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[00:00:00] Morgan Jones Pearson: There is perhaps no better way to set up this interview than by reading the description of Dr. Benjamin Bickman's book, Why We Get Sick. We are sick. Around the world, we struggle with diseases that were once considered rare. Cancer, heart disease, Alzheimer's disease, and diabetes affect millions each year.

Many people are also struggling with hypertension, weight gain, fatty liver, dementia, low testosterone, menstrual irregularities, infertility, and more. We treat the symptoms, not realizing that all of these diseases and disorders have something in common. Each of them is caused or made worse by a condition known as insulin resistance.

And you might have it. Odds are you do. Over half of all adults in the United States Their insulin resistant with most other countries, either worse or not far behind. Dr. Benjamin Bickman earned his PhD in bioenergetics and was a postdoctoral fellow with the Duke National University of Singapore studying metabolic disorders.

Currently, his professional focus as a scientist and professor at Brigham Young University is to better understand the origins and consequences of metabolic disorders including obesity and diabetes, with a particular emphasis on the role of insulin. He frequently publishes his research in peer reviewed journals and presents at International Science and Public Meetings.

This is All In, an LDS Living podcast where we ask the question, what does it really mean to be all in the gospel of Jesus Christ? I'm Morgan Pearson, and I am so honored to have Dr. Benjamin Bickman on the line with me today. You've told me to call you Ben, so I will follow your, your counsel. Uh, welcome.

[00:01:54] Benjamin Bikman: Oh, thank you. My pleasure to be here. Thank you.

[00:01:57] Morgan Jones Pearson: Well, this is a treat for me. I told, I told Ben before we ever started this interview that I've discovered in, in preparing for this interview that he has many fans. And so hopefully we can introduce you to a whole new audience and you'll have even more fans after this interview.

But I wondered if you could start for us by providing listeners with a little bit of background on. Okay. on what insulin resistance is and how you began studying and researching it.

[00:02:28] Benjamin Bikman: Right. Yeah. My interest in insulin resistance began before I knew what insulin resistance was. Uh, and so that's an odd way to start a journey, but it nevertheless put me on the path.

When I was a master's student at BYU, um, many years ago, I stumbled across a paper that had just been published that identified. This phenomenon in people with weight gain, what they found was that as people gained weight, which is to say that another way as their fat tissue got bigger, they found that they had greater number of these inflammatory markers or these inflammatory proteins in their body.

So, in other words, inflammation was going up as weight gain was going up and that this inflammation was thought to be contributing to this to type 2 diabetes. And then in BET, and then as I would find out later, that to me was an absolute revelation, um, that that really singularly changed the trajectory of my, of my career.

Prior to that, I had every intention of pursuing an academic career that focused on muscle and muscle growth and exercise. But with that manuscript kind of falling into my lab, I really shifted and wanted to better understand. The consequences of fat growth. Uh, so rather than studying how muscle grows, I wanted to know what happens when fat cells grow and that in between those two things, you know, I started to align a series of events out in my mind.

This paradigm started to form where the fat cell grows. That starts to contribute to inflammation directly, and then before it ever gets to diabetes, there was type 2 diabetes, there was this intermediate step, which was insulin resistance, which is just that the the hormone and to define insulin resistance is worth the 30 seconds.

It'll take me. Absolutely. Insulin resistance is really a two part phenomenon. It's like a coin. And every coin has two sides. Part of insulin resistance, this problem we call insulin resistance is what the name suggests, which is that the hormone insulin isn't working very well. Now, emphasis on the fact that it's not working well at some cells of the body.

Other cells of the body are working perfectly fine and responding to insulin as well as they ever did. And that becomes a problem if we flip the coin over and we look at the other aspect of insulin resistance, namely that within the body, blood insulin levels are getting ever higher. They're going up more and more and more.

And that's both cause and consequence of insulin resistance, but it is inseparably connected. If you are thinking about insulin resistance, you're thinking of two things. Insulin isn't working as well as it used to. And blood insulin levels are higher than they should be. And it's the combination of these two parts that really explains how insulin resistance is so fundamental to virtually all of the plagues of prosperity or these diseases of civilization.

Diseases that were once unheard of things like heart disease and diabetes and Alzheimer's disease. All of these have a metabolic foundation and that foundation that they all have in common is insulin resistance. And that really is, in a nutshell, why I've devoted my career to it, not only because of its relevance in chronic disease, but also its prevalence where this is the singular, most common health disorder worldwide.

And I've. That's why I've been invited to give talks on the topic literally around the world. Many times I've been fortunate enough to bring my family with me, but from the Middle East through Asia, through Southeast Asia, these are, uh, insulin resistance is really starting to just roll over the earth.

[00:06:25] Morgan Jones Pearson: You have referred Ben to your efforts to share this information. You've just talked about how you've shared it all around the world. You've referred to it as a crusade. Why does this matter so much to you, and why should it matter to anyone listening?

[00:06:44] Benjamin Bikman: Yeah, it should matter to people listening because it, I'm attempting to give them an insight into their own health that they've perhaps never had before.

For example, As one learns about insulin resistance, they learn, like I've just alluded to, that insulin resistance may be contributing to several of their own disorders. So, perhaps you have someone who opens their medicine cabinet every morning and takes a medication for their blood pressure. They take a medication for their infertility.

Whether it's a man or a woman, the most common causes of infertility are both related to disorders of insulin resistance. And maybe they take a medication for their migraine headaches. And because there's three different pill bottles for each of their three problems that they're suffering at the moment, they think that these three problems have nothing in common.

In reality, as I've mentioned, they all have One common problem, which is insulin resistance. And so my hope for the individual is that as you learn about this, they are able to singularly focus their efforts that rather than looking at their health problems as totally unrelated to each other, and thus why even try to fix them all, there's really one problem you can fix rather namely insulin resistance.

So rather than trimming the branches, of a tree that continues to provide sick fruit, you just cut the tree down. And that is really what happens when you address insulin resistance. And so that's my hope for the individual. My, my personal crusade really, it sort of, there's a long version to this, but when I, the short, the shorter version is that after I got tenure at BYU, a school that I have loved my whole life, I realized that I had really achieved my, My goal that I had, you know, when you get into academia, it's such a long road.

And at the end of that road is get tenure. It is the last hurdle. And once you've done that you've arrived, if you will. And, and so it was at that point about six or seven years ago for me now, where I. I had a kind of a very reflective moment where I thought, all right, I've, I've realized this professional success that I've long wanted and sought after it.

Now what? And, and it really was a series of questions that I went through in my mind, which was, it started with asking myself whether my knowledge. on this topic was valuable to people. And because, you know, not all scientists, certainly not all academics have the good fortune of studying something that has an interest outside the halls of academia.

One of the sad realities of academia, as much as academics don't want to admit it, is that much of what they do is meaningless. And that sounds a little mean, um, but in our more honest moments. Any academic has to admit that what they actually study and are an expert in doesn't really have a direct benefit on humans.

Me, studying fat cells and knowing why fat cells grow and shrink and the dangers of when they grow too much, um, I believed that I was fortunate enough to have a knowledge set that was valuable. And then the next question was, well, what's the best way to share it? And, and I had to admit that the best way to share that knowledge was neither in a classroom with a handful of students, nor was it through peer reviewed science manuscripts that we publish in science journals, because the average person would never read them.

And so my crusade really became. Expanding my classroom and going beyond the hallways and the walls of BYU, despite my affection for this place and really taking these ideas out into the world and just embracing the challenge of having not only a much bigger classroom, but also a much more diverse student body, but all to convey information on a topic.

That I really have a strong conviction on matters. More people need to understand what this problem is, where it comes from, why it matters and what to do about it. And that really is. In the most succinct way, my crusade.

[00:10:53] Morgan Jones Pearson: Well, the thing I think is so compelling about what you teach is that it is a belief that making small changes to one's lifestyle has the ability to heal.

Many things going on with the body and as the grandchild of grandparents who I think their generation was so dependent on medicine, and I've watched that take a toll that I, I want so badly for my lifestyle to be such that. When I am a grandparent, I'm much healthier. And so I, I love the way that you talk so much about lifestyle and, and its effect on health.

I listened to an interview, Ben, where you talked about how Joseph Smith taught that we teach correct, correct principles and they govern themselves. It's a quote that we've all heard many times. And you then said this, The tragedy in our world at the moment is we don't teach correct principles and all the more reason why I'm sympathetic to someone who's struggling with their weight because I look at them and think of course you're struggling because you've been given utter nonsense as your dietary advice.

I wondered maybe if we could start with what are the False principles that we have often been taught in our society today as it relates to health.

[00:12:21] Benjamin Bikman: Right. There are many, unfortunately, uh, many just wrong ideas that are a testament to how science can be hijacked. Unfortunately. Truly, just as a brief tangent before diving into that, we're seeing this, we've seen this in real time, just in the most recent years where science has become almost a religion of the irreligious.

They wouldn't want to admit it or call it as such, but it's people now expressing their faith, almost like an article of faith. It's their devotion to science and scientists. We academic scientists become the priests and priestesses of this bizarre religion. And just as a reminder, science is the endless pursuit of truth.

And, and, and so there, there must be this deep humility and, and willingness to at any moment utterly reject your own hypothesis. The moment you have data that, that proves your hypothesis is incorrect. And so just so that everyone remembers, science is the pursuit of truth in the physical realm, and it's beyond the physical realm where my faith comes into play.

Actually, my faith comes into play even with my own science, their religion goes beyond our view of the physical world and science helps us understand the physical world. And I'm very grateful for that. And I'm grateful for my involvement. in that. So with regards to nutrition and the evidence that has been given, there are few areas within all of biomedical literature that is so contentious and so debated.

It takes on, if you'll pardon me for saying it, a bit of a religious fervor, a fanaticism. Perhaps just to be very precise for the sake of time, among many examples I could cite, I am a scientist who focuses very heavily and most primarily on the fat cell. And the traditional view and which has led to the traditional long held advice when it comes to how to lose weight, or to say that another way, how to shrink fat cells, the advice is eat less exercise more.

This is what everyone will have heard. Every time they're trying to lose weight, they go to their. Clinician or they are listening to some guru. That's what the sentiment is going to be. Eat less exercise more as if human obesity or any indeed fat gain in any animal. It's just uniquely a human problem among all animals as if it's nothing more than a problem of thermodynamics that we just have to balance all of the energy within the body.

Now, not to get too deep, but of course, thermodynamics as a principle of physics is was only intended to apply to what's called a closed system. In other words, the entire universe, the body, as much as kids, these millennials may think they are the center of the universe. They're not the entire universe.

And so a human is what's called an open system. We have energy that's going in and out of us in ways that we cannot compute, that we can't calculate or include as a variable in our calculations of, of metabolic rate. So the idea of eat less, exercise more. Is a very, uh, an overly simplistic view of human nutrition and fat physiology and, and just to highlight why that's important.

Let's imagine if, you know, we are, let's say I'm hosting a buffet and I'm inviting all of my friends and family. Everyone listening to this podcast is invited to come over to my house and I have the world's best chefs preparing delicious spread of food. And I invite everyone to come and come hungry because you're going to want to try everything on the table.

And I would then ask, what would you do to make sure you came to my home as hungry as possible? I bet most people, if they think for a moment, will come to a two part conclusion. One, they would eat a little less in the day or days before they come. And that would increase hunger significantly, and two, they would probably exercise a little harder or a little more diligently in the days or hours or some period of time before the dinner.

And indeed, it would work perfectly. That is a perfect formula to come to my delicious dinner, my buffet, as hungry as possible. And yet, you can see the problem. That is the exact advice we've been giving people for the better part of 60 or 70 years to help them lose weight. We tell them, eat less, exercise more.

And all that does Is put them against working against their own hunger and everyone's familiar with that game show here. The biggest loser. I would invite anyone to look up what happens to these contestants once the game show is over. They gain it all back. So the, the idea and everyone does anyone who really attempts long term weight loss, not everyone.

There may be some exceptions. But by and large, the vast majority of people who try to lose weight by restricting energy, basically making the body go hungry, they will, they're doomed to failure. And so the correct principle is to acknowledge that fat cells, that every cell within the body must be told what to do with the energy that it has.

We cannot assign some level of inherent intelligence to every individual cell. The body has ways of sending signals from one cell type to another in order to convey different messages, including nutrition status. And so the fat cell needs to know that if there's energy surrounding it, if there's energy available, it needs to know, am I okay to eat this right now and store it?

Because that's my job partly is to store fats is to store energy as fat, but there may be other times when there is energy available. Like during exercise, during exercise, energy goes up in the blood. The actual amount of calories we have in our blood goes up, even if we're not eating. And so the fat cell would see those calories and say, ah, but right now, I'm not supposed to eat you because you're supposed to be used by the muscle for energy, for the exercise.

And all of this is, I'm taking too long to get to my point, it's all about the hormone insulin. Insulin is the singular signal to the fat cell telling the fat cell that it's time to store energy. And this has an effect, a rippling effect, throughout the entire body. When insulin is elevated, insulin is so determined to store fat.

In the fat cell to store energy that it will actually reduce the body's metabolic rate by by several hundred calories in a day. And this is a very meaningful amount, you know, up to 10 to 15 percent of a person's metabolic rate can be turned down if they're eating a diet that's constantly keeping their insulin elevated.

And in contrast, if they're eating a diet, even if they're eating so they can eat, it's not a matter of starving themselves. If they're keeping their insulin low, their metabolic rate will be higher and the fat cell will not be storing fat, any of the energy that's coming in through their diet. It will rather be burning fat.

So the correct principle, rather than looking at obesity, a human excess fat mass and saying, we need to reduce the fat mass to reduce the insulin resistance, which is a really critical sentiment, although it's a little more nuanced than that. We cannot have someone starting their weight loss journey, their fat cell shrinking journey by just simply restricting energy and going low calorie and exercising hard.

That'll work for a couple weeks. And then it will fail because hunger always wins. And so rather than basing a weight loss strategy on hunger. base it on how, on the question, how can I control my insulin? And I don't want to get ahead of the conversation here, but that really is the key. Just acknowledging that, that energy calories matter, but so to do hormones, that there is an endocrine.

Aspect to obesity that has been totally overlooked for decades, even though in the early 19 hundreds, a hundred, 110 years ago, this was very, very well known. And then the conversation just started to change around world war two. And then the endocrine theory of obesity was completely lost. And there are those of us that are saying we've lost it to our detriment.

We are, we are fatter and suffering from the consequences of that fat mass more than we've ever been before. All while we're surrounded by all of these low fat, low calorie foods that simply are designed to make us want to eat more and more of it. So that's the correct information. That's why I am sympathetic to people who are, they, they've been doing their best.

They have all the intentions in the world, but the, the information they've been given, the principles have not been correct. And so how can I expect them to make the right choices when they aren't aware of them? So my hope is that people listening to this would look at their own experience if they. Deem themselves as needing to shrink some fat cells and rather than continue to count calories and obsess over every gram of fat, rather start to shift your paradigm to say, how can I lower my insulin?

And that will absolutely yield a superior and a longer kind of view again, because you won't have to worry about hunger. If you're hungry, you eat.

[00:21:39] Morgan Jones Pearson: Well, I think a lot of people listening can probably really get on board with that idea of being able to eat when you're hungry, but then you gave a talk at BYU and you kind of alluded to the topic of that talk earlier, plagues of prosperity.

And in that talk, you emphasized a few principles and you've shared these principles far and wide. That you believe can make a dramatic difference in metabolic health. Specifically, some of these include controlling carbs, prioritizing protein, and not fearing fat. I wondered what is most important for our listeners to know about the application of these principles?

[00:22:20] Benjamin Bikman: Mm hmm. Yeah. Thank you for bringing that up. I hope the audience can appreciate the origin of my affection for alliteration, which you cited multiple examples in one go right there. That's all born from Elder Neal A. Maxwell, actually, just as a funny little tangent on my mission in Russia in the mid nineties.

I kind of discovered Elder Maxwell, you know, starting to really read the conference editions of the Ensign at the time for the first time in my life and was so enamored by his writing style that I would actually use his talks to practice my translation as I had to translate for the mission president very often and any visitors.

I would have my companions read other Maxwell talks and I figured if I could translate another Maxwell talk, I can translate anyone. So anyway, that's part of my affection for alliteration. So yeah, those, those principles control carbs, prioritize protein, don't fear fat. And then I've, I sometimes will refer to a fourth, although I didn't in that talk, which was frequently fast.

We have a, certainly a culture of faith. That includes fasting. And I think beyond the spiritual instances monthly that there we are very justified in having a more frequent fast, albeit not avoiding water, but avoiding calories and just controlling what you're eating or drinking and drink water and even a little bit of salt if needed to help your blood pressure stay high.

But I'm a big advocate of frequently fasting and having it structured so that those all of those ideas are based. primarily to or designed to help people focus on the macronutrient, which is carbs, proteins, fats that matters most when it comes to controlling insulin. So we have experiments that we do in my lab and many others around the world have done similar experiments.

If, but we just have done this over the last year again, in a different context, if someone eats pure fat, which we don't do very often as humans, of course, there is no insulin response whatsoever. This means that as someone eats pure fat, and I'm not advocating anything like this, they won't store that fat because there's no insulin response.

So the body will just burn it. And then if someone eats pure protein. Which we do now because we fear fat, but in nature, protein always comes with fat. There's no exception to that. And I believe we should eat it that way. You digest the protein better if it comes with fat. It's almost as if God knew what he was doing when he designed every natural protein to come with fat.

And then our hubris, we've pulled them apart. But pure protein also won't increase insulin. However, pure carbohydrate. in the form of, you know, pure glucose, which most closely would be something like sugar or bread or, you know, anything, any kind of refined wheat product is going to get metabolized as virtually pure glucose.

Then they will have a substantial increase in their insulin increase. Insulin will go up by about 10 times and then we'll stay elevated for up to two or more hours. Now, if a person is insulin resistant, It will go up even higher, even maybe double what it is 20 times above where it should have been, and stay elevated for up to four hours.

Then the tragedy is that by then we have such a culture of eating. We eat a starchy, sugary breakfast and there goes our insulin. And by the time it's starting to come down, we're ready for our mid morning snack. And once again, by the time it's ready to come down, we're having our starchy, sugary lunch.

And then the same thing goes for the afternoon snack. The same thing goes for dinner. And, uh, and then the same thing goes for an evening snack, which is usually when people actually eat the worst. And so a person is spending every waking moment and even hours into their sleeping moments in a state of elevated insulin.

And that is the singular most common cause, the main contributor to what's causing insulin resistance. It is this never ending insulin spike. And within the, within the culture, in the LDS culture, One of the reasons I really enjoy the opportunity to share this sentiment isn't because I'm declaring war on all carbohydrates.

I'm not. I'm not at all. Carbohydrates represent an incredibly diverse class of foodstuff, from fruits and vegetables to all kinds of different grains, and they're all prepared in very, very different ways. Uh, so my general sentiment is if, if the carbs that you're eating comes in a bag or a box with a barcode, it's one to be very, very careful with, um, and then I, I, at, at, at, at its best level, focus on fruits and vegetables, eat them, don't drink them.

Um, but in this case. Again, the reason I, I like to emphasize this point is because I have such a strong thought a strong feelings on addiction. Um, and it is of all those macronutrients, it is carbohydrates that are the most addictive. You know, for example, I mean, this is proven in the literature that that is the macronutrient that people will seek and crave more than the others, but we all instinctively know this.

No one is sitting around on a Saturday night, turning on a movie and then sit down and they think to themselves, Oh, my gosh, I sure could just crush a plate of bacon and eggs right now. No one, no one is thinking, man, I really want a hard boiled egg, pure protein and fat that would just really hit the spot.

No one thinks that if only we did the moment we start craving something, we are craving something that is salty and crunchy or sweet and gooey. And by necessity, that means it is based on carbohydrate. Now, it may or may not have fat in it. It most certainly won't have protein in it or a very modest amount, but it's the carbohydrate that we really tend to crave.

And that, to me, is the key. And I know I'm getting a little bit ahead of the conversation, but that to me is really what's at the heart of the word of wisdom, that as much as members of the church have wanted to view the word of wisdom as an explicit dietary code, there has never been, to my knowledge, a prophet or apostle who has stated that, you know, this, the following is the word of wisdom diet, and there's no temple recommend question that attempts it.

To create a specific step by step so called word of wisdom diet. Anyone who claims otherwise, I think is going way too far, but the word of wisdom as President Packer elaborated on so well, so many years ago is, is a set of principles. It's a principle with a promise, as he reminded us, and other than the very few habit forming substances that the brethren have told us to avoid, then we are free to make our own decisions and, but even then I look at that and I think, is there a higher law to this?

If we have been told to avoid these things because of their addictive potential. Then what else should there be about the word of wisdom? And this even further, I'll never forget when president Hinckley, who was the prophet during a lot of my formative years, during a lot of my decade of decision, you know, from around the time of 16 to 26, he one time referred to pornography as being a violation of the word of wisdom.

And I was so struck by that. And, and this has been reinforced in my own studies and comments that I've heard from the brethren that really the word of wisdom is a call to control addictions. And I, of course, don't have the authority to state that as law, but I would encourage members of the church to rather than try to find a specific diet to adhere to.

The Word of Wisdom is really more of this little voice that's asking you, are you addicted to what you're doing right now? And if so, it's violating the Word of Wisdom. So it really is an effort, an encouragement to control your addictions. That, to me, is the heart of the Word of Wisdom.

[00:30:04] Morgan Jones Pearson: I want to dig into that a little bit further.

I love what you said. I had a coworker a few years ago who asked me, he wasn't a member of the church, and he loved to drink coffee, and he asked me one day, he's like, Why don't you drink coffee? Can you explain to me? And he worked with a bunch of members of the church and I tried to explain it to him the best that I could.

And I just said, I think it's all tied to, we believe in having control over our bodies and anything that's addictive. takes away some of that control. Anyway, long story short is he was like, I have asked a lot of people in our office, this question, and that's the first decent answer that I've gotten. And I'm sure I've answered many questions related to the church, totally off base, but

[00:30:51] Benjamin Bikman: I certainly aligned that answer aligns with my view.

That's absolutely true.

[00:30:56] Morgan Jones Pearson: Well, and, and I, I want to, I want to ask you a couple of follow up questions related to that. One of the things that stood out to me, That you talked about in relation to this is that we talk about moderation and all things. And obviously that's something that we believe as members of the church.

But you said that that works for some people, but for, for people with addictive personalities, addictive tendencies, moderation sometimes may not be the answer. I wondered if you could elaborate a little bit on that.

[00:31:28] Benjamin Bikman: Oh, I would be delighted to in fact, what's so interesting is that we've all heard that so much.

And I, I wonder at the origins of that phrase, because I don't think it's stated in the word of wisdom, right? I mean, I could be wrong, but I'm pretty certain it's not that this is not a verse of scripture, but it sure has. I don't believe it is. So I want to be careful in how I'm saying that. I do not believe the term moderation in all things is in scripture.

I've only unfortunately heard that term used to justify what I would consider to be bad habits. But, but yeah, my, my sentiment that I think you're referring to is that, that, that, that, that is such a beautiful idea. It's such a wonderful sentiment that. You know, just enjoy something a little bit and then stop.

But what if you're addicted? Um, like, for example, how ridiculous would it be for us to tell an alcoholic who is at a, at a social gathering and someone offers him alcohol? And he says, no, no, I can't. I'm an alcoholic. And they say, well, then just have one glass and then stop moderation and all things. After all, you shouldn't restrict alcohol.

So, I mean, we can see how laughable that sentiment is. If we share it with someone who is an addict and we need to be honest that many people are addicted, not only to overt vices like harmful substances or harmful material like, like pornographic material, but even things that, that we as, especially as Latter day Saints have given a pass to like sugary foods, um, junk foods.

You know, it's hard to imagine a social LDS gathering without some kind of junk food at the heart of it. And I'm not. saying that's evil. I'm not at all. Um, but I, I do think we should be mindful of the fact that within the state of Utah, the LDS faith, we are the fattest and most diabetic of all organized religions within the state.

And I think that's a problem, um, that we've essentially traded our vices. And while we don't imbib in things that may make a man come home and beat his wife because he's drunk, he's going to die 30 years prematurely because of his diabetes. So a different sort of tragedy. Now, again, I'm not trying to equate those two things, but, um, yeah, with, with, with a sentiment of moderation and all things.

I think is a rosy view of human behavior and it, uh, further ignores the reality that many people, again, I believe, particularly within the church struggle with carbohydrate addiction, uh, that they find it very difficult that they, they are very pleased that they're not drinking coffee or tea or alcohol or taking any kind of tobacco products.

And yet they're killing their health by eating processed ultra processed junk food. And drinking 80 ounces of sugary soda every day that that we need to just be careful and I don't think members of the church suffer from any sort of ego that we're better than anyone because we don't handle these other addictive substances.

I don't I've not ever seen that frankly. But I still think we should acknowledge the fact that a carbohydrate addiction is a, is a real thing. And thus, there may be instances where we tell ourselves, you know what, no moderation today, it was saint. Everyone will pardon me for quoting, uh, I think a Catholic saint, Saint Augustine, I think said abstinence is easier than perfect moderation.

And that is a sentiment that I think is just perfect that there may be people who at certain times in their life look at that plate of cookies and just say, I'm not going to eat any. Now, the trope of, or the idea of moderation and all things, someone who embraces that idea would be offended and say, Oh my gosh, no, enjoy some cookies.

But this person knows that if they eat one cookie, they won't stop until that plate is empty. I know people that are hearing me say this, they, they feel this in the, so in those moments, they're actually stronger. It's, it would be easier for them to not even eat a single cookie than it would be to stop at one cookie.

And maybe I feel so strongly about this because that is exactly. Me, for example, if I want ice cream on a given evening, which I enjoy rarely because I understand the metabolic consequences of it so well, um, but let's say I'm on the phone with my wife and I'm coming home from the grocery store and I say, what kind of ice cream do you want?

And I bring home a pint for her and a pint for me. For some reason, our minds are wired so differently as a result of genetics or environment or a combination of the two. That she has this remarkable ability to pop the lid off that ice cream daintily eat a few bites and then put the lid back on and put that pint in the freezer and I look at her as if she's an alien because I can't I can't fathom doing that.

If that lid is coming off. I'm eating the whole thing and in fact, I'm even going to start thinking about eating her ice cream, um, because I just, my brain gets lit up and I have such a hard time stopping and so for me, I, I've acknowledged that I'm an addict when it comes to certain sweets, certain treats, ice cream, in fact, is and cereal.

I mean, it's the silliest things. But my wife does not have that. I've never really seen her addicted to a food. I mean, I will eat this sort of thing until it makes me physically sick. And even though I mean, it's true addiction, it is true addictive behavior where you know what you're about to do, you're going to regret it and you do it anyway, because it's going to give you such a sense of pleasure in the moment that is.

The ultimate definition of addiction. So for people who tend to struggle with this, you must reject this elegant sentiment of moderation and all things in some aspects of your life. And to some degree or another, everyone will experience this. And you know, if a person listening to this is thinking, well, I don't have that when it comes to food, maybe you have that when it comes to social media on your phone.

Um, whatever it is, everyone to some degree is going to have this tendency. So the moderation in all things sounds so nice. And I just think in many instances in life, certainly when it comes to diet and sweet and starchy foods, it's not going to work very well in many people.

[00:37:53] Morgan Jones Pearson: Well, I think the thing that's so interesting about what you just said is, um, and, and I believe you talked about this in one of the things that I watched or read in preparation for this interview, but is the idea that everybody's application of the word of wisdom may be a little bit different, dependent.

dependent on knowing themselves. So like you said, with your wife, like she has this ability to have self control in that aspect of life where you recognize that you don't totally have that. And I, and so I think it's important as we're trying to, to best apply the word of wisdom in our lives to try to come to know ourselves.

You have invited people to just try these principles that you teach. And it reminded me of the idea of like experiment upon the word. You've encouraged you to recognize that there is discomfort with any lifestyle change. And I feel like this has gospel application as well for anybody that's trying to make any kind of spiritual change in addition to physical change.

Why do you think that there is that discomfort when we're trying to make changes in life?

[00:39:06] Benjamin Bikman: What an interesting question, one perhaps better answered by a neuroscientist or someone who studies habits and addictions, but I do think it is a matter of habit. That we simply get wired and we get comfortable with a certain way of doing things in a certain time of eating in a certain type of food that we're eating.

And so in that particular context, speaking of diet, it becomes very difficult because we have to acknowledge that in its nicest way of describing it, people become habituated to a certain way of eating. But to say that another perhaps more honest way. They may become addicted to a way of eating. And I don't mean to just harp on that one singular thing.

I think Elder President Nelson's Think Celestial talk, he lists this series of addictions, including food addictions, but he also mentioned things like gaming and anger and, you know, these, uh, ones that you wouldn't necessarily expect to, to, to really, I think, go beyond. The word of wisdom and it's at its simplest, the word of wisdom has to do with food because that's just really what the word of wisdom is.

The DNC 89 is mentioning, which I appreciate very much in evidence of the Lord's concern for our health, for our bodies and how we treat our bodies. But again, that higher level of the word of wisdom could almost be seen by taking that list of addictions that President Nelson stated in his think celestial talk.

And then have a frank accounting with ourselves, a reckoning of sorts and saying, what am I struggling with? It could be a dad who comes home from work and it is just pure anger and fear and terror from the moment he gets in the house because he's addicted to anger, maybe because of his job or whatever.

But that to me is, is a reflection of a person who is not learning to control themselves and in at a deeper. Maybe the deepest level of the Word of Wisdom is the sentiment of learning to control the power that we have within our bodies. Because in so doing, we, we show to Heavenly Father, our worthiness and, and our fitness of, I don't mean that in a physical sense, but us being fit for, or found worthy of being given greater responsibility and greater power.

These bodies give us a very modest amount of power in, in, in, I think a grand eternal scale. And that if at the end of our lives, we've been able to show a heavenly father show that they have judgment that look, I had this much power, which is a balance of my, my genes and my circumstances, which elder Maxwell refers to when he talks about desires, that we are a function of our genes and circumstances.

And that has enabled me. A certain that has given me a certain amount of power and authority over the world and over myself and others, those around me, I learned how to use it responsibly. I believe that moment, that acknowledgement that that reality qualifies us and, and, and, you know, if I were looking at this from the level of the divine, I could imagine heavenly father then saying, okay, I see that you've learned to control the power I've given you.

I now can give you more. I think that really is the most, the purest version of the word of wisdom, learning to control addictions. Yes, but only because that is the most obvious example of you learning to control your body, which is a way of you learning to control. Your, your power, whatever your authority is.

And in so doing, we prove ourselves worthy of being given more.

[00:42:52] Morgan Jones Pearson: Let me ask you this, Ben. At the end of your BYU forum address, you said this, you said bodies can be a tool to help us. develop divine attributes that prepare us for eternal progression was what you were just talking about what you were getting at with that statement.

Because to me it felt like a pretty loaded sentence.

[00:43:12] Benjamin Bikman: Yes, yes, indeed. In fact, I'm so I'm so grateful to hear you say that just so everyone knows when I was invited to share that. Forum at BYUI was very humbled, particularly because I was a very young professor still at the time, and I realized just how uncommon it was for someone to get that opportunity.

That is a rare opportunity in such a long form to share such a sort of thesis idea. And so I took every phrase very seriously and really wanted to be very thoughtful with everything I said. So I'm very, I'm very, uh, appreciative that you heard. The sentiment there, even though I wasn't able to express it fully, but yes, what I just said, the longer version is what I just went through in the past few minutes.

That's what I intended that. I think we really need to look at our bodies as in all of mortality. Of course, this is a testing ground. We know that in the body is. The test, uh, ultimately it is how are we treating this body given our genetics and our circumstances, our environment, what are we doing with what we've been given?

Are we, are we faithful stewards? You know, this almost this idea of the parable of the talents. If what you've given me, Lord, can I do well with it? And in so doing prove to you that I can be given more just like the faithful servant or are we squandering? What we've been given, are we indulging? Are we allowing the, the, the immediate needs or the opportunity to say that another way to abuse our power and authority?

Is that going to come to define us? But yes, that whole sentiment is really what I meant in that statement.

[00:44:54] Morgan Jones Pearson: Perfect. Well, before we get to. The end of this interview, I wanted to touch on a couple of things really quickly. So I, speaking of being good stewards, my sister in law is an incredible mom and she's the one actually that introduced me to your research.

And I asked her in preparation for this, I was like, what questions would you want to ask him? And so I wondered if I could ask you a couple of things quickly that I think just come from somebody that has. Admired your work, but maybe hasn't had an opportunity to ask you questions one on one. One of those questions was if you were counseling parents wanting to help their children and teens develop healthier eating and lifestyle habits in a fast.

food and soda filled world, what would be your top advice? And what is one thing that you would really focus on when it comes to teenagers? Are there specific snacks that you would recommend?

[00:45:51] Benjamin Bikman: Yeah, I love this question. And in fact, I can't help while you're asking it. I think about a conversation I just had with my office BYU whose son is preparing for a mission.

And in so doing, it really needs to lose weight. And so this, even beyond The, the just wanting to have a healthy child, there's this very real concern that a lot of these young people or their parents have, which is, am I going to be healthy enough to serve a full time mission? And, and I pray that every young man, particularly as a priest of duty and as many young women as want to, including my daughters, I hope, I hope they will embrace that opportunity.

So there, I appreciate this because so much of a child's metabolic health and mental and spiritual health, of course, all of it depends on the parents. And that the parents cannot be passive participants in watching their child suffer metabolically. So now, having said that, I appreciate the tendency of kids to want to rebel against their parents or, you know, where the parents can be too heavy handed.

Something that I've been concerned with because I'm a college professor and I've seen lots of young female students. who struggle with this is that I've never wanted to speak about this in a way that would make my daughters or that would increase the risk of them developing an eating disorder. So I've wanted to be always be very thoughtful with how I discuss this and what I've concluded and indeed the way that nutrition is framed in the Bickman home.

It is simply this gentle question. Have you had any protein yet? That is so my kids, we have snacks for the kids. They have crackers or whatever. Now crackers is junk food, whether we want to admit it or not, it is a packaged, it's a refined carbohydrate that comes in a bag or a box with a barcode. And so I will ask my kids, have you had any protein yet?

And then they will say, thankfully, ah, no, I haven't. I will have this and then I'll indulge. And I'm fine with that. I never, I don't want my kids to think of things as totally off limits are forbidden. Now, as the parent. With my wife, we avoid the temptation of bringing all of that junk food into the home, and that is where parents must exert their authority.

You don't bring in foods you don't want your kids to eat, because if you have a pantry filled with starchy, sugary snacks, you cannot blame them for eating them. Any kid would want to eat that stuff, so you simply have to be selective with what you bring into the home. Again, not to the point of punishing the children.

I think there is room for some indulgences, but it is really the question, have you had any protein yet? And the protein forms in my home. What we found works with our kids is little beef sticks, um, you know, like little packaged beef sticks, like kind of these round kind of jerky things or sugar free yogurt or cottage cheese.

One of my son's favorite snacks is always whole fat. We never in my home, never anything is low fat. God put that fat there for a reason. And who, who are we to take it out? So for example, my boy drank skim milk for the first time this last weekend, and it was a horrific experience for him. He's traumatized.

He didn't, he's dead. He said to me, we were away for the long holiday. So dad, did you know that they made milk like this? It tastes like gross water. That's what he called it. So I was thrilled that I'm, I'm raising my kids well by only giving them full fat things. So it's a full fat cottage cheese with grapes.

That's his favorite snack. My, one of my daughter's favorite snacks is cheese sticks, which is also protein. Um, that's another protein source. We have my, my other daughter is beef sticks. That's what she likes. And my boy also sometimes likes jerky and we'll buy sugar free jerky. So we'll have just a mix of dairy and meat, you know, eat convenient, whether it's jerky or beef sticks or sugar free yogurt or cottage cheese or just milk, whole milk, all of those in our home qualify as a good protein source.

And that's what I want my kids to eat. And once they've gotten that protein with those healthy fats, their body can grow well, that can be incorporated as nutrients for growth. Then if they want to indulge in something, I'm totally fine with it. And I know they will eat less than they otherwise would have because they've already filled up a little bit on a good protein source.

[00:50:06] Morgan Jones Pearson: That's great counsel as a new mom. That's good. Good advice. Good day. Keep in mind Okay, the last thing before we get to our last question and this also comes from my sister in law in your BYU address You encourage people to do their own research rather than to simply take your word for it, which side note I loved you said that that's something that you always did on your mission in sharing the gospel So I'm going to talk a little bit about how we cultivate in ourselves and in our children a curious scientific mindset, the desire and ability to ask questions and search for real answers.

How can that bless us to live healthier and happier lives? How can we get real answers in a world of misinformation? And I feel like this is a massive question that we could talk about for a very long time with all kinds of gospel application. But briefly, how would you answer that question?

[00:51:05] Benjamin Bikman: Yeah. Once again, I'm just so tickled that that that's a statement that left an impression.

Yeah. I, I do think it's, it's interesting to me that within the church, we have such a beautiful faith tradition of, uh, of studying and thinking and even praying all in an effort to, to really learn what is true. And, and we, I don't think we should keep that relegated to the spiritual realm that I do think we should apply that same rigor to the physical world.

That's exactly what I do as a scientist. And so if someone is trying to better understand their type two diabetes, They should study it. Go to PubMed or go to google dot, or scholar dot google dot com. Now, as they do so, I encourage them, unfortunately, there is, even within the realm of science, there is tremendous bias, there are tremendous conflicting interests.

And it's, in fact, indeed, this is part of what I believe matters with the beginning of the Word of Wisdom, if we look at the justification for DNC 89, the stated justification is because there will be people in the latter days who will have their own designs, they will have their own goals that will not include the health and well being of us.

So we need to be a little skeptical, uh, as we start to do our study, even in the realm of science, there's tremendous bias and dare I say misinformation. Now, I know that that then starts to sound like I'm just telling people to trust me, you know, which I just said, as you quoted me, I didn't want them to do, but I would just say this.

Be very, very thorough in how you study, but be mindful of the fact that there are a lot of very, very prominent voices. that are stating ideas when it comes to nutrition that the Lord has warned us against from ancient times even to modern. We should be careful in, in, in who we listen to and thoughtful and, and, and maybe at when possible experiment and look at the advice through the lens of scripture, ancient and modern.

[00:53:17] Morgan Jones Pearson: Well, that was, that was so informative and so helpful and all of this has Thank you so much for taking the time to to answer all of these questions. And I've enjoyed this conversation so much. My last question for you, Ben, is what does it mean to you to be all in the gospel of Jesus Christ?

[00:53:36] Benjamin Bikman: Right. Thank you. Thank you again for this opportunity. It is so fun for me to be able to speak on these kinds of topics, something I don't get to do as often as I'd like, although I'm a BYU. So I do have those opportunities more than my colleagues at other universities. Yet to be all in, what a wonderful question for me.

The older I get, the more I think that it all in to be all in is in my instance, to be a completely devoted husband and father, that it is to embrace and love and thank heavens for the Abrahamic covenant and for the temple marriage that I enjoy with my wife and the sentiment. That we are a forever family, um, and we have that opportunity.

So to, for me to be all in is to give my best efforts to my wife and my children and any other effort in any other aspect of my life. It simply will never matter as much as those efforts within the walls of my own home. That's what it means to me to be all in. It is to embrace my eternal family.

[00:54:46] Morgan Jones Pearson: Thank you so much.

That especially hits home. I had a tough call to make this week related to putting family first. And so, uh, your answer is particularly timely for me, and I'm sure it will be for some that will listen, uh, Ben, thank you so, so much. It's been such a pleasure.

[00:55:05] Benjamin Bikman: My pleasure. This was a lot of fun. I really enjoyed it.

I hope that some of the sentiments we've discussed end up being helpful for anyone listening.

[00:55:13] Morgan Jones Pearson: I'm sure that they will be. Thank you again.

I'm so grateful to Dr. Benjamin Bickman for joining me on today's episode. You can find Dr. Bickman's book, Why We Get Sick in bookstores now. Big thanks to Derek Campbell of Mix at Six Studios for his help with this episode. And thank you for listening. We'll be with you again next week.