Tammy 0:00

Okay, listen. I gotta tell everybody - the three of us, meaning myself and my two guests, we have talked and we can absolutely agree with certainty that this may have been one of the most difficult episodes to prepare for. Now why? Because there is just too much goodness packed into these verses. So we're entering into Second Corinthians, specifically chapters 1-7, and they are awesome. These chapters are filled with so much goodness that choosing what to discuss about it was just too difficult. So I don't even know if I got it right. But I hope what we do cover will be what your little soul needs, because I know it's what my soul needed today.

Welcome to the Sunday on Monday Study Group, a Deseret Bookshelf Plus original brought to you by LDS Living, where we take the Come, Follow Me lesson for the week and we really DIG INto the scriptures together. I'm your host, Tammy Uzelac Hall. Now if you're new to our study group, we just want to make sure you know how to use this podcast. So follow the link that's in our description. And it's going to explain how you can best use this podcast to enhance your Come, Follow Me study just like my friend Christine Jensen Peters. Hi, friend. Oh, you are going to love who my guest is today. You have a direct connection with her. So that's my other favorite thing about this podcast is we are joined by two of my friends. And so this week I cannot wait to introduce you to two new people; you've never met them. I've known them for a little while and I adore these two women. We have Anna Andrews. Hello, Anna.

Anna 1:25

Hi.

Tammy 1:26

And then we have Tammy Cutler. Hi, Tammy.

Tammy C 1:29

Hi. Love your name.

Tammy 1:32

Ditto. Listen, when I first started this podcast, Tammy shows up on my doorstep with cheese. She brought me cheese because we're in the same stake. She's like, "You don't know me. You probably think I'm a crazy lady, but I just had to bring you cheese." Immediately I fell in love. You were so nice. Okay, now I found out though, this was such a cool experience because I invited each one of them separately and then found out they know each other really well. So how do you two know each other? Take it away, Anna.

Anna 2:01

So we, let's see, we've lived in the same neighborhood for 20 years. And Tammy is iconic. And we started working in Young Women's together years and years ago. And then we graduated to Emotional Resilience together, and we did that for a year. And now we work in the Relief Society together.

Tammy C 2:24

We do.

Anna 2:26

We've just had a long, fine relationship.

Tammy C 2:29

I have to say that our Bishop told me when he asked me to work with Anna again, in a Relief Society, that he just called her to barely to be our Relief Society president. And he said, "Isn't it crazy that my new leaders are both from Emotional Resilience?" I thought that was kind of sweet. I think you're resilient, Anna."

Anna 2:50

It was definitely a good preparation for the current seat that I sit in.

Tammy 2:56

Well, I don't know, can you tell us a little bit about Emotional Resilience, because I don't really understand what that means when you say Emotional Resilience, and you guys worked together in that. Tell us about that.

Anna 3:06

So we I don't know how it looks in other wards, but I know it's not, it seemed it was sort of pitched to us like, 'We're trying this out and good luck with that.' So you get a manual and we did some recruiting. This is a new thing. It's going to be awesome and you should come do it with us. And there were people who felt really strongly about doing it. And it was men and women. And eventually we opened it up for teens. But we would meet once a week. And I think there're 10 lessons,Tammy, make 12?

Tammy C 3:40

10

Anna 3:41

And every week you just go through the manual. And it's really comprehensive. It doesn't take a lot of additions or embellishments. Of course that happens and people share how this impacts them or what experience they had from the past week. But it's a really, it's a really beautiful platform to talk about struggles, talk about how you're growing, talk about something that didn't work quite right for you. And other people in the group are like, Oh, yeah, I dealt with that. And I worked through that like this. It was, it was magic. And I am a horrible night person. I'm up at like five o'clock in the morning. And when I got that calling, I was like, Oh my gosh, I'm never gonna be able to do that. But it matters. It mattered. And it mattered every week, and it mattered for the entire year. And it was amazing. It was magic.

Tammy 4:40

Is it during church? Is it during church like a Sunday school class?

Tammy C 4:44

We did it on Wednesday or Tuesday. It changed. We had like three sessions. But the one thing that I thought will help Anna in her current calling is it also teaches you how to react with others who are having difficulties. There's one whole lesson about, you know, 'How do you respond to people who are really struggling?' And it was really intuitive for us to talk about the difficulties we've had in our lives and, and what really helped get us through. And the people, some of the people what they said and what they didn't say that helped us get through those things. And it's a great class; we feel like, just like other things in the church, that prepare us for things to come. Emotional Resilience is preparing us for our time.

Tammy 5:26

Oh, and is it a church manual?

Tammy C 5:28

Yes. The name of the manual is "Finding Strength in the Lord."

Anna 5:33

And we did it three times. So we have the the winter session, and then we have the summer session, then we have a fall session. And in every time, it was magic, every time it was, it was where people needed to be. Oh, that's amazing.

Tammy 5:50

Okay. Well, listen, that manual says everything because I cannot get over how much of emotional resilience is woven into today's discussion. This is going to be, this is just blowing my mind now because it will come up I think many times. And I cannot wait to get your insights on what you how you think emotional resilience fits in with what Paul's trying to teach the Corinthians in this letter. And we've learned that this is technically the third letter that Paul wrote the Corinthians. And so last week, I loved how Levi Hepree taught us that He felt like I Corinthians was sort of a exhausted parent letter, like, get it together, come on. And so now I kind of feel like 2 Corinthians chapters 1-7 is sort of like, Alright, let me tell you how to do this, and some emotional resilience. So this is gonna be awesome.

All right, everybody, grab your scriptures, something to mark your Scriptures with and the Scripture journal. And Let's Dig In to 2 Corinthians chapters 1-7. Okay, so the thing I'm asking all of my guests to do when they come on the podcast, while we're going over the letters, is I always joke if Paul saw the church today, we would be getting a letter. So I want to know, before we even start into 2 Corinthians, chapters 1-7, what stood out to you, is there something specific that hit you as you were reading?

Tammy C 7:05

Okay, um, I can do that. I just was really struck by how his words reminded me of our current propjet, how he looks at what we are doing, and I keep on thinking in General Conference, I'm going to hear this, Ah, you people. Straighten up. And he doesn't do that. He just doesn't do that to us. He talks about, he talks about encouragement. He talks about, you know, he even says those people who are messing up, let them, give them a chance, give them a second chance, give them a third chance, help them because this may be heavy for them. And he's just giving us all kinds of opportunities and chances to change.

He reminds me of our current, enthusiastic, happy, beautifully cheering prophet and remember, chapter 2:1, "But I determined this with myself that I would not come again to you in heaviness." In other words, in 7 we get this idea. Yes, he's come in heaviness. He's kind of let us know that sometimes his words have to be stinging so that we change our ways. But here in chapter 2, he's saying, you know, 'Not today, I'm not coming in heaviness and I'm not going to come in heaviness for a while. I am going to encourage you to be better and I feel like our prophet now really encourages us and I just love President Nelson's words in Paul.

Tammy 8:38

Great example. I liked that verse you have us put, that's great. I circled the word 'heaviness'. I'm not coming to you in heaviness because sometimes it feels heavy. Huh?

Anna 8:47

That's what I thought. For me, it was all about paradoxes. Like he's trying so hard to be nice. And when I read this, of course, I hadn't studied I Corinthians, that came later and I was like, Oh, somebody just got in trouble. This is so, you know, this is so much like what a parent does. Like, Okay, sorry, like, I know I took you to the tool shed but now I can do this increase of love for you. So I liked that it was sort of like the balancing of the chastening and the love and then the the sub for it and the comfort and the sacrifice of the body for the eternal spirit and then God is omnipotent, but also Satan's real. Like there just seems some many paradoxes in there that I thought that was really, that was really awesome. And I I don't know. The letter that I think he would write to us today is that mist is darker than you think. Hold on tight. So

Tammy 9:45

OH, wow. When you said that, that hit me. "The mist is darker than you think. So hold on tight." Ah, that gave me chills. Wow.

Anna 9:55

So the other part that I really, that really struck me about these verses was , I mean, Tammy, I was like in love with that first credit, the chapter 2. Like, you can just see him being like, 'I have more things I could say to you, but I just determined that I'm just not going to. I'm just gonna like, pull back.' And then the very thing, the next thing is , "For if I make you sorry," that's in verse 2, "who is he then that maketh me glad, but the same which is made sorry for me." And I thought as a parent, we spend so much time sort of juggling those two sides of I'm trying to criticize or not criticize, so like encourage this behavior. And sometimes that lands hard, but also I super love you.

And I thought if we are not the source of joy in the Gospel, then where is it? As parents, we have to, they have to see the joy, they have to see the byproduct of the gospel is joy. That when I'm in a bind, I can go to the gospel toolbox, and I can find the tool that works for me. It's not a list of: these are the jobs you have to do and you're never going to be good enough. Like if we are not the source of joy for our kids, then where are they going to go? And I love that Paul's like, I'm going to make this a safe and happy and joyful place for you. I know, I just yelled at you before, but today is the happy place, which I just loved. I thought that was so so good.

