The Gift of Listening with Mauli Bonner

The Gift of Listening

Kathryn Davis: [00:00:00] What if the only thing you used to minister was your ears?

Kathryn Davis: [00:00:07] Hi and welcome to Magnify, an LDS Living podcast where we talk about using our influence as followers of Jesus Christ to make a difference in the world. I’m your host Kathryn Davis, a mom, a seminary teacher, and a Traeger enthusiast, who loves God.

Kathryn Davis: [00:00:21] When it comes to ministering, do you ever get stuck thinking it has to be big? Or that you need to show up with something in your hands and so you end up running to the store to get their favorite ice cream or their favorite treat? Because at the very least, ministering requires food, right? But maybe it doesn’t. Maybe it’s as simple as offering our undivided attention … just leaning in and listening.

Kathryn Davis: [00:00:47] And listening is what Mauli Bonner does as a music producer and vocal coach in Los Angeles. Listening is what allows him to process structure and nuances in a piece of music. And it’s a skill he tries to put into practice as a husband, a father, and as a disciple of Jesus Christ. Because listening is how Jesus loved. Mauli, welcome … thank you for being here!

Mauli Bonner: [00:01:10] Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

Kathryn Davis: [00:01:13] I got to ask you two questions. The first one I want to know is do you have a favorite song? I know that's like asking you who your favorite child is, but do you have, like.

Mauli Bonner: [00:01:26] Goodness.

Kathryn Davis: [00:01:27] Like a go to favorite pop song?

Mauli Bonner: [00:01:29] Oh, you know, what's really sad? And this is going to sound arrogant, but my favorite song is one that I wrote, and it's a gospel song just because it meant so much to me as I was writing it. And so it's on Gladys Knight's One Voice Gospel album, and it's called "Humble Me, Lord". But it is just it gets me going, It recharges me, "Humble Me, Lord" is my go to jam. It's not pop, either.

Kathryn Davis: [00:01:52] Is it really your go-to?

Mauli Bonner: [00:01:54] That is It is.

Kathryn Davis: [00:01:56] So if you were to have a walk out song, would that be your walk out song or do you have another one? I want to know your walk out song.

Mauli Bonner: [00:02:04] Okay. My walk out song would be like would be Uptown Funk. Bruno Mars. Uptown Funk.

Kathryn Davis: [00:02:09] Oh, that's a good one. That's it. Okay. Mauli, can you tell us a little bit more about your line of work?

Mauli Bonner: [00:02:14] Yes. So I'm a vocal director, is what they call it, because it changes for every artist what I do. So for some artists, I'm teaching them how to sing. For some artists, they're going through some vocal damage and I'm healing them. And for others I'm writing their music. So writing songs or writing what their set is going to be like. So they're talking points and they're talking cues. Because usually when you see like an artist on stage, especially pop artists and it feels like they're being natural, a lot of what they're saying is scheduled, timed and leads into the next song. And so I do all those things.

Kathryn Davis: [00:02:46] And you work with all of that? I do. So a lot of roles. It sounds like like you're a music producer, a writer, a vocal director, to name a few, right?

Mauli Bonner: [00:02:55] Yeah, all things voice.

Kathryn Davis: [00:02:57] So it just sounds like you put a lot of time into listening to music and vocals. And so I think with all that time you put in, I think it's pretty safe to say that you are an expert at using your ears.

Mauli Bonner: [00:03:11] You know, it it definitely is. It's my crown jewel. These ears, though, I use them. I use them constantly. It's it's a big part of my line of work.

Kathryn Davis: [00:03:20] So I want to know what has music and producing music taught you about listening to others?

Mauli Bonner: [00:03:26] You know what's interesting when it comes to music? As we listen to music, just as a listener, anybody who loves music and has their favorite song, just like you were asking, your favorite song, your favorite, anything, that's when we feel heard is when we're listening to songs that matter to us. So for example, if there's something that's going on in your life, whether it's a bad breakup or you lost somebody close to you or you're celebrating something, there's music that goes with that that you put on those headphones and you listen to that song and you just feel heard. You're not saying anything, but just listening to something allows you to feel heard. And so I found that to be a very interesting quality that kind of translates into communication. When we're listening, we in turn can feel heard.

