Jenn Knight: On the Other Side of the Veil

Morgan Jones 0:00

Let me walk you through the last eight years of Jenn Knight's life. In 2013 her dad was diagnosed with advanced cancer, he passed away three months later. Two years later, she was diagnosed with colon cancer and discovered a familial genetic mutation–Lynch syndrome–which predisposes her to cancer.

Her sister was diagnosed with colon cancer at the same time–same genetic mutation. In 2017 Jenn's 11-year-old daughter Madi was diagnosed with brain cancer. A week after Madi had brain surgery, Jenn learned that her baby in embryo had Trisomy 18 and would likely not survive. In November of that year, she lost her 39 week old baby in labor and less than four months later, brain cancer won and she lost her bright and beautiful 12 year old daughter.

In 2020, Jenn and two of her sisters discovered that they all had uterine cancer. Jenn's was found quickly, and she had a surgery to remove the cancer. Each year, Jen goes through a cancer screening season in which her body is scanned over and over again for traces of cancer. Despite all of this, Jenn Knight is one of the most faithful people I've ever interviewed.

Jenn Knight grew up in Indiana and now resides in Belmont, Massachusetts. She got her bachelor's degree from BYU in international politics with a minor in Chinese studies. She also received an MLA in religion from Harvard University. She now majors in early morning seminary and after school activities as she stays home with her kids. She is mother to six, two of whom have graduated from this life and are helping out from the other side of the veil. She finds great joy in reading, exercising, Japanese folding techniques and writing. You can read more of her writing in the book she co-edited, called Do Not Attempt in Heels: Mission Stories and Advice From Sisters Who've Been There, and on her blog, thebostonknights.com.

This is All In, an LDS Living podcast where we ask the question, what does it really mean to be all in the gospel of Jesus Christ? I'm Morgan Jones, and I am so honored to have Jenn Knight on the line with me today. Jenn, welcome.

Jenn Knight 2:18

Thank you. Thank you so much. Good to be here.

Morgan Jones 2:22

I have to tell you, I kind of dug into your blog in preparation for this and I was blown away by your faith. And I think it's easy for people sometimes to talk about faith when things are good or when things are resolved–the bad has been resolved–but it's a lot harder, I think, to have and exhibit faith in the middle when things are not resolved. And I think you are such a good example of that.

So, as we talk together today, I am so excited for you to share your experiences and insights with our listeners. I wanted to start on the blog that you kept for your family during your daughter's battle with brain cancer, there's one line that really stood out to me, you said, "Existence is a huge messy spectrum of good and bad partnering together to make life feel whole." I wondered what you mean by that, and why you think both good and bad are necessary to our progression?

Jenn Knight 3:32

Well, first of all, thank you for your nice words about my faith and the blog. It was really a lifeline to me to keep me going. I didn't mean for it to be something that everybody saw, but it ended up, you know, being a great way for me to process, and also really like having faith in the moment I think is kind of the only way you can get through something like this is how I felt.

And that kind of ties to your question, because I just think that sometimes we get stuck–especially now when there's so much social media highlighting all of everybody's best moments in life. Sometimes it's really easy to kind of scroll through your feed or even to just look around you and think that you are alone in the hard things. That everybody else seems to have things figured out or their life seems to be going well or, you know, whatever. And I think that is one of the biggest . . . lies.

And so I guess when bad times hit us, it's really easy to think like "Why me?" Or, you know, "Why is this happening? Why can't I just have, you know, the perfect life?" or whatever, and I guess I'm here to tell you that like these hard things are the things that make life so good.

It's like when I tried to take a chocolate chip cookie once that had no salt in it, and I had a friend swear that it was the best recipe she'd ever had. And I tried it. And I was like, this is fine, but it's not good. And I couldn't figure out what it was until I looked at the recipe and there was no salt in it. And I was like, oh, that's what it is. You need that opposition in the ingredients to kind of bring out the sweetness and I feel like with good and bad all rolled into one, that's really the only way that we can get stronger, right? Like, we can't just have a life full of good, or a life full of bad. It would–that would crush us. And so it has to be mixed together and kind of help us grow.

Morgan Jones 5:40

Jenn, you have faced–speaking of the opposition–you've faced so many difficult things over the last six years. I wondered what would you say–kind of just to start us off–an overarching . . . what would you say are the biggest lessons that you have learned from these trials?