Tammy 11:31

Well, and Anna, I just really, really like so much how you said that we are the source of joy for our children because of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Right

Like that's interconnected. We talked about this last week, and I'm still thinking about it a ton, which is we often get caught up in this lie that Satan says, 'Well, you did everything you could for your kids, and look how they turned out. So you might as well just give up now.' And that we feel like, Well, we did everything we could, and I'm realizing I'm doing everything I can not necessarily so my kids will turn out, it's so I will turn out. And that I will be a source of joy because of the gospel of Jesus Christ so that my kids really will somewhere down the road turn to me. Or and I look at people in my life, who do we turn to? So I love how you said that, that we are have to be the source of joy for our children, because they're not going to figure it out right now. They're gonna mess up.

Anna 12:21

Yeah. And they're gonna be

Tammy 12:22

They absolutely are.

Anna 12:23

It's, it's, I call it like invisible tools. And you don't even know that you're carrying them. But when you find yourself in that hard, hard place, you're gonna look around and hopefully you will find a tool that I've given you or that the gospel provides. But if you don't, at least you'll know my joy. I can go back to that person for joy. I'm not gonna go back to the person that makes me feel bad about, that I'm not measuring up or that I'm insufficient, or I'm not trying hard enough, or whatever I can offer right now isn't enough. That's just not a place that kids are going to go back to again and again. It's a, that's an empty well.

Tammy 13:03

Ooh. Empty well indeed. Hold please.

Tammy C 13:05

One scripture that when you asked us to look at this whole segment, I sometimes when I read my scriptures, and it's in the morning, I think better in the morning. And I have these little 3 x 5 cards and I will write down a scripture that really hits me. And there were two in this section, which is really surprising because I don't have very many. But one of them is in chapter 3:2 and 3. 'For our epistles written in our hearts known and read of all men.' In other words, we are the epistle. And this isn't a fledgeling church. Every one of us in this church and in that church is an epistle, the way we live our lives, the way we we react with other people. We are the epistle. "Forasmuch as ye are" - in 3 - "Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declaree to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink" (I love this part.), "but with the Spirit of the Living God, not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart." His word. He has you in the fleshy tables of our heart. I mean, if it is written there, how can we say no. It is written in our heart.

Tammy 14:29

Tammy Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness, you're right. We are the epistle or the letter. And it is written on our heart. Oh my gosh, thank you for noticing that verse. That was powerful when you said it, and it just connects beautifully back to what Anna was saying. Like, I don't want to be mean, I just want to love you because my heart is converted and I know you believe, you've always believed. Come on. Let's just all get back together where we were, like it's in the fleshy the tables of your heart and unfortunately you're being led astray by Satan right now. He's just trying to confuse everybody and "the mist of darkness is darker than you think." I'm never gonna forget that, Anna. That is, like, 'hold on. But what I'm about to tell you is going to help you.' So I think that's sort of the message right here. So thank you for sharing what you learned from this letter. And so going back to then this idea that he's like rebuking them, but he doesn't want to come with a spirit of heaviness. I'm so grateful you shared that Tammy. He doesn't want to come in heaviness. So I like how right out of the gates, he starts with something so soft and beautiful. And we'll discuss what that is in the next segment.

Segment 2 15:33

.....

Tammy 15:42

Okay, so a couple of years ago, when I went back into teaching Seminary, I did a little bit of substitute teaching. And I was in this classroom and this young man volunteered to say the prayer. He may have been about 16, tall, you know, big build, like he looked like a sporty guy. And his prayer started out by this: "Our dear, kind, and gracious and loving Heavenly Father." And then he went on to pray. And it really hit me that he used all those words, those adjectives to describe Heavenly Father. I expected it to just be "Dear heavenly Father. We're grateful for this day." So when he got done praying, I said, Hold the phone. How did you know to start your prayer that way? He goes, What do you mean? And I said, By saying, "Dear kind and loving and gracious Heavenly Father. How do you know to do that? And he just kind of looked at me and blinked, like there was like this silence. And then he said, Well, my mom taught me. And that's just what we believe about Him.

And I had just, like, I'd had little kids at home and I thought, I have got to change up the adjectives I use to describe our Heavenly Father. I want you to be thinking about that. And I want us to jump into II Corinthians 1:3, we're just doing one verse right here. And let's read the adjectives that Paul uses to describe Him. Anna will you please read verse 3 for us.

Anna 17:03

"Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;"

Tammy 17:11

Okay, right there. Let's underline that. Paul describes Heavenly Father as the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort. Do you imagine if we started our prayers like that, "Dear Heavenly Father, the Father of mercies, the God of all comfort." When you read those words, right there, tell me what it, what it evokes within you. Like what are your thoughts about that description of God? or those descriptions of God?

Anna 17:35

Well, I think that gratitude is laced through that, which I think is a really great place to start a conversation. And I am struck by the, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Like if you could even come to a small understanding of what Christ does for you, that would be the very first thing that you would say.

Tammy 17:59

Oh, wow. Hold on, let me underline that. I'm going to circle the word 'even' right there, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Keep going, Oh, Anna, that's good.

Tammy C 18:10

I didn't have that father; I liked that 'even. The thing that I thought about when I read this was father. I am fortunate enough to have an amazing father, he made it easy for me to understand an Eternal Father. And I know, not everybody has that opportunity. But some people maybe need to let repentance help their father, to become that kind. And others need to make that kind of parenthood in their own life with related or unrelated people.

Anna 18:44

I had a limited father, he was good at certain things, and really struggled with other things. And I was probably 25 when I was like, this is a problem for me. And I went and talked to my bishop. And I was like, I don't have an example. So when you use the word father, that connotes , sits wrong for me. That's not a safe place for me. And he said, then in your brain, call your dad something else. Because father is the person who does all of these things. He's the one that the comfort and the mercy and Christ and He's the one. So give that title to Him and save your biological, your earthly father, give him a different title. And that distinction in my brain was huge. Like, I could love Heavenly Father, and I could have this other space for my earthly father.

Tammy 19:41

And did it, and it worked?

Anna 19:43

Yeah, totally worked. Yeah. It was, I mean I'm all about words. So the right word matters for me. It may not matter for someone else, but it always matters for me.

Tammy C 19:52

That's beautiful

Tammy 19:54

That's a beautiful example. Yeah, beautiful.

Tammy C 19:57

I just want to say too, I love you, Anna. But I want to say to you that my father's name is Paul.

Anna 20:05

Interesting.

Tammy C 20:07

And the reason his name is Paul is because of these very words in our scriptures. My grandmother wanted him to become the best missionary on the in the world. And he actually did become the best missionary. He called it ..........Day. I don't even know if that's real. But I think it's Spanish. He he was a missionary of all missionaries; he served six total missions.

Tammy 20:33

Wow.

Tammy C 20:35

He expected all of his children to be missionary minded. And all of us are I think, I think we really

Anna 20:42

Yes, you are.

Tammy C 20:43

We are, we try.

Anna 20:44

Yeah, you are.

Tammy C 20:45

Anyway, it's a good thing to be able to look at these scriptures and to think about our Heavenly Father. And our other. I, I love that I get to, I'm sorry, Andrew, but I love that I get to denote this with my father, and his letters, basically, to me and to my family.

Tammy 21:08

Okay, well, then, here's what I want to know. Going back to verse 3, then, if these were the words that Paul uses to describe his Heavenly Father, what are words you would use to describe yours? And I love how we have two stark contrasting experiences with this. So what are your words for Heavenly Father?

Tammy C 21:27

Well, I think mine is Father. I think Father. It gives me all the love, it gives me all the support, it gives me all the hope for my future, and for my forever that I want. And so I'm grateful for that term. And I am grateful that your husband is one of those who denotes that truth.

Anna 21:50

So, 'father' for me, I mean, as much as I try to make it be omnipotent, for me it's still is a little, I'm not completely successful with that. And it's something like explaining lying to a fish. Where you're like, I know that that exists. But I just haven't totally experienced, you know, like, that just doesn't totally work for me. So for me, it really is of my experience with Heavenly Father informs my words for Heavenly Father. So I, when I was thinking about this question, I was thinking about an experience that I had after my third child, and I, she was a girl, I had two boys and then a girl. And I looked at her and I just was like, overwhelmed by sadness for my relationship with my own mother. And it started to create this huge chasm. And I mean, pretty soon I was like, in the bottom of the chasm, like describing the chasm to everyone around me, more specifically to myself, you know. This is a huge chasm, this was really dark, I'd be really sad about this chasm. And finally I was like, Okay, I gotta go to therapy.