Kathryn Davis: [00:04:12] Oh, I love that. So what are some of your favorite moments when you learned about the importance of listening when you were working with music or musical talent?

Mauli Bonner: [00:04:22] Yeah, so. Well, just recently. So right now I'm writing for Stevie Wonder. He's doing a gospel album, which is awesome, right? It's like Stevie Wonder. Oh, it's incredible. It's incredible. But the the best part of that process is listening. So as a songwriter, I don't walk into that space and then say, okay, how about this? Stevie? No, no. Okay, how about that? Literally, I'm just listening, listening to him talk, listening to his stories, listening to his creation of a new instrument he just brought over from Japan that he mastered in weeks. But I'm just listening. As I listen, I learn him better and I'm now able to communicate what he wants to be told through music. And so one of my favorite stories is sitting with him in a space and listening because I'm doing what he does professionally. Because, yeah, if you're blind that that, you know, that aspect of communication. Listening is a big part. And Stevie Wonder hears everything. I feel like I've been in this, this boot camp training of how to listen as I'm sitting here working on how to write music with someone who can't see.

Kathryn Davis: [00:05:29] And you've been doing it for so long and yet you're still learning new things.

Mauli Bonner: [00:05:33] Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.

Kathryn Davis: [00:05:35] So have you been able to translate this skill or this? I think it's an art and art of listening to other. There are aspects of your life or to other roles in your life?

Mauli Bonner: [00:05:46] Yeah, I mean, everywhere except for marriage. I just I guess I'm the word. I'm like, I know I can do this, you know? So. No, it really does translate, though. It does. If, you know, for example, just recently there was a dedication, a monument, dedication. And this dedication was to get to the end of this dedication from beginning to end, meaning getting the park to approve it and getting the right sculptors and the funding and the church to be a part of it. And apostles and governor, all these pieces came together. And what's fascinating about this incredibly hard thing that was done, yeah, that really happened all within a year of us deciding that this is what we wanted to do. It was just listening to one another and what we wanted this to be, what we wanted this dedication to be. So this wasn't me pitching my ideas. Yeah. And then Governor pitching his everyone was listening to each other's thoughts and feelings, and that told us exactly what it should be. I find that when we have a better understanding about our counterparts was on the other side of the conversation. We have a better understanding of what they want and what they feel. Then we know what steps we should take rather than trying to convince them of what we want and what we feel.

Kathryn Davis: [00:07:01] And I think that takes practice, right, to be able to listen. And I think sometimes we listen with the expectation of what am I going to say in return? Right. We're not really listening to what is being said. We always talk about like listening is easy, but I think hearing is easy. But listening takes practice.

Mauli Bonner: [00:07:22] You're absolutely right. You're absolutely right.

Kathryn Davis: [00:07:24] And it just kind of reminds me of one of my favorite stories in the Book of Mormon is 3 Nephi 11, where the Savior comes to visit with the Nephites. Right. And there's been all this destruction and it's black for three days. It's dark, and they don't know who's around them or who survived. And then it says they hear a voice from heaven and it takes them three times to hear the voice. And then the voice says, Behold my beloved son, in whom I am well pleased, in whom I have glorified my name here ye him. And then it goes on to say that they hear this voice God, the Father telling them on the third try that his son is coming. And then it goes on to say that they looked up and they thought it was an angel that appeared unto them. So I've also wondered so much about that story, like they heard it, but they didn't listen because they didn't understand. They still thought it was an angel, even though the voice told them that it was going to be Jesus Christ.

Mauli Bonner: [00:08:21] Right. It's fascinating.

Kathryn Davis: [00:08:22] Do you think we ever hear and maybe hear what we want to be said and we don't really listen?