Jenn Knight 6:01

I think the thing that has really hit home to me the hardest is that I don't have to earn God's help. And I don't have to earn His love. I mean, I think in the past, it was kind of subconscious, and it didn't really–I didn't have to confront it until I was going through all these hard times.

But, you know, there were times when I was angry at God and I did not want to pray, or I wanted to pray, but I just didn't know what to pray for anymore. Because everything I wanted was stuff that obviously I wasn't going to get. You know, like I couldn't be healed completely in the, you know, wave of a hand or, you know, have my daughter be made whole with a priesthood blessing or whatever.

So I, you know, I was struggling and I kind of stopped asking for things. And when I did, it was so interesting to me because people still came and answered prayers that I hadn't asked, because I didn't think that I would get an answer. And they showed up with things that I didn't know that I needed or help that I didn't know that I would need.

I remember one time specifically–it was a really hard Sunday. And it was after we had found out that Madi was dying, and we went out to go to church, and we were running late, and the car wouldn't start. And I was like, " . . . Shoot. What are we going to do?" There was some reason we had to be at church too, like on time, and I can't remember what it is, but. We stood there and my husband was like trying to figure out how to like–to figure out what the problem was.

And right at that moment, a friend drove up and got out of the car with a gift. And she's not–she wasn't in our ward, she had driven 30 minutes to get there, and happened to arrive, just at that moment that we needed her with jumper cables and like a basket of cookies or something, I don't know.

And I just . . . I just sat there in awe, because I didn't know that was what we were going to need. And it was a little thing, but I think that at that moment I realized it doesn't matter if I'm reading my scriptures every day, it doesn't matter if I'm praying every day, it doesn't matter if I'm actually even doing things that are in opposition to God's laws and His plan–He is going to love me and send me help, whenever He can.

And doing all of those things only helps me to be able to see it better. Those are all tools to improve my spiritual vision. But it's not a way for me to earn His help or His love. So I think that's my biggest takeaway from the whole situation.

Morgan Jones 8:52

I think that is profound. And we'll dig in a little bit later into . . . kind of–you talk a lot on your blog about angels, and I think that lady certainly is an example of an angel and how they're angels on both sides of the veil to help us. Another thing I wondered is, how would you say that this adversity and these challenges have changed you as a person?

Jenn Knight 9:21

Well, I think it kind of hit home to me, like the gospel that I've been living for my whole life, you know, we believe that this time is act two, right? It's not act one, it's not act three–it's act two. And so there's no resolution really here. And that’s part of the reason we came down here was to be tested and tried.

And I think it just kind of hit home to me that if I really believe what I've been living all these years, then this is what I signed up for. And I remember actually–this is recently–saying a prayer and saying, you know, help my friend to . . . She was having a really hard time with something, and I said, "Please help that to go away."

And I just had this thought like, "If I did that, your friend would be so mad at you on the other side." This is something that we wanted to go through so that we could get stronger and that we could, you know, really find ourselves.

I remember hearing a story about Truman Madsen and Hugh B. Brown, and they were in Jerusalem and Truman Madsen asked Elder Brown, you know, like, "Why do you think that Abraham had to go through all of these trials?" And Elder Brown said, "Well, Abraham needed to learn a little bit about Abraham."

And I totally feel that. I felt like I got to know myself in a way that I hadn't before. And I definitely got to know my daughter in a way that I hadn't known before and couldn't know if I hadn't seen her like . . . majesty, during these moments of complete, like, disparity for me and for her. It was just an enlightening experience for both of us–for all of us.

Morgan Jones 11:14

I love how you said, "Her majesty." I think–the little bit that I've read about Madi, she seems like such a special person, and you shared some of those special moments that your family experienced. And you talked about how her teacher had taught her to sing this kid friendly version of the song, "Hallelujah." And as she lay fighting for life, she started to sing that song, and you wrote this, which I thought was so beautiful.

You said, "So much of what we celebrate of Christ and His mission on earth is joyful. But sacred are moments that allow us to capture a glimpse of Gethsemane and what that joy cost our Savior. It felt holy in that room as she sang, and for the first time that night, I cried. Not out of fear, but out of gratitude. The original song says that 'Love is a cold and a broken Hallelujah,' and after feeling this moment, I think that is just the most beautiful and poetic way of describing a love for Christ."

Why would you say–and I was intrigued by that, so I wondered–why would you say a love for Christ is a cold and a broken hallelujah?

Jenn Knight 12:30

That night was so surreal, just for a little bit of context for people who haven't read the blog–we had put our daughter on this new medication because the traditional chemo wouldn't work with her genetic mutation, and so it was this immunotherapy, we knew it was a long shot, but it was the only shot we had. And one of the side effects was brain hemorrhage. Well–it could be.

So we had just come home from trick or treating, we were sitting there and all of a sudden, I saw that my daughter was like, not talking. And then she started talking gibberish and she didn't know how old she was or what year it was, and then she started to vomit. And it was just–it was really terrifying, because we thought we were losing her, you know, again. And we thought her brain was hemorrhaging.

So my husband took her to the hospital while I gathered some of her stuff and tried to calm down the rest of my kids, which is another story as well, and a time–a moment in my life when I felt the help–the tangible help of the Savior in my home. Anyway, so got all that together, went to the hospital, and funny enough, her biggest fear–my daughter who had brain cancer–her biggest fear was needles, not dying. Not the brain cancer, it was needles.

And so we went to the hospital and she had to get this injection and like right away, so we could figure out what's going on and help her and they could not find a vein. And so they took an ultrasound machine and they were trying to find one with the needle. And she was in a lot of pain and terrified.

And the thing that came to mind was . . . I'm sorry, it's been so long since I've talked about this.

Morgan Jones 14:20

You're good.

Jenn Knight 14:22

The thing that came to mind was this song that she had been learning with her voice teacher, Diane Pritchett, who was volunteering her time to come every week and help her, and so I said, "Madi, why don't you sing the song? You can belt it out as loud as you want." And she . . . so she did as they were digging this needle into her arm she started belting out "Hallelujah" and she was saying all the lyrics and she said, you know, "It's a cold and it's broken Hallelujah."

And I just–it just hit me for the first time really like . . . that, you know, I think there's a limit to how deeply we can really come to know the Savior if we're only identifying with him in our moments of peace and love and happiness. Like, the real grit of our discipleship is reaching out to him when we hit the bottom. And when we recognize that our own limitations are holding us back, and there is no other way out, there is no other way we can go, and we call to Him, and we know that He's the only one that could possibly understand or help.

And I mean, His–the help and the feelings that we receive are so hard to pin down, they're so like oblique and tangible, but, but they come, right. Like it reminds me of that passage in the Book of Mormon from Alma, when he's, you know, in his like, coma for these three days, and he just says that he's wracked with torment, but then he remembers Jesus Christ. He remembers Him and he cries to Him and it's like, he's completely released, it's like this hallelujah, you know, like, "Hallelujah, thank you." Like, "It is cold and broken here and you're the only one who can help me get out of it." And it just touched me so much, watching my 12 year old sing this and like, you know, in her moment of greatest pain and anguish, singing–literally shouting–"Hallelujah." You know, it was so profound for me. So, yeah.

Morgan Jones 16:33

Well, and I think, you know, when we think about the purpose throughout history in which people have said that word, I don't know, I just think that's so–it's so powerful to think of, and I wasn't even there.

Another post that I loved was where you talked about the Savior's visit to the Americas and how He blessed the children, and you wrote, "I have wondered many times what it would have felt like to be there for this event. I have imagined bringing my pregnant belly and sick daughter to the Savior and watching Him heal Frederick and Madi with a touch of His hand. I let that feeling of relief and gratitude wash over me and can think of no more appropriate response than pushing forward to bathe His feet with my tears, to be so close, to feel His presence, to witness healing like that would be so marvelous. But I was not there, nor is He here now and it stinks."

Which, I appreciated your candor there, because it's so true. Like, you know, I think a lot of times we think, "Oh, like, it would have been amazing to have been there for these miraculous things, but like, I'm not getting a miracle right now, and that is a bummer." But then you say, "There's one aspect of this story that pops up consistently throughout the scriptures, the appearance of angels. Angels are always close to wherever Jesus happens to be. Sometimes they come before Him, sometimes they come after Him, sometimes they come instead of Him. But wherever they are, Christ is not far distant."

And in the post that you wrote about this, you listed–and I thought this was amazing, I don't know if you like kept a journal of those things, but you listed all of the different or many of the different experiences that you had had where you felt like angels had been present. So I wondered, how have you seen and felt angels–both the heavenly kind and the earthly kind–over the past six years? And obviously, you already mentioned one instance. But I'd love to hear both–like how you've seen both sides of it?

Jenn Knight 18:38

Well, that's–it's a really good question. And it's really hard to pin down an answer to that in just a short time. But I will say that I think it's an interesting thing that Heavenly Father has not–He asked us to obey Him, yes. But He's not standing at our door, saying, "Hey," you know, "Go visit so and so," like, if God came to my door and said, "You should do this," then it would probably be like, okay, yeah, I'll do it. But He doesn't do that, He works through other people.

And it is so inspiring to me to see the connection that we all have with deity that He works through other people, that He loves me enough to both send me help, but also to tell somebody else about it so that they can come help me. And I just think that is so beautiful, the whole like system, the way it's set up–it's just so beautiful, and I can't deny the feeling that I've had deep in my soul that that exists on the other side of the veil even though we can't see it.

And so, when you ask about how I felt angels, I almost feel like, at this point, I'm like, I think we're surrounded all the time. Like, I don't think there's a time I don't feel them now. Like, it just feels so much a part of our life here. I, I don't know, that's not a great answer, but.

The other thing I want to point out is, you know, when I talk about wanting to see the Savior, and you know, wanting to be there when he was healing all those people in Third Nephi, you know, what I didn't say is that these people had been through hell and back. You know, it's not like He just popped in for a visit and was like, "Hey," you know, "Let's heal all of your sick" and everything, you know.

I mean, these people had been through natural disasters and sickness and grief, probably way beyond what I knew. And, you know, He was coming to them in their hour of need, and healing them from things that had happened. And I just feel very strongly that that will happen with me, too. With our family, with anybody who's going through these hard things, that there will come a point when, after all these hard things are over, He will be there healing all of us, making us whole. Yeah, I'm just really grateful.

I've wondered many times if the angels that are surrounding the children that it talks about a few chapters after that, if those angels were, you know, the departed, the people who had been killed in these natural disasters, or from the, you know, the horrible things that had happened and where they're ministering to them, helping them know, like, "I'm in a great place. Keep going, you know, keep going." This isn't going to feel like this forever and we'll be together again soon, so.

Morgan Jones 21:43

I've never thought of it that way but I love that thought. I also love what you said about loving the way that kind of this system of earthly angels works. And I think it's so true, because if–like you said–if God showed up on your doorstep and asked you to do something, you'd go and do it. But I think there's something about how it strengthens us to be like, "Oh, wow," like, "He worked through me in that instance. And I only got this little prompting. So maybe I'm actually doing better than I thought I was." And I think that that's–I love that you said that.

Another thing that you quoted on your blog, you quoted something that Brigham Young said, he said, "We have more friends behind the veil than on this side, and they will hail us more joyfully than you were ever welcomed by your parents and friends in this world. And you will rejoice more when you meet them, than you ever rejoice to see a friend in this life. And then we shall go on from step to step, from rejoicing to rejoicing and from one intelligence and power to another, our happiness becoming more and more exquisite and sensible as we proceed in the words and power of life." I wondered, now having several people very, very close to you on that other side of the veil, how have you felt the truth of this?

Jenn Knight 23:11

Gosh, it still makes me teary. And just even hearing that quote, I used to read it every day when Madi was dying and before Frederick left as well. I had a friend who used to come over almost every day in that last stretch. And every time she came over, she would say, "Oh, I'm in the cone. I'm in the cone now." And like, "It feels so different from my house, the chaos and the you know, everything that's going on over there, it just feels so different."

And I remember there was a time when it got to a point where I felt bad even reading anything except for my scriptures. It just felt so sacred and holy. And, in fact, the day that my daughter died, or I guess it was just a few hours before she died, it was technically the next day, but. The whole–this whole group of young women came over to our house, it was Valentine's Day, and they prepared a song "Peace in Christ" to sing for Madi.

And I was a little hesitant to have them come because she was like, she was only breathing every once–once every 20 seconds or something and clearly she was like hanging on by a thread. They came in and all of my children came in as well, my other children. The youngest being two and the oldest was nine. And when the young women started singing, I–the only way I can describe it is that like, just something opened–something opened. And I think we all felt it. It was this feeling of like stillness that I've never experienced in my entire life.

And my children who were usually kind of hard to get them to settle down they, I mean, they sat still and quiet and I finally understood how the Savior maybe like had all these children around Him. I've always wondered how he had all these kids around Him and they weren't going crazy. And, but like seeing the stillness that came over everybody in the room, and the quiet, the holiness, and like, wow, we have no idea. We have no idea like, what this is like. You know, we are living, we're seeing through a glass darkly, you know, like Paul says, and that one little touch of like, of divinity in our home changed us like innately from that moment going forward.

And I just feel like, if we could see what it's like when they pass over onto the other side, how joyous it is, how amazing it is, you know, I had this feeling when that second that Madi passed from this life to the next, I just knew that Frederick, who had died three months before, and my dad who had passed away a couple of years before, I just knew they were there. And I can't tell you how I knew it–I just knew they were there. And it felt like a celebration. Even while I was simultaneously feeling the lowest that I have ever felt in my entire life. I knew that it was happy there. And somehow that brought me comfort and joy.

And I also remember when I lost Frederick feeling this closeness to him and almost like a gratitude from him that I was willing to, you know, let him have a body and experience mortality, even in a limited sense. And I just think there's so many compensatory blessings that come when we have to go through hard times like this. And it just helps us clarify our vision, our perspective, of eternity.

Morgan Jones 26:50

Okay, another thing that I wondered is when we–if we come up to present day–when dealing with something like a genetic mutation that predisposes you to cancer, how do you live in the present without being totally consumed by the unknown? Because I think that that is one of the hardest parts of this life is dealing with what we don't know, or what we like, you know, can't see coming. And so I wondered how you deal with that on a daily basis?

Jenn Knight 27:20

Uh . . . A lot of days–not well. [Laughter] But I will say good therapy has really helped me, that, you know, that that has really helped me work through–in fact, one of the therapists that I've worked with, asked me, because I struggle a lot with anxiety in general, but particularly about my health. And when I go through–I call it my screening season because I have to get almost every body part looked at, and the doctors are always super careful, because they don't want to miss anything. And that usually means that they find stuff that's questionable, and then we have to do follow up tests. And so there's like, probably, you know, a solid two to three months, every year where I think I'm dying.

And so I was talking to a therapist about it. And he said, "Well, you know, what would you do if your worst fears were true?" I said, "Well, you know, I'd probably prepare for my death. I'd plan my funeral, I'd take care of burial arrangements, make sure my earthly possessions were all in order, write letters to my kids spend time with the people I love, blah, blah, blah."

And then he's like, "Okay, and then what? Then what would you do after that?" And I said, "Well, I guess I would just wait to die." And then it dawned on me, and I was like, "Oh, that's living. That's, that's what living is called. It's just waiting to die." So you know, that's what I–right now my task is to just try and make sure that my life is in order so that if I am called home earlier than I hope that I can focus on living the way I want and loving the people that you know. I mean, it sounds so cliche, but just really focusing on the things that are most important for the however much time I have left.

Morgan Jones 29:01

I think that's such a it's–that's an interesting, like paradigm shift. And I love that question. Like, what would you do if your worst fears were true? Because I think . . . I don't know, I think that that's a really good introspective question. Another thing that I thought about as I read your blog is that you have quite the educational background and pedigree. Your parents are both highly educated, you are, and I wondered, having studied as much as you have studied, why do you choose to believe and why are you a member of the Church of Jesus Christ? Why the gospel of Jesus Christ?

Jenn Knight 29:40

So many answers to this that I could say, but I think in short, the answer is, where else would I go? There is nowhere else that has the kind of tools, the kind of community, the kind of connection to the divine that we have here, and I've looked. I've looked. You know, there–I just feel so strongly that this is the place that is going to help me get as far as I possibly can in this life.

And, you know, I have a friend who recently asked me to write a little piece for her "Why I Stay," you know Emily Snyder as well. And, you know, I reflected on my time as a missionary, because, you know, that's when you see the gospel in action so much, but on my mission, I was able to see it in a very practical way too, like the gospel works, you know.

I saw a woman who was illiterate, and we taught her how to read out of the scriptures. So maybe her Chinese ended up being a little bit wonky, but you know what?–It's okay. But she, you know, she learned how to read, she got a job, she was able to support her son, I had a family who was struggling with financial like, problems. And when they found out about the law of tithing, initially, they were like, "No way, we can't afford that."

And then when they really sat down and broke things out, they realized, "Oh, my goodness, actually, we can cut things out." And it helped them to get financial freedom. And, you know, a single mom who was struggling to raise three kids and trying to figure out how to instill all these values in them, she, like, she entered into this community, and suddenly they had like, you know, a dozen dads, and they were all helping them know, like, you know, what she wanted them to do. And I just feel like the gospel really gives us the tools to help us . . . to help us dig in and like, conquer life.

Morgan Jones 31:39

For sure, and I love what you said about like, seeing that it really works. I think that is, I think sometimes I wonder, you know, obviously, God could do something very different than what he does with the missionary program of the Church. Like, surely there are more qualified people to teach people about the gospel.

But sometimes I think that one of the most valuable parts of the way that the missionary program is set up is that it gives young people the opportunity to see that the gospel really does work. And for me, it was–I felt the same way.

I wanted–before we get to our last question–I wanted to, there was a quote that kind of stood out to me as like, kind of moving from one year into the next and when this episode airs, it'll be the beginning of 2022, which is crazy.

And you said this, "Maybe 2020s woes are not God cursing us. Maybe the pain and sadness that all these afflictions have left in their wake, are not sending the message that there is no God. Maybe God is hoping they will clarify our perspective. Maybe hardships and adversity are tools that will help increase our ability to feel peace and joy. Maybe we are growing stronger by living through the difficulties. I do know I never fully appreciated how good it felt to walk until I had run so many miles. Relief always comes. Hope is hidden and discovered in the pain."

I love this because I think, you know, we all went through 2020 and it was rough. And then we thought 2021 was going to be like, "Oh, we're on the up and up." And instead 2021 was also rough. So I wondered as we enter a new year, we've been through a lot, but how do you think we have also experienced hope? Or what should give us hope as we enter this new year, in your opinion.

Jenn Knight 33:32

I mean, Jesus Christ–I know that maybe it's not politically correct, at least not in my circles back here to say that, but I feel like we have to find hope. And I have not been able to find hope anywhere in the world except through Jesus Christ. And I firmly believe that he is the only one who can heal the divisions that we are facing, the heartbreak that we feel, and all the losses that we've experienced over the last few years.

And, you know, I honestly think that sometimes we get lost in the pain. That we are so consumed by it that we just forget, like, hey, this–it's not always going to feel this way. It's not always going to be like this. Maybe it's going to be different from now on. But I just always think of like when I'm going through pain, I have this visualization that I do that it's like a shovel, digging a hole in my soul that needs to be filled up with something and that the deeper that it digs, the more capacity I have to fill it with joy and love and happiness. So I think that those hardships really help us to have a place, to fill a place with more hope and joy and peace and love.

Morgan Jones 34:54

I love the way you said that. Jenn, thank you so much for sharing. I know that these are tender feelings and memories, but your testimony and your faith is inspiring and I appreciate it more than you know. My last question for you is, what does it mean to you to be all in the gospel of Jesus Christ?

Jenn Knight 35:13

I think it doesn't mean that I have no questions. I think it doesn't mean that everything is perfect. I think it doesn't mean that I'm going to experience the fullness of joy in this life. But I think it does mean that I'm committed. That I am willing to give my whole soul, everything that I am to the Lord, and I am, you know, grateful for the opportunity. It's a good chance to really just give everything I have to my Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ.

Morgan Jones 35:49

Thank you so much for that. I agree completely. And I think that one of the biggest reasons that it's an experience that we need to have is because that's exactly what Christ did for us. He gave everything for us. So, thank you so much, Jen, you are such a good example to me, and I'm sure to so many other people. And so thank you very much.

Thank you so much for helping my kids come back to life for just a minute as I'm talking about them and remembering all of these tender feelings. So thank you for this opportunity. I appreciate it.

Morgan Jones 36:24

We are so grateful to Jenn Knight for sharing her experiences on this week's episode. You can find her book Do Not Attempt in Heels: Mission Stories and Advice From Sisters Who've Been There on Deseretbook.com. Thanks to Derek Campbell for his help with this episode. And thank you so much for listening.