So I made an appointment, I drove, left my tiny family, and I drove up to the therapist. And I was like, I'm gonna win, I'm going to, he's going to tell me that I am so right. And at the end of this, I told him all of the of my list of woes. And he said, Well, in our relationship of therapy, this is what we're going to discuss.. And on the way home, I was like, Ah, I don't have time to have another relationship with someone, like, I need someone, I'm good enough with words that I can spin this any way. And I need someone who loves my mom, and who knows my mom, and who can sort of decode that. And I just had the strongest impression. Like, that's me. You're looking for me, I can do that for you. I love her, I know her. And I was like, okay, that works. And it was, you know, not as quick and easy process. But before I knew it, I the chasm had a bridge and I could reach for my mom, and I could love her. And I could say, This is, she flinches because of her experience. And that doesn't mean that she does not love me, but it was a huge sadness in me.

And so what Heavenly Father did for me was He provided clarity. for me. He provided an understanding and a comfort and a clarity. That meant that I could move on. And that matters. I mean, that was, it was huge, so.

Tammy 24:40

Wow, Anna, like I'm imagining this verse, 'Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of clarity.'

Anna 24:48

Yeah.

Tammy 24:50

And for Tam, it would be MY father, like, powerful, powerful verse now to read that within the context of how we think about Him. So Thank you to both of you for sharing your experiences and your thoughts. That was beautiful. I love that Paul describes the Father. His, this Father for him in these words, especially after you think about his conversion, being imprisoned. I mean, he knows firsthand that he has a God of mercies and a God of comfort for his own experience. And I think that's how we define who God is to us based on our experiences. So thank you for sharing that. Well, something that is so incredible about these titles is that his merciful and comforting God, he has a goal for us in mind, and we're going to discuss what that goal is in the next segment.

Segment 3 25:36

.....

Tammy 25:46

So you two, I gave you this question a long time ahead, because I really wanted to know what you think about this. I really do. So here's the question: How can the words 'trials and blessings' go together? And can they coincide without platitudes? There you go. There's the caveat, no platitudes allowed.

Anna 26:08

Done. I'm not a fan of platitudes.

Tammy 26:11

I knew you weren't. K, if anyone's wondering, a platitude is "bloom where you're planted," or

Anna 26:18

"It'll all be for your good."

Tammy 26:20

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Anna 26:21

Yeah, Um, it's basically what people say to you when they don't know what to say to you. If you experienced a trauma, you could probably fill a volume of platitudes that people have said to you. So I sort of, I have a hard time with like, "it all equals out." Because I think there's some pain that doesn't equal, I think there's some pain that I think, I think it can So in my experience, llke let's say, my brother called me because it was the 10 year anniversary of his wife's death. And I was looking, thinking back in the 10 years, and there have been so many blessings, like really tangible, beautiful blessings. So much insight, so much grace and mercy that he has experienced that I have been really intimate with.

And so I think there are blessings to be had in trials. But I don't know that every trial is a blessing. I think you, like if my brother could have his wife back and give up everything that he knew, that, you know, that's a good question. So I, I have a hard time when people are like, Well, it all evens out, you know, it's all for your good, it's all you know, no pain is wasted. And I see people sitting on their pain for decades. They just, they nurse it, they love it, they keep it alive, they, and I definitely think that that's not using the Atonement to the best of its ability.

Tammy 28:10

I think what you said is a very profound thought when you said not every trial is a blessing, but there are blessings in every trial. Yes, that's what I got out of what you said. That's really deep.

Anna 28:24

So there is this key. It's in 2 Corinthians 1:4. And it says, "Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort werewith we ourselves are comforted of God." Which, you are going to go through gut-wrenchingly horrible, hard things. And it may take some time to get to the place where you can use that to help other people. But I think that's the goal. The goal is that through Christ, you can find grace in your sadness. And the sadness doesn't always go away. But the grace sort of enlarges your capacity to love and to appreciate and to have compassion for other people. And that is a blessing.

Tammy 29:20

Yes. Wow. That's an interesting blessing - the ability then for you to comfort someone going through the same thing. I love verse 4, I'm so glad you read that.

Tammy C 29:28

Just a little bit on on trials being blessings. I, just a little experience and this is a whole different layer to trials and experience. But not too long ago, we had, there was a girls' trip, and you know how important girls' trips are. And we had planned it for a year. A whole year. And this was coming up on a Tuesday night, we were leaving on Wednesday. My husband says, "I have this pain in my stomach" and I'm like, No you don't. You're fine. What did you eat, what did I serve? You know? And he kept on saying it's bad. It's really bad. And I just said, Well, do you want me to take you to the hospital? Because I know he will not go to the hospital. He is one of those. Just I, nope, I'm tough, I don't have to go. Finally after a little while, he said, Yes. And I was shocked.

So we go to the hospital. There we are in that emergency room and they're telling him no, yes, yeah, yeah. You need surgery, it's gallbladder. So he, they take him in and admit him. And by the way, this is the only time in his whole life, in his whole life he's ever been in the hospital. I, I've had babies, he has not been. And so I'm thinking, That's interesting - the night before this big trip. So he says to me, you know,

Anna 30:48

He did it on purpose, Tammy. Yeah.

Tammy C 30:51

you can still go on your trip. I know it's really important to you, so I'll be just fine. And I'm looking at him like, Uh huh. Yeah, sure. So I call, you know, I just send a text to my friends and said, You know, I'm sorry, but I will not be at the airport. So I felt, I feel bad about that. But, of course, I knew where I wanted to be. And I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have enjoyed the girls' trip, even if he had insisted on me going, which he did. But I said no. Anyway, it wasn't until a few days later, which I had no problem being with him. So this is not really a trial. Do you understand? It's kind of an idea. But a few days later, I was thinking, isn't that interesting, that timing? And I don't know about the rest of you, but my husband has this dual mantra, which he says, Your friends mean so much more to you than I do. And I'm, How do you get that idea? How in the world do you get that idea? Because I love him, of course, more than, he means more to me than my friends do.

And I thought, it just came to me, that was a privilege for you. That was an absolute privilege for you to have that time. It wasn't your timing, you wouldn't have asked for it, you wouldn't have done it that way. But the timing was absolutely perfect. Because you showed him really where your heart is. Sometimes I feel like in our trials, the timing - doesn't it seem like the timing sometimes it's so crazy? You think how could this trial come at THIS time? At this time when my plate is so full. I don't even have, I can't fill t on top. And then you still have this trail. And you look at it and you think, You know what? If Godhood requires me to show Heavenly Father that no matter what, this is a privilege for me to show Him in this deep, dark hour,that my heart is real, I meant it. And I didn't just say it, I meant it. And I will show it because this is the time when the test get really tough. This is the final This is not just a quick, this is the final. And in a final I can do it. Then hey. We have showed Him that we, our heart is with Him.

Tammy 33:03

You passed the final.

Tammy C 33:05

The final is yours.

Tammy 33:07

Wow. And you're right, Tammy, it did add a whole new layer to this idea of trials and blessings and timing. So thank you, Tammy. Let's jump back into 2 Corinthians then. Let's read some verses about trials and blessings. We're going to do a "how our trials can be blessings scripture chain." You know I love a scripture chain. So the first reference is going to be 2 Corinthians chapter one; bracket off verses 4-7. And Anna did a great job reading verse 4. Anna, will you continue to read for us verses 5, 6, and 7, and then I'll give you the reference to put to the outside of this.

Anna 33:40

"For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth in Christ. And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation ,which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation. And our hope of you is steadfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of the sufferings, so shall ye be also of the consolation."

Tammy 34:13

Thank you. To the outside of that let's put 2 Corinthians 4:6-10. And we're going to turn there, 4:6-10, and we're going to read what Paul teaches about trials and blessings here. And Tammy, can you read those verses for us.

Tammy C 34:30

Yes, in fact, 6 and 7 are the other ones I marked in my scriptures. So here I am. I love these.

Tammy 34:36

Perfect

Tammy C 34:37

"For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us. We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed.; we are perplexed, but not in despair. Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed; Always bearing about in the body and the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body."

Tammy 35:15

Why did you have those marked?

Tammy C 35:18

I had 6 and 7 marked because He shines out of darkness. And I love

Anna 35:26

so good.

Tammy C 35:27

the shining out of darkness, and I have felt Him shining out of my darkest hours, and I have had those dark hours. And I am so grateful for them really, because those dark hours gave me an understanding that yes, I can make it through. I can't do this alone.

Tammy 35:48

Well, and in verse 7 when it says, "But we have this treasure in earthen vessels," earthen vessels is, is the meaning of those words is our bodies. We have this treasure in our bodies, that the excellency of power may be of God and not of us. And then verse 8, I mean, I wonder how many people related to this. "We are troubled on every side. Not distressed, we are perplexed, but not in despair; persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed." Going back to what you said Tammy, because of the light, the knowledge of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Let's do another one. To the outside of those verses put 17 and 18. And Anna, can you read those for us please.

Anna 36:24

"For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory, While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seenz; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal."

Tammy 36:43

And I want you to tell me, how do those two verses work into an emotional resilience discussion? How could you use those in a class?

Anna 36:51

Well, we did; we talked about, we, it's perspective, you know. Like, we get stuck in our earthen vessels all the time where we're so obsessed with what's going on externally. And this idea that "our light affliction," which light can be the weight or the shine, like it kind of works both ways, "which is but for a moment, worketh for us far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory." So there are pains that are short. I got a speeding ticket, that's the worst, I'm super mad about that. And there are pains that are long, like, I can't get along with my husband. And I think for us, we equate those as two totally separate things. But Heavenly Father is like, this is, it's far more important for the eternal weight of glory, like, have a little bit of perspective. Instead of getting stuck in the weeds, by a little bit, you'll feel better.

Tammy 37:59

I like that. I like that a lot. Wow.

Tammy C 38:03

Don't you think throughout these, these chapters, Paul seems to continually revert back to s'een or unseen.' And those things he uses all the time, different ways he approaches that those words, but basically, that's what he's saying is we cannot. And don't you think in our time, we're really confronting people who are demanding seeing? That's not the way Heavenly father works. It's just not. And we have to have unseen.

Anna 38:36

Yeah. My sister-in-law's father is lovely. And he always used to say, The pre-existence was a test of our logic. And we all passed. But this is a test of our faith. And faith by its nature is something that you can't see. But we are obsessed with everything that you, that we can see. We're constantly looking for the evidence when really the evidence should be in our hearts. It should be what you feel.

Tammy 39:06

The fleshy tables.

Anna 39:07

Yep.

Tammy 39:08

Boy, I'm writing so much done. Tammy, I like how you said we have to have unseen, that's just part of this life and it goes beautifully into yours, Anna. It's a test of logic versus a test of faith. You're right. This is the test of faith. Well, let's put one more scripture reference to the outside of these verses. We'll conclude our Scripture chain with 2 Corinthians 7:4-7. And here's what Paul had to say more on trials and blessings. Okay, here we go. Chapter 7:4-7. I'll read that.

"Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my glory of you: I am filled with comfort, I am exceeding joyful in all our tribulation." I mean, right there exceeding joyful in all our tribulation. WHAT? "For, when we were come into Macedonia, our flesh had no rest, but we were troubled on every side; without were fightings, within were fears. Nevertheless God, that comforteth those that are cast down, comforted us by the coming of Titus; And not by his coming only, but by the constellation werewith he was comforted in you, when he told us your earnest desire, your mourning, your fervent mind toward me; so that I rejoiced the more. For though I made you sorry with a letter, I do not repent: (or regret) "though I did repent: for I perceive that the same epistle that made you sorry, though it were for about a season."

Like it's not gonna last. But that first part, I'm exceedingly joyful in all your tribulation. I'm glad it's been hard for you. I'm really happy about that. I think that the Lord because,again, going through emotional resilience, when we go through trials and tribulations, the goal hopefully is for us to turn towards what?

Anna 40:55

Well, that is your only option. You just can't, you just can't solve it by yourself. Right? You have to turn towards Christ, you have to loop Him in. And once you do, then you can begin to find peace, so, I think that's really great.

Tammy 41:13

Really great. So thank you. Well, thank you, both of you for your comments, and your thoughts. Your insights have been so great on this idea, especially with your background of emotional resilience, because I feel like everything you're saying is coming from the classes that you've taught. And it's really helpful for us to be reminded of what this is all about. I can't believe how much I just wrote down in this segment. So thank you for everything that you just taught us about this 'trials and blessings without platitudes.' That was perfect. So in the next segment, we get to discuss the One who makes it possible for us to triumph in our trials, which is what Paul wants us to do. We'll do that next.

Segment 4 41:47

.....

Tammy 41:57

Ah, okay. So I have to tell you, these next four verses, ladies, they totally speak to my soul. Because I don't know if you no this about me, I have a touch of the ADD, or the ADHD, I'm not sure, self-diagnosed. Here's what I'm gonna tell you. Imagine on your computer screen, having like 50 tabs open. That's my brain. I have so many tabs open at the exact same time, I'm all over the place. And da-da-da-da-da-da, I'm trying to get so many things done. And the reason why I'm telling you this is because I think that's kind of maybe how Paul operates, because the many scholars are saying they indicate that Paul digresses from his narrative. Like he's talking, talking, talking, then all of a sudden he's like, You know what?

2 Corinthians, go to 2 Corinthians 2:14-17. Like he's teaching, he's preaching, he's telling them everything they need to do, and then he stops. And here's where he digresses. And it's the greatest digression, I think in all of Scripture history. It speaks to my heart, because I would have one thing on my mind, and I'm gonna stop, and go, You know what, let me just tell you this instead. So let's read his digression and discuss it. It's in 2 Corinthians 2:14-17. And we'll each take a verse, we'll go Anna, Tammy, and then me.

Anna 43:07

"Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place."

Tammy C 43:18

"For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:

Tammy 43:29

"To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things.?

Anna 43:38

"For we are not as many, which corrupts the Word of God: but of as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ,"

Tammy 43:48

Okay, for those of you listening, go back through and highlight all the times he says the word 'savour'. What does the word savour mean to you two? How would you define that word?

Anna 43:58

The 'savour' for me, indicates time. I have pleasure in a lot of things but I think we're all really busy. The savour means that you've stopped. So I'm thinking of things that make me pause, things that make me ,make me sit for a minute. And usually it's with gratitude or awe. That's what savour means to me.

Tammy 44:28

I'm writing this down. All right. What about you, Tammy? What does the word savour mean to you? How would you define that?

Tammy C 44:37

Well, savour for me is so many things, but I kind of looked it up because I thought, wow. What does this really mean? And I think that it's kind of a taste or a smell. And the thing that is crazy for me is that Paul, in the, our scriptures, we use all the senses, right? These prophets, these, our Savior uses all the senses when they speak, of when they try to get us to feel and to have emotion for the subject And he uses savour and he's one of the only ones I know, I've seen that uses this word, and I love the word so much because it adds a whole different layer to the imagery. Because when I think of something that tastes or smells beautiful. I don't know about you, but my, when I go to Disneyland, I have to do the ride over California. I don't care if I do anything else, because of the smell of the orange groves. It just slays me that they have the actual smell of the orange groves and that's one of my favorite smells. So I really, I really, really love that smell. And he's saying is there's a sweet smell.

And I think, I don't know about you, but in, at Christmastime when there're just Paperwhites, have you ever brought them into your house, the real ones? I put them in my home and I walked in the kitchen and thought, What the heck? It smells terrible in here. What is it? And it's Paperwhites. And sometimes people are like that. Sometimes Paperwhites are the most beautiful flower we've ever seen, but don't bring them into your life. Don't bring them in the kitchen. They don't smell good. And so I think

Anna 46:16

They're deceiving.

Tammy 46:16

They ARE deceiving.

Tammy C 46:18

They are deceiving. There are people who are deceiving. I love Paperwhites no matter what; I just use the fake ones. But I really feel like he is trying to get us to understand just the real, the reality of these verses, that we should taste and smell them. I and loved it.

Tammy 46:39

I absolutely did too. It's beautiful because it's this, it's like Paul is teaching. He digresses because all of a sudden he just breaks out in this spontaneous praise of gratitude for Christ's triumph over sin and death. And that's what I love about verse 15. I want us to look at this again. You are right, Tammy. The word 'savour' in Greek actually means, the word means 'a perfume', like a smell. Now when I think of savour, I think of something I'm eating, like I'm a foodie. So, in fact, my favorite way to describe savour, what I immediately thought of is was my friend, Holly. She's my favorite friend to eat with, because when she eats something that's good, she eats it. And she, It's like she uses every tastebud in her mouth. And then she'll say, "Oh, this is so divine." It's just my favorite. So do you, and she uses the word divine to describe a piece of something she ate, you know, it's good. And that's kind of always my goal when I make something for her, is it divine? Like I love that she describes - it's so divine. Like she savours, just this, and so the idea of smelling something, tasting it, using all your senses, right?

We go to verse 15. "For we are" - all of us right now, every person listening, "we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ." Like the beauty of that makes me feel so loved. A sweet savour. Not a distasteful savour. I mean, think right there, because the moment we sin, Satan wants us to go, 'Well, God doesn't love you anymore. And you're disgusting. And you stink, and you're foul.' And right here, No, you are "a sweet savour of Christ in them that are saved, and in them that perish." Now, that perish doesn't mean just a physical death. It's in them that are saved for the Atonement of Jesus Christ and even those who aren't. You're still a sweet savour. You still have time to figure it out, you are still so, so loved. And it goes back: You're so divine. You're just so.... I'm just imagining God and Christ saying that about us. "Oh, how divine," right? Even all of our stupidness. I still think They're like, 'You're so divine.' Tell me your thoughts. What are you thinking? I love your facial expressions.

Anna 48:53

I, well, when I was thinking about like things that make me pause, things that I want to savour or spend more time with. I was thinking about how I have those like memories that pop up on my phone, and I see those tiny baby chubby faces of those tiny children who never soil diapers and never make messes, but they're just frozen in that one moment. And I just, oh, it's that moment of savour, where I'm just like, Oh my gosh. I just love that tiny human in that moment. You're just like, so that's what I thought. I was like, oh, it's like we pop up on God's feed. And He's like, Ah, oh my gosh. Tammy's all, oh, isn't she so great! You know, I just thought it was so great that we're so

Tammy C 49:33

different, and He doesn't, it's not outcome-based. It's not like, Oh, she's really great because look at all those great things, you know. Like I, it's just, I just enjoy you. I just think it's so good.

Tammy 49:45

Ooh, I love that you said it's not outcome-based. That's, you're right. It's not. Like, They just love us.

Anna 49:52

And I love that part that he embeds it that we are a sweet savour of Christ, so that Christ is embedded around and part of us, but that's part of the sweetness.

Tammy 50:06

Yes, absolutely. Jump in Tam.

Tammy C 50:10

Um, I think savour in the things that we are speaking of make us pause. Anytime there's something phenomenal that you smell, or of something phenomenal that you taste, just like your friend, I think we have to pause. I think if we don't, we're missing out on what life really is. And I love that he's asking us to pause here, because he's thinking of our Savior Jesus Christ. And he's also saying savour. I mean, he does say death unto death, but he also promises savour of life unto life in verse 16. Life unto life. He's saying savour this, think about this for a second, pause. Because if you have a life, and you live it well, it's unto life.

Tammy 50:55

Um-hmm.

Anna 50:55

And I love that piece of the end where he's like, "For we're not as many, which corrupt the word." Like, it's just like, let me just get this out of here. Let me just put this out here, there aren't that many of us. However, you know.

Tammy 51:12

That is so great. Like there's far more people that are wicked than us.

Anna 51:15

I mean, we're definitely the minority. However, you know, in the sight of God, be we in Christ. So good,

Tammy 51:24

Well, I was recently struck with verse 14. And we didn't even talk about that. But I have to just share this one experience. Because I'm just now remembering this. So it says, "Now thanks be unto God, which always causes us to triumph in Christ," yes. "and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place." Now, I thought about this "in every place," because I recently had an experience, that after it happened, this verse popped into my mind that this savour of His knowledge by us in every place, it literally happened in the most unexpected situation.

So a couple of weeks ago, I was invited to be a participant in this sort of Home FSY for special needs kids. And just a little shout out to Aliah Smith Boyd who planned this incredible youth conference, and her son Wilson. Hey, bud. It was so good to see you on the Zoom. And one of the things that I did, was I talked about how everyone has a spiritual gift, and how that spiritual gift makes you different. And I reached out to all of the parents of these children. I said, could you tell me what you think their spiritual gift is. And they sent back the most beautiful messages about what they think their child has, it was beautiful. From visitation of angels, to the gift of giving, and the gift of accepting. I mean, it was awesome.

Well, what I did is I took a cup filled with vinegar, and then I have a spoon. And this is a classic, like sharing time Primary activity. I stirred a plain spoon of baking soda into the clear cup of vinegar, and it just foamed up white. Then I taught that our Heavenly Parents never intended for everyone to be the same. So they gave each of us spiritual gifts to make us different and unique. And we can use those gifts to add life and color to Christ'sChurch. So, I took a spoon and told them what my spiritual gift was. And as I stirred, I had a dot of purple food coloring under the baking soda, and then it foamed up purple. It was so cute. They were all mesmerized, like it was the greatest little trick. So then I called out one of the kids and I said, Okay, where is so and so? So where's Emily? I said, Emily, here's what your mom said your spiritual gift is and I picked up a spoon, and I stirred it and it foamed up. And she was like, Oh, that's beautiful. Right? So I'm doing it for these kids.

And then I said to this one boy, "Okay, Jordan, here's your spoon." And he goes, Please be green. Please be green. It's my favorite color. And I'm like, Oh, dear. There's like 10 spoons here. There's no way that spoon's, and there's so many different colors. This is going to be an epic fail. My heart is racing. So my daughter who was helping me, she just grabbed a spoon and stuck it in, and wouldn't you know: it was green! And he just was so excited.

And then I grabbed another spoon and stirred and it was blue. And the boy who I called out, Blue's my favorite color. And then I did another one for a girl. And it was pink. And she yelled out, Pink's my favorite color. And I just started sobbing because I thought, in every place, He savours every one of us, and He knows us. Like it, the knowledge of us and Him exists everywhere. And that was just a simple little reminder. And I like, like things like that. I know it might be like, Oh, you were lucky. Yeah, I don't think so. I really think that Heavenly Father was like, this boy needs to see that the foam's gonna turn green.

Anna 54:40

Yeah.

Tammy 54:41

And if he can do that, for me, in that little moment, think of what he does for us every single day. And when we have bigger trials and bigger problems and we want to know that we're being savoured, yeah. He, I love how you said, Tammy and Anna, He takes the time to savour us.

Anna 54:56

Yeah. My son had Cancer and he was young. And the thing about cancer is it just doesn't negotiate. Like, first it's like you have to do this or you die. The right side will do this. And then they're like, oh, no, I you have to do this, or you die. So you just sort of like, get into this pattern of secession. You just, Okay, we'll do that. So he had to do three rounds of chemo and it was in the Fall in, he was in the second round of chemo, which, you know, chemo was like a race: does the chemo kill you, or does the cancer kill you? It's sort of like neck and neck, they're just not quite sure who's gonna win.

And so I was trying to juggle all the balls. And it was that nearing the end of the second round of chemo, and he was just like racked. I mean, the hair was long gone but he would like, stomach bile was leaking out his mouth. And he, you know, he was he was racked. And I'm still trying to be like, it's okay, we can, you know, I'm trying to, but I'm on empty. I just can't. I can't, I can't. And I'm driving home. And his regimen was one week for eight hours a day in the chemo lab, and then two weeks of recovery. So the days were really long.

So I'm coming home and I'm thinking, Okay, you've got to do this, and you've got to do this, and you've got to do this. And I start having this conversation with Heavenly Father and then like, You know what would make this chemo and this cancer really way better, is a really juicy brownie that had like, you know, nuts and carmel. Like some just extravagantly fantastic brownie. And I'm sort of like giggling to myself, because here's my kid in the back is racked. And I'm you know, like that's hilarious that that's gonna help anything.

So I get home and on my portch is that brownie. And it occurred to me that at some point during the day, someone had the impression, Go get her this specific brownie. And I'm sure they thought that is not going to solve any of the horrible thing that she's going through. That's, that's dumb. That's not going to help anything. But they did it anyway. And when I opened the brownie, I was like, I am a sweet savour. I matter. He heard me and not only did He hear me, but He knew that I was going to ask. And He knew hours before when I was sitting in the chemo lab, He knew that this moment was gonna come. And I would need comfirmation that He was with me.

Tammy C 57:48

In that moment, it was your favorite color Anna.

Anna 57:50

It was my favorite color. Yep, it was my favorite color.

Tammy 57:54

I'm sobbing, there couldn't be a stronger testimony of being savoured in every place than that one. Thank you, Anna. That was brilliant. Beautiful. Oh, I love these verses. Thank you, Paul, for digressing. Thank you for going off on a tangent right here because we needed that tangent. That was such a great discussion. So thank you. Okay, so we are going to move on to more goodness that is found in all these chapters. And we'll do that in the next segment.

Segment 5 58:20

.....

Tammy 58:31

Let's turn to 2 Corinthians chapter3, and we're just going to mark verse 17. Here we go. Verse 17. And Tammy, will you read that for us.

Tammy C 58:41

Honored. "Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty."

Tammy 58:49

Okay. Now Tammy, I'm gonna ask you to say something, but real quick, cross out the word 'that' where it says, "Now the Lord is that Spirit", cross it out, because actually in Greek it is the word THE. Now the Lord is THE Spirit. And where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." Why are you, why did you end it like that? Why did you end the word Liberty so strong?

Tammy C 59:12

Because I love my country. And I feel so grateful for the liberty we have and I am grateful for the liberty that is all over the world. I, when I thought of liberty when I read this, I thought if I were to add something to make/create liberty for me, it's truth. And I think the these verses denote that. I think without truth, liberty is very limited. You have to know what your what truth is, and then have the liberty to act on that truth. And when we have those two things together, why? The United States, the other countries who who have those things together, you really can make a difference. You really can't disguise.

Tammy 1:00:03

I like how you just brought the word truth. I'm gonna hang on to that for a second. I like that truth. If you know the truth, you can have liberty. Anna, what are your thoughts about the word Liberty? Do you have, how would you describe liberty or define it?

Anna 1:00:14

Well, I think that's the goal. It's to me, not why the Atonement is so highly sought after. That's why Christ, because then we're freed from our sins, we're freed from all the ways that we trip ourselves up and trip other people up in all the injuries, all the mess. That is the whole point of the emotional resilience is that you have liberty, that you are not weighted down,that you are not burdened by your past relationships, past thoughts, past deeds, past whatever. That you can look forward with optimism instead of back with hopelessness.

Tammy 1:00:57

You struck something with me, Anna, when you talked about that. And connect for me this idea of how truth sets us free. How truth, because you said not to let things in our past weigh us down. I mean, how do you really do that? How can you encourage someone in this emotion resiliency class to grab on to liberty? It seems so hard.

Anna 1:01:19

Well, I think people get in pattern. Like people get rewards, they do things because they're getting rewarded. And I think, like when we're in our 20s, and we have our tiny babies. And the narrative between all of us is, Oh my gosh, this kid was up all night. And this kid had four poopy diapers, and this kid like, we sort of have this laundry list of battle scars. And then some people get stuck in a place. And the reward is they get to relive the circle of sadness. But it takes a different momentum to kind of push you out so that you can see, you can look out. I mean, I think that's the problem with being sort of emotionally challenged, it's you're looking down, you're looking inward. And then liberty allows you to look up and see, see more and see different.

Tammy 1:02:22

How do we do that with Christ? How would you explain that to someone Tammy?

Tammy C 1:02:26

Um, He is the reason we have them, right? Obviously, He gives us all of our possibilities. I don't know how, in fact, you may have to strike what I said before because we're in a world where the whole world can listen to this podcast, it's not just the United States. But I loved something that Benjamin Franklin said, which I'm going to the United States again, I hope that's okay. He said "Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters." Isn't that interesting? In other words, a lot of times people think that following our Savior, Jesus Christ, following God is limiting. It takes away their liberty. To me, it only frees us. It only makes us capable, to become what we can become without masters. We can have victory when we have true libert, when we know who we can be and when we try to become who we can become. That's what our Savior wants for us. And for me, that is liberty.

Tammy 1:02:26

Um-hmm. Let me ask you this. What would you suggest to someone who says to you, But what do I ask for then? If I get on my knees and I pray to Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, what do I ask for to obtain this liberty, this emotional liberty?

Anna 1:04:00

So I wrestled with that, like I think I even asked a bishop. Like, everyone says Atonement, Atonement, Atonement, but what is that? It's like a wand that I'm just gonna flick at my problem and then the problem's gonna go away. Is that like a dance I do? Like, what does that entail? What does that mean? How do I, what are the steps? Give me a list. I just need a list.

Tammy 1:04:22

Yeah, if there's, do you have like a list of scriptures I can read and then a box that I can check off where I pray 4 times a day, Fast once,

Anna 1:04:26

Yeah. Or, like, are there deeds, are there, you know, like what is, tell me what the process is. And I think the reason that it's sort of a nebulous answer is because it really is just about you. And I think the first step is wanting help. I think the first step is like, that was when I was like I can't do this. I have spent way too much time torturing everyone around me and myself included, and I can't do this by myself. So I think the first step is submission. Is, I know that I don't have this in me to solve. And I don't have the answer. And I think the next step is, first ask for help. And then I think individually you will get, have this conversation or whatever. Like, it's tailor-made. It's your atonement. It's, it's special for you. So I don't know if I can say, how do you use that? But I know that I can say, when you get to the place where you know you can't do it by yourself and you fall to your knees and you start asking, then the answers start coming.

Tammy 1:04:31

Wow. Yeah. I felt that when you said it. Like the spirit was so strong just then that when you said "the submission". I'm tired of making everyone around me miserable, and myself, and I can't do this on my own.Those are great words to start out with. And that, and I like how you said the Atonement - it IS individual, it is. It's probably the only time it really can be about you. And you are allowed to be selfish with the Atonement. Use it. It's there. Right?

Anna 1:06:11

Yeah, it will be specific to what your needs are. And from the bottom of my soul, it works.

Tammy 1:06:22

You've used it.

Anna 1:06:22

So trust that, trust the process.

Tammy 1:06:27

I believe you. I'm going to do it. I'm writing really big notes right here. I believe. Anna, thank you. This is so good. I feel like today's a therapy session for me. You can't even believe, Anna.

Tammy C 1:06:43

For Tammy and I, Ann.

Tammy 1:06:44

Yeah. It's exactly. Wow, that was so good.

Tammy C 1:06:50

That was really good.

Tammy 1:06:52

I mean, I have the question. And I sent it to you, though, because you said from firsthand experience, but I did ask this question. How has Jesus liberated you? Is there anything else you want to say on that? Or Tammy? Do you have a story to share? How has Jesus liberated you?

Tammy C 1:07:10

Ah. I just, you know, when Anna said trust the process, I feel like, you know, I've been around the block enough to realize that trusting the process is real. And in my liberating moments have come when least expected sometimes. When I didn't think that I had the answer, but I did and it came clear. And I thought, Oh, really? That's it? That's so simple. Yeah. I mean, that's what the answer is. And for me, that's, that IS liberating, when I can, when I can trust, when I can trust. That's liberating.

And I think that first, like, it's hard to, to sort of crack the ceiling of the Atonement, where you're like, is this real? Is this for me? Is this, can I use that? Can I use it anytime? Is it only on Sundays? Is it only if I'm in my church clothes? I'm like, you know, like, so there's that moment when you approach and you're just like, what does this mean? And how does that work? And then once you sort of push through, and you kind of get into it, then you're, then you know. Now I find myself like, ah, Oh my gosh, I did it again. How, is that possible? Like I'm so old to be making the same, I call it like, my favorite sins, you know. Like, oh, my gosh, could you just. And then it becomes easier to sort of, you know, have the backtracking beepers come on. You go, okay, that's what we need to do.

Tammy 1:08:49

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Tammy C 1:08:51

Does liberty mean something different to you, Tammy?

Tammy 1:08:54

You know, when I read this verse right here, "Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." And immediately I thought of, for me in my life, you know, looking back at the stupid things I did when I was a teenager, and even younger, like, so stupid, just so stupid. And I remember reaching a point where I'm like, Why do I keep doing this? Like, this is so not me. And there was this liberating moment where even the spirit was like, knock it off. You know, like, I love how the spirit talks to me. Like, get it together, Tam, I need you to do bigger and better things. And this is not going to get you there. So you have a choice to make.

And that in that moment in my life was very liberating because I had the choice. And I love that option to having power over my decisions. And I just decided right then, I'm like, Okay, I'm done. I'm done. But it wasn't easy. And it required effort on my part and going to see my bishop and working through repentance and actually it was my mission president. I've shared that repentance story so many times where I had to, you know, empty out my bucket of yuck to my mission president because I was terrified to tell my bishop because I thought for sure he'd call my parents and I'd get grounded. And Idid not want to be grounded. So I just kept stuffing my sack a yuck all the way into the MTC, into my mission. And then my mission president had a thing called "kick a can around the block." And that means if there's not anything you've taken care of, you better. And I had to call him at seven in the morning because I could no longer serve my mission. I'd been out for two weeks, and I needed to be liberated. I needed to get rid of that sack of yuck that I'd been carrying all of those years.

And I just, that was my mission where the Spirit's like, get it together. There's so much more you could be doing. And right now you're limited because you carried that sack of sin far too long. And so I'll never forget that moment when I just waah, everything to my mission president. And it's funny, because he's like, Okay, we walked around the block, and we got back to the driveway. And he said, is that everything? It's not and we had to go around again. And then he's like, is that everything? Totally, it was a 2-blocker. He's like, is that everything? And I'm like, it's everything. And I'm sobbing. I'm sobbing, and he looks at me, and he's like, Yeah, you're forgiven. Now get to work.

Anna 1:11:11

Oh, my gosh.

Tammy 1:11:12

And like from my head to my toes I felt liberated, like so much liberty that I haven't, I mean, I, that's a long time ago. I'm 51 and I have not forgotten that feeling. It was so real in the fleshy tables of my heart right there written on my heart, 'You are forgiven. Don't do that stupid stuff again.' And I was able to. That's what liberty did for me, like, feeling liberated and knowing I'm never doing that again. That was powerful. But again, I love how Anna, you said, because now I'm thinking, but the mists of darkness are darker than I ever imagined. And I don't think we were really prepared for that up there. It was a decision of logic. And here is a decision of faith. And that is hard.

Anna 1:11:52

It is hard.

Tammy 1:11:53

Trusting in the process, trusting that we are savoured by the Lord. And so yeah, that's what liberty means to me. It's all that, well like when I learned the truth and I trusted the process. And I believed and, and it's so funny, I never repented because I thought the bishop would look at me and hate me every time he saw me. And then my mission president taught me the best verses of scripture are in the Doctrine and Covenants that if God doesn't remember your sins, neither does the person you told them to. And I have had every bishop, every mission president, every stake president confirm to me, Yep, that's true. We don't remember it. So just Satan has just scared us out of repenting.

Tammy C 1:12:28

Well, isn't it interesting that, that the apostle Paul talks about this because in his inception, we saw he was, he was chastising. He was really, really, really not kind to the Christians. And so here he had a past that even the Apostles said, Really? Really God? You want Paul? Because,

Tammy 1:12:51

You want THAT guy?

Tammy C 1:12:56

Don't even bring him to the front, because he's not a good guy, he's not. And yet Heavenly Father knew that it was Paul and, and this tells us that. Gosh, all of us can have liberty from our past. All of us have liberty from the things that are difficult from us. If Paul can, if ALMA can, if I can. You can.

Tammy 1:13:17

Tammy Hall can? You bet, anyone can. Well, this is just a perfect segue into the next segment, because we are going to talk about all things repentance, and two different types. So we'll do that coming up next.

Segment 6 1:13:29

.....

Tammy 1:13:41

All right. So here's what we need to know. One of Paul's purposes in writing his earlier letters to the Corinthians was to encourage certain individuals to repent. And so in his follow-up letter, Paul commended those who had corrected their sincere repentance. And then he taught about an essential part of repentance. And let's read about that in 2 Corinthians 7:8-11. Highlight these, these are scripture mastery scriptures. 2 Corinthians 7:8-11. We're gonna see what this essential part is. Tammy, will you please read those verses for us.

Tammy C 1:14:16

Sure. "For though I made you sorry with a letter, I do not repent," (Isn't that grim? Yeah, sorry. Oh, ) "I did repent,: for I perceive that the same epistle hath made you sorry, though it were but for a season. Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry,but that ye sorrowed to repentanc: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing." (not, kind of an interesting way to put it.) "But godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. For behold, this selfsame thing that ye sorrowed after a godly sword, what carefulness it wrought in you, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter."

Tammy 1:15:21

Now, that reminds me of my mission president, You are clear in this matter. Because I experienced what verse 10 talks about. We have two types of sorrows. We have godly sorrow, and then we have the sorrow of the world, which we call worldly sorrow. So I'm thinking back to my experience, I mean, I experienced worldly sorrow far too long. And that's what kept me from seeing my bishop. And it was the godly sorrow on my mission, that the Spirit was like, It's time, like, and I felt that. Like, oh, there's such a big difference between a godly sorrow and a worldly sorrow. Satan's the worst, just the worst when it comes to these two things.

So here's what I asked my guests to do ahead of time. And those of you with your journals, I want you to do this. You're going to create two columns in your study journal, or on any piece of paper by drawing a line down the middle of the page. You're going to write Godly Sorrow" at the top of one column, and "Worldly Sorrow" at the top of the other. And then I said, look back at verses 8-11, and tell me what Paul taught about the differences between godly and worldly sorrow. And what other differences did you come up with that we can add to the list? So let's start with our list, what did we learn about godly sorrow?

Anna 1:16:30

So in 11, it sort of starts to list after a godly sort. So it causes carefulness, clearing of yourself, indignation, fear, vehement desire, zeal, revenge, and then sort of an all things you have approved yourself to be clear in this matter. So godly sorrow. I think in my columns, godly sorrow, I have: it causes a change in you, you want it to be different as a result of godly sorrow. And worldly sorrow, you just sort of feel sorry you got caught. So in godly sorrow, you can sort of see the gap between where you are and what God sees you to be. And you're like, Oh, I should be more like that girl. That's, that's the Anna that I want to be. In worldly sorrow you feel like you're stuck in hell. You're like, it's hopeless, I'm never getting out. I'm, you know, your whole body is droopy and sad. But in, with godly sorrow you feel hope, you feel like I can get through this. I can get over this.

Tammy 1:17:49

Yeah.

Anna 1:17:49

And then worldly sorrow I think sometimes, I wrote in the column of worldly sorrow I wrote confusion. That sometimes with worldly sorrow we feel like we're the victims and the sorrow sort of happens in a place of impotence. And, and then, but with godly sorrow, there's clarity where you understand your part in it and you understand your path forward.

Tammy 1:18:13

Ooh. I like that you understand your path forward in godly sorrow. It almost seems like worldly sorrow there's no path forward.

Anna 1:18:20

You just wallow. Just

Tammy 1:18:21

yeah. wallow,

Anna 1:18:22

Keepfwallowing, keep wallowing. And godly sorrow is like, like what you said. I need you to be more than that. And worldly sorrow, Satan just traps you and says, This is who you are. And godly sorrow is like, no, no. That's not who you are. So go over there because that's who you are.

Tammy 1:18:41

It's almost the difference between like, godly sorrow you would put "I did something bad." But worldly sorrow is "I AM bad." Like, that's what the world wants you to think - you're so bad. And God's like, No you're not; you just did something bad,. so let's fix it.

Anna 1:18:49

Yeah. And here's how, like,

Tammy 1:18:58

Yeah, here's how

Anna 1:18:58

Yeah, it's not, it's not super horrible. It's, I'm not gonna cut your arms off. I'm not, you know, like it's, it's okay. The way forward is not as bad as sitting where you are. Don't sit on the tack. Go over there and fix it it.

Tammy 1:19:13

Don't sit on the tack. Well, that's good. What did you come up with Tammy?

Tammy C 1:19:17

Well, I kind of started back up a little bit further. Of sourse I put you know, in verse 9 - it's "sorrowed to repentance" is repentance is godly sorrow for me. But I wondered in verse 8 thing, tell me what you think when he says at the end of verse 8, "the epistle hath made you sorry, though it were but for a season." I wondered if that's a little bit worldly.

Anna 1:19:40

Yeah.

Tammy C 1:19:40

Cuz it's not only repenting for a season, is that really godly sorrow?

Anna 1:19:45

That's really good Tammy.

Tammy C 1:19:47

I don't know. But some of these to me, I, do you Tammy, what you think. Some of these to me were both sides. If you have a vehement desire, is it a vehement desire to not make people know what you actually did? Or is it a vehement desire to really, really change? And I think vehement desire can be beautiful if it's for change. And indignation, to me is worldly sorrow. Revenge, of course, you think of - "The Count of Monte Cristo" is one of my favorite pieces of literature - and to me, revenge in "The Count of Monte Cristo" is God's. it's His, not ours. Fear can work in both ways; if we fear God, if we fear men. Worldly or godly sorrow.

I thought that these verses really give you a moment to just really contemplate and think, what am I? What is my sorrow eally? And what does it look like? And when I'm done with this life, will my sorrow have meant for something or will it have been, you know? Like, we keep rehearsing 'fleshy tables.' It has to be written there if this sorrow is real. And I just think that he's asking, Can you have the zeal? Can you have the godly sorrow zeal? I love the verses because his imagery and his words are beautiful. There's a reason that Paul had success in his missionary journey.

Tammy 1:21:21

Yeah. I was struck with verse 9 when it says, "For ye were made sorry, after a Godly manner that ye might receive damage by us in nothing." The idea of like, godly sorrow isn't damaging. It's okay. God gets it. It's a part of a,,,, Worldly sorrow will make you feel like you're worth nothing. You're damaged goods. Sorry, Charlie. Now, this godly sorrow is like, No, you're not. Like, God loves you. He savours you. Let's just figure this out together.

Tammy C 1:21:50

And you know what, to me, that verse too kind of said, if you get called out on something, if somebody notices. Like if your mother or your sister or your friend, Anna or Tammy, notice something that you could correct, you take it in a wrong way? Or do you take it, if wasn't meant to hurt you. This is meant to help you. And sometimes I think we take constructive criticism by maybe even later to be a worldly sorrow. I'm sorry, because you think that way. But in other words, I didn't take it to elevate me, I took it to damage me.

Tammy 1:22:33

Ooh, that's awesome. Okay, let's do this. We're going to finish this segment with these last two quotes. As I read them, I want you just to add to your list, okay? And then I'm gonna see what you wrote on your list for godly sorrow, worldly sorrow. Here we go. The first quote is by Elder D. Chad Richardson, quorum of the 70. Iin 2007 he said this: "A main difference between godly sorrow and worldly sorrow is their source. Worldly sorrow is promoted by Satan. It is the sorrow being caught, of not being able to continue sinning, or of turning against oneself with self loathing or disdain. Godly sorrow, on the other hand, is sorrow given as a gift from God, to those who are willing to receive it. Godly sorrow leads us to a full recognition of the magnitude of our sins, but with the knowledge that we can become free of them."

And then here's what Elder Uchtdorf says in 2013 General Conference. "Godly sorrow inspires change and hope through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Worldly sorrow pulls us down, extinguishes hope, and persuades us to give in to further temptation. Godly sorrow leads to conversion and a change of heart. It causes us to hate sin and love goodness. It encourages us to stand up and walk in the light of Christ's love. True Repentance is about transformation, not torture or torment. Yes, heartfelt regret and true remorse for disobedience are often painful and very important steps in the sacred process of repentance. But when guilt leads to self loathing, or prevents us from rising up again, it is impeding rather than promoting our repentance." Okay. I'm just curious, what did you add to your list? What stood out to you?

Anna 1:24:16

The thing that's not for me was the transformation part. Because I think some of us are like, "Bippity, boppity, boo!" and I'm done. But Heavenly Father is patient and He cares more about the end result than the process. So this, I love that bit about the damage, like, you know, I don't really care if you're sad now. If it makes you into this more amazing person, then that's my goal. My goal is the amazing person there. So sometimes I'll look at people like, in fact, people close to me who've sort of fallen into patterns of destruction. I'm like, I just felt close to you enough to wait for you to learn that lesson. I don't ,like as a mom, you know, I'm like, I don't. I want you to be done now. I want you to the learn the lesson and we're going to move on. You've got 15 minutes - go! But Heavenly Father's like, I mean, 'I can wait 50 years if that's how long it takes you to learn that lesson, because I care about the end result more than I care about this moment of discover.

Tammy 1:25:27

Well, I like that.

Tammy C 1:25:30

I liked when Elder Richardson said that godly sorrow was a gift. Did I write that, or anyone, was it there? I wrote that down. I thought that was pretty gamey.

Anna 1:25:44

A gift for teens.

Tammy 1:25:46

Yep.

Tammy C 1:25:47

Which presupposes you're not, the way you are now is not as good as you can be. Like, it's great and fabulous, but like it presupposes. So there's so much of it. That this family that we know, they're like, Well, you just be you. You're not, you're, you be you. And I turned to my kids one time, I'm like, no, no, no, don't be you. Be better than you. That's the whole point of the gospel. The gospel is, means, I can change and the billion dollar industry changes a billion dollar industry. And I can be stronger, I can be more beautiful, I can be like this. We're obsessed with change. And we sort of forget that this is the change: repentance and the Atonement. That's where the change comes from. And like permanent, long-lasting, comforting, better. You can be better. You can be that person that God wants you to be and that He sees in you.

Tammy 1:26:45

So good. So good.

Tammy C 1:26:50

That pit in your stomach.? It's a good thing if it gives you change; I hate the feeling I hate it. I have it more than I should. But it's a good thing.

Tammy 1:27:04

Well, I asked you this question. I don't know. It's pretty brave. But do either of you have a story you'd like to share where you have that feeling ,that pit in your stomach and it, where you had godly sorrow?

Anna 1:27:15

My weakness is words. Oh, it's my strength and my weakness. My mom used to call it my superpower. And she would say you have to use your powers for good not evil. But every so often something runs away from me and I, they,that can be a problem. And I, gosh, I feel it. And the only reason that pit is the, is the flag that goes up to me. Like that, Oh, my gosh, again. The flag goes up and you're like, Okay.I slid into that again. I knew I shouldn't. And then for me, it's just profuse apologies. Just cuz....So, that's maybe not what you're looking for. But I don't know, my particular.

Tammy C 1:28:06

Mine wasn't a specific, it's teasing. I mean, I have too many probably to mention. But when I have that, and I do, it's kind of my words too. I say some things that I just don't mean, and they come across way different than I actually intended them to. So sometimes I ask Heavenly Father, Help me with that. Not only so I change and I don't do it again, or do it less frequently. But sometimes in these quiet moments, I say to Heavenly Father, You know that thing I said to like my daughter? Could you erase it from her mind?

Anna 1:28:43

Could you just soften that, like, tell the parameters, just go a little bit slower?

Tammy C 1:28:49

Take it away, don't let it, please, please for them, help. them,,,,, I really think sometimes He helps me with that. I don't know, I haven't asked because I don't want to remind. But I really, really think that sometimes we need help in our repentance. And then I ask Him sometimes as a loving Father to just take it from people that I did something really dumb. And don't let 'em harbor on that because I don't want 'em on the couch someday to a therapist with my words in their mouth.

Tammy 1:29:19

Yeah. Well, and it just goes back to how we started that this, this loving, merciful Father of all comfort. He'll give that to us. That's what we get after we repent. He's just so merciful, and He is a Father of all comfort. So you're guaranteed that comfort feeling when you've repented. So thank you to both of you. Wow, that was such a great discussion today. I am so floored by how much I learned from both of you. It was awesome. I have so many notes. So just take a minute. Gather your thoughts and what is your takeaway from your study of 2 Corinthians 1-7. Is there anything that struck you from our discussion today or reading?

Anna 1:29:58

They're just big shoes to fill. Like Paul just sets up such great expectation and such great comfort. It's the perfect. I was telling my kids, I was like, it's the perfect parenting paradigm where I have these expectations for you. But I super love you, and I super want to get you there. And sometimes that process is painful. And sometimes it's horrible, but it's worth doing and remembering that you individually matter to God, and I think it's a good starting place every day.

Tammy 1:30:45

So good. Great takeaway. What'd you come up with Tammy?

Tammy C 1:30:50

Well, I'm, gosh, I am with you. My notes are many and varied. I loved all the things that you said. I, both of you. I really appreciated being here today. But the one thing that that I have had experience with recently that just tinkled the bell, for a better way to say, you said something about too, chapter w, verse 14 "in every place." And I think that Paul is trying to tell us to look for our Savior in every place. And I look, the more I keep that in the front of my mind, the more I recognize it. Like you're saying, the green. Or even Anna the darkness, that you're talking about this, even darker than we think. Even that you can see God, and can you not? In every spectrum, where I look for Christ, and I liked that, in every place, look for Him. He's there.

Anna 1:32:00

Everywhere.

Tammy 1:32:01

Yeah, in the brownies, in all of it. That was, that was a really great discussion. I loved that. Thank you. Thanks for reminding us Tammy. Tammy, one of my favorite parts was when you said we have to have unseen. Like I've just never considered that before, because we live in a seeing world. We want to see everything. And you can get answers so quickly. And everything's so visual. And that hit me - we have to have unseen, that's part of just the faith and the testimony that we get. And then Anna, when you said we are the source of joy through the gospel of Jesus Christ; we have to be the source of joy for our children. That was so good. It gets, the two go to, are connected together: the Gospel Jesus Christ and joy, and we are that for our family. So, such, I mean so many good things, I've just kept writing in my scriptures. But thank you to both of you for coming so well prepared, and for paying the price to really contribute to this discussion. I think Paul is smiling, definitely smiling upon this discussion today. Because I feel like Paul's like, 'Yes, you get it. That's why I wrote it.'

Anna 1:33:06

Don't you kind of feel that? Like, you did it.

Tammy 1:33:08

So, thanks, ladies. You were awesome.

Anna 1:33:10

Thank you. For me, it was really fun.

Tammy C 1:33:12

You're very kind to include us in in such an intimate setting. It's a sweet thing. Thank you. It was great.

Tammy 1:33:21

MWAH, you're the best.

Anna 1:33:22

Thank you. Bye.

Tammy C 1:33:23

Thank you. Bye you guys.

Tammy 1:33:25

Oh, of course, I know, I know. I always say this, but I really want to know what you learned. I feel like that episode was just wow. I mean, I cannot believe how much I learned. Those women, they came so well prepared. Okay, if there's anything you're thinking after this or anything you want to share, just go to Facebook or Instagram. You can get to those links in our show notes which are at LDS living.com/sunday on Monday and just start typing what you've learned or what you want to share or what your experiences that you're having. Then at the end of the week, usually on a Saturday, we will post a question from this specific episode. So comment on that post that relates to this lesson and share your answer and your thoughts. And when you go to our show notes at LDS living.com/sunday On Monday, you will also find a complete transcript of this entire discussion as well as a gluein for this episode. So go check it out. Oh, and the references that we used.

The Sunday Monday Study Group is a Deseret Bookshelf Plus original and it's brought to you by LDS Living. It's written and hosted by me Tammy Uzelac Hall and today our incredible study group participants were Tammy Cutler and Anna Andrews. And you can find more information about my friends at LDS living.com/sunday on Monday. Our podcast is produced by Hailey Higham and Cole Wissinging, and me. It is edited by Hailey Higham and is recorded and mixed by Mix At Six Studios and our executive producer is Erin Hallstrom. Thanks for being here. We'll see you next week.

And please, please remember this: You are God's favorite and He savours you. He really does.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai