want to know more about my guests, you can find pictures of them and their bios in our show notes, which are at ldsliving.

com slash Sunday on Monday. So grab your scriptures and whether you're studying alone with family or friends, let's dig in together to Mosiah chapter 29 through Alma four. Okay, you two, here's my question. What did the Holy Ghost teach you as you studied these chapters? Becky, you want to go first?

[00:04:42] Rebecca Frei: Yeah, I'd be happy to go first.

Um, as I was reading these chapters, it was just so interesting to see how I've been seeing these things in my own life. You know, these were Different issues people had, you know, people leaving the church, different contentions, being unsure, you know, I've seen that in my own life. Um, but there was one scripture that really stuck out to me, and that was in Alma 2, and that was verse 28, um, and this is as the Nephites are battling the Lamanites After all this contention, so it says, nevertheless, the Nephites being strengthened by the hand of the Lord having prayed mightily to him that he would deliver them out of the hands of their enemies.

Therefore, the Lord did hear their cries and did strengthen them, and the laymanites and the endless sights did fall before them. So obviously I'm not in any major combat or anything, but the Lord hears my cries. And I love that the first thing that the Nephites did was to choose to pray to the Lord in the midst of all of this conflict.

And it reminded me of Elder Godoy's talk where what I took from his talk was that the first thing you should do when you need help is to look to the Lord and pray to him. And it's not a matter of, Oh, the Lord's just going to pluck me out of my problem, but the Lord's going to strengthen me to deal with my problem.

And he's going to guide me so that I can be successful. And I saw that here with the Nephites and I see it in my own life. And so that scripture really resonated with me.

[00:06:22] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Wow, thank you. I wrote down in my scriptures. Yeah, I did too. I loved it so much when you said the, and the Lord hears my cries. You said it was such conviction.

I thought that was powerful. What a great moment. Why did you love it? Chere?

[00:06:37] Chere Clark: Well, going back to what Becca said for a minute. Um, when she says, of course, she's not in a big battle. And I would say, yes, you are in a big battle trail. It's just a, a spiritual battle that

[00:06:50] Tammy Uzelac Hall: I'm like, she's in a singles ward.

That's the battle. Let's just start with that.

[00:06:55] Chere Clark: There's so much that you're dealing with and all of us deal with that. We need to look at that not as a we're in war physically, but we are in war. So, um, great insight anyway. I love that. And I know Becca to be somebody that actually really does that and praise and turns to the Lord.

She has great faith. I think the thing that the Holy Ghost taught me, there was quite a few different things that came out, but, um, on Alma 1, 27, I think, and they did impart of their substance, every man, according to that, which he had to the poor and the needy and the sick and the afflicted, and they did not wear costly apparel, yet they were neat and comely.

And it just, it's, And then if you go over to 4, Alma 4 verses 12 through 14, it kind of talks even more about that. But it made me think about how imparting of your substance for the poor and needy and really just looking out for one another and ministering to those in need and mourning. with those who are in need of mourning are so key to staying true to your covenants and your testimony.

And it kind of goes along with what Elder Stevenson's talk was about with the two towers of loving God and loving your neighbor. And, um, You, you have to get rid of all unkindness in your heart and just really, um, focus on those that are in a different place than you and not be all about you. And so I love that in the fact that it really made me realize, you know, that is such a key thing, not to. Disregard the poor and the needy.

[00:08:50] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Great insight. Chere. Thank you. And thank you for bringing up that conference to talk. I think that beautifully connected to it. So thank you. Okay. So in the next segment, then we are going to jump into Mosiah chapter 29 through Alma chapter four, and we're going to find out what it was, what is the predicament that caused these people to get to a point where they cried unto the Lord and he delivered them. We'll do that next.

Segment 2

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[00:09:21] Tammy Uzelac Hall: We are in Mosiah chapter 29 turn there in your scriptures and we have a situation verse 10 because Mosiah he knows they need to find a king and He knows that these people need a new leader. And so he asks his son Aaron to do it in verse 3 That's where we want to go first verse 3 Becca. Will you please read verse 3 for us?

[00:09:42] Rebecca Frei: Yes, now Aaron had gone up to the land of Nephi Therefore the king could not confer the kingdom upon him You Neither would Aaron take upon him the kingdom, neither were any of the sons of Mosiah willing to take upon them the kingdom.

[00:09:55] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Thank you. And so they're in this predicament, like who's going to be our leader?

Aaron says no. And then they're trying to discuss what is best for the people. That's what we have in verse 10. Chere, will you read verse 10?

[00:10:08] Chere Clark: Yes, it says, and now let us be wise and look forward to these things and do that, which will make for the peace of this people.

[00:10:17] Tammy Uzelac Hall: So what's going to be the best case scenario is what King Mosiah is thinking. What's going to help these people now they're up in Zarahemla and he wants what's best and he makes a decision. He's like, I think I know what we need. Becca read verse 11.

[00:10:32] Rebecca Frei: Therefore, I will be your King. The remainder of my days, nevertheless, let us appoint judges. To judge this people according to our law and we will newly arrange the affairs of this people For we will appoint wise men to be judges that will judge this people according to the commandments of God.

[00:10:49] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Thank you. In verse 11, grab a scripture highlighter and let's make sure we highlight the word judges right there. This is a very important word from this point on in the book of Mormon. He's saying, we're just going to appoint judges. We want judges. We want righteous judges, wise men to be judges. And here's why verse 13, Becca, keep reading for us.

[00:11:10] Rebecca Frei: Yeah. Therefore, if it were possible that you could have just men to be your kings, who would establish the laws of God, and judge this people according to his commandments, yea, if you could have men for your kings, who would do even as my father Benjamin did for this people, I say unto you, if this could always be the case, let Then it would be expedient that you should always have Kings to rule over you.

[00:11:33] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Thank you. So we have this idea of judges versus Kings, and he carefully points out Kings are not good and we're going to stick with judges. And so I asked the two of you to look through the rest of Mosiah chapter 29 because he then goes into this whole argument about why Kings are not good. And so I'd love for you to give us some verses that we can mark and let's read. And find out what are all the reasons why a king would not be good for these people and why judges is best case scenario. What'd you guys come up with? What'd you mark?

[00:12:03] Rebecca Frei: I had a phrase in verse 12, end of verse 12. It says the judgments of man are not always just.

[00:12:10] Chere Clark: Mm. Yeah. I like that. I also found in, um, verse seven said there would be, there would rise contentions among you and, um, that if his son Aaron would decide that he wanted to be king again, he could draw away part of the people after him, which would be cause of shedding much blood and perverting the way of the Lord gay and destroy the souls of many people. Mm hmm. Which would, contentions.

[00:12:43] Rebecca Frei: I think the destroy the souls of many, it's so intense, it's more than just a physical war. Your soul is something so much deeper, and it just shows how much a king can draw people the wrong direction. Even as much as they can draw them in the right direction. a king can influence so much.

[00:13:04] Tammy Uzelac Hall: I just now have this thought that that verse is kind of foreshadowing what's to come as we see that later on in this discussion today, we, it really does happen. And it really does destroy the souls of many people because you have one man that's like, I think I could do a better job and he self appoints. So that, that is some foreshadowing right there. I can't even believe I knew that word.

[00:13:24] Chere Clark: well said in verse verse 21 saying, ye cannot dethrone an iniquitous, iniquitous king. Save it. Be through much contention and the shedding of much blood, which we will see that , right?

[00:13:38] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Yes. Oh, that's a great one to mark. Verse 21. Nice. In fact, in verse 22, because he has friends in iniquity and he keep with his guards about him, don't you think that's interesting that word friends, friends in iniquity. Mm hmm. He trampleth under his feet the commandments of God. Oh. In verse 22.

[00:13:59] Rebecca Frei: I know. It's just, it gets messier and messier as you read what they can do. And you know, it starts with one person, but you know, that group of friends, friends in iniquity, like you said. You'll support each other in the wrong things. You'll convince each other in the wrong things and slowly but surely just start losing little bits and pieces of what you did hold. It's like people say you're a sum of the five pieces, five people closest to you. And well, if your friends are friends iniquity, your life's going to be full of iniquity.

[00:14:38] Tammy Uzelac Hall: That's a great idea. Yeah. I like how you said it gets messier and messier. It totally does. As you keep reading these verses.

[00:14:45] Chere Clark: Yeah, if you look at verse 23, he enacts laws after the manner of his own wickedness and whosoever doth not obey his laws, he causes to be destroyed. And whosoever doth rebel against him, he will send armies against them to war. And if he can destroy them, he will. And thus an unrighteous king doth pervert the ways of all righteousness. So yeah, you do not want a king, an unrighteous king. No, not at all.

[00:15:15] Rebecca Frei: Especially when the judges, it leaves room for there to be voices and for people to be heard.

And. To say, hey, wait a minute, I don't agree with this, or, hey, I'm, I don't understand, why are we doing this? But if you were to try to even get clarification from an unrighteous king, he doesn't have a good clarification other than his whims and whatever he believes, and so he will squash you like a little bug.

[00:15:44] Chere Clark: Well, you have no liberty anymore. You don't have a voice. And it says in verse 31, um, the sins of many people have been caused by the iniquities of their kings. Therefore, their iniquities are answered upon the heads of their kings because the king has taken away all the voice. You have no voice.

[00:16:06] Tammy Uzelac Hall: So Ooh, those are good.

Great job, you guys. I love all these verses. So we can clearly see that a king is not a good option and that instead we're just going to have righteous judges. They're going to be appointed. And so as we continue in Mosiah chapter 29, Mosiah knows that he's getting old and we're going to find out how old he is in just a minute.

But I really like verse 40 because this verse just sums up the beauty of this King Mosiah. And one of the things that we've been studying, as you guys know, We've studied the word Zarahemla, and the word Zarahemla in Hebrew means seed of compassion. And so that could be what Zarahemla means, a city that is a seed of compassion.

And as we know, every time another group or tribe came into Zarahemla, Mosiah, it always says, Mosiah greeted them with joy. He was like, come join us. We're so happy to have you here. He was never once like, get out of here, you jerks. I mean, he was just this wonderful king and we've marked that several times.

He has just done a wonderful job. And so verse 40 sums him up beautifully. Chere, can you read that for us?

[00:17:14] Chere Clark: Yes.

[00:17:15] Tammy Uzelac Hall: And this is speaking of the people in Zarahemla.

[00:17:20] Chere Clark: And they did wax strong in love towards Mosiah, yea, they did esteem him more than any other man. For they did not look upon him as a tyrant who was seeking for gain, yea, for that lucre which doth corrupt the soul.

For he had not exacted riches of them, neither had he delighted in the shedding of blood. But he had established peace in the land, and he had granted unto his people that they should be delivered from all manner of bondage. Therefore they did esteem him, yea, exceedingly beyond measure.

[00:17:53] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Oh, is that the greatest compliment of all compliments?

[00:17:57] Chere Clark: It really is. How awesome to Like at your Funeral. If somebody said that they exceedingly esteemed you beyond measure, that's quite the compliment.

[00:18:11] Tammy Uzelac Hall: I know I could only hope I'm in my mind. I'm like, my funeral be like, she was nice. A little bit funny.

[00:18:17] Chere Clark: Tell you what she really was like,

[00:18:19] Tammy Uzelac Hall: please do not have an open mic at my funeral.

Shut it down. Chere shut it down. If anyone gets up. Oh, it is. It's just the greatest, highest compliment. And I wrote to the outside of that. He is joy because that's how he received everyone with so much joy. And so as they, they have this about him, then verse 42 teaches us who the first judge will be.

Becca, will you read verse 42 for us?

[00:18:44] Rebecca Frei: And it came to pass that Alma was appointed to be the first chief judge. He being also the high priest, his father having conferred the office upon him. Amen. Amen. And having given him the charge concerning all the affairs of the church.

[00:18:56] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Thank you. And next to Alma right there.

I put Jr. Jr. That's Alma Jr. Alma, the younger. And so he is now the first chief judge. And then verse 45, Becca, go ahead and read that for us.

[00:19:07] Rebecca Frei: Yep. And now it came to pass that his father died being 80 and two years old, having lived to fulfill the commandments of God.

[00:19:15] Tammy Uzelac Hall: I mean, Alma was old, Alma was 82 years old.

And then look at Mosiah in verse 46, go ahead and read that for us, Becca.

[00:19:23] Rebecca Frei: And it came to pass that Mosiah died also in the 30 and third year of his reign, being 63 years old. Making, in the whole, 509 years from the time Lehi left Jerusalem.

[00:19:35] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Wonderful. Thank you so much. 63 is young. So young. I saw that when I was like, Oh my gosh, 63 and all that he did in 33 years.

But then the Alma thing got me 82 years old.

[00:19:50] Chere Clark: Yeah. He had to have left.

[00:19:54] Tammy Uzelac Hall: I always thought that maybe when he left Noah, I don't know, it seems like maybe he was married with kids. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know the timing on that, but he would have had to have been a little bit older than a, just, I've always thought it was like a young 20 year old single living the life because then it gives me perspective for Alma, the younger, like he had been in bondage. He had experienced so much and huh, I don't know.

[00:20:16] Chere Clark: Yeah. I always thought about Alma, the younger being like, I don't know, I don't know. I don't know. Just a little child back then. Yeah. But maybe not. Who knows?

[00:20:27] Tammy Uzelac Hall: All right. Now, as we go into Alma chapter one, verse one, we enter into the first year of the reign of the judges over the people of Nephi.

That's why we highlighted the word judges. That's why you want to know it from this point on. That is how they'll tell time, the first year of the reign of the judges. And so in the next segment, we're going to find out what

happened in that first year.

Segment 3

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[00:20:56] Tammy Uzelac Hall: As we begin our first year of the reign of judges, that is how time is now going to be counted. So in the first year of the reign of the judges, I want everyone to grab three colored pencils. Peace. Bye. Any three you want. Now I chose the colors green, red, and purple, and I did not tell my guests what to choose. What did you guys choose?

[00:21:14] Rebecca Frei: I did green and red, but then I used brown because things are getting a little murky. You can't always tell what's truth when it's mixed.

[00:21:25] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Okay, that's clever. I like that. What'd you choose Chere?

[00:21:29] Chere Clark: I just chose purple, yellow, and red. Okay. Because. Those were the colors I haven't used in my scriptures.

[00:21:37] Tammy Uzelac Hall: So I love it. I love it. Here's why you want three colors. I asked my guests to do this. All three of us did it together and it was really fun. As we were reading Alma one, I wanted them to label what is true, what is false and what is mixed or murky, as you said, Becca, I really liked that. So I marked everything that was true in green, everything that was false in red and everything that was mixed true and, and faults in this purple color or brown or.

Whatever color you want. And it was really interesting to see this because we have a situation going on in Alma chapter one that involves a man and it says he was large and he was noted for as much strength. And then verse two tells us some things he began to preach. So we're going to read what he taught and mark his teachings with our colors.

And I would love after we'd get done to just tell me, what did you guys mark in your colors? Okay. So let's read verses three through five. That's where we're going to start. And Becca, can you read that for us?

[00:22:32] Rebecca Frei: Yeah, I'm a little worried though because you know, I've got all these bad things marked. I'm just hoping nobody sees this It goes.

Oh, she's inspired by this little bit. I said, no, no. No, this is the false part. I love it It's in red. Oh bad. Okay And he had gone about among the people preaching to them that which he termed to be the Word of God Bearing down against the church declaring unto the people that every priest and teacher ought to become popular And they ought not to labor with their hands, but that they ought to be supported by the people.

And he also testified unto the people that all mankind should be saved at the last day, and that they need not fear nor tremble, but that they might lift up their heads and rejoice. For the Lord had created all men, and had also redeemed all men. And in the end, all men should have eternal life. And it came to pass that he did teach these things so much that did, that many did believe on his words.

Even so many that they began to support him and give him money.

[00:23:31] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Thank you. Okay. What did you mark in those verses? What is true? What is false? And what is mixed?

[00:23:39] Chere Clark: Well, verse three was, um, mostly just false. Every priest and teacher ought to become popular. They ought not to labor with their hands. They ought to be supported by the people.

That was my read. I guess. It could be a little, um, mixed with every priest and teacher ought to become popular because you do want people to listen to you to a point, but it's popular in bringing them to Jesus Christ, right?

[00:24:10] Tammy Uzelac Hall: I just have the thought that they ought to be supported by the people. It doesn't say in what way right there, like maybe he could be meaning like raising your right arm to the square.

I support you or is it financial support that may be a little bit mixed right there. They ought to be supported by their people.

[00:24:29] Rebecca Frei: I've always thought of it in the financial sense, but

[00:24:33] Tammy Uzelac Hall: I had to until just now that I'm like, well, maybe that might be a little bit mixed because they're, that's what's so interesting about what's going on here is this person is teaching truth and faults and mixes it all up.

And so anybody listening to him, you could see how you'd go, Oh, well maybe, yeah, uh, okay. Cause he's not totally wrong, but he's not totally right. Did you mark anything green? I want to know that. .

[00:24:56] Rebecca Frei: My one little beacon of green was the Lord had created all men and had also redeemed all men and then it gets a little murky as it slides into in the end. All men should have eternal life He doesn't go in to say that we need to choose to follow the Lord and choose to accept the redemption he offers us and It's he makes it so finite. Oh, don't worry about it. You're redeemed. You're done. Like let's party and live this way instead There's no problems here, but we have to make a commitment to the Lord

[00:25:34] Chere Clark: I feel like he also was using those key words like redeemed and eternal life Thinking that people didn't really understand exactly what they meant.

Whereas eternal life is like being able to live with God again. But if you, but we know that God's through his atonement, atonement has given us all men immortality, right? And so that's really what he was talking about was immortality instead of eternal life. But. The people, you know, a lot of people wouldn't know the difference about that or, or get confused by that. So,

[00:26:16] Rebecca Frei: and they didn't have the footnotes that the scriptures do to help me figure that out. So it definitely is a, could be a very confusing phrase.

[00:26:26] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Gosh, absolutely. I just noticed at verse four when he says he testified. I mean, that word's powerful unto the people that all mankind should be saved at the last day and that they need not fear or tremble.

Um, for that one, I kind of put mixed because we are taught not to fear or tremble, but maybe you should a little bit. Um, I, yeah, well that was so tricky for me and all mankind should be saved at the last day.

[00:26:53] Chere Clark: Well, they will. The atonement will save us from physical death, but without faith and the, um, and repentance, we will not be saved from spiritual death. And again, he doesn't go into the big definition of the whole thing. He's just using those little key phrases that sounds so good to all of us. And a lot of times we don't go in depth to find out exactly what those words are meaning. And that's what he's counting on.

[00:27:26] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Oh, I like how you just said that, that we don't go into depth.

[00:27:29] Rebecca Frei: Yeah, I found it interesting as I'm looking at the colors in my scriptures, that it starts with the false. It moves into some mixed. Goes to true and then back to mixed but he puts his false right at the beginning And so I'm sure he kind of brought people in shocked them in there You know when you see an article that you're like, oh, that's not true And then you have to read it so to know that it's not true and be like, ha I know better I mean I sometimes accidentally fall into that but he puts his false in there first Because then people are shocked they're listening and then he starts mixing it You And they kind of forget that they were shocked.

And they start agreeing and they think, Oh yeah, I've been agreeing with him this whole time. He's making sense. So then later when he pulls back out that false, that you were immediately thinking, No, that's not true. You're in trouble because now everything's mixed.

[00:28:25] Chere Clark: It's like the frog in the water in a pot of boiling water that was slowly getting hotter and hotter. Yeah.

[00:28:31] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Becca, I've never viewed that in that way that you just described. And as you were talking about it, I'm like, that is a classic writing tactic. Writing one on one is the hook. What are you going to say to get your reader to continue to read your paper? I know that I do it all the time when I write stuff, I teach my kids to do it.

They're learning. I help them write papers for English. That's the most important part of anything you write is the hook. I think that's so cool. How you just taught us that, that he gets them with the hook with a lie because it intrigues you. And then you continue to listen. And then he, he made it murky and then some truth. Oh my gosh, that was good. So here's my question then. Does this exist today in the world we live in?

[00:29:15] Rebecca Frei: A hundred percent.

[00:29:16] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Cause you said some Becca, you kind of alluded to that. You're like, sometimes that happens to me. Tell me about this and, and what are some ways we can recognize like false teachings? Let's talk about this.

[00:29:27] Rebecca Frei: Yeah. Well, recently something I've noticed, you'll see those different videos, you know, tick talks or reels where they're saying we're interviewing students at BYU. For me, this is a huge one. We're interviewing students at BYU and we're going to see. If they know the name of the vice president and then, you know, people don't know or they say her name wrong and they're trying to prove that, you know, oh, students at BYU don't know. But then you've also got parts of the video where somebody does get it right and you see, Oh, see, yeah, we're good. And then they go to a million people who don't know. And so lots of different silly things. I guess maybe I should go for a lighter example.

[00:30:11] Tammy Uzelac Hall: No, I like this example because I've seen this, these videos so many times and they make me super frustrated and sad because they're making out LDS students to be complete idiots.

When the reality is there might be more right answers than wrong. I don't know. Yeah.

[00:30:24] Rebecca Frei: Even today, I was, I was laughing so hard at this. I was walking down to go grab some dinner and I passed somebody taking a video and they're asking the people, can you name countries in Africa? And the kid's kind of struggling.

He's saying, uh, is Cabo Verde in Africa, which it is. And he's just trying to think of these things. And I know, my sister and I became obsessed with knowing geography of the world. So I know most of the countries in Africa, and I can spout them off for ya. And that video's fine, cause it's just, well, we don't know our geography.

But then you get to more serious topics, and that's where the danger lies. So once again, you've got that hook that pulls you in with something light, something that maybe doesn't matter, and then it pulls you into something more.

[00:31:13] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Yeah. It's no good. It's murky.

[00:31:16] Rebecca Frei: Yep.

[00:31:17] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Oh, I thank you for sharing that.

[00:31:20] Chere Clark: I think, um, going along that same lines with social media is huge in taking little hooks and making us think, Oh, this is interesting.

This is, this is what I would believe, or I'd want to do. And then giving us murky thoughts about it that you have to think, well, that kind of sounds good, but is that right? Um, for instance, I get a lot of these like self help things that say, you know, come join this, uh, workshop or, or whatever. And, and we'll teach you how to.

Be successful and overcome, you know, challenges and just have a whole different frame of mind. But instead of directing you eventually to Christ, it takes Christ completely out of the equation. Yes. And, you know, as we know, You can, you definitely need to move forward and, and try different things, but nothing gives you more power.

And it's the, is your best partner in life that helps you become a better person is Jesus Christ. And so instead of spending all that money on those kinds of things, I don't know, I was just trying to think of, of examples that, of that idea of priestcraft and false teachings that we just come across all the time.

[00:32:52] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Well, I, I appreciate what you just said. And let's read this quote by Elder Eyring, because for me, I have come across the same thing both of you have. And I can tell you, I have had a very visceral reaction to things like this where the spirit's like, no, or it doesn't make you feel good. Or you just have this yucky.

And when I say yucky, it's not an obvious, it's just uncomfortable. Like, Oh, that I, Hmm. That doesn't feel right. That doesn't feel right. Yeah. Everyone knows that feeling. It doesn't have to be heavy. Like it's just sort of like, huh. And so here's what Elder Eyring has to say about these teachings and the hooks and what happens and how you can just get away from all of this. So Chere, will you read this quote for us?

[00:33:35] Chere Clark: The companionship of the Holy Ghost makes what is good more attractive and temptation less compelling. for having me. That alone should be enough to make us determined to qualify for the Spirit to be with us always. Just as the Holy Ghost strengthens us against evil, He also gives us the power to discern truth from falsehood.

The truth that matters most is verified only by revelation from God. Our human reason and the use of our Physical senses will not be enough. We live in a time when even the wisest will be hard pressed to distinguish truth from clever deception. That's Henry B. Eyring.

[00:34:16] Rebecca Frei: And I just say, after hearing that quote, the feeling of peace or calm that was in my mind versus when we're talking about what was hooking us, grabbing us in and confusing us, there was a big difference. And so that's how I know. That it's the Holy Ghost teaching me that something is good and something that will help me.

[00:34:43] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Oh, Becca. Thank you for witnessing of that. I will second what Becca said. It was a very different feeling as we talked about the Holy Ghost. So thank you so much. Okay. So this story right here.

He goes on to do something that is just so heartbreaking. I'm going to tell you what he does and what the result of

that action is in the next segment.

Segment 4

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[00:35:12] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Let's get back into

Alma chapter one. And here's what happens. So this guy, we don't have a name for him yet, but boy, he sure is awful. And he's walking around and he's teaching. He even establishes a church in verse six after the manner of his preaching. I always wonder if it was like an official church.

Official church or is it a group of people in his garage? I don't know. I just thought the subtlety of that. Sometimes in our own life, in the world we live in today, people establish their own organization or their own group of people. And I wonder if it was subtle. 'cause he has his own followers and as he's going about, we get a man in verse eight.

Becca read this verse. 'cause this, in fact, I want you to read verses eight and nine. Here's the story.

[00:35:51] Rebecca Frei: Now the name of the man was Gideon and it was he who was an instrument in the hands of God in delivering the people of limb high out of bondage. Now, because Gideon withstood him with the words of God, he was wroth with Gideon, and drew his sword, and began to smite him.

Now Gideon being stricken with many years, therefore he was not able to withstand his blows. Therefore he was slain by the sword.

[00:36:12] Tammy Uzelac Hall: There it is. We talked about it last week, but this sweet man Gideon passes away, and all he was trying to do was defend the Lord in verse 7. He was trying to tell him you tried to withstand him with the words of God.

I like that at the end of seven, he admonished him with the words of God and this man did not like it. So he kills Gideon.

[00:36:30] Chere Clark: I can't believe, like here's this very charismatic man that, you know, Has all these people that are taken by his words, and he's wise and all these things, and he turns to murder so quickly.

Right. A frail little old man. But yeah, it, it made me think about what would cause him to actually, you know, want to kill Gideon. And I think it comes down to the loss of his power and the loss of money that he would no longer have. Ooh. No, I like that. That would, that would be, that's what I thought would give him the reason to actually, um, turn to murder. Cause that, that's fascinating to me that that's where it went

[00:37:22] Tammy Uzelac Hall: and how fast it went. Right. Yeah.

[00:37:24] Chere Clark: Yeah.

[00:37:26] Rebecca Frei: I mean, it really shows, you know, if someone's going to come up against your beliefs, what is your reaction? Yeah. Yeah. Testified of God. Nahor got angry and became violent and killed a man when he couldn't withstand somebody's questions and somebody else's beliefs being different than his own and that's gonna show who's the disciple of Christ and Who's a disciple of anything?

What are you a disciple of? That is Ultimately, what your actions will tell.

[00:38:03] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Yeah. Well, and Becca. You told us his name. That's in verse 15. Let's all go there and mark it. Put a square around his name. It says it came to pass. They took him and his name was Nehor, but before they take him, what is so fascinating to me about all of this is they take him to Alma and inverse 11.

It says he pled for himself with much boldness. I would love to have known what he said right there as he pleads for himself, you know, and the wording with much boldness, I almost wonder if there was like this, the word boldness right there is this hint of like arrogance. You know, and so he's defending his actions.

How could you?

[00:38:42] Chere Clark: Well, and he, he definitely wants more of the approval of men and he doesn't really care about the approval of God at that point, which you see that he finally does when it comes down to. his deathbed confession, right? But don't go there yet. Look at verse 12. yet. Okay, Chere, read verse 12 for us.

But Alma said unto him, Behold, this is the first time that priestcraft has been introduced among this people. And behold, thou art not only guilty of priestcraft, but hast endeavored to enforce it by the sword. And were priestcraft to be enforced among this people, it would prove their entire destruction.

[00:39:24] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Okay, let's put a cross reference next to that quickly. We're going to put second Nephi chapter 26 verse 29. So write that to the outside. Second Nephi chapter 26 verse 29. And let's go there. I think it's fascinating that this is the first time it's introduced to these people in the first year of the reign of judges.

Like Satan's not holding back your one. Let's do this, right? He's going to just get people. So second Nephi 26 29 is where it's first mentioned in the book of Mormon. And here's what it has to say about it. And Becca, can you read that for us?

[00:39:56] Rebecca Frei: Yes.

[00:39:57] Tammy Uzelac Hall: And this chapter right here is telling us a little bit about Satan in verse 29 and some of his tactics that he has and the things that he uses.

It's not second Nephi 28 that lists Satan's tactics, but here are some of the things that he does that are evil. So second Nephi chapter 26, verse 29,

[00:40:15] Rebecca Frei: he commanded that there shall be no priest crafts for behold priest priest crafts are that men preach and set themselves up for a light unto the world.

That they may get gain and praise of the world, but they seek not the welfare of Zion.

[00:40:28] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Thank you. Right there. That is just this idea of this running argument for God's graciousness. And these are Satan's tactics in action right here among the people. So he's commanding that there can be no priest crafts and there weren't for a while until here we go. So tell me about the word priest craft. What immediately comes to your mind when you hear that word, what do you think of manipulation

[00:40:50] Chere Clark: Yeah, I think of, um, people, uh, drawing you away from Christ, um, drawing them to drawing people to them and really trying to be popular and say the things that everybody wants to hear and be that person. Yeah, absolutely. It's all about themselves and not about others.

[00:41:23] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Thank you for both of you for saying that. I was struck with this word. I looked it up because I'm like, I know what a priest craft is. It's we've been warned about this forever. So I use the 1828 Webster's dictionary, which is my favorite. And I was struck because at the very end it says this definition, pre scraft is to impose on the credulity of others. And then of course I had to look up credulity because I'm

[00:41:46] Rebecca Frei: like, what are we talking about here? Like credibility.

[00:41:50] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Yes, exactly. So I looked it up. So it's to impose a tendency to be too ready to believe that something is real or true. Now think about this for a minute. a tendency for people to just want to believe that what they want to believe in something. And so somebody comes along and teaches a priest craft, meaning something that this group of people, they just want to hear something. Now we live in a world that this is rampant, but what was amazing to me.

As I looked up at the American Psychological Association, there's this great article that talks about the human brain and why we fall victim to priest crafts or why we fall victim to information. That's not true. And here are the three things I found. There are three reasons why our brains do this.

Number one is called the epistemic motives. This is where we have a need for knowledge and certainty and a desire to have information. Cause there's just not enough information out there and we're just craving more information. That's the first reason that we will believe in priest crafts. The second is existential motives, which is people have a need to feel safe and secure in the world that they live in.

So if you have information that's going to make them feel safe or secure, they're going to believe it. And the last one is social motives. This is a desire for people to feel good about themselves as individuals and to feel good about themselves in terms of the groups they belong to. And so if you have somebody who's coming at the right time that has information that fills the needs of information based, Safety based and a sense of community.

You're golden. You're in. And that is the recipe for priestcraft. For false information that isn't true. Imposes on the credulity of others, a tendency to be ready to just believe in something because you want to believe so badly.

[00:43:37] Chere Clark: I think our world, so many people are looking for that. I mean, they are so quick to find that.

And I think social media is huge in being able to distribute that kind of information. falsehoods or that kind of feeling of community that they want and not really thinking about what that community represents. They just love being part of it.

[00:44:06] Rebecca Frei: Yes. That's why I think manipulation was the first word I thought of is that, you know, it's a control of information.

and expressing to people what they want to hear. And it's not sharing all of the facts. We go back to, you know, what was true, what was false, what was mixed. They share only the true parts that support them. They're going to mix things up so that it sounds right, so that you'll believe and you'll follow them. And I see it in a lot of places and in simple places too, even commercials, you know, smiling, happy people using a product, It's supposed to say, Oh, if I use that product, I will be happy when it's, you know, just, I don't know, detergent or something.

[00:44:59] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Totally. Yes. Well, and I, and I'm looking at this and I'm thinking, isn't it interesting that, um, there's no room for faith.

Because faith doesn't have answers or information and faith sometimes makes you feel insecure about a situation. And so I think we live in the society where if I can't have all the answers, then it must not be true. And we've been led by a wonderful prophet who is constantly telling us, again, like you said, Chere, the Holy Ghost, we will not be able to survive spiritually without the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost.

That's why we were promised to go to the temples in the last conference. And I love how the prophet just said, there is nothing that will help you to overcome. I mean, I just think it's amazing. Like you could just put that talk and then put nothing will help you overcome priestcraft and then attending the temple temple.

[00:45:46] Chere Clark: Don't you think too, that that is why so many temples are being Built is because we need a place of refuge and a place to charge our Holy ghost time, you know in in the temple to get it to where it's you know back at to a hundred percent all the time because we we are in a battle like we talked about earlier and Satan and his followers love to take lies and mix them with truth and beguile us all the time.

[00:46:21] Rebecca Frei: So absolutely there is a place we can rely on for pure truth. That is the temple.

[00:46:28] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Yeah. Get to the temple. Oh, I think that's awesome. The temple. Okay. So let's go back into Alma chapter one and we're going to finish up Nehor. We're going to find out what happened to him. Let's read verse 15 and Becca, will you read that for us?

[00:46:42] Rebecca Frei: And it came to pass that they took him and his name was Nehor and they carried him upon the top of the hill, Manti. And there he was caused, or rather did acknowledge, between the heavens and the earth, that what he had taught to the people was contrary to the word of God. And there he suffered an ignominious death.

[00:46:59] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Thank you. And Chere, you kind of alluded to it earlier that this would happen. And so there we go. That's the end of Nihur. And we love the word ignominious, highlight that, mark it. Did you anyone look it up?

[00:47:11] Rebecca Frei: No, I did. What does it mean? Like, sounds like anonymous, but it's shameful.

[00:47:18] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Interesting.

[00:47:19] Chere Clark: I wondered about the confession at the end and if he thought, if he, it's just like somebody being sentenced before a judge and they give their statement and try to show that, Oh, you know, I now regret what I've done and I'm sorry and everything.

And if that is exactly what he was trying to do at that point.

[00:47:43] Tammy Uzelac Hall: To save himself. Because remember he pled for himself with much boldness that didn't work. There's a level of maybe humility there or forced humility. Maybe,

[00:47:52] Chere Clark: I don't know. It felt, it feels a little forced to me at this point. He knows he's going to meet God in just a few minutes.

[00:48:00] Rebecca Frei: Oh yeah. Well, and I, I wonder at that confession, especially considered. Considering he suffers this shameful or publicly humiliating death. And that those who witness this know that this is not a man who is apologizing to God. He's trying to save his own skin.

And so, to them, it is embarrassing and it's humiliating because they could not, these people that are witnessing this could not comprehend denying God like that and pretending to come to God. Mm hmm. Because Because their lives are with God.

[00:48:39] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Becca. I like that you just brought up the people who were there who witnessed it.

So let's do this in the next segment, we're going to talk about those people

and what happened because of this death.

Segment 5

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[00:49:11] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Here's all these people and they just got done watching Nehor suffer an ignominious death. You would think they would learn and go, Oh, Maybe, uh, maybe we were wrong. Maybe we follow the wrong guy. And then we have verse 16. Becca, will you read that for us?

[00:49:26] Rebecca Frei: Yes. Nevertheless, this did not put an end to the spreading of priestcraft through the land.

For there were many who loved the vain things of the world, and they went forth preaching false doctrines. And this they did for the sake of riches and honor.

[00:49:41] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Thank you. And so we have this. It didn't end. There continues to be this prescript. Verse 17 is a little bit haunting with the word pretend. We read verse 17 also, Becca.

[00:49:52] Rebecca Frei: Nevertheless, they durst not lie if it were known for fear of the law, for liars were punished. Therefore, they pretended to preach according to their belief. And now the law could have no power on any man for his belief.

[00:50:05] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Yeah, I just highlighted, I put pretended with quotations around it, like they pretended to preach according to their belief because you could believe what you wanted. And then they, they're just trying to circumvent all the laws to continue to keep up this ruse.

[00:50:19] Rebecca Frei: But what an uncomfortable life to lead. You know, you're doing something wrong and you're just convincing yourself that it's, you know, better to live for this vanity, the honor, the riches, the riches and honor.

You've just got to be feeling yucky the whole time and you're trying to fill that void, the void of not feeling the spirit. You're trying to fill it with riches. Yes. And they're looking in the wrong place.

[00:50:44] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Absolutely. So bracket off verses 19 through 22, because now as a result of the priest crafts, we are going to have some religious contention.

So Chere, can you please read verses 19 through 20 for us?

[00:50:57] Chere Clark: But it came to pass that whosoever did not belong to the church of God began to persecute those that did belong to the church of God and had taken upon them the name of Christ. Yea, they did persecute them and afflict them with all manners of words and this because of their humility, because they were not proud in their own eyes and because they did impart the word of God one with another without money and without price.

[00:51:24] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Thank you. Okay. Now, underlying church of God. We're going to connect it. We're going to draw a line and connect it to in verse 21 it says, now there was a strict law among the people of the church. So I connected church of God to people of the church that there should not any man belonging to the church arise and persecute those that did not belong to the church and that there should be no persecution among themselves.

Nevertheless, there were many among them who began to be proud. I put a square around them and drew it back to people of the church. Cause now there are many of the people of the church who began to be proud and began to contend warmly with their adversaries, even unto blows. Yea, they would smite one another with their fists.

So Can you imagine, I mean, now listen, I've gotten to, I did a little Bible bashing on my mission. It never turned out good. I'll tell you. One experience in particular where I was yelling at the person and I walked away from that and the spirit was like, how'd that go? Did you feel good about that? I know. And I vowed I would never Bible bash again. I didn't even know the Bible well enough to, I don't know who I, what was I thinking? I didn't even know Christ came to America. Like I had just learned that, right? And here I am on my mission thinking I know the Bible. It's like, that's a thing right here. Can you imagine people punching each other? Saints punching non believers. That's chaos, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Absolute chaos. I can't even imagine that. In fact, I've wrote chaos right next to it. It's just chaos. And, but here is the result of this chaos. This is sad. We're going to read verses 24 and 25. And so Becca, will you read that for us?

[00:52:55] Rebecca Frei: For the hearts of many were hardened and their names were blotted out that they were remembered no more among the people of God.

And also many withdrew themselves from among them. Now this was a great trial to those that did stand fast in the faith. Nevertheless, they were steadfast and immovable and keeping the commandments of God. And they bore with patience the persecution which was heaped upon them.

[00:53:17] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Here's my question. As a result of this chaos, there are many people of the church of God who leave. Their names are blotted out. They withdrew themselves from among them. But 25 struck me. It was a great trial to those that did stand fast in the faith. And I want to know from either one of you, do you have an experience, what is it like to live among those who no longer believe or believe in God? Do either of you have an experience can relate to that verse?

[00:53:48] Rebecca Frei: You know, this has been a lot of my young adult life. Um, you know, growing up with friends, elementary school, middle school, high school, who did believe. And then as we all went our separate ways into college, a lot of them. Choosing not to continue on this path of following God. And so many of them, well, really all of them are still good people and I love them and I care about them, but I know that they do not care for the gospel like I do, and they do not trust in the Lord anymore.

And I had an experience last summer. I moved to St. Louis to do an internship. And so I was away from family. And I'm really big on family, so it was very hard for me to be away from everyone. I remember one evening, I came home from work, and I was just pondering life, the scriptures. And it suddenly just came over me, the fact that I cannot deny Christ.

And I cannot do my life without Him. I don't know how my friends who have left the gospel of Jesus Christ, do life every day. I don't know where they find their joy or the ability to keep strong through trials. And it makes my heart break and I want to be there for them. But I also want to respect where they're at in their relationship with God and Christ.

And so, it's hard to not, you know, preach at people when I know that that's my source for my struggles. But to them, they can't see Christ as being relief in their life right now. And so, I do what I can to commiserate, to love, to support. But for me, and for my testimony, I know that God is the answer.

[00:56:00] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Hmm. Becca, it hit me so hard in my heart when you said, Beautifully. I cannot do life without Christ. Yeah. The spirit was so strong.

[00:56:12] Rebecca Frei: That is a repeated lesson in my life.

[00:56:16] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Thank you for sharing that. What about you, Chere?

[00:56:20] Chere Clark: This is actually, um, a topic that comes up all the time with my girlfriends because we all have children that have walked away from the church at this point and trying to decide how to Um, be a parent and, and, um, and parent them through this is hard.

But when my son left the church, it's been quite a few years ago. I was so sad. I was so heartbroken. It's the first time I could really say that I knew what it felt like to have a broken heart, it hurt, and I was just so sad, and every Sunday I'd come home and I would just cry. And I finally realized that I can't live my life like that, it doesn't work, and I realized that my children are on their own faith journey, and I'm on mine.

And God will loves them and he will help them on their faith journey in ways that I have no idea. So the thing that I, I kind of had a paradigm shift in the way I was going to handle it. And I just thought there's not going to be any empty chairs at my table ever. And they're going to feel like my home is a safe place for them.

And, um, I would. Listen more than I would talk and they know how my testimony, they know how I feel about Christ. They've heard it all their life. And. And so I wouldn't preach to them. I would listen and we would, um, I would require respect from them for my beliefs and I would in turn, respect them. And our relationship with my children that have walked away from the church is so much better.

And I cannot say that. The Lord is not using them in a way that is going to eventually, um, help bring about a lot of good that this is their mission in life, but I just love, and I listen. And I respect, and as I was listening to conference, uh, there was a couple of things that stood out was, um, Elder Updorf said that we need to acknowledge and respect the beliefs of the people that don't believe the same way as we do.

And, uh, That is so true. I just had a, uh, a conversation with my daughter not very long ago, and she was explaining how she felt about everything and why she felt the way she did. And the spirit told me, stop, do not talk, just listen. And I just listened. And there were times I wanted to say, but, but, but. But I knew I wasn't supposed to.

I was just to listen. And, um, that did more for our relationship than anything I have done since. Because she felt like She was heard and she was seen by me and that was important. And I, I think, you know, that's the building bridges that, um, Elder Stevenson, I think, talked about. I think the biggest thing for me is that Going back to sister Runea's talk last conference, I stand by the tree, I stand by the tree and I love and I beckon, but I do it in a way that doesn't take away their agency, that I respect their agency.

[01:00:24] Tammy Uzelac Hall: So I wrote down when you said, I love, listen, and respect, but beautiful words to describe your experience. So thank you both of you for sharing that. I appreciate your answers. So let's go into Alma chapter two then, because after this experience, we are now in the fifth year of the reign of the judges.

And I asked Chere to tell us this story quickly, Chere, sum up Alma chapter two and three, if you can, for us, what's going on here, Nehor's dead. People are leaving the church. It's complete chaos. And now what's going on?

[01:00:54] Chere Clark: Well, okay, I'll be quick. Amlici in verse one, it says a very cunning man, yea, a wise man as to the wisdom of the world.

So that tells you a lot. He, he believes the same thing that Nehor did. And, um, he is He's, he's very charismatic and he sees a good thing and decides, I want to be king because look at all the people that I am drawing to me. And um, I have all this influence and power over all of these people. And I feel like he was really seduced by that, by that power and that influence.

And it's, you know, granted, it's hard to stand up against those kinds of, uh, Temptations. Right. But it tells you right there that he was wise by the, in the wisdom of the world and not in the wisdom of God. So, um, He would be drawn to that and it says in verse three, uh, this was alarming to the people of the church and also to all those who had not been drawn away after the persuasions of Amlici.

So here they are worried because his followers are saying we want him to be our king. And they know that, um, that he's going to take away religious liberties and their, um, freedoms that Messiah had helped them gain. And, and here, what was it only a few years? What even was it even five years that was, we already have somebody trying to take that away.

I think that's so interesting. In reading

[01:02:44] Rebecca Frei: that little part, I noticed, you know, immediately. When you get this contention of, Amlici has this group of followers, they want him to be king. The people go, okay, we need to vote on it. That is our standard practice, that is the law. And people were trusting in the law to protect them.

Because, you know, years passed before judges. If a new king arose, it would immediately go to battle. But the people said, good, we can vote on this. Um, and so when the people get the results of the vote back, Amlici is not the king, they're relieved. But then Amlici and his friends just revert back to that king mentality that they're already at and decide, all right, we're going to go to war.

But the majority of the people were trusting in the law.

[01:03:34] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Hmm. That's a powerful point. I'm grateful that you brought that up, Becca. And as a result, now we've got two groups of people. We used to just be Nephites, but now in verse 11, We've got Amlicites and Nephites. This is dangerous. Two forces against each other.

And what does this lead to? Chere

[01:03:52] Chere Clark: I think it's so interesting because, um, Amlicite , stirs up those who were in his favor to anger against those who were not in his favor. So contention, one of Satan's greatest. greatest temptations for us is contention. And so his people take up arms against their brethren and this that he did that they might subject them to him.

And again, power in influence and they go to war. They go to war, and they actually, the um, in verse 17 it says, And the Amlicites did contend with the Nephites with great strength, insomuch that many of the Nephites did fall before the Amlicites. So, It's scary. It's scary times, you know, and I love this part in, um, verse 18, nevertheless, the Lord did strengthen the hand of the Nephites that they slew the Amlicites with great slaughter.

They began to flee before them. And there we talk about, The Lord strengthening you and the power you have. And we heard about that over and over in conference about our covenants and what it does in binding us to God and giving us that conduit for strength and power. And that's exactly what happened there.

And so they are killing the Amlicites and they pursue them all day long and it Comes to be nighttime and they go camp and Alma says, Hey, I need you. Some of you spies for me to go check on the amylocytes and see what's going on so we can be prepared for what's going to happen in the morning and so they go and and the next morning here comes the spies back and they're just just They're astonished is what the, what one of the words were.

It was in verse 23 and it said, and it came to pass that on the morrow, they returned into the camp of the Nephites in great haste being greatly astonished and struck with much fear because they saw the Amlicites and the Lamanites have come together and they are. More numerous than the sands of the sea is what they said.

Oh, how scary would that be? . They have come upon them to destroy them. And um, then it says in verse 27 and 28, I love this part that says being as numerous almost as it were, as the sands of the sea came upon them to destroy them. Nevertheless, and this, I think this is what you said, um, at the beginning, Nevertheless, the Nephites, being strengthened by the hand of the Lord, having prayed mightily to him that he would deliver them out of the hands of their enemies, therefore the Lord did hear their cries and did strengthen them and the Lamanites and the Amlicites did fall before them.

They contended with one another and then they They face Alma with the sword and Amla, Amlasai is trying to kill Alma. And Alma says in verse 30, and I love this, and it was reminiscent of President Holland's talk to me at conference where he said, And it came to pass that Alma, being a man of God, being exercised with much faith, cried, saying, O Lord, have mercy and spare my life.

That I may be an instrument in thy hands to save and preserve this people. And he was able to kill Amlici. But doesn't that remind you exactly what Elder Holland talked about on Saturday?

[01:07:33] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Oh, absolutely. Chere. Thank you. Yeah. And then in verse 31, he slew Amlici with the sword. With the sword. Yep. Yep. You did an excellent job. Now the thing about this story that's so sad though, is that you think that none of the Nephites died, but many did. Many Nephites died, many Lamanites, many Amlicites. So many. In fact, in Alma chapter three, verse two, many women and children had been slain with the sword and also many of their flocks.

I mean, so many, in fact, verse one says the number of the slain were not numbered because of the greatness of their number. There were so many killed in these, in this war. So many Nephites, so many Amlicites, so many Lamanites. In fact, so many turned to Alma chapter three, verse 26. We have a Hebraism right here in Alma chapter three, verse 26.

It says, and in one year were thousands and tens of thousands of souls sent to the eternal world that they might reap their reward according to their works, whether they were good or whether they were bad to reap eternal happiness or eternal misery. According to the spirit, which they listed to obey, whether it be a good spirit or a bad one in verse 26 highlight, there were thousands and tens of thousands.

That's a Hebraism. It's called number parallelism. So again, Joseph Smith would not have known this. And this is, this is throughout the Bible. And what this means is in order for it to be a Hebraic number parallelism, here's what has to exist. The numbers must be presented in two lines, with the second line increasing the first number by one.

The exaggerated comparison heightens the sense of multitude, lending greater importance to the thing being described. So I think it's a way of saying hyperbole, which I love hyperbole. I live in it, but I like how it's right there. Thousands and tens of thousands. That is a Hebraism. And in our show notes, we'll put other references.

You'll find this in Job and you'll find this in the book of Psalms. So we have all of these people. All of these people dying. And then we get to Alma chapter four, and we're going to talk about some of these verses in the next segment.

Segment 6

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[01:09:44] Tammy Uzelac Hall: In Alma chapter four,

this is where we are. And we're going to each take a turn reading a verse and we're going to read verses one through four. So we'll go Becca, Chere, and then me. So we can set up what's happening now. With all of this death, all of this sadness that's going on. And remember, we just recently learned that many women and children were killed.

This is tragic. It is horrific. It is awful. It is trauma at its worst. nth degree. So let's start with you. Go ahead, Becca.

[01:10:11] Rebecca Frei: Now it came to pass in the sixth year of the reign of the judges over the people of Nephi, there were no contentions nor wars in the land of Zarahemla.

[01:10:20] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Let's all just take a breath right there.

[01:10:22] Chere Clark: Okay.

[01:10:23] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Peace. Put a little peace sign there. Happy day.

[01:10:26] Chere Clark: Go ahead, Chere. But the people were afflicted, yea, greatly afflicted, for the loss of their brethren, and also for the loss of their flocks and herds, and also for the loss of their fields of grain, which were trodden underfoot and destroyed by the Lamanites.

[01:10:43] Tammy Uzelac Hall: And so great were their afflictions, that every soul had cause to mourn. And they believed that it was the judgments of God sent upon them because of their wickedness and their abominations. Therefore, they were They were awakened to a remembrance of their duty,

[01:10:58] Rebecca Frei: and they began to establish the church more fully.

Yea, and many were baptized in the waters of Sidon and were joined to the church of God. Yea, they were baptized by the hand of Alma, who had been consecrated the high priest over the people of the church by the hand of his father Alma.

[01:11:14] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Thank you. Chere, this goes back to what you keep teaching us and your statement, Becca, that you made.

I cannot do life without Jesus, like in their absolute affliction and sadness. You can imagine how I just, I like every soul had caused to mourn. And when I hear more and I think of grief, like everyone's grieving, it's so sad. And they turned to God, that idea of being awakened to a remembrance of their duty.

Why they're here, what's going on, and putting Jesus back at the center of all of this. It reminded me of this really awesome talk by Henry B. Eyring. He gave it to BYU students in 1990. Becca, you weren't even alive then. That's what's crazy. Uh, I was sure he was, I was very much alive. This talk is so awesome.

It's a quick two minute little quip and there's a video on YouTube that you can see or on the BYU Speeches website. We're going to go ahead and just play the audio for you. Cause I want you to hear this talk and we're going to apply it to our life and the lives of the people in Alma chapter four.

[01:12:17] Henry B. Eyring: Let me encourage you by telling you a story.

He was told to be by my father. He got an invitation to work on the steak farm. And the assignment was to weed in a field of onions. He had bone cancer so badly in his hips that he could hardly move. Dad never told me when he told the story about how hard it was, but I met several people who were with him that day.

But the pain was so great that Dad was pulling himself along on his stomach with his elbows. He couldn't kneel. Everyone who talked to him, at least who's talked to me, has remarked how he smiled and laughed and talked happily with them as they worked in that field of onions. He said he was there at the end of the day and sometime after the work was finished, the onions were all weeded, all the weeds were pulled.

And someone told him, Henry, good heavens, you didn't pull those weeds. Those weeds were sprayed just two days ago and they were going to die anyway. And dad just roared. He thought that was the funniest thing. That's the place where dad laughed. He thought it was a great joke on himself. His great heroic weeding.

I said, dad, how could you take it so pleasantly? He said, oh, I wasn't there for the weeds.

Now, you'll be in an onion patch much of your life. So will I. It will be hard to see our work being of any value at all, and sometimes it won't go well. But you didn't come for the weeds. You came for the Savior. And if you pray, and if you choose to be clean, and if you choose to follow God's servants, You will be able to work and wait long enough to bring down the powers of heaven.

[01:14:38] Rebecca Frei: That's a beautiful video.

[01:14:40] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Tell me why you think it's beautiful.

[01:14:41] Rebecca Frei: You could tell how hard it was for Henry B. Iron's father to weed that garden, how much effort it took him, how much humility it took him. And I'm sure in the course of that day, multiple people said, Why are you weeding? Like, you're not in any state to do this.

It's okay. We have other people who can do it. But he had received an assignment and he was going to follow it through. And then, there you go. At the end of the day, I'm sure people had been sent home early. At the end of the day, he's still there. And he's told, wait, those weeds didn't need picking. They were going to die anyway.

You wasted your time. You wasted your effort. But, his father's able to teach him. Change that into such a beautiful teaching moment while he laughs about it, that he's not there for the weeds. He's there for the Savior, and he's there because of duty and honor, not because of silly little weeds. And I think we can apply that in our own lives, where we feel like we're jumping through the hoops.

We make mistakes. We fall short. Maybe we do something right. It just doesn't even feel valued or noticed. or you can't see a blessing from it. In the end, it's not about why you went through those motions or put in effort here or there. It's about why you went to those lengths, why you turned.

[01:16:25] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Yeah, thank you, Becca. I like how you used the word duty in there. He went there for duty and the idea that these people were awakened to a remembrance of their duty.

[01:16:34] Chere Clark: You know, it reminded me of a story, um, from church history on, um, Mary Fielding Smith, who had come to the Salt Lake Valley and she was so poor.

She was Hyrum Smith's widow. And she went to the tithing office to pay her tithing, and the man that, uh, was taking the tithing, which was potatoes, a load of potatoes, she had brought some potatoes, he said, Oh, Sister Smith, you don't need to pay any tithing. And she was. So distraught about that and said, you cannot tell me not to pay my tithing because I need those blessings and I want those blessings.

And it's more important for me to be, to have, to have that opportunity. Um, to show the Lord, you know, my love and keep that commandment then and I will be fine. Um, so it kind of reminded me of that kind of idea of the same thing is, yeah, it's going to be hard and stuff, but. Don't take away those blessings.

I'm still going to do that. And that's where his heart was. It didn't matter that those weeds had been sprayed with, before his, his heart was in the place where it needed to be. And that's all that mattered.

[01:17:56] Tammy Uzelac Hall: I cry every time I hear that. When he says, you're going to be much of your life will be in an onion patch.

And then he says, I'm not here for the weeds. I'm here for Jesus. I cry every time because that reminder, that is what it's like to be awakened to remembrance of their duty. And yes, you can grieve and be sad, but to think of where these people are and where their hearts are and hear their saying, we're not here for the weeds though.

We're here for Jesus. This is one of the most beautiful examples to me because I don't know how fast I would be to just say to be awakened to remember my duty. I'm grieving. I'm sad. I don't want to start preaching the gospel and baptizing people. I want to just, you know, drink Coke and eat milk duds. Huh?

And so I love the idea of this. And I put to the other scriptures off to the outside. Like I'm not here for the weeds. If I can remember that and reason why I'm here, would you believe me? You both, if you have done such a phenomenal job of teaching that you have made Christ the center of every one of our discussions today.

If we could do more of that, wow. I think that we would all do well to really overcome priest crafts. I think if we made Jesus the focal point of all our conversations, we probably, I would like to think we'd be immune maybe a little bit from priest crafts from the hook, as you guys have said. Yes, for sure.

[01:19:17] Rebecca Frei: I have a couple thoughts and something I noticed. is that one of the battles took place at the River Sidon. And then they are baptized at the River Sidon. Which I think is pretty powerful because they could have, you know, chosen to avoid that place, avoid the past, but they chose to take it and make it a holy place.

And they learned from their past. They had to experience all of that, and it helped make their convictions stronger. When they chose to turn to the Lord in their sorrow, looking for comfort and peace, it made it all the more meaningful. I'm sure learning about eternal life with their families that they've lost, quite possibly in that battle at the Riverside Inn.

[01:20:21] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Oh, yeah.

[01:20:22] Rebecca Frei: They now had so much opportunity. Because they were baptized in the Riverside and

[01:20:28] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Oh, absolutely. Becca. Thank you for pointing that out. That was powerful.

[01:20:33] Chere Clark: You know, there was another thought that I had when you talked about how we can avoid priest crafts or the hook by turning to Jesus. And turning to Jesus is turning to His words.

And we read how the prophets talk about how the Book of Mormon is going to teach us how to. Um, avoid the false doctrines and learn about them. And just even reading this story about Nehor and the way he taught the people teaches us what, what we need to avoid and what we need to look out for and the different kinds of tactics that Satan uses on priest craft.

So how important it is to turn to Jesus and to his words, um, to avoid that hook. Absolutely.

[01:21:23] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Wow. Thank you to both of you. So here's my final question then, because this is the summer of joy, we're making that our focus based off the scripture in James chapter one, verse two, where he says, count it all joy when you fall into divers temptations or another way to translate that is counted all joy when you fall into many trials and afflictions.

And I just want to know from you too, how have you done that in the past? How do you count it joy when you're facing trials?

[01:21:51] Rebecca Frei: That is not always easy. Um, I don't think it's ever easy. Um, a couple things come to mind. I've actually been talking a bit with my dad about this. You know, just how do I pick myself up when I'm feeling down, when I'm stressed out of my mind with school and so busy and not able to get everything done or My dating life or lack thereof is stressful.

You know, I have these righteous desires But just you know things aren't happening and it's so easy to wallow and to just get down and Think why me and you just feel this void creeping in and you know, this self loathing that's not gonna take you anywhere and We were talking and then I actually received a priesthood blessing from my father, which was It's very helpful to me, but there was advice in there to choose to let, to choose to fill the voids with something other than wallowing or, you know, social media or food or whatever our comfort thing may be, but we need to make a decision to fill it with something better.

And sometimes reading the scriptures when you're feeling down isn't necessarily suddenly going to make you feel better. It's not, even though it sounds like it should, sometimes you're just not in that mindset. So maybe you need to focus on different ways you can connect with the Lord. And for me, that's by creating and doing crafts and projects because I believe that's one of the godly talents I possess and that it's a gift from Him that I can create and make all these things.

And so I can choose to take the hard moments. And focus on doing something I know will make me happy. And I know will point me toward the Lord.

[01:24:00] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Thank you. Beautifully said. Wow. Thank you, Becca.

[01:24:03] Chere Clark: But it made me, it made me think about your dad's perspective there because being a parent and, um, listening to the trials that your children are going through is probably one of the hardest things you can do as a parent.

And I always say that we're always in the process. The trunk of the car and your child is driving and you're getting just shook up to death and, and, and it's terrible back there and there's nothing you can do, but you're always there in the trunk

[01:24:40] Tammy Uzelac Hall: and your screams are muffled.

[01:24:41] Chere Clark: Yeah. They're, you know, I can't even hear you, but, um, So that it's hard to sometimes be joyful when you especially have a child that's going through like a mental health challenge or something, and you just feel like you have no control with that.

And that's when you have to change your perspective and turn to the Lord, right? And remember, Jesus has the answers. Jesus is always the answer. Um, And trust him. So I think that's harder when, uh, you don't have so much control, but when you do, when the, when the challenges are about your, um, challenges that are personal, you do have a lot more control and finding joy in that and having that eternal perspective.

And, and I thought of a couple of, um, situations when I, um, was young, I was My parents were called to be, um, mission leaders, and I was 14 and it was rough. I look in my journal and it says the fir one day it says, oh, I love it here, and the next day, oh, I hate it here. And it just went back and forth was rough.

But the thing that got me through it was seeing God's hand in my life. And I remember as a young girl having. Circumstances and situations that happened and think there is no way that would have happened without divine intervention. God made that happen. And so he is absolutely aware of me. And I think turning, um, and having gratitude and recognizing that the Lord knows your name and that he's going to meet you where you're at, no matter what.

And. Um, to illustrate that point, I was 16 and president, um, Spencer W. Kimball, um, was a prophet and he had come to a, um, a mission regional conference and I met him, he was with my parents and, and, He asked to meet me and he said, sister Jones, I really want to know what it's like for you here as being a mission president's daughter.

And he said, won't you come and sit and have lunch with me and, and my wife. Oh, wow. And he sat, I sat and had lunch with, they had a whole big group and had lunch and he just asked me question after question. And wanted to know really how I was feeling. And I just, again, I knew the Lord knew that's what I needed because I needed to be seen and to have that kind of gratitude.

And then a few years back I was diagnosed with cancer and I thought, I am not going to let cancer take my joy away from me, and at the time when I was diagnosed, I was training to do a hundred mile bike race, and um, actually it was just a bike ride, I was not racing. I remember going to have radiation, and um, They'd asked me, what, what do you do?

And I said, Oh, you know, today I've got to ride this many miles on my bike. Cause I'm getting ready for this a hundred mile bike ride. And they were just so amazed, but that goal got me through it. And I will never forget the feeling of going past the finish line on that a hundred mile bike ride and knowing that cancer did not steal my joy.

And it's all about gratitude. And it's also having that. Eternal perspective and to be able to have the joy and when you have control over that and it's not somebody else's trial that you're a part of, it's a lot easier to have that. So

[01:28:52] Tammy Uzelac Hall: thank you. Beautiful. That was, ah. I love that story. I love that story about the race and Spencer W. Kimball. How sweet is that? Oh, thank you, Chere.

[01:29:02] Chere Clark: He came up to like my shoulder. I'm, I'm so, I know he's tiny man. He was so tiny. Thank you. Thank you. And he looks, I look like a giant.

[01:29:12] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Oh, well, this has been such a fabulous discussion today, ladies, thank you so much for taking the time. I've enjoyed talking about these scriptures with you and then hearing about how you count it joy.

So thanks. We're done. We're done. I love you both.

[01:29:26] Chere Clark: That's it. I love you. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks. You're awesome. It was an amazing experience.

[01:29:33] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Well, ladies, I am so grateful that you just got done telling us how you count it joy because this summer we're doing this fabulous thing. We're calling it the summer of joy and we're going to count it joy all summer long.

And so every one of our guests at the end of each episode this summer, I'm going to ask how do you count it joy? And you gave beautiful answers. I like how Becca talked about it's seeing the hand of God in her life. And especially when you said you can't live your life without Jesus. And then Chere, for you to talk about how you have gratitude every day.

And so I'm going to encourage everyone listening, do this if you have, and I know everybody has an old journal laying around their house, so don't go buy anything unless you want to buy something. We're going to do a joy journal this summer and every day. We are going to write down something at the end of our day.

You can do it on your phone, you could do it on a piece of paper, whatever you want to do. Write down one thing that day where you either saw God's hand in your life. Or something that you're grateful for. Now, I remember doing this back when I was in college, because Oprah Winfrey said it was a really cool thing to do called the gratitude journal.

So I was in college and I did buy a little journal and I wrote down everything at the end of each day, right before I went to bed, I wrote one thing I'm grateful for. And I will tell you, I go back and read that journal. I'm going to put a picture of it in our show notes. Hilarious. The stuff that I wrote and you better believe I wrote in there when I went on dates, I was super grateful for that.

And that was seeing the hand of God in my life when I went on a date. So let's do this. We're going to have so much fun. And then on Saturday, we're going to ask a question. How did you see God in your life? Or what are you grateful for? We're going to ask for some joy journal entries. So go to Facebook or Instagram and connect with us that way.

And then at the end of each week on a Saturday, we're going to ask a question. Tell us your joy journal experience, and I cannot wait to find out what you did. Let's make this summer the best summer ever, even though it might be crazy for all of us. We're going to have a summer of joy. You can get to both our Facebook and Instagram by going to the show notes for this episode, which are at ldsliving.

com slash Sunday on Monday. And if you go there, you're going to also find the links to the references we used as well as a transcript of this entire discussion. So go check it out. The Sunday on Monday study group is a desert bookshelf plus original, and it's brought to you by LDS living. It's written and hosted by me, Tammy Uzelac Hall.

And today our awesome, incredible study group participants, Rebecca Frei and Chere Clark. And you can find more information about them at ldsliving. com slash Sunday on Monday. Our podcast is produced by Cole Wissinger and me. It is edited and mixed by Cole Wissinger and our executive producer is Erin Hallstrom.

Thanks for being here. We'll see you next week. And please remember, please remember you're not here for the weeds. You're here for Jesus and that you are God's favorite.