Zeke Hernandez: The Transformative Power of the Gospel and Education

Morgan Jones Pearson

In 2019, 39-year-old Zeke Hernandez was recognized as one of Poets and Quants' Best 40 Under 40 professors in business schools around the world. The Wharton professor was asked what he thinks makes him stand out as a professor. As part of his answer, he replied, "I think too often we incorrectly separate business from other aspects of life that make us human and social beings so I talk about issues pertaining to life, relationships, and character in class every day." This is something Zeke Hernandez not only preaches but also something he practices on a daily basis. Exequiel Zeke Hernandez is an associate professor at Wharton. He publishes pioneering research on the immigration and economic growth as well as corporate strategies designed through alliances acquisitions and divestitures. Zeke is one of the highest-rated teachers at Wharton, where he teaches global strategy courses. He is an alumnus of the University of Minnesota where he received his PhD as well as BYU where he received his undergrad and master's degrees. This is All In, an LDS Living podcast where we ask the question, what does it really mean to be all in the gospel of Jesus Christ? I'm Morgan Pearson. And I am so honored to have Zeke Hernandez on the line with me today. Zeke, welcome.

Zeke Hernandez

Thanks for having me on the show. Morgan. I'm really honored.

Morgan Jones Pearson

Well, I am so excited about this conversation and I'm anxious to be able to learn more about your story because as I prepared for this interview, I read a lot about your business background and your coming to Wharton and your career there. But I get to hear more about the gospel side of your story and so this is really, really exciting and I'm excited to share it with other people. Zeke, your parents grew up in extreme poverty in Uruguay. I wondered if we could start by sharing a little bit of their story because it is part of your story. And we'll go way back, and then we'll bring it forward, if that's okay with you.

Zeke Hernandez

Sure, yeah. I mean, my parents are amazing so it's always good to talk about them. Let's start with my mom, my mother was raised in a remote farming community in Uruguay, Uruguay is a little country in South America. And you know, she came from a long stalk of good people, good parents, honorable people, a long line of farmers who work the land honestly and hard. But mostly toiled to put food on the table. And there wasn't much of a vision or a set of opportunities beyond that. My mom was sent to a little schoolhouse in the farming community, you had to actually go several miles on horseback and so all the kids ages about seven to 11 or 12 would gather. And they'd learn reading and writing and arithmetic. And the idea of the school system was that kids would get a rudimentary education and perform the basic tasks that they would have to as farmers when they were adults. And that was it. That was sort of the extent of education and opportunity. But my mom had something different in her I guess. And when she finished that school system, she wanted to keep going to school and do more. And that led to some arguments and negotiation back and forth, her parents were really strongly against it, because in their mind, education was for the rich. You have to keep in mind that to get more education, you have to move to the city. So the whole family had to move or they had to rent an apartment in the nearest town, and that was expensive. But somehow she prevailed and the arrangement that they came up with was she would get on a bus Monday morning and sort of live Monday through Friday on her own and in a little bedroom, essentially, on her own. And sometimes come home for the weekend. So you know, here's a 12-year-old girl completely alone, trying to get an education in what we would call about sixth or seventh grade. And this was hard. She felt very poor. She felt like an awkward country Girl, and it was just very, very tough. But she managed to be the first one in her family to do high school and eventually got some extra certifications and became an elementary school teacher. My dad also came from real poverty. He was born in a town, not the countryside, but it was the poorest neighborhood of a small town a couple hours away from the farm where my mother grew up and he was raised by my grandma, who was a single mother. My grandma herself was raised by a single mother and couldn't go to school because she had to take care of the kids while my great-grandma worked and so my grandma was completely illiterate, didn't know how to read or write, married very young, had eight children, and then lost her husband to cancer before middle age. My dad was the fourth child in that family. And so you can imagine that's really tough, right? Tough circumstances, not a lot of adult guidance or role models who know what to do in life. But you know, there were two things I think that made a big difference. One of them was, I believe, my grandmother was aware of the disadvantages, she had been illiterate. So she really tried to encourage her kids in her own way to go to school, which meant finish high school, that was sort of the extent of the vision: do high school. And my father did that. He was a smart kid and finished high school. The second thing that made a big difference, and I'll talk more about that, probably later, is that my dad eventually joined the Church when he was 14, because his two older siblings, my aunt and uncle, met the missionaries, my dad was baptized at age 14. And then you know, where the stories converge is that my parents met in high school, they started dating, they're high school sweethearts, they both eventually did high school, they both actually worked as school teachers. But the early years of their marriage and courtship, they were very, very poor, very tough years. They weren't making much money. My dad actually had drifted a little bit from the Church in his teenage years. But when they had their first child, my mom really became interested in the gospel, she joined the Church, my dad's testimony was reignited, and they haven't looked back since and that has made a big difference.

Morgan Jones Pearson

Well I love that it's clear, especially in the case of your mom, that this love for education and love for learning, has been instilled in you your entire life and valuing that and recognizing the difference when you have opportunities for education, versus when you don't. So looking back Zeke, as your your mom joined the Church and your dad became more committed, how would you say that the gospel changed your family's trajectory?

Zeke Hernandez

I mean, I don't know how to overstate the effect that had right? As I was thinking about this, this morning, knowing that we would talk, the scripture that came to mind is John 8:32 which says that "you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free," right? And that's the best way I can put it. When my parents understood the plan of salvation, and really believed it, it just completely changed their vision of everything, of their potential, of our potential meaning their children, of the purpose of families, of life, you know, their ancestors and parents, they were good people, they did the best they could. But when you grow up poor, when you don't have much education, you probably inherit false traditions, bad habits, incorrect assumptions about life, and the gospel of Jesus Christ changed everything, right? Their views on parenting, on why you get an education, on why you should have certain good habits, what you want to teach your kids. And so it just put them on a more elevated track, on a track going in a totally different direction in life. This shows up in many ways that we probably don't have time to talk about. But, you know, one of the things that it did is that my dad, understanding his role as husband, as father, as a person, he started pursuing more education with a totally different vision. He took night classes to get a college degree while we were little, it was kind of tough, a lot of work, he was exhausted. But he had a vision for that and that allowed him to get better employment. And that created some pretty unprecedented opportunities for our family. I think another way to put it, if we were talking about probabilities, just think about the probability that you and I would be talking today, it's essentially zero, right? What should I be doing, I should be a farmer somewhere in Uruguay with very little education and, given my family background, the fact that I'm here and not there is because of my parents embracing the gospel and all the opportunities that came because of that.

Morgan Jones Pearson

So interesting that you say that Zeke because I was just thinking the other day about a situation in my life where right now there's like a certain probability of something. And I had the thought, well, it doesn't really matter what the odds are when you're talking about God and when the belief in God is part of the equation, it kind of has this ability to change everything to change the odds for people.

Zeke Hernandez

What you just said reminds me of this idea that we're here to, to act and not be acted upon. Right. And I think I think what the gospel does is that, not that our circumstances immediately changed, but our circumstances act upon us, but they're not deterministic, right? We can act. And I think the gospel gives us additional tools to to move beyond what the circumstances would dictate. So that just came to mind, as you said that, thanks for that. Thanks for that insight.

Morgan Jones Pearson

Zeke, after being born in Uruguay, you grew up in several different countries, I know that you have a passion for people in all parts of the world. How did growing up and seeing what life was like for people in different parts of the world shape your worldview?

Zeke Hernandez

Yeah, I mean, what you're referring to is one of the remarkable opportunities that came from my parents not just embracing the gospel, but embracing new educational and employment opportunities. And you know, that was that was better work. When I was four, one of the opportunities that came our family's way is that my father got an expatriate assignment to work abroad, he was promoted and sent to work in Costa Rica. And then we spent several years living abroad living overseas, we lived in Guatemala, we lived in Argentina. Throughout those years, we were able to travel a reasonable amount and see parts of the world that I think we had never imagined seeing. Part of the experience actually was attending international schools where the teaching was 100% in English, which is why I speak the language we're speaking. And you know, those schools attracted kids and families from all over the world who their parents might have been on expat assignments like my father. And so that was just amazing. I mean, you can imagine it just completely expands your worldview, I realized that there's lots of different ways of thinking and even interpreting the same experience based on your background and so that made me comfortable with a lot of different and unique cultures. The traveling and seeing people from all walks of life exposed me to really different socioeconomic circumstances so I saw indigenous people in Guatemala living in in real poverty, right? Even worse poverty than like what my parents came from. Sometimes we were around people that were extremely wealthy who had done very well in business or in politics. I witnessed social and political conflict. You know, Guatemala was experiencing a Civil War when I lived there. I fell in love with traveling and I think what it ended up doing for me is helped me realize that when people of different backgrounds come together, they can do really amazing things together if they find harmony, right? Because that variety of experiences and perspectives really enriches whatever you're trying to do, whether it's a community thing or a professional thing. But it's also that harmony is hard to find, right? Because people from different backgrounds clash. So, you know, I saw both sides of it so yeah, just an amazing blessing to grow up that way.

