Tammy 0:00
Something that I am going through right now, and I have spent a lot of time thinking about, I feel like Satan has spun and is spinning at a very rapid very pace, a vicious lie which is this: that it's all about the here and now. That if our friends and our children, our spouse, parents, or any of our loved ones don't get it right 100% of the time in this life, they never will. And so what's the point? Well, I kind of feel like I've learned that the point is Jesus. That His crucifixion, resurrection was not in vain. And this week's discussion of 1st Corinthian chapters 14-16 is going to give us some answers and a whole lot of hope for any of us who have been misguided by this adversary's lie.
Tammy 0:43
Welcome to the Sunday on Monday study group, Deseret Bookshelf Plus original, brought to you by LDS Living where we take the Come, Follow Me lesson for the week and we really DIG INto the scriptures together. I'm your host, Tammy Uzelac Hall. Now if you're new to our study group we just want to make sure you know how to use this podcast, so follow the link in our description and it's going to explain how you can best use this podcast to enhance your Come, Follow Me study just like my friend and my guest's friend, Heidi Vogler. Hey, Heidi. Oh, you're going to love our guests today.
Tammy 1:10
Okay, so that's my favorite thing about our study group is that each week we're joind by two of my friends, it's always a little bit different, and today we've got - oh this is so fun - we've got Ben Schilaty. Hi, Ben.
Ben Schilaty 1:19
Hello, happy to be here.
Tammy 1:21
Oh, we're happy to have you here. And how exited are we to introduce the next guest, Levi Hepry. Hello Levi.
Tammy 1:27
Hello, hello. Great to be here.
Tammy 33:46
OH. K, we're super excited to have you here. And I have heard nothing but good report about Levi from the people who know him and so he came as a suggestion to be on the podcast. I could not be more thrilled about this. And then I put him with Ben. And unbeknownst to me, you guys totally know each other! How do you know each other?
Ben 35:53
We do. Yeah. We both worked BYU together in the same division. So we were in meetings together, and, yeah. Levi was a big deal here.
Levi 36:07
Whoa. I will say it's also hard not to know Ben. He's a bigger deal.
Ben 39:18
I'm very loud, yeah.
Tammy 39:24
Okay, well if you want to know about my guests, make sure you check out their bios which are going to be found in our show notes and you can find that at LDSliving.com/Sunday on Monday. Okay, so, let's do this: grab your scriptures, something to mark your scriptures with, and a scripture journal and Let's Dig In to 1st Corinthians chapters 14-16.
Tammy 40:16
Okay you two, so right out of the gates I've asked every guest who's come, to read this letter from Paul. And we joke, that if Paul saw the church today, we'd all be getting a letter. So I want to know specifically, what stood out to you from this portion of the letter that Paul wrote?
Levi 40:16
I'll say, I'll just jump in. I got "very most exasperated parent vibes" and maybe that's just cuz of the stage of life I'm in with two young children. But it kind of, a lot of it came across as "Come on everybody, what are we doing here?
Tammy 40:16
Oh I completely agree. I like how you said that, I'm gonna write that down: "exasperated parent vibes." Cuz I think that perfectly describes Paul.
Ben 40:16
Yeah. But I believe I said the verses that stood out to me the most actually has very exasperated parent vibes. It's 1st Corinthians 14:26 and he says this. " How is it then, brethren, when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation." He's like you're all saying all these things. And then this is the part that stood out to me, he says: "Let all things be done unto edifying." That was the part that really stood out to me, that all that we do should be to build, to build the kingdom of God, to build up ourselves, to build up other people. Not to build ourselves in a selfish way, but, yeah.
Tammy 40:37
Yeah. Well Ben, let's take that just a little step further because how does that apply to us, then? If you were to put that into words for modern day, how would it sound?
Ben 40:16
Yeah. I would say, make sure that everything you do builds other people. That's what I would say. And I think that that, for the context of my life, I think its probably the most common that I tear people down when they're not present, the way I talk about other people. And so I want to make sure that all things I'm doing, everything I'm involved in, all my conversations is just for edyfying and building up other people and the Kingdom of God.
Tammy 40:26
Ben, that's really cool, because I was just recently studying the talk given by our prophet back in April "The Peacemakers," just epic landmark talk that he gave. And there's a part in there where he talks about the need for us to be encouraging. And if we can be encouraging, the best is yet to come. And that's what it reminds me of right there. Like we just have to be willing, and I like how you said, how do we talk about people when they're not around? Are we edifying? So that's really good.
Ben 40:37
Yeah. You know, Tammy, I don't have it memorized, but paraphrasing, I think what President Nelson said was for those who build others. the best is yet to come. I think that's what he said, and you know,
Tammy 40:47
Yes.
Ben 40:49
I think Paul and President Nelson have the same message.
Tammy 40:49
Yeah, I totally agree. And so that is what's so cool is because every 6 months I feel like we get a letter, right? And let's find out what stands out to you. So today as we discuss this, K, that is so fun Levi. It is an exasperated parent vibe, and so we are just gonna Dig In to some of these exasperations and words that Paul has for us. And so in the next segment we're going to start out with specifically something that really stood out to me, and I'm just gonna work it into our next lesson becuse this is something I think I have said to my own children. And we'll do that next.
Segment 2 40:49
.....
Tammy 40:49
Okay, so I want to know, growing up, for both of you, was there a specific voice that you trusted? Whose voice could you trust?
Levi 40:49
You know, I think for me, my dad has always been like a very trusted voice to me. So he's originally from New Zealand. Um, a fun fact, I didn't realize for the first X amount of years of life that he had an accent. And I think that kind of ties in to what we're talking about cuz he was just dad to me, and represented trust and those types of things for me within my life. And so it's kinda like, Oh, your dad sounds like this, he sounds like that. And he just sounded like trust and love and caring for me.
Tammy 40:49
Great example.
Ben 40:49
I of course would say my parents loved also, but I'll say something a little different. You know, there were 2 shows I watched alot as a kid and they were "Mr Roger's Neighborhood", and I trusted Mr Rogers quite a bit. And also we watched all the time in school, "Bill Nye, the Science Guy" and I felt like he was always teaching me exciting things about science, he was a voice that I trusted when I was a kid.
Tammy 40:49
Okay. Both of those answers, all of you, I really appreciate how you answered that. So let's turn to 1st Corinthians chapter 14 and let's bracket off verses 10 and 1 and we're going to see what Paul has to teach us about voices. So here we go, 1st Corinthians 14:10-11 and Ben, will you please read those for us.
Ben 40:49
Yes. "There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification. Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barabarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me."
Tammy 40:49
Okay. Now pause before we talk about that verse because I want to give you some background about the Corinthians. Here's what you want to know. So the city of Corinth was one of the richest and most immoral cities in the world at this time. Now I thought this was really interesting is that this is not Paul's first letter to the Corinthians. There's actually references that tell us he had previously written a letter and it was lost, so it's not in the scriptures, but this is his 2nd letter. So Levi, I love how you said an exasperated parent vibe. He is like, Again, I have to write you. Come on, let's get it together. So he corresponded with the Corinthians more than any other group in scripture. And I really like how D Kelly Ogden and Andrew Skinner said this about 1st Corinthians. They said: "First Corinthians is so good because the Corinthians were not." I thought, that is really true. First Corinthians is so good because the Corinthians were not.
Tammy 40:49
So this great apostacy had now begun because Christ has been crucified and now the prophets and apostles are going out to spread the word. And Paul had to rebuke the Corinthians for their lack of unity, their spirit of contention, their doubts about the resurrection, their abuse of spiritual gifts, and the sophistication of Greek intellectuals and immorality in a variety of perversions. So knowing all this about the Corinthians, let's look back at these verses, 10 and 11, and I want you to tell me: Why would Paul want us to care about voices, or want THEM to care about voices?
Levi 40:49
I think for me, I go back to fun days when I was playing sports. I played football in high school, rugby at BYU and I remember I had a friend or someone who had asked me, he was like, How do you hear what's going on, you know, on the field? Cuz again, this certainly wasn't like a 60,000+ stadium, you know. There's a couple thousand people at our games, but everyone's shouting, everyone's yelling. Coaches are yelling different things, you're trying to hear communication on the field. And I just always think about that experience in running around, you know, in the heat of the game when it's like there's a lot of voices happening on the field. And you know, some are encouraging you, some are discouraging you and you know, you gotta figure out how to pick out the right ones to actually not get your head knocked in at the end of the day.
Tammy 40:49
How were you able to decipher that?
Levi 40:49
Um, you know, I, looking back on it, and I think this has a lot of spiritual implications, it was the time spent with the people that mattered, right. When you spent time with your coaches, you would understand their cadence. When you spent time with your teammates and you knew who was going to call the plays, you knew as you're on different sides of the field, like you know, there's a chance that he's going to call one of three plays. And I don't have to hear the whole thing, I just know his cadence and what that's going off of. And it came from hours and hours of early morning practices and just spending time getting to know what they sound like.
Tammy 40:49
Oh, so much good spiritual implication. I just wrote down so many notes of what you said. Time spent with the people who mattered. That was powerful, and the hours and hours. And I liked the idea, the cadence and how it sounded to you. Oh, so good. You know, in that verse, verse 11 where it says the word 'barbarian', that translates into Greek as a foreigner or a non-Greek speaker. So it's important to know that, like someone who's a non-Greek "and him that speaketh shall be a non-Greek speaker to me." Like what you said, like I'm not going to understand them because I haven't spent the time to understand and know and really figure out what they're trying to say. What about you, Ben?
Ben 40:49
Yeah, as Levi was talking, you know, I'm not a sports person so that isn't something I can relate to. But I love the analogy. The thing that came to my mind as Levi was talking was that the sound that we are most likely to hear in a crowd is our own name. And even when it's really crowded, you know, we can pick out our name. And if someone's like in that early sleep stage and you're talking and they're not listening, if you say their name, they'll perk up, cuz they can hear it. And I think of the voice we're most likely to hear is the voice that knows us. And so I think that not only knowing the cadence and you know, listening to God who knows us, but also being aware of listening to the voice that knows us and understands us.
Tammy 40:49
Um-hm. I think the same goes true for, and I didn't know this until I had children, but I could be at a playground and there's just kids screeaming and all sorts of kids are crying and I knew my kid's cry. And I would be sitting there completely cool as a cucumber while all these kids are crying. I'm like, Oh that kid's hurt, not my kid. But you just know your kid's cry and you know your kid when they yell your name,' Mom.' And that was really interesting to me. I thought all mom names were the same. And just like you said, Ben, I really liked hearing that, knowing we hear our own name and the voice that knows us. When you said that, it just kind of like sparked this question in my mind. I'm just curious, and this was not even something I asked you guys to think ahead of, but did anyhthing pop into your head about an experience in your life where you DID hear your own name from a voice that you trust? or an experience with t;he Spirit speaking to you because you understood the voice?
Ben 40:49
Yeah. I've got 2 great experiences that are very similar. So I'm a Temple worker right now in the Provo temple which I love doing. The first time I worked in the temple was in 2017 and I had just started a master's program and I did not have time to do it, I did not have any extra time. I was doing so many things, I was so busy. So I asked a lot of people what I shoud do, jsut getting advice. And they all said, You don't have time, you can still worship in the Temple and not be a temple worker.
Ben 40:49
Then I called my dad who had been a temple worker for 11 years in the Seattle Temple. And he's very pragmatic, so I thought he was going to say, Ben, you don't have time, you can do it later in life. And this is what he said. He said, Ben, you don't have time NOT to work in the temple. He said God can make time elastic, he'll make it all fit. And so I worked in the temple for 2 years during my whole master's program and it was absolutely amazing, he was right. And then fast-forward 3 years later, I was wanting to work in the temple again, I called my dad. And I said, "Dad, should I work in the temple?" He said, "Ben, you don't have time, you're too busy. And he gave me
Tammy 40:49
Really?
Ben 40:49
Yeah. Like he gave me the exact opposite advice. And I was like, you're right, I am busy, And I decided not to do it. And then I had this experience hearing a friend of mine speak, where like in an instant I knew I needed to do this, I needed to go. And so often I feel like God talks to me through people I love and trust. And you know, both times I had gotten a lot of opinions from a lot of people about what I should do. I thought about it and let all those percolate in my head, the Spirit was able to speak to me. At one time the Spirit spoke to me clearly through my father, the other time the Spirit spoke to me through a friend.
Tammy 40:49
Well, that's awesome cuz it goes right back to what Levi said because you had spent time with people who mattered and so you could trust their voices. So that's REALLY cool. And even the Holy Ghost. When you spend time with THAT voice that matters, then you can trust that voice when you get promptings. Oh, that's cool, Ben. Anything from you, Levi?
Levi 40:49
Well, just, I'll double stamp what Ben had said about when you're in a large crowd, right? You definitely can hear that name ring out. I had that happen so many times in sports, for good and for bad, when you do something great or when you make a good mess-up. But as Ben was talking, the thing that came to mind for me was receiving any type of blessing. And those are powerful moments, when you're addressed by name, and then throughout the blessing. It's just like very clearly comes, Levi, Levi, Levi. And I know who it is who's speaking, but kind of what Ben had said, through other people. It's like you can imagine in our Heavenly Father, Jesus saying your name and those words.
Tammy 40:49
Levi, thank you so much for sharing that. I hadn't even considered a blessing. Like, that was perfect. So awesome.
Ben 40:49
Can I share a recent experience I had with a blessing?
Tammy 40:49
Please do.
Ben 40:49
So, yeah, I've gotten lots of blessings throughout my life and usually someone says the blessing, you think about it, you ponder on it and that's just usually how it works. And I had a good friend recently give me a blessing.We call each other and we talk through things all the time. So he gave me this blessing and he was kind of pausing and hesitating during the blessing and then it was done. I was like that blessing was fine. And then he said I wasn't able to articulate what I saw and felt. So then we sat down and talked about what he had experienced giving me the blessing. And this was an experience I hadn't really had but in the relationship that this good friend and I have, that we talk through things.
Ben 40:49
And so it just made sense that after this experience where he had received some revelation on my behalf, we were able to talk through it and kind of figure it out together. And I thought, man I wish I could have done that more often in my life, you know. Talk to the person giving me a blessing and say, This is what I felt and experienced. What did you experience as you were giving me that blessing? And yeah, so just interesting that God can speak to us in different ways while He's speaking to us, you know, Himself, through His servants and through our friends and loved ones.
Tammy 40:49
Yeah. Absolutely. That's a cool experience, Ben, getting that blessing and then......Wow, I liked that alot. Great discussion you guys. I really appreciated your answers. I started out by saying that this was something I would probably have said to my kids because there's often times where I'm like, Listen to me. And sometimes I even say, Look at me. Like I need to know you're looking at me so I know you're hearing what I'm saying. And I sometimes I wonder if Heavenly Father's like, Just, would you look at me? I need to see your eyes so I know you're hearing what I'm trying to say to you. And it just goes bak to this idea of spending time with people that matter. The hours and hours that we have to put in to really hear that voice I think just, on all levels what we've discussed applies to all the relationships that we have.
Tammy 40:49
And I almost feel like Paul is that's what he's saying to these people. Like he's not only saying, Listen to the voice. He's like, Look at me. I mean I've written to you before. Come on, you guys, ugh. Levi, I just really appreciate you started out "an exasperated parent.' Because in the next segment we're going to talk about something that I think he was so exasperated about, because it's something they alread believed in. He's like, would you just look at, let's get back to basics, can we just discuss this? So in the next segment we're going to tell you what it is.
Segment 3 40:49
.....
Tammy 40:49
Okay. So this is the question I have, and I got this question from the Seminary lesson for this specific verse of scripture. Snd I thought it was an interestion question to start with. And it said: I want us to come up with a list of the days that we would say changed the course of human history. So what are some that popped into your mind? Do you have any days that you would say changed the course of history?
Levi 40:49
I mean, I'll just jump in with like, First Vision, right? That comes to mind in terms of spiritual ones.
Tammy 40:49
K. I'm gonna write these down.
Ben 40:49
Yeah. I would say July 4, 1776. That at least changed my history. Oh, that's a good one, Ben.
Tammy 40:49
For those of you listening and don't know what that date is, it's Independence Day, or the 4th of July for Americans. So, good one. I immediately thought of Man on the Moon.
Levi 40:49
Oh, yeah. I was going to say, do we have to know the exact dates, cuz I'm terrible at history.
Tammy 40:49
We can generalize (laughter) For sure, experiences that changed the course of history. Let's do that.
Levi 40:49
Whatever day the internet launched.
Tammy 40:49
Yes
Levi 40:49
I think that has definetly changed the course of human history. And I remember the day I first heard about the new Smartphone. And like, that Apple was making smartphone and that, I didn't get one because they were very expensive, but that has definitely changed human history.
Tammy 40:49
Did either one of you hear first about email and then you had to choose the email address that you were going to use. And you were like, this isn't going to last so you chose the most ridulous email address ever, and now you're stuck with it?
Levi 40:49
Yeah. Well, the thing is, in school I remember that's what they told us. They were like you don't ever want to use your actual name because people can, the internet's a crazy place. And then, yeah. And then you have, like, I think mine was like Crusty Burger, or something like that and I was like, well, that's going to have to change.
Tammy 40:49
I DID use my name, Tamara Uzelac. I'm an idiot. Do yo know how many times I have to spell that out now to people? But I even said it, I'm like, Listen, lady. I didn't thing the internet would last, here I am now spelling out my email. S0, yeah, I did not think it would last, the internet. Okay, any other dates that changed history for you?
Levi 40:49
I think, for me, there's both for better and also some tragedies, like kind of the colonization and migrations, you know, of people both to the Americas but also to the Pacific Islands.
Tammy 40:49
Oh, wow. I appreciate that perspective. Awesome. Okay. So there's a list and we could make a very exhaustive list if we had the time, and we don't, so that's a great way to get us started into thinking about a day that we would say changed the course of history. Well, there's one more we're going to add to our list, and Paul talks about it. So let's go to 1 Corinthians, chapter 15. We're going to look at verses 3-8. 1 Corinthians chapter 15, and Levi, can you please read for us. We'll each take a verse, we'll just go in order, Levi, Ben, and then me.
Levi 40:49
"For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
Ben 40:49
"And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Tammy 40:49
"And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
Levi 40:49
After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
Ben 40:49
"After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
Tammy 40:49
"And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time."
Tammy 40:49
Okay. Tell me, what did all those people witness the event that changed human history? What we would add to our list?
Levi 40:49
Resurrected Savior
Tammy 40:49
Yes. Resurrected Savior. And that is exactly what Paul wants these people to know. So to the outside of those verses, I like how you just put it: The Resurrected Savior. That is Paul's testimony of the resurrection. Now here is what Joseph Smith had to say about the resurrection. And Levi, will you please read this quote for us.
Levi 40:49
"The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the apostles and prophets concerning Jesus Christ: that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day. All other things that pertain to our religion are only appendages to this truth."
Tammy 40:49
Okay, I'm just curious. Did either of you have thoughts about that quote when you read it. Anything that hit you?Oh, yeah.
Ben 40:49
Yep, as we were listening to that quote, I was just thinking about all these fun little principles and I was trying to think about how do they tie in to the resurrection? Like how are they appendages, like tithing and eternal marriage.?And the fact that the central fact of our doctrine is Jesus Christ doesn't diminish any of our other doctrines, but I think it helps us to connect them all.
Tammy 40:49
Oh, now that's really cool, Ben. I like how your brain works. So do this for me: how does tithing connect to the resurrection of Christ? That's a really good one.
Ben 40:49
Well, this is the thought I just had. And so I'm going to think through it out loud right now.
Tammy 40:49
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I love this.
Ben 40:49
But I think what tithing does is it teaches us to focus on spiritual things and it gives us a heart that isn't focused on this world but on building the Kingdom of God and trusting in God's ability to provide. So as I pay my tithing, I think the way that that could tie into the resurrection is I'm not focused on my own abilities, but on God's ability to not only take of me now, but to raise me to new life.
Tammy 40:49
Mmm. I like how you processed that. As you were talking, I was thinking when we pay our tithing, it allows us to build temples, which allows us to make covenants with the Resurrected Savior. That was, I have never connected the resurrection to these things. Let's do another one. What was the other one you said? Tithing. and....
Ben 40:49
I said eternal marriage.
Tammy 40:49
Eternal marriage. Okay, Levi, connect eternal marriage to the resurrection. How do those
Levi 40:49
I mean, that one to me seems like the most obvious one, right? is that you can, it will, we always talk about the 'till death do you part', but the aspect that because of the Resurrected Savior, your marriage and your families can continue on into the next life and it doesn't have to be that.
Tammy 40:49
That was cool. Like that quote was really right, Joseph Smith was right. All things connect back to Christ being resurrected. So this is a really important concept and truth that we have got to embrace and understand. And he is tallking to these Corinthians like, let's get it together. In fact, many of them believed. And again, we just learned that Great Apostacy started to happen. So many of them are like, Did it really? I don't know, do we believe this? So throughout the rest of 1st Corinthians 15, Paul gives these really great like quips, he gives us these verses. And I sent them to you guys ahead of time and I asked you to sort of "urban translate". That's what Tamu calls it whenever she's on the podcast. She's like, "Do you want me to uban translate this into normal terms?" And I'm like, Yes. So I sent these verses to you and we're going to go through our scriptures for those of you listening. We're going to mark the scripture. I'll read it how it's written and then we're going to ask, we'll go in order. And we'll just go Levi, Ben, back and forth and they're going to urban translate this.
Tammy 40:49
So let's go to 1 Corinthians 15:13. I do like 12, it sets it up. "Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?" Verse 13: "But if there be no resurretion of the dead, then is Christ not risen:" Hit it Levi. Urban translate that.
Levi 40:49
Whoa. I think, it's just like,s o right. If we're all talking about that the Savior was resurrected, but then you're also on the same, it's just very lack of logic, I feel like. If there's actually no resurrection, then there's no living Savior.
Tammy 40:49
Awesome. Ben, verse 14. "And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain."
Ben 40:49
Yeah, I would have been translated this as if Christ wasn't resurrected then our faith doesn't matter. And our preaching doesn't matter. Missing the point of it all.
Tammy 40:49
I'm thinking that, what's the point? Very good. Okay. Verse 15, Levi. "Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not."
Levi 40:49
So we're all liars because we all claimed that Christ is living, right, and actually he's not according to your thoughts.
Tammy 40:49
Oh, that's a good translation of that verse. Okay. 17: "And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins."
Ben 40:49
It's very similar to the other one I urban translated. But he's saying if Christ wasn't resurrected, then we're sinners and none of this matters.
Tammy 40:49
Yeah, no hope for anyone.
Ben 40:49
Yep.
Tammy 40:49
Okay. 29 Levi. "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?"
Levi 40:49
Yeah, this again is the exasperated parent of like, so if none of this is true, then what are you all doing baptizing people for the dead? Like, it's just a fun hobby you're doing, I guess.
Tammy 40:49
Yeah. Isn't that mind-blowing that they had been practicing this? They have been baptizing people for the dead but then they didn't really know why because they don't believe in it. Oh, yeah, that one blew my mind. That's a great way to urban translate that, Levi. K, verse 32. Ben. Here we go. "If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die."
Ben 40:49
It's like if there's no resurrection, do whatever the heck you want. Because none of this matters. We're all just going to disappear one day.
Tammy 40:49
Excellent.
Ben 40:49
Go fight a bear in Ephesus.
Tammy 40:49
Go fight a bear in Ephesus. That's so good. Have to write that down. Hold please, I don't ever want to forget that. You're in my scriptures. Ohhh K. Now I have one more which I did not send to you guys because I want you just to do it right off the cuff. And it's verse 22. Here we go. And give me your both of you what your thoughts are. "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."
Ben 40:49
I would say because of what Adam did, all of us are gonna die. But because of what Christ did, we're all gonna live.
Levi 40:49
Yeah, and similar thing, everybody's gonna die. The good news is that Christ lived and continues to live. So we get to as well.
Tammy 40:49
Excellent. And this idea of being able to live again is so important. It goes back to the appendages that we get to live forever. Not only live forever, but with our family members and friends. And I appreciate this so much. There was a great talk given by Elder S Mark Palmer in the April 2021 General Conference. And at the beginning of his story he told about how he had a sister who was young and she passed away and how devastating that was to his family. And I wanted to read this part of his quote. When we talk about losing someone, that in Adam, everyone will die. But then in Christ we are all made alive. So Ben, will you please read what Elder Mark Palmer had to say about the resurrection and his sister?
Ben 40:49
Of course. "So Elder Palmer said, I invite all who feel sorrow, all who wrestle with doubts, all who ponder with what happens after we die, to place your faith in Christ. I promise that if you desire to believe, then act and say and follow the whisperings of the Spirit, you will find joy in this life and in the world to come. How I look forward to the day I will meet my sister Ann. I look forward to a joyful reunion with my father who died over 30 years ago. I testify of the joy to be found in living by faith, believing without seeing, but knowing by the power of the Holy Ghost that Jesus Christ lives. With all my heart and soul, I choose to follow Jesus Christ and His restored gospel. This blesses every aspect of my life. I know that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, our Savior and our Redeemer. In the name of Jesus Christ, amen.
Tammy 40:49
Amen. That's powerful.
Ben 40:49
Yeah, I, I had some thoughts reading through this, because when we think about death and resurrection and losing people, that causes sorrow. And he lists if you have sorrowed, if you pondered, if you wondered, if you doubted, and I think that's almost all of us at some point. And the thing that's been hardest for me about thinking about the resurrection, the next life is, as a gay member of the church, the way that the celestial kingdom is pre-exaltation is preached, has never sounded possible to me. You know, I tried so hard to marry a woman here on earth, and that didn't work. I've never been married, but I tried very hard to get married. And so I'm goin', well, if that didn't work out here, how's it gonna work out there? Is that even a Heaven that I want? And what I've had to do is just understand that I don't know the whole plan, I don't understand exactly what Heaven will be like, but to trust that when I get there, it's not going to be something that's going to make me sad or disappointed.
Ben 40:49
And so, you know, I know a lot of people wonder about other things, you know, men who are sealed to more than one woman. What, what's that going to look like in the next life as well? I think we have a lot of these questions, but my faith in God, and Jesus Christ teaches me and leads me to say, I'm going to live my best life here, I'm gonna do the very best I can, and whatever heaven looks like, it's going to be a place that's wonderful and glorious with the people that I love.
Tammy 40:49
Um-hmm.
Levi 40:49
Well, I just adding on to that, Ben, I think it reminds me of that scripture. And again, I see Heavenly Father and Jesus in such a different light after having kids. And I think about that scripture that talks about how, if you think you know how to give good gifts to your kids, and so your, your urban translate - you're nothing compared to God, and what He can give to you. And I, that what you expressed is one of my core beliefs as well that like, I don't know how things work out. You know, when I was reading that quote, alongside with you, I was like, Hey, I don't understand how people go through life without that knowledge, or that thing to cling onto, that there is something after this life. Because that, it'd just be devastating and makes sense why people turn to a lot of other things other than faith to try and understand that. But that's one of my core beliefs is how is that, when all is said and done, Heavenly Father knows how to give really good gifts.
Tammy 40:49
I will back everything up that both of you said, I just want to say amen to that, because, and Ben, you brought this up - men that are sealed to more than one woman, you know, that's my scenario. I don't know how it's going to work out, I just know it will. And when, and I'm so grateful that you quoted the Prophet better than me when he said the best is yet to come. Like I'm thinking future, the best. And in Hebrew, when three things, when somebody's repeated it three times, it's like the best of the best. So in my mind, I, I urban translated what he said, to say: the best, the best, the best is yet to come. Like it's going to be better than anything we could possibly imagine. And our little brains can't, like it's, our brains are just so limited to what we can imagine. We like to kind of create scenarios or what it might be like, but we really know very little. And we're gonna get into a great discussion about The Three Degrees Of Glory coming up. But I'm grateful for this setup, because we really know very little about it, we just know it will be the best, the best, the best, better gift than we can imagine.
Tammy 40:49
And, in fact, when you go back to 1 Corinthians 15:22, when it says, Yes, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." I love the footnote for the word 'alive,' because it does doesn't mean physically alive. The word salvation is there. That's the, that's the alive we don't know a lot about. But boy, talk about the best gift ever, the gift of salvation for everyone. And that's where Satan comes in. He's like, not everyone. Boy. There, we're and we'll talk. I have the best quote about that from Joseph Smith, but I think that we've kind of skewed and Satan wants us to think 'it's harder than it is. Not many people are going to make it. It's very selective.' And the scriptures and our prophets are very clear, actually - a lot of people are going to make it. I can't wait for us to talk about that. But this is a great conversation to lead into that. So what we're going to do then, is in the next segment we're going to talk about a step that is necessary for the Kingdom of Glory discussion. So we'll introduce that to you next, and we'll do that coming up.
Segment 4 40:49
.....
Tammy 40:49
This is kind of fun. I've never done this on the podcast before. So to introduce our next discussion, we're going to do a reader's theater. Have you guys ever done that before?
Ben 40:49
Yes, I have, actually.
Levi 40:49
I have not.
Tammy 40:49
Okay, Ben. Explain that to Levi, what's a reader's theater?
Levi 40:49
Basically, we just read through it together, but kind of like a read through for a play. So we are different characters.
Tammy 40:49
Okay, this is so good. So, Ben, you are going to be the voice of Dr. Edgar J. Goodspeed.
Ben 40:49
Okay.
Tammy 40:49
Levi, you're going to be the voice of Dr. Paul R Cheeseman. Is that the best last name? Boy, quality, quality. Okay, so Dr. Edgar J. Godspeed, he's a renowned Bible translator and scholar. Dr. Paul R. Cheeseman was a professor of Ancient Scripture at BYU. This is an actual interview that took place on the campus of UCLA in the summer of 1945. Now, please keep in mind, for everyone listening, this is not intended to belittle or berate, but instead to educate and inspire. It's a great conversation. And Dr. Paul R. Cheeseman received permission from Dr. Edgar Goodspeed to put this into print. So here's the conversation that the two of these men had. And, Take 1. Go.
Levi 40:49
Is the Scripture found in 1 Corinthians 15:29, translated properly as found in the King James translation?
Ben 40:49
Basically? Yes.
Levi 40:49
Do you believe that baptism for the dead was practiced in Paul's time?
Ben 40:49
Oh, definitely. Yes.
Levi 40:49
Does the church to which you belong, practice it today?
Ben 40:49
No.
Levi 40:49
Do you think it should be practiced today?
Ben 40:49
This is the reason why we do not practice that today. We do not know enough about it. If we did, we would practice it.
Levi 40:49
May I quote you as a result of this interview?
Ben 40:49
Yes.
Tammy 40:49
And Scene. Wow. Nice job, you two. Way to take some liberties there Ben, in your voice influctuation. That was awesome. In your inflections.
Ben 40:49
This is a theatre, I need to interpret it in my own way
Tammy 40:49
I'm really impressed. Nice work. Okay. So that's an actual interview that they had with this renowned Bible translator and scholar. And I was struck by that because he says, We don't know enough about it. But if we did, we would practice it. Here's what we do know. Let's go to 1 Corinthians chapter 15:29. We had Levi kind of urban translate this for us, but we want to talk about it a little bit more. So Levi, will you please read for us verse 29.
Ben 40:49
"Else, what shall we do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead arise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?"
Tammy 40:49
Thank you. So to the outside of that you can write, "practiced and believed by the Corinthians". which we already kind of mentioned. But make sure you write that to the outside, that's why he's questioning them. Like, why do you even do this? Which again, like you said, Levi, of an exasperated parent. So I asked you to to come having thought about this idea of baptisms for the dead. I think it's fascinating in Doctrine and Covenants, I used to love to teach this to my students in Seminary. In the spirit world, this is what's going on. Doctrine and Covenants section 138. And if you go there, it tells us what's happening in the spirit world right now, as you and I are talking about the spirit world, then, it's so cool, because in the spirit world, this is what's being taught. So go to Doctrine and Covenants section 138. And we're going to read verses 32-34. And Ben, can you read those three verses for us.
Ben 40:49
Yes, 32-34. "Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression having rejected the prophets. These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands, and all other principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the Spirit."
Tammy 40:49
Thank you. Okay, so they're being taught the gospel of Jesus Christ. But there's such a fabulous word in verse 33. What type of baptism for remission of sins? There's that word? What is it?
Ben 40:49
Vicarious
Tammy 40:49
What does vicarious mean, Ben?
Ben 40:49
I believe it means something like in the place of undefined.
Tammy 41:29
Yeah, that's exactly it. And I used to read this with my Seminary students, and I would say, can you believe that? But here they are, and the people are hearing. And the spirits are like, I believe. I want to be baptized. And then they hear, Oh, you gotta wait for Little Timmy to get his butt to the temple and do the work. Like they're counting on us to get our recommends and to get there and to go do baptisms for the dead. That is so cool. Tell me, have you guys ever done work for the dead? Like, what is your experience been doing work for the dead? Maybe the first time you did it? Or have you done work for your family members or anything like that? Tell me about this verse of scripture in your own lives.
Levi 41:29
Yeah, maybe I'll just jump in as well. I had, maybe a plug for what is it? the Family Tree app or the Family Search app? Which is
Ben 41:29
Yeah
Levi 41:29
I mean, it's doing work for your relatives, so easy. And what, you know, because I, at various times throughout your life, you're like, Oh, I really need to get on the ball with this and help my ancestors. And then there's always some cousin or someone who's like reserved all the names, you know,. And I was like, Oh, come on like. Or you don't have records, those types of things. But then to just be able to hit like two buttons. And then it's like, cool. Here's a direct relative of yours that you can take and go to the temple. It's, you know, I. The early saints are probably like, Oh, you guys are so lazy. But it's awesome. It's awesome.
Tammy 41:29
It's awesome. And fast. It's so efficient. Wow. Yeah. Good. So have you done that? You've been able to click names, go to the temple and do the work for them? I have never done that.
Levi 41:33
Yeah. It's amazing, it's life-changing and takes maybe all of five seconds.
Tammy 41:34
Real fast. For anyone listening who's never done that, what's your recommendation to get started? Convince me I should do it.
Levi 41:40
Yeah. So literally what I've done, right, and is you get the Family Tree app, you sign in, and then once you have it, there's a little tab that says 'Temple'. And then you hit which ordinance you're ready to go and do. It'll find somebody within your tree or related to you, sends it to you, and then I just take it to the temple and they use the little QR code to print off the card. And then I get to walk out feeling like I'm a champion family history person.
Tammy 41:40
Because you absolutely are. I think people that can do stuff like that, it blows my mind. We have this big push to find family members to do work for. I could not find anyone in my family line. And so they had called young adults, like youth in our word to be the family genealogy representatives. I thought that was so cool. So this 16-year old comes over to my house, because I said, Listen, I'm pretty sure the spirit of Elijah is dead in my home. There's nobody to do work for, everyone's had the work done for them. And he was like, I'll come over. He comes over, sits down on our computer, clickety, click, click, click. The next thing I know, my, over on my printer 72 names get printed off of family members that we got to do the work for. I just looked at him and I'm like, Get out. (laughter) Now I got 72 names to do the work for. So if anyone's thinking there's no work to be done, I am proof. I used to think that and now we, and we spent that year doing 72 names. Yeah.
Ben 43:02
Just have a 16-year old come over to show you where you're wrong.
Tammy 43:06
Yeah.
Levi 43:06
Well, and it's, I'll just add as well, that I was legitimately surprised how much it meant for me emotionally as well. Once again, half Mohawk Native American, half Mauri and raised for the most part in Utah. And so any type of Temple work that I've done prior, I mean, all Temple work is good Temple work, right. But as I was going through there, it's just like, and I can't tell you how many Matt Smith's I was baptized for, Peter Johnsons, or those things. And the emotion that hit me the first time I did that, and the name was Mohawk, or the name was Maori. And it was just like, oh, and it wasn't just 'born in Denmark in the 1200s.' I wonder what Denmark's like? I don't really have a connection there. Probably an awesome country. And then thinking about just like this person was born in Hikoi,Keikoi which was the place where my father was born. I've been there, I can see it I can start to envision. It was huge for me.
Tammy 43:06
Wow. Well, as you just shared that I felt the spirit of it. That was powerful, Levi, to do for your own family in a place you're familiar with. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that.
Ben 44:20
Yeah. Tammy, when you asked me to think about this before the podcast, the thought that came to mind was, I have a good friend whose mom had done tons of family history. She's a convert to the church and she said too many names. And so my friend asked if I would do some of her mom's names. So for a couple of years, she would send me Initiatories and Endowments and sealings to do and I did dozens of names for this friend of mine's family. And you know, sometimes I would go to the temple and I'd be tired and I wouldn't get much out of it personally. But the person who I was doing work for, they got a lot out of it. And I remember talking to her once and I said, When we all get to heaven I'm gonna have a big party with your family.
Tammy 44:59
Oh, wow.
Ben 45:00
'Cuz I've been so involved. And just this reality of these people are real and that they care and that they're grateful for us. And, you know I have thought about often the people in my life who have blessed me and helped me: the missionary who found and baptized my parents, Alan Olson, someone I'll always remember and be grateful for. And as I take a name to the temple, I become one of those people that someone is grateful for, like a real person. Like when we meet, they're going to be so grateful. And that's just a really special thing. And like regular life is important, like we have a lot of stuff to do that is very important. But it's also important to do, that this temple work that is, is not just life-changing, but eternity-changing for these people who aren't just names, but they're people. And like Levi said, they can be our ancestors, if we want that, if we're going to look up our own names as well.
Tammy 45:56
Mmm. Ben, I like how you said it's not just life-changing, it's eternity-changing. And from both of your experiences that you shared, it just reinforced this idea. And you said this, Ben, that they are real and they care. That there are people on the other side of the veil who are waiting for us, and that are real. I think we forget that. Sharon shared this a couple of weeks ago. She said every time she goes to the temple, she says a little prayer with the person's name. Because she says at the end of the day, you are their escort, as if it was a real human being you're taking to the temple for the very first time. And I feel that way with our sweet kids who go do baptisms for the dead. You are their escort into this covenant relationship with Jesus Christ. Could there be a more important job? And how cool that teenagers get to do that? We have given that job to these beautiful young youth.
Ben 46:47
Yeah. You know, Tammy, one of the realizations I had as I was thinking about this in preparing for this discussion was that when I go to the temple, I'm almost always thinking about me. And the How can I connect with God? You know, how can this benefit me, I'm having a tough day. I need inspiration. And that's good and that is a good reason I should go to the temple. And I think I want, you know, at least part of my motivation to be for the people that I'm going for.
Tammy 47:08
Wow, I will Amen that. Thank you to both of you for your thoughts and your personal experiences with doing work for the dead. And we go back - "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead?" And I love that as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we can easily answer that question. We, verse 29, is very real for us. And I'm grateful for that truth. And again, an appendage that connects right back to the resurrection of Christ. I'm gonna be thinking about that forever Ben, so cool. So thank you to both of you. Okay, so because we believe that everyone is resurrected, and if the work gets done for them, then we are now ready to discuss this next important - and sometimes misunderstood concept - and we're going to discuss that in the next segment.
Segment 5 47:51
.....
Tammy 48:01
So let's just recap about what we've learned. So far the Apostle Paul, he's corrected the false belief that #1 - There would be no resurrection for the dead. There is. #2 - he warned the Corinthians to not be deceived by the attitude of the people by saying, Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die. Because he expresses that actually there is life after this death. And then the next is the last false belief Paul needs to fix - is that regardless of our choices, God will grant everyone the blessings of eternal life. So he's going to talk about that. Let's go to 1 Corinthians, chapter 15. We're going to highlight and mark verses 40-42. Well actually, highlight 40-44, you're gonna want all of these verses. But specifically, we're going to read 40 and 41 first of all. So Levi, can you please read 40-41. These verses of scripture, for those of you know, this is a scripture mastery scripture, your kids are going to mark it in their scriptures, that we memorized it in Seminary, it's good stuff. So Levi, read 40-41.
Levi 48:57
"There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial was another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory."
Tammy 49:17
Thank you. So there's our degrees of glory: celestial, terrestrial, telestial, is introduced to us in Doctrine and Covenants section 76. That's where you want to know the word, it came from there. And then we have the rest of this talk. Ben read for us 42-44.
Ben 49:34
"So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."
Tammy 49:53
Thank you. Okay, so right there, let's just stop in this idea of terrestrial, telestial, celestial, all the different things. What's one of the common misconceptions we have about these kingdoms?
Ben 50:07
I think one of the things that I hear costs a lot of pain for people is the idea they might be separated from family members.
Tammy 50:13
Right
Ben 50:14
That, well, if we, that this idea of 'no empty chairs'. If someone doesn't live the gospel the way they were taught, then the family is not going to all be together.
Tammy 50:29
Bingo, you nailed that one on the head for sure. Anything to add Levi?
Levi 50:32
I just say, also, forgetting that they're all - and this just struck me as as I was reading it - they're all named Kingdoms of Glory. And I think the way we sometimes talk about it, is not even like podium finishes at the Olympics, right? But we talk about like, there's the terrible one - telestial that you don't want to end up in. And the consolation prize of terrestrial, and celestial is the best, like, and I think we forget that they're all Kingdoms of Glory.
Tammy 51:04
Yeah. Well, listen, and here's what we do know about the Kingdoms of Glory: not a lot. I mean, it's pretty limited. But boy, Satan sure, has done a number on so many of us, because he has us thinking, as you put it, Levi, that the celestial kingdom is the highest podium. And I'm not negating that it's not the goal, because it is. But it feels like it's nearly impossible to achieve. And I've actually heard from someone that I dearly love, that they did everything that they were supposed to, and their children didn't turn out, so what's the point? And now they have left the church.
Tammy 51:35
And there's a great talk, it's by Elder Holland in April 2003 called "A Prayer For the Children". And listen to this, he says, "We can hardly expect the children to get to the shore safely if the parents don't seem to know where to anchor their boat." And so my plea is just for all of us to just remember that, like, know where to anchor your boat. And listen to this quote from our Prophet Joseph Smith. For anybody who's feeling like their boat is anchored, or maybe you feel like you want to pull up your anchor because things just aren't working out, there is so much hope. And this is going to just throw Satan's lies right out of the, like, we're not even going to believe the lie anymore that people aren't going to make it. We've GOT to read this quote, it should be on every manual. Maybe we should quote it at the beginning of every meeting that we have, because I love it so much. Levi, will you please read this for us. This is found in "Teachings of the Presidents of the Church, Joseph Smith." We'll have the reference in our show notes, of course.
Levi 52:33
"When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom and ascend step by step until you arrive at the top. And so it is with the principles of the gospel. You must begin with the first and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world, it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave."
Tammy 53:07
Okay, go.
Levi 53:09
I love that because I, if you'll permit me to go on a little bit of a rant. This is, one of the things is I've grown and had children at a very - I think before having kids - had a very Old Testament understanding of God, in which do something wrong - cut off forever. Like it seems pretty cut and dry. And even when you think about sometimes how we or even other faiths teach the plan, is that it's like, well, we're all here to be tested based on how you do that'll put you into your permanent place and score. And then you really look about it. If eternity stretches forever in both ways and then you're being tested in this little blip of time, it's less like an AC T exam to get into college, and more like how did you behave at 4pm and one seconds on a random Tuesday. And now
Tammy 54:08
Totally
Levi 54:08
Now place be damned forever because of that. And speaking, and to the varied experiences kind of like Ben has shared, it's like, there must be more to this. There must be more than what we're currently understanding the world is teaching.
Ben 54:27
And one thing that I did wrong in the past was I would say, Well, these are my life choices and this is what it's going to look like. This is what exaltation looks like. And that really was discouraging to me, the relying on my current understanding of things as I tried to make decisions now. And I love that Joseph Smith is so clear, like in the next, like we're going to keep worrying about salvation, exultation. So the idea that we're going to understand it all now is just not realistic. And one of the thoughts I had as we were talking about this is Terryl Givens spoke at BYU a few years ago. And during the q&a, someone asked him if people can progress between kingdoms, you know, they can progress from one kingdom to another? And this is what he said, and I'm paraphrasing, but he said, 'Well, this apostle said this, and this apostle said this, and they expressed differing views. And he said, This is what I know: that we believe in a God that gives everyone the opportunity to progress when they are ready, and who gives us many chances to do the right thing. And so he's like, I don't know what that's going to mean, with kingdoms of glory, but that's the God I believe in.' I believe that too.
Ben 55:35
I have a good friend whose daughter is making choices that she is concerned about, and, but very well-meaning, and not being rebellious. And so the mom was like, asked me, Well how do I respond to this? And what I said to her, I said, I think we just trust people and trust God and trust that as she makes choices, this will ultimately guide her to make the right choices in the future. And let this be a learning experience in keeping active and present in her life. And she said, You know, I do love her, I do trust her. And I trust that she is God's daughter, as well, and that God will continue to take care of her and teach her through the choices that she makes.
Ben 56:18
And so, you know, as I think about these kingdoms of glory, what Levi says exactly right. They're going to be like, everywhere is going to be the kingdom of glory. And I trust that God will give us lots of opportunities to do the right thing. And what I have seen and learned in my life is that eternal life is now, and I can experience celestial things now as I do my best to live the principles of the gospel. And so there's no point in waiting to do good, because I can be blessed immediately. And so I hope to be one of those people who wants to grow and progress now, so God can help me do that now.
Tammy 56:55
Wow. Absolutely. Okay, yeah, can we just pause here for a second? Like, we all just need to take a collective big inhale and exhale, because that was such a solid and powerful discussion. Thank you to both of you for your comments. Then I just want to go back really quickly, though, because it really touched me when you talked about trusting in the Lord. We often use that phrase in the church when we don't fully understand things. And it made me think of Elder Oaks' conference talk back in 2019, titled "Trust in the Lord." The thing I like about his talk is his whole premise is we don't know a lot about after this life when it comes to the spirit world and judgment day, we just don't know a lot. And then he said this quote. "This idea of trusting in the Lord is still the best principle we can use when our efforts to learn or our attempts to find comfort, encounter obstacles in matters not yet revealed or not adopted as the official doctrine of the Church."
Tammy 57:56
I just think this idea that we just need to trust in the Lord is so powerful, because Satan removes that idea from all of our brains when things go wrong, or when things don't turn out the way we thought. He's like, 'Well, you certainly can't trust the Lord, because that didn't work for you.' And I just, I think, yes, we can. We can trust, we need to anchor, we need to just sit with everything for a little bit, and just breathe. And so thank you to both of you for sharing that. In fact, it makes me even now go to the Parable of the Laborers in the vineyard in Matthew, chapter 20. Because forever, I thought it meant all the work that we were going to do on this life. And people who join the church when they're 90 are going to get the same blessings that I got for living the gospel at age eight. Because we're still working, like we always said that the vineyard is this life. It's kind of been translated as the vineyard means this earth. But that's what the celestial kingdom will be, is this earth, right? that will receive its paradisaical glory. So I'm kind of now thinking, maybe there's another level to this Laborers in the Vineyard. And he's also talking about bodies terrestrial, bodies telestial, the third hour, the sixth hour. I don't know. My mind"s spinning right now with this.
Levi 59:05
Well, I love, that's one that is my, one of my favorite parables. It's why I do the work and am involved in the things that I do, because it really flips on its head many people's understandings of equality versus equity versus justice versus mercy. To say nothing of at the end of the day, I think everybody's going to be slamming the Mercy button when it comes to in our final interviews and judgments stuff. Like I would really, really like some mercy for myself to be applied in these different situations. And I've always loved that, is that it just shows that like, the Savior came down and did all of these things so that He could extend mercy, so that He could bless as infinitely, people's lives, as possible. Not without people understanding and coming to Him and following Him. But I truly believe that's one of the things He, why He did that was for the opportunity to bless people abundantly.
Tammy 1:00:08
Yeah. And that's what God does, He blesses abundantly. I like how you just said that Levi. And you, it goes back to that gifts. Like if we know how to give a gift to our own physical children, surely God knows how to give the greatest of all gifts to all His children, and He wants to. And it almost seems like in my understanding, it's people who just don't want it, that God can't convince to have it. So there will probably be people who, Nah, no thanks. But I think for the majority of us, it goes back to this vineyard, like people are then like, You know what? Now I think I do. And then they come in at the sixth hour, and look at all the hours of chances He gives them. Oh, I like that; that was your favorite parable, Levi.
Levi 1:00:47
Well, and even, again going deeper on it, it's like it's so easy, right, for us, as imperfect parents, or administrators, or managers, whatever roles we sit in, to just make these very easy blanket rules. I thought about it once. So you do this, and this happens. And then the more you understand about God, and really I think what that parable is telling, is it's just like I give to people sometimes the same things, but I treat them sometimes differently, depending on their circumstances, to get them home to Me. And I think sometimes we forget that. As great as we deem ourselves being as missionaries or administrators or preaching the gospel, it's like, there's One who actually knows what He's doing and how to work with each of His children.
Tammy 1:01:38
Well, of course it'd have to be real. Otherwise, why are they preaching all of this in the spirit world? So people are still getting chances. I'm having a major aha, this is so cool you guys.
Ben 1:01:49
Can I tell you what's going on in my head right now?
Tammy 1:01:51
Yeah!
Ben 1:01:52
I've been thinking about where my worth comes from the last week or so. Because I, I'm gonna sound so cocky sayin' this, but I feel like I'm an impressive person. I've got a PhD, I published a book, I have a popular podcast.
Levi 1:02:07
I agree. I agree.
Tammy 1:02:08
Agreed.
Ben 1:02:09
And you know in the end, someone who doesn't have all those things, is gonna get the same thing that I'm gonna get. And I think sometimes maybe I focus too much on being busy and doing a lot, when, it's good to do things to build the kingdom of God. And I'm gonna keep doing that and I've consecrated my life to building the kingdom. But I think that I need to focus more, remembering that my worth doesn't come from publishing a book or giving a fireside. If I didn't do any of those things, I would have the same worth.
Tammy 1:02:44
Yeah, I agree. That's a great reminder for all of us, where our worth comes from.
Ben 1:02:50
Yeah. And you know, I started out by saying I'm impressive. I guess what I want to say is, every person is impressive.
Tammy 1:02:56
Yep, in every stage of their life, yep. And we're all figuring it out. Wow. Thank you. Thank you. I think that that was a beautiful discussion. And for those of you listening, we were not prepared for where it went. Like, we didn't know, there was nothing there, I just wanted to have a great discussion about this. And I felt the Spirit of Truth, like when you were both talking, this good feeling, like this is true, that God really does love us. And I like how you said Levi, that He wants us all to come home. Like when you said that, I was like, Oh, He does. Our Heavenly Parents want us to come home. Wow. Thank you. Okay, so then we have one final message that Paul wants to share with the saints in Corinth. And for all intents and purposes, he wants us to really understand this last message. And we'll do that in the next segment.
Segment 6 1:03:49
.....
Tammy 1:03:59
Okay, so Paul has one last thing to teach us and to say about this thing. We've talked about this false idea that if you can't figure it out now, there's all hope is lost. And so we're going to go into 1 Corinthians, chapter 15 and we're going to read verse 58. And then we're going to go cross reference it with chapter 16:13-14. So Ben, will you please read verse 58. And then Levi, will you please read chapter 16:13 and 14..
Ben 1:04:26
"Therefore, my beloved brethren, be stedfast, unmovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as you know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord."
Levi 1:04:38
13 and 14: "Watch ye, stand fast in the faith, quit you like men, be strong. Let all your things be done with charity."
Tammy 1:04:48
Thank you. One of the things I love about the Come, Follow Me manual is it gave these verses of scripture and then it just asks this question which is: "How can listening to the Lord's appointed servants, or doing the simple truths that we've been taught, how can they help us find peace and to stand fast in the faith?" And I asked you guys to think about that. How can you be or how have you been steadfast, immovable, always abounding in good works? And I like 13:- "Standing fast in the faith and quit you like men." That word 'quit' translates as 'behave', behave like men. Talk to me about those verses in your own life and how you've been able to do that.
Ben 1:05:24
I've got two quick stories, one from my youth and one more recent. When I was in high school, I read "The Work and the Glory" series. I loved church history in the Doctrine and Covenants in Seminary. And while I was doing all that, so I was like really invest in church history, President Hinckley announced the rebuilding of the Nauvoo Temple, and I was so excited about it. And then there was this explosion in temple building during President Hinkley's 10 years' Prophet. And so I got out a big world map and I put a dot like all the temples that were announced, and then put a different colored dot over that dot as they were dedicated. And so I was so excited to go to the temple and, and I think President Hinckley instilled in me a love for the temple. And even before I was endowed, just my, went and would do baptisms. And now I live a two minute drive from a temple, like it is so convenient for me. And because of the circumstances in my life, I get to go to the temple all the time. And I'm grateful that the President has made that more possible. But for people who can't go, whether for distance or other reasons, there are good ways to participate in the work of the Lord, even if we can't physically attend the temple.
Ben 1:06:30
And a more recent story of something that really touched me was a few conferences ago President Nelson talked about getting rid of the debris in our lives. He talked about the remodeling of the Salt Lake Temple. And when he said that, I immediately knew that I had to get rid of one of my social media accounts, I still have two others, but I knew that like this social media is debris in my life., And I went to go delete it and it said, Do you want to deactivate your account? And I was going to just deactivate it, no, I am deleting it. Because I felt prompted to just get rid of this debris, and I deleted it so I could never come back to it. And I'm grateful. He didn't say, get rid of a social media account, but that's what I felt prompted to do. And I have not regretted that choice one bit. It's given me, it was debris that I'm grateful is gone.
Tammy 1:07:17
Yeah, well that's a great example. Get rid of that debris. Okay. But Ben, I just want to go back really quickly because you said how you had instilled within you this love for temples. And I just have this thought in my mind, because earlier we talked about how the, that all the other things we learn in the church are appendages to the resurrection of Jesus Christ. And you brought up the tithing example. I just, I only know this story because you shared it with me. Will you share your story about how your parents put money for, towards a temple? Because I feel like your love for temples started when you were a little boy, and it's one of the greatest stories I've ever heard.
Ben 1:07:53
Yeah, well, thank you. That's very kind.
Tammy 1:07:55
And it's an homage to your parents, converts to the church.
Ben 1:07:59
Yes. So when my parents got married, they decided they weren't gonna have children. And then a year later, they joined the church randomly, they weren't looking for a church and decided that maybe having a family was a good idea. And they were both working. And my mom had had a number of miscarriages, and it looked like they weren't gonna be able to have children. And so back then they would do fundraisers through the wards and stakes to raise money for the temple. And they lived in the Seattle area iand the Seattle Temple was going to be built. And so they had this big fundraiser around Christmas time. And my parents had two incomes, so they would keep, they would live off one income, and then save the other income, and they had started a college fund for their children. And my dad had this prompt. He said, Well, we're not gonna have children, let's just give this whole college fund to the Seattle Temple.
Ben 1:09:20
And then my mom found out just shortly after that, that she was pregnant with my brother, that was my oldest brother. And she she was already pregnant but didn't know it when they had donated all that money. So I hear this story and I thought, why didn't you, why didn't you keep the money? Like that would have blessed our family so much, because my family is not wealthy in any way. And then I thought about it. And all of my siblings have graduate degrees from college, and none of us took out student loans. And so the Lord took care of us. My parents followed the prompting, and the Lord took care of us. Now when I drive this, by the Seattle Temple, which is by no means the most beautiful of temples, I think it's, so my parents and the way that they they sacrificed 1000s of dollars to build that building because of their faith.
Tammy 1:09:35
It makes me weepy. It's such a good story about your parents.
Ben 1:09:39
And a quick sidenote: my parents never told me that story. I went to go visit a friend a few years ago over Christmas and his mom was in the same ward with my parents at the same time. He's was like, Oh, yeah, I remember your parents did this thing. I was like, what? And I went home, when I asked, my dad's like, Oh, yeah. Then he told me the whole story. Like, how did you never tell us this? So, so to me, this is a relatively new story, I just found out about a couple years ago..
Tammy 1:10:03
But I, I think it's so powerful because that experience and that influence, putting money in to pay for the temple and what that, I don't know, just your parents going back to the idea of voices. Like they heard a prompting, they felt a prompting, a voice. And the Spirit would have known your mom was pregnant. And I think, I love how, yeah, you were taken care of. And, oh I love that Dad. Your dad's name, his name's Buzz, by the way,everybody. And he has an Instagram account, and that's something, that is, you should definitely follow that.
Ben 1:10:34
It's true. Buzz Schilaty,he's retired, my mom is assisted living in Washington, lives with my brother. She has Alzheimer's and my dad wants to do something meaningful. So he gives these little sermons on his Instagram account, and they're adorable,
Tammy 1:10:46
it is so good, it's so good. Well, thank you, Ben, thanks for sharing that. Levi, how have you been able to stand fast in the faith, act like men, be immovable?
Levi 1:10:56
I think part of it comes with me shifting my perspective on what it means to be a man, right? And I think that's especially important, coming from two, very prominent-like warrior cultures. And then you come into the US and we have very, what we think are clearly defined expectations for men. And so earlier in life, when I read that, would read those scriptures, I'd imagine big, strong guy standing immovable on a mountain, just taking hit after hit after hit, can't be moved. And over time, I've learned that it's just that simple truth that it doesn't matter who you are, you will be knocked off the mountain. You'll step off the mountain yourself, you'll do those types of things. And I have really appreciated just some of the wording and stuff that our current Prophet uses.
Levi 1:10:56
You look at, like you would talk a lot about the temple. I think about the temple recommend interview questions, and that word that they keep using throughout there, 'strive', right, which to me means try. And it's all of a sudden shifted to this idea for me of like, Hey, can I be perfect and not get knocked off the mountain? Can I do those types of things to recognizing you will be knocked off, you will step off sometimes of your own accord. And at those times in life, and I think we've all experienced them, you can almost hear the adversary laughing in those pervasive lies of like, 'You fell off once, there is no point. Let me remind you that the celestial kingdom is for the best of the best and the perfect, and you you're not going to be there,' right. And then all of a sudden hearing the voice of the Prophet and stuff and realizing and saying, Oh my gosh. Like, I don't have to be knocked off here. I don't have to always do this, I just have to get back up and keep trying every single time.
Levi 1:13:03
And it's like the one I think about so much, the things we put on ourselves - the need to be perfect. It's just like it allows you to have some victories. That it's just like if you can just keep giving it a go, and even when you're just exhausted and can't, you recognize the Savior will pick you back up and put you back on the mountain. It's like that is a huge victory, and saying like, I can do that. Yeah, I can keep getting back up. So for me really just a big shift in what we understand: strength and steadfastness to be, is really the ability to take hits and keep moving.
Tammy 1:13:42
Levi, I like how you said to get back up and give it a go again, because yeah, you're right. Every one of us are going to get knocked down, that's just life. Absolutely. And when you read back in 1 Corinthians 15:58, where it says, "Abounding in the work of the Lord,....... that ye know that your labour is not in vain." When I think that abounding in the work of the Lord, is that getting back up? Like, ah, all right, I'm down for the count. But a BOUND, bound back up in the work of the Lord, it won't be in vain at all. And it just makes me think. It goes back to how we started where we think that that age- old "I did everything that I was supposed to. We had family home evenings, we prayed. And now look what happened to my kids. I'm done. Families can't be together forever."
Tammy 1:14:27
And I had this real aha moment which was: if we think doing all of those things is for the salvation of our children, we may have missed the boat a little bit. Because I feel like doing all those things is for the salvation of ourselves. It's for our foundation, and our kids are going to be okay if WE have a strong foundation. They're going to come back to us and ask us how to do things and have questions and I love that that idea like, get back up. Get, like yeah, you took a hit. You can do this though, and the Lord needs you to do this so that it won't be in vain. And it really won't. For those of us who have wayward children or family members, it just won't be in vain. And even going back to Section 76 of the Doctrine and Covenants, verse 67 is one of my favorite verses, because you want to know who's going to make it in the end? Listen to this word. These are they who have come to an innumerable company." Innumerable. There'll be so many people in the celestial kingdom, you can't even number it?
Tammy 1:15:25
What? Cuz Satan has me thinking, five are going to make it. Okay, yeah, I mean, this is inlimited. You go to the book of Revelation, 7:9-10 - we'll get there later - again, it uses this massive number of people who are going to make it. So we can all just breathe easy and know, please know everyone listening, the work you are doing is not in vain. So get back up, keep taking those hits. And I love this "quit you like men." I like the word 'quit' better than 'behave'. Don't quit. You got this, every one of you. And so I am grateful to both of you for sharing your thoughts today and your testimony. And it just, it came through and I felt it as you shared your experiences. So thank you to both of you. What a great discussion.
Ben 1:16:07
Of course, it's an honor.
Levi 1:16:09
Thank you.
Tammy 1:16:10
That's it, we're done. So just take a second now, kind of gather your thoughts throughout our discussion today and what is your one takeaway, what's something you're gonna remember from our discussion, or that stood out to you?
Ben 1:16:19
You know, I kind of want to end where we began. That there's that verse you read in chapter 14 that says that there are so many, so many kinds of voices. I recently contributed an essay to a book that Deseret Book published this summer called "No Division Among You", about division in the church and ways to heal division. And one of the other authors wrote that one of the problems with division these days is that we don't have the same, we're not all getting the same information. Like before, everyone watched the same news, or the same newspapers. Now there's just so many sources of information, we can't even agree on what's true and what's not. And that causes a lot of division.
Ben 1:17:00
And what has been happening in the last few years from the church is, what have they been emphasizing? How to hear Him, how to hear God. And with so many different kinds of voices in the world, I want to focus on making sure that I am hearing the voice of the Lord. And I hear the voice the Lord in so many ways through inspiration from the Holy Ghost, through church leaders, through conversations with friends and family, and I want to focus on hearing Him. And what I heard Him say today was, as we were talking was, we are all in us. We are loved by God. And that's something that I want to keep deep in my heart and keep in the forefront of my mind, as I interact with other people and people I disagree with every day are enough. They are loved by God, and I will love them too.
Tammy 1:17:51
Beautiful takeaway, Ben. Grateful that you brought that up, especially that idea we have different sources. That's good. Thank you. Levi, what about you?
Levi 1:18:00
I appreciate always like studying the New Testament. Because if there's one thing that it taught me, especially the verses and stuff that talk about the Savior and His life, was that there were a lot of people who thought they knew what the gospel was about. And then the Savior came and quickly showed them. Like, 'Oh, you thought that's what I said back in ancient times. That's definitely not what I meant. I meant this.' And people were just blown away. And I think we'll have those experiences when He comes again, as well. And it's kind of that precursor to it to where we were all running around thinking we understood what the Three Kingdoms of glory were. We're like, we've talked about, we thought we knew what justice was, that we thought we knew what it meant to be on the covenant path. And I think we'll be legitimately surprised, like Ben had said, when we find that He lists everybody, right? And when He is like, You are all My children. And you are all enough for this. And I wished you had gotten along when I kept telling you to get along, but I'm here now, and I'm going to help you.
Tammy 1:19:09
Yeah. Oh, great takeaway Levi, I appreciate that. I went back to how you started us Levi. I loved that you told us it was like an exasperated letter from a parent. And then when we go to how we ended. Could there have been a better final like dad moment like, Listen, you guys. Quit like men,behave like men, this, like you're gonna take some hits, but get back up. I mean it's just such a great, those were great dad verses. So. But I really appreciated Levi, how you started us out that way. And then Levi I wrote when you said, how do you hear voices? It's the time you spend with the people who matter. The hours and hours of knowing and hearing and recognizing their cadence. That was really cool. And then Ben, I loved it when you said they're real and they care. Like people on the other side. It like hit me in my heart. Like that's right, they are real. It's not just a name on a piece of paper with where they're from and when they were born, and maybe when they died. So that was awesome. And then Buzz, I gotta quote buzz: "God can make time elastic.'
Ben 1:20:07
Yep.
Tammy 1:20:08
Great, great reminder, He really can. So, thank you friends. That was such a fun discussion. And that's it. We're done.
Levi 1:20:15
I appreciate it.
Ben 1:20:16
Thanks, friends. Such a pleasure.
Tammy 1:20:19
All right. Well, I would love to know what you learned. So if you haven't already joined our discussion group on Facebook or Instagram, go do it. It's a great place where you can share what you've learned, you can actually just on Facebook, especially, you can go and just kind of type in some of your thoughts or anything you're thinking about what we learned about. And it's so fun to read and also to see how the community comments and shares their experiences with your post. You can get to both our Facebook and Instagram by going to our show notes for this episode on LDS living.com/sunday On Monday, and it's not a bad idea to go there anyway, because it's where we're going to have the links to all of the references, a transcript of this whole discussion, and glue-in for this episode, so go check it out. And by the way, the glute-in is the quote from our Prophet Joseph Smith, that really good one.
Tammy 1:21:01
The Sunday on Monday study the group is a Deserdt Bookshelf Plus original brought to you by LDS Living. It's written and hosted by me Tammy Uzelac Hall. And today our incredible study group participants were Levi Hepry and Ben Schilaty. And you can find more information about my friends at LDS living.com/sunday on monday. Our podcast is produced by Hailey Higham and Cole Wssinger and me. It is edited by Hailey Higham, and recorded and mixed by Mix At Six Studios and our executive producer is Erin Hallstrom. Thanks for being here. We will see you next week.
Tammy 1:21:30
And please remember ,all of you who've been knocked down, that You Are God's Favorite.
Tammy 1:21:36
Even the spirits on the other side are frustrated. They're, "Just please!"
Transcribed by https://otter.ai