The following transcript is intended to aid in your study. However, while we try to go through the transcript, our transcripts are primarily computer-generated and often contain errors. Please forgive the transcripts’ imperfections.

===

[00:00:00] Morgan Jones Pearson: On Monday, after a very short closure, the Kirtland Temple reopened its doors for free public tours for the first time since it was purchased by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints earlier this month. The Kirtland Temple is significant for many reasons, but as we celebrate Holy Week this week, it is especially significant as we remember that these words from the living Christ Jesus, Document are originally from section 110 of the Doctrine and Covenants, which is an account of a vision received by Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery in the temple at Kirtland, Ohio, on April 3, 1863.

Joseph recorded, His eyes were as a Flame of fire, the hair of his head was white, like the pure snow. His countenance shone above the brightness of the sun, and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters. Even the voice of Jehovah saying, I am the first and the last. I am he who live. I am he who was slain.

I am your advocate with the Father. The Kirtland Temple stands as a witness of the reality of the living Christ, and that is one of the many reasons its acquisition is so significant. Elder Kyle S. McKay is an attorney by trade, having practiced law in Oregon and Utah. He was sustained as a General Authority Seventy of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints on March 31st, 2018.

He is currently the church historian and recorder and executive director of the church history department. He also serves on the scriptures committee. He and his wife, Jennifer are the parents of nine children.

This is All In, an LDS Living podcast where we ask the question, what does it really mean to be all in the gospel of Jesus Christ? I'm Morgan Pearson, and I am honored to have Elder Kyle S. McKay on the line with me today. Elder McKay, welcome.

[00:02:02] Kyle McKay: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

[00:02:05] Morgan Jones Pearson: Well, I'm going to start out, Elder McKay.

I wanted to give people a chance to get to know you a little bit, and I talked to a couple of people who know you decently well before this interview, and I found it interesting that every one of them said, well, he's a cowboy. And so I wanted to ask you, you're a cowboy at heart and you enjoy horseback riding with your sons.

Tell me a little bit about the role that that has played in your life and how it shaped who you are as a person.

[00:02:34] Kyle McKay: It's a family activity. I want to say it's part of my identity. It certainly doesn't make its way to the top and, and supplant any of the identities that President Nelson has taught us about, but it has, it has, it's not my religion.

But it has provided experiences that have augmented my religion. I, I grew up on horseback with my dad taking me in the mountains. And I should clarify that mountains and horses are not the same without the other. Uh, we love to be in the mountains, but I'd much rather be in the mountains on horseback than on foot.

And I love to be on horses, but I'd much rather be on. A horse in the mountains than in an arena. So we've made it a family experience and it has each of our children has owned a horse and trained it and brought it up. And there are people who have written books about managing people based on training horses.

The 1 percent improvement that you heard even in a conference talk, I think it was Elder Dunn who gave it. Chris Cox, who's a famous horse trainer, uses that principle and that's where I first heard it. So it's been, it's been a great way to learn life lessons. My dad, when he took us in the mountains, there would be lesson after lesson, after lesson, he's very good at pulling out a two sentence sermon ad and giving it based on the formation of a rock or the angle of a tree or erosion or the sky or the clouds.

And, and, uh, I learned a lot. From him and, uh, I'm going one on one with God in the mountains as well. So yes, it's a, it's a treasured activity. I know other families and other people have different activities that are just as meaningful, and this happens to be ours.

[00:04:23] Morgan Jones Pearson: I love that. Well, my understanding is that when you were young, your family lived in Bountiful Utah.

And at the end of the summer, you had spent in the mountains or in a rural area. I'm not totally sure. You decided that you didn't really want to go back to Bountiful and somehow there was an arrangement made with Elder Marlon K. Jensen, who also was as a former church historian. You two have that in common now.

I was so curious when I read this story about how that came to be, what it was like for you. I think a lot of Elder Jensen. So how did that come to be and what did you learn in that time living with the Jensens from? Elder Marlon K. Jetson.

[00:05:09] Kyle McKay: Thank you. It's a, it's a treasured experience in my life that gets bigger the older I get.

I don't know why Marlon and Kathy invited me into their home, but here's, here's how it happened and came to be. My dad was born and raised in Huntsville, Utah, and my ancestors settled that valley. My great grandmother, Williamina, was the first white woman to settle in that valley. And I've always, my heart has always been in Huntsville, Utah, although my parents raised their children in Bountiful.