That's awesome. Zeke, you said that you feel like your own personal conversion to the gospel came after a period of doubt in your teenage years? Can you share a little bit about that experience?

Yeah, sure. You know, my own conversion to the gospel was a result of, I think, a few things that clash together. Around the time I was about 14 or 15 years old. By that age, our time living abroad had ended, we were back in Uruguay. And the move back home was a bit traumatic for me. At an age where I missed my friends, I missed the lifestyle we had. And at the same time, my brother who's about four years older than I am, left home to serve a mission. And he and I are very, very close to even to this day. So for some reason, his leaving, it just hit me. It became very real that one day I might go on a mission or that that choice was one that I needed to think about. And it led to a realization that if I had been asked to go serve a mission, right then and there and talk to a stranger about the gospel, I realized that I couldn't honestly tell that stranger that I knew that Jesus Christ was my savior, or that the church had been restored through Joseph Smith. In other words, I didn't have a standalone testimony. I love my parents, but I just wasn't sure if the things they taught me the things that they had embraced, and that had changed their life so much were really true. And doubt crept in, right? For example, I thought, well, maybe the church was a good human institution that really helped them. But was it a divine thing? And that was scary. It was scary to let doubt creep in. And to open the door to the possibility that the restored gospel maybe wasn't true. But you know, as any one of us who was raised in the Church, so to speak, you also have things that stay with you. And so, you know, I was keenly aware that Joseph Smith had had similar questions and doubts when he was about exactly that age. I remembered Alma's invitation to experiment upon the Word and plant the seed and see if it grows. So that analogy had stayed with me and, and so I decided to run the experiment, so to speak, and what I'm about to describe next, for anyone who has grown up or been in the Church a long time, it was nothing novel or unique about it, I just, I said, Well, I'm going to I'm going to try this out. So what I did was I first set the goal that I would read the Book of Mormon every day until I finished it, I hadn't done that before. And I also decided that I would pray on my knees as honestly as I could every day before reading the book. And then I also told myself that I'd just keep doing that until I knew one way or another, if the gospel was true. And it took several months, it would be a lie to say that within a few days, boom, the confirmation came. And I think the first thing I noticed was just that I kind of overall felt better about myself, as I went about the day, there was just a little bit more of a bounce in my step. And then I noticed that my desires started to change. I was kind of more drawn to good things, I wanted to treat people more kindly. I was also drawn away from toxic people, from toxic activities. And then, many months in, I was reading the Book of Mormon one day, and I just had a really powerful experience a really powerful confirmation that it was all true. And I knew that it was a feeling of the Spirit, that the channel between heaven and me was open. It wasn't a human emotion. It wasn't some human thought. It wasn't anything like that. It was divine. And it was beyond me. And it's one of the surest things I've ever felt. And of course, since then, I've had other confirmatory experiences. But that was the beginning. And, like I said, I know many people who are listening to this podcast understand what I'm describing, some people might not, but the point is not that the process was unique, but I knew for myself, right? And that was a real valuable thing.

Morgan Jones Pearson

The interesting thing to me is the process may not have been unique. But I think there is power in intentional effort and setting that intention, like 'this is what I desire to gain from this, and this is what I'm going to do.' And I think that that's awesome that you did that. How would you say now in the position that you're in and with your career? How does the gospel shape your hunger for education and knowledge?

Zeke Hernandez

You know, that's a great question because it gets at something that was, to me, really unexpected about becoming converted to the restored gospel. I mean, I expected, I certainly was open to the possibility that it wasn't. But if it was, my expectation was that I would sort of live life by the Spirit and that that would bless me in the spiritual part the "church" or the family part of my life. And it's done that for sure. But something really unexpected happened even at that young age, which was the moment the Spirit came into my life, the moment I knew what it felt like, and I lived by it, the light of the Spirit just supercharged my desire to seek for truth everywhere I could find it. I mean, certainly in the scriptures, in the words of the prophets, but also in all the other ways that God gives us truth, whether it's through science, or literature, or art or nature, just all the beautiful channels that He has given us to learn things that are good for us and true. And so I didn't just learn the gospel through the Spirit, I became a better student, I became super motivated to find truth anywhere I could find it. And it just reminds me a bit of, you know, it's okay to quote a few scriptures here. But, you know, in Section 88, we receive the commandment to seek learning even by study and also by faith. Right? But notice that it's not one or the other. It's both and they're intimately related. And, you know, earlier in that section, the Lord talks about all the things He wants us to learn, and I'm paraphrasing a bit but we might be familiar with the words of like, learning things, both in heaven and in earth, and under the earth, things which are and which have been and which must come to pass, things that are abroad, the wars and perplexities of nations, and knowledge of countries and kingdoms. And all of that is, is so that we will be better prepared to serve Him and to serve others. And so that was a big part of my experience of the gospel is the knowledge and light and truth that comes into our lives and in all aspects. And I think that hunger for education and knowledge is a big part of I guess how I experienced conversion. But it's led to a real lifelong love of learning as a way of progressing. One of my favorite scriptures is in Section 50, verse 24, of Doctrine and Covenants. And it says "that which is of God is light, and he that receiveth light and continueth in God receiveth more light, and that light grows brighter and brighter until the perfect day." And that's a great expression, I think of what I'm talking about. And I'm sure that had a lot to do with eventually choosing an academic career for me.

Morgan Jones Pearson

Well, and I wanted to ask you about that Zeke, you were initially working as an accountant, and you recognized that that was not, that was not giving you life. And so I wondered kind of if you could share a little bit about how you ended up transitioning from being an accountant and being in the business world to then entering the world of academia.

Zeke Hernandez

Yeah, I mean, I think this is this is where some interesting things from the past, and perhaps having been raised by parents who really experienced poverty, all these things clash, right? And so I majored in accounting and college and accounting is a really great career for many people. I was in between undergraduate years and my doctorate degree, I spent about a year working at a large technology company as an accountant and doing some finance work. And I just found no fulfillment in it. I really disliked it. It was repetitive for me, intellectually, not very stimulating. And I want to pause I have many friends who are accountants that have great careers. And so I'm not making a general statement about senses.

Morgan Jones Pearson

This is not an accountant bash session.

Zeke Hernandez

It's not that at all, it was just not for me, right? You know, I just felt like I wasn't in the right place. I remember for example, looking many years ahead and thinking well, what if I have my boss's boss's boss's boss's job? Right, you know, 10 promotions down the road. And it was just clear that I didn't want to do that. I just didn't feel like I had any mission, that it wasn't part of my mission, my purpose in life. So my dear wife, Kendra, and I had a lot of conversations during that time. And she said, 'Look, I don't want you to come home. Feeling that way every day. Right? So demoralized by what you do.' And so there was a lot of introspection and prayer and fasting, and I realized that my heart really was in academia. I love teaching. I love research. I just, you know, learning and knowledge, as I just said, are just a big part of, I guess, how I experience the world. You know, an outsider might say you're a nerd and they'd be right. I guess I wasn't nerd. So I quit my job. And I went back to school for five years to get a PhD and become a professor. And that was a long time with no income. To her credit, Kendra was incredibly supportive. But it's been so worth it. I love what I do, I feel that I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing with my life. And there's a big difference waking up feeling that way versus waking up feeling that you're going to a job, just for the money, because the career path I was on was very lucrative, predictably lucrative. But it just didn't feel right to do just that.

Morgan Jones Pearson

Well I think that it's such an important note that different things give different people fulfillment, and there's not one path for every person. Zeke, how would you say that an understanding of the gospel perspective on light and knowledge which you touched on previously from those scriptures in Doctrine and Covenants, how has our understanding of light and knowledge and the way that our knowledge goes with us into the next life shaped your approach in your work, especially as you teach students?

Zeke Hernandez

Let me back up a little bit right to what I was just saying about this, this career change. For me, I think, what one of the things I learned, having been in a profession where I was just in it for the money, perhaps because I did not want to be poor, but not much more than that is that I just had a realization that God wants us to work not just to provide and be self sufficient. But there was a really wise man on my mission, he actually wasn't a member of the Church. But we had a decent relationship. And his motto was work is service. That was his motto, I think he was spot on and our work, what we do every day, is one of the arenas in which we serve other people. So anyway, that's perhaps one of the lessons I got out of that. So to answer the question, you just asked me, the way I would address it is that the Gospel, it informs our everyday professions, if we approach our professions or what we do as one of the arenas in which we serve. And so, for me, teaching future business leaders is really cool, it's a great opportunity to serve them, by bringing to my classes the best, the most cutting edge knowledge so that they're using true principles in what they do. And it also informs my research, because I feel a desire to research topics that are useful, that are practical for the world, and to do it in a way that is true, and that I'm trying to bring to bear the best that science can offer. And I think that the other dimension to that answer is that I really believe strongly that it's not just that our jobs are a big part of how we serve the world. But I think God is willing to guide us as much in our professional endeavors as he is in our gospel or church or family lives. Because we serve in both of those arenas, in all of those arenas. And so I think he gives us light and truth and the professional aspects of our lives as well as in our, quote, gospel lives. You know, I think one great example of that is our Prophet President Nelson, right. I mean he was a incredibly competent world famous heart doctor, not just as a practitioner, as a surgeon, but also as a researcher. And one of the stories he's shared often is about how he received divine inspiration when he was developing an artificial heart, right? And he talks about how this scripture that all kingdoms have a law given unto them really inspired him to learn the laws that govern the human heart. He felt that there was divine help, that he could draw on in that really important part of his life, his profession. And so that's kind of what I'm talking about. And that's the model that I've tried to follow in everything I do. Now, I'll finish with a disclaimer, I'm not trying to claim that everything I do, everything I teach is flawless or divinely inspired. Right? I think human knowledge progresses in fits and starts. Sometimes we get things right, sometimes we get them wrong, then we discover, you know, a theory or evidence that supersedes outdated knowledge. And so it's not that we get it perfectly, but I think the direction matters, right? That growth in truth and knowledge matters. And why not? Why not try to seek divine help in our endeavors? Certainly in mine, I try to.

Morgan Jones Pearson

I love that idea of kind of where you're trending, are you trending in in which direction? And I want to know Zeke this is not just something that you're saying, because you're being interviewed on a church-related podcast. In another interview that I read with you, you said, referring to your students, I really care deeply about them becoming good moral leaders, I also want them to be happy with their personal and professional choices. I think too often, we incorrectly separate business from other aspects of life that make us human and social beings. I love that point. I love the idea that we kind of create these artificial separations, or dividers in our own lives, and think, Okay, well, this is my professional life. This is my spiritual life. But really, all of those things blend together.

Zeke Hernandez

The way I would talk about that is, you know, let me just sort of address it in two parts. And I'll give you one that's like very specific to my field of business. But then one that I think is more general. So you know, obviously, I study and teach business. And, you know, business I think is often seen as something like dirty or kind of a heartless profession, right? One of my most hated phrases is it's not personal, it's just business. I'm sure you've heard this before. And it's as if the fact that we're doing business justifies like cheating or taking advantage of someone else, because hey, this is impersonal. It's just about money or something like that. And I do know people who truly see business that way, as a dog eat dog zero sum, I'm out there to destroy you. But I don't. And I actually believe that the best business leaders don't either, because it's just one of many human endeavors. And so it's not only like unethical to have a separate code of behavior for business than for what we do in our families or our communities, I just think it's like fundamentally illogical, because they're all part of the same social world that we live in. So that's kind of the business specific take on that. The more general point, and I've thought a lot about this, because I remember for some years, trying to be sort of a good committed member of the church and disciple of Christ, thinking, why is it that I can't just spend all my time trying to serve God, put myself apart and read the scriptures? And why do I have to do these other things, like, have a job or, you know, all these other distractions, or volunteer in the community, go buy groceries, you know, the busy aspects of life. Why can't I just lock myself in the temple and worship God all day long? And the answer, one day just hit me in a very clear way, which is like, all these other things aren't distractions, they're like exactly the point, right? Those are like the sandboxes, where we serve Him, where we serve God. And so it's artificial to separate gospel and church from job or community or whatever we do every day, my commute every day. That that's exactly where I show God, that I want to serve Him and the way I treat others as I go about those things. And so, if that's the case, not only are these things connected, but we should also expect God to inspire and guide us and all of those things. So that's kind of the full circle part of it for me.

Morgan Jones Pearson

I love that. And I love the way that you put it as sandboxes. Like those are the sandboxes in which we are expected to show our love for God and to to become like God ultimately. So I think that's profound. You said that when you entered your doctoral program, you realize that you had to make a change. And that change was from being a learner of truth, to then becoming a producer of truth. And I wondered what you mean by that? Can you elaborate?

Zeke Hernandez

Yeah, yeah. Maybe some some strange wording in there. But what I was referring to is if you think about all the years that a lot of us put into our education, at least those of us who are fortunate to get one, they're all about consuming the knowledge that other people discovered or produced over many years, right? So whether you're studying a theory, a mathematical principle, an algorithm, a formula, a history, a textbook, a poem, right? You're really trying to learn and absorb knowledge that somebody else created or discovered, and they digested it for you. You take tests that are all about how well do you absorb knowledge. And by the time most people are done with something like college, we're actually really good at consuming knowledge, right? When I started a doctoral program, I was kind of like a super student, I proven that I could learn really well. But then I realized that my training was all about how to produce original research. And the name of the game wasn't about learning other people's ideas, but coming up with original ideas of my own, pushing the boundaries of knowledge. And so I wasn't evaluated anymore by how well could I digest someone else's thoughts or ideas, but how novel are the ideas I'm coming up with how rigorously can I prove them, right with evidence, and that was really eye opening, because what it made me realize actually was how much effort there is to produce a reliable little bit of knowledge, like think about a textbook in college. You read one paragraph, and behind that paragraph, there might be decades of research just to verify that what that paragraph says is correct. And so it gave me an appreciation for the other side of knowledge, the production of it, but also made me realize that being the producer is very different than being the consumer. For example, you have to develop a healthy skepticism about what other scientists did before you, you have to challenge it, come up with a better answer with a better explanation. You have to go really deep into the scientific method, right? That is, how do we know that this evidence is better than that other evidence? And then you have to learn to persuade others that like your new ideas are worth it, right? That they have to unlearn what they knew before and believe this new thing. So all of that was new, it was exciting, but it was also really intimidating, because I was around extremely smart people, right? Many of them, most of them, way smarter than I am. And I thought, well, how can puny little me add anything useful to this world, right, a little bit of knowledge, a new paragraph to a textbook or, or something like that. And you know that can be daunting. And I remember in that process, I came across a scripture that gave me both comfort and confidence. And that scripture is Abraham 3:19. And it says the following it says these two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other, there shall be another more intelligent than they, I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all. And I was like, wow. Okay, so it actually doesn't matter how low I am in the hierarchy of intelligent, right, there might be a lot of people above me. But through the Holy Ghost, I can directly plug into the most intelligent of them all, and maybe draw some inspiration that goes beyond my own wisdom to maybe produce some of that knowledge that's useful and true, so to speak. And that was just really, really helpful and a way to connect my job with what the gospel offers.

Morgan Jones Pearson

That's amazing. I love that thought so much. Zeke, you're considered by many to be an expert on immigration. I wondered, what do you wish that people within the church understood about this topic? Because I understand it's very complex and can be at times polarizing? And why do you feel that it's something that the Lord wants you to devote time to and to shed light on?

Zeke Hernandez

Yeah, well, I would start with this. In the New Testament, there's one of the most quoted scriptures and by all Christians, not just members of our particular church, "I was a stranger, and ye took me in," right, is one of the scriptures that we quote, a lot. And I think that's the simplest way I could articulate from the perspective of a disciple of Jesus Christ how we should treat the foreigner. I mean, I think Jesus taught us pretty clearly that where the rubber meets the road is how we treat the stranger or the outside or the outcast, the disadvantaged. And there's lots of people who fall under that label. Immigrants and refugees are just some of the most obvious perhaps, also some of the most controversial, but I think how we treat them is one of the real tests of our Christianity, of our discipleship. And as you said, I'm entering really controversial and complicated territory here. But, we know that immigration is really divisive in lots of countries, you know, nowhere more so than here in the United States. where you and I live. And I'm sure that many people listening to me speak right now have strong opinions about this due to their political background or life experiences. But I think it's important to make this distinction: Insofar as there's reasonable debates to be had about how we handle immigration, I think those are at the level of policy and politics. But at the level of how we treat individual people and individual immigrants, I don't really see a lot of disagreement among Christians or any person of faith, right? I would go to basic principles: Love one another, the scripture I just quoted, 'I was a stranger, and ye took me in,' I think those are paramount principles at the individual level. And so I would say, you know, as a member of the church as someone who tries to emulate Christ, that's perhaps the most important thing in terms of how we treat each other individually. And so I realize that the answer I gave is not what I write about professionally. It's not my research. But that's my sort of gospel perspective on it. If it's okay with you, though, I'd like to say a little bit more, perhaps at that level of policy that we debate on, if that's all right. So my specific expertise focuses on how immigrants affect our economic well being that is, you know, is it good? Are we more prosperous if we let immigrants in or not into our countries? And what I'm about to say, I should preface by this, I didn't really set out to study immigration. It's not like I had some preconceived opinion about immigrants, you know, because I am one and I thought, 'Oh, I'm gonna go justify, you know, something that I already thought about.' In fact, I have no interest in studying immigration, what I really wanted to understand was economic prosperity, right? How does business across borders affect economic growth and prosperity. But the more I followed the evidence, and the data and tried to be really rigorous about understanding that topic, the more I realized that immigrants are a hugely positive factor for creating economic prosperity. I think most people listening to me right now would agree that we want investment in our communities, because those investments create jobs, we want people to come up with new ideas and products that make our lives easier and better. And you know, after 15 years of research, a lot of it my own, but also just the research that other colleagues of mine have done, there's really, really clear, very compelling evidence that places with more immigrants attract more investments that create jobs. I'll give you just a silly example. But, you know, it makes the point, like the state of Arkansas has an unexpectedly high number of Japanese residents for quirky reasons. And so Arkansas gets a much higher than normal amount of investment from Japanese companies, right? That create jobs. Why? Because those immigrants play a big role in connecting Arkansas for the economy of Japan. And there's other research that shows that the businesses that immigrants start create more jobs. And those businesses produce a lot of the technological and product innovations that make our lives more comfortable. For example, most of us use Zoom or Google every day, right? These are companies started by immigrants. Some people like to dance salsa, right? Salsa music, that musical genre was created by immigrants in New York. It wasn't created in Latin America, you know, we eat foods like tortilla wraps that were also like kind amalgams of different kinds of foods, as immigrants and natives came together. So a lot of the things that make us economically better off exist thanks to immigrants. But whether it's we want jobs, investment, innovation, it turns out you can't really separate the movement of people from the movement of ideas and goods and services that make our lives better. So what's the upshot of all that, right? And by the way, I just summarized, like 15 years of mind-numbingly slow research. But it's really important to know that I think, right? Having the correct facts about that would allow you and me to be better informed citizens when we vote when we advocate for immigration and economic policies. And so that matters as a member of the Church, but I think it just matters in general. So personally, I've just felt that that's part of what I'm here for right to shed light on this topic. It's part of my professional mission. I feel drawn and inspired to do the work and it's not to score political points. It's not to defend some agenda. It's just to bring a little bit more clarity and truth to bear on the matter. Is everything I've researched on the topic perfect? Probably not. But I think the general direction again, of where the science is taking us is pretty clear. And so that's kind of where I come from on that topic.

Morgan Jones Pearson

I think that's super helpful. And I think the thing that's nice and I sometimes just feel so lucky to have the chance to talk to people like you Zeke, that are experts on a certain topic, because I think we see so much in the news. And we hear so much in the news, but it feels like it's coming at us with an angle or a slant. And to be able to cut right to the heart of the topic, and to talk to somebody that has spent a lot of time digging into that research, I think is, is a blessing. And I'm grateful to you for being willing to share, like you said, it didn't feel like we were just flying through 15 years of research so that was fun. Zeke, one of the things that you are known for and loved for by the students in your classes at Wharton is what you call Zekrets. And so in each class, you share things that you've learned in various aspects of life, it doesn't necessarily have to tie into the topic of that day's class. But I'm curious about whether the gospel ever influences these Zekrets, and whether you might be able to give us, and I imagine that we've probably touched on some as we've gone through our conversation today, but if you might be willing to give us an example of one Zekret.

Zeke Hernandez

Yes, sure. I'd be glad to do this, though, I have to be a little careful with this answer for this reason. So I think in general, given everything I just said, I think it's impossible that the values and principles that I get from the gospel don't influence everything I do at work. So yes, that includes things I probably share with my students. Where have to draw a line though, and be a little careful is that also part of the professionalism I have to exhibit and the duty I have is to leave out preaching my personal religious beliefs in the classroom, right? That's not the arena to do that. I do that as sort of respect for my students who, they themselves might bring beliefs around beliefs, and it would be unfair for them to impose that on the classroom. So, in these so-called Zekrets, I don't bring anything in that, that I don't believe would apply wouldn't apply to like a pluralistic audience with many beliefs so it's more general stuff that I bring in. So yeah, the point of these moments of sharing is just to try to get at this point of the inseparability between like business and life, and bring in things about values, things that I think can help my students perhaps have a better life or be more ethical in the decisions they make and those kinds of things. And you know, we've covered topics, like how to choose a career or how to use your career for service, the importance of being thankful, how to use money wisely, things like that. But you asked for an example. So I'll give you one, one of the first ones I share with students in my class. So I show them a video, demonstrating that actually most of us are tying our shoes incorrectly. So it turns out that the way that most of us were taught [to tie] our shoes involves a knot that comes untied pretty frequently. That's why we have to retie shoes frequently throughout the day. But there's actually a really simple solution to this. And a lot of us were taught like the bunny ears technique. And so you go over the knot in one direction. But it turns out that if you just go around the knot the other way, instead of from back to forward, you go from forward to back, then you end up with a strong knot that doesn't come untied. And so that becomes sort of a way into talking about how there's a lot of areas in our lives where we actually think we know it all but we actually don't. In areas that are way more important than tying our shoes. And so that ends up in a conversation about why we often fail to see better ways of doing things. And what I suggest is that it comes down to pride, right? Pride blinds us to the ability to keep learning because we kind of think hey, I got this right. There's nothing more to learn. And so the cure for pride is its opposite. It's humility. And so we talk about the importance of humility in business. Because you know, business people often like to act overconfident and I say, No, no, it's the opposite. You should be really humble, be willing to say I don't know. Because that humility will lead you to never stop learning or improving. And so that's an example of what a Zekret is about. I should add one more thing, which is that I actually didn't come up with the label Zekrets. It's not like I was trying to come up with some personal branding. It's just one day before class, one of my students said, Hey, are you going to share with us some life advice? And I said, Yeah, I will. And he said, Oh, well, why don't you start calling them Zekrets and the other students kind of love the label and the play on words. And it's kind of become a kind of taken on a life of its own at Wharton, I guess.

Morgan Jones Pearson

That's awesome. It's stuck? Well, I think that's such a great idea and a great way to start your classes. And I'm jealous of the students that get it get to sit in your classes Zeke. My last question for you is, what does it mean to you to be all in the gospel of Jesus Christ?

Zeke Hernandez

Another great question. And I knew it was coming, of course, because it's your podcast. So I have been thinking about this one. So I want to address it in two aspects or two dimensions of what it means to be all in. And I would say, to me, there's like a broad dimension and a deep dimension to it. So the broad part of it is perhaps going back to something we discussed earlier, which is all in means that the gospel is the most important aspect of our lives in all the various different roles, all the various different things that we do, without any artificial separation between them, right? So we broadly apply the gospel to everything, not just to our role, as you know, mother, father, church member, but but everything we do. So it's the core of how we approach every different role we have, instead of being Christians just in some parts of our life. So it's kind of the all encompassing part of all in. But I think then there's a deep part, which is with within each one of those roles, or different aspects of our lives, how deeply do we apply the gospel of Jesus Christ in each one? Meaning, are we just superficial disciples say, at home or at work and in our callings? Or do we put all our heart, mind, and strength in each one of those aspects to try to really apply the gospel as best we can? So that's both the broad and a deep answer. And it's, of course, the work of a lifetime. But it's beautiful, joyful work.

Morgan Jones Pearson

Well, Zeke, I want to applaud you because I think that you are somebody that practices what you preach, I noticed that I was reading an interview on Poets and Quants, which is for those that don't know, a big MBA school website. And they were interviewing Zeke because he was being honored as one of the top 40 professors. And they asked you what your favorite book was. And you said "The Book of Mormon, the actual book, not the musical." And I just thought that was so cool that in a very secular interview, you were willing to say that the Book of Mormon was your favorite book. And so I appreciate you being someone who not only says that we shouldn't separate those different aspects of our lives, but lives that and I applaud you for that and I'm grateful, so grateful for your time. Thank you for taking the time to be with us today.

Zeke Hernandez

Oh, thank you. It was a pleasure, and I hope, for whoever's listening, thank you for listening. I hope it's valuable to you.

Morgan Jones Pearson

We are so grateful to Zeke Hernandez for joining us on today's episode. A big thanks to Derek Campbell of Mix at Six studios for his help with making each and every episode of this podcast sound so great. And thank you so much for listening. We'll look forward to being with you again next week.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai