God Needs Mothers of All Kinds

Morgan Jones 
There are so many different kinds of mothers, and today we want to celebrate mothers of all kinds. But first, I want to give a shout out to the women who right now are ready to turn this podcast off because they're thinking, "I'm not a mother." Well, hello, my name is Morgan, and I would like to be your friend. I am also not a mother. And at the beginning of last year, I found myself questioning my ability to receive personal revelation. I allowed myself to feel less than those around me that I wasn't contributing anything and that feeling of worthlessness ultimately caused an ache that was unlike anything I had felt before. But over the course of a year in which I focused on the word nurture, I realized that while my mother hearts still longs to have children someday, I have found that I have a tremendous capacity to mother. And I hope that as you listen to this podcast, you'll recognize that while our experiences may be different, the root emotions are often very much the same.
I think you'll love hearing from each of the three women we have on this week's show. All are contributors to the new Deseret Book release, "All Kinds of Mothers," which is a collection of essays. These women will show us that there are many different ways to fulfill the divine calling of motherhood. First, we'll hear from sister Virginia Pearce, a former member of the Young Women General Presidency and the daughter of President Gordon B. Hinckley and Sister Marjorie Pay Hinckley. Then we'll hear from Breaunna Stone, a young mother who recently adopted her first child, and finally, we'll hear from KaRyn Lay the host of LDS Living's This is the Gospel podcast and a stepmother to two teenagers.
This is All In, an LDS Living podcast where we ask the question, "What does it really mean to be all in the Gospel of Jesus Christ?" I'm Morgan Jones, and it is an honor, truly, to have sister Virginia Pearce with me today. Sister Pearce, welcome.

Virginia Pearce
Oh, it's my pleasure, Morgan. I'm just happy to be here. I'm happy to see you, and I'm happy for the opportunity to think about and talk about mothering.

Morgan Jones 
Well, I met Sister Pearce—I have to tell those who listen—I met Sister Pearce at a wedding reception a few years ago, and I just remember walking away, and I think I told like everyone that I know, that she is the nicest person, honestly. So hopefully people will get a chance today to feel like they've had a chance to sit down with you and talk with you because you're an absolute delight.
In your essay for this book, you talk about the kind of home mothers long to create. You say, "We want our homes to be thin places where we and all those who enter can experience God. What does that look like?" You asked that question, and I thought that question was so interesting, and that statement was fascinating. And you said that as you were preparing for this interview that you found yourself thinking about your own mother, and not just the home that you grew up in, but the ways that your mother taught you to mother. So can you tell us a little bit about your thought processes you've thought about that, Sister Pearce?

Virginia Pearce 
Okay, first of all, let me just say something about mothering in general because it's such a huge topic. And it's so overwhelming to all of us. Every woman who's ever become a mother, on Mother's Day just groans because she feels so inadequate. I think, honestly, there are so many good kinds of mothers. We all do it our own way, and I've seen a multitude of different ways where it works. I think mothering of all things calls upon just who you are at your core. So when we talk about, how do you build this kind of home that you want, where the Spirit of God can enter, it really starts with you. And so it's nourishing yourself. It's the oxygen mask in the airplane, you put that on yourself first. With mothering, you build your relationship with God. And when you do that, everything that rolls out from that is just good. It's just good, and it leaks all over the house. And it leaks into every room and into every person's life, even though it doesn't seem like it at times.

Morgan Jones  
I love that thought, and I think sometimes—I'm not a mother—but I can imagine that sometimes you're trying so hard to take care of everybody else's needs. I remember my mom, sometimes I would be like, "Have you eaten today?" And she would have forgotten to eat. And I think that that is that's kind of the nature of a mother. So can you tell us a little bit, Sister Pearce, about things that you learned about mothering from your own mother? Because your mother is Marjorie Hinckley, and everyone loves Marjorie Hinckley. I think she's maybe the most beloved person in church history.

Virginia Pearce 
Oh, that's so generous of you to say, and I love that people love her. I think that the most important thing about Mother was, she was who she was, and she was comfortable with herself. It wasn't like she thought she was Superwoman, or wanted to be Superwoman. She was who she was. And I think that's grounded in this very powerful faith. And so, as a mother, she didn't need us to perform so that she would look good. She that she wasn't, she wasn't in the way of any of that. And if we found other models to build our lives on, she was thrilled about it. She was looking at other people and, and encouraging us to reach out to other people because she was. And I think sometimes we get so hung up with, "I'm going to be judged by my children's behavior," and that makes us crazy. If we can say, "I'm going to be judged for my behavior, and they're going to be great people," that was the other thing that she was so good at, she just assumed we were going to be good. And she assumed that we were going to be fun and that we were going to be nice. That goes a long way when you live with somebody like that.

Morgan Jones 
Yeah, I think that you touch on such an important point because I know that I've noticed how hard it can be when children make choices that are maybe not exactly what the parent would want. And they feel like it's a reflection of them. And really, ultimately, a parent's success, I think, is dependent on whether or not a child is a good person, more so than all the other little things that could determine success as a parent. So I'm interested to know your thoughts on how your parents, and then you as a parent, have sought to shape children into good people, and then allowed them to make their own choices.

Virginia Pearce 
Let me tell you a story—it's kind of a dumb story. I was a senior in high school, and we had a ward situation where I was really busy at school, really involved with school, and I didn't go to Mutual all the time. And we had individual wards in those days, and they were dependent on your attendance at Mutual, and at Sunday School and Sacrament Meeting, as well as some other things. So one night in about March or April, the young women president came over to visit my parents. And my father was a general authority, and so I just think they thought, "Well, they were coming to visit us." And we all sat down in the living room together, my mother, father, and me and they proceeded to explain to him that I still could get my individual award and I'd had one every year and this would be the sixth year and I could still get it if I came to every Mutual from now to the end of the year, because I hadn't been coming enough. Everything else was okay and I should just come to every Mutual. And my parents sat and listened to them and were nice to them. And I was seething, I was sitting in the corner, being a 17-year-old kid, so mad about the idea that they wanted me to get this stupid award. It didn't mean anything to me, and they didn't ask me why I wasn't going, they just wanted me to check the box. And so I was ticked by the time they left. When they left, my parents were nice, they said goodbye to them. And then my dad turned around and he just grinned at me and walked out of the room. And I think they were masters at saying, "Look, we trust you, you'll make a good choice." And that's what it did to me. The funny thing was, is that when I'd been sitting in that room, I thought, "I'm not getting this one. I'm just going to blow this." That's the kind of stubborn kids we were. Years later when I looked back, lo and behold, I had the individual award. So I must have gone to all of them. I must have just said, "Okay, I'll do it." And that's an example of how they parented. The Church was everything to them. My mother never complained about her Church work, my dad never complained about it. They were all about moving the kingdom forward. But it was real, it wasn't just to get awards. And they passed that on to us. I think all of my siblings, we just believed.

Morgan Jones  
Yeah, I think that is so cool. And I love that your dad just turned and grinned at you. That's awesome. So in this essay, you talk about creating homes, and that those who enter our homes can experience God, like in that quote that I mentioned earlier. How did your parents teach you to create a home that was like a refuge? And what do you think are the greatest challenges that mothers face in creating that kind of home?

Virginia Pearce
I'm not sure. I think everyone has different challenges. I think the makeup of every home is different, the personalities are different. And what people come with from our pre-existence is different. But I believe that the best way mothers can create that kind of home is to have experiences with God themselves; to make sure that they are praying, and that they are pouring out their hearts to God; that somehow they are nourishing their spiritual self. Because that kind of a home means that God is there because they are experiencing Him, whether anybody else is or not. And that has to make a difference. I believe that's one of the huge things that we have going for us that we don't realize, is that whatever we do--and it may not show right now, it may not show in 20 years, it may not show for a very long time. But in the meantime, we're happy. And we're full of joy, and we're not undone by the difficulties of life or the difficulties our children are facing, or our husbands or whatever.

Morgan Jones  
Yeah. How did you see your mom, and also how have you tried to create space to nourish yourself? Because I feel like that could be the really tricky part.

Virginia Pearce
It is really tricky. When my children were young, one of the things I did was get up early every single morning before they got up, and I walked. I walked with a couple of friends. I walked alone to meet them so I had 10 minutes maybe all by myself out in the dark world, where I could just pray on the way to meeting them. And they happened to be people who were good and kind and generous and positive. And we would walk for a run for 30-45 minutes, and I'd go home. That, to me, was huge in terms of my nourishment.

Morgan Jones  
Yeah, I've been home during this quarantine. I have been in North Carolina with my family, and my mom has been going for a lot of walks. I think when everybody's cooped up inside, you've got to find a way to get out. So another thing that I love that you wrote in your essay, Sister Pearce, is you said, "Home is a refuge, but it is also a laboratory, a classroom." How have you seen that in both your home with your children and in the home that you were raised in?

Virginia Pearce  
Let me answer that a little bit differently because I think a lot now about how my expanded home still has to be,in some ways the laboratory—now that I have six children who are all married, and I have 27 grandchildren, and all sorts of adult people that are still a family, and that I'm still a mother for. And when I think about what my mother did for me as an adult, I am appalled that I'm not better at it with my children. And let me just tell you what she did that was just amazing, and it was so her that it didn't seem unusual. She would notice things about you that were great. And just in an offhand, casual way. It wasn't like a list she'd been practicing, she'd tell you, and they were dumb things. But when you're an adult, you still need a mom who thinks you're fabulous. And I forget that with my adult children, I forget, they still have a need to hear from me that they are really great people. So as I've been thinking about her and what she did for me, she said, like, I can remember when we moved away for the first time we lived in Omaha, Nebraska, she came to visit me, I had just one baby, and I'd only been there about three months, and we went downtown to go shopping. Omaha has some one-way streets downtown. So I was driving down the one-way streets to go into the parking lot to go shopping, and she said, "Oh my word, Ginny, I can't believe how you maneuver this city. Amazing. You've only been here for three months, and you know how to do these one-way streets." And honestly, I remember where we were on the road when she said that. Because what it said to me is, "I'm doing well out here in the world." And I needed my mother to tell me that.
I think about that all the time, and I think, "My children, even when they're 40, and 50, and whatever, they need me to tell them that they are really doing well out in the world. That they're good moms, and they're good dads. And it's just little things like she said one day to me, "Oh, I love the way your husband talks to your children." She said, "If you notice how cute he was the way he listens to them." And I'll tell you, when she said that, I thought, "He really is, he's a really good dad. And I'm really a lucky wife." And I think, I never ever heard my parents say anything negative about any of their sons- or daughters-in-law, which I think is really kind of amazing.

Morgan Jones  
That's remarkable.

Virginia Pearce  
It is remarkable. And when I hear other people complain about their sons-in-law or daughters-in-law, and I think, boy, the minute we were married and made that choice, they just looked for the good and they helped us look for the good, and that is so affirming. If your parent, if your mother says good things about your husband and your children, that's what you want, you know?

Morgan Jones  
Yeah.

Virginia Pearce  
I would call her sometimes and say, "I'm so worried about so-and-so, I'm so worried about one of my children," and she would just listen. And then maybe the next day, she'd call me and she'd say, "You know, I've been thinking about what we talked about. She's gonna be just fine. She's really gonna be just fine." Now, I believed her because she's my mother. Somebody else might be able to say that and I wouldn't believe it. But I think we mothers underestimate the good or, or the harm we can do all of our children's lives.

Morgan Jones
Yeah. I think that that's such an important thing to point out that we do. No matter how old you are. You're always looking to your parents for approval and validation. And we all just want to make them proud. Sister Pearce, for over a decade, you have had a very unique experience as a mother because your husband passed away—was it 2009?

Virginia Pearce 
Mm hmm.

Morgan Jones  
So I'm curious what unique challenges that has brought to you and your experience as a mother. And I think that that's something that a lot of people can relate to, but maybe something we don't talk about very much.

Virginia Pearce
I was really surprised when Jim died, to find out because he was gone, how our family had worked. You know, you see suddenly the part he played in parenting and the part I played in parenting and how they worked together, and all of a sudden you're missing a piece. And it's pretty difficult in that way, because when you're alone, you don't have anybody else to process problems with your family with, and there's nobody to say, "Oh, settle down, she's going to be okay," or to move in when you're exhausted or to move in when they can see that they've got something that the child needs that they can give them that you can't. So I look at single parenting and I have so much respect, so much respect for so many mothers who raise children without fathers. I think there's no way that we shouldn't give them all the support we have. And that's another thing that I kind of want to say, is that nobody's mother is everything. Nobody's mother is everything, and we find mothers all over. People who mother us and teach us and nurture us in ways that maybe our mother couldn't. And so when I look at single parents or even people who have both parents, I think we have an opportunity to mother wherever we go. I think it's a responsibility women have, is to reach out and mother and be mothered by others.

Morgan Jones  
That's beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. Before we get to our final question, I just wondered if you had any other words of wisdom or stories that have come to your mind about your parents or your family that you want to share. Before I ask the last question, is there anything else?

Virginia Pearce
Oh, I think supporting what your children are interested in is a big deal, or your grandchildren. And my mother was good at that. When my sister and I had three or four little children each, we were talking one day about how there were no church books from the LDS Church for our children. And in those days there weren't. And my mother listened to it and she said, "Oh, you girls could write one." We said we would kind of like to try that. And she said, "Look, I'll tend your kids, I'll tend all the kids," and I think we each had four, "I'll tend all the kids next week, and you girls sit down and write a book." So it's that kind of thing. I just think supporting what your children want to do this a big deal.

Morgan Jones  
Yeah, I love that. Is there anything that stands out in your mind—it just came to my mind—that I should ask you about being a grandmother? Anything else, other than supporting them, that you think would be useful or helpful?

Virginia Pearce 
I think, once again, it's that whole idea of just small but constant drip, drip, drip, letting them know how good they are. And it's pretty easy to do, frankly, with grandchildren. But there are some it's harder to do with than others. Some are more resistant to you, some are more inclined to want to be with you, but I just think that slow drip of letting them know that they're great people and they're going to make it is a big deal.

Morgan Jones 
Absolutely. Sister Pearce, you are a delight. Thank you so much for taking the time to be with me. My last question for you is what does it mean to you to be all in the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

Virginia Pearce
Wow, that's a big one, Morgan. To me it means first, last, and always, no matter what happens, I belong to the Church of Jesus Christ. And with all my heart, I believe it is the kingdom of God on earth. And I believe it gets to be my opportunity to build the kingdom. It says "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." It's my church. He's allowing me to help in His work and that doesn't just mean Church work. That just means rolling forth His light everywhere you go.

Morgan Jones
Thank you so much. Sister Pearce, thank you for taking the time to be with me.

Virginia Pearce  
Lovely to be with you, Morgan. Take care of yourself in North Carolina.

Morgan Jones
I will do it. I'll do it for sure. Thank you.
Isn't Sister Pearce wonderful? She's so down to earth, even when you meet her in a line at a wedding reception. So I hope that you feel you were able to spend some time with her today.

Next we have Breaunna Stone, who will share the experiences that led her to become a mother. Welcome, Breuanna.

Breaunna Stone
Thanks for having me. I'm really so excited to be here and share some thoughts with you today. So I'm so excited.

Morgan Jones
Well, we are thrilled to have you on the show. I have read your essay in this book and it is exceptional. And I told Breaunna this before we ever started, but I'm so glad because she represents my generation, which is awesome.

Breaunna Stone  
The younger girls out there. Oh, gosh. We're trying our best

Morgan Jones  
We are. We're trying our best. So I want to start with the essay that people will read in the book, and then we're going to kind of give people an update on what your life looks like now. So in the book, your essay is focused on miscarriage. This is something I just recently had a mission companion that went through a miscarriage. And she told me—at first, she didn't even want to tell me. Actually, another mission companion of ours told me that she had gone through this, and I was like, "Why didn't she tell me?" And she was like, "Well, it's just so hard because you don't want to seem like you're looking for sympathy." And so no one really talks about it. So can you tell us a little bit about your experience in trying to have children and these miscarriages that you experienced?

Breaunna Stone
Yeah, I think it's so interesting. Everyone that I talked to about this has that "Oh, my gosh, I've been through that," or, "my best friend went through that," or they have someone close to them that's experienced that and it's just not discussed. It's almost still a taboo topic, which is so crazy to me because miscarriage is a part of so many women's lives. And that was my whole intent of writing four years ago, this little blog article on my personal blog, just to share my experience. The whole motive was just to start talking about it. And four years ago, it wasn't discussed really at all. And now I feel like as time has gone on, people are starting to open up more, which I appreciate, and I hope that it continues to be that way.
But when I first married my husband, we knew that he wanted to go into medicine. So we kind of had our five-year plan of what medical school would look like, where we would try and fit in our kids. And we knew that we wanted to have a couple of kids, and we also knew that we wanted to hopefully adopt one day from Guatemala, that's where he served his LDS mission. And we had gone back as a couple and had some really cool experiences so we were really hoping to adopt from Guatemala and we wanted to have all these kids.
During our first year of marriage, we had a couple of really interesting experiences happen to us where we just felt like Heavenly Father was pushing us towards having kids a little bit sooner than we had planned. So we thought, "Okay, well, we're gonna put our faith in God and just go for it." And then I had also had an experience as a young girl, where—it's really special thing—where Heavenly Father had shown me that motherhood wouldn't come easy to me. I think at the young age that I had that experience, I wasn't quite sure what that would look like. And I didn't know anything about infertility and miscarriage, but I kind of went into my marriage and my young adulthood knowing that the blessing of motherhood would probably not come easy to me. So, long story short, we jump into all of this and we really struggled. We had five miscarriages, six babies, and our first miscarriage was a set of twins. And in between that, we had about a year of infertility, so infertility treatments, every test that you can do.
One thing that is so frustrating about it, and I think why so many people don't talk about it is it can be really embarrassing. I mean, you are trying so hard to keep this commandment and you're trying so hard and doing everything you can to have a family and it just doesn't work out. It just doesn't happen. And so, one of the hardest things, too, I think about is that, in most cases, there's no answer. There's no diagnosis, you get diagnosed with recurrent miscarriages with no probable cause of why, and that can be so excruciatingly painful as you watch, you know, your friends and your family have children, or whatever else it is, and you just kind of have to sit back and say, "Okay, Thy will be done and not mine." You just press forward and you keep moving forward. So that's a little bit about us. I think so many women struggle with that and sharing that, because so many people will tell them, "Well, it happens to everyone. Everyone goes through this." And, you know, I think that's so true that so many people do go through it, but it doesn't make your experience any less relevant to your life and who you're becoming.

Morgan Jones
Yeah, and I think that that point that you just touched on is so important. So, in the essay, Breaunna, you write about how you felt like you were waiting in the standby line. And I love this idea because it feels like you're having to wait for the right situation. I think this is something that most women, and probably men, have felt where they're just waiting for some different aspect of their life to come along. For me, that's been marriage. I'm not married. And so it's like, okay, like, you're just watching everybody else file through. So what have you learned about that standby line, and why are you now grateful for the time that you spent in it?

Breaunna Stone
I love this question, because when I thought of that analogy, I was like, "This doesn't make any sense." And then when I was talking to my husband, he's like, "No, it makes sense. Like you have been waiting so long." And the great thing about the standby line is, you always get on the plane. That blessing will always come, if that makes sense--like when you're in the standby line for getting on the plane. You always get on the plane, whether it's that day or the next day, you're just in that standby line, and you're waiting. And I thought of that from a quote from Elder Holland and that quote, sits in my living room and it says, "Some blessings come soon, and some come late, and some don't come until heaven; but for those who embrace the gospel of Jesus Christ, they come." And to me that standby line was just waiting for that promised blessing that I was just so righteously longing for. I think so often that wait can be so hard because you're thinking and praying, "Heavenly Father, I'm doing everything that I can. I'm doing everything I'm supposed to be doing and keeping my covenants and keeping the commandments. I'm trying so hard, and it just isn't happening." That promised blessing from that quote from Elder Holland is that some will come soon, and some will come later, and some you have to wait until heaven. And through all of that, I think a few things that I learned is that you don't find your happy life, but you make it--I think Thomas S. Monson said that--and for me that was just constantly doing my best. And there were days where it was like, dragging yourself out of bed, falling to your knees, and just pleading with Heavenly Father to help you find the good in your day, and to do your best, and to keep fighting, and to keep trying, and to keep living the way that Heavenly Father would have you live so you can be ready to accept that blessing. And I think I say in my essay, I chose to be happy. And when I say that, I don't want people to think, "Well, you just flip on the switch and you're happy and everything's great and fine," because it's not. Happiness takes practice, happiness takes patience, and I don't know that people really see that and really realize that when they're in the depths of this despair. Whether it's that you're waiting for marriage or family, or you have a wayward child that you're hoping to come back. In that most vulnerable time that you're in, that's when Satan is going to come in and work on you. Because he knows you. Not as well as Heavenly Father knows you, but he knows right at the moment that you are going to fall. And for me, waiting in that standby line was just constantly working for happiness, constantly trying to do my best, keeping my covenants, saying my prayers, just trying to get up every day, and do better, and be better, and find that happy life, and make that happy life--not find a happy life, but make that happy life. My big motivator for me and one of the great parts about the gospel of Jesus Christ is that, in order for me to be with my family forever, I have to keep my covenants here. And I couldn't—I just didn't have a choice. I didn't have a choice of being unhappy and not keeping the commandments and not trying my best, because I want that promised blessing. So that's just a huge motivator for me. I think that applies to whatever blessing you're waiting for. Because if you're not ready and prepared for it, then when it comes you might miss it.

Morgan Jones 
Absolutely, I love that so much. I have a friend, Lisa O'Neil, who we've done a video at LDS Living. Do you know, Lisa?

Breaunna Stone 
I think I've heard her story, yeah.

Morgan Jones 
So her husband wasn't a member of the Church, and she talks about like waiting. And she says, you know, just be ready for when that blessing comes. She waited 20 years for him to join the Church. So I think that that is so important. And I think that also, you know, recognizing that you're always, in a way, going to be waiting for something, and so kind of getting comfortable in that standby line, because there's always going to be something next that you're waiting for. You have now--this is so exciting that we get to tell people this update--you've now been able to adopt. Tell us a little bit about that experience. Your little girl is so precious.

Breaunna Stone
She is so precious. So that truly is probably the biggest blessing that we've seen from that wait in that standby line. So like I said before, my husband's in medicine, and we're in going into the third year of his medical degree. And it's insanely expensive, and we just didn't, we weren't well-educated on how much adoption would cost and everything else like that. So luckily, we got some great adoption education about a year ago. And we found out that we could adopt privately and stuff with an agency. And so there are two kinds of options: there's private adoption, and then agency adoption, and then there's foster-care adoption. So I guess there's a few. But, private adoption, there are lots of pros and cons to that. One of the things that is great about private adoption is that it can be less expensive in some cases. And so we fasted and prayed for months to know what we should do, because we felt so strongly about that, and we were just afraid. And so, we did it in Utah, you can adopt privately, which entails just marketing yourself. So you put yourself out there, we have a little adoption website about our family, and we just searched for the expectant mom that was hoping to make an adoption plan for her baby. So during those four years, we were just primed and prepped for this, and then Heavenly Father really timed it perfectly. We found our daughter's birth family over social media, and they reached out to us and we met with them and we were able to adopt our sweet birth mom's baby. So it's absolutely incredible though, because we look back on that timing, and we look back on everything that happened to us during those almost-five years and see just how Heavenly Father changed us and refined us and put us in the right path and in the right state for medical school and everything else, to be able to make it possible. She just turned one like two months ago, and we have had her since birth, and it is truly the best thing that's ever happened to us. And I think a lot of people think, well, for those who have experienced miscarriage and infertility, adoption is their plan B. And maybe it is for some people. For us, it was Plan A, we just didn't know that we could do it, and we were really lucky and really fortunate that our daughter is half-Guatemalan, and that's where we wanted to adopt from all those years ago. And so it just really worked out for us with a lot of faith and a lot of prayer and hope that it will work.

Morgan Jones  Well and I think that you made an interesting point when you said that you were afraid and that you had to put yourself out there. I've never thought about how vulnerable that must feel to put yourself in that position. Holy cow.

Breaunna Stone
It's wild, too, because not many people know that, when you adopt, you do home study, work and casework and everything, and part of that--they dive into every single part of your life, and it's all out there for everyone to see. And it's all out there and it's so vulnerable, and it's so scary, and it's such a difficult thing to do. And I honestly don't know how people do it without faith that God is directing them and making it happen because it's an incredible, amazing experience, and it's so hard but it pays off and we just love that little girl so much.

Morgan Jones
So I want to touch on that really quick. What have you learned, Breaunna, about our capacity, especially as women, to love and about a mother's love, specifically?

Breaunna Stone 
You know, over the years after having all these experiences, I think one of the biggest things I've learned about love is through our Savior's Atonement. I think all that I've learned about love comes from the Atonement of Jesus Christ. How He not only paid for our sins, but felt every heartache and every hope that we had, and every excruciatingly painful time where a friend has a baby and you just lost one, you know. He felt every feeling that I had on such a personal level. And what a great way to learn how to love, from Him. And that strengthening and enabling power of His Atonement just helped me when I was struggling the most and helped me love others and have compassion and care for those that were experiencing the same thing as me. The way He cares for me, and the way that he loves me. And a mother's love is something that I didn't realize would be so innate, so ingrained and just who I am. How I love my daughter is something that is just, it's godlike, and I think that that is one of the coolest things about becoming a mother is, that is something that is part of who you are. And it's a blessing that God has bestowed upon you as a woman and as a mother to love your child and I think that that comes through our Savior. And another thing that I learned so much about mother's love is from our daughter's birth mom. She is absolutely incredible, and the deep love that she had for our daughter enabled her to make an adoption plan and to find a family that was hoping for a baby and hoping for a family. And she sacrificed everything so that I could be a mom, you know. And learning that from her has been something that I will never forget, and I'll always cherish. And it's such a privilege. It's such a privilege to be able to raise this daughter in my home, and with the gospel from this mother who sacrificed everything, who gave everything, so that I could be a mom. So it's an incredible, incredible thing. And I am just so grateful to my Heavenly Father and so grateful to the Savior to teach me those lessons through all of this.

Morgan Jones  
Absolutely. Breaunna, thank you so much for sharing your experience. This has been honestly enlightening for me, so thank you so much. As we wrap up, I just have one last question for you. And that is, what does it mean to you to be all in the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

Breaunna StoneTo me, being all in the Gospel of Jesus Christ--I think of the primary song, "I'm Trying to be Like Jesus," where it says, "I'm trying to be like Jesus, I'm following in His way. I'm trying to love as He did in all that I do and say." And that is like an anthem for my life, is being "all in" in this gospel is trying and doing your best. We hear over and over in general conference, "God loves effort. Just keep trying. Just keep believing. Heaven is cheering you on." And I really do believe that if you are doing your best, and trying your best, and being your best, and falling to your knees to ask for help to be your best, we can become more like our Savior, which is the ultimate goal--to be back with our Heavenly Father and Savior.

Morgan Jones 
Beautiful. Breaunna, thank you so so much.

Breaunna Stone
Thanks for having me.

Morgan Jones   
Happy Mother's Day.

Breaunna Stone
Thanks!

Morgan Jones 
We are so grateful to Breaunna stone for sharing her story.
Last, but certainly not least, we have KaRyn Lay who will share how a priesthood blessing led her to befriend an unlikely person, and how that friendship has blessed her life. Hello, KaRyn.

KaRyn Lay  
Oh, hi, Morgan.

Morgan Jones   
Well, I feel like we should tell everybody that KaRyn is the person that puts up with me on a daily basis. She deserves some kind of gold star.

KaRyn LayHey, listen, let's talk about who deals with who because I'm pretty sure it's an even playing field there. Morgan Jones.

Morgan Jones 
No, no, it's not I'm pretty sure it's not, but I am so excited for people to have the chance to hear your story and to learn from you because I learn from KaRyn on a daily basis. I think that where I'd like to start, if it's okay with you, is leading up to the point where you got married. So tell people first of all, how old you were when you got married. And then I want to hear about your desire to get married and to have kids and to be a mom before you had that opportunity.

KaRyn Lay
Okay, so first of all, I love that you're like, "Tell everybody how old you were when you got married."

Morgan Jones 
It's probably, like, not polite. I'm sorry.

KaRyn Lay 
We're past polite. Also, I actually am really proud of how old I was. I was 34 when I got married, and it was my first marriage, and my husband's second marriage, but I always thought that like—I grew up in a family with seven kids, right? Like, my mom had all seven of us by the time she was 31. And so when I started to think about my life and the trajectory of it, I always just assumed I'd be 31 with 10 children. I don't know how that would happen. But you know, math is not my strong suit. But I always just thought kids were part of the equation, and that I would marry pretty quickly, and that I would kind of follow that same path. And every year that kept not happening. I went to college and then I started to always think that I would adopt. Like, I came home from my mission and fostered a child for a year after my mission and realized pretty quickly that I can love other people's children with a depth that I think a lot of people might find weird, right? I just had the capacity to love someone else's child with a kind of love that I that surprised even me. And so then I started to think, as I got older and older and marriage still wasn't in the cards, that adoption was an option for me. And I was never afraid to date guys who had kids. That just never freaked me out. What's interesting about that, though, is that I didn't ever think of myself as a stepmother. Like, I just thought I would love someone else's kids and that they'd become my kids and maybe it would be someone who was widowed or somebody, you know, where the kids would be mine and I would just like own them. No, but like—

Morgan Jones 
You would inherit that.

KaRyn Lay  
I would inherit them, and they would belong to me and our family. Stepmother was never part of the vision. So when I met my husband, and he had kids, that was easy. I loved his kids immediately, I loved him. And I was like, "Oh, this will be this will be easy." It was after we got married. And I realized that by marrying into a family where the biological mother was still part of the picture, that's when it got super hard for me, because all of a sudden, I was like, I don't have any point of reference for this. I have no way of knowing how to manage a totally separate family that is somehow part of our family now.

Morgan JonesYeah. And so that's what you write about in your essay in this book, and I loved your essay. I think just because it was so real and gave people insight into something that I think they probably don't think about--that being part of your experience when you marry someone who is sharing children with someone else. So tell me a little bit, you mentioned that with your kids, you instantly loved them. Before we get to their mother, can you tell us about what you felt for them when you first met them and what you remember about when you first met Justin's kids?

KaRyn Lay 
Oh my gosh, I'm such a crier. I'm totally gonna cry about this. So I actually remember the moment that I got to meet Justin's kids. We went to this water park in Provo, I was in graduate school and Justin had packed this little lunch and we went to this water park with the two kids, and his six-year-old daughter, Kayla, had a broken arm. But she had cut her own hair and had this, like, she just looked like a wild thing. And she was smiling all the time. And his son was so cute too. He had just this little ginger kid, and I remember that we were at the waterpark and his daughter came up to me and said, "Come with me. I want to go down the slide." And she grabbed my hand and took me to a slide. Now listen, I know that's probably like, I'm a total stranger, and probably someone should have been concerned. But luckily I'm a safe human being. And we went to this waterslide together with a plastic bag over her cast. And I remember thinking at that moment, I feel like a family. Like we went back to meet everybody else who was having a picnic and it just felt so normal. And it felt so easy and that's when I just sort of fell in love with the whole family, to be frank, like, that's what I fell in love with. And I think anyone who has married into kids when they're about that age probably feels the same thing. It's really easy to love a six-year-old and eight-year-old are so adorable.

Morgan Jones
Yeah, I think that there may be some people that are watching right now that are like, "Well, how old are the kids now?" You know, because I think that the thing that's tricky is, it's one thing to be a stepmom to little kids, and then I think as they get older, that becomes progressively more difficult, just as any parenting does. Parenting, in general, becomes more difficult. So how has that how have you handled that?

KaRyn Lay 
Well, I think it's really interesting. I'm part of a stepmother group on Facebook that a friend of mine who is also a stepmother, we got married around the same time to men who had kids, and we started a support group for each other because we were like, "We can't do this without other people. They're just too many variables," like too many things where, things you thought and expectations you had for how your life was going to turn out and how your parenting was going to be, those things all sort of go out the window. And so you really do need each other. You need a voice of reason. And one of the things that I think we kept hearing in that group and that I think I was saying as well was, "Oh, this is this is what I'm experiencing, and this is so frustrating." And it was really hard to differentiate between, what is step parenting difficult, and what is normal teenage/preteen acting out? Right?

Morgan Jones
Yeah.

KaRyn Lay
Because sometimes as a step-parent, they have this whole baggage of a divorce or a death or something else that came with the separation of their original family. And so we're constantly tiptoeing around--what is the cause of this particular meltdown or this particular acting out? And so I think being a step-parent to teenagers, and to little kids, they all have their own challenges, but that's one of the biggest challenges, is trying to know what's normal for kids and what's part of their original trauma from the divorce, or from the separation.

Morgan Jones 
Yeah, you mentioned KaRyn, your capacity to love and that that was something that you felt like, even before Justin came along, that was something that you recognized as a strength that you had, and I think that absolutely is a strength that you have as a human is a capacity to love. Why would you say, though, that it is worth the effort, all the challenges that come with being a stepparent? All of the, I'm sure, so many tricky situations to navigate, and we're going to talk about one of those. But why is it worth it to you?

KaRyn Lay
Oh, well, I don't have any biological children of my own. And I won't ever have biological kids. And there's something really magical about family. I mean, there's a sense of choice that comes in with stepparenting. And it's not always easy. It's not always easy to choose that love and to choose that, and I don't know what that's like in another family system, because I've only ever had this particular one as a married person, but it's worth it because it expands us, and it pushes us, and it offers, the kids that we are loving and caring for, it offers them different perspectives on life that they wouldn't get in a different situation. I think about it, like I grew up with my parents who I love and adore. And they taught me one way of doing things. But my kids are seeing so many different ways of living the Gospel, so many different ways of following Jesus Christ, all with the same end in mind, right? Like, we're all trying to get to the same place, but they have all these beautiful examples of living a Christlike life from four different parents, which is really cool. And I think it's worth it to put your heart out there anytime that you can. I think it's worth it to do that hard work.

Morgan Jones 
Yeah. Well, I cannot tell you how many times that I've thought in our office, just hearing you have conversations with your stepchildren or hearing you have conversations with Justin about your kids, or you talking to us in the office about how good your kids are and how much you love them. And that doesn't mean that there's not hard things, but I have often thought when those conversations are going on, I've thought, "Man, those kids are so lucky to be loved by KaRyn." And I mean that 100 percent.

KaRyn Lay 
Thanks, Morgan.

Morgan Jones
They're very fortunate. The last thing before we get to our all in question is about this relationship with your children's mother that you talk about in the essay. I thought this was such a unique take, and I wondered if you could just share a little bit about how you have come to appreciate her, and also what navigating that relationship has taught you about women as a whole.

KaRyn Lay
Oh, that's a really good question. So I think it's really interesting because I wouldn't advise that every stepmother have this type of relationship with their kids' mother. It really depends on your individual situation. There are a lot of people that this is not advisable. There are different types of boundaries and different ways that you have to move in the world. So for me, I always wanted kids of my own, and I had very clear ideas about how I was going to raise my kids and what they would care about and what musical instruments they would play, and what time they'd go to bed. Just all the things that I thought my kids would have, and coming into a place where they already had a mom, that sometimes really hurt. It hurt not to have the control that you think you want to have in your life, the one that you expect. And so sometimes I caught myself thinking of their mom as the enemy, as somebody that was ruining my plans and my dreams for these children that I didn't bear, right? And I got a blessing once for something else, and in the middle of the blessing, the person who has given me the blessing said the phrase that I needed to seek out a relationship with my children's mother, and that that would actually bless my life. And that was not what I wanted to hear in any way, shape or form, because I was like, "I got enough friends, and I need a common enemy, and this is really going to ruin all my plans for how I'm going to move in the world." But I also kind of got the sense that if I wanted to have peace in my life and I wanted to feel joy in my family relationships, that I couldn't ignore this other part of this family, and that was their mom and the kids' stepdad, who is also awesome. And so I set out to strike up a conversation and become friends, but it felt so awkward at first. And then we started to just have longer conversations, and the spiritual impression that I got was that my friendship with her, with Nikki, would become a comfort to me. And I did not see how that could possibly happen at the beginning. And it took a while. I'm not gonna lie, it took a while for us to feel that but now, I have an ally and she has an ally and we are all allied together, and I think that's really what's best for our kids. I'm not saying that's best for every kid. I wish and hope that everyone could have that, but I know that for our kids, they needed that sense of unity. And so now we can sit next to each other, they'll save seats at the at the high school/junior high choir concert. We've laughed together as we've listened to like, the little screeching violin concerts where you're just like, "Oh my gosh, this is what parents do." And it's been good for us. It's been good for our family. And you asked what it means what it's taught me about women?

Morgan Jones
Yeah. About women.

KaRyn Lay
I think that we have the capacity to lift one another up. Even when we think it's too hard to do. Like, talk about competition. Talk about competition, I'm sure it's hard for her to feel like there's this other person in her kid's life that they might want to talk to about the good things that are happening for them. And it would be really easy for me to become competitive with her for their affections, for all the different things that come with parenting. But I've learned that women need each other, and that there's enough to go around. I think that that's the beauty of this type of stepparenting, is that there's an abundance, and the kids feel that, and we as women have the capacity to give that to each other and to the children that we love.

Morgan Jones   
Yeah. Yeah, I was just talking yesterday, and I think by the time this comes out on audio, this episode will have aired, but I was just talking with Whitney Johnson, who we both know. And one thing that she talked about is creating rather than competing, and I think that what you've done is you've created something really special by resisting the tendency that the natural man has to compete, and instead you've created this really beautiful thing, so I really admire that.

KaRyn Lay 
Can I just can I tell you one other quick thing? So there's this motto in "Al Anon," which is like the counterpart to Alcoholics Anonymous for family members of addicts. And they always say in their meetings, "You may not like us all, but you will come to realize that you need us, and that we're all important in some special way." And that's paraphrasing that, but I've thought about that a lot. In this situation, we don't even have to like each other all the time. There are going to be times where there's dissonance and things aren't going exactly the way you want, and so liking is a gift, right? To like somebody is a gift. But to love is a God-given gift. And you can love anybody because God and Jesus Christ make that possible for us. So whether you like everybody that you're in a stepfamily or a family with, you can still love them. And I think that that can come from the Atonement of Jesus Christ, through His grace.

Morgan Jones
That's beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing that. KaRyn, the last question, you know what's coming. You helped us come up with this question. What does it mean to you to be all in the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

KaRyn Lay  
Yeah, that's a great question. It changes for me, you know? But I think the essence of it, the essence of being all in, means that you keep moving, you keep trying, and you keep showing up. And when you do get spiritual impressions, you follow them and you seek understanding about what the purpose and the reason for those impressions is. I really just think it's about building that relationship with Christ, and keep showing up.

Morgan Jones
I love that. Thank you so much. KaRyn, thank you for sharing your goodness, with us.

KaRyn Lay   
Thanks, Morgan. Love you.

Morgan Jones
Love you. We are so grateful to KaRyn for sharing her story, and thank you all so much for listening.
You can find All Kinds of Mothers, which is full of wonderful stories like these on desertbook.com, or in stores now. A big thank you to Derek Campbell for his work on this week's episode. And before we go, I just want to take a second to wish my very own mother a very Happy Mother's Day. Mama, you are the absolute best, and I love you. Until next week, everyone please stay safe and healthy and we'll look forward to another week of All In.