Matt Whitaker: A Man on a Mission to Tell 1 Teenage Boy’s Story

The following transcript is intended to aid in your study. However, while we try to go through the transcript, our transcripts are primarily computer-generated and often contain errors. Please forgive the transcripts' imperfections.

Morgan Jones Pearson

In 1941, Helmuth Hubener a teenage boy and two friends from his Latter-day Saint branch began to feel that something wasn't right about the Nazi regime that was being bought into all around them. In fact, they felt it was terribly wrong. Helmuth set out to use the only weapon he knew how to operate: a typewriter. Matt Whitaker is a man on a mission to tell Helmuth's story. In fact, he has been on that mission for over 20 years. The road to the fulfillment of this dream has not been easy. But Matt recently partnered with Angel Studios, the studio behind "The Chosen" and it feels like his dream may soon become a reality. Matt has previously worked on beloved Latter-day Saint films, "Saints and Soldiers" as well as two of the Work and The Glory movies. This is All In, an LDS Living podcast where we ask the question, what does it really mean to be all in the gospel of Jesus Christ? I'm Morgan Pearson, and I am so excited to have Matt Whitaker on the line with me today. Matt, welcome.

Matt Whitaker

Thank you, Morgan. So happy to be on here.

Morgan Jones Pearson

Well, today, we're gonna be talking about a project that Matt has now devoted a good chunk of his life to, Matt, you've been working on this project for a very, very long time. Is that right?

Unknown Speaker

That is true. Starting way back in 2001, let's see what year were you born? Is it okay to ask that? How old were you in 2001?

Morgan Jones Pearson

Yeah, I was born in 1989. So I would have been 11 or 12. Around that time?

Unknown Speaker

Well, when you were 11, or 12, I was I was in my 30s. And I was actually, I'm a filmmaker. So I was I was working on a documentary for PBS about WWII. And it was about members of the church who had served in WWII. So my dad was a b-24 bomber pilot. And I've always been just fascinated and very interested in all things WWII. And in in this documentary, we were I was interviewing veterans of WWII, members of the Church who were American and British. But also I was interviewing veterans from the other side who had served in in Hitler's army, who were also at the time members of the Church, you know, even when they were serving in the army. And it was just a very, very interesting experience. And while I was kind of immersed in that, a friend of mine that was working on it with me asked if I'd ever heard of a young German teenager named Helmuth Hubener, who, in Nazi Germany who had run a resistance group led this resistance group of other teenagers. I said, No, I've haven't heard of that. But I'm interested. And he said, I think the last surviving member of the group is still alive. And I think he lives about 45 minutes away from us. Should we try and see if we can track him down? I said, Heck yeah man, I'm in. And we didn't know how to reach Him. So we actually opened up the phone book, we knew his name. And we found him in the phone book, called him up. And then, you know, introduced ourselves and asked if he would be open to the idea of having us come and maybe sharing his story. And then his response was Yeah sure, come on up. And so we went up to his home, and they're sitting in his living room, he told a story that has changed the rest of my life. He told a story of his best friend, 16 year old Helmuth Hubener—who they knew each other from church—they all went, you know, went to church and another best friend Rudi Wobbe. And Helmuth had already begun writing up and typing up anti-Hitler, anti- Nazi leaflets. And at first by himself was putting them out on the streets of Hamburg at night, which was obviously extremely dangerous. But he recruited his two best friends to join him in that and they did. And Karl (Heinz Schnibbe) shared this incredible story that's a story of bravery and courage and, and trauma, all these things. And I tell you, I walked out of his house that day, just just saying to myself, I have to tell this story. More people need to know this story. And so I did a PBS documentary back in 2002, we shot with him, we actually got a chance to take Karl back over to Germany. So here's this man in his late 70s, back over to Germany, and some of the places they lived even after they had been arrested, some of the cells that they were held were still in existence, and to walk into some of these little rooms with the bars and the windows with him, and just the feelings and the experiences and the things that he shared. It was just just really unbelievable. It really sank deep into my heart.

