Tammy 0:01
We just had an amazing General Conference. Each talk was thoughtfully prepared for our benefit. And you know what? It reminded me of the situation in Thessalonica. The Thessalonians states were known as examples of believers, and the news of their faith spread to cities abroad. But Paul knew that faithfulness in the past is not sufficient for spiritual survival in the future. And so he was wary of the influence of false teachers among the saints. In today's discussion of First and Second Thessalonians, we get to read Paul's prepared and specific messages for the Thessalonians saints and us, and as Paul said, "to continue to perfect that which is lacking in our faith, and to increase more and more in love. "
Welcome to the Sunday on Monday Study Group, a Deseret Bookshelf Plus original brought to you by LDS Living, where we take the Come, Follow Me lesson for the week and we really Dig Into the scriptures together. I'm your host, Tammy Uzelac Hall. Now if you're new to our study group, we just wanna make sure you know how to use this podcast, so follow the link in our description. It's going to explain how you can best use this podcast to enhance your Come, Follow Me study just like my friend, Carissa Liddell from Highland, Utah and Rachel Kenworthy from Eagle Mountain. Hi, ladies, and thank you for coming up and saying hello to me.
Now another awesome thing about our study group is each week we're joined by two of my friends and it's always a little bit different and today's different, but they've been on before but never together. And I could not be more excited about this. We have Tamu Smith and Laurel Day. Hello, ladies.
Tamu 1:28
Hello
Laurel 1:28
Hello.
Tammy 1:30
Okay, how do you two know each other?
Tamu 1:32
Well, Laurel does not remember this, maybe she does. But we met in the Spirit World. And we promised each other that when we got here we will be sisters. And so she actually probably does remember it because she was better at making that happen than I was. And, and so now she's stuck with me forever.
Laurel 1:52
I had no idea we had our own "Saturday's Warrior" moment Tamu. So I ,after passing through the veil of forgetfulness, I found Tamu on line. She used to do a radio show called "Sisters in Zion." And she was, were you Sista Laurel?
Tamu 2:15
Sista Laurel. No, I was Sister Beehive, cuz I'm from the Beehive State.
Laurel 2:20
And anyway, I reached out to her. I just cold-called her. And I said, Hey, could we go to dinner? And could I meet you? And it's more bold than I've ever been with a boy. So we went to dinner at The Garden. Do you remember that?
Tamu 2:36
Yes. I do.
Laurel 2:37
At the Joseph Smith Memorial Building and I seriously felt like I had known her my entire existence. And apparently, unbeknownst to me, I had.
Tammy 2:45
Yeah
Laurel 2:45
And you and I have been friends for? I think that was 2010. I think it was 2010.
Tamu 2:51
It was a long
Tammy 2:52
That's a long time ago.
Laurel 2:54
Yeah, a long time.
Tammy 2:55
So I've known Laurel since we were 17 years old, and just my dearest bestest friend in the whole wide world. Anyway, I just love you both so much. Tamu, we met at Time Out for Women years ago when we got stranded together in Philadelphia, and I'll never forget it and I'll always be grateful for it. We did, it was so awesome. So I cannot wait for our discussion today; I have been really looking forward to what you two have to say about the book of First and Second Thessalonians.
So if you want to know more about my guests, you guys, I recommend you go read their bios and see their pictures. And you can find those in our shownotes which are at LDS living.com/sunday On Monday, so be sure to go check that out. All right everyone, grab your scriptures, your scripture journals and something to mark your scriptures with, and Let's Dig In to First and Second Thessalonians. Okay, I ask all my guests at the beginning of every study of a letter: Tell me what stood out to you in this specific letter to the Thessalonians What do you guys got?
Tamu 3:47
For me It was, what an amazing missionary Paul was, you know what I'm saying? Like, he not only like, he was not only out there doing the needing to correct some of the stuff that he did, but he also was checking up on people, you know. Sending, he was sending people to check up on people. And of course, it made me think about my own conversion story and wondering what, where the missionaries are and how they're doing? And if they're still in the faith, and praying? It definitely made me pray for them and their families.
Tammy 4:27
What did you find out? Are the missionaries who taught you still active or do you know them? Do you stay in contact with them?
Tamu 4:33
I don't know. I don't know. And I'm kind of scared to know, you know?
Laurel 4:37
I feel like you would know, Tamu. Like, they'd be like, Tamu Smith - she's mine.
Tammy 4:43
Yeah.
Tamu 4:44
Well, I don't know if they know I was alive. They weren't even there for me. They weren't there for me.
Laurel 4:50
That's true.
Tamu 4:51
And so I was just a person that was like, Okay, I'll do it. Oh, I mean, if that's all we got, that's all we got. I was a kid, you know.
Tammy 5:00
I'm sure that's what it was, we'll take it.
Tamu 5:03
It was Tamu Thomas. If you guys are listening - Tamu Thomas, 1283 North Pico, San Bernardino, California. Shout out to Elder Mozelle, Elder Lawson, and Elder Howard from Texas.
Tammy 5:18
My gosh, let's reunite this. Come on. If anyone listening knows any of those people's last names, reach out to us. Let's have a little reunion here with Tamu.
Tamu 5:25
Elder Lawson, Elder Howard; Elder Mozelle was from like across the pond.
Laurel 5:35
That's awesome.
Tammy 5:54
That is so great. Thank you, Tamu. I love that that stood out to you about these two letters. Perfect answer. What about you, Laurel?
Laurel 5:39
Just how much Paul so deeply loved. I think, he uses this phrase, this is in First Thessalonians 2:8. I mean, it sounds like Jane Austen, honesty. But it's, he says, "So being affectionately desirous of you, we were willing to have imparted unto you, not the gospel of God only, but also our own souls, because ye were dear unto us." I just, I read that and I thought, I actually had an emotional reaction to that verse. And I thought, he loves me. Like he is affectionately desirous of me understanding the gospel of Jesus Christ. And I think if missionaries memorized that verse, and went out teaching, feeling that at every interaction, I honestly think it would revolutionize the way we do missionary work. I just was so blown away by this sweet choice of words there.
Tamu 6:38
Amen. Amen. That, I had the same reaction to that. That's the thing that made me wonder, do they think about me? Like, I think about them, I'm grateful for them.
Tammy 6:51
Perfectly stated, oh, my gosh, I love that. I have that verse marked too. And I didn't know how to work it into our discussion today so I'm so thankful that you brought it up, because we had to point that out. So, excellent job, both of you. You're right. Paul does love these people so much. In fact, let's look at some verses that Paul uses to describe how he feels about these people or how he views them. We're going to be in First Thessalonians chapter 1. We're just going to look at verses 4-6. Verses 4-6 are so great because he does love them and look how he describes them. Laurel, can you read those verses for us.
Laurel 7:25
4-6, yes?
Tammy 7:26
Yep.
Laurel 7:27
"Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God, For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake. And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost:"
Tammy 7:53
Thank you. Look at verse 4. I like this change. It's actually kind of a mistranslation, and we're going to fix it. Verse 4 says, "Knowing, brethren beloved". Now I want you to cross out "your", because actually in Greek it doesn't say "your". It says, 'Knowing, brethren beloved of God, elected of God,' is what that word says. And the word elected right there, highlight that, because in Greek it means 'chosen.' So then you read that verse, 'Knowing, brethren beloved of God, chosen of God.' Now, how does that frame the way he feels about the people?
Laurel 8:30
Well, if they were chosen, and he understands that about them, he understands it about himself. So he's also been chosen to be there. And I think when you know you've been called to be somewhere, you just approach the assignment differently, whether that's in a calling, or in a mission, whatever it is.
Tammy 8:50
Yeah. Growing up, who else was called chosen?
Laurel 8:54
"Chosen generation?" Is that what you're saying?
Tammy 8:56
Yes.
Laurel 8:57
For all of us that are like old and finding out we actually weren't?
Tammy 9:03
Yeah. Why do you think they called us the chosen generation?
Tamu 9:07
Why do I?
Tammy 9:08
Yeah.
Tamu 9:09
Because I feel chosen. I feel chosen. Like, I know that this is, for me, I definitely feel chosen because I feel like God led me here. I definitely feel chosen because I know where my beginnings were, I know where I started. And when I looked - I was just there, I just drove through my old neighborhood. And a lot of my friends didn't make it. They didn't make it out. And the ones, some of the ones that didn't make it, it just, it wasn't great for them. And I look at my life and I feel so blessed in it. And I know that God chose me for something, to do something in His kingdom. And so I do feel chosen. Okay, nobody tell me I'm nuts, so
Tammy 10:07
Well that is a great definition of chosen. And it lines up with what Laurel said about being chosen.
Tamu 10:11
Absolutely.
Tammy 10:12
Yeah, I think all of us are. I really like this definition of 'election' or 'chosen'. It says this in the Bible Dictionary, I love it: "A theological term primarily denoting God's choice of the house of Israel to be a covenant people with privileges and responsibilities." And so every one of us, every single one of God's children are chosen. And I like how in that verse, they're beloved of God, chosen of God, knowing that He loves us and has chosen us to have certain privileges or responsibilities. But the goal right here in this definition is to return back to Him. So everyone's chosen. And knowing that that everyone's chosen and how chosen the Thessalonians are, Paul then has something very specific he starts this letter out with, and we're going to talk about that in the next segment.
Segment 2 10:20
.....
Tammy 11:07
All right, we're gonna go to First Thessalonians, we are still in chapter 1. And here's what we need to know going into this story. First Thessalonians is actually believed to be the very first epistle written by Paul, his very first letter is this one right here. Cuz remember we've learned that the letters are in order from biggest letter to smallest. But if you go chronologically, and story-wise, this will be his first letter that he writes.
Laurel 11:29
Can I just jump in and say that actually makes me feel better, because part of what I was thinking is, how is he still being so loving and patient after all of these missions? And finding out it was the first one I'm like, Oh, that's how. He's not tired yet. Because when I was on my mission, I want to think that like at the beginning of my mission I was like, let's do this! And then by the end you're like, I'm so tired. I just want a nap. So anyway, I love that, I love having that additional context that this is his first. And that's not taking away from any of the other letters, but it is interesting, because there are some other places where sometimes he gets a little firm, and is a little more direct. And so I think that's interesting context, that's all.
Tammy 12:13
Well I think you're, I love that you pointed that out, because you even said that verse you pointed out, said sounded like Jane Austen. It's so beautifully written. I mean, he's just so eloquent in his speech. Many parts of First and Second Thessalonians are like that. For instance, just quickly turn, First Thessalonians 4:9, we have to point this out. He's talking to the people. He says, "But as touching brotherly love, ye need not that I write unto you, for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another." Highlight "brotherly love." Because in the Greek translation, that word doesn't say brotherly love. Guess what it says: Philadelphia. That's where it comes from. So Philadelphia is known as what?
Laurel 12:51
The City of Brotherly Love. Yeah.
Tammy 12:54
The City of Brotherly Love. And this is where it comes from, that verse, that meaning, Philadelphia. So he's just writing this beautiful, this beautiful prose in this awesome letter to the Thessalonians, so. I love that we had that talk. Okay, so let's get back into this letter then. Paul's second missionary journey was to Thessalonica. And ultimately, Paul and his companions were driven out of Thessalonica by the Jews who rejected their message. So somewhere on this page where it says, "First Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Thessalonians," write Acts 17. That's the part of Acts that corresponds with this specific letter, you want to know that.
And so as you read Acts 17, it shows that the gospel did become established, but Paul became aware of constant persecution directed at the members. So he sent Timothy and Silas back to see how the saints were doing and to check on their overall condition. And then he begins to write a letter to them. And here's what I want us to look at. So let's go to First Thessalonians chapter 1. And Tamu, can you please read verses 2 and 3, how he begins his letter.
Tamu 13:52
Yes, verse 2. "We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers; Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our father;"
Tammy 14:12
Thank you. Verse 2, "making mention of you view in our prayers." This is what struck me because I was getting very strong Conference vibes from that verse. I was thinking about all of the times when we hear from the pulpit that we have been prayed for. So I went over the last 2 1/2 years of General Conference addresses when the Prophet has spoken, and here's what I found. Here's every time he has said he has prayed for us, and I want us to read his specific wording when he says that he has prayed for us. And I'd like to know how they strike you. Here we go. We'll start with Laurel and then Tamu and then myself and we'll each take a turn reading how the Prophet addressed us when it came to praying for us.
Laurel 14:51
"During these past six months, you have been constantly on my mind and in my prayers."
Tamu 14:56
"You are constantly on my mind. I marvel at the way you spring into action whenever you see others in need. I stand amazed at the faith and testimony you demonstrate again and again. I weep over your hearaches, disappointments, and worries. I love you. I assure you that our Heavenly Father and His beloved Son, Jesus Christ love you. They are intimately aware of your circumstances, your goodness, your needs, and your prayers for help. Again and again I pray for you to feel Their love for you."
Tammy 15:30
"I pray for you every day."
Laurel 15:33
"You have been on my mind almost constantly during the past six months; I have prayed about you and for you."
Tamu 15:42
"I pray constantly that the Lord will comfort you."
Tammy 15:45
"I grieve with each of you who have lost a loved one during this time, and I pray for all who are currently suffering."
And that was at the pandemic. So I want to know this from you guys: How does it make you feel knowing that the Prophet is praying for you? And how can we lean into those prayers?
Laurel 16:04
Reading it like that is really quite powerful, because I'm remembering the way I feel when I hear him say that. But I can't honestly say I think about that, and that I benefit from knowing that. Just last Sunday - I'm the Primary chorister in my ward - and the Stake President came in to visit the children. And they were, you know, as children are, kind of, not that they were being irreverent, but there was certainly a stir of sound. And then he said, "I pray for you." And truly, you could have heard a pin, it was the most fascinating thing I've seen in Primary.
And when I got up afterwards, I called it out to the children and I asked why it got so quiet when President Wirthlin said, "I pray for you." And this cute little 4-year old said, "Because the Holy Ghost is here." And just as we were reading these, I felt that same thing. There's something about knowing that those who've been called to have responsibility and shepherding over you are praying for you, that I don't think we think about enough or take advantage of. Like, I need to remind myself every day. Sweet President Nelson, 99-year old President Nelson is so concerned about us that he is, we are constantly on his mind. And he is praying and weeping over our heartaches, our disappointments. Like that is, that is powerful. That is powerful.
Tammy 17:43
Yeah
Tamu 17:44
Amen. Yes. For me, it, when he says it at conference, it just feels like, almost like a platitude. But just reading it. I mean, if I'm being honest, and so it, it just kind of feels like, Oh, yeah, he prays for us. But reading it like that I felt it, I feel that right now.
Tammy 18:08
Yeah, I did, too when you were reading those prayers. Like I had been reading them and preparing, but it wasn't till I heard it audibly come from your mouths, that the Spirit witnessed to me. Because I agree with you Tamu. Sometimes you hear it and you're like, Well, you have to say that. As a leader you're supposed to love us, isn't that your job? I mean that's kind of, you want us to feel love so we come to you. But when a Prophet of God says, I love you, I pray for you. And it makes me go back to what you said Laurel earlier about Paul's words, he just loves the people so much. And I feel that way about our Prophet, he just loves us so much.
And so when Paul says, "making mention of you in our prayers," the first letter he writes, he wants everyone to know, "I pray for you." And so from here on out, every time a prophet of the Lord gets up and says, "I pray for you," I hope my ears perk up. And that I have the faith to lean into that and go, Okay. I like how you said that Laurel. Like, he's praying for me? I have to remember that, that there are higher powers mentioning me - probably not by name - but God knows me. I'm chosen, right? I'm counted in that group of people that he prays for, and is concerned about. And so yeah, I think it's, I love how this beautifully starts out. Paul loves us, and so does our Prophet. So
Tamu 19:27
Can I just
Tammy 19:28
Yeah
Tamu 19:29
add to what you said when you said "probably not by name." I think that it is, the faith part is on us to have the faith of the woman with the issue of blood. That if we stand in need of prayer and we know that our Prophet is praying, that we have our faith meets his faith and we, you know, reach out spiritually and 'touch the hem' so that we can be blessed and to claim those blessings for ourselves. So he may not be mentioning you by name, but you know that he's praying. And if he's praying in my neighborhood, I'm going to where he's praying at, you know, so that his prayer can benefit me. I'm reaching out spiritually for my faith to meet his faith, so that I can be blessed by his prayer,
Tammy 20:16
Oh I like how you just said, "so that my faith can be met with his faith."
Laurel 20:20
I love that.
Tammy 20:20
I gotta write that.
Thank you, both of you. That was incredible.
Tamu 20:24
Y'all, we just, quickly, verse 5: "For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but in power, in the Holy Ghost." And so I love that, that its not only, like it didn't just come in word, but it also came in the power of the Holy Ghost. And it's kind of like what we were talking about with the prayer, you know. We know he's praying, but the reading his words, I felt so, when Laurel said what she said, that he's praying for me, the Holy Ghost bore witness to the words that she spoke.
Tammy 21:04
Hey, thank you, Tamu, for pointing out again the power of the Holy Ghost. I mean, it was felt by each of us. And when we read these words, from a prayer from our Prophet. I just, I hope everybody listening is having the same experience that we are. Let's continue then in this chapter with just a quick promise that comes by way of a prophet praying for us. And these verses are awesome. In First Thessalonians chapter 1, after he got done saying that he's praying for us, that we're beloved and chosen, and that we became followers, even in a lot of affliction, verse 6 we read that. He then says, verse 9 and 10, highlight these. And I'll read that.
"For they themselves, shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."
He's talking about right here to wait for His Son from Heaven. That is what the Thessalonians are doing. They are so consumed with the fact that Jesus Christ is coming. I will never forget a moment as a Seminary teacher, when one of the principals - we have a Seminary Principal - and he got up to conduct a meeting. It was the last period of the day, and Laurel it reminds me of your Primary kids, lot of chattering. And it was also the whole group of football boys, they all took Seminary last period because they could get out of it easier than math when they had to leave to go play a game. (laughter) So we had rows and rows of football players, mostly all boys in this last period of the day. And they were loud, and just, they just wanted to go home.
And I remember the Principal got up and he started to bear his testimony. And it kind of settled down a little bit. But just like your Stake President moment, he looked at the boys and he said, "Jesus Christ is coming. He is coming." And that hit my heart. I had never once considered that. Like, I've learned my whole life, the Second Coming. But I thought like, yeah, in 100,000 years. I'm not going to be around. But something in my heart struck me that like, oh, yeah, He IS coming. And the Thessalonians believed it with all of their hearts. And they are waiting for the second coming of Jesus Christ. And so they have a lot of questions about the Second Coming. And that's what Paul's going to address in these two letters, the second coming of Jesus Christ. And so in the next segment, we are going to dive into what he has to teach about the Second Coming.
Segment 3 23:27
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Tammy 23:37
Okay, I just have to know this from you two. And I just am dying, because do you guys ever find yourselves having more conversations about the Second Coming than usual? Like in the last three or four years? Do people bring it up more often?
Laurel 23:51
I feel like I have people in my life that are always, that have, I feel like it's always been a thing. Like I don't, so I don't feel it any more now than I have. I just, I think it's, I think it's always, you've always had a group of people that think it's far, far away. And you've always had a group of people that think it's tomorrow. And I've been in both camps at different times in my life.
Tammy 24:13
I feel like with COVID that's all anybody talked about.
Laurel 24:16
Yeah.
Tammy 24:16
And they'd find scriptures to backup that this is the big apocalyptic, you know, and I'm like, Yeah, but that happened in the 1920s too. Maybe they thought Christ was coming then. Like,
Laurel 24:24
Well, heck, the Thessalonias thought it was happening. I feel like the restoration Latter-day Saints thought it was happening in the 1800s. I mean, that, there's always been a group of people that thought it's like eminent and another group of people that are like it's far away. You know?
Tammy 24:38
I love that you've been in both camps.
Laurel 24:40
I am in both camps on any given day.
Tamu 24:44
I love that, it's not that I love. I think that for the first time ever in my life, because again, like Laurel said, I've been in both camps with, and it seems like as Americans whenever something is going crazy, we're like, Okay, come on, Jesus. We're just down here waitin', and our shields are waitin'. And so, but I think that during COVID is the first time that as a world we were like, This is it. Let's get my affairs in order. I'm going to see the Catholic priest, and the Mormon Bishop, and, or just
Tammy 25:20
to cover your bases
Tamu 25:21
the Bishop of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and talking to my Pentecostal pastor cousin. I just want to be safe in all the bases. Like I just want to make sure everything is covered. And, but it was a universal thing throughout the world.
Tammy 25:38
I think that's a fair statement. It was very universal. I always laugh because people, recently people have said to me, Well, it can't get worse so Jesus has to be coming. And I'm like, Oh, I'm pretty sure every generation has said it can't get worse.
Laurel 25:53
Can I say tho, like, what I am, what the way I'm approaching this now is that, like, it's called the great and the terrible for a reason. And I'm trying really hard. Like, it's, things are really ugly and horrible if you, I mean, there's no question. And there are fires and pestilence. And I mean all the things that we've always been told are going to happen, they're here. But I like, I do try really hard to remind myself, and it's gonna get awesome. Like, and President Nelson said that in the last, in April conference. Like I, we need to remember that too, that as bad as it's getting and going to get, it's as good as it's going to get. Like it, there are great things still to come too. And I have to focus on that so that I don't just go into the fetal position of like the ugly and the hard, because there's plenty of that, you know.
Tammy 26:50
Oh, absolutely.
Tamu 26:52
Amen.
Tammy 26:52
Such a great point. I'm grateful you brought that up. It is great and terrible for a reason. And I look to the great, it's going to be awesome. I mean Laurel, we've talked about this, even when we were younger. As teenagers we used to laugh because when Second Coming lessons would come up we'd be like, I don't want to die when all this happens, I want to live. And now we're older we're like, I don't want to live. Like, let me end it and then come up in the rapture, which we're going to talk about later today. Can't wait for that conversation, Tamu. But here's what I want us to think about. There are some very specific questions that the Thessalonians probably had based on some of the answers, or some of the replies that Paul gives in First and Second Thessalonians.
So here are probably 6 questions that people may have asked. #1: When will our loved ones who have died be resurrected? 2: Will the righteous and the wicked be treated the same? 3: When will the Second Coming of Jesus happen? 4: Who will die and who will live? 5: Is there anything we should have ready? And 6: How can we prepare for the Second Coming? So we are going to answer those questions in First Thessalonians chapter 4. So let's do this. We're going to bracket off First Thessalonians chapter 4, starting with verse 13. And bracket all the way off until you get to chapter 5:11. All of those verses are answers to those questions that we just stated. And we're gonna go through them and read what Paul had to teach to the Thessalonians and us about the Second Coming.
So here's our first one: When will our loved ones who have died be resurrected? Let's go to First Thessalonians chapter 4, and mark verses 13-16. Here we go. 13-16, and Laurel, can you just read for us verse 13, please..
Laurel 28:33
"But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."
Tammy 28:42
Now, the word 'asleep' or 'sleep' in these four verses, means 'dead.' That's what he's talking about.
Laurel 28:46
It's such a better word, though, isn't it?
Tamu 28:48
It is
Tammy 28:48
I really really like that.
Laurel 28:50
Asleep is a much more, I love that word.
Tammy 28:53
Yeah, you also have the word 'graduated.' You want us to say that you've graduated when you die?
Laurel 28:56
Yes.
Tammy 28:57
Yeah. I'll put that too, dead or graduated. Okay. Here's what you want to know going into these verses. So the Thessalonians, and I love this about them, they were pretty terrified about what would happen to their loved ones who were dead. Because in their minds they're like, 'Well, when Jesus comes everybody who's living automatically we're gonna go up to the highest degree. We're gonna get to have glory and live with God, but our dead ancestors who get resurrected after us, there won't be any room.' Like they really were concerned about that. And so Paul's saying, No, no, no. Don't worry about those who are asleep. Sorrow not, even if it seems like they don't have any hope.
4:14 "For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him." Verse 15: "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord," Now there's a footnote right here. I want you to circle footnote (a) next to the word 'that', And let's go down below and see the Joseph Smith translation of this because it says, "that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep." But I love this retranslation. The Joseph Smith translation says, "That they who are alive at the coming of the Lord, shall not prevent them who remain unto the coming of the Lord, who are asleep." So prevent them from returning to live with our Heavenly Father again.
So Paul is just calming their fears. It's okay. Everybody gets to make it. That's the goal of all of this is for everybody to return, and there's ample opportunity for everybody. All right, so that's the answer to that question. When will our loved ones who have died be resurrected?
Here we go. Here's the next question. Will the righteous and the wicked be treated the same? Oh, this is good. So we're going to read verses 17 and 18. And I'm going to give you a cross reference. Tamu, read for us verses 17 and 18.
Tamu 30:43
"Then we which are alive and remain and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words,"
Tammy 31:00
Tamu, what is verse 17 describing?
Tamu 31:03
Are we getting caught up here?
Tammy 31:04
We we, are getting caught.
Tamu 31:05
Are we getting caught up in the rapture?
Tammy 31:08
We are getting caught up in the rapture.
Tamu 31:10
As my uncle would say, "Now we 'bout to get caught up!"
Tammy 31:16
Tamu, what is the rapture?
Tamu 31:19
The rapture is when we just all are enveloped. Like we're all, just wrath. I don't even know how to describe it. Because I feel it. I feel what's in my mind what it is going to be like. It's just we just all get very caught up and carried in, you know,
Tammy 31:39
I remember on my mission, I used to see cars. There was one car that had a bumper sticker that said, WARNING! in big letters. "In case of rapture, this car will be unmanned. " (laughter) Just loved that. But I made fun of it cuz I'm like, the rapture. phht. We don't even believe in that. That's Kookie, Kookie. Actually, it's not. Let's cross reference verse 17. Go ahead and put in your scriptures Doctrine and Covenants section 88.
Tamu 32:06
I was gonna say, last year we read about the rapture!
Tammy 32:09
You bet we did, verses 95-98 has the same wording! And so the righteous, and that's who gets caught up with Jesus. So this question, will the righteous and the wicked be treated the same? No, not at the Second Coming. Now when all is said and done, do they get to repent? Yes, yada, yada, yada. But at the moment, rapture, we do believe that the righteous will be caught up in a cloud in heaven with Jesus. The Earth is being cleansed and the wicked are being burned. How wicked? Real wicked, let's be clear.
And in verse 17, when it talks about "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up." That "we" right there, let's be very clear. It's anyone and everyone who is a believer of Jesus Christ. And that's what I love about this. And that everyone and anyone can be consumed up into this cloud with their Savior. That, to me is beautiful. All of our brothers and sisters, everyone. So we have this right here in "words", next to 17, write "rapture" right next to it. So that is what's going to happen. And I just think that's going to be glorious. We always say, you know, you're going to want to have a seat at the Salt Lake cemetery where all the prophets and apostles have been buried, because that'll be fun, and Laurel's Dad.
Tamu 33:20
Or you just want to have a seat at the pleasing bar.
Tammy 33:22
Well, there's that too. Why ya gotta bring that in, you be so smart?
Tamu 33:26
Well, I mean, that's what, isn't that what.....?I was in Seminary with a kid that was like, he thought that that was, it was so cool when we read Moroni. And he's talking about getting caught up in the rapture, and how his body and his soul would be reunited in the air. And we were all excited about it because my Seminary teacher, one of them was a former Pentacost, or a Baptist preacher. And so the way he would teach Seminary was just amazing. But we thought like he was teaching Seminary in this amazing way. But this kid he got stuck on the fact that we would have a pleasing bar with
Tammy 34:10
And it will be pleasing. Like Laurel said, it'll be great. It'll be pleasing. I like that. All right, well, when's it gonna happen? When will the second coming of Christ be? Let's go to First Thessalonians 5:2, Here's what Paul taught about that. Laurel, where you read verse 2 for us.
Laurel 34:26
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."
Tammy 34:32
Okay, how do you interpret this verse?
Laurel 34:34
So I actually have very strong feelings about this. Because I think in order for the Lord to come as a thief in the night, you're, you're not expecting the thief to come. You think you've done all the things to protect, or your house isn't appealing enough or whatever. And when the thief comes, you're surprised. You're like, wait a minute. So this is my interpretation. And I think this is why I don't get freaked out anymore about the Second Coming, or thinking, Oh my gosh, this is it. Like this is as bad as it gets. Because in order for the Lord to come as a thief in the night, we, I think we have to kind of get to the point where we think, Oh, it was really bad. He didn't come, we're good for a while again. Do you know what I mean?
So I'm expecting this period of like, not calm, but we had the tumult and we thought He was coming. He didn't come and now we've got this space of like, Oh, it's not, it's not as bad as it was. And then He comes, because we weren't, we thought we knew. And the bottom line is, no one knows. If somebody's like doing the math and telling you that they have figured it out, they haven't because no man knows the hour. No man knows the day. He's coming as a thief in the night. That's how I've interpreted that.
Tammy 35:51
Oh, I think you're spot on. So we just got a new alarm system and I'm still trying to get used to even setting it and wondering, do we really need it?
Laurel 36:00
Right. And that's why Paul says, So oh, by the way, don't sleep. Let us watch and be sober because you're going to lull yourself into thinking the time of Him coming has passed. And you can't do that. You, we have to always be being prepared. And not being prepared because it's going to be scary, but being prepared because it's going to be amazing.
Tammy 36:21
Yes.
Laurel 36:21
And we want to be there and be ready, you know?
Tammy 36:24
Oh, I think that's awesome. Okay, well you read a verse, verse 6. So we're going to do this, we're going to read verses 3-6 because the question is, Okay, well, then, who will be ready and who will have their alarm systems on? So here we go. We're going to read verses 3-6. Laurel, just read those for us because they're awesome. And we're going to mark some words here.
Laurel 36:42
"For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness,, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day; we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober."
Tammy 37:09
Okay, let's define some of these words to give this even more power. Here we go, verse 3. "For when they". Circle the word "they". That means the world. When they, or the world says, Peace and safety, cross reference peace and safety with Second Nephi 28:21. And we've studied this before, but Second Nephi chapter 28 are all of the Satan's tactics and what he will use in the last days. And verse 21 says Satan will get us to say all as well in Zion. Peace and safety, we're fine. We haven't needed the alarm system, why do we need it now? "Sudden destruction come upon them," and now this right here: "as travail upon a woman with child and they shall not escape." Tell me why he uses this imagery. Why is it so shocking?
Tamu 37:55
For me? It's that moment where you've had these false pains, these false labor pains, and now you're, you know, you think you're fine. You go back, you're on the way home from the doctor - he's told you it's not time. And your water breaks. Now you're panicked.
Tammy 38:13
Perfect description. Yes. And I love that Paul uses this imagery for us like, because when that happens, you can't stop it. Like, this is it, here we go. And so he's like, yeah, as a woman, a travailing. woman with child. No where to escape, you can't stop it. Verse 4: "But ye,brethren, are not in darkneHss," ighlight the word darkness. In this context it means evil or sin.'"Brethren ye are not in sin, or you're not in darkness or evil, that that day should overtake you as a thief.' I like that. Okay, but you've been using your alarm system. Verse 5: "Ye are all the children of light,"
And last week we discussed that the word light means Christ, you're children of Christ. 'and children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness, of sin or evil.' "Therefore let us not sleep," Now this sleep is different. It is a different contextual word. It means 'spiritual sleep' right here, not death. 'Therefore, let us not sleep spiritually as do others, but let us watch and be sober.' Now this word is so awesome, highlight the word sober. It means in - I got this definition from the 1828 Webster's Dictionary, my favorite -" sober means to be calm, and not under the influence of passions." So there we have it, 'let us watch and be sober.'
Now tell me some of your thoughts about this. And I have a picture I want to show you and I'd love for you to connect this picture to what we've just been describing. This past summer I was at the beach with my daughters and we decided to go to low tide which happened to be at 11:30 at night. And my sister-in-law was with us and she took these two pictures of me walking with my girls. Superduper dark and she she'd call it "Embraced by lLght." And when I read this verse of scripture I'm like it reminds me of that picture. Connect this to what we've read about. And it'll be in our show notes if everyone would like to go see. It's superduper dark and then it has the three of us in light. And all we had was one flashlight. That's it. We didn't have a ton of flashlights or anything, just one flashlight in front of us.
Laurel 40:21
It is a remarkable image of what it looks like to be kind of enveloped in light, protected by the light, like having a covering of light. I mean, all of those, all of those things come to my mind when I see the image that the darkness is still there. The darkness isn't gone. And in fact, the darkness is more than the light. And yet you still get this feeling of like, protection from the light.
Yeah
Tamu 40:53
Yeah. It looks, it is shaped like an eye, too, like you guys are walking into the eye.
Tammy 41:01
Oh, I never noticed that before, an eye. Yeah, like, and you can see. The interesting thing for us is we could see so clearly with just one flashlight, and it was as dark as it could be. And it was really, it was kind of inspiring. Afterwards, when I saw this picture, it just took my breath away, that it doesn't take a lot of light to dispel the darkness. That's what's interesting, because sometimes I think, and maybe you can tell me what your thoughts are with this. It often feels like we feel like we have to be perfect. And just the, without sin completely when Christ comes so that we can survive. I don't think that's what he's saying when he says, "Ye are children of the light, children of the day. We are not of night nor of darkness." I don't think anyone in my life is of darkness or of the night.
Laurel 41:53
Yeah, and he is very clear. "Ye are all the children of light."
Tamu 41:57
Correct
Laurel 41:57
He doesn't say some of you. He doesn't say, you know, he's very clear.
Tammy 42:03
Absolutely. You know, here's a quote, this is from M. Russell Ballard. And he talks about this idea of being children of light. Let's read this. Tamu, will you read that for us.
Tamu 42:14
M. Russell Ballard said, "Father loves all of His children, and He wants them all to have the blessings of the gospel in their lives. Spiritual light is not lost because God turns His back on His children. Rather spiritual darkness results when His children turn their collective backs on Him. It is a natural consequence of bad choices made by individuals, communities, countries, and entire civilizations."
Tammy 42:43
Why did you emphasize the word collective when you read that? COLLECTIVE backs on Him. Because I circled that word, that stood out to me.
Tamu 42:56
When I see the word collective, it means community for me. And I feel like in a sense, it was a word that stood out to me because I guess it's something that I see today. When you have one person in a community or a friend group and they begin to question, it becomes easier for other people who are not as solid. And even people who you thought were solid, to then start to question. And a community of believers is a community of believers. And a community of disbelievers, if there's one in the community, it becomes easier for that community become a community of disbelievers.
Tammy 43:51
I like how you said that, either way, community.
Tamu 43:55
Right.
Tammy 43:55
Yeah. Awesome. Thank you, Tamu. All right, we have one more question for this segment. And here it is: Is there anything we should have ready? And I'm going to add: Or is there anything specific we should wear? Hello, how was that? Bracket off verses 8 and 9. And here it is. "But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,"
Well, and two weeks ago we had such an incredible discussion on the armor of God. And here it's being brought up again. And I think it's just great because he intro...actually Paul introduces it for the first time right here. This is in his first letter. And he's saying like, put on this armor of God, and you need every part. And then we talked about how on Sundays when you can take your armor off and breathe for a minute, and brush it up and shine up your armor and then put it back on when you get back out into the world. And so he's telling us this is what you need to wear as you prepare for the second coming of Christ. Any thoughts you guys are having?
Tamu 44:59
I mean it, when I was reading it, and I really hardly ever go to the cross references unless it's, it feels different for me. And with this when I wanted to make sure that I understood the reference to breastplate. And it sent me to Ephesians 6.
Tammy 45:25
Yeah.
Tamu 45:26
And it just hit me. It struck me a little bit harder than usual because of everything that we're going through in society today. Because it talks about who we're wrestling against, and it's not against each like each other as far as flesh and blood. It really struck me because it, oftentimes we get into this wrestle about things that we actually cannot change with each other, when really it's a wrestle with this outside entity, if that makes sense at all. And so it definitely brings to mind or called into question, Who am I wrestling with in my life? Because it's not people. It's really, you know, people are following whatever they're following and doing the thing that they feel like is best. So what am I wrestling with? And also this chapter, there's so much in this chapter that calls us to rest, like just to kind of let God do it. You like, you know, just rest. Just give it to God.
Tammy 46:40
That's a great question you bring up Tamu. What are we wrestling with in the darkness? So yeah, I'm grateful you brought that up. So thank you for sharing that Tamu. Awesome discussion, you guys. Okay, so what about the last question? How can we prepare for the second coming of Jesus Christ, really prepare? Well, we're going to discuss that in the next segment.
Segment 4 46:59
.....
Tammy 47:09
All right, turn with me to First Thessalonians chapter 5. And I want you to bracket off verses 11-26. And I asked my guests to read over these verses. And this is where Paul gives us a list of things we need to do to prepare for the Second Coming. So I want to know what stood out to you guys in this long list of what we can do?
Tamu 47:27
Well, I like to party. I don't know if y'all know that about my personality. So 11 and 18 were the ones that.... 11, 16, 17 and 18. And 17, I just kind of was like, ehh, because it felt like I should be doing that if I'm be doin' this kind of parting. But 11, 16, 17, and 18.
Tammy 47:55
Read 'em.
Tamu 47:58
"Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another even as ye also do." So that means that we're going to be together, in my mind. "Rejoice evermore. Pray without ceasing." And "in every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you." So it's gonna be a worship party. I mean I know we don't really do that over here sometimes, but if I get to call the shots, that's what's happening. We're gonna be rejoicing; that's my movement, and worship, and in everything give thanks. Like it's gonna be a Holy Ghost good time over here.
Tammy 48:46
Okay, just a second. "A Holy Ghost good time?" Oh, my gosh, I'm writing that down. That is so awesome. That's the kind of party that I want an invitation to. Awesome, Tamu.
Laurel 48:58
I noticed for sure that "Rejoice evermore." But the the other one that kind of struck me is "Despise not prophesyings."
Tammy 49:05
Ooh, why?
Laurel 49:05
I think sometimes we hear hard things. And sometimes it's hard to hear those hard things. And that was just a good reminder to me that I need to be really mindful of prophetic counsel, and accept prophetic counsel. The very next verse in 21 says "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." And the footnote for 'prove' says "examine, put to the test." And I think it's a good balance to verse 20, right? Because we're not to just accept everything we hear, but we're to prove it for ourselves, put it to the test.
I think a lot of people don't know or aren't. I mean, Brigham Young used to say like, 'Don't believe what I'm saying. Find out for yourself that it's true.' I think that's an important part of being Latter-day Saints in particular, that we listen and heed prophetic council, that we receive revelation to find out for ourselves, and put it to the test and examine it. But we need to hold fast to that which is good. And I think sometimes it's hard to do that in the world that we live in. And that's part of preparing ourselves for this important time of the Savior returning.
Tammy 50:22
Laurel, can you tell us how you've done that personally?
Laurel 50:27
Yeah. I, my prayers are different. I am, I'm at a period of time in my life where I so don't want to be wrong about things. Not in a pride way, but I want to know that I am in line with the Lord. And so when I hear something that is hard to hear, I feel like I have a responsibility to not reject it outright. I have a responsibility to study and pray and go to the Lord. And there are a lot of things that aren't black and white and there's not an official answer for. I think the "For the Strength of the Youth" pamphlet is, the new one, is a really good example of here are the principles. And that doesn't mean that like there aren't rules anymore. It doesn't mean there aren't lines anymore. And I think we have a responsibility to find out what the Lord would have us do. And so for me, I am, my prayers are much more beseeching, I guess, is the right word.
Tammy 51:29
That is a good word.
Laurel 51:30
Pleading for insight, pleading to understand that which I don't understand, and pleading for the Lord to help me stay on His side. In a world of a lot of confusing messages, and frankly not even always agreement on things that we all used to agree on. Whether it's, I don't know, I just I think we have that responsibility. And I've, I've had to make it a matter of personal prayer to know that I am connected enough to the Spirit,that I can hear the voice of the Lord and stay in the right. I don't want to be on the wrong side of topics and issues that really matter and that my heart feels sometimes pulled on. But at the end of the day, I want to follow Jesus. And I want to know that I'm following His chosen servants who are giving revelation. And I want to know when that revelation comes, I want to feel it. I want to be, I want to have an assurity of it.
Tammy 52:34
Yeah. And I will just say, as your best friend who's known you so long, what Laurel just said is true. She has taken it to the Lord. And there have been times, and I know you and I know your heart. And there are some things you're praying about that you're still waiting for an answer on. And so I want people listening to know that sometimes you have to wait, and that's okay. That there is, that the wrestle, that it's worth the wrestle, I should say. And that's what I've seen in your life. It has been worth the wrestle to watch you and to watch your faith grow. And then also to be a North Star to me, and many of us who know you. There have been times when I've come to you and said, Okay, what do we do? And you paid the price, you know. And I think that's what friends do for each other. We go to each other and talk about hard things and things we've prayed about. So what she said really does work. So thank you for sharing that.
For me, verse 14, that stood out to me, because here I am imagining Paul saying, Okay, now listen, everybody. While you're waiting for the second coming, you know, here's some things I want you just to pay attention to, which are all the things we've just shared. What Laurel shared ,what Tamu shared. Like, do this while you wait. And I liked 14: "Now we exhort you, brethren" (and sisters), "warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men." And that for me, really, I love that because right here we have for "them that are unruly,." All right, so first, you've got that and you're imagining it is exactly what you imagine. And I like that. People who just are without rule who need help.
And then it says "comfort." I love the word comfort because it also can mean encourage, 'encourage the feebleminded.' But feebleminded means faint-hearted. And then we have "support the weak". And support means care for, care for the weak. But the weak are those who are doubting, that's what struck me. It doesn't mean physically weak, it means spiritually weak. Care for the spiritually weak. And then "be patient toward all men." And that stood out to me because there are times when people don't get it and I'm like, come on, what is your problem? (Meaning my kids.) I want my children to have my 50-year old foundation. And the problem is is they don't. My job - I've just given them the starter foundation, right, the starter pack. And I think all of us, we all get cracks in our foundation.
And I did a little research because I wanted to know: do all foundations crack? And from what I can find, yes. And then I also found some writing that said, But if there is a crack in the foundation, this article I read says, it's not something to worry about. It can be fixed. And that for me, that was like so comforting, thinking, Oh, everybody gets cracks in their foundation, and it can be fixed. And how does it get fixed? By those of us who are going to comfort and support, and God sends us in and we're going to just, you know, stir up some more cement. We're going to come in, take out the old foundation, help you build new one. I mean, my 50 years of life is just foundation upon foundation upon foundation.
And so I think my impatience comes when people don't have the, they're in the beginning stages of foundation. And when my kids make stupid choices, I'm like, What is your problem? You should know what I know. And they're like, No. And then they get the cracks, and I'm gonna help you dig it out. And we're gonna pour new cement and it's gonna be okay. So I think that's the image in my mind, pouring new cement. Those are comforting and supporting the weak or the spiritually weak. So, Paul is just saying, Do these things while you wait for Jesus to come. It's all gonna work out, it's gonna be fine. You all are children of light, hang on. But guess what? The Thessalonians - this letter was not enough for them. They had more questions. And so in the next segment, we're going to tell you what the next question was and how Paul answered that.
Segment 5 56:14
.......
Tammy 56:25
Okay, let's turn to Second Thessalonians, because here's the additional truth about the Second Coming, and is basically the main theme of Second Thessalonians. So, the Thessalonians had more questions and so this is sort of Paul's way of going, 'Listen, okay. I know you're excited, Jesus is coming.' But something major has to happen first. So let's turn to Second Thessalonians chapter 2. Bracket off verses 1-3, this is a scripture mastery scripture, we memorized it with our Seminary students. I'm going to read it and then I want you to tell me, you two, how you would describe this if a little child asked, What's this? Okay, so I'm going to read it. Here we go, verses 1-3.
"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him. That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"
Okay, now the footnote down below, Joseph Smith translation for 3 a) says "....for there shall come a falling away first." Now "that falling away", that term, we know as apostasy. So how would you describe the apostasy to a little kid in Primary? What does that mean? Because some of us are going to have to do that when we teach this lesson.
Tamu 57:50
Apostasy. I would say to the kids, this is going to ,this is setting the stage. This is Satan setting the stage for the drama of all ages. So get some popcorn, sit back, you know, cover yourself in the holy water and a consecrated oil, because drama, it's about to go down. It is about to, people about to start falling out, falling away. All kinds of manners and isms is about to break out. Just get behind the bush and try to stay sane. That's when I think about what is being said here is just like, set the drama.
Tammy 58:38
Yes. I think that's awesome.
Laurel 58:40
Like he doesn't mince words when he says, "that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition." I mean, he doesn't reveal, he doesn't mince words about what that is. Um, can I just share like, I think maybe because I noticed Paul's love for the people, that I read verse 3 a little differently for the first time of realizing Paul knew there would be a falling away. So he's telling these people about how to prepare for Jesus to come. But Oh, by the way, Jesus isn't going to come until there's an apostasy. And it just it struck me that he's doing this work, that if I were Paul, I would think was futile. Because if I'm planting all these seeds, and then there's an apostasy before Jesus comes, why am I, like why am I even doing this work? And how would I feel if I knew that? Like, what was the motivation?
And Elder Holland actually talks about this and I found this in the book "Our Daystar Rising." So it's kind of Elder Holland's reflections on different scriptures in the New Testament. He talks about what a responsibility it is for us, not just for the early saints of the restoration, which we often think about, but for Peter and Paul and those who followed and lived even though they knew there would be a falling away. And he says this, and I just, I have to read this. Thinking about Elder Holland and the life and the Ministry and the sacrifice he has made to the kingdom of God.
He says, "When my time comes, I want to stand worthily. Not only before the Father and the Son, which is our ultimate accounting, but I also want to stand worthily before the prophets, the pioneers, and early missionaries who paid this kind of price for their faith. I can envision them saying to me, Jeff, you were born in the greatest of all dispensations. And your call to serve came in the greatest of all times. Did you take advantage of it? Did you pursue the cause as faithfully as we did? Did you represent the Lord and us with devotion and commitment and loyalty?"
Elder Holland goes on to say, "I probably won't be asked to die the way some of them did. I am not likely to be crucified upside down or beheaded. But I will stand before these men and women, a whole series of people who went before us who did face those fates. I truly believe I will be called upon to answer not only for the significance of the work in our day, but also for the significance it had for their's. Brethren and sisters," he says, "in a very real sense, we are carrying the weight of every dispensation on our shoulders, because this is the last and the greatest of them all, into which all earlier truths will be gathered into one. It is in our day that the most comprehensive global missionary work for the living, and all the vicarious work for the dead, will be done. That is the moment into which you have been born."
And that completely changed the way I see those scriptures now. Because now we see Paul as someone who was laying groundwork that he knew he would not be able to reap. And yet he did it, and why did he do it? Because he had a vision of the bigger picture. And hearing Elder Holland's weight of responsibility in that, helps me feel a weight of responsibility to carry on the work that so many - not just the saints of the restoration in the 1800s - but before that, the prophets and the people that lived in the Book of Mormon times and in the New Testament and Old Testament. All of these people that have been followers and disciples doing their part to prepare the whole world for the Second Coming and Savior Jesus Christ.
And that feels exciting to me. That feels like, Oh, this isn't about me anymore being afraid of what's going to happen in the last days. This is about me now standing up and taking my rightful place in preparing the world for the second coming of our Savior. I was really impacted by Elder Holland's words and just felt like I had to share.
Tamu 1:02:51
I love it.
Tammy 1:02:54
Oh, I love it. Why do you love it, Tamu?
Tamu 1:02:57
I love it because I love Elder Holland first and foremost.
Laurel 1:03:02
Tamu loves Elder Holland.
Tamu 1:03:04
I love Elder Holland. But I also think that Elder Holland reminds me so much of my foundational church in the way that he speaks. And just the imagery of being asked, you know, did you do your parts? Did you uphold this? Did you, you know, how did you contribute? I think it's, for me I, as Laurel was speaking, I'm asking myself those same questions that Elder Holland is asking everybody. They gonna say to me, Tamu, so what did you do? And the truth is is that I do know that some of us, some of us ain't gonna make it. Like, we're not gonna be on, you know, we gonna get caught up. But not in the rapture. We're gonna get caught up in apostasy and in different ways, and falling in the falling away.
And I hope that I am not one of those people. And I hope that I have, and my testimony remain true to my Savior, to my Heavenly Parents, and to my Savior, Jesus Christ. And speaking truth in a way that brings souls to Christ as opposed to pushing people away. And sometimes that looks like, it looks like speaking hard truths to bring people back in so that they know that we can be honest in this place of worship, as opposed to scoring along to get along. And I think that that is what Elder Holland has represented to me in so many ways.
Tammy 1:04:55
Thank you, Tamu for sharing that. You know as both of you were speaking, my mind was just going so fast, because I went back to how we started, Laurel. Like this is his first letter that he wrote. It's his second missionary journey. And I can't even imagine what it must have been like for him when he found out, Oh, by the way, there's going to be an apostasy. Like I've never considered that, Laurel. I am so grateful you pointed that out.
Laurel 1:05:20
Well I was thinking about my own mission, right? And if I had known, if I had known that I was bringing souls to Christ,
Tammy 1:05:26
at the very beginning of your mission,
Laurel 1:05:28
at the very beginning of my mission, just to know that like sometime during our lives, there would be this great apostasy and we'd have to start all over again. Like, how would I approach the work? And the fact, like thinking about it that way and knowing Paul went mission after mission after mission knowing there would be, it blows my mind. And I think, would I have had that kind of fortitude? Frankly, do I have that kind of fortitude now? Am I that committed and that devoted now? And I think Elder Holland, I thank him for that reflection, because it really truly changed me when I read his words. And now I'm reading these words of Paul, I think I can be so much better than I am right now. I can be so much more faithful, I can be so much more committed. And I want to be.
Tammy 1:06:18
And for me to say, Thank you, Paul, and I'm going to do my best. Like, thank you to everybody that paved the way, knowing that it was futile. That to me, the per....you know me, Laurel. Like if there's a way to do something quicker and faster, I'm going to figure it out. And so I would have started from the beginning and gone, Well, this is the most ineffective thing we could possibly do. So, let's just wait till the apostasy happens and then we'll really dig in.
Laurel 1:06:41
start all over again.
Tammy 1:06:42
yeah, start all over. Like, what a waste, you know.
Tamu 1:06:45
There has to be an easier way.
Tammy 1:06:46
Yeah, I would have totally told everybody, Truly, eat, drink, and be happy. None of this matters. Like, it's just, yeah, like, Thank you, Paul, and I am going to just work harder. And then you go back to all the things he said to do while we wait for Christ to come. Are we doing that? Like I love that, Tamu. Are we rejoicing evermore? Are we praying without ceasing? Are we helping those who are spiritually weak? And then Laurel, are we 'despising not prophesyings'? Like now it all just comes full circle because he gives this advice and he's like, And it's gonna happ......,like a falling away? I just wonder, I'd love to, I can't wait to talk to Paul and say, Did you feel so defeatd? And when did you know? Did you know in the moment you were writing this? Like at what point on your mission did the Lord let you know this? Because, and you still chose to serve more missions? WHAT?
Tamu 1:07:33
If I could just say one thing, I just want to say, "Paul, she can actually wait. So nobody's in a hurry over here." (laughter) That's first and foremost.
Tammy 1:08:13
All right, I'll wait.
Tamu 1:07:43
But also, I love that, that, I think that some of the best missionaries realize that it's not about them. And as Paul is saying, "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and buy are gathering together unto him," Not unto me, like I'm not telling you this so that you follow me, I'm telling you this so that you follow Christ. And so he is taking himself out of it. And also in the same that like, as he's bringing souls to Christ, he's basically that Pastor that's like, Look around, look at your neighbor. Tell your neighbor I'm gonna make it, I want to make it. Because some of us aren't, some of us just aren't gonna make it.
And so I love the fact that he is doing this work, knowing that he's bringing souls to Christ. And reminding them that, you know, in the same, you know, sentence or in the same chapter, to "Let no man deceive you by any means. For the day will come except there come a falling away first." And so it just to me, it's just, this chapter I love. It's just, is everything. And chapter 5. I love chapter 2, in Second Thessalonians in chapter 5:1, so.
Tammy 1:09:08
They're awesome. And in fact, this is the theme of Second Thessalonians, is this apostasy. Laurel, thank you for coming prepared with that quote. I will never view these verses the same way again, either, just like you. And it has really given me a call to action. Like, am I doing what I was sent here to do? So, Thank you. Brilliant, just brilliant.
Yes.
Laurel 1:09:28
Thank Elder Holland.
Tammy 1:09:28
Thank you Elder Holland, yeah.
Tamu 1:09:30
Thank you Elder Holland.
Tammy 1:09:32
Okay, well in the next segment we're going to study some of Paul's final words to the Thessalonians and to us. We'll do that next.
Segment 6 1:09:38
.....
Tammy 1:09:47
Okay, so we just have to start out this last segment with the way we began, where Paul talked about waiting for his Son from Heaven, waiting for Jesus Christ to come. And here are his parting words to us. Let's go to Second Thessalonians 3:3-5. That's all we're going to read, that's all we're going to talk about, because I just can't think of a more beautiful way to end his conversation with them. Here we go. And Tamu, will you please read those three verses for us.
Tamu 1:10:14
"But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil. And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do, and will do the things which we command you. And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ."
Tammy 1:10:36
Thank you. And then you just want to skip over to verse 13. "But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing." How do these verses strike you in light of everything we've talked about today? and Paul?
Laurel 1:10:50
I just love the affirmation, for lack of a better word. Like, Paul is saying, 'We have confidence in the Lord touching your heart, that you're going to feel this, that you're going to do the things we've talked about. You've got this.' You know, again, maybe because he's early on his mission so he's just so optimistic and hasn't like seen people reject him. But he's, he wants them to, to be able to do this once he leaves. And the whole "be not weary in well doing" just speaks to my heart, because I just think when you're trying to do good, it's exhausting. And I've had this conversation with Tamu a lot about just the exhaustion of just staying in the fight and trying to do good. And it's, that phrase just speaks to me.
I just have to say I love how well Paul loves and I have never noticed that, in all of my readings of the New Testament. For some reason, studying First and Second Thessalonians just, I saw it in a different way. And I want, I want to be like Paul. I've always thought Paul was awesome, but I've literally never said those words: I want to like Paul. He gets it. I just feel like he gets it. He got them then, he gets us now. Like, he thinks we can do it, you know?
Tammy 1:12:17
Yeah.
Tamu 1:12:18
I love the chapter header. "Pray for the triumph of the Gospel's cause."
Laurel 1:12:24
Oh I LOVE that.
Tammy 1:12:27
Oh, Yeah. Highlight that.
Tamu 1:12:29
Like I got so caught up in that. "Pray for the triumph. "Yes, I can do that. And I again, like Laurel mentioned, I love how he phrases things and I love how Paul loves.
Tammy 1:12:46
Wow. Tamu, I just felt the Spirit so strong. That call to action there: "Pray for the triumph of the gospel cause." Because it goes back to what you said Laurel.
Laurel 1:12:57
I'm putting it at the top of my page. Like that is, I had not, I don't know how I missed that.
Tammy 1:13:04
I don't either. And I'm thinking about now and going back to what you talked about Laurel. There are things that are hard right now; there are many things that many of us are struggling with in the church. And if our, in our prayers, if we prayed for the triumph of the gospel cause. I mean, it just helps add to this idea of how much did we love? I mean, I have this quote, and it was when Russell M., our Prophet said this back in 2018 he said, "We're witnesses to a process of restoration. If you think the church has been fully restored, you're just seeing the beginning. There is much more to come. Wait till next year and then the next year. Eat your vitamin pills, get your rest, it's going to be exciting."
I mean, we loved it when he said it. But now when we put it in context of a falling away, a restoration, praying for the triumph of the gospel cause, we are living in the restoration. And if that isn't something we should be praying for, that the gospel cause will triumph and that everything that needs to be restored will get restored and that we can be a part of it. Wow!
Laurel 1:13:46
Amen
Tammy 1:13:49
I felt the Spirit so strong when you read that! Oh, thank you.
Tamu 1:13:59
Amen. Well, when I initially read it, I can tell you that I, it made me, it just made me excited because it felt like victory, you know, victory will be ours. But it also made me, it gave me a heart full of grace for our leaders. Because Tamu as a leader is a mess. I can tell you that right now. But Tamu as a Sunday School teacher is a mess. And I do the best that I can with the tools that I have been given. And I hope that my students, I hope they listen to this, first of all.
Second of all, I hope that they pray for the triumph of our Sunday School, you know, cause, or our Sunday school class. I hope that they pray victory over our class and the members of our class, and especially the teachers. Because I know some of the other teachers, we're all a mess. We're all a mess. And so it gave me a grace for the leaders of our church. And for those who lead other churches, it just gave me grace in my heart for them because I want triumph for them too in their religion, and their walk of faith.
Tammy 1:15:23
Thank you. Thank you, both of you. That was such a great discussion. I love it. First and Second Thessalonians, there it is. So just gather your thoughts and just share with me what is your one takeaway from today's discussion?
Laurel 1:15:38
I want to do my part. I want to be more mindful that I am just, I am part of this whole bigger picture. But truly starting tonight, I am praying for the triumph of the gospel cause. And that is going to be my new beseeching, my new pleading, I love that. That's, that's a game changer for me.
Tammy 1:16:03
Laurel, will you in your next public prayer, pray for that out loud?
Laurel 1:16:08
I actually had the thought when I said that out loud. I'm like, next time I am asked to pray publicly, I am praying for the triumph of the gospel cause.
Tammy 1:16:16
K, good, I want you to do that.
Laurel 1:16:18
I'm gonna do it.
Tammy 1:16:19
That's awesome. What's yours, Tamu?
Tamu 1:16:22
Well, I really thought that it was gonna be 1:5, the gospel not only in Word, but in the Holy Ghost. And, but honestly, my take away is, I, as I read the scriptures moving forward, I will think about our biblical ancestors. And think about the path that they have paved for me, and just include them with my, those ancestors, my pioneer ancestors, my blood ancestors, and invite them to tonversation for how I should proceed. So, ask them what they need from me, and also remember them as I am making choices, you know, to honor them and the hardships that they faced during their lives so that I could have this gospel today.
Tammy 1:17:19
Wow, beautiful takeaway. Thank you. My take away was how many times I felt the Spirit today in our discussion. That every time truth was spoken, in my heart I'm like, Yes, that is right. And how we began: How much Paul loves us, and pray, that he prayed for his people, and that our Prophet prays for us. And I knew when I asked you guys how can we lean into that truth, that I would get a profound answer. And we felt the Spirit of that. Lke, it is not a platitude, it is real. And I'm going to listen for that from now onGeneral Conference. So thank you. Thank you, ladies for coming prepared. And for preaching truth. It was a beautiful discussion. And yeah. I mean of course, pray for the triumph of the gospel cause. I mean, that is so awesome. Oh, I loved it today. Thank you, thank you. I love you guys.
Laurel 1:18:08
Love you. Thank you.
Tamu 1:18:09
I love you guys, too.
Tammy 1:18:12
Oh, my gosh, that was an incredible discussion. Wow. Like, I'm so..... Hoh......Okay. So I want to know what you guys have learned. If you haven't joined our discussion group on Facebook or Instagram, go join it and just start typing right now. Share what you're feeling and share what you're thinking. At the end of the week, we usually ask a question that comes from this episode, so comment on the post that relates to this lesson and share your answer and thoughts. You can get to both our Facebook and Instagram by going to the show notes for this episode at LDS living.com/sunday on Monday. And it's not a bad idea to go there because that's where we're gonna have the links to the references we used today as well as a transcript of this entire discussion and a glue-in for this episode and the picture that we talked about.
The Sunday on Monday Study Group is a Deseret Bookshelf Plus original brought to you by LDS Living. It is written and hosted by me Tammy Uzelac.Hall. And today our incredible study group participants were Laurel Day and Tamu Smith. And you can find more information about my friends at LDS living.com/sunday on Monday. Our podcast is produced by Cole Wissinger and me. It is recorded and mixed by Mix At Six Studios and our executive producer is Erin Hallstrom. Thanks for being here. We'll see you next week.
And please remember that you are loved and that You Are God's Favorite.
What's that meme I sent you?
Laurel 1:19:22
You send a lot of memes. I have no idea.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai