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[00:00:00] Meg Walter is one of the very few journalists whose writing I find so compelling that I seek it out by author. And when you love someone's writing, like I love Meg's writing, you feel as if they've become a dear friend. When Meg trained for a marathon, I felt like I went through training with her. And when she writes about funny experiences with her kids, I feel like we could be mom friends at lunch, comparing notes.

But in August 2024, when she lost her Father, unexpectedly following a heart attack, I felt so sad as if someone I knew had passed away. I didn't know Meg's father and I didn't even really know Meg, but just as reading someone's writing connects us, grief has the ability to do the same. It can also help us feel more connected to heaven and more connected to God.

And that is what I talk about with Meg Walter on today's episode. Meg Walter is a staff writer for the Deseret News who covers ideas and culture in Utah and beyond. Additionally, she is the co host of two podcasts, Hive Mind and StrangerVille. She also recently started a substat. called living in a material world.

This is All In, an LDS Living podcast where we ask the question, what does it really mean to be all in the gospel of Jesus Christ? I'm Morgan Pearson, and I am so excited to have Meg Walter on the line with me today. Meg, welcome. Hi, Morgan. Thanks so much for having me. I am both nervous and excited to be here.

Oh, don't be nervous because you, you know this. I am like your biggest fan. Oh, stop. I literally read like everything that you write. And frequently my husband can attest to this. I frequently say to my husband, like, you have to hear how funny. This is and I'll start reading it and then I like laughing so hard that I can't even like tell him what I'm reading.

I am unable to read. I'm speechless. So you have a, you have a gift and I'm excited to get to talk with you. so much. Well, first of all, I wondered if we could start with where does your great sense of humor come from? I feel like it's just not everybody is that funny and also not everybody's sense of humor can translate onto paper.

So talk to me a little bit about where does your sense of humor come from and how do you make that come through when people are reading? Thank you. First of all, I undoubtedly comes from my family. And the funny thing is, is that I'm not the funny one in my family. My siblings are both much funnier than I am.

My younger brother was always the one telling jokes and getting people laughing when we were growing up. But I think that my skill set is observation. And that's the one skill you absolutely have to make humor translate to paper. Observation and communication. So I can I can observe a funny situation and I can describe it to you.

Therefore, you think I'm funny. I'm really pulling a fast one on you. But yeah, it definitely, my sense of humor definitely came from my family. I was always that kid who wanted to sit with the adults and listen to the adults talking and tell jokes. I, my dad, especially we, we very much shared a sense of humor.

Um, and we'd stay up late watching mystery science 3000. I don't know if you're familiar, uh, you're probably too young, but it was on, I think it was like the sci fi channel where it was a man and two robots with whom he lived in a space station for some reason. And they would watch old, really bad, like B movies.

And they would watch sit and they jokes about them. And we just thought that was the funniest thing in the entire world. Anytime it was on, we'd stay up way past my bedtime, watching it laughing. And yeah, I just, I, I was lucky to grow up with funny parents who I think taught me what it meant to be funny.

I love what you said about observation. My husband and I were just watching Nate Bargatze the other night. And my husband said, how much of what he says, do you think is actually real? And I was like, I don't know, but it all feels very relatable, which is what I think makes him, him funny. Is that ability to like observe something that's funny in real life and relay it.

Yeah. Put words to observation. Yeah. That is, that is a talent and you definitely have it. So one thing that you typically write about is culture, um, and specifically because you write for the Deseret News, a lot of it is either about Utah culture [00:05:00] or Latter day Saint culture. And so I wondered for you, what do you think it is that makes Latter day Saint culture so intriguing to people, I think both inside and outside of the church?

And so I wondered, wondered what your thoughts are about our culture as Latter day Saints. Yeah, I, I want to first say that I think if you get any group of humans together, inevitably something hilarious is going to happen. And more, the more often that group of people gets together, the more hilarious things are going to happen.

And it always kills me when, uh, People outside of Utah, or those not familiar with Latter day Saint culture, talk about the church in like a shroud of mystery, um, like there's all these secrets to be uncovered. When I'm, I think, If any one of those people went to a sacrament meeting, they would think, Oh, this is a comedy.

This is, this isn't a, this isn't a thriller. This isn't a mystery. This is a comedy because people are funny, whether on purpose or not. The jokes people tell from the pulpit are sometimes funny, sometimes really hacky, but that's also funny. We have an open mic Sunday, once a month, you know, where anything can happen.

Every once in a while something does, um, but I think the very funniest part about our culture is the kids. Anyone who served in primary can tell you how hilarious the children are. I was in primary on Sunday listening to my daughter give a talk. So I was there for opening exercises and as the kids were walking in and one kid I've never met in my life.

Turned to me and said, this is torture and rolled his eyes and went and sat down. Have not met this child. He just needed an audience. He just, and I was happy to be that for him. They're so funny. Watch any kid in sacrament meeting and you're going to laugh. I think it's the best time. Yeah. Um, my husband and I were in primary.

We taught the five year olds in our ward in California. And we would come home every Sunday with great stories. So I think you're, I think you're spot on about that as you have written for, for Deseret News. How long have you been writing for D News now? Oh, it's been four years. I was a contributor for a year before I went full time.

I was full time. For three years, and I just recently went back to being a contributor since you started writing for a desert news I feel like as a reader and I'm sure other people listening can relate if they they read your stuff I feel like we've gotten a sense of who you are But in the last year in particular, I think there's been you've written Stuff that hasn't just been funny and not that you've always written funny stuff, but I think this past year has been harder for you and you've given readers a glimpse into that, which has only made us love you more, but I, I wanted to kind of delve into that a little bit, uh, which will obviously be less funny.

But when I first reached out to you about being on the podcast, you said that you had had kind of a complicated relationship with your faith. And months later, you reached out and said you felt more comfortable talking about it. And I appreciated that honesty, because I think a lot of people, and I think even myself included, sometimes I feel a lot more capable of talking about my faith.

And I wondered if you could tell listeners a little bit about your experience with faith and maybe why you were hesitant initially, and then what changed? What made you feel like, okay, I can talk about this? Yeah, absolutely. First, I want to say, mom, don't panic. I'm fine. Um, I, I, a big part of the reason why I said no initially, well, the first reason was because the name of your podcast really freaked me out.

And I, I never want to set myself up as a, an example of the perfect member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. Um, I think that one would not have to look far to find evidence that that's not me, um, including my interests. I, I spend. Much of my time thinking and talking and writing about pop culture.

I, you know, I, I enjoy a lot of frivolous things. Um, and I also have a lot of relationships with people who are very important to me who have stepped away from the church. Um, and I never. I don't want to do anything [00:10:00] to alienate them. And I think that I get so in my head that I thought that doing something like publicly talking about my faith would be, um, something that would put a canyon.

In a relationship, and then I realized I wasn't giving those people enough credit and that they are all, they have all only ever shown me grace about our differences in belief. Sorry, it makes me emotional to talk about and that they would absolutely show me that grace if I were to talk about it publicly.

And I don't expect everyone to show me grace. I've seen a lot of discussions about faith go sideways, particularly online. Um, I think that it's a very sensitive and oftentimes personal subject, but I am trying really hard to be more comfortable with who I am. And the choices that I make and to be proud of those choices.

And I also really like you and I listened to some of your podcasts and, uh, understood that you were very good at holding, speaking of pop culture, holding space, uh, for people and their, um, beliefs and what they perceive as their own shortcomings. So I eventually came around to the idea and I'm so grateful that you were willing to have me back.

Well, you're willing to extend the invitation again. Oh, I, I'm so glad that you feel that way. And I'm also, I, I'm glad that we're having that conversation because I told you this Meg before we ever started the interview, but I think one thing. That when we first started this podcast, we were worried about the name.

Um, we went through a bunch of different names and this one was just the one that we kept coming back to. But we were like, how do we make it so it's clear that it's not like, this is a podcast where people come on and they tell us why they're so great and why they're so perfect at living the gospel.

And instead, like, that's why we, the last question is what does it mean to you to be all in? Because. I think all of us are trying and would like to be better than we are, but in the process, like, we all come as we are. And I think that everybody brings something really important to the table. And it's important to, to make sure that everybody feels welcomed in as we're trying to be all in.

And so. With that said, thank you so much for sharing that. I wanted to talk a little bit about your, one thing that made this past year difficult for you. Um, and one thing that you've shared a lot about is that your father passed away unexpectedly and. It's clear in your writing that your dad was a great dad and is a great dad and an awesome person.

So I wondered how did that impact your faith at a time when it was clear based on our communication, Meg, that you were kind of feeling more settled in your faith and then you kind of have that blow. Uh, yes, and I'm so sorry that my voice is going to be like this for the rest of the episode. My goal for 2025 is to be able to talk about this without crying, and uh, we're in January, so luckily I have a ways to go.

The death of my dad was the most spiritual experience that I never wanted.

Um, the week that he died was the worst week of my life, but also the most spiritual week of my life. Um, I've never, I've

never felt heaven so tangibly. As I did that week, um,

and that manifested in a lot of different ways, um, but the overwhelming feeling that I had was just absolute sorrow coupled with absolute peace.

We were devastated, uh, that he died so unexpectedly at 62.

But I never for a second doubted that I'd see him again. And I don't know that that's, if you had given me that hypothetical [00:15:00] anytime before his passing, I don't know that I would have been able to say that with such confidence that I knew without a doubt that I'd see him again. I can't say that I'm grateful to have had that experience and to have had it bolster my faith.

Like if I could, I, I wouldn't do it again. You know, I would, I would live in doubt for the rest of my life if it meant I could have more time with my dad, but that's not how it shook out. So if I have to be grateful for something, I'm grateful for what that week taught me. I also panicked a little when he died because he was always the person I turned to with questions about spirituality.

And I remember one conversation we had where he, uh, I'm, I'm a skeptic and I've always been a skeptic. And he told me, he said, you and I are cut from the same cloth. Um, you and I, we, we ask questions and we, we question authority and, um, at his viewing, uh, all kinds of people came through and a lot of people from my home ward.

And one of my favorite comments was from a man who said, I loved your dad. It was always me and him stirring up trouble in Sunday school. And that, that was my dad, like he'd love to be the antagonist, you know, and he loved to get conversations going and he loved to ask, what about, um, Mostly for sport, but when it really mattered, he was always willing to sit with me in my doubts and in my questions, and he was always willing to say, I don't know, um, which is something I really valued from him because important part of my faith has been the ability to say, I don't know, and I might never know.

And so I, I really wondered what I would do with him not being here anymore, but I have since realized that even though he's not physically here, what he has always said to me still is, and I know what he would say to me anytime questions arise. And I'm incredibly grateful for that. I love that. I love that idea of, I know what he would say to me.

I think there's something about when you know somebody really intimately where they like become the voice inside your head and you know, they don't have to be there for you to know what they would say. First of all, I'm so sorry about your dad. I, my husband and I were just talking right before I sat down to do this interview and we were talking about somebody.

Completely different. Whose father had passed away. And, uh, I said something about the person was in college and I said, you know, so not in high school, but still too young to lose your dad. And my husband said, it's always, you're always too young to lose your dad. Um, I don't think anybody is ready for that to lose a parent.

Right. But I, I loved, I've loved reading some of the things that you have learned. And if you're like, I get the impression, Meg, that you're like me and that you kind of process some things through writing. Yeah. Unfortunately, I definitely do that. But in one of your articles, you shared something that you had learned from your dad's funeral.

And I'm going to read just a little bit of this. I think listeners will enjoy getting a taste of your writing as well. You said, when Jacob Marley visits Ebenezer Scrooge in A Christmas Carol and tries to warn Scrooge of his fate, should he continue living as he was, Scrooge reminds him, but you were always a good man of business, Jacob, to which Marley replies, mankind was my business.

The common welfare was my business. Charity, mercy, forbearance, and benevolence were all my business. And then you said, as I talked with those who came to pay their respects at my dad's funeral. And as I've talked with many of his friends, since not a single person has mentioned what my dad achieved or what he did for work or what kind of house he lived in or how he looked or what he drove or what kind of prestigious awards he won or any of the things that people generally think.

Signify a life well lived. Instead, every visitor and every friend to a person express their appreciation for how my dad had treated them, how he had maintained their relationship, how he had gone out of his way often to make them feel. And I hope if there's anything I can learn from his passing it's that those should be my business too what do you think it was [00:20:00] Meg?

About your dad that made people feel loved And what did you learn as you greeted people? I think that experience of, of these kids Losing someone is so unique in terms of building faith while at the same time feeling like everything has been shaken up. What do you feel like you have learned in the wake of your dad's passing about what he did to make mankind his business?

You know, it's, I should not talk with a tissue in front of my face. It's, I, it's, I hated being at the viewing. It was absolute torture to stand, it was like a dreadful wedding where you're standing in a line making small talk with people you kind of know. People you've never met, who don't even necessarily want to, they're not there even to see you.

Um, and that was a really awkward and hard experience for me. But I, I think that I learned more about my dad in those two hours than I ever had before. Um, as people shared their stories of how he had shown up for them and the math didn't make sense in my head because every single person had an experience where he had called them when they needed him to.

He had gone out of his way to help them with something. He was a bishop on BYU campus and so many of his students from that ward showed up, which was so sweet, but they all shared experiences of how he had helped them and how he had meetings with them and how he had been there with them in the hospital when they needed him.

And I kept thinking, how could he have been there for all of you when he was always there for me? It was like he had extended just as much love to them as he had to me, and he had always extended so much love to me, and one of the ways he did that, as you mentioned, I processed through writing. Writing is the language that I speak.

It's the thing I value most, and he The number of people who came through the line and said, Oh my gosh, my dad, your dad was sent me your articles all the time. And that was so humiliating, but so touching that he had just at random some kid that was in his BYU ward five years ago, sent them a Facebook messenger link with my article.

I mean, but he knew that that was what was important to me and he always showed up for me in that way. And he showed up for everyone. Where they were and in the language that they spoke. He had this ability to just see people as they were and meet them where they were and talk to them the way they needed to be talked to that made them feel truly seen and loved.

That is without a doubt a gift and one that I would like to be better at. Meg, you've also shared how other people served your family during that time. What did you learn? I think it's really unique going through any kind of hard time, how you see that people serve in their own ways. Like, they do what they know how to do and being the recipient of service is really unique in that way.

But what do you feel like you learned from being the one that was on the receiving end of kindness amidst grief? Yeah, I actually sat down with Sarah Weaver, editor of Deseret News, yesterday to talk about this for a forthcoming podcast, and I told Sarah, I have always been really uncomfortable with being the recipient of service.

I never want to be a project. I really value my independence and being able to take care of myself. But my dad's passing was the first time that I ever felt just so grateful for people's willingness to show up. Um, My dad, we, the morning that we found out he had passed, we went to where he was, which was just absolute chaos and traumatic.

But then we, we came home to my mom's house and outside of her house was just a line of neighbors. Who had heard what had happened and wanted to be there for her and just, people just kept showing up all day. Um, either bringing themselves or bringing flowers or bringing food and just hugged my mom and hugged us and they, they haven't stopped showing up.

I mean, my dad passed away in August and it's January and we still just feel so enveloped in love. And one thing that I What I didn't understand prior [00:25:00] to this experience is the way grief leaves you in a love deficit because someone you loved who loved you is no longer there and that makes you feel a real lack of love.

And there were so many people and still are so many people who just innately understand that what we need is love from them to help fill that deficit. And I've just been so, I'll never forget all the people who reached out, who brought meals, who sent flowers, who sent texts, it all meant so much to me in a way that I'm really surprised by.

I didn't think it would. I didn't think it would matter as much as it did, but it's really made a difference and it's, it's made me feel ashamed that I haven't been there more for people in the past. And it's really made me want to, uh, do more for people going through hard things in the future. Oh, this is a different kind of example, but that's what you just said is how I felt after having a baby.

Yeah. I have underestimated how much it means when somebody brings you a meal. Determine that I will be better. But I love Meg, what you said about the love deficit and that people have tried to fill that void because that makes it make more sense that like every little bit can count toward.

Yeah. And not that it would ever take the place, but that every little bit can kind of try to eventually equal the hat. Um, and that's why I think it's important to do our part. I've shared this story on this podcast before, but it's been years. My grandma, you mentioned like finding out stuff about your dad, his viewing my grandma who's viewing.

A lady came through the line and told us this story about how she was my grandma's neighbor. My grandma didn't really know her, but her husband, this lady's husband had passed away. And my grandma was a widow for years. And she said that this lady told us that after her husband passed away, my grandma called and she said, and this is like a couple months later.

So it's after like. All the funeral and viewing, which I think that's when things get really lonely for a widow. But my grandma called and she said, could I just come and sit with you? And the lady was like, what? My grandma was like, would it be okay if I just came and sat with you? And the lady was like, honestly, like that was exactly what I needed in that moment.

And so I think sometimes that ability to just be willing, like you said, to stop by and try to do what you can, I think makes a huge difference. Um, what do you wish Meg people knew about navigating grief, even for someone with a great sense of humor? Who usually like finds the light in things because I think that's been the interesting thing for me reading your pieces is like, this is somebody that's usually very light hearted, very funny, but that doesn't mean that someone like you doesn't greet.

So what do you wish people knew about that? Two things can exist at the same time. You can, the day he died, I remember thinking I need to start writing all of these funny things down because there's so many funny things happening that my dad would just get the biggest kick out of in this whole process because it's just absolute chaos when someone dies, you know, and there's like all these wacky people everywhere showing up saying things like there's just kind of like a lot of Pretty dark, but funny things that happen and everything has to get done in like three days.

And you're out of your mind. You're out of your mind. You're making decisions when you're in no state to make decisions. Just, you know, so there was a lot of moments where I was like, this is, this is the saddest I've ever been, but this is also hilarious. So that's one thing I think that. Um, as time has gone on, I've learned that sadness is just kind of an emotion that's always with you when you're grieving, and from what I've heard, maybe never goes away.

But, uh, it gets more It gets easier to feel other emotions along with the sadness. So it's, uh, it's easier, it's getting easier for me to laugh at jokes, even though I'm still sad. And it's getting easier for me to get really excited about a kid's sporting event, even though I'm still sad, you know, for the first while you're just eclipsed by sadness.

And I don't know that that sadness ever goes away, but there, there, Their space grows for other emotions. The other thing I [00:30:00] tell people is that everything you've heard about grief is true. You won't internalize it until you're going through it. But one of the best analogies I've heard is you're. You're in the ocean, and your back is facing the waves.

And in the beginning, the waves are coming all the time. You're just getting tossed around. And after a while, the waves start to subside. But your back is still to the waves, and you just don't know when it's going to sneak up on you. The other day, my kids were getting ready to go to see a play. One of my daughters was going, one of my other daughters wasn't going.

And my second daughter said to my oldest daughter, Oh, get me some Mentos. And she said that because my dad had taken them to go see a play. And when they were there, they got a whole bunch of treats, including Mentos. And my initial thought was, Oh, I can't wait for them to go do that with him again. And then I remembered.

And it's just a lot of that. It's like you, you remember your feelings before you remember your thoughts. And I just haven't adjusted to the reality that my dad isn't here. And so I'll find myself thinking, I can't wait to see my dad on Sunday. Or I can't wait for my dad to teach my son golf or all of these things.

And then half a second later, I remember. And I think that's something that you just have to be prepared for when we all inevitably go through the grieving process. That's so well said. Thank you for sharing that. Meg, how would you say? Your faith. Um, and I, I want to acknowledge something I realized earlier when you said, you know, that you realized that you weren't giving people credit for the grace that they would show you and being yourself.

Um, or you weren't giving, giving, giving them a chance to love you for who you are. Um, and, and trying to take ownership over who you are and your faith. Yeah. I think that that is. That's a really beautiful thing to acknowledge and to share. And so I wondered, like, as you were kind of coming into that and feeling that way, how has your faith helped you through the things that you've experienced in the last year?

Um, I'll, I'll start with that. I hope talking about the ward counts. I hope, I hope the ward counts as faith in answering this question. I don't know that I've ever put a ton of value into the ward as a community. Like I, I, uh, I've never needed the ward for anything other than being a time to show up on Sunday, you know, and a lot of time.

That's not like where my social life has been centered. It's, it's never been like, oh, I live and die by my ward. What? This summer, they, uh, they rearranged the ward boundaries in our stake, uh, you know, to much kerfuffle, um, but they took half of the ward I was, we were previously in and put it with another ward.

And this was two or three weeks before my dad died. Um, I had never met the bishop. I had never, I think I had briefly met the Relief Society president. I knew only the people who had come over with us from the other ward and nobody else. And these people that I never met showed up for me in the most spectacular ways.

The Relief Society, within a day or two, had dropped something off at the porch and texted many different times. Um, a woman who I'd never met before showed up at my front door and said, Can I read your column? I noticed you haven't written in a couple weeks. Is everything okay? But, she lost her husband to a heart attack five years ago.

The bishop bullied LDS Family Services into getting me one particular therapist. Like, bullied. Called multiple times. And kept checking in. You know, kept calling to make sure that I had got an appointment. kept calling to just check on me. I had never met this man. Um, and my calling is relief society teacher, which is a great colleague for me.

Cause it's like once every two [00:35:00] months for an hour, arguably the best calling in the church. It's my favorite. I was this before. And then I was young in young women's for a minute. I was like, Oh, this is really hard. And then they made me really society teacher again. I'm like, yes, thank you. And I had chosen the lesson.

My first lesson to teach her this word. A couple weeks prior to my dad's passing and it was Elder Gogg's talk, Everything for thy good, everything shall happen for thy good. Which really felt like a sick joke that I had played on myself. Um, so I stood up there a month after my dad's passing and I, uh, gave, tried my best to keep it together and give this lesson.

I was even less composed than I am now, if you can believe it. And I said, you know, I just, I don't have a testimony of this. I don't have a testimony that everything happens for my good. I'm in the thick of it. And these women, many of whom are older than I am, many of whom have lived more life than I have and have seen much harder things than I have, met me with so much empathy and cried with me and shared their experiences and their, you know, their long, dark, cold nights and how they came out the other side.

And I was just. I was so thankful to have found a new group of people who were willing to sit with me. Uh, they've, they've remained like that. They've continued to check in on me and the Young Women's Presidency checks in constantly with my daughter and they've taken such good care of us and I, I'm just incredibly grateful for that community and how they've mourned with me.

Um, and truly big Christ like it that way. You said you weren't sure if the word counts. I think the word absolutely counts and I think it's something sometimes that we take for granted about our community. Um, my husband is in school and there's a girl that moved into our apartment building because her husband's also in school.

And one day she said to me, one thing that I'm really jealous of about members of your church is the community. And she started talking to me about how they are what, what, uh, a lot of Christians refer to as church homeless. Um, she's like, we're, we're church homeless. Like we're currently shopping around for a church.

And, and she just said, you know, I've always admired. the, your church in the way that no matter where you are, um, you have a community. And I think that that's something that sometimes like we do, we don't, we don't totally appreciate, um, what a blessing that is. Meg, I wanted to ask you one more thing before we get to our last question.

And I'm curious for your thoughts on this. We, we talked about how you write about culture. Those that have not read Meg's column, you, you are, despite being older than me, You are much more hip than I am. You're very like in the know, you know, you know, like what's going on, you know, the culture, you know, the what's hip and what's not.

And I am very not cool at this point. And so I'm curious what you feel like. As somebody that is an observer of culture. Yeah. What do you feel like is the value of faith for people in our day and age, and particularly in like the younger generation? You know, I, so you sent me these questions earlier this week and I went through today and I just took a couple notes for each, you know, so I didn't sound like a complete idiot.

And I got to this one, and I just kinda, I drew a blank a little bit, I, I had to really dig deep to, to figure out how I felt about it, and I, um, I, I can only speak for myself, obviously, but I think for me the answer is that I just, I'm 38, and I'm getting to this age where I'm starting to understand how much I don't know.

Like, I think I thought I was a lot smarter 10 years ago. I was much more sure that I had things figured out when I was 28 than I do now that I'm 38. And I think it's, you know, I've, by this point, taken some punches and, um, Uh, realize how hard life can be, especially this last year. And I also had the realization that for me and for my peers, it's, it's going to get harder.

I mean, it's, uh, getting older is hard and you know, there's going to be more things like losing parents and raising kids, you know, in a time where it's hard to raise kids. Like there's just increasing challenges. And I, I need that hope that [00:40:00] my faith offers me. I, I am getting much more comfortable with what I don't know and what I hope, and I'm leaning more into what I hope and I hope that this faith is true and that the way I'm living my life is It's the way I'm supposed to be living my life.

And it sounds simplistic probably, but if the last year has taught me anything, it's just that I need that hope that I'm going to see my dad again. I need that hope that my faith promises that I will see my dad again. And what's, what's been really interesting to me is I mentioned those people whom I love dearly.

Who have either stepped away from the church or never been a part of it or are somewhere in the middle. And so many of them have come to me since my dad died and shared similar hopes they've had after hard things. I don't think, I don't think this is necessarily special to our faith to have that kind of hope, but I am thankful for the particulars of it that I've learned and for the sense of peace that it has brought me through my life and especially now.

I love the, the concept of hope and I think what you just articulated captured perfectly like why the scriptures say that, that hope is an anchor of the souls of men. I think we have to have that hope and I think that there is a, a beauty in the fact that what you don't know is making, making you lean in to faith.

Does that make sense? Yeah. Um, uh, Meg, I so appreciate this conversation and I appreciate your vulnerability and your honesty and just how genuine you are. My last question for you is what does it mean to you to be all in the gospel of Jesus Christ? Um, I think it means showing up, I think it means showing up for yourself, even in times where it makes you uncomfortable or even in times where you don't want to.

And I think even more importantly, I think it means showing up for other people in very much the way people have showed up for me my whole life and especially more recently. Um, I've, I've truly seen the face of God in, um, The way others have made me feel loved, and to me, that's the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Meg, thank you so much. Thank you.

We are so grateful to Meg Walter for joining us on today's episode. Be sure to check out Meg's writing on the Deseret News. And, as always, a big thank you to Derek Campbell of Mix at 6 Studios for his help with this episode. And thank you for listening. We'll be excited to be with you again next week.