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Morgan Jones Pearson: [00:00:00] Of Michael McLean, Sherry Dew was once quoted as saying, Michael is one of a kind, truly. There's been no one else in the Latter day Saint culture who has been as prolific and as diversified in his talents. It would simply be impossible to measure or quantify the good this man has done. His work, from church commercials, to church videos, to countless songs, to the forgotten carols, Have blessed the lives of people all over the world.

His contributions to God's work have been immeasurable, and yet he says he's learned that God's love is never earned. In the past 30 years, Michael McLean has sold more than 1.5 million copies of his more than 30 albums, five books and two videos. He's a songwriter, composer, author, performer, playwright, film producer, and director.

With a background in film, Michael began early in his career making [00:01:00] commercials for radio and television and later used his film experience to produce and direct several films, including Together Forever, The Prodigal Son, and Mr. Kruger's Christmas, starring film legend Jimmy Stewart. He released his debut album, You're Not Alone, in 1983, and from there began a best selling musical legacy.

Since 1991, Michael has performed the Forgotten Carols for more than one million people across the country. And the carols has become a beloved tradition for thousands of families who mark the beginning of their holiday season. Season with this magical musical. Michael and his wife Lynn, have three children and five grandchildren.

This is all in an LDS Living podcast where we ask the question, what does it really mean to be all in the gospel of Jesus Christ? I'm Morgan Pearson and I am honored to have [00:02:00] Michael McClain on the line with me today. Michael, welcome.

Michael McLean: Thank you,

Morgan Jones Pearson: Morgan. Well, this is such a treat. Michael, you are an absolute legend and I wanna start.

I don't know how many people are aware of this, but I want to start at what could have been the end of your story, your story that has been absolutely prolific within the Latter day Saint community. But you received a kidney transplant last year. First, I wanted to ask you, how is your health? And second, I know that receiving a kidney is an uphill battle.

I wondered, how did you find your donor?

Michael McLean: First of all, Yes, it was all I think 11 months ago yesterday is when I had the surgery. I didn't know how severely damaged my kidney was. Um, until I got COVID and I thought, Morgan, given my age and I got weak lungs and I'm a diabetic, I thought [00:03:00] if I get COVID, I'm toast.

So I did everything I could to avoid it. But lo and behold, I got COVID. And when I survive, I thought this is epic. I am immortal. I can live through anything. And then the doctor said, not so fast. Your kidney function has gone down to like 10 percent and that's stage five, uh, renal failure, kidney failure.

And we need to get you on a kidney donor list. And, uh, and sometimes it can take anywhere from three or four, I think the national average to, to get a kidney, uh, Can be as much as five years, five or six years. And so everybody in the family got tested and, uh, we didn't have any matches. So last, um, yeah, the year before when I was doing the forgotten carols [00:04:00] and, uh, And I realized I, I, how do you advertise for a kidney?

Hey, right. Keep me alive. You know, it's, it's kind of weird and kind of impossible, but I wrote this song at the end of the forgotten carols. And we did a limited tour because when you have kidney failure, I was just sick for a couple of years. I only had about an hour and a half or maybe two hours a day.

And so I wrote this song called when I'm gone, the song's still here. I think it opened with. I saved my finest love song till now at the end of the show when I hope you'll remember and, uh, and the final line of it. So I don't want to go, but when I'm gone, the songs will still be here. And there was a, I think maybe a QR code or something so that if people had any interest in seeing if they matched, and I was so uncomfortable doing this on my heavens, but, uh, but I was desperate.

To, and I wanted to, I wanted to remain, I, I [00:05:00] didn't think I was done. So people started submitting and, um, and it took, uh, gosh, another. The university of Utah did a brilliant job of trying to screen everybody who was interested. And some people would send me notes and. And do some extraordinary things to try to help and then we found a living donor and, uh, and he's, uh, not a relative, but a friend doesn't like me to refer to him by name at all.

Um, but, uh. And it's just, I'm just going to pause for just a second. This really, this really surprised me in the journey and part of the journey I had done, uh, the, um, the North star conference for the kids dealing with being gay or trans or whatever. Um, and, uh, and I went to do this thing for about six or [00:06:00] 700 people there in the theater, and then there were another 1500 through the internet.

And the opening, uh, singers was, this is the first time I ever listened to a LDS transgender choir sing before I did my part, tell stories and sing songs. And, um, it was sweet. And a lot of the people who were there knew who I was, and they had been fans of mine when they were, before they tried to transition.

So. A few weeks later, I'm happened to be in Salt Lake and, uh, I was with my wife and my son and we were going to a gelato place and right in front of the gelato place, there was, uh, a trans woman who had been at the program. And she's just adorable. She's with her partner. And she says, Oh, brother McLean.

She's waving at me. [00:07:00] She's the bone McLean. I was at the North star thing. I was in the trans choir and is this your wife? And she was just adorable. And she said, Oh, I love your husband so much. His music has meant so much to me. Um, let me walk you guys back to your car. So we're walking back to the car and she says, I've heard about.

Your kidney problem. Oh, don't we love that? That tells me that, um, my blood sugar is a little high. So all in the spirit of authenticity. So anyway, she says, let me walk you back to your car. So we're walking back and she says, brother McLean, I heard about your kidney and I know I'm trans, but, um. I've taken really good care of myself, and I just want you to know that if it's a match, I want you to have my kidney.

Well, I was, I was speechless, [00:08:00] and she misread my speechlessness as being uncomfortable with the idea of a transgender person wanting to give me their kidney. So she started apologizing all over. Or so, oh, brother McClain, I, oh, please no, I didn't mean to offend you or make you uncomfortable or whatever.

And I said, stop. The reason I didn't speak is because I was just thinking, if I get a transgender kidney from you, does that mean I have to wear better looking shoes? And, and then she was great. She squared me up, kissed me on the cheek and said, I am serious. You have blessed my life. If there's any way I can bless yours, I will, and that changes you, it just changes you.

He was like, whatever kingdom you're going to hun, I want to go there. I want to be where that is. And so [00:09:00] the gratitude of the people who said, we'd be willing to help you out. So we find a donor. We had to go through several. Several and and hundreds that I never even knew about because of HIPAA rules and, um, and we made the transition and I got the kidney and everybody who had had a kidney transplant said, Oh, brother McLean, you felt so lousy for the last couple of years.

You're going to get this kidney and he. You're going to think, aha, new life, and you're going to be running marathons. Well, those people were 40 when they got a kidney, they weren't 70. So the, the last year of recovering from the transplant surgery has been hard. And, and it's a, you know, it's an, a constant thing, but, um, it's the most humbling moment, Morgan, you can know, because you think.

I mean, how do you thank the person who gave you an organ so that your life could be extended? [00:10:00] And I tried to thank, you know, when I came out of the surgery, I tried to thank the doctor who had done this extraordinary thing. And I said, um, I don't know how to thank you, doctor, but you spent your whole life learning how to do it, being willing to do it.

And prepared at the top of your skills to preserve my life. And Morgan, he told me this, this was so extraordinary to me. He said, well, thank you, Michael. You know, surgeons get a lot of the glory if things go well, but he said they all stake the hits if things don't go quite so well, but you know, Michael, it's a team and I'm thinking to myself.

Well, I was in the operating room, you know, I saw 12 or 15 people, you mean that team? And he said, Oh, no, no, no, no. The team that is the reason you're alive. He said, how many you think are on that team? And I, you know, I said some dumb number. He said, [00:11:00] no, 500.

What? 500 people have to be working at the top of their skills. In coordination with every one of the other 500, without whom, and these are people that will, you will never know, and without them you'd be dead.

How do you even process that? 500 people use their skills so that I can have a chat with you now and have more years to learn more stuff and love more people. And then I think of the people that have been praying for me and putting my name on the prayer rolls of the temples and Oh, my gosh, you wake up every day like today and you don't think about your life in terms of what's this great [00:12:00] gift that I can maybe be worthy of in the next world?

What's my mansion going to be like? If I'm a great guy? No, no, no. You know, what's celestial? If we're thinking celestial, I get to talk to Morgan right now and all the people that are listening, we get to have this moment. And this for me, this is it. There may be great promises in the distant future, but I get to have this changes everything.

Morgan Jones Pearson: Well, half the time that you were talking, I had like full body chills. Um, just because I, I. And I've had the chance to interview people before who have had similar experiences with organ donation. And I think it's some people just don't, we don't fully appreciate, like you said, the number of people involved to make that happen.

And also just the gift of life. Um, this year, [00:13:00] Michael, you will return to perform in the Forgotten Carols, which is something you weren't even sure you would have a chance to do again, but something that you have poured your heart into for 30 years. More than 30 years now, what will it mean to you to step on that stage and have the chance to perform again?

Michael McLean: Well, that's a great question. What will it mean to me? I

think I don't think like that. I think what will it mean to the people who are coming? If I get to do this live again? Are there people who need to have that experience? And if I'm able, first of all, and we haven't talked about this, but I've had a 50 year battle with clinical depression. And part of the way my depression has manifest [00:14:00] itself my whole life is the complete sense of my own worthlessness.

I always think. And, you know, you're in show business for five decades and you make films and you perform a lot and whatever, but you're convinced there's a hook. There's this, uh, the fraud police that are going to come and say, this guy doesn't know what he's doing. He can't act. He can't sing, get him out of here.

So that's kind of my default position. And, um. And there were times when I thought during the transition of these 32 years, literally, Morgan, I would think if someone coughed during part of the show, I thought, oh, man, they need an excuse to get out of here because I'm awful. Just off. And, um, and I remember I was down in Dallas when we were doing the show down there.

And I thought, I'm going to, I can't do this anymore. This, I am a fraud. I don't feel anything. I'm insecure. I'm wrecking this for people. You know, [00:15:00] I wrote it and I think it's lovely, but I'm wrecking it for people. And so I had planned to call and cancel the rest of the tour. And, and as I'm schlepping CDs and trying to pay Sells merchandise so I can pay for pizza that night for our crew and cast.

This woman comes up and she said, um, you know what just happened? You know what just happened, Brother McClane? What? She said, I was able to bring my best friend, who has been unable to come. To anything Christmas for seven years, and I was able to talk her into coming to the show. She said, we haven't been able to sing carols, have popcorn or watch Christmas movies as best friends for seven years because she can't manage Christmas because she got raped on Christmas Eve.

Oh, my gosh, but I talked her into this on the condition that she could sit on the back row [00:16:00] in the aisle. And she came and she told me, she said, at this point in the show, she reached over and held my hand or my arm. And she said, Jana, I'm feeling it again. I'm feeling Christmas again. And then with tears in her eye, this 30 something gal said, How do I thank the guy that gave Christmas back to my best friend?

And because of my inability to process it and my Issue, mental health issues with depression. I didn't believe it. I mean, I smiled, I did the kind things, but I thought that can't possibly be. I just, that she's making this up. And then I got the realization that Michael, this was never about you. You know, you got to have the [00:17:00] experience when you wrote it.

That was great, but this is for her. And if you stop doing this, if you don't show up, hit your marks, say your lines and be gracious, they won't get to have the experience that you had in the beginning and haven't had since you show up, Michael, you do this thing. It's part of how. You join me in the work of loving one another in your unique way.

So get over yourself, show up, do the thing. So when you say, how does it feel for me to be able to return to the stage? Um, I don't love that part of the process. Um, what I love is that thing that can happen, that connection that we can make when we reassure each other, and this is the cool thing about live theater, that when we made the film of the play [00:18:00] of the Forgotten Carols is not the same when you're all there live in one room.

What happens that moment is this precious thing just for the people in that room. It's just us that get to have this exactly this way. Flaws, mistakes, goof ups, fun, whatever. That's a miracle. And to get to return to that, my great hope is A, I won't get sick and blow it, but B, that the people who for the last two or three years when I haven't been able to be part of it, that they'll find something that they need that they didn't get.

Otherwise,

Morgan Jones Pearson: I love that. Um, Michael, I want to go back to something even before forgotten carols And that is mr. Kruger's christmas, which I have to tell you I watch it every year It is part of my christmas this [00:19:00] the monologue that mr Kruger gives when he's looking at the baby. Jesus is my favorite thing ever and so I I had to ask you a couple of questions about Mr.

Krueger's Christmas. You were a young man when you pitched this idea to the quorum of the 12 in the first presidency, and you said in an interview that I watched that you were too young to know if what you wanted to do was even possible. So I wondered if you could, if we could have you share with us what you remember about pitching that

Michael McLean: Well, first of all, I had been hired as a 24 year old.

To be the producer of the radio and television broadcasts of the Tabernacle Choir. Bonneville had some recording studios. And at the time I was kind of the hot guy doing commercials. There was a run of a two or three years where if you were living in Utah [00:20:00] and watched commercials that had songs in them that were on the nightly news on the three stations that we had for two or three years, they were online.

I was like the jingle king of, uh, whatever. And, um, and I had done some commercials as part of the Homefront thing as a freelance guy that ended up winning like the Academy Awards of advertising. And so I was kind of temporary. So I was around the guys at Bonneville when Homefront was beginning. But they had, um, they had lost the guy who had currently, or at that point.

Period was the producer of music and the spoken word and all the specials for the tab choir. And so they called me in to interview for this job. And I thought, this is insane. I haven't graduated from college. I play in nightclubs. I go to Nashville to write songs to try to be the next Chicago or Billy Joel or [00:21:00] whatever.

And they, you know, a grownup should be the producer of the tabernacle choir. So I thought it was a joke, but I love these guys and they were so fun that I thought I'll shave Oh, I'll put on a suit. I'll act like a grown up So I go in for the interview and they and they start talking to me about the Tabernacle Choir And and my response is reverent as it was was ah, they're a great band, but you got to hear him live I grew up in Chicago in New Jersey.

No Mormons But every Mormon, every non Mormon that I knew that I grew up with every Christmas, Jews, Muslims, Christians, Catholics, all of them listen to the Tabernacle Choir. But you kind of have to hear them live because if you watch music in the spoken word through a little four inch speaker, old people with purple hair, I'm not sure that's reaching the biggest audience.

So what do you think we could [00:22:00] do to, to find a young, to expand and to get a younger audience? And at the time, the Muppets were huge. The Muppets were huge. And I said, well, why don't you do everybody who wanted to conduct the choir that was afraid to ask and we'll do that. We could have Miss Piggy coming out of the pi I'm thinking they're gonna laugh.

I'm saying, just change the This was the worst. I was so young and, and dumb. And I said, just change the name of the choir. The big joke was, instead of Gerald Otley and the Mormon Tabernacle Choir, why don't you just rename them Jerry O and the Motabs? Nothing. Morgan, nothing. And it was in that moment I started to think about how much I loved Christmas and that instead of having their Christmas concerts just be Christmas songs with a lot of poinsettias as settings, what if, what if their singing drove the narrative of an actual [00:23:00] story?

And I started winging things that were the foundation of what. became the story of Mr. Kruger's Christmas. And I saw, my gosh, I was so excited about it. And so I, I presented it to the church and, uh, and they killed it. No, we're not interested. Oh, that's too bad. And then I did it again the next year instead of because I had to produce Christmas stuff.

And this was my idea. I just seen red skeleton on the Oscars and I thought, well, maybe it could be pantomime and maybe we could tell this story about this old guy and his need killed, killed, killed three times the church. And I was working for Bonneville, its production arm. It's just said, no, we're not interested.

And I thought, you know, I don't belong here. This is, you know, I grew up in New Jersey. The reason this matters to me is I want all my beloved friends who were great and they protected me as a [00:24:00] Latter day Saint, but I wanted them to know how deeply we shared our love for Jesus. And this seemed like a great way.

But the church that I sustained and loved these guys, they said, no, thanks. So I go to, I go home to my wife who was terribly adventurous. And I said, um, we're going, we're leaving. I don't think, I don't think Salt Lake's where I belong. I think I feel like I'm a fish out of water. Certainly this job with the choir and doing commercials was lovely, but let's go back to New York where I know people, you know.

Catholics and Jews and people who don't say bless your heart and tell you exactly what they mean. And I said, so let's go. I'm planning to leave. And my wife, my extraordinary wife, now almost 50 years, my wife says, Oh, great. Let's just ask Heavenly Father for confirmation and then I'm with you and she gets on her knees and I didn't want to [00:25:00] see the gets on her knees.

Let's ask Heavenly Father. I don't need to ask Heavenly Father. He has told me through his servants. We don't want you get out of here and she said, that's all fine. And I'm with you. I let's go. I'm ready for the adventure, but you just tell Heavenly Father our plan and we'll just get it confirmed and then we'll be fine.

So she's guilting me into being the priesthood holder, into praying, oh geez. And so, she's on her knees, literally, I mean, Morgan, this sounds like this is a script, but I'm not making this up. So she's on her knees, you know, hey, hey priesthood guy, go ahead and pray about it. So, I'm on my knees, and I said, uh, Heavenly Father, um, As the scriptures say, you need to make a decision and then ask for confirmation.

Well, I've decided to leave being the young producer of the Tabernacle Choir and to go back to New York and [00:26:00] maybe do advertising or learn to be a better songwriter or, or whatever. And, um, and, uh, and Lynn and I would just like to have some confirmation that you're good with this. Pause. Pause. And then I get this feeling, Michael, I, I really don't want you to leave until you make that movie about the old man.

And in my prayer, I'm saying, don't you get it? Heavenly father, you are guys, the people you called to run this organization, they're not interested. And then I hear, and the way, you know, I hear. I hear him first of all in songs, but with a, with a kind of a, a, a, a sweetness and a chuckle and he says, well, this may be a shock to you.

Haven't, uh, Michael, but I have a couple other kids that have pretty good ideas. Maybe [00:27:00] you ought to learn how to make that movie. With my help this time, I know you're creative. I gave you those gifts, but you're taking on a pretty big deal and you can't tell this story unless I teach you how to get it told.

So for the next three years, I want you to learn what you have to be willing to do so that everybody there. is convinced it's their idea. So I want you to learn how to present this. I did 82 separate presentations for the next three years until somebody says, Oh, I think that's a great idea. Let me pass this on to the next realm.

83 and I'm, I'm trying to act out all the parts and I'm doing little pictures [00:28:00] and developing the story with, um, with my friends, uh, Alan Iverson and I mean, uh, Scott Iverson and Alan who worked with me on the music and the spoken word. I, I started to develop to do this until it got approval all along the way, kind of the hockey puck theory, everybody needed to, to touch the thing, and I kept pitching away until I got an opportunity and I'd presented it to everybody.

Everybody had to agree that they wanted to do it before I ever made the final. And it wasn't just a pitch. I was standing up saying, I want you to let me make this movie. I'm 27 and I want to produce a film and I'll figure out how to go get a superstar. And though I wanted it to be Jimmy Stewart, I didn't know how to do that.

And it wasn't like I'd never dreamed it could happen. I was too young to think I couldn't do it. If Heavenly Father said, don't go to New York. Let [00:29:00] me help you. We can do this. Here's the gift and curse of being young. Okay, I can do this. God's going to be with me. I can do things I never dreamed of doing.

Not because I'm the guy. But you called me. This is my job. And you will help me do something, though. I'm completely inadequate, but I trust you and then and we could go on for four podcasts about the process whereby I'm standing alone in front of the first presidency, the quorum of the 12. I have 30 minutes uninterrupted, and I've got a chart with my little drawings of what this would be like, and I have a cassette player so that when the choir music came in, I could push play and I started to do the part.

So I made that presentation. With a kind of, I'm sure some thought, you know, don't be [00:30:00] flip or, you know, this is these are our leaders. This is guiding the kingdom of God. And I had a kind of not arrogance, although I'm sure it may be seemed like that, but I had this confidence of you don't understand. I'm standing here doing bad impressions of Jimmy Stewart because that's kind of who I wanted to be the guy.

So I made the presentation and then. After they approved it at that meeting, never forget the faces of those. I remember when the grand Richard started dozing off, I'd find an excuse to drop something to kind of wake him up. So I'm telling this story and then afterwards, uh, the message was, okay, who are you going to hire to produce it?

What do you mean? Well, you've never produced a film with a major international superstar. Who are you going to hire? I said, well, if I hire somebody else, then I'm their [00:31:00] consultant and they're doing what I felt I was called to do. I'll do it. Trust me. I'll figure out how to do this because guess who's on my side.

So I go through this extraordinary process. The stories are truly spectacular of talking Jimmy Stewart into doing it, how it happened, how I got to, I mean, we could go on and on and on and on. 300 million people saw this movie in 11 languages all over the world. Is that something I could do? I don't think so.

But what I thought, Morgan, was look at the great lesson that I've learned. If you work hard, if you have faith, if your intentions are pure and good, look at the things you can do. So I thought the rest of my life, I was going to be Michael McSpielberg. I was going to be the guy and not only do I write songs, but I'm going to make more movies for Heavenly Father [00:32:00] that can help him, uh, prepare people for his second coming.

And look at the success I had, as inadequate as I am, and I thought the lessons learned in that early part of my life and career would sustain me for the rest. And of course they didn't. Then real life hit me. And I had to learn something about faith that was different than the kind of faith you have at 27.

To the kind of faith you have to have when your son comes out and you don't know what to say, or the kind of faith you need to develop when you go nine years and you don't feel him at all. To the kind of faith that you have to do to trust him in all things. When you don't know if he hears you anymore and you think you owe me Heavenly Father.

Look at all these films. I've made seen all over the world in all these languages. You owe me. I just want [00:33:00] you to help me get through this challenge with my son. My family is falling apart and you're not helping. And then you think, well, it's my fault. Do I, I need to pray harder or I need to go to the temple more often or maybe increase my donations or just double down on what it all.

We've done, which is I will earn your love, Heavenly Father. I know you didn't say well done now, good and faithful Michael at the end of forgotten carols. And I thought, man, you're a tough hustle. If God in heaven can't say thank you for doing what was a pretty extraordinary thing for a kid. How am I ever going to impress you?

I want you to love me. I want you to tell me you're doing great, Mike. Don't worry so much. Don't be so afraid. Just trust me and love me and it never came and I kept chasing it. [00:34:00] Please look at what I just did. Do you love that? Look at how hard I'm trying to be where I want to be where you are. And I kind of grown up in a works family.

More than a grace family, and I kept thinking if I don't get to feel it, if I don't feel that warm and tingly, if that's not happening, then I must be falling short.

So, when you chase that for a long time, Morgan, the lessons that heavenly father is trying to teach you.

So this is way too long to have told all this, but the truth is, I get a chance to tell a story about Jesus that I wrote when I was 40 years old, 39 years old, same age, uh, Dickens was when he wrote A Christmas Carol, and like me, he [00:35:00] was worried about feeding his family, so he went on the road and played all the parts.

So I thought, well, I'm not Dickens, but Dickens Christmas Carol doesn't have songs. So I went on the road, told the story, paid some light bills, kept trying to expand it, and uh, and then just life hit me. Catch it didn't work out the way I had decided it was in this neat little box and was that's the way it has to be and then I get to find out.

No, it doesn't. God's way bigger than all of this. He's way smarter. Why don't you open your heart to things? You have been unwilling to hear because you decided in advance. This is how God can talk to me. This is how you're supposed to hear him. What if he wants to talk to you different? What if you hear him different?

What if you respond to his calls different? How are you and are you [00:36:00] willing to do that and, and, and have faith, have faith in him even when he's not around?

Morgan Jones Pearson: Michael, I feel like you are touching on, and I think this is one reason people love you so much. I think you were, and always have been beloved for your songs and your stories.

Um, but I think. Your willingness to share things that are at the root of humanity. I think, you know, clinical depression, having a son come out, struggling with your own faith after that. I think that that is those are things that are weighing heavy on a lot of people's hearts. Um, And so as I listened to you talk, there was a question that came to my mind and I want to ask you, what would you say you've learned as a result of your experiences about a father's love, both our heavenly father's love and your love for your

Michael McLean: [00:37:00] son?

I think that's really a great question because first of all. And this is more authenticity than maybe you want to hear, but I had spent my life trying to teach people. I made the most successful commercials in the world about love your family. And my son comes out and says, dad, I have sung those songs.

I've been all over the world singing your songs. And nobody is as good in a fireside or whatever talking about how important your family is. Well, you were a lousy dad to me. What? No, no, no. You failed me. Wait a second. This is the only thing that matters. No, dad, I was invisible to you because you could only see that version of me[00:38:00]

who's keeping the commandments and loves his family will raise his son up to be. So you saw me as that stained glass version. of me that I'm sorry to say, dad, but that you could show off to everybody. Oh, not only do I write great songs, but look at how perfectly my family turned out because of my wonderful father.

He says, dad, you failed. We don't know. How do you even process that as a Latter day Saint? And the first thing you want to do is you want to kind of protect yourself. But the most important thing that the spirit told me was shut up and listen, see him. See the real him, allow him to reveal it because he'd been hiding it for fear that he'd disappoint me if he said, this is what I'm going through.

And, and, [00:39:00] and you can't possibly comprehend it. In fact, I grew up in a family, he said, where things that were heard about this issue, things that we said to each other as Latter day Saints way back in the day, he said, were not only not true, they were breaking my heart and it was happening on Sunday dinner.

You have no idea what I'm going through. You have no idea the pain. So I concluded, well, it's all me. And the atonement may be a great idea for everybody else, but it will never work for the abomination. It still makes me cry. Jeff and I ended up spending several years together. Helping him with an addiction recovery attempts he did to try to kill himself because it was too painful.

We wrote, we've been working on for a long time, a book together. You know, the original working title is How My Gay Son Made Me A Better Mormon and How His [00:40:00] Meth Addiction Helped Him Find God. I thought that'll leap off the shelves at Deseret Book, you know, but we started to try to be absolutely honest.

And authentic in the hopes, and this was Jeff's concern, he said, I think I need to do something to help kids like me that end up killing themselves. And I, I lucked out, but he said, what can I tell them about our story? And what can you tell them about your part of the story that may help people heal? You know, this just occurs to me to answer your question of what I learned about being a father is I've been writing all these songs.

All these years, 50 years of writing songs that I thought I was writing to bless the world. God gave me this gift and what he wants me to do with this gift is let me, let me help heal you. Let me tell you, you're not alone and you can be together forever. Someday [00:41:00] and hold on, hold on. The light will come.

That's my gift. That's what I thought. So I would write these songs thinking. That I had to use my gifts, sort of straighten everybody out. This is real truth and you'll feel it because songs will make you cry and, and it'll kind of be the spirit and won't it be a great contribution in your life. And then I realized, oh my gosh, Morgan, that none of those songs that may have helped other people and may have blessed them, Heavenly Father didn't teach me how to write them for them as much as he wanted to get through to me, because he understood I could only hear him through this language I have of songs.

So years ago, I wrote this song called Safe Harbors because It was when there was this horrible crisis, refugee crisis in Kosovo and everywhere else. And I was thinking, and my brother in law was over there managing [00:42:00] it for the United States, big cheese in the air force. And I thought, I said to Lynn, how do we help the refugees, those refugees back then?

And she said, Oh, you really want to help the refugees? She pointed through our field. She said, why don't you start there with Melanie? Well, Melanie's son, Melanie's son had shot himself and they found him on the road, but the last memory she had is he was such a pill. And he was disrupting the family that she put all of his clothes frustrated pair.

Everybody gets this if you're not going to live these rules and help me out. I'm a single mom, then you go find somewhere else to live and put his clothes in a suitcase and put it on the porch.

And the next day she finds that he shot himself. What about that refugee? So I decided I was going to try to write a song to try to comfort Melanie. [00:43:00] I didn't realize until a number of years later. When Jeff and I were invited to join Imagine Dragons at the first ever Love Loud concert and, uh, uh, Steve Young and Barb, who were kind of coordinating a lot of it, we weren't big headliner acts like Neon Trees and every Walk the Moon and everybody else, but in between the setups for the big bands, could I say a few things and I thought anything I'd say would be dumb, but I think if we're trying to help heal families, The real message would be what if Jeff and I can still sing together, the dad who goes to the temple every Wednesday and the guy who's left the church singing together.

So here's what happens. We stand up 20,000 people. I'm accompanying Jeff. Who's got such a great voice. And he's singing the song that I thought 12 years earlier was to try to help out [00:44:00] Melanie North. And here's what he sings. There are refugees among us that are not from foreign shores. And the battles they have been raging are from very private wars, and there are no correspondents documenting all their grief, but these refugees among us all are yearning for relief.

You can see him in the market checkout lines. You can see them in all these places, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. This is a call to arms to reach out and to hold evacuees from the dark. This is a call to arms to bring anguished souls to safe harbors of the heart. And then the final verse. Can you see through their disguises?

Can you hear what words won't tell? [00:45:00] Some are losing faith in heaven because their lives are a living hell. Is there anyone to help those who have nowhere else to flee because the only arms protecting them belong to you and me? This is a call to arms to reach out and to hold the evacuees from the dark.

Can you feel the pleas of the refugees for safe harbors? of the heart. So here we are singing this song and it's like, Oh my heavens, God loves me so uniquely and so individually and so perfectly. That he chose a language he knew was uniquely mine to send messages to me so that I could learn [00:46:00] to be a better father.

He wants to help me be a better father. And then my son who had been struggling so much is doing spam a lot in Vegas. And says, Dad, I was living in California at the time. He said, please come up to Vegas. I have something I have to tell you. So I go up to Vegas. He had come out. And he said, you know, I realized I gave up praying because I just figured, well, God can't answer my prayers because I'm an abomination, so it doesn't matter.

But he said, and he was a very successful missionary in North Carolina, spiritual kid, but had given up. He said, guess what? Heavenly father, my heavenly father answered my prayers. What'd he say, Jeff? He said, this caught me by surprise. He said, Jeff, you got dealt a tough hand. God dealt a really tough [00:47:00] hand being gay in a straight world's tough being the son of the songwriting icon of the LDS church Way tough and he says and now you've fallen in love and you have some choices to make and Jeff Once you have decided and you own your decision as your father I am always here to help you to be happy

God the Eternal Father Tells my son, when you make a choice that you've thought through, and I know how hard it is, and you own it, and you need my help, I'm your father, and I will always be there to try to help you learn to be happy. That's what changes fatherhood for me. If my Heavenly Father says, here's your job, [00:48:00] not to straighten him out.

Not to give him 50 lists. Here's your job. Love him the way I love him. So way long, too long of an answer, Morgan, but that's what changed me as a father.

Morgan Jones Pearson: I love that. I, I think it reminds me, one of the interviews that I watched with you, you talked about one of the forgotten carols and, um, that is the first one that's called let him in and is sung from the perspective of the innkeeper.

And, um, your son has sung that song many, many times. And in the song, there's a line that says, I never saw the boy. And you talked in this interview about how, um, that you realized that those words were true of you and your son. Um, I wondered, Michael. For you, this Christmas, why might you invite people to let Him, meaning the [00:49:00] Savior, into their homes and their hearts

Michael McLean: this year?

Because they don't have to be so scared. They don't have to be scared that they haven't passed the litmus test of His love. They don't have to be scared that they have failed somehow. They don't have to be afraid that, um, the family that they adore will be... Not forever together, forever someday, because everybody's not exactly walking the same path.

Life's scary. You get on a gurney, you're just about to get a transplant, and you're trying to put on the brave, faithful face. It's scary, Morgan. I might not get out of this. Now, you know, I don't mean to be rude or crude, but no matter what the... I started working on a song called No Matter [00:50:00] What They Tell Ya.

Scary as hell. You just don't know. You just don't know. And isn't it interesting that all of life you think of from Adam and Eve, how scared were they leaving the garden? And the only guy out there in the lone and dreary world was the guy who conned them. So they had to get sent out into the low. Yeah.

Scary. It's all scary until. When you realize that the message of Christ is fear not, it's always going to be scary. Fear not. The new emphasis at the end of the play of Forgotten Carols when Connie Lou says, here's the great message. Don't be so scared. And the only way that that fear gets removed is when the one Who came to take away [00:51:00] the scariness and, and, and if I was going to be the devil and I wanted to mess people up really good people, I just convinced them, you know, it's a really great, this whole Jesus thing is great, but just not exactly you yet because, you know, you're constantly offending his spirit and you're never up to snuff and you're always apologizing and secretly you're afraid you can't get over stuff.

And I, I just think letting, let him in is recognize that he's in, he's in all of it. It's not like, Oh, you, you did that terrible thing and now he'll leave you alone. You go sort this out on your own. And then maybe when you have proven yourself worthy of his companionship, you can come to him and he'll be with you.

Great thing. Lesson I learned from Jeff when he had his drug problem, he said, you go to an AA meeting. And what you learn instantly [00:52:00] is that Jesus is in all of it. I used to think, you know, I've been told by you and the church and everybody else, Oh, don't offend the Spirit because Jesus can't be with you if you have offended Him.

And the great lesson we learned in our family is you can't offend Him. You can't offend the God who made you and loves you and came to redeem you and get you home and heal you. So when you talk about being all in, for me, what that means is to recognize he is always all in. You can't run away from it.

You can't hide from it. Paul makes it clear. You cannot escape the endless quest. The atonement is not some cool thing that happened back in Gethsemane. It's ongoing. He's not stopping his work until he's [00:53:00] got us all healed. Till he's brought us all home. Till we're being embraced by that. That's the reason I hope people come, that they'll have a sense of in this place, in this theater, with Michael and his friends, and these songs.

You know what I feel? Safe. I feel seen. I feel loved. And we're not afraid.

Morgan Jones Pearson: Michael, this has been such a treat for me. I think more than anything just to be able to feel your heart. And I think that that is a special gift that you have. I loved as I prepared for this interview, listening to you sing so many of your songs and, and realizing that you can hardly sing them even after singing them for years and years and years without.

becoming a little bit emotional. And I [00:54:00] think that's because it's coming straight from your heart. And I just, I want to thank you on behalf of so many members of the church, um, who have clung to your songs in times of need. And, and just thank you so much for everything that you have done. And the example that you've set of being all in a big thank you to Michael McLean for a wonderful conversation.

The 2023 tour of Forgotten Carols opens tonight, November 22nd in Tooele, Utah, and continues in Utah, Arizona, Colorado, and Idaho until December 23rd, visit forgotten carols. com to learn more. We're grateful as always to Derek Campbell of Mix at Six Studios for his help with this episode, and we'll look forward to being with you again next week. Transcripts provided by Transcription Outsourcing, LLC.