Mauli Bonner: [00:08:28] Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I think the natural man, the way we want to respond naturally, is as you're speaking, I'm hearing it. And I'm either thinking of, do I agree with what you said? Do I disagree? Am I offended by it? How do I respond to this? If you can just think of our father in heaven, you know, our creator as we're praying to him, I, I can't imagine that he's hearing our prayers and seeing what he feels about it, what he wants to say back, you know, what he agrees with and what he doesn't. If anything, The only thing is him trying to hear what we feel as we're speaking, what we're going through, if we can mirror that type of listening. So when someone's speaking, we're not responding to what we feel about what they said or responding to what they feel about what they're saying. That's the most important part is not making it about us and keeping it about the one who's communicating.

Kathryn Davis: [00:09:22] Yeah. So have you been able to do that in other relationships with family or loved ones or friends?

Mauli Bonner: [00:09:28] Yeah, I mean, our family, we're a big family and, you know, a lot of LDS families are. Yeah, there's four boys, four girls in our family. And so communicating is something that we've always done all a lot of it. We do it all night on Monday nights. That's we that was our that was our family. What they call family council is what we call. And on Monday nights, everybody brings their issues to the table. And we would just talk and talk and talk and talk through them until there's like a little lack of last man standing type thing. There was just a couple of people left awake and everybody else is falling asleep. But we really talk through all of these things. And so with our family, we're realizing even now more and more that we're so different and that we don't have to agree, we don't have to come to the same resolution. But what we should do is understand how the other person feels about what they're saying. Oh, this is why they're saying it. This is how they feel when they're saying it. And as we hear that, then we give the best versions of us back to them. And that translates into music. I love that Does Yeah, it translate into music. So when we're listening to music and songs, there's parts of these songs that touch us in ways we feel like another person cannot. There's just something about this song that relates to what I'm going through and it it feels what I'm going through. And it's not because the song is listening to our we're not saying anything, but it's because we're being active listeners to the words that are being said and what what is felt through those lyrics. And so if we can translate to another person, it's life changing and communication.

Kathryn Davis: [00:11:05] Yeah. And I think especially as a parent of teenagers and I teach teenagers all day, I begun to see the gift that listening can be and the gift that we can offer someone by just listening without. I love what you said, without reflecting our feelings, our emotions, our thoughts. I have a teenage son who for quite a long time was bullied and he would come home from school or on a weekend and just be devastated about that. And my first reaction was to be upset or to try and help. And as I did, as I put my own emotions on it, I saw him start to shut down and then he wouldn't talk to me as much. And I just have learned that it's hard, but I have to just let them feel that emotion without putting my own emotion on it.

Mauli Bonner: [00:12:00] I think it's fascinating what you just what you just explained, because especially you being a parent, a well-intentioned parent, protecting their child. Yeah. Even bringing those emotions into the conversation contained what that person actually needs or wants or is going through. Because now it's about us, Right? You know, And so long as we're protecting the person across from us in that conversation, the healthier the conversation is going to be. And they're going to want to hear more of us now. Now they want to hear from us because they feel heard and completely understood. I just think it's it's it's a hard thing to do because our natural reaction is to feel and respond, you know, fight or flight. But if we can just sit in the emotion that they're feeling without it affecting us, without it taking us up and down and all around through our emotions, I think it's going to change the course of a lot of communication that we have with people we really care about.

Kathryn Davis: [00:12:54] Well, it's how the savior communicate it. To be a good listener is to follow the example of Jesus Christ, who was a perfect listener.

Mauli Bonner: [00:13:04] You know what? This is what jumped out to me, and this is... this is probably the hardest moment of Jesus Christ life for me to imagine. Jesus went to his father and told his father, for lack of better words, Take this cup from me like this. This is too much to bear. Too much to bear. And I imagined after he expressed himself, he then listened to his father. And what did his father want from him? What did his father need of him? And then finish the act of what he needed to do, rather then, I mean, in our in our human, my human self would have been like, really, you're not going to save me? Like, you kidding me? Look at them. Look at how they are to me. Really? And Christ just felt heard. Whatever he needed to hear from his father in heaven and what the goal was that his father wanted and was able to act on that. And that for me is an incredible moment, an example of how we can do the hardest things if we're listening to who is on the other end of our conversation.

