Tammy 0:00

Oh boy, we've got the book of Galatians this week. And some of the strongest wording that Paul has ever used is found in Galatians. In many places, it is a strongly worded letter from Paul to the Galatians and is considered by some scholars to be a declaration of independence from Judaism and their old religious ways. Today we get to examine some of our old ways and consider what we might need to let go of, in order to be free or experience religious freedom. Which term by the way, is used at least 11 times in this letter.

Tammy 0:36

Welcome to the Sunday on Monday Study Group, a Sesert Bookshelf Plus original, brought to you by LDS Living where we take the Come, Follow Me lesson for the week and we really Dig Into the scriptures together. I'm your host, Tammy Uzelac Hall. Now if you're new to our study group, we want to make sure you know how to use this podcast, so please follow the link in our description. It's going to explain how you can best use this podcast to enhance your Come, Follow Me study, just like my friend Heather Johns, who I met at BYU Women's Conference, and she was a service volunteer. And she was in charge of the Adult Christmas Stockings team. So hello, Heather and great work you did on those Christmas stockings. Now another awesome thing about our study group is each week we are joined by two of my friends. So it's always a little bit different. And today, very different, because I don't have two friends, I just have one. And her name is Jackie Wissinger. Hi, Jackie.

Jackie 1:24

Hi, Tammy.

Tammy 1:25

Okay, now. Jackie, tell us where you're from.

Jackie 1:28

I am from Clearfield, Pennsylvania.

Tammy 1:32

And that's where you're recording from, right?

Jackie 1:34

Yes.

Tammy 1:35

Well, I have to tell you how I met Jackie. She's the mother of our fabulous producer Cole Wissinger who I just love working with. So I'm just grateful that I got to meet you, Jackie through your son. Now Jackie, is there anything other than you being nervous that you want us to know about yourself? Anything fun? Fun fact about Jackie Wissinger?

Jackie 1:54

My favorite candy absolutely is chocolate. My favorite non-chocolate candy is caramel creams.

Tammy 2:01

Ooh, yum.

Jackie 2:02

I just like to have fun. I like to laugh. It's important to laugh.

Tammy 2:07

Jackie, you're my spirit animal. Laughter is my love language. Oh, that is awesome. Okay, well, I think we're going to have a great discussion today. And as I told you, when we first spoke, it is highly unusual just to have one guest. But I kept feeling so strongly that you're supposed to be the only guest for this episode. And so I'm really looking forward to what your insights will be, and how much of your life story fits in with the book of Galatians and that word free or freedom. So if you want to know more about my friend Jackie, and read her bio and find a cute picture of her, you can find those in our show notes which are found at LDS living.com/sunday on Monday. So friends, grab your scriptures, your scripture journals and something to mark your Scriptures with and Let's Dig Into the book of Galatians.

Tammy 2:52

Okay, so Jackie, we're going to start out with the question I always ask my friends, when we're discussing the letters from Paul, what stood out to you in this particular letter from Paul to the Galatians?

Jackie 3:03

Well, it's very interesting. I did not find this until last night. It just was there. It's in Galatians 1:8-9. "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you,than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed." He repeated it twice. So it must be important.

Tammy 3:55

Wow. And what specifically about that stood out to you when he says that you would be accursed? Like why do you think he repeated that twice?

Jackie 4:04

Because I think there are so many false ideas and false things out out there in the world. And it's important that when we preach or teach the gospel, that we teach that which the prophets have given us.

Tammy 4:27

Wow, absolutely. You know, Jackie, I'm grateful you shared those two verses, and that they stood out to you, because here's what's so unique about the book of Galatians. The first wave of apostasy has swept through the early church, and it involved many of the Jewish Christians because they just could not abandon their Judaic traditions. And so the Galatian saints, they actually attempted to revise the gospel by bringing back in some of their old ways and pagan traditions, which adds so much more power to the two verses you shared with us. He starts out his letter by saying, But wait You can't be adding things back in, you have to believe the truth of what you've been taught. And so Paul has a lot to say concerning what you've just talked about, the error of their ways. And so what we're going to do, then Jackie is in the next segment, we're going to study this declaration of independence from their faulty ways, and kind of take a journey through the book of Galatians through Paul's eyes and yours as to why the Gospel of Jesus Christ is so important to all of us. So we'll do that in the next segment.

Segment 2 5:27

.....

Tammy 5:37

Okay, so let's go into Galatians chapter 1, and let's bracket off verses 6-9. Jackie, I'm so grateful that you read verses 8 and 9 for us. I'm going to go ahead and just read verses 6-7. Let's read what Paul has to say prior to telling these people that they're going to be accursed. Because Paul is just, it's so interesting the wording he uses here. He is actually shocked or surprised by what's going on. So Galatians 1:6-7 says: "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ." He's like, I can't believe it. Like how fast you have just kind of started to put old ways back in and even pagan ways. And so he reminds the saints there is no other gospel, and to beware of imitations or those who claim to know a better way. And then he teaches us and reminds us in Galatians chapter 2, that salvation comes through Christ, and we get this awesome verse. So let's turn to Galatians chapter 2. And we're going to read verse 20. And Jackie, can you please read verse 20 for us.

Jackie 6:48

Yes. "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless, I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

Tammy 7:14

Thank you, Jackie. I love the way you read the scriptures. It sounds so purposeful, like, I want you to be an official scripture reader for me. That was brilliant. Let's go to verse 20 and mark a few things. It says, "I am crucified with Christ. Nevertheless, I live;" Let's underline "I live". This right here, he's saying I live when my sinful natures die. That's the implication of that. I live when my sinful natures die. Then he says, "yet not I, but Christ liveth in me:" Let's underline that. The meaning of that "but Christ liveth in me" is when I take His name upon me. Every Sunday when I partake of the sacrament, every time I renew my covenants, Christ liveth in me.

Tammy 7:59

And then we have this awesome line when he says, "the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God." And I was struck by this idea, "the life I now live." iAnd Jackie, I was just curious, I wanted to know, how does this first part of the letter, and then Paul's instruction, "the life that I now live", connect to you and your life. Will you tell us a little bit about your story?

Jackie 8:23

Yes, um. I was born prematurely, and my parents were not members of the church. So my husband and I are both converts. I was a 6 1/2 month baby. I weighed 2 pounds, 4 ounces, I was 11 inches long. And I as a result of that, had to be placed in an incubator. So I am blind. I have a condition that they now call retinopathy of prematurity. So yeah, and please feel free to stop me ask me any questions. as I go along. That's fine. When I was 4 years old, my parents decided to send me to the Western Pennsylvania Shool for Blind Children in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, which was about 120 miles from my home. So I had to go to school on Sunday, and come back home on Friday. And it was very difficult at first, but I made lots of good friends at school and I learned so many things that I think I might not have learned had I gone to the public schools in the area, especially during the time that I was growing up.

Jackie 9:50

We learned everything. I went to nursery school clear through my senior year in high school at that school. And then I went to college, I majored in French. And, but before I continue with that, I want to talk a little bit about my great-grandfather. I want to talk about the people who influenced my life. He, his parents came to this country from Wales and he was a very strict Baptist. But he was he was a wonderful man. He was funny, he had a sense of humor. He taught me about God. My parents were good people, but they struggled with going to church and that kind of thing. So I would stay with my great-grandpa Richards, he and his daughter lived together. And at night they would pray at morning and night. And at night, he would have this big long list of people that he would pray for. And it was amazing to me, I just waited to hear my name, because it made me feel special that he would pray to Heavenly Father for me. And so that's how I learned to pray.

Jackie 11:24

When I was 10 years old, I decided to be baptized into the Baptist Church. And as time went on, I kind of got away from church and religion. But I found my faith in college after my freshman year. And then, between my junior and senior year, I was visiting my grandparents, and the missionaries came to the door. And I thought it was my sister and I said, Come on in. And so I was really embarrassed when I found out that it was the missionaries, so I had to let them in anyway. And they started talking to me about Family Home Evening. And I had no idea. I had heard about the church. I saw a Bonanza episode that I just loved, broke my heart when I heard about all the persecutions. But I knew very little about the church. So I had no idea that there was a list of discussions and a whole process. I didn't know what was going on, I was just excited to be learning something new. And I think that was in June. And finally, in August of 1976, I was baptized into the church.

Jackie 12:51

When I was baptized, I did not have a testimony. I wasn't sure about Joseph Smith. I wasn't sure about the Trinity. I wasn't sure about a whole heck of a lot, except that I needed to join the church. I had attended other churches, and I felt a lack in my life. I felt their joy, but I knew there was something missing. And I wanted to be closer to Jesus. And when I decided to join the church, I knew that I had found my answer. And I joined the church without a testimony, without, you know, with only with the knowledge that I needed to do it. It took me almost a year to realize that I had a testimony. I was attending a dance and talking to a friend of mine about the church, about Joseph Smith. And I was telling him all the stuff, the story of Joseph Smith, and I had to yell it because the music was so loud. And so I talked with a friend of mine later and she said, Do you know what you just did? I didn't know what she was talking about. And she said, You bore your testimony. And I realized that that was how I gained my testimony. It was a wonderful thing. And my life hasn't been the same since.

Tammy 14:34

In what way? Is there a specific way you can think?

Jackie 14:38

Oh, my. I guess I had to learn about the Spirit. I know that the Spirit was in part in the other churches that I attended. But there were so many Saspects of the pirit that I had to learn. I had no idea

Tammy 15:00

Yeah

Jackie 15:00

of have the peace, of the calm, of the joy, of the comfort. I had, or just the small, little promptings that I had no idea were the Spirit. That was a big thing that I had to learn.

Tammy 15:22

I can't wait for us, we get to talk about that more today. And that, I'm looking forward to that discussion, because Galatians is the premier scripture about the Spirit and all the ways you can feel of the spirit. So that's going to be awesome to talk about that, Jackie.

Jackie 15:37

Yes.

Tammy 15:39

Well, I keep thinking back to this verse 20, "the life which I now live in the flesh," which was you. The life you're now living as a member of the church. He says, "I live by faith of the Son of God who loved me." Did you ever feel that, that you were living by faith and that you knew you were loved?

Jackie 15:57

Um, before I joined the church? I'm not sure. I prayed. And I found verses in the scriptures that spoke to me. I, but I can't say that I actually understood and felt that, that I had a Heavenly Father, because I, you know, I believed in the Trinity, and that I actually had a Heavenly Father who loves me. And I just was telling someone recently, it means everything to me when I pray.

Tammy 16:42

Tell me why.

Jackie 16:43

To know, to know that Heavenly Father is actually listening to me. And that he is my Father, and I love Him. And I can say anything I need to say to Him, and it's okay, because He loves me.

Tammy 17:03

Wow. Thank you, Jackie, I appreciate you sharing your testimony right there. Do you know what you just did- to quote your friend? Do you know what you just did? You just bore testimony of the power of prayer. And that you know, your Heavenly Father loves you. And I think to this verse, you joining the church and who you are: "the life which I now live in the flesh", I've changed everything. I've come from, you know, kind of a no-religious background, except for what your grandfather taught you, to being very religious. And so I'm curious to know, when did your husband join the church? And how did that work? Were you married when you joined the church?

Jackie 17:43

No, we weren't. He joined the church, actually in 1971. And we didn't meet until like 1985. That is another long story, would probably take another podcast.

Tammy 17:59

Well both you and your husband then, the life you guys now live as being converts of the Church, you made a lot of changes. And I feel like, that,Paul, when he's saying this to the people, he knows what it's like. He had to make changes to live the life that he is now living,

Jackie 18:16

I was just gonna say that I grew up in a dysfunctional family. There was alcohol, there was, I had a lot of verbal abuse, but there was some physical abuse in my family. And I can remember waking up in the middle of the night crying because my parents were arguing. And so it was very difficult. But I had a lot of baggage because of that. And was used to, you know, people yelling, people expressing their opinions and right or wrong or whatever, I had to learn to make some changes. I had to learn that it's not all about me, it's not all about how I feel. It's about other people as well. And I'm still learning that lesson. It's probably going to be a long time before I perfect it. But I'm, I'm learning.

Tammy 19:21

Wow. Well, it's so impressive to hear your story, because all of us listening, in some way can relate that the gospel changes us. The Gospel of Jesus Christ changes people. And we all have these changes that challenge us and help us to grow. And that's the whole point of this verse when He says, "but Christ liveth in me." Like when we take His name upon us we are then, I feel like empowered to make changes and to become better. And that's the purpose of the gospel of Jesus Christ. And Paul has the same message for the Galatian saints. And so in the next segment, we're going to talk about how they can also be empowered through this change and what Paul has to remind them of, and we'll do that in the next segment.

Segment 3 20:06

.....

Tammy 20:16

Jackie, have you ever heard the saying, "You have to learn to crawl before you walk?"

Jackie 20:19

Absolutely.

Tammy 20:21

Okay, what does that imply?

Jackie 20:22

It implies that you just can't jump into things, learning is a process.

Tammy 20:32

Wow. Perfectly said, absolutely. What was it like for you as a mother who can't see, trying to teach a toddler how to crawl and then walk and all that stuff?

Jackie 20:42

It was fun. He was, he was a joy, and still is, in my life. We waited almost four years, over four years before he was born. So I've had to wait for everything, which makes me know that it's all a process. I can remember him walking and holding on to my fingers. And I can remember, he was a climber. And he climbed on top of our upright piano, which scared me to death. I had to put bells on his shoes so that I would know where he was.

Tammy 21:22

Oh, I bet.

Jackie 21:23

Yeah.

Tammy 21:24

Yeah. And I know a little bit about Cole, but I'm imagining he was a very active child.

Jackie 21:28

He was, we were doing some construction on our home. But once he got out of that playpen, there was no stopping him. He was everywhere.

Tammy 21:41

Everywhere.

Jackie 21:42

Yeah, everywhere.

Tammy 21:43

Well, one of the things that I like you just recently said about teaching your children and helping Cole, was in your life by having to wait,is that you learned it's all a process. This waiting and learning and growing. It's all a process. And that's kind of the message that Paul is teaching the saints at this time. So we're going to be in Galatians chapter 3. And just verse 1 is some of that strong wording we talked about at the beginning. Verse 1 says, "O, foolish Galatians." Like he's just, O, you're foolish. You don't understand. I have to reteach you. And then in verse 3, "Are ye so foolish?" He says that again to them. And then he teaches them, Listen, we need to be like Abraham and talk about timing. Jackie talks about waiting. Abraham is a great example, Abraham and Sarah. In fact, in verse 6 it says, Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." He believed in God, and yet he had to wait, he absolutely had to wait. And so he's teaching this truth to the Galatians.

Tammy 22:43

And then he says to them, Listen, the people of Abraham and all of his posterity, they could have had the gospel of Jesus Christ right out of the gates, but they just weren't righteous enough. Because of their sinful actions, they had to be given a lesser law is what we call it, or a lower law. So he says that in verse 19, of Galatians, chapter 3. "Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions." So he's like, that's why they practiced the law back then. We don't have to practice that anymore because we have Jesus Christ. But then we have these awesome verses: highlight and mark, verses 24-29. And in these verses, he teaches such a profound truth. In verse 24 he says, "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith." And then verse 25, "But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster." Now Jackie, we spoke before we did this episode. And you told me that really stood out to you and struck you. And tell me why those verses were significant to you.

Jackie 23:54

Yeah, it did. I'm not even sure why they stood out to me at the time. I think partly because I was familiar with them. But when I think about it, is this whole thing about a process, and going to school? Learning, no matter what you're doing, it takes time, it's a process. And I guess that's my whole point. Nothing that I have done in my life - I knit. Not knitting, not cooking - there is nothing that I just picked up and just like ran away with it, and learned it. And I will share this: It was shortly after I joined the church and I wanted more than anything to be married in the Temple. And I asked Heavenly Father, when? When was I gonna get to be married in the Temple? And the Spirit said, When you are the best person that you can be as a single person, which gave me to understand that, of course I was not the best person that I could be as a single person. But it also helped me understand that it's a process and that Heavenly Father has a plan for our lives. And if we just be patient and do the things that we need to do, even if they're difficult, and some of the things that we have to do are extremely, extremely difficult. But it will work out, as President Hinckley said, and it will come right.

Tammy 25:56

Jackie, as you were talking about how nothing you've done has come easy. And then I apply that to the gospel of Jesus Christ. And you said, so much of what we do is is hard. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is difficult. And I'm grateful that you shared that perspective, because I'm looking at this thinking, how much of what we practice today is the law, or a schoolmaster that will bring us to Christ? All of it. Everything we're doing right now as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, is all a schoolmaster that will bring us closer to Christ. We aren't living the law of Moses, we are leaving a higher law, but we are definitely not living the highest law. All of this is preparatory. Right now I feel like, when I first had a child, one of the things that someone told me, was the most important thing is 'tummy time.' You've got to put your child on its stomach so that it can learn to roll over.

Tammy 26:49

Well, Lily, when I had Lily, she hated tummy time and she would scream and cry, and I didn't want to put her on her stomach. It wasn't, like she didn't like it. And I didn't like her crying. So I kind of would just let her lay on her back. She liked that more. And then someone said, Well, then they get flat heads on the back, they have to be on their tummy. And then one woman told me, because I was complaining about tummy time and she works with special needs children. And she said, Yeah, but you have to give them tummy time because it strengthens their core so that they can learn to roll over. And when they have a strong enough core to roll over, then they'll be strong enough to get up on their hands and knees and crawl. And I didn't realize that it was all important, like all of it rolled into the ability to stand and walk. And I feel like that's where we are with gospel of Jesus Christ. Like the old law was tummy time. And it was hard. And the children Israel didn't like it for 40 years in the wilderness. But then they were able to finally roll over, and now we're crawling. I feel like we're just still kind of crawling.

Tammy 27:44

The Gospel of Jesus Christ was restored, and we started to crawl. And now we're getting more movement. And as our Prophet has told us, we are living in the restoration. And now some of us are starting to get our legs and we're learning to walk. And so when we look at the gospel of Jesus Christ like that, that it's a schoolmaster, but the whole point of it is to bring us unto Christ. And then I love this at the end, for in verse 28, it says, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male or female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." And that is the purpose of the gospel of Jesus Christ, so that ultimately we will all become one in Christ Jesus. And that's the message he wants them to know. It is a process. I'm so thankful you pointed that out, Jackie. And it is a hard process. And I just the thought of you learning to knit, I can't knit and I see! For you to have to learn how to feel and to knit - that is an arduous process. And so I'm thankful for your example of that. Like, yes, living the gospel of Jesus Christ is hard. It is a process, but the goal is to get us to become one in Christ. And I love that!

Jackie 28:55

And even though it is hard, there is joy in living this gospel. Joy each day of our lives that is absolutely unimaginable. I never, I never would have had my husband, never would have had Colwyn. I never would have known that joy if it hadn't been for the gospel and my decision to join the church. And I know that there are many people struggling these days, many people who are single who are longing to be married and to have that joy. And I just know that you just have to hang in there. And I know it's not easy. not easy at all. But it's worth it.

Tammy 29:50

Thank you, Jackie. Right as you said that last part - it's worth it - makes me emotional. I just feel like, the Spirits like, It's worth it, it is worth it. So hang in there, right? It is a process. So, wow, Jackie, thank you for teaching that to us. I really appreciate it. You know, in Galatians, chapter 3, Paul ends with this verse 29. He says, "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Now, the reason why he ends with that verse is because some of the Galatians were really worried that they weren't literal descendants of Abraham, and that they would not receive the blessings promised to Abraham. And as a result, they would never really be free. And they wouldn't receive the ultimate blessing of being, of returning to our Heavenly Parents. And so in the next segment, we're going to discuss what Paul has to say to them, and about that exact subject.

Segment 4 30:53

.....

Tammy 30:53

Okay, so Jackie, I have a question for you. And I didn't prep you with this, but it's okay, you'll be able to answer just fine. What do you think would be the difference between being a child of a king versus a child of a servant?

Jackie 31:09

Well, the child of a king has certainly, has a lot more advantages: education, money, schooling, everything. Theoretically, children of servants would grow up to be servants and they wouldn't be able to progress.

Tammy 31:30

Excellent. Yes, that's it, you are totally right. I want us to be thinking of this answers that Jackie gave, because Paul uses this analogy. So let's go into Galatians chapter 4, and just bracket off verses 1-5. He uses this idea where he says, because remember, the Galatian saints are worried. Like how will we be able to be heirs of all the same things that Abraham and his family if we're not actually related to Abraham? And Paul's teaching them, you don't have to be. You are through the gospel of Jesus Christ. And then he says in chapter 4:1, "Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be Lord of all," Isn't that great? It's like, it doesn't matter where you come from, through Jesus Christ, it's, we're all the same.

Tammy 32:17

And then he gives us this great discussion about the Savior. And he asks questions and Galatians chapter 4 is beautiful because it ends with this really awesome analogy. So verses 1-6 then, are this idea that everybody is going to be heirs. Everyone has the chance through the gospel of Jesus Christ to receive the same blessings. In fact, here's a cool verse, in verse 6 it says, "And because you are sons," (and then I put next to it "and daughters"), "because ye are sons and daughters, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father." Highlight that. And cross reference next to that verse, Marh 14:36. "Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee. Take away this cup from me." And then he says, "Nevertheless, not what I will, but what thou wilt." So there's the reference for saying Abba. So he's even saying like, he's your Father, he's your daddy. Remember, we know this meaning of this word, and you will be able to inherit everything.

Tammy 33:19

Verse 7 says, "Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ." Like you get everything. That is so comforting to know, especially when we talked about - Jackie, for you - your upbringing, and the way that you were raised. How does it make you feel to know as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that your Father gives you everything?

Jackie 33:48

I, it's amazing. To me, I can hardly comprehend it, how it could be. I just, I know of that. With this comes great responsibility, though, I know that too. And it's, it's just, I can hardly wrap my head around it as they say. It's, it's wonderful.

Tammy 34:16

I think that's a great word. In fact I'm putting 'wonderful' next to verse 7. It is wonderful. And Paul teaches the Galatian saints how exactly then they can become heirs, what they need to do. And he gives a really cool parable in this chapter. Bracket off verses 21-31. This is the parable of Hagar and Sarah. So if you read this, you'll be like, What is he talking about? It's, cuz it's just kind of out of nowhere. And it is a parable where he's teaching us that Hagar is a example of the old temporal law. And Sarah is an example of the new spiritual law. And he's saying, We need to cast off our old ways and accept the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. And so Jackie, I asked you to think about this question: As a convert, how are you able to do this? How are you able to get rid of your old ways and accept these new ideas or beliefs?

Jackie 35:11

It's not easy. Because the natural man wants to be critical, wants to complain, wants to just be difficult if things aren't going your way. And I have to admit that I haven't, I haven't perfected this yet, but I'm trying and I at least now I can see the things that I need to do or not do. As I said earlier in this conversation, it's not about me. It's about other people and how I treat other people and how I respond. I think that was one of the first things that I learned in the church, that it's how we respond to the situations that we're in and the circumstances of our lives that makes the difference.

Jackie 35:28

Did you have to change the way you responded?

Jackie 36:21

Oh, yes.

Tammy 36:22

How so?

Jackie 36:23

Yes. Um, well, just in a lot of small things, you know. If my husband does something that frustrates me, I have to, if I'm going to say something, I need to be constructive and kind, or keep or keep my mouth shut. You know, there was a lot of criticism in my home as a child. And when I decided to be married in the temple, and told my mother, she was furious, and said some terrible things to me that I don't even want to remember. I don't even know what they were but it was terrible. But by the time we actually got married, it worked out, it was fine. But I guess that's the whole thing. I learned about repentance because, as I said, when I joined the church, I did not, I heard about, you know, repentance, restitution, you know, all the sorrow for sin and all the processes to repentance. But I had to take care of some of those things after I joined the church because I didn't have a testimony. I didn't understand that there were things that I really needed to take care of and put right.

Jackie 38:05

When I was in college, I cheated on some tests. And, you know, I felt guilty about it, but I just, you know, whatever. And then when I joined the church, I knew I had to make it right. And I did. I repented, I contacted the proper people, and it was, I was forgiven. It's alright, it's done, it's in the past. Just things like that, that I had to change. And it was not easy. It was so hard.

Tammy 38:44

Oh my gosh, so hard. I'm sitting here thinking you just turned that up a notch on letting go of old ways and accepting new ways. Jackie, that must have been so scary to admit to your professors that you cheated.

Jackie 38:59

I was scary. Yes, it was. My mother told me, she told me I was insane.

Tammy 39:05

Oh my gosh.

Jackie 39:06

But I had to do it. I couldn't go forward until I put it right.

Tammy 39:14

Well, in Galatians 4:31, you are verse 31. This verse says, "So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman," (And the bondwoman would mean the old law). "We are not children of the old law, but of the free." That, I mean, you're what you're describing to me just sounded like you felt a level of freedom.

Jackie 39:35

Oh, my, yes. Every time I had to repent of something it was like a weight that was lifted off my shoulders. And I felt such joy. Repenting is hard. You want to run away. You don't want to talk to anybody. You don't want to talk to Heavenly Father. You don't want to, you just, but you do.You have to, you just have to if you want to go forward.

Tammy 40:02

Yeah, you absolutely have to. In fact, I wanted to ask you this question: What suggestions would you give to those of us who struggle with old ideas and are trying to live in the restoration that's ongoing?

Jackie 40:15

I I don't, I don't know if I can think of any practical suggestions. It's just that I had a very act of conscience. And I knew that I couldn't be happy unless I put these things behind me. And I prayed a lot, just a lot, until I could find the courage to do what I needed to do.

Tammy 40:53

I think you hit it right there when you said, having the courage to do what you need to do. Because it is hard, it takes courage to let go of old ways, and to embrace the new ones. And again, to go back to this idea, it takes courage to go from rolling over, to crawling, to walking.

Tammy 41:10

Yep.

Tammy 41:11

For everybody. It takes courage for the one doing it, it takes courage for the parents to trust that their kids.. .hen you walk with your hands in front of them, so they won't fall. And if they do, you pick them back up. And I think that's what the Lord does for us. And our Heavenly Parents is, as we're learning how to go from crawling to walking, They're there to guide us. And when we fall, They're gonna pick us right back up and get us on our feet. That's what They do. And, and that's why in verse 28, when we're called 'children of promise', that's the idea, that the promise is that if we follow Christ, we will be able to return to our Heavenly Parents, they will not leave us on our bottoms. When we fall, They'll pick us back up, and They'll move us towards this level of freedom. So thank you, Jackie, for sharing that very vulnerable and real story.

Jackie 41:55

It's fine. It was scary. I certainly had not even thought about sharing it. But who knows what other people are dealing with. I just know that if you keep trucking, as they say, just keep swimming, you know, all the things that you hear today, just keep going and get through it. And come out on the other side. It's worth it.

Tammy 42:24

It's worth it. Absolutely. Well, thank you, Jackie. Okay, so what we'll do then is in the next segment, we're going to discuss one specific way that Paul suggests that we can live in the restoration. Not only does it take courage, but it takes this one other thing, and we'll discuss that next.

Segment 5 42:39

.....

Tammy 42:49

Okay, so we're going to be in Galatians, chapter 5. And I said this earlier that this is like the quentessential scriptures on the Spirit. You have to go to Galatians chapter 5, and you're going to bracket off verses 16-25. That's what you want, 16- 25. Now Paul is teaching them again, they are children who need to be free, they are children of the promise. You all get to be heirs of Christ and have wonderful things. And then he says, Here's how you're going to do it. Verse 16, "This I say then, Walk in the Spirit." There it is, how do we do this? We walk in the Spirit. That is how we live in the restoration. That is how we get to be able to become heirs, and get everything we've been promised, to walk in the Spirit. Now, Jackie, I want you to talk to us about walking in the Spirit. Because verses 19-21 are all the ways we walk in the flesh. You can bracket that off and write to the outside, 'walk in the flesh.' But verses 22-25 are all the ways that we can feel and walk in the Spirit. So tell us a little bit about this. As a visually impaired woman, a blind woman, how do you walk in the Spirit? What do these, what does that verse mean to you?

Jackie 43:58

So I thought a lot about this. Paul says it a couple of different ways. Couple of weeks ago in 2 Corinthians, he said it, chapter 5:7, "For we walk by faith, not by sight." And that is certainly true, in my case, literally. I don't see anything, I can't see my hand in front of my face, I can't see anything. And so I'm lacking one of the five senses. And so there have been times in my life where I just can't find stuff. I have no idea where it is, no idea where I'd put it. And it's very frustrating to me and I know it's frustrating to everybody when you can't find things. But I think about how amazing it must be to think that Heavenly Father can see everything in the whole entire universe and I can't even see my hand, or whatever. But I get frustrated when I can't find things.

Jackie 45:19

And one time, I was searching for my Braille copy of my Patriarchal Blessing. And I couldn't find it anywhere, and I was getting very frustrated about it. And one time I, I just really expressed that frustration in prayer. And I was just looking around and there it was, there was the book with my Patriarchal Blessing in it. And there have been other times too, when just couldn't find things and, and I prayed, and there they were. So it's very important to walk in the Spirit. I can't survive without walking in the Spirit. And it's even more and more apparent in these days. So I have a quote that I'd like to read by President Nelson. "It will not be possible to survive spiritually without the guiding, directing, comforting, and constant influence of the Holy Ghost."

Tammy 46:29

Oh I love that quote.

Jackie 46:30

I do too. It's kind of like my mantra.

Tammy 46:35

Tell me why.

Jackie 46:37

Well, because because I had to make changes. I'm a reader, I love to read. And I love to read fiction. And I just, I just love a good novel, mysteries, history, anything. I liked to be read to when I was a child. I started reading talking book, started out with records when I was in school. And so I have always been quite a reader. I would finish a book and start another one right away. And sometimes too much reading or too much of anything, can just turn you into a zombie. Did Jesus get totally distracted, totally closed to the Spirit? And so I found it very vital for me to limit the time that I read, like novels. When I read the scriptures, I read them audiolly and I also read them in Braille. I, when I really want to study, I prefer reading them in Braille. But I know that this reading thing is not the same for everyone, you know. We might all have our, our distractions and things that we need to maybe give up or pare back. I think walking in the Spirit is, is pretty much the same for all of us. We have to figure out what's important to us. But as I've said - I don't know how many times in this podcast - it's really worth it. It really is.

Tammy 48:40

Jackie, I'm going to read verses 22 and 23 of Galatians chapter 5, which specifically tell us different ways we can feel the spirit or walk in the Spirit. And as I read these verses, I want to know if there is one specific way that stands out to you, that resonates with you as to how the Spirit speaks to you with any of these feelings. So here we go.

Tammy 49:03

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith. Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." Those are all the ways we can feel the spirit. Is there one that specifically stood out to you that that's how the Spirit speaks to you?

Jackie 49:23

Peace. Peace is the one. When I, when my husband and I were getting to know each other, I had planned to move to Utah and maybe take a few classes, because he was living in Utah at the time going to BYU. And I was getting ready to go, I was packing, I packed a box. I had a blessing from a dear friend and I was told that I would know very specifically, I would get an answer and I would know that it was from Heavenly Father. So I woke up in the middle of the night and felt that I needed to pray. And I, and so I got up and I prayed. As I was kneeling, the Spirit said, You, the Spirit told me that I was not moving to Utah. And I was devastated. I was devastated. I thought, Oh, it's over, it's just over. And the Spirit said to me, You have not lost anything. And I thought, Oh, whatever. But after that, I had such peace. There was this was a Saturday night, and I felt peace the next day, all through church. I had a wedding reception that my brother had gotten married. We went to the wedding reception and the calm and the peace lasted the whole day. And there was just no doubt that what I received was from the spirit. No doubt, no one can duplicate that feeling of peace.

Jackie 51:21

You are 1,000% right when you just said that. No one can duplicate that feeling of peace. I absolutely agree. And in fact, all the ways we feel the Spirit, I just don't know that they can be duplicated by anything else. I would be interested to know, maybe this is the question we're going to ask people to share this week is, How does the Spirit speak to you? From Galatians 5:22-23. What can you not deny? I always would laugh with longsuffering. In fact, I taught this to my daughters a couple of week ago when I said, Here's all the ways you can feel the spirit. And then I said, longsuffering is one of my favorites because, then I said, Are there ever times when you want to hit your sister, but you don't? And one sister was like, No, I usually hit her. I'm like, that's true. But we laughed, and she's like, Yes, there's tons of times when I I want to hit her but I don't. And I'm all, That's longsuffering. That is the Spirit, you are following the prompting of the Spirit not to do that one thing. And I think how often we experience that.

Jackie 52:17

And then meekness, temperance. That is such a powerful word that. That is not being, that's not giving into passions, or anything else that your body or the natural man, as you've taught us, and brought up in this conversation, that the natural man wants, and you're able to just say, No. That's temperance, meekness. I like the definition of meekness. We've defined it many times in this podcast, but my favorite is by Neal A Maxwell, Power Under Control." Meekness doesn't mean quiet and submissive. It's a powerful word right there, meekness. Power in control. And then verse 25, Paul teaches us, if we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. And so using that quote that you gave us at the beginning, Jackie, from our Prophet, how important it is to figure out how the Spirit speaks to us, and how it is a lifelong process. And you're right, I don't think anybody has perfected the ability to walk in the Spirit. It is a lifelong process. That word keeps coming up. It is a lifelong process, and something that all of us have to learn how to do. And to be honest, it's a lot easier to walk in the flesh. If you read through verses 19-21, that's a pretty easy ask, right?

Jackie 53:30

Yep, absolutely. I like what you said, about how many times do you feel like you want to hit your sister and you don't? And how that, and how that's the spirit. I know about that. I know about the longsuffering. And when you would just like to scream at someone and tell them. And so you don't feel the Spirit, you feel angry. But the fact that you don't do or say what you want to do or say, it means that you're following the spirit. I really like that. I hadn't thought of it that way before.

Tammy 54:08

And isn't that wonderful that when you're in that moment of rage, the Spirit can still be like, Nope, don't say it.

Jackie 54:14

Yeah.

Tammy 54:14

And then you, Oh, okay. Yeah, it's pretty awesome when you read these words. Another one that I really appreciate is the joy. And you can feel love and joy every day. Sometimes we often equate the Spirit with these big spiritual experiences, which it is. And it's also these little ones. How many, if you're ever feeling love or joy or peace, you're feeling the Spirit. I could ask my girls when they come home from school, How was your day? Oh, fine. Well, did you feel joy today? Did your feel happy at any point? And if they said yes, you can say, Oh, you felt the Spirit today. And helping our children recognize and helping our nieces and nephews and anybody that we teach in church, Young Women, Young Men, helping them understand that you feel the Spirit a lot more than you realize. And then helping them understand, You're walking in the Spirit. And that is key to living in these last days before Christ comes again, is we really are walking in the Spirit, and we're just trying to perfect that until He comes.

Jackie 55:13

Absolutely.

Tammy 55:14

So, that was a great discussion. Thank you for sharing that. Okay, so still in Galatians chapter 5e, let's just highlight verse 14. Paul says, "For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. "And so in the next segment, we are going to talk about the importance of loving thy neighbor as thyself and what Paul had to teach the Galatians and us about fulfilling this law. We'll do that next.

Segment 6 55:41

.....

Tammy 55:51

All right, let's turn to Galatians chapter 6 and highlight verses 2 and 9. And Jackie, will you please read these two verses for us - verse 2 and then verse 9. This is what Paul instructs us on how we can love thy neighbor as thyself.

Jackie 56:09

Yes. "Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ." Verse 9 : "And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season, we shall reap, if we faint not.

Tammy 56:31

Thank you. So there it is, "Bear one another's burdens, and to be not weary in well doing." Let's talk a little bit about that. And that was one of the first things that you said stood out to you, when we talked originally. And I love that you have since had other things stand out to you. But you said, you're struck by this idea of bearing one another's burdens. So tell me a little bit about why that is so important to you as being a member of Christ's Church.

Jackie 56:58

I think, for me, I feel as though it is one of the ways that I serve. I'm a phone person, I always joke that if they bury me, they might have to put a phone in there with me. I don't, because I do a lot of listening. And I feel that it's just the best way that I can help people. It's not always easy for me to go and clean somebody's house, or I do cook meals for people sometimes. But listening is the way that I serve. And sometimes if there's advice to give, I will do that. But I really try not to give advice, because that just doesn't work. People have to make their own choices and figure things out for themselves. But it's important to have somebody to just talk to, and just be able to share. Because sometimes if you talk, you really don't need advice, you figure it out yourself. So I guess that is just, that's my way of serving as a member of Christ's church.

Tammy 58:25

You know, Jackie, I'm grateful that you shared that with us, because it's, it can seem like there are certainly certain specific ways we can bear one another's burdens. And as a blind woman, I like that you pointed out you can't always go in and clean someone's house. That bearing one another's burdens looks different for every single one of us. And we have to find and decide what it is, what gifts God has given us, and abilities to truly bear another person's burdens. And so I'm grateful you pointed that out that for you, it's talking, having the phone, being buried with a phone, that was funny. But being a good listener is one of your spiritual gifts. It's also beautiful how in our Patriarchal Blessing we can read that and it will tell us what our spiritual gifts are and what the Lord has given each one of us individually to help bear another, other person's burdens. And I was just curious to know, does your Patriarchal Blessing say anything about other gifts you have, to bear people's burdens?

Jackie 59:20

It does. It tells me that I have within me the ability to make many people happy and to help them to draw closer to their Heavenly Father. It also warns me three times of things that I need to be aware of. I need to not be discouraged, not feel forlorn or forsaken, three times. It's, something like that is in my patriarchal blessing. And so I know that my attitude is very important because I can't help others if I'm depressed and discouraged all the time. And there have been times when I have felt that I have lost that person that I was. But I keep praying and, and going on and, and hopefully I, hopefully I have found that person again. I think my Patriarchal Blessing tells me to just strengthen my testimony, because I'll have opportunities to bear my testimony to those who aren't members of the church, and that it will give them the desire to learn more about their Heavenly Father.

Tammy 1:00:38

I have a question for you: Is there a specific experience where you felt someone bore your burdens?

Jackie 1:00:43

Oh, yes. These are three friends. So four of us all together, we grew up together, we went, we were in the same class. We've known each other since like nursery school and kindergarten. And so we've been through a lot together. And they all live in Pittsburgh, which is about 120 miles from where I live, so I don't get to see them that often. But every morning, somebody starts the texting chain. And we are, we're in touch, we figure out what we're all going to do during the day. And we support each other. And sometimes we get together and have, -what would it be - 4-way phone conversations. They're my community.

Tammy 1:01:37

That is a beautiful point that you just gave to us, which is, when we read "to love your neighbor," sometimes we automatically think that it means our next door neighbor or people in our ward. But you gave a beautiful example of how your neighbor can be someone that lives 200 miles away, a different continent. Neighbor is a bigger word than sometimes we often lend it to be, and your neighbors live a two-hours' drive from you. And you are helping each other out and you're bearing each other's burdens. I really appreciate that, that idea you just gave to us. It's so much bigger than your next door neighbor.

Jackie 1:02:13

It is and there are members of my branch who I feel very close to. But it's not like, it's not like friends that you grew up with. The branch is very spread out. Yeah, I can't just pop next door and talk to someone.

Tammy 1:02:35

Um-hmm. Well, and the verse doesn't say, I'll go back to it, it doesn't say, "Thou shalt love thy neighbor of your own religion, of your same religion," either. Thou shalt out love thy neighbor. Neighbor is anybody. And this is interesting. When it says "Love thy neighbor as thyself," we talked about this several segments ago. And our guest said the way she views that is much different than people would think. But it goes back to what you said earlier, Jackie, your Patriarchal Blessing warns you that you can't love somebody, unless you love yourself. And how your Patriarchal Blessing encourages you to not be discouraged. And that by doing that you can fully authentically love someone. And so I think that's beautiful, this idea of loving thy neighbor as thyself. And being authentically you. One of the things I love about bearing another person's burdens, Fiona Givens taught this to me. And she said, "When you bear someone's burdens, when you bear their cross, it's a physical, tangible thing. When Simeon carried the Savior's cross, that beam, he had to physically touch it, he felt the weight of it on his shoulders, and he carried it to where the Savior would be crucified. And she said, we have to be the same way we have to be willing to get the grooves in our arms from carrying a heavy burden, we have to be willing to be feel maybe the different grooves in this person's cross beam, and how heavy it is, and what does it feel like? And you both have to stop and rest because it's so heavy. And it's interesting, because in Galatians 6:17, Paul says, "From henceforth let no man trouble me: for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus." That word 'marks'in Greek is the word 'stigmata.' And it's where we get the word 'stigma' from. And the word stigma is a brand or a mark burned into the skin. It's like a tattoo that was burned into the skin of a slave in New Testament times, proving that they belonged to a particular owner. And my question when I studied this was, Who do my marks prove that I belong to? Who is my owner? Is it Christ? Have I, am I the type of person who will bear a neighbor's burdens to the point where it is heavy, it is on my shoulders, but that I have the stigmata or the marks of the Lord Jesus Christ on my back and in my arms because I've helped to bear people's burdens? And then we go to that verse to "Let us not be weary in well doing." And this idea, Jackie, that being a member of the Church of Jesus Christ, it's hard. And it requires a lot of us. And I like how you said, it is a process, isn't it?

Jackie 1:05:15

Oh, absolutely.

Tammy 1:05:17

When your friends have helped carry your burdens, and when you have carried other people's burdens, you said they give you strength and support. Will you just tell me what that looks like, strength and support. Bbecause I'm imagining that those are marks that they can, that they're giving their spirits, maybe. Like what does strength and support look like for you?

Jackie 1:05:39

To me, I just feel lighter. You know, if if someone else is helping you carry the load, it's lighter. It's lighter for both of you.

Tammy 1:05:53

Definitely. And then you both end up with the marks of Christ. Isn't that awesone?

Jackie 1:05:56

Yes, yes.

Tammy 1:05:58

Yeah. And those are the only marks we need. Oh, Jackie, thank you so much for joining us today. This was a great discussion about the book of Galatians.

Jackie 1:06:08

Well, thank you for having me.

Tammy 1:06:10

Yeah, it was just you. You were the only guest for today. Your stories are beautiful. I, yeah. I have a lot of takeaways. Okay, so this is what I ask my guests to do at the end of each episode, is just to think of what your takeaway was from studying Galatians. Is there something that stood out to you from our discussion today, or anything else that we can, that you want to add?

Jackie 1:06:33

I guess if I had to think of something, it would be walking in the Spirit. I guess I want to mention, you can put it in or not, that in my Patriarchal Blessing, it tells me that I will know who am I am to choose as the person who is to be my companion, my husband, the father of my children, the one who has to walk with me through life. And then it goes on a little. But that, to me, that's important. We walk through life. If we try to run, or do anything other than walk, it just doesn't work. And if we're going to walk, we might as well walk with the Spirit.

Tammy 1:07:26

That is so good. Thank you, Jackie, you're right. We don't need to run, we just need to walk and then walk in the Spirit. That is a beautiful takeaway. My takeaway was when you just, the idea that it's a process. That kept coming up in our discussion. And when you said how, in your life everything for you has been difficult or hard. It's been a process that you've had to learn. And then when you said at the end, but it's worth it. I definitely, the Spirit, I felt that so strong. It is worth it. And it is hard, it's very hard. And this ending with the marks of Christ on our arms and our shoulders, that's what we'll end up with. And that those marks will leave marks of Christ. That's who we belong to. And so I hope that that's what I can say at the last day is I did, I did my best. I was not wearying in well doing. It was so hard. And it was worth it. So, thank you Jackie.

Jackie 1:08:17

Absolutely. I like that. I I had never thought about having the marks of Christ on our bodies, on our backs, too. I like that. Great discussion.

Tammy 1:08:30

Thank you, friend. I'm so glad you were here today.

Jackie 1:08:33

Thank you so much for having me.

Tammy 1:08:37

Well, of course, we want to know what you learned. So if you haven't already joined our discussion group on Facebook or Instagram, go join it. It's a great place where you can share what you've learned. And at the end of the week, we'll ask a question from our discussion and we'd love to know what your thoughts are on that question. Comment on the post that relates to this lesson and share your answer and thoughts. You can get to both our Facebook and Instagram by going to the show notes for this episode at LDS living.com/sunday on Monday and go there because it's where we're going to have links to the references as well as a transcript of this entire discussion, and a glue-in for this episode. So go check it out.

Tammy 1:09:08

The Sunday on Monday Study Group is a Deseret Bookshelf Plus original brought to you by LDS Living. It is written and hosted by me, Tammy Uzelac Hall. And today our awesome study group participant was Jackie Wissinger and you can find more information about my friend at LDS living.com/sunday on Monday. Our podcast is produced by Cole Wisssinger and me. It is recorded and mixed at Mix at Six Studios, and our executive producer is Erin Hallstrom. Thanks for being here.

Tammy 1:09:32

We'll see you next week and please remember that You Are God's Favorite.

Jackie 1:09:37

I'm too nervous to be hungry. I'll wait.

Tammy 1:09:41

I love you so much.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai