The following transcript is intended to aid in your study. However, while we try to go through the transcript, our transcripts are primarily computer-generated and often contain errors. Please forgive the transcripts’ imperfections.

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Tammy Uzelac Hall: [00:00:00] All right, I have a true story to tell you guys. So last week, my youngest daughter said to me, Mom, I just found out that Wendy's hamburgers and Baskin Robbins ice cream are coming to where we live. I mean, what's next, Jesus? Okay, now listen, while Wendy's hamburgers and Baskin Robbins are not actually mentioned in the book of Revelation as signs of the second coming, there are some pretty amazing things that are mentioned.

The book of Revelation chapter 6 through 14 contain amazing verses about the second coming. But even more amazing is that all of these chapters connect us to Christ. So for this episode, you are going to need colored pencils, a pen, sticky notes, the show notes, and some time to really dig in to the revelation of John chapters six through 14.

There is so much to mark and so little time to do it in, but man, we are going to give it our best [00:01:00] shot and I think you're going to love it. Welcome to the Sundown Monday Study Group, a Deseret Bookshelf Plus original brought to you by LDS Living, where we take the come follow me lesson for the week, and we really dig into the scriptures together.

I'm your host, Tammy Uzlack Hall. Now if you're new to our study group, we want to make sure you know how to use this podcast. So please follow the link in our description. It will explain how you can best use this podcast. to enhance your come follow me study, just like my friends who all belong to the Charlie and Vicki Brown family.

And I just have to give a shout out to Kimberly, Kristen, Brandon, Janice Weston, Donald, Amanda, and all of their sweet grandkids, Kennedy, Olivia, Jack, Zach, Caleb, Ella, and Buddy who all listened to the podcast. We love you guys so much. Hey, now another awesome thing about our study group is each week we're joined by two of my friends, but you know that sometimes it's just a little bit different.

So today we have different, and I couldn't be more thrilled to introduce you to Professor Jan Martin from BYU. Hi [00:02:00] friend!

Jan Martin: Hi, how are you, Tammy?

Tammy Uzelac Hall: Oh, I'm good. Okay, Jan, tell us a little bit about yourselves. My guests have never met you. This is the first time and I'm thrilled that you're joining me for this book.

Tell us a little about yourself.

Jan Martin: Well, I was born in San Diego. I moved around the West because my dad was an FBI agent. So that's a fun piece of news. And I grew up in Albuquerque, New Mexico and Holiday, Utah, places like that. Went to BYU. A couple times, and then I moved to England, and that was another fun thing about me, is I lived in England for seven years.

My husband is British, um, did all my graduate work over there, and then we moved back here so I can teach at BYU. So I teach in the Religious Education Department, I'm in the Ancient Scripture area, and I teach Book of Mormon and New Testament, so.

Tammy Uzelac Hall: Well, that is awesome. I bet my guests are so excited. And in case you guys are wondering, she kind of looks like Taya Leone.

I've been watching a lot of Madam Secretary. I'm like, you totally [00:03:00] remind me of her. Do people tell you that? No, no. You're the first person. Oh yeah. You totally remind me of her.

Jan Martin: So I'm not going to complain. That's a nice compliment. Thank you. Yeah.

Tammy Uzelac Hall: You're beautiful. So, okay. Well, if you guys want to know more about my guest, you can check out her bio and see pictures of her.

And I encourage you put all the fun pictures you have, especially of your husband. I think that'll be fun from our guests to see. You can find those which are going to be in our show notes at ldsliving. com slash Sunday on Monday. Okay, so I told you in the beginning what you need to have for this episode.

So grab all of that and let's dig in to the book of Revelation. Okay, so right out of the gates before we even get started, the other thing that you absolutely need to successfully study these chapters is the New Testament Institute manual. Now, if you have the manual, the hard copy, great, go get it. If you don't, here's how you're going to find it.

It's in the Gospel Library app. Then you want to click on Books and Lessons, then click on Institute, and then scroll down until you see [00:04:00] New Testament Teacher Manual. That is what you want. And then the other thing you need is Doctrine and Covenants. Because we are going to specifically be looking at Doctrine and Covenants section 77, which we talked about last week with Don Perry.

So we're going to be back in Doctrine and Covenants section 77. Okay, so knowing all of this and now you have all of your stuff ready. Revelation chapter 6 through 14, it has a lot of symbolism, cryptic verses, even what people think are some scary second coming language that we could easily spend hours going through verse by verse.

But instead I talked to Jan and I'm so grateful for her inspiration. Because what we've decided to do is really examine how these chapters connect us to Christ. So, Jan, I want to know, why was that your original approach?

Jan Martin: I think it's really easy when you read the Book of Revelation to get caught up in things of less importance, and things that might be disturbing or, or interpreted in a way [00:05:00] that's disturbing.

And so, I always like to approach the Book of Revelation with a focus on the Savior. because it is a revelation of him. Now there's other things it reveals, but it's largely a revelation of Christ's work with the earth and with coming the second time. And so I think it's a mistake to just focus on smaller things that are interesting and then miss the whole point.

And the whole point is Jesus. So I just like to keep that focus and we can look at other smaller things as we go, but I just, I just have a preference to focus on the main figure and that is the Lord Jesus Christ.

Tammy Uzelac Hall: Wow. That's awesome. Well, and as a New Testament scholar, I'm curious to know, I just have this question when you were doing your PhD and you were looking at all of this verbiage, was revelation The craziest thing to study.

What was that like when you got to this book?

Jan Martin: Well, I studied, 16th century English Bible translations. And so [00:06:00] I spend a lot of time looking at other people's interpretations, like Martin Luther was the 16th century guy. William Tyndale, 16th century guy, and there's other people. Um, and so I think that's one of the reasons why I like to manage this book.

The way that I do is because they, um, sometimes got off on certain things and got distracted from. The main message. And so it's really fun looking at the way 16th century Bible translators handled this book because it's tough. It's a hard thing to translate. Um, and so I just am like, let's focus on the things that we can understand more easily.

And then that helps open up the other things that have a wider variety of interpretations.

Tammy Uzelac Hall: Yeah, well, and now I'm thinking when Joseph Smith said that the book of Revelation was the most pure of all the books. I'm wondering if that word pure has more to do with Christ than it does the crazy wording.

Jan Martin: I think so.

And, and I think Joseph, who, you know, had many [00:07:00] encounters with Jesus Christ personally, like we have to remember how many times Joseph saw Jesus and interacted with Jesus. And so I think he would be really drawn to that. And I think he would naturally, you know, when you read the Doctrine and Covenants, you see a lot of similar language, actually, and a lot of descriptions of Jesus that kind of match the book of Revelation.

So I, I really think Joseph kind of had this deep connection and really understood things better than we do. And even though it's hard to explain with words, sometimes the things that you see in vision, I think he connected with Jesus very well. And, and I think the book of Revelation for him was, was certainly more pure than, than we're usually able to do.

Tammy Uzelac Hall: Wow. Hold on. I'm just writing down some things because that's the first time I've connected that pure with Jesus. And I like how you said he connected with Jesus very well. I'm putting that in my scriptures. That was awesome, Jan, [00:08:00] because he did connect with Jesus.

Jan Martin: Like, you know, we love the prophet Joseph Smith and, and I think sometimes we just need to back up and.

And remember how many times he interacted with the Savior personally. Yeah, we kind of forget that. Like, we focus on the first vision, but we have section 76, and we have other places in the Doctrine and Covenants where Joseph is describing Jesus. And you're just like, how many times has he experienced this?

And, and we need to just kind of be in humble reverence and awe of that. Um, and remember that, you know, Joseph gave us a limited amount of information and it's hard to express visions and things with language and he did the best he could. But I think that there's just kind of that depth of connection that we need to respect with Joseph.

Joseph knew a lot. more personally than maybe he was ever able to convey.

Tammy Uzelac Hall: Jan, [00:09:00] thank you. I really appreciate your simple testimony of Joseph Smith just right there. Yeah. That was awesome. I felt that. So thank you for doing that. So this is going to be a great episode. You guys, I just want everyone to sit for a minute and think, because here's what we're going to do then starting in the next segment.

Our goal then for the next hour and a half is to connect with Jesus in a way that we've never done that before using the book of revelations. So. In the next segment, we are going to dive into Revelation chapter six, and we're going to see all of the cool things we can find and how it connects us to Christ.

Segment 2

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Tammy Uzelac Hall: Let's dive into Revelation chapter six, because there's some crazy stuff here. There's all these seals. What does this mean? So Jan, talk to us about this and how can we connect with Christ? in Revelation chapter six.

Jan Martin: Thanks, Sammy. I'd love to show you some [00:10:00] fun scripture study techniques that will open up things like this for you.

Awesome. If you just want to go everyone to Revelation chapter six, verse one, and you'll see right off the bat. where it says, and I saw when the lamb opened one of the seals. So what we're going to watch is Jesus opening up these symbolic time periods of, of our past church and world history. And as we read them, sometimes you get caught up in these symbols and these.

meanings, and you, and you don't know how to find the Savior in here. And so I just want to illustrate how to do that. And the cool thing about scripture is that it's meant to be used together. So we can use the book of Revelation, but if all we study is Revelation, and we don't use other scriptures to help us, then we miss things.

And so I just want to show you how to do this, and you can have a little fun, um, practicing. And so if everyone will come to the end of verse 1, chapter 6, verse 1. You'll [00:11:00] see something that President, uh, Russell M. Nelson highlighted. And he said, in the book of Revelation, chapter 6, we're invited to come and see.

So my question is, come and see what? Well, I'm going to suggest to you come and see Jesus. Come and look. Yes. And you see this come and see invitation in verse three, in verse five, in verse seven. And it's really important that we know what we're coming to see. And so let me help you find Jesus. Let's just take a look at verse two, and I'll show you kind of how to use your other scriptures to look for where Jesus is in this particular seal.

So verse two says, and I saw and beheld a white horse. And he that sat on him had a bow, and a crown was given unto him, and he went forth conquering, and to conquer. That doesn't sound very Jesus like, when you're looking at it. Jesus is the Prince of Peace, he's not the Prince of War and Conquering, and so we can just kind of be a little confused.

Now if you use your [00:12:00] new int New Testament Institute manual, you'll see the interpretations there that Enoch is suggested as the person on the horse and We have this victory as the white horse and we have bow symbolizing warfare and crown Symbolizing conquer and so that's all really important for you to do, but if you don't go any further You're going to miss Jesus.

So how do we find him? What we do is we look at Enoch's time period. And we use the Pearl of Great Price to do that. And so I can actually stop my study right here and say, Okay, where is Enoch in my scriptures? And what can I learn about his interactions with Jesus? So, I'm going to ask all of us to just quickly go to our Pearl of Great Prices for a second and just go to Moses chapter 6.

And this is where Enoch is called to be the Lord's prophet. And I'm just going to highlight a few little verses. [00:13:00] Now you can go back and do a lot more in depth study with this. Then I'm going to do today. I'm just showing you how to do this. And so, where can I find Jesus in Revelation chapter 6 verse 2?

Moses chapter 6. And I'm going to have us go and start looking at verse 32. So right now, I am trying to find the Savior interacting with Enoch. And in verse 32 of Moses chapter 6, you'll see this. And the Lord said unto Enoch, Go forth, and do as I have commanded thee. And no man shall pierce thee. Open thy mouth, and it shall be filled.

And I will give the utterance. For all flesh is in my hands, and I will do as seemeth me good. If you'll all jump down to verse 34, it says, Behold, my spirit is upon you. Wherefore all thy words will I justify, and the mountains shall flee before you, and the rivers shall turn from their course, and thou shalt abide in [00:14:00] me, and I in you.

Therefore, walk with me. You could also jump down and look at verse 36. We won't do that today, because I'm conscious of our time. You could also jump over and look at verse 37, and 52, and so forth. But my point is to show you how to find Jesus. And if all you read is verse 2 of Revelation chapter 6, and you just think about Enoch, and all you see is war and conquering, you don't understand why Enos conquered.

Until you go and look at why he conquered. He conquered because he humbly submitted to a call of the Lord, he bravely faced his own weaknesses, and he let the Savior enable and enhance his abilities. Enoch goes on to create a translated city. of saints who become reborn and who become new creatures in the savior.

And he has this amazing victory, not [00:15:00] with warfare, but with Jesus and Jesus's power and conquering with the word of God and with the atonement. And so, look how cool this is, with chapter 6, it changes your fear, it changes the whole experience. If you stop and go looking for Jesus in the seal, and Jesus was very present in Enoch's day, and you see him healing and working and helping, uh, the people.

So that's a really cool way to keep looking through here and find the Savior in each of these seals.

Tammy Uzelac Hall: Really cool is an understatement. Jan, that was awesome! Okay, do another one, do another one. I love this.

Jan Martin: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So everyone go back to Revelation chapter 6 and we'll have a look. at verse, um, three and three and four.

So we'll look at our next one. Okay. So I'm going to read verses three and four of revelation chapter [00:16:00] six, just so you can follow along. So, and when he that's the lamb had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast come and see. So remember we're coming to see where Jesus is. And there went out another horse that was red.

And power was given to him that sat there on to take peace from the earth and that they should kill one another and that there was given unto him a great sword. Again, that does not sound nice. And at least initially, I am not finding anything about the Savior in that. It sounds really horrifying. So if you usually just New Testament Institute manual.

You'll find out that red horse represents bloodshed, sword, war, and destruction. And to us, that is everything against what the Savior would do. Um, modern Latter day Saints tend to read the second seal as the days of Noah. Okay. And so that's an LDS interpretation. So then we have to ask ourselves, how can I find Jesus in this?

So again, we're going to use other scripture, and we're going to go [00:17:00] look at Noah's experience. So I'm going to invite you again to use your Pearl of Great Price, and this time go to Moses chapter 8. Um, and we find more of Noah's experience here. Noah comes after Enoch. Noah is somebody that Enoch sees in a vision as a really good guy, and who's in this world of wickedness and trouble.

So if you come in, uh, Moses chapter 8, we'll just have a look at verse 20. And we watch Noah. Inviting people to repent. So verse 20 says, And it came to pass that Noah called upon the children of men that they should repent, that they hearkened not unto his words. Now if I can have you jump down to, to verse 24.

We'll just continue with his teaching. Okay, he says, Believe and repent of your sins and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, even as our fathers. And ye shall receive the Holy Ghost, that ye may have all things made manifest. And if ye do not this, the floods will come in [00:18:00] upon you.

Nevertheless, they hearkened not. And then if you'll jump down to look at verse 27. And thus Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. For Noah was a just man, and perfect in his generation, and he walked with God, as also did his three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth. Just to highlight these, because you see Jesus so clearly.

He's inviting the people of his day to come unto Christ, to repent, to participate in the atonement, to be cleansed, to be baptized, to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. And even though nobody listened, Noah and his family were faithful, and that's why they are protected. So, how do I find Jesus in this seal?

Right here. I see him offering himself to help these people. They reject him, but Noah does not. And he and his family participate with the atonement, and they have those spiritual gifts and those spiritual experiences. [00:19:00] And I think that's a really nice thing for us, because we kind of live in a day where a lot of people are rejecting repentance and the call to change, and don't understand the Savior.

But we do, and we can. And so here I am in just verses 3 and 4 of Revelation 6, and I have found Jesus, an encouragement to be strong in a day of wickedness. And I've only gotten into the first four verses.

Tammy Uzelac Hall: Okay, Jan, I'm having this crazy moment right now because well, in verse four where it says the horse that was red.

Oh my gosh, Jan, we teach that the color red is the atonement of Jesus Christ. Yes. Like, like, I always thought it was blood and destruction and death, but now this, this horse is.

Jan Martin: But that's the thing is, of course, people see it as destruction and death, and there was destruction and death, but only because people rejected the other blood.

Tammy Uzelac Hall: They [00:20:00] rejected the red horse.

Jan Martin: Yes. They rejected their salvation. They rejected the atonement, but that, that red and that blood was there too. And that's why we want to help you find Jesus here in the midst of all these other things. You can really have a great, powerful study session by slowing down and actually looking at these people and trying to find him.

Now I'm happy to do one more.

Tammy Uzelac Hall: Okay, please. Yes. Let's do one more. This is so fun. I can't believe all the notes that I'm putting in my scriptures. Like, yeah, I just, I just have to stop for a minute. Like I've never seen the red horse as the atonement of Jesus Christ. Oh, it's so cool. Okay. Okay. Okay. Next one.

Go.

Jan Martin: Okay. So let's go back to Revelation chapter six and let's have a look at verse five and we'll have a look at one more of the seals and let you just practice. Okay. Looking for Jesus in these verses. So, uh, if we come to verse five, it [00:21:00] says, and when he had opened the third seal, So the lamb, that's Jesus opening the third seal.

I heard the third beast say, come and see. So again, here's our invitation for Jesus. And I beheld and lo a black horse and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. So you use your New Testament manual. You'll see there the black horse typically represents famine, the balances, the high prices for food, and just a day where it was difficult to survive.

Physically, we're having lots of, um, problems with agriculture and the weather and things like that. So, uh, LDS interpretation tends to put this as Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob's day. So we can pick some three big prophets here and start going looking at their day and see if we could find Jesus. Now, I could have picked Jacob, but I'm just going to focus on Abraham just because he's the, the obvious one.

And so, what can we do? So again, we're going to use our Pearl of Great Price. Now, you can use Genesis if you'd like to, but I'm going to [00:22:00] start us off in Abraham. So, if you come in your Pearl of Great Price to the Book of Abraham, which is right after the Book of Moses. So, you just need to keep going a little ahead in your scriptures.

And let's just quickly look at one of my very favorite chapters to let you get to know Abraham and help you find Jesus in this seal that just seems to be so harsh. And you know, and everybody's dying of famine and you know, what's going on here? And so if you come to Abraham chapter 1, let's just have a look at verse 2.

And so it says here, and this is about Abraham's growing up years, and he says, and finding there was greater happiness and peace and rest for me. I sought for the blessings of the fathers, and the right whereunto I should be ordained to administer the same, having myself been a follower of righteousness, desiring also to be one who possessed great knowledge, and to be a greater follower of righteousness.

And to possess a greater knowledge, and to be a father of many [00:23:00] nations, a prince of peace, and desiring to receive instructions, and to keep the commandments of God, I became a rightful heir, a high priest, holding the right belonging to the fathers. So we've all been studying come follow me New Testament this year.

We've just been in the book of Hebrews just recently We've just looked at Paul's teachings on the great high priest. That is Jesus Christ And so verse 2 of Abraham is Abraham wanting to come into Christ and wanting all of the spiritual gifts and blessings that come through the Savior. And so if you jump over to just turn your page over and just jump over to verse 16.

Now, there's a lot you can do between verse one and verse 16 and finding Jesus, but you do need to remember Abraham's experience because he becomes a follower of Jesus. He gets turned over to these priests of, uh, Pharaoh, and they're going to execute him. They're going to kill him, and he's lying there on the altar, and he's like, [00:24:00] Help me!

And then verse 16, and his voice, this is Jesus's voice, or Jehovah's voice, was unto me, Abraham, Abraham, behold, my name is Jehovah. And I have heard thee, and have come down to deliver thee, and to take thee away from thy father's house, and from all thy kin's folk, into a strange land which thou knowest not of.

So this is the beginning of the Abrahamic Covenant. But where do we find Jesus? We find him in Abraham's life as someone offering him greater blessings. We find him as a deliverer in Abraham's life, someone who comes in and rescues him from a really difficult moment and then sets up a covenant and then Abraham follows him the rest of his life.

And you can study Abraham all through Genesis and see where Jesus is in helping him become somebody. And so again, look what we've done. We're only in verse 5. And we just started looking deeper at these [00:25:00] seals and what's going on in them and where Jesus is. And he's present in everyone and he's doing miraculous things and he's helping people and covening with people and sharing spiritual gifts with people.

So we need to be careful not to read the book of Revelation as gloom and doom because it isn't. But you have to look deeper to see it.

Tammy Uzelac Hall: Well, and now I'm seeing a pair of balances in his hand to mean for me this idea of justice and mercy, which is the bedrock of the Abrahamic covenant. I mean, that is what it's all about and what the Lord does for us through the covenant.

So I've, I've never seen it that way. I've always seen the pair of balances as weighing the food for how much money you have. Exactly. But that does, we don't even hear about that until the next verse. Exactly. So these balances, this Abrahamic covenant comes in as a reminder to come and see.

Jan Martin: Yeah. And I love your, your concept of the balances because you've got these troubles in the world.

You've got plenty of adversity. You have [00:26:00] people who are starving and having problems, but Jesus comes to balance that out by giving us other blessings and other things to help us with the difficulties and mortality. So. I love our, you know, typical interpretations of these icons and they do help us get started.

But once you start looking for Jesus and you start seeing him in the dispensation we're talking about, then you see the symbols a little more deeply and what they really might have to offer. And that's important because then we love the book of Revelation instead of being afraid of it. If that makes sense.

Tammy Uzelac Hall: Oh, it totally does. Okay. Jan, that was awesome. That was so great.

Jan Martin: Okay. You can do that with every single seal. And so this is why we recommend you get out your New Testament manual and go through and look at the seals and start with your basic understanding because that's going to give you an idea of who to look for.

Like if we were going to do the fourth seal and you start looking at the interpretation that this symbolizes the time periods of those [00:27:00] great empires like the Syria, Egypt, Babylon, Persia, and Greece. then you can put Lehi in here because he's in that Syria Babylon time period. And then you can go to the book of Mormon, holy moly, and you can start looking for Jesus.

Okay. And if all you want to do is look at Lehi, Or you want to look at Nephi, or you want to look at the Nephites as a whole and look for Jesus. You've just spent a whole time going, Oh my goodness, where was Jesus in this seal? And he is with a promised group of people and leading them to a promised land and establishing them there and being their God.

And boy, can you have fun with that. And you can keep doing that with every seal. So it just opens this up. It just makes it fun. It puts us in a place to see why would John spend all this time on these seals? And, uh, like I told you at the beginning, this is an invitation to come and see the depth of [00:28:00] Jesus's participation in the world's history.

And he's always tried to be connected with. people.

Tammy Uzelac Hall: Jan, thank you so much. I've gone through now and highlighted every time we have come and see. And I put at the top of chapter six in big letters, come and see and I highlighted that because that's what we did. The invitation was to come and see Jesus. So Thank you.

You are welcome. Okay. So this is kind of cool. Then here's what I want to tackle in the next segment. One of the most cryptic verses that I think in all of revelation about another seal or a specific number of people that get sealed. So help us come and see what exactly we're talking about. And let's, let's kind of blow that out of the water and let's do that in the next segment.

Segment 3

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Tammy Uzelac Hall: All right, let's get into Revelation chapter seven. Okay, you guys, a lot of you have heard this before. This [00:29:00] is kind of crazy stuff. I think it's cryptic. I always wondered what it meant. And so we're going to just dive into this. Revelation chapter seven, and we have verse four. I'll read this and then I'm going to let Jan just help us.

Here we go. Verse four says, And I heard the number of them which were sealed, and there were sealed a hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. So if you've ever heard that 144, 000 are the only group of people that will make it, they're the only people that will be sealed to Christ.

What are we really talking about here? And how does chapter seven connect us to Jesus?

Jan Martin: Thanks, Tammy. It's really fun. Again, chapter seven is one of my favorites again. It's what we call an interlude. It kind of interjects in between the idea of the seals and things, and we're just going to kind of have a really close up look at the Savior and what He's doing with people.

And so, um, if you guys want to use D& C section 77, this is a good place to do that. Because we've had previous people asking these kind of [00:30:00] questions of what, what we're under, are to understand by this and that and the other in the book of Revelation. So if everyone will come to D& C section 77, we can look at that.

It's verse 11 is where, uh, we have that question. Um, and I just love the idea, as we were talking about Joseph Smith, early leaders of the church and early members went to him with their scriptural questions, and then Joseph went to the Lord. So again, we're finding Jesus. We're talking to him about things that don't make sense to us, and he's giving us additional revelation.

And so verse 11 says, what are we to understand by the sealing of the 144, 000 out of all the tribes of Israel? 12, 000 out of every tribe. So here comes the answer coming back to Joseph through the Savior. We are to understand that those who are sealed are high priests ordained unto the holy order of God to administer the everlasting gospel.

For they are they who are ordained out of every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, by [00:31:00] the angels, to whom is given power over the nations of the earth, to bring as many as will come to the church of the first. So, like you said, Tammy, we need to get away from that erroneous understanding that the only people who will be able to be with the Savior in the end are this 144, 000.

This is a representation of priesthood holders who have keys to do missionary work from every nation on this planet. And it's, it's a symbol. And so I wouldn't even limit it to 144, 000. I think we're just getting a number here that, that seems large to us and representing this, this worldwide missionary effort that we're making.

To bring people from all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people to the Savior. And so once we see the organization here of the missionary work, and then when you like start reading verses 5, 6, 7, 8 of Revelation chapter 7, you get the list [00:32:00] of all the tribes of Israel. And again, everyone who comes unto Christ through baptism joins.

You'll be able to have a patriarchal blessing, you'll be able to see which particular tribe you come through. And so again, this is all symbolic of people coming unto the Savior from all of Abraham's seed. And then if you come to verse nine, this is what's so cool. After this, I beheld in low a great multitude, which no man could number of all nations.

Tammy Uzelac Hall: Can we just stop there for a minute? Yeah. Just everybody highlight that, which no, a great multitude, which no man could number that phrase that is filled with so much hope because I think Satan wants to limit us even to less than 144, 000. Like if any of us thought it was just that seems like knows only five people are going to make it.

Um, and so we just reframed 144, 000, but right here, verse nine. And I love how you said, Jan, anyone who's baptized. It's to join into this [00:33:00] whole house of Israel and look how many there will be a great multitude which no man can number so many people are going to make it. Oh, I love that. Okay. Carry on.

Jan Martin: I love it.

Especially to this day and age where we feel like religion is being attacked and there's nobody supporting us and we're all alone. We're not, we're not alone. And these revelations, I think, again, are designed to give us hope. And to recognize that God's power is greater than Satan's power and Jesus is working in our seal And he is offering the atonement and there are people who are interested In fact, there's so many people we can't number them.

And so we need to stop feeling like we're obscure small You know, yeah people that nobody wants to listen to um, because we have This great promise that people are going to listen and we are going to be successful. And so as we're reading verse nine, you know, all of these nations, kindreds and people and tongues stood before the throne and before [00:34:00] the lamb, there's Jesus clothed with white robes.

and palms in their hands. So white, a symbol of purity, there, as we know. And the palms, again, are symbolizing victory. And they hearken back to the triumphal entry of Jesus coming into Jerusalem in the meridian of time. And it stands for the conquering and the, the victory and the joy that comes with that.

And so, wow! You know, how can you read this and not sit there and just go, this is so great. There's going to be success. I don't need to be showering in fear while I read Revelation. There's a lot of symbols here that give me hope and point me to the Savior, that we're going to be successful. We're going to get there in the end.

And the dark days I might feel right now are temporary.

Tammy Uzelac Hall: Yeah. Jan, one of the things that struck me that you said, I don't even know if you knew you said it, but I wrote it down because it hit my heart was when you said Jesus is working in our seal. [00:35:00] I think sometimes we forget that we really think we're alone in this or that we've been forgotten.

And so I'm grateful you said that Jesus is working in our seal. And, and it draws me to verse 12. Last episode with Don Perry, we talked about all the different names for the Savior in the book of Revelation. And my favorite one was the Amen. That's one of Jesus's name. And verse 12 starts with Amen and ends with Amen.

And we talked about the Hebrew definition of the word Amen, which means to have faith in or complete trust. And so when I'm reading this saying, Amen. Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be unto our God forever and ever. Amen, or in whom I have trust, in whom I have faith.

To me, that is just like that verse is the totality of his perfections. It is. Perfectly describing who he is to every one of us right now in this seal.

Jan Martin: [00:36:00] Yeah, and it's beautiful that the people who are standing around this throne and the angels that are there and everyone, they're saying this. This is one of our, like, expressions of thanksgiving and joy that we make that kind of a statement.

And then if you wanted to follow it along, if you look at verse 13, you know, one of the elders is asking this question of John, what are these which are arrayed in the white robes and whence came they? And then John gets this great understanding, sir, thou knowest. And he said unto me, these are they which came out of great tribulation.

So again, when we're looking at the sixth seal, this is our seal, you know, and we're coming out of this time period of tumult and great tribulation and attacking things that we hold dear and the families under attack and everything spirituals seems to just be things that people don't want to do. But this is what's coming.

to, to happen to us so we can rely on the atonement. [00:37:00] This tribulation helps you turn to the Savior and helps you wash your robes and make them white in the blood of the Lamb. And so, you know, one, one thing I always like to tell my students is don't resent your trials and tribulations. Because without them, you wouldn't know why you needed a savior.

You wouldn't have a reason to turn to him. And you wouldn't come to know the great power that he offers us. And when we always are prospering and everything always goes well, you tend to not rely on the savior in the same way. Sadly, and so tribulation just just brings us closer to him and helps us find The Savior and lets him pour that power that he's got into our lives to help us And so, you know, this is why verse 12 is so important.

We're all going to be able to say this because the Savior came and did all of this for us.

Tammy Uzelac Hall: Okay. So all of us who get to say those beautiful words, [00:38:00] all of us who have come out of great tribulation, I really like how it says, not just tribulation, but great tribulation and many listening know what that feels like. We just have to end with verses 16 and 17 of course, because it's like if you're sitting in great tribulation, if you've been through it, you're going to want verse 16 and 17.

So teach us that.

Jan Martin: Yeah, okay, so 16, we're in Revelation chapter 7, verse 16. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more. Neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

So, I mean, wow, talk about poetry, talk about beauty, all of our hungers, all of our thirsts, all of our needs, all of our disappointments, all of the things that felt unjust or unfair or [00:39:00] that we didn't get to experience in this life for whatever reason, um, that will all be rectified and there will be no more tears. So now, I think tears of sorrow is probably a reference here rather than tears of joy. I think there's gonna be plenty of tears of joy. Sometimes we're more emotional when we're happy than we are when we're sad. But I think the the reference here is the tears of sorrow from that great tribulation, from the things that weren't fair, from the things that were withheld, or the things that were hard, or the things that were hurtful, all of that will be made right.

And we won't have any more complaints. So, wow.

Tammy Uzelac Hall: Yeah. In fact, I wrote to the outside of those verses as you were talking, I want to come and see this. Like, I want to be there. Come and see. That is, that's the goal of the come and see if you can just look for Christ. Oh. No more tears from their [00:40:00] eyes. That's one of my favorite verses right there in Revelation.

Jan Martin: So, you know, in our efforts to find Jesus in just these two small chapters, look what we've managed to do just because we put that lens on and we were looking. Um, and it just opens up these chapters in a more spiritually positive way.

So we don't need to be afraid of the book of Revelation.

Tammy Uzelac Hall: Oh my gosh, awesome. Jan, thank you so much. That was so fun to discuss that. Okay, so here we go. We're going to wrap that up and in the next segment, we're going to jump into more. We're going to look for more Jesus. Oh, I can't wait to do this.

Segment 4

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Tammy Uzelac Hall: All right, so we are going to look at Revelation chapter 8 and 9. Now here's what I want everyone to do. If you turn to Revelation chapter 9, at the top of my page, this is what I have written that kind of sums up [00:41:00] chapter 8 and 9. It says this, the purpose of these events that accompany the blowing of this trump is to encourage humankind to repent of many grievous sins.

That's the point of chapter eight and nine. Jan's going to teach us a little bit about these, and then we're going to dive into something really cool. So Jan, tell us about eight and nine. What else do we want to know?

Jan Martin: Um, I would just give kind of an overview of the intention. Remember we're looking for Jesus, and whenever we study this book, we have to remember the Lord's purposes.

And sometimes, again, like we've said, when you read these and you're focusing on the wrong things, you can get really disturbed or really, um, the wrong idea about God. You somehow think He's this horrible person who's unleashing these plagues and doing all these terrible things that are hurtful. Um, but what I usually do with chapter 8, is, um, have a look at verse 3, chapter 8, verse 3.

And what you see as the [00:42:00] opening part of it is the prayers of all the saints. So if you look right towards the bottom of chapter, or chapter 8, verse 3, you'll see that this golden censer and all of this stuff is a symbol of the prayers of the saints. And I don't know about you, but when I pray for other people, I'm not praying that they're going to be judged or condemned or, you know, that's a natural man prayer.

When I'm actually praying for the will of the Savior, I actually pray for people to have hearts softened, to be more interested in the gospel, to be more open to truth, you know, those kinds of things. And so I imagine these prayers in verse three have a lot to do with concerned people on earth who are watching wickedness.

And who are asking for help like can you soften people up? What can we do but sometimes the best softening is trial? Natural consequences and so as you read first or chapter 8 you'll see Plagues that have to do with vegetation in the ocean and [00:43:00] fresh water and sky and different things and to me that suggests just natural Consequences, natural disasters, that sometimes bring out the best in people.

That soften people up, that help them realize they need to rely on the Lord. And so you can find Jesus even in all of that, if you know how to see that. And so I would just say chapter 8 is learning to repent when you have natural adversity. Yes. Then, 9, we have a look at Satan. We have a look at his power.

We have a look at all the terrible things he does. And we have to remember that this is a chapter where Satan is acting. This isn't God. This is Satan. And so it just gives you a good look at the wickedness and the damage that wickedness does and that Satan has. And so as you wrote above yours, I would echo that same thing.

That chapter 9 reminds us that wickedness is sometimes a way to turn people to repentance. Because they taste the negativity of sin, [00:44:00] and they don't like it, and it hurts, and it's not happy, and there's no light in that, and that can actually drive people to repent. So again, the whole purpose of this is to help us find our Savior, who is the person who brings the The balm, the healing from all of the participation in worldly and wicked things that bring damage to us.

And so the purpose of that is to, to humble us and drive us to find the savior. So then, we can hit chapter 10, which is another one of those interludes or pauses, as you've said. Um, and then we can look at some other fun little Um, things that will help us find the Savior there too. Yes.

Tammy Uzelac Hall: Okay. So I just have to go back though, cause I really like how you said, taste the negativity of sin.

Like you made sin, I've never considered it so tangible, but you're right. When we sin, it is like, that's why we literally say puts a bad taste in your mouth. You're so good at describing things. I love the way you're so [00:45:00] descriptive. Like nine is you do, that's what's going on in nine people. I have a new thing for 9 now.

Jan Martin: it's tasting the negativity of sin negativity, and it just kind of warns us as we're looking towards the latter days and heading towards sin coming, that the negativity is going to be profound, that there's going to be a tremendous amount of wickedness, and we already know that. But wickedness. is a teaching tool.

Like I know that most of us, we learn the most from our mistakes, right? Don't we? Like I profoundly learn more when I mess up often than I do when I get it right. And so sometimes with the prayers of the saints, wanting people on earth to change and repent, sometimes we need them to experience the evil, like Nephi or Lehi teaches that in second Nephi two, we need to taste the bitter so that we know the sweet.

And this is just a repentance tool. It's not, um, a tool here to be scary or to threaten people, uh, God doesn't work with that. [00:46:00] He just wants people to repent. And sometimes we need a really big call to change. And wickedness helps us do that.

Tammy Uzelac Hall: Yeah. And I'm looking at verses 20 and 21 of chapter nine. I mean that those two verses describe.

Yeah. All facets of sin, all that we could ever do or taste, as you said. Yeah.

Jan Martin: Yeah. And the sad thing is, is they experience all of this and they choose not to repent. Right. The point of it is to give you that option to choose. And now you're making your choice. Now we know. Um, but I hope that we're wiser than that.

And when we, um, participate in things that we know aren't right and we've learned from that, that it does help us. Change and it does help us be humble and repent and make a better choice there.

Tammy Uzelac Hall: Yeah, so we have all this heavy talk in Revelation eight and nine about repent, repent, repent. And then we love that John just goes, okay, pause for a minute.

And so Revelation chapter 10 is what's called an interlude [00:47:00] or a pause. I put pause right next to the number 10 because he does this. It's, it's kind of one of the ways that John writes. He's kind of taking a break now and he's going to teach us something new before we get back into all the stuff we've been talking about.

But this pause is really fun. So everyone grabs something to highlight your scriptures with. And what we want you to do is you're going to highlight this little phrase. It's called, it's, it's just two words. It's called little book because it is said in verse two, it says right there. And he had in his hand a little book.

You're like, huh? Okay. Well, then it's again in verse eight. And there's little book in verse nine, and then there's little book in verse 10. So I asked Jan to teach us what is this little book and why is he told to eat it in verse nine? That's weird. It's so

Jan Martin: fun. There's so much. Yeah. Tell us about the little book.

Okay. Before we do the little book. I just want to point out verse one of who the messenger is, right? We have this mighty angel coming from heaven, clothed with a cloud. We've got the rainbow, [00:48:00] which is a direct connection to the covenant made with Noah and the earth. We're not going to have a big flood or whatever, so you need to connect to your Old Testament there.

Um, and his face as were the sun and his feet as pillars of fire. And I just want to contrast him with chapter 9 verse 1, as Satan who fell from heaven and is this evil thing. Now John See the opposite. So we like the contrast and we're now going to have a messenger from heaven who doesn't fall from heaven, who descends. Okay.

Then I just want to point out the symbolism of feet. Feet symbolize power of possession, and so just remember Satan is only a tool. He doesn't own the earth He will eventually be conquered, but God when he comes down he this is his footstool, right? And we have this I'm owning the earth. I'm in control I've got this covered and now I have a little [00:49:00] book and the book symbol of John's ministry on earth And so he has a little history.

He has a little, I love the idea of the book of recording someone's life. And this is what we need you to do. We all come to earth with a purpose. And John's getting his purpose. And we love that he's accepting that. And then he's invited to eat it. So let's read verse 9. We've got this little book. And verse 9 in chapter 10 says, And I went unto the angel and said unto him, Give me the little book.

So, to me, that's a symbol of accepting our mission on earth. And we all have one. Everyone came down here to do something specific for the Lord. And so you see this humble accepting of the mission. And then he, the angel, said unto me, Take it and eat it up. So this is about ingesting. ingesting my mission on earth and digesting it and [00:50:00] having all of that go into my system.

So I'm being nourished and I become this. Like, it's going to become a part of me, and to me, this is very symbolic of submitting my will to God, and letting Him dictate what my mission on earth is, letting Him help me figure that out, and then embracing it, and going for it, and having God's will and mission become a real part of my body.

That's the symbolism of the eating. It's so brilliant. Um, we all eat things, you know, we all know that phrase, you are what you eat, you know, that could be sometimes diet or whatever, but that's the concept of becoming the person that God intended me to be on earth. So I can complete my mission. What did I come down here to do?

So then he's warned, it shall make thy belly bitter, but what? [00:51:00] It shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey. So you start considering a mission on earth isn't going to be a walk in the park. There's going to be, as we saw in the previous chapters, adversity, tribulation. Hard things that are gonna cause me a little indigestion.

Don't you love that this concept of

Tammy Uzelac Hall: yeah, I love these two words Like there are no two words that could better describe life bitter and sweet Yeah, I mean it also harkens to you know, the Garden of Eden and Eve like she knew and so you're like Oh, oh boy bitter and sweet indeed.

Jan Martin: We've all had Something not agree with us.

We've all had food poisoning. We've all had something with our bellies that have made us uncomfortable, but we all have things in life that are, that are like that, that are going to be difficult, but in the end. Everything I went through because of the [00:52:00] atonement will become sweet to me. Now, I don't know about you, Tammy, but some of the hardest times in my life, when I look back on those really hard times, and I've gotten through them, and it's worked out, and it's fine, but I then become someone who looks back on that and sees the whole experience differently.

So the whole experience becomes sweet instead of this, ooh, that was awful, now it's over and I'm glad. I actually realized that that was a refining moment for me and it has become precious as hard as it was.

Tammy Uzelac Hall: Um, let me ask you this. Would you, would you mind sharing this specific experience? Is that so personal?

Jan Martin: Well, I've had many, so, um, to just help my audience get to know me a little bit better, um, I was a long time single member of the church. So I did not get married in my twenties or thirties. I didn't find my husband [00:53:00] until I was 41. So that experience of being alone in a family-oriented church for 23 years, I was single and had to do the horrible dating thing.

Dating is no fun. But to have to do it for two decades, was, was

Tammy Uzelac Hall: bitter. Very bitter experience. . So bitter, painful, ,

Jan Martin: and going to church sometimes was hard. Because people can be very judgmental of single people. And they just kept looking at me and going, what's your problem? You're just too picky. Like, can't you just find someone?

And I'm like, do you have any idea how hard I've tried to find someone? If you knew how much effort I put into being a good person and trying to be better at dating and how much, how many single things I went to. And like, you could never tell me I didn't try. Cause I did. But that 23 years was an incredibly refining, Time for me [00:54:00] of learning how to be happy on my own to be who I was to stand up for myself to, um, just really learned that, that I had a savior.

And even if I didn't have a husband, I was still value and I didn't need to hang my head and I was okay. Like there was nothing wrong with me though. Lots of people were telling me there was something wrong with me. Oh sure. Yeah. And so I found my husband over in England and it has been the sweetest experience.

I've been married about 12 years and um, I now look back on my single life and think, wow, It has made me who I am and that has made my marriage richer. Everything I learned during my single time has allowed me to be a better spouse. I'm a stepmom to six children and I've had to use all of my [00:55:00] ingenuity and learning how to be an individual to be a stepmom.

Like, it's hard. It's hard to be, uh, put in that spot when people don't really want you.

Tammy Uzelac Hall: Can I get an amen? You know, the woman

Jan Martin: that comes into this situation and nobody's happy that you're there, you know. Um, but all of that strength of character of, of learning to do hard things has really been valuable.

And I now look on my 23 years of singlehood with this feeling of, oh, how sweet it was even though it was terribly hard, but it has made everything richer and better now.

Tammy Uzelac Hall: Jan, thank you. Thank you. I appreciate you sharing that because I didn't prep you for that. And that was, that was powerful though. And, and many of us need to be reminded that it is that bitter that builds our foundation and makes things so much more sweet.

And I look at this idea of the little book and everyone [00:56:00] listening, like, what is your little book? What is written in your little book and are you willing to eat it? Or how many of you have been fighting that because you know it's not going to taste good and you're afraid it never will be sweet. But as witnessed by our guest today, Jan.

It does become sweet, and we know it does. That's the promise through the atonement of Jesus Christ. He makes the bitter sweet. And so I am so thankful for this pause that John gave us, because you read all these chapters and you feel anxiety and you're nervous and you're scared. But when you find Jesus, then you can say, Okay, now wait a minute.

Let's just think about me and my role here on earth and how that connects me to Christ before we move on. So Jan, thank you for perfectly doing that. It's great. Okay, so in the next segment then we're gonna dive into some real symbols. We're gonna get a little carried away maybe with some symbols, but they will indeed connect us to Christ and we will do that next.[00:57:00]

All right, let's go to Revelation chapter 12. Now for reals you guys, you're gonna need Something to mark your scriptures with, a pen to write a lot of notes in. Maybe you want sticky notes, whatever it is, we're going to dive into some words and what they mean. I love this chapter because it opened my eyes to what so many things could mean in scripture.

So we're just going to start with verse one and let's go through this and talk about this part of the revelation that John has. Here we go. So Jan, how do you want to do this? If you

Jan Martin: want to lead, I'm happy to just kind of let you go and I'll jump in where you need commentary. Sure. Yeah.

Tammy Uzelac Hall: So we'll just read these verses.

We are going to use the Joseph Smith translation of Revelation chapter 12. You're going to want that as we study this, and we're going to follow along and read through, and we're going to go back and forth, and we're going to mark some things in this. So, let's go there. [00:58:00] Revelation chapter 12, JST verse 1.

Okay, Jan, I'm going to have you read for us, and then we'll just kind of stop with some words that we want to mark.

Jan Martin: So verse one, we're all in the JST in the back of your appendix, if you're not sure where that is behind your Bible dictionary. So look for JST Revelation 12, one through 17. So verse one, and there appeared a great sign in heaven in the likeness of things on the earth.

A woman clothed with the sun and the moon under her feet and upon her head a crown of twelve stars. Okay, so

Tammy Uzelac Hall: right

Jan Martin: there. Yes. So for me, the operative word would be woman. Mm hmm. I want to start with her, but I do like to point out that phrase, in the likeness of things on the earth. So we are being symbolic here and we just need to remember that we're using symbols that are simpler to help us understand more complicated ideas.

So Tammy, what do you like about [00:59:00] woman? What does that do for you? Well,

Tammy Uzelac Hall: I'm a big fan of this because the word woman in scripture is a symbol of Christ church. And um, anyone who knows me knows my big thing is the proverb of a virtuous woman. And so I believe that that proverb is geared towards all of Christ's people, not just ladies.

So anytime you read about a woman in scripture, it is Christ's church. So here we have. A woman, or Christ's church, Christ's people, whom we have clothed with the sun. Now, what we're going to highlight sun. You want to highlight moon. You want to highlight stars. You want to highlight a crown. I mean, there's so many things here, Jan.

So tell us what significant we have this woman or Christ church clothed with the sun. What does that mean?

Jan Martin: Well, I, I love the symbolism of the plan of salvation here, and that's immediately what I do with this. You can do a lot of things. That's the beauty of symbols. But to me, we're looking [01:00:00] at the plan of salvation and what the church will do, how it's dressed, like in President, um, Dallin H.

Oaks gave his great talk kingdoms of glory and conference just recently to remind us of this. And he pointed out that the purpose of the church Is to point us to the highest degree of the celestial kingdom. That's the point. We have all the ordinances. We have all the things that will help us qualify for a life in the highest level of celestial kingdom.

So that's what the clothing of the sun means to me is that she has become Celestialized. She's dressed in the clothes and robes of the Holy Priesthood, probably, and she's representing that highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom. And then you look at what's under her feet. Well, of course. You have the terrestrial kingdom there, and then you have our little 12 stars.

Now, other people have used that symbol there as being, um, symbolizing the 12, quorum of the 12, or 12 tribes [01:01:00] of Israel. Like, there's lots of things you could do with the 12 stars, but it's interesting that we have stars, and that they're part of this whole picture, and you can think about the three degrees of glory and the different choices people make, um, and that the kingdom of God encompasses all kingdoms of glory.

Right. All of his children will be saved in a kingdom of glory, but the woman, the church, the church of the firstborn is celestialized material. So I love that if you stick with the church and if you keep those covenants and stay on your covenant path. That's where the church is taking you, is to the highest level.

Tammy Uzelac Hall: And I'm grateful you've pointed out that that's the ultimate goal. That that's not right now, here and now. Like, it's the point of the church is to point us to the celestial kingdom. So can we all just breathe for a minute on

Jan Martin: that? Yeah, like we're on our way. It's

Tammy Uzelac Hall: a journey. Yeah, it's a journey. Very good.

Okay, then verse two, And the woman, being with child, cried. Travailing in birth and pained to be delivered. Now, [01:02:00] how many times did I teach this? And I had no idea what it meant until I finally was pregnant. But these next couple of verses are startling to me when I read how they are. So anyone who a woman or the church being with child.

So you want to mark the word child right there. The word child. I thought that was interesting because what I found out is child is the kingdom of God

Jan Martin: and the woman has Christ is there as well. It's grace. So

Tammy Uzelac Hall: yeah, perfect. I'm so glad you said that.

Jan Martin: You have this really nice connection to just marry the mother of Jesus, you know, you just get this connection to what a her birth.

And, um, being the mother of the son of God and just how that fits into the kingdom of God. We have to have a savior. Yeah. And so you just, then you get this fun, that's why this, this woman imagery is so fun is you can do the large one church of God, but then you can do this, [01:03:00] Ooh, you know, what do women contribute in there, the beginning of the begetters of life.

And then you're bringing Jesus who is, is the one who's going to give us eternal life. So that is so fun. It's so rich. You could have a lot of fun with. With different interpretations of that.

Tammy Uzelac Hall: Oh, I really like that. Yes, that is powerful powerful imagery for women in general

Jan Martin: Yeah And you just think about poor Mary in this lowly little barn somewhere and pain Surveilling to try and bring forth the Savior of mankind who is gonna make the whole kingdom of God something that works Like, it's because of Him.

We're looking for Jesus, if you remember. And it's nice to have a kingdom, but we can't be in the kingdom unless we go through Jesus Christ to get there.

Tammy Uzelac Hall: Okay. Well, then keep reading for us. Read verses three and four and five.

Jan Martin: All right. Verse three. And she brought forth a man child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron.

And her child was caught up unto God and His throne. Now we need to be really careful with [01:04:00] that rod of iron. because if we read it from a worldly perspective, you just get this idea that whoever this man child is, it's a representative of Christ, but he's going to rule with some kind of dictatorship or some rod of iron.

But when you remember the vision of the tree of life in first Nephi chapter eight, you remember. We're, we're ruling with the word of God, iron rod is the word of God and the word of God is not a dictatorship. It's all about agency and it's all about choice and it's all about you choosing to be part of that iron rod or not.

You know, and then you get this whole connection to Lehi and the whole vision of the tree of life, uh, there. And so I like that as long as we're careful to not see the savior as some kind of. worldly dictator who just beats people into submission with his, you know, staff.

Tammy Uzelac Hall: Yeah, that rod of iron makes sense.

The word of God. Okay,

Jan Martin: verse four. [01:05:00] And there appeared another sign in heaven and behold a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns upon his head. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven and did cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman, which was delivered, ready to devour her child.

After it was born.

Tammy Uzelac Hall: That startles me every time I read it.

Jan Martin: So powerful, you just see this red dragon just suddenly appearing, you know.

Tammy Uzelac Hall: Okay, so who is, what is that red dragon?

Jan Martin: Well the typical interpretation is Satan. Mm hmm. He's the great nemesis, he's the antagonist of Jesus Christ. If you remember the, the teachings we have about premortality, Satan wanted to be a The only begotten son, there seems to be some sibling rivalry, at least on his side.

I don't think Jesus is playing that game, but you don't need two people to play that game. You can be a rival whether the [01:06:00] other person knows about it or not. But I love the idea of the dragon, um, because it just suggests something really monstrously angry.

Tammy Uzelac Hall: Ooh, now I like that.

Jan Martin: You know, just someone who's just really lost his temper or somebody who was really angry at not being chosen.

Um, scriptures often describe, uh, Satan as a vessel of wrath and just that wrath. You know, dragon is a really great, uh, symbol for, for powerfully angry attacking. A person, Revelation later on, also teaches us that Satan is the great accuser. Right. He accuses the saints night and day, and you can just see this angry symbol of, I'm just going to go after you guys, because I'm upset.

I didn't get what I wanted, um, and wow, you know, and that just tells you a little bit about Satan. He's powerful enough in verse four that he deceives and leads us astray. A lot of God's [01:07:00] children, we call that the third of the hosts of heaven. And they're down here with him now, continuing on to accuse, and tempt, attack, and do everything they can to wreck our eternal progression.

So, you know, pretty powerful symbols when you think about it.

Tammy Uzelac Hall: It is. And when you read the seven heads, ten horns, seven crowns, you go, Oh, that's great. What in the world? But again, when we learned this with Don Perry, the symbolism of numerology and what the numbers mean, and then the symbols, I mean, ten horns, we learned horn is a symbol of power.

But for me, it's counterfeit. It's counterfeit power. It's counterfeit wisdom with the heads. It's counterfeit, um, Power with crowns,

Jan Martin: like the seven is the perfection number and just the perfection of counter stuff like,

Tammy Uzelac Hall: yeah, that's exactly it. And this idea that he is just waiting to pounce. I mean, here is this woman.

Giving birth and that I [01:08:00] think what struck me is it's so interesting that when a woman when you're ready to give birth, you can't stop it. You can't decide all of a sudden, wait, I'm not ready, or this probably isn't the best time when that child's ready to come. Yeah. Let me hide first. No matter where you are, you stop so you can give birth.

And this idea that Satan right there, the dragon stood before the woman, which was delivered ready to devour her child after it was born. And it took me back to that scripture that we have in Peter, where it talks about how Satan is like a lion seeking whom he may devour. I mean, there's that word again.

I mean, he's just, it is a ruthless wording, nothing left.

Jan Martin: So dragon ish, you know,

Tammy Uzelac Hall: that's what dragons do, you know, they devour in mythology,

Jan Martin: get the devouring beast. But it's really interesting too, as you, as you're pointing out that, that this The dragon is ready to devour the child, the church and the kingdom of God, and, or the, the kingdom of God and his Christ, [01:09:00] right at the beginning.

Like, he doesn't even want it to grow or get anywhere or do anything. He's, he's ready to just jump on that. And I just also, because I'm teaching New Testament right now, go back to when Jesus was born. Herod, the great was out to kill him right from the beginning. There was this adversity and this poor young family had to be protected from that and then had to be going to Egypt for a long time.

So Christ could grow up like, and you can just see the connections to everything that Jesus himself went through. But then if you consider the restoration, for example, and the church. Which is this kingdom of God on earth kind of thing and how quickly Satan was doing everything he could to prevent the restoration.

You've got him in the grove. Right there. When Joseph's trying to have this vision, he's pouncing and trying to devour him right there. And then everything [01:10:00] after that, you know, this fledgling church is just being persecuted and you know, there's so much connection there and to Jesus's life or the church that we know today and its existence.

And what happened to them and the constant attacks of Satan.

Tammy Uzelac Hall: Yeah. Wow. Absolutely. Well then let's just end with verse five.

Jan Martin: Yeah. Okay. Verse five. And the woman fled into the wilderness where she had a place prepared of God that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and three score years.

Tammy Uzelac Hall: Tell me about that verse. Well, to me,

Jan Martin: um, you don't have the, the complete destruction of the church. You know, you've got, um, the church of God there. What you have is periods where it seems to be. In the wilderness, and it seems to be, um, not doing very well. And, um, so, to me, it just suggests that the Church of God on Earth is going to have a [01:11:00] rough time of it.

It's not going to be in the palace, it's not going to be living in the place where it's popular, where everybody wants to be a part of it. The Kingdom of God, Church of God itself, is going to have Trial and trouble and problems and um, it's going to have obscurity issues and it's going to need to come out of the wilderness and it's going to, you know, just struggle in mortality, you know, the, it's going to be when Christ comes the second time that the, that everything becomes what it should be and the mortal existence of it is just going to be rough to me.

Yes. Yeah. I don't know.

Tammy Uzelac Hall: No. Well, and I'm grateful that you said it's going to be rough because we love verse 11 then. So how do we win? Like, how do we overcome in the midst of it being so hard? For me, the key is verse 11. I mean, I highlighted this, I put stars and hearts and everything because verse 11 is so beautiful.

Jan, read that for us.

Jan Martin: Okay. [01:12:00] So we're Revelation, uh, chapter 12, verse 11, for they have overcome him by the blood of the lamb. And by the word of their testimony, for they love not their own lives, but kept the testimony, even unto death. Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and ye that dwell in them.

Tammy Uzelac Hall: Oh, I mean, just the power of, we know that it is the blood of the Lamb, but what strikes me is, and by the word of their testimony, and they love not their lives unto death.

Jan Martin: That. You know, you think of people like Abinadi, And all of these people who, who lived this, who stood up for the Savior, Abinadi is one of the most powerful prophets in teaching Jesus Christ. He just teaches Jesus Christ to the priests of King Noah in all these different ways. And they put him to death for it.

They get him on a blasphemy charge. And they execute him for saying things doctrinally that they think aren't true, but [01:13:00] he's basically saying God himself is going to come down here and do this atonement for us. And then he testifies of that and refuses to take back his testimony. You know, he says, you can put me to death all you want.

But I'm not taking back my words. And so someone like Abinadi just fits verse 11 and that's kind of what we're being asked to do today is, uh, use the power of the atonement, but not apologize for it and boldly stand up for what's right and not, not worry about, um, negative impact when we stand up for the truth because we're all going to get it.

Someone might not kill me, but they might cancel me on social media, right? Or they might stop being my friend, or they might start saying all sorts of unkind things about me. Um, but I need to not be bothered.

Tammy Uzelac Hall: Yeah. Absolutely. Well, then you can kind of just skip then to verse 17 where it talks about how the dragon was [01:14:00] wrath. I mean, so mad, wrath, boy, that word. Hit you.

Jan Martin: And he's been angry the whole time, like you just, just want to go, does Satan know any other emotion? Like, doesn't he get tired of being angry all the time?

Tammy Uzelac Hall: I know. Aren't you tired, Satan? So tired. And so right here, therefore the dragon was wroth with the woman and went to make war with the remnant of her seed. Which kept the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. I mean, there it is for me to keep the commandments of God and have a testimony of Jesus Christ that that's what it is.

And, and I love the quote by President Benson where he talks about dying for Jesus Christ, but more importantly, would you live for him? Yeah. And I, that is right here. Verse 17 is living for him, keeping the commandments and having a testimony of Christ. That's my question. Would I die for him? You bet. I think I would.

Sure. But would you live for him? That is hard.

Jan Martin: Yeah. And I, you know, I think [01:15:00] dying for him would be difficult. You know, again, if we think of someone like Abinadi, he was tortured. You know, he was, he had a terrible death, really painful, possibly lingering death, and that would be really rough to go through, and so we don't want to take away from that, um, pain.

But it is very difficult sometimes to stand up and live in this world and be a faithful Latter day Saint and just take it on the chin, because you're going to. And to keep doing it day after day after day and to be committed to your covenants and endure until the end of your life, whenever that is, um, and that can be a rough path too.

Tammy Uzelac Hall: And for, and many of you listening that you're bitter, it is so bitter, but it will be sweet.

Jan Martin: But the other thing too is, and this is the beauty of all of this, is that you don't do it by yourself. Yeah. So, you know, the Savior does ask you to do hard things, but because of the enabling, the strengthening, the healing [01:16:00] power, the forgiving power of the Atonement, we're surrounded by that buffer.

And we never have to walk this living for Christ path alone. And that's the important thing. Sometimes I think we just kind of think we're, you know, these lonely pilgrims out in the desert walking along and there's no one there, but our covenant to yoke us to the Savior. And so he's right there in the middle of it.

And if we can again, do what we've been trying to do all the way through this podcast is find and connect with Jesus. We need to just keep finding and connecting with him. And then you're not alone, whatever it is. You're not alone, and we need to not let Satan come in there with that and help us feel that we are, because we're not.

We're never alone when Jesus is involved.

Tammy Uzelac Hall: Wow. And I like how you said that. Yeah. Never alone. And it goes back to what you said earlier, that Jesus is working in our seal.

Jan Martin: He's working. He's working in our lives. He never abandons us. He cannot abandon his covenant children. Um, and he just never [01:17:00] stops. I'd like one of my favorite, um, verses is from Isaiah where it says he never sleeps.

He doesn't go on holiday. He's not on the other side of the universe. He's, he's constantly in the vineyard and he's working with us and he never abandons us. And that's one of Satan's number one tools is to make us feel like we're alone and we're just simply not, and we need to, to do better at connecting with what he's offering us.

Tammy Uzelac Hall: Okay, so let's do this then Jan. I'm so grateful you ended on that note because in the next segment we're going to see two things that contrast, but we're going to end ultimately with this idea that we are not alone and a chapter that is filled with so much hope. So we'll do that next.

Segment 6

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Tammy Uzelac Hall: Okay, so I brought a picture to help us introduce this concept behind chapters [01:18:00] 13 and 14. So Jan, will you describe to the listener what you're seeing with this picture? This picture will set it up.

Jan Martin: I am seeing a sea of black umbrellas. And I'm looking from the top down onto the top of the umbrellas. So I'm just seeing their lovely round shape with all their little, um, support little pieces in there.

And then, right in the middle, is this brilliantly gold. So it's the only one by itself and it just shines out. That's the first thing you notice when you look at the picture is the gold umbrella.

Tammy Uzelac Hall: Great description, Jan. Yeah, that's exactly what it is. And I like how you said that that gold is just brilliant, brilliantly standing out because, so this is a contrasting image.

This is dark and light. We have black and yellow. And I wanted us to see this picture because this is what chapters 13 and 14 are in the book of Revelation. They are contrasting [01:19:00] chapters. We have Revelation 13. If you just want to go there, just looking at the section heading, you can read, it says, John sees fierce looking beasts that represent degenerate earthly kingdoms controlled by Satan.

The devil works miracles and deceives men. That's pretty dark. Those are the dark umbrellas for me. And now we're going to contrast it with what chap is found in chapter 14. Unless Jan, is there anything in 13 you'd like us to mark?

Jan Martin: You know, um, I think as, again, as we're looking for, um, Jesus in there. I would just have you look at verse eight, verse eight and nine, the place to be, um, because you, you've got this, like, I love your picture because you've just got this dark setting with all of this worldliness and all of this blasphemy and all of this.

And then you have this little group whose names are, [01:20:00] are not written in the book of life, but you get this mention of the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. So again, as we're looking at Revelation, Jesus's atonement has been available the whole time. time. Oh, I like that. And any dispensation, even in premortality, we're able to access the atonement.

And so I just right in the middle of this dark is this bit about the atonement. And then you have verse nine, if any man have an ear, let him hear like, this is where you want to come. You want to come and see and come and find the atonement and come and find Jesus. No matter what you're surrounded with, he's available.

So that's what I would say about chapter 13.

Tammy Uzelac Hall: I would agree. Absolutely. And I'm so grateful how you said 8 and 9 is the light amidst all this darkness, the contrasting image in this chapter. Oh, so good. Okay, well then let's go to another contrasting image then. We have chapter 14. which will drastically contrast [01:21:00] chapter 13.

So chapter 14, here we go. I like verse 13, but we'll get there. So Jan, teach us a little bit about 14 and where do we find Christ in this chapter? I wrote next to chapter 14, the word hope. I felt like there was so much hope found in this chapter. Teach us about this. Okay.

Jan Martin: Well, again, if you just start with verse one.

You see the savior front and center. And again, as you're looking through revelation, you just always want to watch for that word lamb. I love that they call him that all the way through here because he is the, a sacrifice, you know, he's the sacrificial lamb and there he is standing on Mount Zion or Zion, if you want to use that.

And with him, the 144, 000, remember that's just a representation of people who were leading our missionary work and inviting all these. You know, big group of people to come and then you have this father's name written on their foreheads a sign of ownership Right that that [01:22:00] Christ has bought us and he's gonna turn us over to our rightful parent Which is God the father so Jesus is our brother, but his whole point is to save the family of of Heavenly Father.

Tammy Uzelac Hall: And, and let's say, let's just say this, that is a hard wording for many people, like having the Father's name written in their foreheads. You read that and you're kind of like, but we, we've always believed this when you put it in this terms. And you can cross reference this with Alma chapter five, verse 19, having his image engraven on your countenance.

That's his little, it's a little softer for listeners. And you're like, Oh, okay. Yeah. That that's exactly what it means there.

Jan Martin: Yes, but it's me because of the Savior being transformed from my natural fallen state to a godly individual who can now dwell with God. So Jesus has fulfilled his purpose. He has transformed all of these people.

And so you just got to start with that. And then, of course, you get all the drama. Like, that's one [01:23:00] of the cool things about the book of Revelation, is the visual imagery, the drama, the kind of touching and tasting and feeling and hearing, and, you know, things are going on there. So you just look at verse 2, I'm hearing a voice from heaven, the voice of many waters, which is Jesus voice.

He's always spoken about that in the scriptures. You'll find it in the D&C. You'll find it in Isaiah. You'll find it all around that he's just got this, you know, constant messages to send to people.

Tammy Uzelac Hall: Yeah. His voice, many waters. Yeah. Oh, that's good.

Jan Martin: Right. Joseph Smith uses that a lot in the D&C and the voice of great thunder. And I heard the voice of harpers playing with their harps, like, here's this party, like, come on, we've got all this stuff. And then we're going to sing this new. song. And there's a lot of imagery and singing a lot of imagery and praising God and having that just come out of you.

Um, the other night I just did a fireside for a ward and [01:24:00] they had a musical number. And I was so thankful that they had that because it just brings in the spirit. Like there's nothing more powerful than this music. And so you just bring in this music. You're setting the stage for this glorious, joyful thing.

And then you start describing the people, uh, verse four of chapter 14, you'll see, describing the people who are there. Redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits of God to the lamb, their mouth is found no guile, their noth, they don't have any fault. Why is that? Because of Jesus. We've been forgiven of all of those mistakes, and we are able to stand clean before God because of the Savior's atonement, and that's the good news, you know, the gospel.

And then you look at verse 7, fear God. And give glory to him for the hour of his judgment has come and worship him that made heaven and earth and the [01:25:00] sea because all of this is just worked out. Now one thing I do like to do with my students is help them with the word fear in the scriptures. There's two different meanings of scriptural fear.

One is the terribly frightening fear that we typically talk about. And you'll see that used in the scriptures plenty. But the other type of fear, and this is what's being used here, is this reverent awe of God. So when we read verses like work out your fear and trembling or work out your salvation with fear and trembling before God, God doesn't want you quaking in your boots.

He doesn't want you afraid of him. It's work out your salvation with awe, respect, and reverence. And trembling is just that feeling you sometimes get when you're just full of the spirit, like, you know, it's not quaking in my boots and being scared. I'm working it out with that spiritual respect for God.

And so that's what, what we're being asked to do here. Be, be in reverence and be in awe of God and [01:26:00] give glory to him because his judgment is just and it's here and it's gonna. It's going to be applied to people, so lots of great stuff in chapter 14 at the

Tammy Uzelac Hall: beginning of it. Well, I am loving everything that you just taught us about those first couple of verses.

I was struck when we got to verses 12 and 13. I thought this was really interesting because it says, here is the patience of the saints. Here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus and that word patience just always Hits me in the heart It reminds me of the story in Mosiah chapter 24 verse 15 where Alma the elder and his people who are persecuted and they cried Mildly unto God, but then it says because of their patience I always think God answered their prayer the next day, but that word patience recently has made me think, how long is long enough when it comes to me with my own patience?

Because sometimes I'm just so impatient, but when I look back on my life and I think, [01:27:00] boy, I was patient, or I look at you, boy, you were patient for 23 years.

Jan Martin: I tried to be now. Obviously I had my moments where I wasn't very patient,

but the cool thing is ultimately when I was faced with a choice, whether I was going to give up.

And a lot of people do. A lot of single people just give up looking for a temple marriage and looking for somebody. But whenever I was faced with that frustration of, this just isn't working out for me and I don't know what God has in store for me and I don't understand, but ultimately I would come down to this choice of, are you really going to give up on God?

Really? Are you really not going to give him a chance? And then I would humble myself and say, No, I'm not going to give up on you. You've promised me. That this will all make sense. I will have a husband one day, whether it's immortality or millennium. Doesn't matter. I'll get there in the end. But this, this question of am I going to be patient and wait for him?

To work it out. Yes. [01:28:00] That is a profound question and it has a lot to say about our discipleship 'cause some people just are not willing to wait. So

Tammy Uzelac Hall: I am just putting that down. Patience equals discipleship. Yeah. It does have a lot to say about our discipleship. Are you going to just give up? I mean, again, here is the patience of the saints, not here is the patience of people.

Like, he's defining what it means to be a saint, to be patient. And so many of us in the thick of that, like being patient with God, being patient with leaders, being patient with his mouthpiece and each other. Yeah.

Jan Martin: Like, you know, revelation comes in the Lord's time. It doesn't come in our time. Answers to prayers come in the Lord's time, not in our time.

So we're constantly dealing with. That and then as you said with other people who are imperfect people who maybe don't understand everything [01:29:00] Who maybe don't act in the way that they should all the time But we really have to learn to be patient with all of this Yeah, I love that patience is such a quality brought out here and in the Saints I just had a student in my office just the other day being very frustrated With God, because he's prayed and prayed and prayed it.

And, you know, you have to keep this in perspective. These kids are 19, 20, 21, and they think that their life has been long. Right? And you're like, no, you're only starting. You're just, you know, you're little, but he was so frustrated that he'd been praying about this one thing and I don't even know what it was, but something he'd been praying about that just hadn't gone the way that he wanted and he was really mad.

And I just sat there and I went, this is exactly this issue. I said, are you willing to give God the time to sort this out in his way? Because he will, [01:30:00] but you don't get to dictate the timing of things and you don't get to dictate how he's going to answer you, but I promise he will, but discipleship is really about working in the waiting period, you know, because blessings don't always come immediately.

Sometimes they do, but in my experience, most of my blessings have not come immediately and I've had to do some amount of waiting for the large majority of them. And so you just need to learn. Let's do it.

Tammy Uzelac Hall: Wow. That was great advice, Jan, for that young student. You're absolutely right.

Jan Martin: You know, I think he liked the office building a lot better, but it's really great to give ourselves some perspective and, and stop demanding.

I think it's Neely, not, was it Neely Maxwell or, yeah, it's Neely Maxwell who said, when we submit to the Lord's will. We also submit to the Lord's timing. Yes. And sometimes the timing is the harder submission of the two. We're all happy for the Lord's will, but we just want it now.

Tammy Uzelac Hall: Oh, absolutely. I'm all [01:31:00] about the Lord's will for sure.

That patient's part. Yeah. Oh, it's killing me. Well, and then I'm okay. So then let's go back in. Cause I'm struck with verse 13. So, you know, beautifully we have this right here. And then John says, and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Right. We have an actual, like, the Lord telling John, I want you to dictate.

I want you to, I'm going to dictate to you what I want you for sure to write. If there's nothing else you write in this whole book of Revelation, write this. Yeah. Go ahead and read it for us.

Jan Martin: Okay. He says, we're in a Revelation 14, 13. Right. Blessed are the dead, which die in the Lord from henceforth. Yea, sayeth the spirit that they may rest from their labors and their works do follow them.

I mean. So, you know, we just need to make sure and, you know, in, in honor of President, uh, M. Russell Ballard, who passed away last month, he was a [01:32:00] really big one on saying we need to endure until we're safely dead. I love that statement. It just makes me think of him. But this is basically what's being said, blessed are the dead, which die in the Lord.

I kept faithful until my mortal death. And that's what we need to do. Once we've done that, then you go to the spirit world and you have a different experience. If you've managed to die in the Lord, you get to go be a missionary and you're doing different things. You're not being tested anymore in that sense.

And so we just have to endure, as Elder Ballard said, until we're safely dead. And then, okay.

Tammy Uzelac Hall: Yes.

Jan Martin: Such good news, but we can do it.

Tammy Uzelac Hall: Yeah. Yeah. And I like this rest from their labors and their works do follow them. I think what's so profound is that it doesn't say, and your children's works follow you or your husband's works follow you.

It's your works. Like this is about you and your relationship with Christ. [01:33:00] So. Take a breather. It's okay. It's all gonna work out. It will. Just endure until you're safely dead. I love that, Jan. Yeah,

Jan Martin: just keep connected to that, to those covenants you've made, to the best of your ability. Keep tapping into the atonement.

That's all this is about, is just picking yourself up and re engaging every time until you, as Elder Ballard said, are safely dead.

Tammy Uzelac Hall: Oh my gosh.

Jan Martin: Just a cute comment. He's such a cute man.

Tammy Uzelac Hall: That's a wonderful comment. Oh my gosh, I just want to end, like, I, I've never done this before, but I want to end this whole episode by just saying in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.

Jan Martin: Because it really is in his name that we have studied for the last hour. Hopefully we've found him everywhere as we've been looking through. And that's just my parting challenge to anyone who wants to be better with the book of Revelation. Um, especially, but any scripture is to just try to keep finding the Savior [01:34:00] in the text, in the story, in the symbolism, in the imagery, and keep looking for Him because the scriptures are the embodiment of, of Him.

And even Revelation is, is, you know, devastating as some of it looks to be. Once you get underneath the surface, you will find the Savior everywhere in here. And that changes the way we relate to this wonderful text.

Tammy Uzelac Hall: Thank you, Jan. Okay, so what we do at the end is I always ask my guests to just think, is there one thing that struck you as we were studying this or anything new you learned as you were preparing or while we were discussing?

And I'm going to go first because I loved it when you said Jesus is working in our seal. And, um, I've never just thought of that before. Of course he is. But I, I like when you said it, it was so profound, it hit my heart and it just gave me a new sense, more hope, like, Oh yeah, he is working in our seal. He hasn't abandoned us.

He is with us in this [01:35:00] darkness, which we read about in verse 13, those dark umbrellas. He is. The bright golden umbrella for us. So that's what I learned. And then, of course, how you ended, we need to endure until we are safely dead. So good.

Jan Martin: One thing that I learned while I was doing some study, and I think this would be a good thing to end on just because we didn't really look at the sixth seal when we were in Revelation chapter six.

Let's do it. Let's just jump back to Revelation chapter six. And I'll just share with you something I read. And this is just from Dr. Richard Draper, who wrote a really great, um, Book on the book of revelation and I just like to be taught by other scholars who? Know more than me and can educate me, but as we look at the Sixth seal over there, and it's described in this particular way And let me just read verse 12 and then then I can share what Richard Draper said about it.

He said, and I beheld, when he had opened the sixth seal and low, there was a great earthquake and the sun [01:36:00] became black, a sackcloth of hair and the moon became his blood. And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth even as a fig tree cast with her untimely figs when she's shaken with a mighty wind. Now again, this can be terrifying.

And it's typically interpreted as a sick seal is just going to open with this, you know, this terrible cataclysmic destruction and things that are, that are scary. And so as I was looking at Richard Draper's discussion on this, he just taught me something really powerful and he said, in ancient Jewish thought.

Cosmic order depended upon man's obedience to God. And when man becomes so wicked that he sets up his own system against God, the universe will disintegrate. So, to me, this is not meant to be taken literally. The sixth seal doesn't necessarily open with this massive earthquake and things. I think What John is doing is using Jewish symbolism, and I agree with Richard Draper, to help us see that the sixth seal is a time where [01:37:00] humans will set up a system in opposition to God, and that that is what's making us have a need to bring the second coming in because the earth is no longer serving its purpose.

Because the man, human system is not God's system and it's not helping us with the family and it's not helping us with doing things righteously, it's, it's a corrupt system. And so I really appreciated that so that I didn't need to be terrified of the sixth seal. What I need to do is approach it realizing what's going on.

That the system humankind is trying to develop is in opposition to God, and it's making the plan of salvation not function in the way that it needs to. And that I can deal with because I can face that bravely and with the gospel and with the truth, and, and that's really what we are. And I can find the Savior in that by looking for the plan of salvation that's in opposition.

to the one the world is trying to set up. [01:38:00] And so, that was really instructive to me. I'm really appreciative of, uh, dr. Draper sharing that, and I just offer that as a way to approach the sixth seal and seeing what you're seeing, which is the destruction of the family and the plan of salvation and we're living in that time, but we're not abandoned.

The Savior is still working in our seal. He's helping us with this. Oh, my gosh.

Tammy Uzelac Hall: I completely agree with Draper and with you. That was so great. Yes. Oh, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. This was so great. Jan, you're awesome. Wow. Well, that was such an incredible discussion. And I am confident that those of you listening learned as much as I did.

And I want to know what you learned. So if you haven't already joined our discussion group on Facebook or Instagram, go do it. It is such a great place to share what you've learned and Ask questions as [01:39:00] you're studying. And I try to answer anything I can during the week. And then at the end of each week, we post a question from this episode.

So comment on the post that relates to this lesson and share your answers and thoughts. You can get to both our Facebook and Instagram by going to the show notes for this episode at ldsliving. com slash Sunday on Monday and go there. Anyway, it's where we're going to have a link to all of our references and a transcript of this entire discussion.

So go check it out. The Sunday on Monday study group is a Deseret Bookshelf Plus original brought to you by LDS Living. It's written and hosted by me, Tammy Usilak Hall, and today our incredible study group participant was Professor Jan Martin. And you can find more information about my friend at ldsliving.

com slash Sunday on Monday. Our podcast is produced and edited by Cole Wissinger, and our executive producer is Erin Hallstrom. Thanks for being here, and we will see you next week. And please remember, as you all know, that you are God's favorite.

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