Kathryn Davis: [00:14:10] That's so powerful, Mauli, just to remember that it is a conversation and if God is an active listener, then we need to be as well, right?

Mauli Bonner: [00:14:21] Yeah. Yeah. And the thing is, honestly, we're all professional listeners at this point. I think thanks to like reality TV and like singing competition shows, like we can just listen and, and kind of get what they're feeling, get what they're going through. We listen to our podcasts or TV shows, our movies or favorite songs. We are professional listeners because it's not a two way conversation, really, where we're listening to our music. When we're listening to the conference talk, we're just listening. What is it that they're feeling that they're trying to give me, you know, And if we could just take that a skill that we all already have and apply it to real conversations.

Kathryn Davis: [00:15:00] So how do we do that? Like, what does that look like?

Mauli Bonner: [00:15:02] It's it's it's hard. It's painful. It's painful because you feel like, when's it my turn? It's going to feel like that if you're just trying, if you're just starting, you're like, you know what? I'm going to go into this conversation. I'm going to listen with intent and want to really feel what they're communicating, what they're feeling. After you're done doing that, at some point you might feel like, okay, why aren't they doing this for me? Is this one sided? And that's the hardest part, but it has to be 100 and zero. You give it all and expect nothing back. If you get anything back, that's beautiful. But 100 and zero. So as you're listening to what this friend or family member is going through and and it could be something you feel so strongly against, but your intent is to better understand them. The line of communication and trust is going to grow immensely. And I think for me, that's why a lot of the people I coach, they look at me like I'm their therapist and I'm not. I just listen to them sing as they sing and express their voice. There's this deep connection that they have. There are students that I've had for 15 years that I don't even teach anymore. But they call me before they go on to a big show, really, and just say, "do you have anything for me?" Just because they trust me, because they've spent years of me listening to them. It's incredible.

Kathryn Davis: [00:16:19] I've heard the saying before, "Listen to someone's pain all the way to the bottom."

Mauli Bonner: [00:16:23] Ooh, I love that.

Kathryn Davis: [00:16:25] Right? Like, that's kind of what you're saying. Listening 100% all the way. And it seems like it's an easy thing to do, like what you were saying. But I don't think it's... I don't think it's done a lot. I think it's a gift we can give, but we don't practice it very often.

Mauli Bonner: [00:16:43] Yeah. And the thing is, I mean, if we're looking at it with a business mind, it's brilliant for business. You can get whatever you need. If you can just listen to who you're negotiating with, what are their needs, what are their ones, what are their desires? So it translates across the board.

Kathryn Davis: [00:17:02] So you said when you would sit in a room, especially with this monument that you just finished, that you would listen and hear what they were saying, but was there more to it? Part of listening is also not listening to the words that are said.

Mauli Bonner: [00:17:17] My my point in giving that example was this: I don't know that there's many people in this process of building this monument, this historical beautiful thing, right? That's at This Is The Place Heritage Park, that it wasn't me pouring out my passionate testimony about why this monument is important. These black pioneers need to be represented. And without having-- I didn't do that one time. Really, I don't think they've ever heard my feelings of why it's important and why we need it. It literally was just me listening to them about what they thought and what's important to them that told me what doors are open. Beautiful. I found where they care. I found what was important to them and we'll go in that direction. Next person, hearing them, listening to their perspective of what's missing and why and what they feel they can do and what's important. Then I knew exactly what doors were open and how they were willing to hear me rather than me trying to force my opinions and thoughts and feelings onto that. Yeah, I just listened and the doors revealed themselves.

Kathryn Davis: [00:18:20] Because then you can find common passion, common beliefs, common ground.

Mauli Bonner: [00:18:25] Absolutely. That's it.

Kathryn Davis: [00:18:27] I love that. And it reminds me a little of a story that you shared on your Instagram a couple of months ago about an interaction you had with a man who called you some racial slurs. Yeah. You were going into a meeting to discuss how we can root out racism and speak with our children. And you told this story of an interaction. And what I found so beautiful about the story you shared was you quoted Martin Luther King Jr. Martin Luther King Jr. said this, "People fail to get along because they fear each other. They fear each other because they don't know each other and they don't know each other because they have not communicated with each other." And I found it really interesting that you were going into this meeting and you couldn't let go of this interaction. Like, it wouldn't leave you. So I just want to dig a little deeper into that and ask you why you couldn't let that go and what interaction you wanted to have with this man and how listening helped you.

Mauli Bonner: [00:19:29] Yeah, you know, what's interesting is when it happened... I mean, if you can imagine just someone hurling verbal assaults at you, the worst things that you'd want to hear, they're doing it. And so I didn't even know... I didn't know what to do. I was still trying to figure out how to respond to that. And as I approached him to have more conversation about what just happened, I didn't have this game plan. I didn't realize that I had tools that were already developed for me to use. I didn't realize that until I was in the situation, so I didn't go into it saying, Oh, here goes, I'm going to use this against him. No, I just went to him and let him know how I felt. I told him once and I said, This hurt. And then the rest of our conversation was him talking to me about what he was going through and the pain he felt and me not listening back saying, "Yeah, but what about me? Yeah, but you said this to me." I put me to the side after I expressed that to him. My focus was completely on this man who was so hurt, and through his pain he was giving pain to other people. And he expressed that and the best way he knew how to express it. And the fascinating part was, is that after that conversation of not me saying all the things I thought and felt, because I didn't, just listening to him, I was healed. I was free from the burden of carrying the hateful words that he was saying because I better understood his pain. It's a fascinating thing that the Lord has... It's already built in ready for us. The Lord is already telling us if you just listen, just hear them, then we don't have to convince the other person of anything. We just get to be healed by the spirit of the Lord.

Kathryn Davis: [00:21:26] That is so powerful and such a beautiful reminder of what we've been talking about, to put ourselves aside and see if we can hear them, their story, where they're coming from. And not only can we be healed, but maybe there can be some healing in the listening. Absolutely. What a beautiful gift you had to offer.

Mauli Bonner: [00:21:47] Oh, man, it was. I got to say, it was a fascinating experience and it taught me so much. I never would have thought that I would be free from having to carry that experience. There is no weight on that on me because of it. So it's fascinating.

Kathryn Davis: [00:22:02] So how has that changed? You said you taught you so much, so how has it changed interactions you may have in the future or some of your feelings about the gift of listening?

Mauli Bonner: [00:22:12] You know what it is? Your level-- or my level of love is higher. I have a higher capacity for love. To love someone that I didn't know that I would ever have enough experience to love them. You know, sometimes we just have an interaction with someone that you don't have time to build a relationship and build these trust building experiences that allow you to love them more. But it can happen like this. And now I'm like, Oh my goodness, because I left feeling like I wish I got his name and number so I can check on him. I think about him. The part that I hold on to is I wonder how he is. I'm trying not to cry, so I don't sound like a you know, I don't I don't talk. I don't I can't talk through my tears like most people can't like the prophets and apostles. I don't know how they do that. They can just... I am turned into a mute.

Kathryn Davis: [00:23:05] Can you sing through your tears?

Mauli Bonner: [00:23:07] No. No, ma'am. No. You know, although I do train people to do that. But I was just saying that I think about him. I wonder how he's doing. I hope he's okay. And this is a stranger that was really rude. Like, if I can do that and honestly feel that with a stranger that said some terrible things, then imagine the level of love I can have with a friend that I no longer speak to or a sibling that I'm going through it right now. Our capacity to love is so much greater than we realize when we begin to listen.

Kathryn Davis: [00:23:41] What a beautiful thing to take away in our interactions with spouses or neighbors or ward members that we might have been offended by or hurt by. Can we go into that relationship and be healed through listening? I've never thought of that before. That listening can bring healing.

Mauli Bonner: [00:23:59] Oh, absolutely.

Kathryn Davis: [00:24:00] I wonder if that's a little how the woman at the well felt after her interaction with Jesus and how he truly heard her and listened and saw her. And then she went away wanting to tell everybody about it.

Mauli Bonner: [00:24:14] I'm just... I love that you have this topic. Like, who does this topic? When you were like, listening, I was like, Who told you? I'm like, This is a secret. And like, how did you guys even know that this is a thing? And so I just I'm fascinated and I love that we're talking about this.

Kathryn Davis: [00:24:30] Well, I think it's something we can do, right? Like sometimes, yeah, we want to we want to make a difference and we want to help. And we get weighed down or bogged down by these big ideas that it doesn't have to be such a big idea that it can truly be listening. That's a gift we can offer. Yeah, that's a gift Jesus offered. And it's a gift he offers us. And to be called an expert listener, I think that's what I want to be called.

Mauli Bonner: [00:25:02] I love it. I'll call you that. Well.

Kathryn Davis: [00:25:05] I'm like, Listen, like, that is such a beautiful thing that you are known as an expert listener.

Mauli Bonner: [00:25:12] Yeah, it's it's. It's definitely fun. You know, right now I'm working on this project, and it's a project for kids. I work on a lot of children's shows, like Disney Kids Show. Oh, yeah, like shows as well. And so it's fascinating. The kids, they just respond to what they hear. They're on their iPad and their favorite shows and whatever else. A lot of their first stuff is just how they feel about what they're hearing and how it's given. And so I'm directing these adults on how to speak in a way to when a child hears them, they can feel something. And so and children are such a great example of listening.

Kathryn Davis: [00:25:48] That sounds fascinating. I want to know more. Yeah, that's great. Mauli, Seriously, it's been such a joy to talk with you. And we want everyone who is at home listening. And I love how you pointed out that we're all expert listeners, right? We just need to practice it. Everyone home listening to leave with one small idea or action from this conversation that we can implement throughout the week. So as we wrap out, what is your small and simple suggestion for how we can love and meet the needs of others through listening?

Mauli Bonner: [00:26:18] Okay, I love that question, but I don't know if what I'm about to say is not small. It is simple, but it's a hard thing. Is that okay? Yes!

Mauli Bonner: [00:26:28] Okay. Okay. So I know that over the last few years, two, maybe three years has been hard for so many. Many of us in in ways we never have been challenged. And the emotional toll has been high. And because of that, some of us have lost people that we loved and that we still love, but that we would say, I loved that person so much, but now they're no longer with us. Whether it's a difference of views or an argument. And you guys went your separate ways. I think if we can take a moment and think about who is that friend that I somehow lost in this journey of trials that we've had these last couple of years, who was that family member that was so close to me? My challenge to you is to go to that person, reach out to them and ask them, What was I not hearing? What did you think that I just didn't get? I didn't get. If you can take the time to just share that with me and allow me to listen, because I'm ready to hear you. And this does not mean that they now have to listen to you. Does not matter who was right or wrong. The whole point is for you to better listen to that close friend or family member. That's my challenge, is to do that, allow them to say and explain themselves. And you try to understand what they feel and what they're saying and that's it. And allow the Lord to do the rest. That's my challenge, my hard, simple challenge. And good luck to everyone.

Kathryn Davis: [00:27:58] I want to hear what happens with people because I had some people come to mind. That's a lot of humility to go to that conversation, to just listen. I love that question that you asked. What did I not hear that I need to understand? It's a powerful question.

Mauli Bonner: [00:28:17] And here's the thing. We loved them long before that break happened. They were someone we could rely on. They were someone we would call on all of the times, good times and memories. They're still that person. And the Lord wants us back together. Wants their children back together. And so we can do that. And this all came from this awesome listening topic.

Kathryn Davis: [00:28:39] Thank you. I love that. Thank you so much for being here.

Kathryn Davis: [00:28:41] And don’t forget to join us over on Instagram at Magnify Community and of course, subscribe and listen to the Magnify podcast wherever you get your shows. Thanks for being here! And let’s meet up again next week.