Morgan Jones Pearson

That's amazing. Well, and the thing that I love about this whole thing, Matt, is that you did not stop at creating this documentary, you have continued to work toward this idea of what was originally going to be a movie. And now what hopefully will be a limited series. But I wondered, you know, as I was preparing for this interview and watching some of watching the documentary and watching some of the other materials, I wondered what it was about that first interaction with Karl that left such an impression on you that made you feel like you had to do something with this story.

Unknown Speaker

You know that? That is a good question. And I've, of course, over the years asked myself especially at times when things were rough, I was like, why am I doing this? Why can't I let this go? You know, what was it about what Karl told me that day, and in subsequent conversations that we had that is sunk so deep, and I don't have a perfect answer. But one thing that I've realized is that I believe that there is, across humanity, this innate deep connection to stories where someone sacrifices their life for a greater good, where they're sacrificing their life to save someone else, or, or standing up for something when they know, that they're putting their own [lives in danger]. You know, we have this desperate, inborn innate, need to live. And yet they're willing to subjugate that to help someone else. And Karl's story that he told me about Helmuth and what Helmuth had done, I think, reached me and I think reaches all of us on a on a very deep level. And I even do tie it back, I think, and this is just my opinion, but I think that it ties back to the Savior and that premortal connection. Again, this is wonderful Morgan to be able to talk about it. I don't get to talk about it this way when I'm sitting in meetings in Los Angeles with producers and things like that, of course, I can't delve into this aspect of it, but I love that I can here. But this premortal connection and gratitude that we feel for that person who said, send me I'll do it, and so that idea of self sacrifice, the ultimate self sacrifice, I think resonates and echoes throughout humanity. And so when we find those stories, when I hear those stories, man, they resonate deeply with me. And I believe that's a big part of of why Karl's story that he told me about Helmuth, and their sacrifice that they did for the truth and for what was right, why I can't let it go.

Morgan Jones Pearson

Well, I love what you said about being able to talk about this in a way that you can't a lot of the time, because that's one thing that I've told people about this podcast is they've said, like, you know, are people comfortable talking about their faith? And I usually say the amazing thing is how much you find that these people, that oftentimes are working in even more secular work than what you do, that they have this desire to talk about their faith because they don't get to other times. And so I think it's so fun today that we'll have the chance. We'll make sure that people have the resources that you've shared with me the documentary, so they can check that out if they want to. But I think that it's important for people to be able to hear the unique aspects that apply to members of our church as we go through this discussion today. So I wonder if one effective way may be to allow you to share more of these three boys story would be to have you outline some of the biggest lessons that you feel like the story teaches, and maybe why those lessons have resonated so much with you over the time that you've been working on this project?

Unknown Speaker

Yeah, I think I have something to say about that. And I may need to give some more context to the story and share a little bit of what Carl shared with me and to have that firsthand experience. I was hearing from someone who said, you know, I was there I was with Helmuth and we were, we were being chased by the Gestapo. And, you know, those kinds of things. It was a firsthand experience that he was sharing, but Helmuth grew up in the church, there in Homburg attended this little branch, but they grew up singing the same hymns that we have grown up singing and in fact, that a lot of Christians sing, and one that Carl mentioned to me was "Do what is right, let the consequence follow." And they grew up singing that and so for Helmuth, when you know he grew up, again just kind of inculcated and surrounded with the propaganda of Hitler and Nazi Germany. And what happened was his older brother, who was also a faithful member of the Church, who was serving in the German army had come home from France, and he smuggled with him a shortwave radio. And if you know anything about about that, in Nazi Germany, they had what they called the People's radio. And it was a terrible little radio that only got about three stations, and you could only hear what Hitler wanted you to hear. Whereas with this shortwave radio helmet, he turned it on, and started listening to radio broadcasts from the BBC, and from America and from other places. And at that time, the BBC was broadcasting in the German language, and they were broadcasting not propaganda, they were broadcasting the truth, and intentionally trying to reach out to German citizens who had access to shortwave radios, to let them know what was really going on, and Helmuth heard these and intuitively knew that he was hearing the truth. And I don't fully understand how he gathered that. But the way Karl explained it was that you listen to the propaganda radio, and it was just all victories all the time. And the German army was undefeatable. And he was listening, when he listened to the BBC, he would hear victories, but also defeats and it just sounded, he just realized he was getting a much more full picture than that. And this kid who grew up singing, "Do what is right, let the consequence follow," took that next step. So he didn't just realize, oh, this is true. I'm gonna keep listening. He had that courage to say I have to share this with others. And in their little branch, he was the Branch Secretary. And his job was to type letters to the German soldiers from their branch who were serving in the army. Well, he borrowed that typewriter, took it home, and then started on that church typewriter typing up these anti-Hitler, anti-Nazi flyers. Before that he was on the Nazi fast track. He had a job working for the government at City Hall, had access there to banned books. So banned literature banned authors, like William Shakespeare, and Schiller, and Heinrich Mann, all these different authors that had been banned. He had access to them in this archive. And so we know that he was reading, that he was listening to the BBC, he was also just putting things together on his own. And so when he started typing up the truth in these flyers, we have copies of some of the flyers that he wrote, and it is unbelievable. He's predicting things that are going to happen. And they did happen, they ended up happening, he's predicting the Germany's going to lose the war at a time when they were dominating. And he would say, this is why and, and those things happened. So to get back to your question, we see this, you know, he was doing that at night during the week. And then Sundays, he was going to church, and he was passing the sacrament and participating in this branch. One of the aspects of the story that to me is really poignant and powerful, and frankly, a little nuanced or complex, is that the branch president in that branch in Hamburg, a faithful member of the Church. I had the privilege of meeting with two of his sons, just a devout member of the Church, he was also a devout member of the Nazi Party, and really, really believed it. And sometimes he would begin the meetings with the salute and Heil Hitler. And for some people that just seemed normal and natural. And for other members of the branch, it didn't seem right at all. But that was the that was the environment that Helmuth was going to church in. And one crucial moment for him. He had a friend in the branch who was just a couple years older than he who was named was Salomon Schwartz and Salomon was a convert to the church, he was Jewish. And one Sunday, they showed up to church and there was a sign that had been put on the door by the branch president that said, Jews not allowed to enter, which of course, you saw all over the city by that point. This was in late 30s, early 40s. But they just had that one, Salomon and his sister had joined the church and those were the only Jews in that branch. And it was traumatic and shortly after that Solomon was arrested and eventually ended up in a concentration camp. That convergence of having the radio and having access to the truth and and then having his good friend banished from his branch, but also then arrested and taken and disappearing, must have been a last straw for him and was part of the motivation. He picked up in my view, he picked up really the only weapon that he knew how to use. And that was a typewriter. You know, by all accounts, he wasn't athletic, he wasn't big. He wasn't, you know, he didn't have a gun or any of those things. He had a typewriter. And that's why this, this LDS kid, started typing up the truth and putting it out.

Morgan Jones Pearson

Wow. Well, I want to unpack a couple of those lessons a little bit more and kind of highlight a couple of the things that you you mentioned. It struck me as I was preparing that this is a unique story of friendship, you mentioned that it was like, this boy being shut out was the straw that broke the camel's back. What do you think these boys understood about loyalty that maybe we could benefit or learn from?

Unknown Speaker

Karl told me that because they grew up, they were playing together when they were five and six years old. And by the time that they were teenagers in the Church, in Nazi Germany at that time, the branch really was kind of that was your family. It really was this very close...if you've spend some time in some of the small branches or wards out in the mission field, as they say, there is a real closeness that we may not always experience here along the Wasatch Front. But these two boys that he reached out to were family. And so there was this commitment, Karl said that after they had started operating, you know, and started putting out flyers together, they made a pact with each other, they made a promise to each other. And Helmuth actually told them, he said, If I ever get caught, I will not give up your names. No, I'll just take all the blame on me. And that both Karl and Rudi each made that same promise to each other and to him. So it's actually beautiful to see this, this little group of three boys, three teenage boys involved in something that, yes, must have been exciting on one level, but also they knew was extremely dangerous, what they were doing, but they made this very, very meaningful and important promise to each other, that they were going to be loyal to each other that they were not going to—again, if any one of them got caught, it would end there. That was put to the ultimate test about a year later to jump forward in the story. So these these boys, this resistance group operated for about a year throughout 1941. And as they started putting out these leaflets, of course, some of them were getting turned in and the Gestapo was finding them and reading them. The Gestapo was just convinced that this was a university professor, whoever was writing these was some communist University professor or something. And when they finally tracked down Helmuth at his office, the beginning of 1942, and arrested him, again, they thought they were just arresting somebody who was putting them out, but they were going to find out who was the adult behind this, who was writing these. They arrested him on February 5, 1940, 80 years ago, and then began to interrogate and torture him for information. And it's interesting, because I've read their notes and their records that they took of that interrogation process. I've read the English translations of them. And the Gestapo used terms like we use deciduous persuasion to convince this young man to share. Well, of course, you know, those are euphemisms for we tortured him and we beat him. Helmuth lasted for five days of keeping completely silent about anybody. But finally after five days, he did give them the names of his two friends of Karl and Rudi, he didn't tell them everything. In fact, he told them very little beyond that, and that's why Karl, you know, because right after he gave them their names, Karl and Rudi were arrested and questioned and interrogated and tortured, as well. Again, still asking all of them who are the adults, who's really behind this? And eventually, the Gestapo realized that all of this had been masterminded by this 16 year old young man, but the fact that he did finally give their names was, I'm sure traumatizing for Helmuth, that in that moment he wasn't able to keep keep his promise. Several months later, he was able to redeem himself. And that's a beautiful part of the story as well.

Morgan Jones Pearson

Well, I don't want to give away all the parts of the story. But another thing that I wanted to highlight, you mentioned the branch president. And obviously, that is a complex part of the story, especially for Latter-day Saints, when we understand the structure of the Church and organization of the Church. And I thought it was interesting in the documentary, you talk to a professor who mentioned that when he tells this story to his university students, they often are shocked that a member of the Church would be part of the Nazi Party. And he says, you know, would you be shocked that a Latter Day Saint is a Republican or a Democrat? Well, that's the way that it felt at that time. It was just are you part of it or are you not? And so there are some complexities as it relates to this situation. How would you explain that to those of us that are not quite as well versed in the nature of the political situation?

Unknown Speaker

It is shocking for a lot of us when we hear that, that this branch president was a devout Nazi. But I think it's important to remember that this was Nazi Germany, there were Nazis in Nazi Germany. And there were a lot of people, I think it's easy for us to look back at years and kind of look at things in black and white, where we see the evil Nazis and the heroic resistance fighters. And of course, I see what Helmuth and his friends did is heroic. But there was this big gray area in the middle for most Germans, and that's where they were making their decisions each day. And they were trying to make decisions based on what they knew, and based on living in that place every day. And so I look at this good branch president, who, again, was was very patriotic, and a lot of members of the Church looked at Adolf Hitler, who didn't smoke, and he didn't drink. And he encouraged people to, to search out their family history to do their genealogy course, for very dark reasons, you know, as proof that they didn't have Jewish ancestry. But he also he instituted something that he called the one pot Sunday, where once a month on a Sunday, once a month, he would encourage people to abstain from meals for two meals, and then donate the difference to the poor. So the members of the Church, were seeing all these things I'm thinking, you know, especially early on in Hitler's, you know, after he was elected, some of the members of the Church really felt that he was God's instrument to a point. There was a certain point where most people came to their senses and realized, wait a minute, this is not who we thought this was. But as Karl told me by then it was too late. By then, if you whispered anything against him to the wrong person, including sometimes family members, you could end up in a concentration camp. And so to look at someone like this branch president, his name with art was Arthur Zander. And two, I think we can't judge him. And really, for me, this has kind of been a life lesson. Because, you know in our situations in life, we may look at people, whether it's politically and just think, oh, man, they are wrong, they are on the wrong side of that, or how could this bishop or how could this stake president feel that way politically? How could they have that person's vote for me sign in their yard? I think we all need to take a step back and just remember that, first of all, having served as a bishop, none of us asked for that calling. You know, somebody came to us and asked us and we said, Yes. And I know that's what it was for Arthur Zander as well, this branch president, he was a fairly recent convert to the Church, and a loving husband and father, and for a number of years during Hitler's reign was devout to the cause. If I can talk about the other side of that, though, because he was so devout, of course, especially after Helmuth was arrested and the boys were arrested. There was all kinds of attention on the Church from the Gestapo and from the Nazi Party. And so the Gestapo was coming to the Church and attending the meetings and of course, they saw a party man who was very much a part of the Nazi Party and very patriotic in that sense. And one of the things that Arthur Zander did very shortly after Helmuth was arrested, was excommunicated him. And that's something that we just think, Wait, that that just doesn't sound right. And if you jump forward a few years to after the end of the war, I've actually seen a copy of that excommunication record and the Church officially has written over it, it says excommunicated by mistake. And so essentially his excommunication wasn't even recognized by the Church. But the fact that this branch president had done that may very well have saved the members not only in Hamburg, but potentially across Germany, across Nazi Germany. So for me, it's important to remember to not to pass too quick of judgment on this man who, who was operating in a place at a time, that was very, very difficult, very difficult for anyone have faith, to try and discern what is right and what isn't.

Morgan Jones Pearson

It's fascinating to me, I feel like we've touched on a few of these kinds of unique Latter-day Saints-specific elements that might not be explicitly shown in the series. But that might be interesting for Latter-day Saints to know about, are there any other little insights into kind of the Latter-day Saint part of this story that you'd like to highlight?

Unknown Speaker

Yeah, I'll talk about one, and then we can see if that leads to something else, but one of the things every church, and every faith in Nazi Germany had to figure out what their standing was, how they were going to and a lot of them really out of survival just kind of went along with it. And our faith, our church, the counsel from Salt Lake was, lie low, lay low. And to not cause waves and just kind of get through it and we had, of course, our 12th Article of Faith, we believe in being subjected to kings, presidents, rulers and magistrates, in obeying, honoring and sustaining the law. And so a lot of a lot of members, you know, really just use that as their reasoning to think okay, well, we have a a religious obligation to support our duly elected leader, the führer Adolf Hitler, and, and that was something that was unique to our faith and to members of the church. And a lot of them did rely on that, understandably. Now, there were others who also recognize that, you know, throughout the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants, there are also passages that talk about the importance of being involved politically and standing up for what is right. But again, there was this really unique, the fact that one of the tenets, one of the basic tenets of our faith says to support our kings and rulers and magistrates. And so by and large, members of the Church in Germany, did that. There were noted exceptions, and Helmuth is one of those.

Morgan Jones Pearson

Matt I think it's interesting, and one thing that may be important for people to know, because you've talked about this being excommunicated, dealing with this branch president who was putting signs on the door and saluting prior to church meetings, this boy never lost his faith. Why do you think that this was so firmly embedded in Him?

Unknown Speaker

That is such a good question, because we know that his mother who was a member of the Church, born and raised in the Church, but was not terribly active in the Church, she would go sometimes, but her parents were devout and devoted members of the church through and through. And so actually because his mother had she had been married a couple of times, and she had remarried with a man who was a part of the Nazi police, the SAA, they call them the brown shirts, and he and Helmuth did not get along. And so Helmuth moved out and moved in with his grandparents who were very faithful and devout members of the Church. And I'm sure that that had a big impact on him holding fast to his faith. Despite all these questions around him, despite the things that he was seeing his branch president do. There was another member of the branch who was the counselor in the branch presidency, a man by the name of Otto Barrett. And he was kind of the antithesis of the branch president, if you will. And they got along well, but he was more along Helmuth's line. And in fact, after Helmuth was arrested, and the Gestapo was questioning them and looking at the church and trying to find who was the adult behind this, for a while, they thought for sure it was Otto Barrett, this member of the branch presidency, they actually brought him in for questioning. And I talked to his son about this a number of years ago, when I was doing the documentary, I interviewed his son, and it was just fascinating. And the son of this member of the branch presidency, who was questioned by the Gestapo, and they kept trying to pin it on him. After he got home, he told his family this, he said they were throwing questions at me just repeatedly and trying to trip me up and trying to get me to contradict something that I've said before. And then he said, and then something took over and the Spirit just filled my mind. And I answered all of their questions for over two days straight, all of their questions clearly and consistently, until they came to the point where the Gestapo realized that he had nothing to do with it and released him. And he said that as he was walking out, he had the courage to say to them, Do you believe me now that I had nothing to do with what these boys did? The Gestapo said, we do believe you, if we had the slightest doubt, you wouldn't be leaving here alive. And then they said, but remember this, as soon as we've solved the Jewish problem, you Mormons are next. And that was the last thing he heard from them as he left. Now that sends a chill down all of our spines, I think it's important to point out that wasn't, that was one Gestapo agent who said that to him. And it wasn't necessarily the view of the Nazi Party, although they were watching our church there. You know, they saw it as this American church who was the enemy. And so they were carefully watching members of the Church across across Nazi Germany. But I'll never forget that experience hearing from the son of the man who had it.

Morgan Jones Pearson

Wow, that's amazing, pretty wild to think about. So one thing that struck me in one of the videos that I watched that's been filmed more recently, as you all have been working on trying to turn this into a series, someone talked about how this is a story that needs to be told now. And so I wonder, what is it about this story that you feel makes it an important story for our time right now?

Unknown Speaker

Having been at this, as long as I have, over 20 years, back 20 years ago, when we first started thinking, we're gonna make a movie out of this, it felt like, wow, this is a story that really applies to our day today, this needs to be told now, from where I sit right now with what's going on in the world with a war again in Europe. And seeing what is happening, it does feel to me like it's more important now to tell the story than maybe it ever has been, as I look at what, when a dictator has invaded another country and seeing how he's shut down their ability to receive radio broadcasts, taking control of all of their television and radio networks. It's really interesting that, you know, I mentioned earlier that the BBC, during the WWII was broadcasting in the German language so they could send the truth, you know, on shortwave, to those people who couldn't get it. They stopped that after the war, and for decades weren't doing it. Earlier this year, they started broadcasting on shortwave again in Russian and in Ukrainian. And I just see that as this this parallel, there's, you know, in some senses, I feel like, okay, it's happening again. And there are Ukrainians and there are Russians who have access to shortwave, who are getting their truth, the same way that Helmuth did 80,81 years ago.

Morgan Jones Pearson

So speaking of that, I do want to try to drive people on the website that you all have created on the Angel Studios website, it has a really good I feel like also breakdown of why telling this story can benefit young people and seeing the story where these teenagers are standing up for what they believe in. I found it really inspiring. So I think that as well is another reason that the story matters and is particularly timely right now. Matt you first began working on this, like we said over two decades ago, but you felt like it should be a movie and you started working on a script and you've experienced setback after setback after setback. What is it that has kept you moving forward?

Unknown Speaker

Yeah, that's a great question. Because yes, we wrote a script. And in fact, my writing partner, Ethan Vincent and I wrote a script and you know what? It ended up being a really good script for a two hour movie, you know, that someone would go to the theaters and watch. And in the mid 2000s, we were getting a lot of good attention. We had two Academy Award nominated actors that said, Okay, we're on board, this, you did put this young actor, this teenage actor, who at the time was arguably the best actor of his generation. And another older actor, who is also almost indisputably the best actor of his generation, both signed on to star in this film, and things were really just looking, you know, like, Okay, we're gonna get this made. And then in 2008, the world housing market collapsed, and the economy collapsed, and all of these investors that we had pulled out. And that was really tough. And it took us a while, but we regrouped and said, Okay, we're not going to let this stop us, we're going to make this movie. And we were at it for a number of years trying to rebuild the investments and we're getting those back and getting things coming together and then of course, COVID hit, and the world shut down. And particularly the film, film business just kind of shut down completely. But once again, our investors pulled out their money. It was during that time, actually, when we had our first meeting with Angel Studios, I'm not sure if you're familiar with Angel Studios, but they're the ones who brought us "The Chosen," an incredibly powerful series about Jesus Christ. And we sat down and met with them, and we kind of pitched them the story. And they got really excited. They had seen the documentary. And they said, Yes, we love the story. We think that we could really find great success with this. But we don't think it should be a one off movie, we think it should be a series. And my initial reaction, frankly, was "No, I think we've got a really good script. And this is going to be a movie." The interesting thing is that as that meeting continued about 10 minutes later, for me, in my mind, just something just clicked. And suddenly, I saw the story that had for years been a two hour movie. I saw it as a four part episode, I could just see it clearly. I saw episode one and how it ended, I saw episode two and this cliffhanger. I saw episode three, I saw the climax and episode four all while we're sitting in there in this meeting. And of course, I'm not saying anything out loud. But I left there going there, right? This is the way to tell this story is as a four-part limited series, what we used to call the mini series, you know, and I went home and started immediately writing a new script for new scripts. I didn't tell my partners actually, even until I was finished with them, and then gave it to them and said, I sure hope you guys liked this because I think we need to do this. And thankfully they did. And then we partnered up with Angel Studios, and we're moving forward now to to shoot this limited series and tell this story and be able to go into a lot more depth into for instance, the story of the branch president and his family and the moral decisions that he was forced into and trying to navigate and, and also diving into the story of the Gestapo agent who, who was obsessed with hunting down whoever was putting out these fliers his story is amazing on its own. So all of these things that we get to dive into as we as we approach this story, not as a two hour movie, but as a a four part limited series through with Angel Studios.

Morgan Jones Pearson

I love the way that you describe that moment in the meeting where you could see it clearly broken out because I've had moments like that with this podcast where it'll be an interview won't be going the way that I expected it to and very clearly, I'll have like this moment where I can see the way that if I just make a slight shift things will be different. And so anyway, I love that story. I'm curious as you approach is trying to to make this into a series, do you already have people in mind for the starring roles who will play the main characters?

Unknown Speaker

Another really good question. You know, as I mentioned in the past, we have gone down that road gone way down that road to where we had auditioned actors. It's interesting, because we way back in 2006, kind of in version 1.0 is when we're moving forward with this, we went over to London, or cast most of the cast out of London, and went over to London and had, you know, a lot of casting sessions there and seeing all these wonderful actors. It's interesting, as I look back at our records there, we were seeing these these unknown, but wonderful young British actors, like, oh, Robert Pattinson, and Andrew Garfield, some of these who at the time were unknown, but of course, now have done well. So we've been way down that road. This time, we've decided to approach it a little differently, where we're going to wait until we're completely funded. And that's the process that we're in right now. And then begin again, that casting process to find those actors. I can't tell you how many times over the years that I've said, Okay, now this is the actor that I want to play Helmuth, you know, and then a couple years ago by and then he's too old. So I was like, Okay, now this is the new young actor that I want to play Helmuth. So we're a little circumspect right now and are just kind of holding back. And we believe that within the next few months, we'll really begin that casting process in earnest. And find these wonderful British actors to portray these roles of Helmuth and his two best friends and the Gestapo agent and the branch president and his family, all of these parts.

Morgan Jones Pearson

What would it mean to you, Matt, to finally have the opportunity to tell this story in the way you've envisioned for over two decades?

Unknown Speaker

Yeah, I actually have a hard time talking about that. Because it has been so close to my heart. And I do have to say that I wouldn't be sitting here talking with you about that I'm still on this journey if it weren't for my sweet companion, my beautiful wife. You know, 20 years ago, 21 years ago, when we started making the documentary, she was just all in, just so, so supportive. And then I had an experience in 2005. And I guess this is a venue where I can share that if that's alright. I was actually at the temple, and, and had been through a session and was praying and asking for direction on other areas of my life. And for some reason, I hadn't planned on it. But I just kind of asked this question, what about this Helmuth Hubener movie, we've been working on the script and had actually had a big LA producer attached and he had somebody else to direct it. And I was just going to be screenwriter with my writing partner. And sitting there in the temple, I had one of those strong, strong responses that said, you need to make this movie, you need to direct this. And it was so overwhelming, and filled with light. And I just received all kinds of direction on next steps to take. I went home and sat down with my wife and told her what had just happened. And kind of warned her I said, you know hun, this could take a couple of years? Well, you know, 17 years later, she has been a just completely loyal, you talked about loyalty earlier. It is so overwhelming to me to see when I have been at times ready to quit, ready to just say forget it, you know, the Lord can expect can expect us to keep going after this many years, you know, and we're almost there. And then everything falls apart. And we have to start all over again. And I'm in the proverbial fetal position saying what have I done? And there's my sweetheart saying, we're still making your movie, right? We're still gonna make that movie? And so after all these years, and now we see ourselves on the cusp of actually being able to tell this story, to make this movie. I'm grateful for that. Yes, I get to finally be able to do what I've wanted to do so badly and felt directed to do. But I'm also so grateful that my sweet wife will be able to see this, see this happen and see where her faith and her sustaining support and her leadership frankly, in keeping us moving forward will finally come to fruition? I'm so grateful.

Morgan Jones Pearson

What a sweet tribute to your wife. She sounds like my kind of lady so I would like to meet her. Matt, my last question for you, and thank you so much for being willing to share your journey and this story and all of the hard work that you've put into this. My last question for you is, what does it mean to you to be all in the gospel of Jesus Christ?

Unknown Speaker

Because my wife and I love your show, I knew this question was coming. And it's interesting that I had to really ask myself, what does that mean to me? I think it means two things. And one is, for me, being all in is remembering Jesus, that this is His work. And that we are surrounded with incredible women and men, who, as I mentioned earlier, are called into leadership positions in the Church, and in their beautiful imperfections are just trying to be like Jesus. And so for me, an important part of being all in is keeping that in mind, and being loyal, and understanding of bishops and Relief Society presidents and all of these people around us who didn't ask for that position, but who said yes, when someone else asked them and they're trying their best, having been a bishop, that is very important to me. And that is apart from me of being a being all in. And the other quick part of this is, for me, being all in means that we look around at other members of the Church and remember that we are all in. Having been a bishop in a young married student ward with these wonderful young Gen Z'ers and young millennials, who just exude love and welcome. And, they were this example to me, of what it means to be all in because they didn't it didn't matter if someone showed up who was you know, covered in tattoos or piercings, or who smelled like cigarette smoke or who was gay or transgender. It didn't matter what they said was you're welcome here. All are welcome. And I think that for me is also a very important part of what it means to be all in.

Morgan Jones Pearson

Thank you so much, Matt. Well, it has been a pleasure to talk with you and good luck.

Unknown Speaker

Thank you so much, Morgan. It's been it's been great to talk with you. And now I finally have great street cred with my wife, because I'm on her favorite podcast.

Morgan Jones Pearson

Big thanks to Matt Whitaker for joining us on today's episode, you can learn more about Truth and Conviction and how you can help make this series of reality by visiting invest.angel.com/truth. Thanks to Derek Campbell of Mix at Six studios for his help with this episode, and thank you so much for listening. We'll be with you again next week.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai