The following transcript is intended to aid in your study. However, while we try to go through the transcript, our transcripts are primarily computer-generated and often contain errors. Please forgive the transcripts’ imperfections.

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[00:00:00] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Art is so much more than pretty pictures. It has power to move, to shock, to inform, and to transform. I just quoted a professor by the name of Simon Shama. He is a university professor of art history and history at Columbia university, as well as a writer and presenter of more than 40 documentaries on art history and literature for the BBC, including the show, the power of art.

It's phenomenal. And this man knows so much about art. On his show, he takes you on this incredible journey through art as well as the artist. Well, you guys, today we have our own Simon Shama, who is going to teach us the power of scripture through art, so much art, and she has paid the price to make countless pieces of art available to all of us.

And I can't wait to show you where. Welcome to the Sunday on Monday study group, a desert bookshelf plus original brought to you by LDS living where we take the come follow me lesson for the week, and we really dig into the scriptures together. I'm your host, Tammy. Uzelac Hall. Now, if you're new to our study group, go follow the link in our description that will explain how you can best use this podcast, especially today because you're gonna wanna look at all the artwork.

To enhance your come follow me study, just like my friend Jill Taylor from Guatemala. Hello sister. Welcome back to Utah. We're so glad to have you here. Well, you're not from Guatemala, but you did some time in Guatemala, the welcome home. Now another awesome thing about our study group is each week we're joined by two of my friends and it's a little bit different each week.

And today is a lot a bit different, as I like to say, because we have a new guest and an old guest. So our old timers, Jenny Reeder. Hey, lady. Hey, I'm so happy to be here. Oh, well, I'm so happy you're here. And the reason you're here is because the other guest we have, that's the reason she's here is because of you.

And I'm so excited. Her name is Jennifer Champoux. How cool is that last name? Almost as cool as usual. I'm sure people say it wrong. Is that true? It's true.

[00:02:00] Jennifer Champoux: Oh, I, I hear it all. Yeah. But you did great. Yeah. I'm so glad to be here. Thank you for having me.

[00:02:06] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Yes. We have an X in your last name that throws everybody off silent X at the end.

So yeah. Okay. Jennifer and Jenny, how do you two know each other?

[00:02:15] Jenny Reeder: Probably through the Maxwell Institute. Oh no, no, no. I remember I came to Colorado to do a. What's that event called?

[00:02:25] Jennifer Champoux: The Colorado Faith Forums?

[00:02:27] Jenny Reeder: Yes. I came and spoke at the Colorado Faith Forums a couple years ago. I mean, like five ish, right?

Yeah.

[00:02:35] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Yeah.

[00:02:35] Jenny Reeder: And I met you there and the, the rest is history. I am a huge art lover. And so I've been so excited to follow. Um, Your journey with Book of Mormon art, and I use it all the time and I share it with everybody.

[00:02:53] Jennifer Champoux: Oh, thanks Jenny. Yeah. Jenny and I have crossed paths here in Colorado and then also at the Mormon History Association conferences.

Um, and she's, she's been a big champion of the Book of Mormon art catalog and appreciate her support.

[00:03:09] Tammy Uzelac Hall: So Jennifer, tell us a little bit about what is this Book of Mormon art catalog? Give us your story. Break it down for us, for all of us listening who are going, wait, what is she talking about?

[00:03:19] Jennifer Champoux: Thanks. So I'm a scholar of LDS visual culture, and as I've been studying and writing about, uh, Latter day Saint art, uh, I found that it was really difficult to get a comprehensive view of the trends in Latter day Saint art.

Um, because there was no central place to go to find all the art. So I was actually doing a project working on looking at Lehi's dream art. So art based on first Nephi eight. And so I was going to, you know, museum websites and church manuals and the church online exhibitions and Um, private galleries and owners, um, books and articles.

And I was finding all this different art, um, and a lot of it wasn't very accessible to the general public. So I thought it would be so great to have a website where anyone could go and see all the Book of Mormon art from around the world. So that's what the Book of Mormon Art Catalog is. It's bookofmormonartcatalog. org. And it's, it's just free. Uh, it's available to anyone to hop on there and you'll see art from, I think we have 55 different countries represented. Uh, we have right now just over 4, 000 artworks that we've cataloged. And so you can see how people around the world are engaging with. This book of scripture and bringing their own experiences and culture to the arts and, um, to reading the book and then we have some really great search functions that allow you to use it for your personal study.

So you can. You can look up art by scripture reference or by topic. So you can find exactly what you want to go with your study or teaching for that week.

[00:05:10] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Here's a fun fact about Jennifer. She's actually a guest on one of our unnamed women in scripture episodes where we took art and we talked about women in the Book of Mormon entirely through the lens of art.

So you're going to want to go check out the second episode of the Book of Mormon women. It's so good, especially in anybody listening that teaches any type of class in church. You need art like we're just, it's, we're visual people. We love stuff, especially little kids and teenagers. So this is best resource ever.

And we tried to get this in as early as we could. And I think we chose the best chapters in the book of Mormon for the artwork. And it was so much fun looking at all of the artwork, but mostly fun talking to Jennifer as she's like. Well, what about this? And what about, I mean, we talked clear back in January about the best space for you to fit in.

And I really feel confident that this is it. I mean, the artwork is going to be so much fun.

[00:06:01] Jennifer Champoux: Yeah, I'm excited.

[00:06:02] Tammy Uzelac Hall: So I recommend everybody go to our show notes. You're going to want to check those out. First of all, you can read the bios about my two historians, by the way, they are very educated historians.

Read their bio, see their cute pictures. And then also you're going to want to go to all of our show notes because that's where we're going to have the link to the Book of Mormon art catalog and you can just click on it and we'll show you all the pictures and you can just follow along as we study these chapters in Mosiah chapter 11 through 17 all through the lens of artwork.

I can't, I'm so excited now for those of you listening, you're like, but I'm driving, I can't look at art. We, Jenny and I, our job is to describe the art as best we can of what we're seeing. That's, we're going to give you this kind of cool. We're going to describe it so you can picture it in your mind, and Jennifer's going to talk to us about it, and then you can go see how it measures up.

That might be kind of fun.

[00:06:52] Jenny Reeder: Can I just offer my testimonial? I use this art catalog every time I teach, um, either gospel doctrine or young women. I always use art and it makes such a difference. And I ask people what they see and what they notice and what does it mean? And nobody falls asleep in my classes and everyone comes up to me afterwards, old people, young people, and say, to say, I love your art.

So thank you. Thank you so much for this catalog.

[00:07:23] Jennifer Champoux: Oh, Jenny. Thank you. I'm so glad to hear that you're using it and people are enjoying it. I really do think that, um, when we see different kinds of art other than The ones we've all seen a million times. It does help open up new insights and perspectives and discussions.

[00:07:40] Jenny Reeder: Oh, I have to tell you a story. Just a couple of weeks ago, I was teaching, um, second Nephi two through six, I think three through six. I don't know, but it was that, um, that, uh, Arabic print of Nephi's psalm, and you're going to die when you hear this. A lady in my class, um, knows the artist, pointed us all to his blog and his podcast, talking about that particular piece of art.

It was so awesome.

[00:08:12] Jennifer Champoux: Oh, nice. Yeah. Yeah. That's a really fun piece. I love that.

[00:08:16] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Oh, I love that. Oh, that's so fun. I just have a quick question for you, Jennifer. How many years has it taken you to do this?

[00:08:23] Jennifer Champoux: Um, I've been building the catalog for about three years and I'm funded by the Maxwell Institute at BYU and the Laura F.

Willis Center for Book of Mormon Studies out there. Um, so I'm grateful for their support and I've got a couple of great student research assistants at BYU who help and we're still working away. We've got. A lot of things still in the queue that we're working on cataloging. So we're, we're adding new things every month.

So you keep checking back and finding new stuff.

[00:08:54] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Oh, this is going to be so fun. All right, everybody will grab your scriptures and something to mark your scriptures with as we study Mosiah chapters 11 through 17. KU2, as you were reading these chapters, I just want to know, what did the Holy Ghost teach you?

[00:09:07] Jennifer Champoux: Well, you know, I feel like Mosiah is often read as a very. Overtly political book because we have so much focus on the Kings. So Mosiah one, and then Benjamin and Mosiah two. And in between we get the story of Noah as the sort of contrast of. The, the Wicked King and versus these Righteous Kings. And I think that's all really interesting, this contrast between different types of rulers and different types of governments.

But I felt like reading this this week, the bigger contrast to me is between Noah and As a ruler and Christ as the perfect ruler. And I feel like Abinadi sort of, you know, he starts by telling us all the sort of, or setting the stage with all these terrible things that Noah does. And then he talks so much about Christ and what a true King looks like.

And a true King looks like a servant. Silently submitting himself to all things and even laying down his life for the people. And I'll just, maybe I'll just read one scripture. This is in Mosiah 15, verse six. And, and after all this, after working many mighty miracles among the children of men, he shall be led yet, even as Isaiah said, as a sheep before the shearer is dumb.

So we open not his mouth. Uh, yeah, even so he shall be led, crucified and slain. So that's, I think it's interesting, you know, Abinadi is saying this to Noah, like, this is what true leadership and true kingship looks like is someone who's not living selfishly and, um, comfortably for himself, but is living for others and submitting himself for the welfare of others.

[00:10:57] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Jennifer, something just struck me as you read that. One of the things we've learned, and we know about the Book of Mormon, is that verses were put in later. It was never written in verse style, it was just written in book format. And you just read Mosiah chapter 15, verse 6, and you read the first line of verse 7.

And I almost think if I were to write, rewrite this and put in verses, I would have done it the way you just read it, because it made so much more sense to me. Because you read that where he says, He says, as a sheep before the shearer is dumb, so we open not his mouth, yea, even so shall he be led, crucified and slain.

And that connected it to what they did with the lambs. They led the lambs. And that's what they did with them. They, they crucified. They slain. I just like it connected it. The purpose of the lamb to the sacrifice of the old Testament in such a beautiful way right there. I love how you did that.

[00:11:53] Jenny Reeder: Oh good.

It's beautiful. I love how, um, uh, Abinadi has such a firm understanding of who Jesus Christ is and in his own way he becomes Jesus Christ. Like he literally takes upon him his name. When he's quoting, um, Isaiah. Chapter 53 in Mosiah 14, he talks about how Christ was despised and rejected and a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief, and he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows.

And I think that. Abinadi exemplified that in the sense that he literally gave his own life. Um, he was despised and rejected of all the people of King Noah. And I just think it's a, it's an incredible example of how he understood Christ and he took upon him Christ. And then in chapter 17, verse. 19 as he's dying, as he's being burned.

He says, Oh God, receive my soul. Which I think is very close to the thing that Jesus said when he was dying on the cross. And I, I just really believe that we all have those moments of darkness and being despised and. Um, burdens and grief and it's, it's so beautiful that we can not only share that grief with Jesus Christ, but take his name and, and rise up because of that.

[00:13:23] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Jenny, that was beautiful. In fact, as you were talking, I turned to Mosiah 17 verse 19 and then you did it. You connected it to that cause I thought of that, but I'd never considered that idea that Abinadi and Christ are. Like mirror, he's mirroring the savior. That was so profound. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that.

Beautiful. Thank you. Both of you. What great lessons you learned from the Holy Ghost. And now as a result, we have learned from that. So this is going to be a fun discussion. So in the next segment, we're going to do this. We're going to have a continuation of the story from last week, where we talked about Zeniff and the people who followed him to the land of Lehi, Nephi, and in continuing the story about Zeniff, he confers his kingdom upon one of his sons, and we're going to find out how that goes.

Segment 2

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[00:14:16] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Let's turn to Mosiah chapter 11, and we're just going to look at verse one. Jenny, will you read verse one for us?

[00:14:22] Jenny Reeder: Yes. And now it came to pass that Zeniff conferred the kingdom upon Noah, one of his sons. Therefore, Noah began to reign in his stead and he did not walk in the ways of his father.

[00:14:33] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Ooh, I love how you put emphasis on not.

Nice job. Yeah, he did not. And in fact, if you want to bracket off versus one through 19, it's going to tell us how not he did not walk in the ways of his father. And I asked you guys to read over these verses, we're going to have a discussion about what stood out to you or what do you find the most appalling about some of these verses as it describes Noah and his people.

[00:14:57] Jenny Reeder: I think that it is fascinating that he built these elegant and spacious buildings, as it says in verse eight, that were filled with fine work of wood and gold and silver and iron and brass and copper and all of that. But the thing that kills me about all of this is that he, um, built these supports for them so that they could lean down on them.

They didn't even have to sit up. That is the ultimate laze.

[00:15:29] Tammy Uzelac Hall: It is. Oh, that's so good. The laziest of laze. I mean, it even says that in here, just how they're just so lazy. They didn't want to be, they wanted to be supported by, like, verse 4. And all this he did to take support himself. Like, he didn't want to have to do anything.

So all the taxes that he took from people was to support himself and all of his priests. I mean, I love how you said that. The ultimate laze. That's so good, Jen. Jen.

[00:15:55] Jennifer Champoux: I also noticed, um, that it talked about a part where some, some of his Noah's people were being attacked by some Lamanites and Noah didn't really do much to protect them.

He knew this was going on and it said he sent a few soldiers, but not enough. And I mean, that feels like the bare minimum of what you should do as a ruler is protect the safety of your people. And, um, And even that felt like he couldn't be bothered.

[00:16:25] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Oh, right. Can you give us the chapter and verse?

[00:16:27] Jennifer Champoux: In Mosiah 11, verse 17, um, actually let's start in verse 16.

And it came to pass that the Lamanites began to come in upon his people, upon small numbers, and to slay them in their fields. And while they were attending their flocks and King Noah sent guards round about the land to keep them off, but he did not send a sufficient number. And the Lamanites came upon them and killed them.

[00:16:52] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Oh boy, that was a great one, Jennifer. Just the bare minimum and it wasn't enough. He didn't even care about his people.

[00:17:00] Jenny Reeder: The other thing that really stands out to me is the riotous living and the women and the concubines and the wives and the harlots. And I think it's such a, it's such an interesting contrast from when Jacob spoke about that, you know, a couple, A couple of chapters back, a couple of books back, I don't know how many years ago or before this, it was, but he talks about how the, um, how God hears the tears of the wives and children that are suffering from this.

And so there's a lot of, I think it's, um, a lot of. Suffering that we don't see written out, but we know that the wives and children must have really been hit hard with this more than anybody else.

[00:17:44] Tammy Uzelac Hall: That's great insight.

The fun thing about these chapters today, 11 through 17, is it's such a great storyline. You can really just sit down and read it for reading sake and get so much out of it. And I encourage everybody to do that, especially in light of the fact that we're going to be looking at artwork, because if you read the story and then come back and see the art, it will just come alive, especially if you're going to be teaching this, because that's what we did.

We read all these chapters and then we decided, let's look at what some of the artwork depicts. So as we just finished talking about Noah and his wicked ways and what his people were going through, Jennifer has artwork that depicts this wicked King Noah and his wicked ways. And I cannot wait to see what this is.

So Show us some of your artwork and let's talk about it.

[00:18:29] Jennifer Champoux: Well, thanks. I thought that the one we should start with is the most iconic depiction of this moment. Um, this is by Arnold Friberg and it's called Abinadi before King Noah. We all know this, right? It was in our little blue soft copies of the Book of Mormon that we all grew up.

[00:18:46] Jenny Reeder: It totally was the paperback copy. You know what I love about this is that you can't stop looking and you see something new every time you see it, even if you've seen it a million times.

[00:18:56] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Yes. I totally agree.

[00:18:58] Jennifer Champoux: Yeah.

[00:18:59] Tammy Uzelac Hall: So this is the picture, for those of you listening, where you have the big gluttonous king on his throne.

There's two leopards, are those leopards?

[00:19:09] Jennifer Champoux: I don't know if they're leopards, tigers, panthers, they're wild beasts, is what they are. And they're

[00:19:14] Tammy Uzelac Hall: ferocious. Yes. Thank you. Sitting on the side. And then you have all these high priests sitting and listening to Abinadi standing in the middle speaking and Abinadi's lit up and everything else around him is kind of darkness.

So, and yeah, and like you said, Jenny, every time you look at it, it's Like, I'm just now noticing the broken sword down on the side on the floor.

[00:19:34] Jenny Reeder: Yeah. Oh my gosh, I never saw that before.

[00:19:37] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Like, did someone try to kill Abinadi and they couldn't? And the sword broke? Like, I want to know that.

[00:19:41] Jennifer Champoux: Yeah, I feel like that is, I mean, this is my reading of it, that the broken sword is symbolic of this moment where Noah wants his priest to take Abinadi and take him away, and he says, touch me not.

Cause he hasn't finished delivering his message. And so you see the, the soldiers kind of cowering behind him and then their broken sword on the floor there.

[00:20:04] Jenny Reeder: Well, and also the, is it broken or armor on the ground behind it? Abinadi.

[00:20:09] Jennifer Champoux: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:20:12] Jenny Reeder: And I love that. There's that, um, what's the green thing at, at, um, Noah's feet.

Yeah. Like his scepter.

[00:20:24] Jennifer Champoux: Yes. I think, I think it is meant to be, it matches his headdress that he's wearing.

[00:20:30] Jenny Reeder: Okay. So it's very ornate with like green feathers or something, plumage.

[00:20:35] Jennifer Champoux: Yeah. I think maybe a foreshadowing here of the fall of Noah, as we see his scepter on the ground and this cup of spilled wine next to it, um, like sort of the beginning of the end for Noah's reign.

[00:20:50] Tammy Uzelac Hall: What about this picture rings to you, the gluttony? Or the laziness. I mean, everything we just talked about.

[00:20:59] Jennifer Champoux: Well, I mean, you know, it's interesting. The scriptures don't tell us what Noah looked like, but he's almost always shown in art as being a fairly large guy. Uh, and he is here, right. And he just, he looks pretty comfortably ensconced in his throne, uh, with a bunch of ornate fabrics and he's wearing fancy clothing and these really amazing Boots, um, kind of a.

What an art we would call this sort of an orientalizing sort of style or sort of look drawing on things from the ancient near east to add this element of ancient exoticism, um, the freebergs drawing on.

[00:21:44] Jenny Reeder: I think it's interesting that the priests are, are, um, sort of in the background, but they're also significant in the story, but they're also dressed in very fine clothing with their black headdresses and the gold and the red.

[00:21:58] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Oh yeah, they're all wearing fancy jewelry. It's fun to zoom in on this. You can, I'm seeing things I've never seen before. Like, I've just noticed now there's food next to Noah on his throne.

[00:22:10] Jennifer Champoux: Oh, like some grapes or something. He's got a plate of food next to him.

[00:22:15] Tammy Uzelac Hall: I mean, I probably would too if I was on a throne.

[00:22:17] Jennifer Champoux: Did you notice the bird next to him perched on a little, like, if you look to his left? Yeah. It's some, you know, kind of a South American looking bird, maybe like a Quetzalcoatl or something.

[00:22:41] Jenny Reeder: It's very jungle y, huh, with the cats down below, whatever they are.

[00:22:49] Jennifer Champoux: That's right. And even some of the design details and the architecture, I think Freeburg is, again, playing with these ideas of ancient cultures and thinking about maybe some Mesoamerican architecture.

Mm hmm. Stylistic details, like under King Noah, there are these little carved stone relief squares that look very Mesoamerican. Um, but I want to go back to what Jenny was saying about the priest clothing, because the scriptures do say that Noah was, you know, using some of the people's tax money to support this lavish lifestyle for his priests as well.

So And we see that contrasted with Abinadi, who's just in rags. And I think this is one of, you know, speaking of the wicked ways of Noah, this is, Really the heart of what he gets wrong as a king is he fosters these kinds of, um, socioeconomic divisions and classes within his society. Um, he, he supports that he encourages those kinds of divisions.

And as we know from the Abinadi's testimony and from so many prophets, that is the opposite of the gospel of Jesus Christ, whose love and redemption is available to all people equally.

[00:24:08] Tammy Uzelac Hall: I'm struck was you just said that, Jennifer, because I'm reminded of the artwork by Karl Bloch and they did a big thing down at the BYU Museum of Art and they put a lot of his artwork on display.

And one of the things I remember learning about the way he painted is he always painted red as a symbol of the atonement of Jesus Christ on people that needed it most. And now I'm looking at this and you can see that Noah, his, he's enthroned in a red. Scarlet robe. Look at that. All the way down, almost reaching out to Abinadi.

And then I'm looking at everyone who has read on them. And I wonder if that's just like kind of A touch to Karl Block and this idea that, Oh, he's going to need all the help he can get. I mean, everyone, but there's no red on a Abinadi.

[00:24:53] Jennifer Champoux: Oh, that's a really neat symbolism. I'm glad you pointed that out. It is very striking here.

[00:25:00] Jenny Reeder: I'm really struck by the way Noah appears so robust and rotund. And we look at a Abinadi and you can see his ribs. I mean, he's a skinny guy, but you can also tell how strong he is even with his hands. Um, cuffed like that. And I think it's really interesting too, that he's standing on, Jennifer, you're going to have to tell us more about this.

It looks like a compass that in the floor, the floor tile.

[00:25:30] Jennifer Champoux: Okay, so I'm so glad you brought this up, Jenny, because I was studying this picture last night, and it was one of these moments where I hadn't really ever focused on that element before, and I thought, whoa, what is this? Is this beautiful inlaid stone, maybe marble or granite?

And again, alluding back to Noah's building projects and these lavish, spacious buildings and palaces, um, and I did think it looked like a compass, and I Honestly, I'm not sure what the symbolism is here, or if Preberg was just trying to show this sort of lavish, um, decoration contrasted with, you know, Abinadi standing on it in his chains and rags.

I don't know. What are your thoughts?

[00:26:17] Jenny Reeder: I don't, I think of Abinadi in this, in these chapters and in this story, I guess, in the Book of Mormon as the, um, As the prophet, and I love the fact that he's standing on this compass or this, um, way to find direction and, and understanding better, like where he fits into the world.

[00:26:38] Jennifer Champoux: Hmm. Right. That Abinadi is bringing direction.

[00:26:43] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Yes.

[00:26:44] Jennifer Champoux: Yeah. I like that. Oh, I like that.

[00:26:46] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Abinadi is bringing direction. Yeah. I think it's a compass for sure. Cause all he talks about is pointing to Christ. Everything he says points to Christ. Oh, yeah. That's good. Oh, my gosh. How fun. Look at that discussion we had with one piece of art

[00:27:04] Jennifer Champoux: and a piece that we all know so well.

This has been in, uh, the come follow me manual. It's, um, in the church facilities, artwork catalog. It's been in magazines. We've all, we all know this piece, but yeah, there's so much to think about when you really Take the time to carefully look at something.

[00:27:22] Jenny Reeder: You know what it also reminds me of again, Jesus Christ standing before Pilate or any of the people that condemned him unrighteously.

[00:27:31] Jennifer Champoux: Totally. And Jenny, we have the. But as you pointed out, the sort of breastwork that where the priests can rest their arms so they don't even have to sit up straight.

[00:27:44] Jenny Reeder: It's the lux, guys. It's the lux.

[00:27:47] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Okay. Well, this was so fun. So this is one picture that we've talked about. Very riveting. How fun would that be to have in a Sunday school class with gospel doctrine, primary kids or teenagers?

To just so much fun. Yes, absolutely. Just to talk about and introduce the story of King Noah. So King Noah, he comes from good Nephite stock and a very strong pedigree, but his wicked ways needed transforming. And so the Lord sent a warning voice to the prophet. And we know that that is a Abinadi. And we're going to learn a lot about a Abinadi with more art and verses of scripture.

In the next segment,

Segment 3

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[00:28:28] Tammy Uzelac Hall: we are still in Mosiah and I sent over specific verses of to my guests. And these are in our show notes. That I thought did a great job of describing Abinadi. And then I said, I want you to come and just tell me what you think these verses tell us about Abinadi. So from what you read, will you just kind of share with us a verse that stood out to you and we'll read it and tell me what you think it tells us about Abinadi.

These will be in our show notes. So this would be a fun way to teach this, to put these up on the board, assign them out to people to read, and then tell us what you've learned from Abinadi in these verses. I'll go first because in chapter 12 verse one, I thought this was so much fun. So after I

[00:29:05] Jenny Reeder: love this, I think this is hilarious.

[00:29:08] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Okay. I'm going to have you talk about it, Jenny, because here's what happens. Abinadi tries to speak to the people and they're not having it. They don't like what he has to say. And he, I, I love this cause I wrote bold, but not overbearing. That's what he is to me in Mosiah chapter 11 verse 20. It's when Abinadi comes among them and he went forth among them and he began to prophesy saying, behold, thus saith the Lord, we know that is prophetic speech right there.

The Lord is telling him what to say, thus he commanded me saying, go forth and say unto this people, thus saith the Lord, woe be unto this people. We have a woe Oracle right there, which we learned about for I have seen their abominations and their wickedness and their hoardings and except they repent, I will visit them in mine anger.

Well, you can imagine. The priests in Kenoa did not like this, and so Abinadi leaves. He has to flee for his life. And he waits about two years is what chapter 12 verse one tells us. And what does he do when he comes back, Jenny?

[00:30:02] Jenny Reeder: Okay. This I think is both brilliant and I don't know what he said. He comes among them in disguise and then he begins to prophesy and he says, okay, in disguise, like he probably has some sunglasses on and a hat and maybe a wig.

I don't know. He said, did all of your minds go to that place?

[00:30:22] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Like, I wonder what the trench coat, the plastic face, the plastic glasses with the big nose that we had in the seventies. Yeah. Yes.

[00:30:32] Jenny Reeder: Thus has the Lord commanded me, saying, uh, Benedi, go and prophesy unto this my people. And I'm like, Oh, you just gave it away with your like fourth word.

The disguise was up.

[00:30:47] Tammy Uzelac Hall: The ruse was up. The ruse was up. So he gets called to go back and speak to these people. And he does it. He is bold. He is clever. He is prophetic. And for me, he, I learned he is very obedient because I would have been like, but they don't like me. Remember, they wanted to kill me. Are you sure I need to go back?

And Abinadi does. He goes back. Any other verses that stood out to you about Abinadi? What did you guys learn from him about him? I should say.

[00:31:11] Jenny Reeder: I think it's interesting in chapter 11, verse 22, where he is saying before he goes into hiding for two years, he says that except people, the people, this people repent and turn into the Lord, their God, they shall be brought into bondage and none shall deliver them except it be the Lord, the almighty God.

Now, I think that is a little bit ironic because He is in bondage and the only way that he is delivered is at his death.

[00:31:43] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Hmm. Ooh, that's a great connection. I'd never made that before. That's cool. Jenny.

[00:31:47] Jennifer Champoux: Yeah, I thought it was something kind of similar to that. Um, this was towards the end of the story in Mosiah 17 verses nine and 10.

And Noah is telling Abinadi if he doesn't. Retract what he said about Christ coming to the, to, to earth, that he'll be put to death. And now Abinadi said unto him. I say unto you, I will not recall the words which I have spoken unto you concerning this people for they are true, and that you may know of their surety.

I have suffered myself that I have fallen into your hands. Yea, and I will suffer even until death, and I will not recall my words, and they shall stand as a testimony against you. And if you slay me, you will shed innocent blood. And this shall also stand as a testimony against you at the last day. I love how far Abinadi, he's just completely fearless.

He knows he's put his trust in Christ and his own death of his body just doesn't matter at all to him. Like he's not concerned at all about that. He knows that Christ has already broken those bands of death. And that word, that phrase bands of death is, um, I was, Abinadi says that five times in these. Wow, that's in these verses, fascinat breaks the bands of death.

[00:33:06] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Powerful. That's powerful.

[00:33:09] Jenny Reeder: So I think that's such an interesting contrast to. Um, what, um, he teaches them in chapter 16 verse 12 with the Lord having these arms of mercy extended towards them. Such a contrast between the, the, the bands is the arms of mercy.

[00:33:31] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Oh, I think that's so

I'm highlighting that. Thank you. I'm connecting it with a line across the page from seven to 12 extended. That's so cool. Okay, so take us into some artwork then, Jennifer, about what the artists used and how they depicted Abinadi.

[00:33:54] Jennifer Champoux: Okay. So the first one I want to show you is by Minerva Teichert, um, called Trial of Abinadi.

This is from around 1950. So the same time as Arnold Freeburg that we were just looking at, um, but a very actually different depiction in some ways. The first thing that struck me is that. A bei here is a young man. And this made me wonder, wait a minute, what do we actually know? Is a bedi old or is he young?

Does any do the scriptures tell us? And they don't actually tell us. We just know he's a man. We don't know how old he is. And I thought that makes me feel a little different about the story. If I think of him as a young man who's come and is willing. To sacrifice his life for the gospel of Jesus Christ and to try to bring these people to repentance.

Um, that reads a little different to me than if it's a really old guy. Oh, for sure.

[00:34:49] Jenny Reeder: Do you think we always think he's old because of the Freiburg painting?

[00:34:54] Jennifer Champoux: You know, that's interesting. I, I actually, I think, yes, I think that painting. Has been so influential. There's so many, if you look in the Book of Mormon art catalog, if you look up Abinadi and King Noah, so many of the pieces that have come after Arnold Friedberg look a lot like him compositionally and in terms of how the figures look, but Minerva Teichert.

was doing her own thing. And this was actually before she did this before Freeburg's piece. So this was her own, and she really got into the script. When she did art, she really read the scriptures and, um, and, and tried to depict what, uh, what they were saying. So, I mean, this is her take on it. There are a few other examples of art that show it.

Benedi is younger, uh, but there aren't many, most of them show him as an old guy with white hair and, um, Usually a bare chest and these big buff arms.

[00:35:53] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Okay. That's powerful to consider. He was young and that maybe did he have a family? Did a wife or children? Now I'm thinking of it in a whole different way.

The sacrifice that he gave of his life.

[00:36:04] Jennifer Champoux: Yeah. So interesting. Cause we don't really know where he comes from. They just kind of, he just kind of appears. We don't know if he's. Part of this community, or if he just is a traveler, if he came from another settlement, um, it's not, it's not totally clear what his background is, but we do know that he's clearly called a God and has felt that call to preach repentance to the people.

He looks like, yeah, he does. I like in this painting, uh, Jenny was making the point that Abinadi sort of, Um, maybe prefigures Christ a little bit in the way he's brought before this tribunal and is bound and ultimately condemned. We have that sort of depicted here with the Abinadi, um, in all, you know, I mean, it almost looks like a sort of Christ before, you know, Pilate or the, the Jewish priests, and it made me think a lot about these, Scriptures in these chapters about a sheep being brought before the shearer and Abinadi just looks very calm.

He looks quiet. He's not speaking. He's just standing there and he's not worried. Um, see a lot of courage here and just trust in God.

[00:37:23] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Well then if we go back to what Jenny said, the comparison between Abinadi and Christ, if you did it just age wise. I bet I would have been in his thirties.

[00:37:32] Jenny Reeder: That's good. So I am totally drawn to the stripes.

I think it's fascinating. I mean, he looks like a prisoner literally in like striped prison uniform, but I'm also drawn to the man on the right, um, who is also wearing stripes. And I, I kind of wonder if that's Alma.

[00:37:55] Jennifer Champoux: Oh, yeah. I was trying to figure out who is Noah here. Noah isn't nearly as prominent as he is in most images.

We're not, like, the focus isn't on Noah. The focus is on Abinadi and maybe this Alma figure. That's where the real story is. Hold on.

[00:38:12] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Hold on. I know what it's from. Oh my gosh. Look at Mosiah chapter 14. What? Because Abinadi is speaking to the people. He's quoting Isaiah, which we're going to get into in the next segment.

But look at the words he uses as he quotes Isaiah. Go to verse, verse five. There it is. But he was wounded for our transgressions. He was bruised for our iniquities. The chastisement of our peace was upon him. And with his stripes, we are healed.

[00:38:39] Jenny Reeder: And now I look at the guard over by the window. It looks like he's a Roman guard.

[00:38:44] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Yeah. Yeah. But like the red stripes would then tell us that. He needs to use the atonement. Maybe that if that is Alma, he's about to And that Abinadi has used them because his stripes aren't red. He's used the atonement of Jesus Christ. Oh, that's so cool. I wonder if she played that verse into how they're dressed with his stripes.

We are healed. What a great idea. Thank you for sharing that. Okay. What's the next piece of art? This is so fun.

[00:39:12] Jennifer Champoux: Okay. The next one is by an artist named Jorge Coco. He is originally from Argentina and he did this just in 2019. It's a similar sort of scene where we have a Benedi before King Noah. Um, Jorge Coco uses this.

Very cool abstracted style that he calls sacrocubism. So you can see the kind of fractured space that he uses. And I think that works really effectively here to highlight Abinadi and maybe this glowing countenance that the scriptures tell us he had. Um, he, again, he's not a super old man here. He's maybe middle aged.

Um, so I like that artists are sort of. Experimenting with maybe what he looked like or how old he was. But what I really love about this piece is the way he points with boldness. Like he is not afraid. I mean, he's standing surrounded by these priests and guards and the King, and he is unafraid. What are your thoughts about it?

[00:40:15] Jenny Reeder: I love the angles and the way that, that Coco did these angles, they all center around Abinadi and that's, of course, where the light is, it's shining on him, but he has these sharp angles that I think are so fascinating. In a way, it seems like he's being protected. He has like this, this shield around him where, you know, he's reaching out past that protection to point at King Noah.

But there's something about him in the center of the painting with the lines coming down towards him and going out to, I think it's just, I think it signifies like his voice and his power, which I believe is the priesthood power of Jesus Christ.

[00:40:59] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Yeah. I agree. I like that, Jenny. As you were talking about that and you pointed that out to me.

Um, all of the cubism looks chaotic around him, like all the different triangle squares, all the different hexagonal shapes. I don't even know what I'm talking about, but I'm not good at geometry, but all the shapes around him where the priests are just seem chaotic. But the lines, like you said, and the light are right down it.

That's so calm where he is. The space he's in is, uh, is, is perfect. Oh, that's so cool how you pointed that out, Jenny.

[00:41:36] Jennifer Champoux: Yeah. I love that. Good job. I, and I think it creates this sort of feeling of stillness, like a sacred stillness and that's, that's what, that's the point that Abinadi makes about Christ is that he's brought as a sheep before the shearer is dumb.

You know, I feel that kind of just. Stillness as he draws on that priesthood power.

[00:41:58] Jenny Reeder: It's so, I like it because it's so fractured outside of him and broken. And like, in a way it makes me think of how the earth quaked and shook and trembled before Christ came to the Americas. And there's this moment of like peace and protection.

[00:42:18] Tammy Uzelac Hall: I like how you use the word fractured. That's perfect way to describe that. That's an, and then going back to that idea of how. His, him pointing, it just seems his, that's his boldness right there. He's just so bold, even though he's chained and he's bound, he still can just boldly point out what they're all doing is wrong and they don't like it.

I like the priest faces in there. That one priest looking away like, Oh, that's that. That's what his face looks like to me. He's just going, ah, I don't like you calling me out that this is get rid of him. Yeah. He's going to ruin our lives. We're gonna have to go to work,

[00:43:00] Jenny Reeder: especially because the priests are sitting back there and they're still leaning on the breast work.

[00:43:04] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Exactly. Life's good for them. Okay. Awesome. Great artwork. And there's more about this. I mean, this was so cool about the catalog. Jennifer only chose a couple of pieces of art because we could not possibly describe all of them in the hour and have.

So go, go find other pieces of artwork, hang them up all over the room. I've done that. That is so much fun as a seminary teacher to have kids walk in and just see art everywhere. It just blows your mind and it just invites you in to a great discussion. So this was our discussion about Abinadi. All right.

Now, as Abinadi speaking to the people, and we've referenced this earlier, he decides to quote Isaiah and there are some beautiful, probably my favorite piece of artwork. Of all the artwork I saw for this episode is found in this next segment, and we are so excited to show it to you.

Segment 4

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[00:44:01] Tammy Uzelac Hall: We will be in Mosiah chapters 14 and 15 for this segment, and here's what you want to know. Mosiah chapter 14, Abinadi is quoting Isaiah chapter 53. After he gets done quoting it, then in Mosiah chapter 15, Abinadi gives his commentary on Isaiah 53. He doesn't necessarily go verse by verse. He gives his commentary in a thematic style, which I think is really beautiful.

One of the things that stood out to me as we were studying this was verse two. And there's a piece of artwork that just has my heart. Like I took, it took my breath away. I love it so much. So let's just read verse two and talk about this. And Jennifer, will you read verse two, please?

[00:44:42] Jennifer Champoux: Okay. So 14 verse two, for he shall grow up before him as a tender plant and as a root out of dry ground.

He hath no form nor comeliness, and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

[00:44:55] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Thank you. What you need to know about Isaiah 53 and Mosiah chapter 14 is it's one of the greatest prophecies of the Messiah found in the Old Testament. It's called the song of the suffering servant and the servant is Jesus Christ.

So kind of write that to the outside of this as it describes him right out of the gates in verse two, he shall grow up before him as a tender plant and then he has no form or comeliness. Those are two separate ideas. The painting that we're going to talk about is the one about a tender plant. But I wanted to find, before we get into the artwork, I just wanted to find when it says he hath no form nor comeliness.

And when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. I remember reading that. And for years when I was younger, I was like, Oh, he's, he's not that good looking. I guess that's what telling us he's, or he'll look like a normal man. And I love this commentary. It's the idea of this is that scholars conjecture that this passage refers not to the savior's physical appearance, but to the fact that Jesus would not come in the glorious manner that yous are expecting.

President Joseph Fielding Smith interpreted these words to mean that Jesus would look like an ordinary man, and thus the Jews would not recognize him as the son of God or as their Redeemer. I mean, they really thought it'd be this great, incredible enthroned King who would come in and take over and destroy the Romans and bring back their peace as they viewed it.

And he didn't come that way. And so that's what that verse means. There's no coming. That's when we see him. There's no beauty that we should desire of him. He's just a man, which I love, but not just a man. He's the savior of the world. But then we go to the beginning of this. He'll grow up before him as a tender plant and as a root out of dry ground.

I mean, Jenny, just tell me what you hear or what you think of when you hear the idea a tender plant.

[00:46:39] Jenny Reeder: Somehow this reminds me a little bit of when I lived in Harlem, which is, uh, dirty, um, somewhat crumbling place, um, unless they're gentrifying it in certain sections, but I remember walking to church, um, in Harlem and in the sidewalk, I would see.

Of daffodil growing out of the crack in the sidewalk. Now there's nothing alive around it, right? I have no idea how it survived and how it pushed through that little crack. There had to have been a daffodil bulb, but it just made me think of how. Beauty can come in, in dark and tight places. It also reminds me of one of my favorite, um, ladies is Julia Mavambela, who lived in South Africa in Soweto.

And during apartheid, she noticed that the kids were becoming very violent. And so she decided to teach them how to garden and all she needed was a clod of dirt and she could teach them how to grow something beautiful out of that. Um, she, uh, she taught them how to save the water from their kitchen and to drain it through, um, rocks and then take it and, and pour it on their plants.

And it was just a beautiful lesson that, that we can grow beautiful things out of dry ground.

[00:48:03] Tammy Uzelac Hall: So Jenny, I like how you just said something beautiful growing out of dry ground. And then we have this incredible piece of artwork like this took my breath away. Jennifer, talk to us about this. You have two that you're going to share with us for this segment.

[00:48:15] Jennifer Champoux: Yeah, I, I'm so glad we, um, chose to look at this one. It's called as a tender plant by the artist, Jennifer Paget. So what I really love about this is that, well, two things first, I like that it's more thematic that it's not just trying to illustrate a historical moment that happened in the Book of Mormon, but it's trying to think about these bigger themes that are being talked about. And then, so that's the second thing I like too, is that. There was actually very little artwork. depicting the beautiful gospel that Abinadi talks about. There's a lot of artwork of Abinadi talking, um, to people, but we don't have a lot of visualizations of what it is that he's saying, which is so powerful.

And I like that this is thinking about that and maybe In a, in a more thematic way to try to visualize Christ as the righteous king who, who cares for us. I think, you know, the plants, there's so much symbolism in, throughout the book of Mormon of the tree of life and, and the seed and, uh, the seed of the word that grows into the tree of life.

And this is a symbol that really. Prophets throughout the Book of Mormon returned to. And I think it makes a lot of sense because there is this idea of rebirth and renewal with planting, um, and that it's a sort of a continual process, right? That it's not, we're not reborn in Christ one time, but it's this continual reshaping of ourselves as we allow Christ to, to work through us and to let, help us grow.

[00:50:00] Tammy Uzelac Hall: I like how you described that in this piece. You have a picture of Jesus. It looks like all around him are the leftovers of a, of a wildfire, like a forest fire, like everything's dead and dry. And then you have Jesus in the middle and this little plant and they have halo. Jesus has a halo and the plant has a halo.

But then I zoomed in on the plant. I don't know. To me, it looks like a Charlie Brown Christmas tree. It does. Yeah. Like it's this little tiny budding tree that will eventually become grand and we'll put in our houses and, you know. Merry Christmas. But it's about Christ. I don't know. I'm having all these thoughts.

What do you think, Jenny?

[00:50:42] Jenny Reeder: You know, it reminds me of other significant trees in the Book of Mormon. Of course, there is the Lehi's vision of the tree of life. But we also learn about. There's Lehi's vision about the tree of life with the fruit that is most desirable above all other fruit and how badly he wants his family to come and partake.

But then there's also, we learn from Lehi, again later, about Adam and Eve and, and I don't know that the Book of Mormon literally states the, the tree of knowledge of good and evil, but we are taught about that choice that they make in the Garden of Eden. And then of course, there's Jacob Five, where we look at the olive grove.

And this is, this particular painting looks like he's in the nethermost parts of the olive grove. Doesn't it?

[00:51:31] Tammy Uzelac Hall: That's cool. Yeah.

[00:51:33] Jennifer Champoux: That's

great, Jenny. Thank you.

[00:51:40] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Oh, this is a beautiful painting. Yeah. Please everyone use this. What's the next one you have?

[00:51:46] Jennifer Champoux: Um, so the next one is by an artist named Jody Livingston, and it's a kind of a drawing and it, it actually, this goes perfectly with what Jenny was saying earlier about how, um, Abinadi in, in some ways parallels the experiences of the Savior.

And so actually Livingston has visualized that here with Abinadi, it's called Abinadi and the Savior. And so on the top row, we see. Three scenes of the Savior, one of him preaching to the people during his mortal ministry. And then one of him with, um, maybe a Pharisee or at his trial with the Jewish priests.

And then finally a crucifixion. And then below that matching up to each one, we see Abinadi doing the same thing. Preaching, just like Christ preached and then Abinadi brought before this tribunal of, of priests and then Abinadi scourged and then, um, and then martyred. So that's, that's interesting that, I mean, I think, I know some scholars like Grant Hardy have pointed out.

Some of these parallels between Abinadi and Christ and Ur Abinadi and Moses that it's, I mean, we've talked a little bit about some of the, the ways that he was looking back to, to Moses, including, You know, similarities in front of standing in front of a king or a pharaoh, and he recites the 10 commandments and he has this glowing countenance like Moses does when he comes off Mount Sinai, but then, but then he is, he's also sort of echoes things that will come to pass with Christ.

And I think that fits so nicely with his testimony. It's just, I don't know, it's just especially interesting since the coming of Christ is Abinadi's central message, and it's the message that actually gets him killed, um, but, and he sort of plays it out in his own experience too.

[00:53:55] Tammy Uzelac Hall: I like that you just talked about Abinadi, or you talked about Moses and the Ten Commandments and you go in here and Abinadi, that's what he does.

He recites the Ten Commandments.

[00:54:03] Jennifer Champoux: Exactly.

[00:54:04] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Oh, it's so cool.

[00:54:07] Jenny Reeder: So let's just take a step back and think about where this story fits in the story of Christ. This is before Jesus Christ. And um, I think it's this piece of art, I think is so fascinating and I've had to look at it for a long time to sort of gather my thoughts about it, but I think it's interesting that Christ, the three depictions of Christ are on the top.

Mos or Abinadi and in the book of Mosiah is on the bottom. Um, but it really reminds me of one of my favorite verses in all of scripture, which I think contains the pure doctrine of Jesus Christ in third Nephi chapter 27, verse 14, where Christ tells the Nephites, my father sent me that I might be lifted up upon the cross.

And after that, I had been lifted up upon the cross that I might draw all men unto me that as I have been lifted up by men, even so men should be lifted up by the father to stand before me. And I see that here below as a Abinadi is being tied to the stake, um, and it point that it points up to Jesus Christ on the, on the cross.

And I just think that's such a beautiful comparison. And we also like. To bring Moses back into the discussion, how Moses was, the Lord told Moses to put the serpent on the rod. And if people would look to that, they would be healed. Which is so ironic because those are both Pictures of such pain and sorrow and suffering and it's visible.

It's so visible

[00:55:41] Tammy Uzelac Hall: It was so cool how you connected the third Nephi.

[00:55:44] Jennifer Champoux: Yeah, I love that scripture. Thanks for reading that Jenny, of course

[00:55:50] Jenny Reeder: I heard that in the MTC when I was a mission a young missionary

[00:55:55] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Of course, I saw the word draw and then I thought of all the drawings were talking about they draw them unto me

[00:56:00] Jenny Reeder: Oh, I didn't even think that.

You're such a smarty.

[00:56:04] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Now I'm actually juvenile in that one.

I'm like, draw, draw.

We're doing drawings. That's so cool. It's like a dad joke. You thought on a whole nother plane. It totally was a dad joke. Oh, that's awesome. Wow. These paintings are great. This one, it is. I, I love it. I, I'd love to talk to him and find out why he did it the way he, like, that's what I'd love to know about artists, how you came up with the idea.

My brain doesn't think this way. And so when I meet people who do think like this, just. Yeah.

[00:56:36] Jennifer Champoux: Yeah. I know Jody is an artist that really wrestles with the scriptures and spends a lot of time studying and, and reading good scholarship and commentary and like really pouring over the scriptures. And I think that's really apparent in his work that he's, he's put some thought into it and he's trying to, to visualize some of these ideas he's had.

[00:56:57] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Yeah. You can tell. Thank you, Jennifer. Well, we have more pictures to see, and I thought this was really cool because in the next segment, I'm going to show you guys two Hebraisms and there's actually some art that connects to one of them. I'll show you that next.

Segment 5

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[00:57:21] Tammy Uzelac Hall: In the reading that we have in all of these chapters, there are two really cool Hebraisms that I want to show you. So the first Hebraism, let's go to Mosiah chapter 12 and we're going to mark verses three and then 10 through 12. So Mosiah chapter 12 and then highlight verse three. And then verses 10 through 12 and to the outside, you're going to write this.

This is the, what the Hebrew ism is called. It's a simile curse that this was so interesting simile curse. So simile curses can be found in certain prophecies, ancient treaties, and religious covenants. It was very doubtful that Joseph Smith was aware of this form or setting in scripture because there's not a lot in the old Testament, but there are a few.

And what this is is a simile curse is when you have an event. And then you have the application of the event to the subject or the curse. So for an example, here's an easy way to say it. Just as this wax is burned by fire, so shall a fad be burned. That's the example that I found online in all of the writings from BYU scholars.

But here is where a Abinadi is talking to Noah and the priests and he's saying in verse three, it shall come to pass that the life of King Noah shall be valued even. As a garment in a hot furnace. So you can see the simile curse. So as a garment in the hot furnace, even so shall Noah be valued. That's that.

Then we have it again in verse 10, 11 and 12, and it's being recited. They're saying, can you believe this guy said this about us? The priests are saying, can you believe that Abinadi says that we're going to be burned up as a garment in a fiery furnace in verse 10. And again, he said, thou shalt be as a stock, even as a dry stock of the field, which run over by the beasts and trodden underfoot.

So there's another simile curse. And then verse 12, again, he sayeth, Thou shalt be as blossoms of a thistle, which when is fully ripe, if the wind bloweth, it is driven forth upon the face of the land. And all of this, the simile curses will actually come true. You can put the cross reference of Mosiah chapter 19 verses 20 through 21.

And that's where you read the demise of King Noah and his wicked priests. So there's one example of a Hebraism. Now the next one is in Mosiah chapter 14. Let's turn there. Mosiah chapter 14. Bracket off verses four through eight, and I'm going to tell you what to write, and then we're going to go to another one.

I'm going to give you a stronger definition. So here we go. In Mosiah chapter 14, verses four through eight, This is called a prophetic perfect tense. So he's quoting Isaiah and Isaiah is saying all of these things about the Savior as if it had already happened. And remember, Jenny pointed this out perfectly.

The Savior hasn't even been born yet. And so we have a prophetic perfect tense. Now go to Mosiah chapter 16 verse six and put that reference next to those verses, Mosiah chapter 16 verse six. And we'll look at this specific prophetic perfect tense. And Jenny, will you please read Mosiah chapter 16 verse six and seven for us?

[01:00:29] Jenny Reeder: And now if Christ had come into the world, speaking of things to come as though they had already come, there could have been no redemption. And if Christ had not risen from the dead or broken the bands of death, that the grave should have no victory and the death should have no sting. There could have been no resurrection.

[01:00:48] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Thank you. I circled the word had in those verses. If Christ had not come. As though they had already come, if Christ had not risen from the dead, remember, none of this has happened yet. So the prophetic perfect tense is speaking of important religious events. as if they had already occurred. That's what this means.

And Jennifer found a really cool piece of artwork that kind of supports this. And it's by J. Kirk Richards, which we love his art. Oh, so good. Tell us about this.

[01:01:19] Jennifer Champoux: Um, yeah, so this is a little piece by, um, J. Kirk Richards called the light and the life. And that title comes from Mosiah. Chapter 16, verse nine.

So just right after where we just were, and I'll read that for you. He is the light and the life of the world. Yay. A light that is endless, that can never be darkened. Yay. And also a life, which is endless, that there can be no more death. And I think this fits really nicely with your teaching on the prophetic perfect tense, because even though Abinadi is living 150 years before Christ comes to earth, for Abinadi, it's as if he's The atonement has already happened.

And, and I think because, I mean, we know the act of the atonement is a historical moment, but it also has always been true because of who Christ is because of his nature, he was always going to be our savior. You can't disentangle. Christ from the atonement. He is the atonement and, and Abinadi even switches tenses as he's talking about Christ and the atonement.

And I'll give you one example in Mosiah chapter 15, verse 19, he says, for, were it not for the redemption, which he hath made for his people, right? So he's, even though Christ hasn't come to the earth yet, Abinadi is saying, He already hath made right the redemption, um, which was prepared from the foundation of the world.

I say unto you, were it not for this, all mankind must have perished. I really love that from the foundation of the world, that this was always part of God's plan that Christ as our savior to atone for us, um, was part of the plan from the foundation of the world, it's always been true. The atonement.

Exists forwards and backwards and up and down and through space and time. Um, it's not, you know, Christ's redemption is not limited in any of those temporal ways. And I think importantly for Noah's Noah and his priests, it's not, the redemption is not limited by wealth or status. It's available to all people in all times and all places.

So this art shows Christ before a crowd of people. It's pretty, um, I mean, it's figurative, but it's fairly abstract in that we don't have clearly defined facial features on the people or on Christ. And I like that that just sort of allows the viewer to come. Um, and get more of this feeling of Christ with his open arms, almost kind of in a Christus statue, sort of a come unto me kind of pose, um, a triumphant Christ, uh, who's, who's broken these bands of death and is, I mean, he, he's got his hands out.

He's welcoming us, but maybe also showing us. The wounds of the crucifixion, he's been wounded for us. He's suffered with us and he loves us. And I just, I just feel like this picture really captures God's love for us and his, his desire to reach out to all of his children.

[01:04:42] Jenny Reeder: You know, I've been thinking, um, Tammy, ever since you, you taught us about this present prophetic tense, prophetic, perfect tense.

Um, I remember, uh, uh, a scholar that I heard talking about the book of Mormon talks about how the book of Mormon collapses time. So it's all in the present. And I think by doing that, the book of Mormon is like, Coming out or rolling out or happening in my day today in 2024, the same way, Jennifer, that you talked about how the abstract nature of this painting puts me in that crowd too, looking at Christ.

I'm so grateful for that. I love this painting. I love the colors, um, the red and the. Blues and the light around Jesus. I think it's, it's beautiful.

[01:05:37] Tammy Uzelac Hall: I, I love everything you said, Jenny, because when you were talking about that, and when I first saw this, I immediately was kind of like, Oh, because it's called the light and the life.

I just expected it to be more light, more bright. I would expect there to be like so much light shining down from the sky on, on the savior and that the focal point would be nothing but light and bright. But then Jenny, as you were talking, suddenly this painting became so, so bright. Like, he's not bright in the, in the tense that it's not because he's not bright.

It's that everybody can look on him. No one's looking away. No one's like, Oh, I'm not worthy. Like, and there's no faces, but you can tell the position of their heads. Everyone's looking upwards. They're looking at him and all are welcome to come into him. That's kind of the, now the message I'm getting, like his light isn't so bright that you have to turn away.

He is saying, come on to me just like you said, Jenny. And I'm in that audience. We all are there and everyone's looking to him and I just, it's just, it's so simple in now. It's such a simplistic painting. I'm sure it was very hard to paint because I can't paint it all, but of course I can never do that.

Yeah. It just, you look at it, you think, what a simple painting that is. Like there's a light. And then I realized. Yeah. Maybe it's because you want, the artist wants everyone to know everyone's welcome.

[01:06:58] Jenny Reeder: I don't know. You know, this reminds me, this discussion reminds me of something that a 19th century woman said, Eleanor Georgina Jones, and this is in At The Pulpit.

She says, there's no pit so dark or so deep that you cannot pray and seek light. And I just think I, you know, I get caught up in the briars and noxious weeds of my life and. Yeah. I'm just grateful that, that I can look past that.

[01:07:29] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Maybe that's why it's so dark down below. Maybe that's why it is blue down below.

Oh, Jenny. That's so awesome. You know what? It also looks like Christ walking

[01:07:37] Jenny Reeder: on the water.

[01:07:38] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Yeah, it does. Oh, this is good. Yeah. Like maybe people are drowning. These are to save them. You go anywhere with this. This is such a great piece of artwork. I love it. So glad you chose that, Jennifer. Okay. So fun. Good.

All right. We have one more segment and we have a whole lot more art, but we only have two to show you. So again, please go to Book of Mormon art because you're going to want to see these pieces. We are going to be introduced to another very important man in this story and we're going to see artwork about him.

Do that next.

Segment 6

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[01:08:19] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Let's go to Mosiah chapter 17, verse two, and that's the only verse we're going to read. Jennifer, you read that for us.

[01:08:27] Jennifer Champoux: Yeah, but there was one among them whose name was Alma. He also being a descendant of Nephi and he was a young man and he believed the words which Abinadi had spoken for he knew concerning the iniquity, which Abinadi had testified against them.

Therefore, he began to plead with the king that he would not be angry with Abinadi, but suffer that he might depart in peace.

[01:08:48] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Thank you. Okay. Bye. Highlight, put a square around the name Alma. This is kind of fun. The only thing we really know about him in that verse that he was a young man, and this is a fun fact, Alma means young man in Hebrew.

So it's sort of a neat little word play right there. And you'll see that often throughout scripture, especially in the Old Testament when the tribes get all of their names, every name, Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, they all in the verse they're named, tell why they're named that. It's really pretty powerful.

So here we have Alma. Okay, Jennifer, show us the artwork that we have that will talk about Alma. This is neat.

[01:09:23] Jennifer Champoux: Okay, so this first one is an early, um, Latter day Saint depiction of Abinadi. It's from 1897. We actually don't know who the artist was that did this. It shows the actual martyrdom. of Abinadi. So as he's being put to death by fire.

And, you know, I think this is interesting because Mormon, who is editing this record, is so careful to, to detail the prophecies and how they're fulfilled. You know, we have Abinadi killed by fire here, and then later, Make sure to tell us that King Noah was also, um, later, later died by fire as Abinadi had prophesied that he would, um, So I just, I thought it's also interesting that this is one of our earliest artworks of the Book of Mormon, that this is a moment that early saints were thinking about and was important to their understanding of the story.

Um, there are a few more contemporary, uh, pictures of the martyrdom, but Most images focus on Abinadi actually talking to Noah and the priests. It gives me kind of a visceral reaction of like uncomfortableness and pain and sorrow at, at the fate of, um, of this prophet. Um, I don't know. Do you guys have any thoughts on how, how does this image speak to you?

[01:10:54] Tammy Uzelac Hall: I just can't believe it's from 1897.

[01:10:59] Jenny Reeder: Hmm. It's for some reason, it kind of reminds me of. Joseph Smith at Carthage. Why?

[01:11:07] Jennifer Champoux: Yeah. Kind of outside the building with a mob around him.

[01:11:15] Jenny Reeder: Right. And that's the well or whatever, where he falls from the window. It's the same idea of martyrdom and of death and of loss.

But look, I love the way he's looking up even in all that smoke. He's looking up. It reminds me also of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.

[01:11:34] Jennifer Champoux: Yeah. Right. Or Alma and Amulek who, who have a similar, except, but they, but they are actually, they aren't burned in the fire. Right.

[01:11:46] Jenny Reeder: But they witness it.

[01:11:48] Jennifer Champoux: Yeah.

[01:11:49] Jenny Reeder: And Amulek asks Alma, why can't you ask God to stop this?

[01:11:53] Jennifer Champoux: Right.

[01:11:55] Jenny Reeder: Yeah.

[01:11:56] Jennifer Champoux: And I think, I think in both instances, there's sort of an idea that there's, there's God's timing, right? Even Abinadi says. You know, I'm going to finish, God's not going to let me die until I finish giving my message to you. And then whatever happens to me happens. And he, he did, he was able to deliver the message.

You know, it

[01:12:16] Jenny Reeder: also reminds me of elder Dennis Simmons conference talk, where he talks about how Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego were not burned. And then he says, but if not, I will continue to believe and testify of my God.

[01:12:37] Jennifer Champoux: Ooh, I love that, Jenny.

[01:12:40] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Exactly what Abinadi did.

Cool painting. Well, actually, what's the medium?

Do we know?

[01:12:47] Jennifer Champoux: This was printed in a book, I believe. And so this is probably like a lithograph or kind of an etching that could have been printed repeatedly in a book. Neat. And notice Abinadi is as old and has a white beard. So maybe there is an earlier precedent for an old Abinadi in the art anyway.

[01:13:13] Jenny Reeder: That is so I'm, I'm just thinking about Abinadi being young versus Abinadi being old.

[01:13:19] Jennifer Champoux: Yeah.

[01:13:20] Jenny Reeder: Yeah.

[01:13:22] Jennifer Champoux: And we just, we really don't know. So the last piece I want to show you is by Walter Vane. Um, And it's at this moment, at the end of the trial, it's called Abinadi had testified. Yeah. Walter Reed. Whoa.

[01:13:43] Tammy Uzelac Hall: That is so good.

[01:13:46] Jennifer Champoux: His art is so fun. It's so full of movement and drama and emotion. He's really good at capturing these narratives.

So what you see here is, um, in the back left, you have King Noah who's angry and he's pointing at Alma, uh, who is trying to speak up for Abinadi and ask, you know, he's asked the King if they can just let Abinadi go. Um, and then in the background you see Abinadi bound and he's a young man here, a very young man, and he's being led away by King Noah's.

Um, guards, and so I think the, the piece really focuses on Alma, who's at the front and center of, of the painting and he's still wearing, you know, the, the priestly costume of Noah's people and they're, I mean, it's sort of fanciful and exotic, um, but you can see on his face, this like this conflicted, he's, he's, you know, You know, he's felt the spirit move him.

He's, he's started to have this change of heart and he's spoken up for Abinadi, but now Noah is pointing at him. Like he's going to be in trouble. Now he's going to be cast out and he is, he is cast out and he goes and hides in the wilderness and secretly preaches, um, to people he, he Alma, I think this is where.

We start to see Alma begin this work of healing the divisions that Noah has fostered among his people by teaching them to repent and teaching them to gather as believers, he'll baptize them, he'll form a church, he'll teach them about Christ and Alma's willing to give up his faith. His status and his wealth in the court of Noah, because he's found something, something greater, something that's really touched his heart.

[01:15:48] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Well, I'm struck by the blue cape that is around Alma's neck because blue is a symbol of royalty and leadership. And I wonder if that's alluding to what Alma will become as a leader among his people after he leaves. Like he's the only one in blue.

[01:16:04] Jenny Reeder: Well, he's the only one wearing a cape too. Like, I wonder if that just shows he's preparing to leave.

[01:16:09] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Yeah. And how about the way they're carrying out Abinadi, the young Abinadi? Like, that guy is grabbing his hair. He's pulling his hair.

[01:16:19] Jennifer Champoux: Yeah. He's like hog eyed. Yeah. Yeah. It's definitely that, like, sheep led to the slaughter kind of an image. Yeah.

[01:16:30] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Oh, there's so much emotion in this painting. Mm hmm. King Noah's face.

[01:16:35] Jenny Reeder: And look how angry, I know, look how angry, um, King Noah is.

[01:16:40] Jennifer Champoux: Uh huh. Mm Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, you see him in all of his finery and his gold earrings and feathered headdress and clothing, um,

[01:16:53] Jenny Reeder: sitting cross legged on the platform.

[01:16:56] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Oh yeah. He is. Oh my gosh. Look at him. Just sitting comfortably.

[01:17:02] Jenny Reeder: And do you see his priest or advisor or whoever that is behind him in the upper left corner?

Mm hmm.

[01:17:12] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Oh my gosh.

[01:17:13] Jennifer Champoux: Oh yeah.

[01:17:16] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Kudos to Walter Raine, whoever he is. If anyone knows him, tell him. I think this is so, I want to know who his model was for King Noah's face. Maybe it was Walter. What does Walter look like? Do we know? Oh my gosh. I mean, to get that, that much emotion, that is

[01:17:34] Jennifer Champoux: so good. So this piece, um, is.

He, this was commissioned by the church as part of a series of Book of Mormon paintings about 20 years ago that they commissioned Walter Raine to do. And they're all fantastic. And most of them are actually the originals are on display at the Manhattan stake center in the same building as the Manhattan temple, which is above the temple.

You can go see them there in the hallways. That's your temple, Jenny.

[01:18:05] Jenny Reeder: That's amazing. I love it. .

[01:18:07] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Oh my gosh, this is so cool. What a great painting to end with. Thank you, Jennifer. This was such a fun episode. Oh my gosh, I've never ever been able to study the scriptures through art, and this just elevated my understanding.

I'm a visual person and so I love this, and your website is phenomenal. Everybody go to, and again, say the name of the website so everyone knows where to go. Jennifer

[01:18:33] Jennifer Champoux: book of Mormon art catalog.org.

[01:18:37] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Okay. And we'll have it in our show notes. So if you go there, you can just click right to it and begin your study of scriptures through art and use her catalog.

It's free for everyone. That's the other cool thing. Free, right? You don't have to pay anything. It's free. You can use your, and you have full access to all of the art there. Are there any caveats that people need to know about the artwork, what they can and can't do with it?

[01:18:58] Jennifer Champoux: Oh, sure. Good question. So we've, when, when we know the copyright information, we've included that on each artwork webpage, this is, you know, this, our website is intended for, you Educational and personal study use.

And as such, you're, you're free to use those in your personal study or your Sunday school teaching or your seminary class, obviously we wouldn't want to download the art or print it off or put it up on a poster or anything without, um, contacting the artist and actually purchasing a print from the artist, um, out of, out of respect to their, their work and their copyright.

So feel free to use these. For personal, uh, study and education, but we've included links to the artist's website or commercial galleries if you actually wanted to buy a print of the art to have.

[01:19:49] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Perfect. Thank you. Well, thank you, ladies. That was a fun discussion. Okay. So just take a minute, gather your thoughts and what is your takeaway from today's discussion?

What's something that will stick with you?

[01:20:01] Jenny Reeder: I loved the contrast and we talked about this earlier, but it's just really stood out to me the contrast between the bands of death and the arms of mercy. And I think it's a matter of what we choose. We choose whether we want those bands of death or the arms of mercy.

And I tell you what. I'm going to always choose the arms of mercy. I want to break free of those mortal bands and choose the arms of mercy.

[01:20:29] Tammy Uzelac Hall: I think that was perfectly said. Great summation. Thank you, Jenny.

[01:20:33] Jennifer Champoux: What about you, Jennifer? Yeah, I love that. I love that connection. Um, I'm going to remember that too.

And I've also just been thinking a lot as we talked about this, the suffering servant That, that you told us was, um, in this, in these Isaiah verses and, and how Abinadi prophesied of Christ and that Christ is that suffering servant that, and that's what was so difficult for Noah and his priests to think about God condescending to come to earth.

As a mortal, and it's not just a mortal, but someone who could be wounded and who could suffer. And, um, and that is a really revolutionary idea. If it's a new idea to you and what an amazing idea, like what, what, what an incredible thought that, that that's what true kingship looks like. Um, and it makes me.

Want to emulate the savior more in, um, having greater mercy towards other people and, um, extending those, those arms of mercy or like, you know, just showing charity to those around me and trying to alleviate suffering around me. But I'm just, I'm so grateful for this testimony that Abinadi has left us of the savior and the way that he loves us and that his saving power is available to all of us.

[01:22:01] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Thank you, Jennifer. Jennifer. I agree with what you said. It was so good. Mine was the idea that Abinadi could have been young. How cool is that? Love it. I love it. Yeah. Might've had kids. Joseph Smith. Yeah. Right. And then it goes back to what you connected it to the story of Jacob, but there were wives and little children's hearts that were hurting because of the way that the people were living.

And to consider the, the people who are not written about. I think it's important for us to take a step back and go, what if though, and what's going on with the women and the children and the people who didn't want to have to pay taxes and, and how they had to be subjected to Noah, this wicked king. And so I just, I liked how you connected all of that, Jenny.

Great discussion. You too. This art just elevated everything we discussed. So Jennifer, for paying the price to do this.

[01:22:49] Jennifer Champoux: It was so fun for me. Thanks for having me.

[01:22:51] Tammy Uzelac Hall: Oh, it's an invaluable source. Wow. Thank you for joining us today. That was an incredible discussion. I loved it. I hope you loved it too. Go and check out the artwork and follow along and use it in your lesson.

I'd love to know if it even made a difference. Go on Facebook or Instagram and just share a little message. If you did use the artwork and what you thought about it and what you thought about this episode, I'd love to know your thoughts. I'd also like to know your takeaway. So join our group on Facebook or on Instagram and share what you've learned or ask some questions or just share how your experience with was using art.

Then at the end of the week on a Saturday, we post a comment that relates to this specific lesson. So share your thoughts. You can get to both our Facebook and Instagram by going to the show notes for this episode on ldsliving. com slash Sunday on Monday and go there anyway, because it's where we're going to have the links to the references that we use for the artwork, the actual link.

You can click on it and it will take you there and we'll have a transcript of this whole discussion. So go check it out. The Sunday on Monday study group is a Deseret Bookshelf plus original brought to you by LDS Living. It's written and hosted by me, Tammy Uzelac Hall. And today are just so fabulous study group participants were Jenny Reeder and Jennifer Champoux.

And you can find more information about my friends at ldsliving. com slash Sunday on Monday. Our podcast is produced by Cole Wissinger and me. It is edited and mixed by Cole Wissinger and our executive producer is Erin Hallstrom. Thanks for being here and we'll see you next week. And please remember. Bye. That Jesus Christ, the savior of the world, the lamb before the slaughter, loves you and that you are God's favorite.