We spent weekends and summers up there. And at the end of the summer of 1974, where my mother had rented The Valley House, which is an old hotel up in Huntsville. And it's still a bed and breakfast up there now. Uh, I didn't want to come home. You're right. I just did not, I'm not coming home. I'm not going back to Bountiful.

Well, there wasn't a place for me to stay. And I think my parents were sympathetic. So they, they, uh, arranged something. I started school in Bountiful, but then they spoke with Marlon and I've been working on their farm since I was 11 or 12 years old and Marlon and Kathy moved into their new home in November of 74.

And six weeks later, I moved in with them and I'll always be grateful and even a little emotional as I consider what they went through deciding to invite me. They had 4 young children. She just had a baby. They had a student living with them. And, of course, the answer was no, when my parents floated the idea, but they made it a matter of fasting and prayer and then called up my parents and said, send him up.

And so I lived with them for. Uh, a good chunk of my 9th grade year graduated from junior high at Valley Junior High there in Huntsville and was registered to go to high school at Weaver, but then came back down to battlefield and live with my family. Marlon Jensen is. Outside my parents has had a greater influence on me than I think anyone, any adult in my life.

He's just, I don't know a person like him. He is so genuine and, and what you see outside of his home. Or behind the pulpit or in interactions with others is precisely the way he is in his home. I've just never seen that a difference that sometimes we struggle to be the same in and out, but it was a profound experience for me.

I milk cows with them and I got to sleep in until. Uh, 515 on school, on school days, uh, Marlon milked and then on weekends, I would milk once with his brother and once with him, he was a bishop at the time, very busy. But I'll forever be grateful to them.

[00:08:13] Morgan Jones Pearson: Love that the two of you now have this experience of being called as as church historians And I find it interesting elder mckay that you are an attorney But you were called to this historian Calling were you surprised by that call? Jenny reader actually told me that there have been a number of attorneys in that calling So this is not the first time that's happened But were you surprised by that call and did you have a previous interest in history?

[00:08:43] Kyle McKay: So you're right about the, the string of attorneys, there was a time, about a 16 year period when we did not have a formal church historian in 2005 Elder Jensen, Marlin Jensen was sustained as the new church historian and the, and the department, if you will, was kind of reconstituted, uh, President Hinckley did that.

And Elder Jensen was an attorney and following him, Steve Snow and the Grand Curtis. And then I am the, was that fourth? And now I'm the fourth attorney in a row. And I don't think that's by design. I really do think it's by coincidence. Uh, I was not surprised by the call to be. Church historian, but I was initially surprised by the assignment to be in the church history department.

So after my first year as a general authority, where there's kind of a rotation, uh, an orientation, if you will, uh, in the assignment meeting, I learned that I was assigned to be the assistant executive director in the church history department. And the way our department works, there's two. General authorities, one is the church historian and the executive director, and the other is the assistant executive director.

I was assigned. To be the assistant executive director with LeGrand Curtis as the historian and executive director in that instant, when I discovered and saw my picture up on the screen as the assistant executive director, I had the thought that you could, you could be in that department or in that role for the, your entire time as a general authority.

So that moment was more of a surprise than actually becoming the church historian after three years, it seemed like a natural thing to do. So the, the actual call itself was not a huge surprise. It made sense because of the three years I'd had in the church history department. But the initial assignment to the department did take me off guard a little bit.

I've, I've never had a. A focus or a passion for history. I've been curious about it, but this calling has certainly piqued my interest and, uh, I'm scrambling. And in fact, one of the things I try to do is, is discipline myself so that I don't panic at what I don't know. Fortunately, I'm surrounded with brilliant people who have lots of answers and I lean on them a lot.

[00:11:20] Morgan Jones Pearson: As a follow up to that, Elder McKay, I'm curious. You said you try to discipline yourself to not panic about what you don't know. What does that look like?

[00:11:31] Kyle McKay: So there's so much about church history that we have such a rich history, such an inspiring history. And I want to know everything about everything. So, and I just don't, but depending on which office I'm sitting in, in the moment, I can ask the person in that office, uh, any question.

And I usually get answers. And I've also begun to. To hold what we call the school of the elders who have patterned after what Joseph established in Kirtland and in independence. I, we invite scholars in mostly from our department, but also from outside to teach us about topics and segments of church history and personalities.

And, uh, that's been very, very helpful, but on any given day, I will wish that I knew more about any given subject. I love reading, particularly the biographies of, of the great people of the Restoration. I'm right now, I'm reading a biography of George Q. Cannon, but. I'd love to know them all much better.

[00:12:41] Morgan Jones Pearson: I love the idea of bringing in people that do know and seeking to learn from them.

I loved in an interview that you did recently, you talked about the privilege that it is to work alongside church historians who have devoted their careers to this work. I wondered what have you learned from them and their dedication to Kind of uncovering the church's history and, and helping all of us better understand our heritage.

[00:13:13] Kyle McKay: I've learned a few things and it's been impressive. These are, most of them are PhDs. Uh, they, they've just studied this for a long time, and many of them have an emphasis on church history or some aspect of church history for their doctoral dissertation. And it's been wonderful to learn content and subject matter from them, but perhaps the thing that has been most meaningful for me is that they are devoted scholars.

They really are true to their profession. And if it's not accurate, if we can't document it. Then we won't say it or we'll say it in a qualified manner saying here's how we think it is, but we can't say for sure. So they're very cautious and very true to their profession, but they are also deeply rooted in and true to their faith.

And that is a very impressive combination. To have somebody who can talk about any sensitive topic of church history and do so in a manner that's candid, but faith promoting, and at the end of the discussion, there's, there's a witness in the room. That's a beautiful experience, and they've given that to me, and, uh, I thank them for it.

I should also mention that that in addition to everything that we are studying and going back to uncover our history and try to repiece it because some of it is fragmented. The most important thing we do, I believe, in our department is to continue to obey the commandment. There shall be a record kept among you.

Uh, that was given on the first day that the church was organized. And, uh, the very first line of the first revelation on the day the church was organized was behold, there shall be a record kept among you at that time. There was no church history. There wasn't anything to go research and write about and preserve.

Uh, if there was, it was limited, but the commandment is, look, I'm going to do some things here with you. Keep track of it, write it down. We're about to make history. And so make sure you preserve it. And that, that mandate continues today. And this office is to keep a regular history of the church. And so what is happening today is, is in its own right.

As historic as anything that has happened since 1820 or 1830.

[00:15:45] Morgan Jones Pearson: I love that. It reminds me of president Nelson's expect miracles and also the idea of the ongoing restoration. And so that makes complete sense to me. Uh, Elder McKay, I know that there are some who find aspects of church history troublesome.

It's interesting. I, I mentioned Jenny Reeder earlier, and she has been a dear friend of mine for several years now. And there have been a few times where people have come to me with some concerns and, and I'll say, Jenny, I need, I need your help in better understanding this. I'm sure you've learned a ton about church history in this.

Capacity, and I wonder how you approach the tougher to understand parts of church history and what might be your advice to others in, in approaching those tougher aspects?

[00:16:34] Kyle McKay: Thank you for the question. Let me, let me start the response by saying, there are many things about my life and probably I'm, I'm certain your life that people would find troubling if they're using.

Your life or my life as a gauge for the truthfulness of this church. That's, that's the nature of humanity. We are all human and we make errors. There's a beautiful thing that I learned from one of our scholars here, Keith Erickson. We did a podcast a while back, and in response to a question similar to this, uh, he, he made the observation that in the New Testament.

There are lots of things going on that just aren't right. It's, they're off and, and he's talking about things among the apostles, among the church leaders of the day. The apostles don't get along. Some of them are vying for position or recognition. One of them cuts off ears, I guess, or at least he did once and he denied Christ and all sorts of things going on that just aren't right.

But we don't get sidetracked by that, because right there in the center of the New Testament is Jesus Christ. And everything that's happening on the periphery is just that, peripheral. Jesus Christ is the center, and we look to Him, and we see Him in the New Testament, especially the Gospels. And what happens on the periphery just doesn't matter, even though it's off.

Well, in church history, and even in contemporary times, there can be a tendency to take Christ out of the center and make somebody else the center of our focus. And when you do that, then mistakes and things that are off are going to take on undue significance. So the key is keep Christ in the center.

And everything that goes on outside of him or around him, including the actions and the experiences of his chosen leaders and in his church won't make a difference. It won't knock you off course because Jesus Christ is in the center and you're focused on him. I found that to be true and I think in his own way, the Lord said that when he was talking to Oliver in the sixth section of the Doctrine and Covenants, he's talking to Oliver about Joseph.

So he says to Oliver Cowdery, stand by my servant, Joseph, faithfully in all things, uh, in all, in all difficult circumstances, I'm paraphrasing here that he may be for the word's sake. He said admonish him in his faults and also receive admonition of him. So to me, that's the Lord and Oliver both acknowledging, Hey, the guy we're working with isn't perfect.

He's going to make mistakes, but it's important that you stand by him, Oliver. In whatsoever difficult circumstances, he may be for the word's sake, he will be in difficult circumstances for the word's sake, but you stand by him for the word's sake. And if we do that, I think we'll be all right. I've made the comment before it goes without saying that Joseph Smith was human and made mistakes. Well, if it goes without saying, why do we keep saying it? And we somehow feel compelled to say it or acknowledge it. And I guess that's all right, but this is God's church and no unhallowed hand and no well meaning hallowed hand is going to knock it off course.

[00:20:27] Morgan Jones Pearson: I think that's fantastic advice, and I love your perspective on that.

Elder McKay, is there any aspect of or account in church history that is maybe not as well known that you have learned and that has had particular significance to you in strengthening you in your life?

[00:20:47] Kyle McKay: Uh, there are several and maybe they were just not well known to me. Maybe others knew them, but I, I have absolutely fallen in love with Jane Elizabeth Manning and, and have such respect for her.

Uh, I, I mentioned her in a talk that I gave at BYU Idaho, but here's a woman, a black woman who joins the church with a good number of her family in Connecticut and is journeying to Nauvoo and is denied passage because of her color. And so she walks on what eventually became bloodied feet in bitter cold weather, makes it to Nauvoo, tells us Joseph and Emma welcome her into their home.

You're among friends now. Joseph marvels at her faith, saying to a friend, what do you think of that? Isn't that faith? And then she, she lives with the saints in Nauvoo. She mourns the death of Joseph and Hiram. She comes to the Salt Lake Valley early on. In 46 or 47 is a beloved, uh, saint and minister here, but because of her color and the, the restrictions in place at the time was denied, uh, the highest blessings of the temple.

And, uh, she loved the temple. She contributed to the construction of the Salt Lake temple. And in, in, uh, 18, I forget the exact year. I think it was 1884. She writes a letter to the president of the church who at the time was John Taylor, and these words just ring with me and stay with me. And she says, God promised Abraham.

That in his seed, all the nations of the earth should be blessed. And as this is the fullness of all dispensations, is there no blessing for me? Those words just tear at my heart. Uh, the answer of course, then, and now is yes, Jade, there is a blessing for you. The highest blessing. Is reserved for you. There is no blessing that will be denied you.

But at the time, the, the ordinances of the temple were not available to her. And yet she died with a firm testimony in her heart and on her lips and, and I aspire to her faith and love her story. I also love a principle that is learned in church history. And it's repeated and it's repeated in your life and mine.

And it's something that is, is a forefront on my mind right now because of the recent acquisition, but it is this principle that God will speak to you as you are in his scriptures. If you want revelation, get yourself in the revelations, many of the revelations that we have. In the Doctrine and Covenants are a result of Joseph being in the Bible as part of his translation of the Bible.

So, the Joseph Smith Translation gives us translation and clarity of the Bible, but it also gives us several, many sections of the Doctrine and Covenants where they will pause and say, Whoa, what meaneth this? Maybe the most noteworthy is the 76th section, the vision, the three degrees of glory that they pause while they're reading.

Translating the Bible and, uh, and they ask a question regarding John chapter 5 verse 29. You can see this in living color in section 138 with Joseph F. Smith. He's pondering on broad topic, the atonement, and then the spirit just guides him into first Peter chapter three, and then, then this revelation bursts upon him.

It's a beautiful principle that is, is alive and well and available in all of our lives.

[00:24:49] Morgan Jones Pearson: Thank you so much for sharing both of those. I love Jane Manning James. I think that she is remarkable. And so I love that that was the, that was the first example that came to your mind.

[00:25:02] Kyle McKay: My predecessor, LeGrand Curtis is a direct descendant of Brigham Young.

So he had a statue of Brigham sitting on a pedestal there in the office and I inherited his office. And, and I love Brigham and President Nelson, or President Hinckley loved Brigham Young, such a practical, both practical prophets, but, um, I, I'm there recently at the dedication of some statues of, and this is the place monument, there's a statue of, of Jane.

And I've asked the sculptors to make a miniature, like, I don't know, 18 inches or so. And she's, she's going to be in my office.

[00:25:43] Morgan Jones Pearson: That's so cool. That's awesome. Let me shift now, Elder McKay, to this recent acquisition that I feel like is so significant. This is something that church members have waited a long time for.

I remember years ago when I was at the Deseret News, we would, every conference, it was like, is this going to be the one where they get the Kirtland Temple? You said that it was determined. I think that we all expected. That when the Kirtland Temple was acquired by the church, that it would be made a functioning temple.

And you said it was determined that the Kirtland Temple will be more effective as a historic site than it would be as a temple. Can you tell me a little bit more about why that is?

[00:26:29] Kyle McKay: Yes, first of all, I don't make those decisions. I can make recommendations and if I'm asked, that would be my recommendation.

This was never a functioning temple in the way we view them now. We didn't perform the ordinances in that temple. That we do in all of our current operating temples. Uh, this was, it's been described as a restoration temple. Uh, there are certain things that belong in the house of the Lord. And some of those things, uh, were not found on the earth at the time.

So we need a temple so that they can get here. So that temple was constructed and it's, it's a beautiful outlay. It's a humble temple. But to that temple comes Christ himself, followed by these three messengers who restore keys and dispensations and, uh, things necessary in order to establish the kingdom of God on earth.

So with the significance of the restoration in mind, uh, we're going to keep this as an historic site. And that decision was made by president Nelson in the first presidency. And I'm delighted. That it was, I honestly don't know how it would be configured or whether it could be configured into an operating temple.

It, it, it was made to be just the way it is. And I'm delighted that it will stay that way. We want to keep it old. We want to keep it authentic. We want to, we want it to be safe. Uh, but, but we want that old temple to be with us and to remind us of what happened.

[00:28:12] Morgan Jones Pearson: For sure. Elder McKay, you said that you didn't have what we traditionally consider to be pioneer ancestors, but that the Kirtland temple is an important part of all of our heritage as members of the church.

I especially appreciated this because I don't have what Many considered to be pioneer ancestors. So why is it that this acquisition that the Kirtland temple in particular is so important to our heritage as members of the church?

[00:28:45] Kyle McKay: It's what happened inside the temple that is so important and, and the Lord needed a temple to do that or to do what he did there.

And so the keys that were restored there, the keys of the gathering of Israel, neither you nor I, uh, is in this church unless those keys are restored and the missionary work goes forward. And so in 1850, and then in 1860, where, when my McKay ancestors were converted in the Highlands of Scotland, that doesn't happen without the turning of a key and the opening of the gospel, or the kingdom of God in that nation, and your ancestors, the first to come into the, to the church, that doesn't happen without those keys.

And then the binding of generations, and especially the binding of husband to wife. Within the same generation that doesn't happen either without the keys that were restored by Elijah. And then there's this beautiful dispensation of the gospel of Abraham. Uh, and no keys are mentioned, just the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham that Elias brings.

And in our church, we sometimes limit that word dispensation to simply meaning a time period, uh, that a prophet stands at the head of. Joseph Smith stands at the head of this dispensation, this time period. But the word means more. And in this context, uh, it, it doesn't have its full meaning without the other two definitions.

One is a special permission or privilege. And which is certainly a part of the dispensation, the privilege of the gospel of Abraham, special privileges were extended to him and anyone who's going to be part of God's. If you're Christ, you are Abraham seed, Paul said, and so these privileges in the aggregate are all that the father half.

That's pretty special. That is a dispensation. The other meaning of that word dispensation is. Uh, a method or order by which God carries forth his purposes among his people. And certainly that is part of the Abrahamic gospel and Abrahamic covenant. So that was restored and without it, we don't have this church and kingdom or the lofty, uh, blessings that we talk about in our church.

[00:31:20] Morgan Jones Pearson: Absolutely. Well, and I, I love the temple Elder McKay. I know that we are just so blessed to have. Temples on the earth today at the time that the Kirtland temple was built. There had been a period of time without temples on the earth what they knew of the temple was They they likely had read about solomon's temple and and when the book of mormon was translated They learned of nephi's temple and you talked with church news about a comparison between what they built in Kirtland and And Solomon's temple or Nephi's temple.

And I found that super fascinating. Do you mind sharing just a little bit about that?

[00:32:03] Kyle McKay: Sure. I, I am moved by what Solomon and his people were able to do. And even before Solomon, David gathered up contributions to create this temple. He was never able to build it. Although the commandment to build it came prior to Solomon, David gathered up the donations and was quite pleased with it.

He was delighted at this free will offering that his people had made in order to build the temple. And then that was turned over to Solomon and he hired others to help build this temple that My goodness, the description of it in, in first Kings in from about chapters five or six through the dedication in chapter eight is just exquisite.

I don't know that there's very much of the interior of that temple that is not overlaid with gold. And there's fine wood, fur, and cedar and all sorts of, of ornate construction. And it really does sound just marvelous. Nephi says that he built a temple, uh, after the manner of Solomon's temple, but it wasn't as nice.

I mean, he, he admitted that because they didn't have quite what Solomon had. I find that interesting because in the previous verse, Nephi talks about what they did have. And they had all manner of wood, they had all manner of ore and gold and silver and copper and just all sorts of things. And certainly that must have been included in their temple.

And although it did not rise to the level of Solomon's temple, it was, in Nephi's words, exceedingly fine. And then there is the Kirtland Temple. This humble little temple that we just did not have money to build. We did not have the resources, but we gave what we had just like the people under David's rule, where they gave this free will offering.

We gave what we had. We did not have as much from which to give. As David's people did, but we gave what we had, and in the end it was, as David finally noted, simply giving back to the Lord what he had already given to us. We give thee but thine own, and it was humble. We didn't, we couldn't afford to build a frame.

Uh, they had talked about maybe a log structure and Joseph recoiled at that and said, we're going to do better than that. And so it was, it was built of stone in order to make it look a little finer in appearance. They covered the stone, the exterior with with plaster or stucco and into that stucco when they're broken China.

Uh, and it's not, most of it was not China that they donated so that it could be broken and included in the stucco or the Adobe, it was already broken. Uh, that's, this is all we've got are broken stuff. So let's put it in there and it'll. It'll help give a little bit of a shine or a sheen to the exterior.

But, and, and then you go look at those walls now, and there's, there is a little, just a tiny bit of unevenness that you can still detect, uh, both interior and exterior, but it was what they could do. It was, it might have been a greater sacrifice for them. It probably was than it was for the people in King Solomon's time.

And the interesting thing is that the Lord appeared in both places. He appeared to accept Solomon's temple. He appeared to accept the Kirtland temple. That is enough. All I wanted was what you have. And so thanks for giving it and I accept it and I will come here and I'll manifest myself to my people here.

And they'll hear my voice here. And then of course, what was restored there is, is foundational for the restoration.

[00:36:19] Morgan Jones Pearson: I love the way that you put that, that the important thing was that the Lord accepted it. I think there's great significance in that for all of us. Elder McKay, how were women involved in the construction of the Kirtland temple?

[00:36:36] Kyle McKay: In much the same way, they were involved in the construction of the Nauvoo temple. This was, of course, the first temple. Uh, the men were in the quarry, uh, digging out and chiseling the stones and carrying them to the temple and placing them. The sisters, under the leadership of Emma, made stockings and jackets and, I assume, shirts as well and clothing to support the brethren.

They, the, the comment The observation was made that they were every bit as engaged and busy as the men. And then once, once it was finished, at least they had the shell, then the women came into the interior and let out. They made the carpets, they made the curtains. And Joseph observed that in this, as in all things, and again, I'm paraphrasing, that the sisters have let out.

And we, we hear echoes of that even now when the, uh, the idea of ministering was introduced where we retired home teaching and visiting teaching and ministering was introduced, uh, our senior leaders weren't even subtle about saying that all we're doing is trying to do what the sisters have caught the vision of all along.

And trying to minister as they ministered. I might also mention that this, this contribution that the sisters made in Kirtland eventually led to the same contribution in Nauvoo, which was the foundational act for the beginning of Relief Society. And so we point to Sarah Granger Kimball, who was A teenager in Kirtland and then in Nauvoo, she starts this, this practice of let's make shirts.

Let's help them with, with whatever clothing we can so that we can, we can keep the workers on site and we don't lose any because they literally lose a shirt. Uh, so they start that shirt making and clothing making and providing those types of things. And that was the beginning of Relief Society in Nauvoo.

Which was eventually organized in the red brick store, but it was initially talked about and, and had its beginnings in Sarah Granger's Kimball and Sarah Granger Kimball's own that grew out of this act of shirt making and clothing providing for the Nauvoo temple, which is simply replicating the same thing that happened in curtain.

And so I, I think there's a beautiful tie to the origins of. Relief Society and what the sisters did in Kirtland.

[00:39:26] Morgan Jones Pearson: Well, that's really interesting. I had never heard that story. While we're on the topic of the Relief Society, the Red Brick Store was also part of this acquisition and, uh, that is significant because the Relief Society, as you mentioned, was organized there.

But I found it interesting that what the church purchased is actually just a rebuild of the Red Brick Store. Why was it important for the church to acquire something that's simply a replica?

[00:39:54] Kyle McKay: So good question. And, and maybe it's best answered by casting your mind upon a vision of the Nauvoo temple.

That is in Nauvoo right now. Uh, it is a replica and yet it means so much because it is a temple, but also because it is a replica of the Nauvoo temple in the same way, what happened in the red brick store is so significant that the replica The rebuilding of that store. It takes on special meaning. We're so grateful, uh, to community of Christ for what they did.

They built it on the original foundation and did a wonderful job. And, uh, our, our historians, I'm, I'm not a trained historian, but our historians and archivists and conservators are, uh, they marvel and are, are very. A complimentary of what Community of Christ did in that reconstruction and how they did it.

Uh, the original building fell into disrepair and was destroyed, I think, or cleared in about 1890. And then in 1980 is when Community of Christ rebuilt it. But you're right. What happened in the upper room of that little store is very significant to us, including the foundation of the Relief Society.

[00:41:23] Morgan Jones Pearson: Speaking of the Community of Christ, my understanding, Elder McKay, is that the church didn't always a great relationship with the Community of Christ Church. But then over time, this tremendous friendship has been established and a mutual respect. And that's kind of what led to this acquisition. I wondered, how have you been inspired by the relationship that the church has worked to develop and that I'm sure the Community of Christ has worked to develop with us as Latter day Saints?

[00:41:56] Kyle McKay: Thank you. It has been inspiring to watch it. I appreciate it. I was not, uh, involved intellectually at the time when there might have been frosty relationships. Certainly it kind of became that way over the years because of the difference in religions and religious views. There was always a cordial relationship, though, between people.

And I, I just think of, first of all, I think of Joseph and Hiram and then the religions kind of split down those lines with Hyrum's posterity coming to Salt Lake City and being part of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints and Joseph's posterity eventually becoming part of the reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints, now Community of Christ.

But Hyrum and Joseph were as tight as any two people, any two brothers could be. Their children, Joseph the third from Joseph Smith, Jr. And Joseph F. Smith from Hyrum were also cordial and had, uh, had a strong familial bond. So those relationships have lasted over the years, but the religious differences have, uh, on some level created or did.

To create a frosty relationship that began to thaw, we believe, because of our shared heritage, including, and maybe especially, the Kirtland Temple and the sites in Nauvoo. We both cherish those and hold them dear. And so it was through, uh, these historic sites and historic artifacts that, that there began to be a thaw and a mutual interest and a mutual study and a mutual preservation, uh, for years when they owned these.

They would invite us to help in preservation efforts. For example, we, we assisted in the preservation of the printer's manuscript long before we were able to purchase it. So these types of things have gone on for a long time. Our historian scholars have met together and have enjoyed sharing information.

And that has helped the thaw. Having said that, this is a, this is a difficult time. And I want to, I want to highlight. How this relationship is now, um, because at the end of the day, it's, it's the people that caused the thaw, um, the transfer of these properties and artifacts, um, came as a surprise to many of the, of community of most of them, and it is deeply saddening to them.

I'm learning this and trying to. Trying to give space, uh, it was just deeply saddening and some of them have expressed frustration and even anger. And so I was in Kirtland last week with Bishop Waddell and saw a beautiful scene. I saw a grieving local pastor of Community of Christ who had just lost something dear to her.

And I saw her with one of our senior sister missionaries, and they already share a love for each other. And here is our sister missionary. Who has great cause to rejoice and is rejoicing because of this acquisition that we've, as you say, long for, for years. And yet she has such a profound love and respect for her friend and community of Christ.

I watched them embrace and I watched them both weep together and mourn together. So there's a, there's a beautiful lesson in that. Even as institutionally, uh, there are some differences, and I think this sweet woman from Community of Christ, by her own words, struggles with some of the things that happen institutionally.

She is there embracing and sharing love with. Our member, our sister missionary, and it was, it was a beautiful sight and a beautiful example of mourning with those who mourn, even if you're in the middle of something that gives you great cause to rejoice.

[00:46:27] Morgan Jones Pearson: Absolutely. That's beautiful. Elder McKay, I'm conscious of time.

So I just have two last questions for you. One is how has being involved in this experience strengthened your testimony of the Lord's concern and awareness of his church today?

[00:46:48] Kyle McKay: So it's been wonderful to have these documents and artifacts and properties transferred to us. But I might expand your question just a little bit to, um, include not just his church, but his children, because I've become so acutely aware of his love for all of his children. And in this case, not just those within our church, but also within the church.

Community of Christ. And I, I have felt his love and concern and compassion and, and gratitude for community of Christ. And I have also felt his, his stirring love for, uh, the members of this church and his plans is his vision for what might happen from here on out to, to be able to unleash the power. Of the story of the dedication and the restoration that happened on April 3rd, 1836.

And that has all been, uh, wonderful to see and envision. He said in back to back verses in the book of Mormon, I'm able to do my own work and he's doing it, but this is take a child to work day. And it is a glorious privilege to be his child and go to work with him. And watch him do it. It is a glorious thing.

[00:48:08] Morgan Jones Pearson: Indeed. I can only imagine the things that you have experienced and felt as you have been able to be, be a part of this. And I appreciate you sharing just a glimpse into that with us today and with me. So thank you so much for taking the time. My last question for you is what does it mean to you to be all in the gospel of Jesus Christ?

[00:48:35] Kyle McKay: I'm going to borrow Uh, an experience that was related in a, in an address given by Thomas Griffith. There was an Italian immigrant who came to America, was filling out papers somewhere and on, on the form it said, it asked him to list his occupation. And he wrote, I am a servant of God. I mend shoes. To me that describes, that captures what it means to be all in.

No matter what we do, no matter where we go, we are always a servant of God, a child of God, a child of the covenant, a disciple of Jesus Christ. And then I think of examples of people who are all in, think of, think of the saints who built the Kirtland temple. They were all in, uh, think of the saints. I have a strong tie to the Martin and Willie companies.

They were all in, they gave their all, even their lives. Joseph Smith, the prophet. Was all in and Hiram was right there with him all in to be all in for me means that you are immersed. Uh, you have been baptized by fire. You've been, you have been immersed in the spirit. And you don't need to know all things, but it is important to know with certainty the important things.

And that happens to all of us the way it happened to Peter, through the, the gentle nudgings, the quiet assurances of the spirit, speaking to your mind and to your heart. And that will, that will make you all in and that will keep you. All in.

[00:50:23] Morgan Jones Pearson: Elder McKay, this has been so, so enjoyable for me. I feel like I could listen to you talk all day.

So thank you so much for, for spending some time with me.

[00:50:33] Kyle McKay: Morgan. It has been my privilege. I'm just thrilled with what you do. And, and when I say what you do, I mean, Primarily your beautiful mothering of this beautiful family that I have met, and I congratulate you and wish you all the best. And I'm grateful to be a fellow servant with you.

[00:50:55] Morgan Jones Pearson: Thank you so much. A huge thank you to Elder Kyle S. McKay for joining us on this week's episode. As always, we're grateful to Derek Campbell of Mix at Six Studios for his help. with this episode and we're grateful to you for listening. We hope you have a wonderful Easter and we look forward to being with you again next week.