The following transcript is intended to aid in your study. However, while we try to go through the transcript, our transcripts are primarily computer-generated and often contain errors. Please forgive the transcripts' imperfections.
Morgan Jones Pearson 0:00
There are many references that members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints may appreciate more than most in McKay Coppins' new biography as Mitt Romney, Romney: A Reckoning. There's a reference to lead kindly light toward the end of the 2012 presidential campaign, a reference to something being praiseworthy and have good report, prayers offered and priesthood blessings given Coppins understands these aspects of Mitt Romney's life. He is after all, a Latter-day Saint himself. McKay Coppins is a staff writer at The Atlantic where he covers politics, religion and national affairs. He is the author of The Wilderness a book about the battle for the future of the Republican Party, and he has been a visiting fellow at the University of Chicago's Institute of Politics. He lives near Washington DC with his wife and children. This is All In an LDS Living podcast where we ask the question, what does it really mean to be all in the gospel of Jesus Christ? I'm Morgan Pearson, and I am so honored to have McKay Coppins on the line with me today. McKay, welcome.
McKay Coppins 1:16
Thanks for having me, Morgan.
Morgan Jones Pearson 1:18
Well, I almost said on the line with me tonight, because McKay and I are recording this. This is a late night episode of All In. This is kind of exciting. But I just want to start out and say congratulations on an incredibly well done book. I absolutely loved reading it. It's a great narrative about somebody that all of us are familiar with. And I think the ability to make something that we all kind of have watched for the last 10– 15 years to make that feel like I was reading it for the first time was really, really, I was so impressed. So well done.
McKay Coppins 1:58
Thank you. That's very nice of you to say it's, it's kind of like a relief to finally have it out in the world for people to be reading.
Morgan Jones Pearson 2:06
I have no doubt. Well, I think to start off, I think the thing that struck me most as I was reading was the number of Latter Day Saints characters, at least Latter Day Saints at one point in time characters in the book and how different they all are. So of course, we have met, but there's also Glenn Beck, Harry Reid, John Huntsman, Mike Lee. And I feel like as members of the Church, oftentimes we're like pigeon holed and made to feel like there's one type of Latter Day Saints. And as a Latter Day, Saint yourself, I wonder, did that strike you as interesting how different all of these characters are? And do you think that readers might catch on to the fact that we're not all the same? Or will they continue to think that?
McKay Coppins 2:52
I hope so I mean, it's funny, like, I obviously, was especially interested in the Latter Day Saint characters. You know, as I went, Mitt Romney, in the course of doing this book with me, like, gave me all of his journals, and a lot of his email correspondence. And as I went through his journals, I kind of naturally gravitated toward the entries about, you know, Harry Reid, or Glenn Beck, or, you know, Orrin Hatch, or Mike Lee or whatever, you're right. Like they have, these are very different personalities, they have very different politics, they often kind of, at various points in their careers have feuded with each other or run against each other in campaigns. And one of the the, like, strengths that I hoped to bring to telling this story was that I had a more nuanced understanding of Mitt Romney's faith, and probably the average, you know, political author, right. Because I also am a member of this church, I wanted to really demonstrate the texture of the religion in all in all different facets, right. And sometimes that meant that he was, you know, having disagreements with another prominent Latter Day Saints. Sometimes that meant that it was showing how his faith influenced him at key moments in his political career. Sometimes it was just as simple as writing about him, taking a day off the campaign trail to go to the temple and what that meant to him. But the goal was to maybe kind of show a more nuanced and interesting and hopefully realistic view of Mitt Romney's faith, and I think a lot of people probably got used to and seeing him run for president and seeing a lot of the media coverage of it.
Morgan Jones Pearson 4:43
Well, I think he did a great job of that. And like I said, I hope I think one thing that's always interesting to me in interviewing different members of the Church is how different we all are that you can have the same foundational belief system, but then Beyond that, you can be so so so different. McKay, you have never shied away from talking about your faith or identifying yourself as a member of the church. And that's always impressed me. but correct me if I'm wrong, you didn't disclose in the book that you were a member of the church until the very end? Was that a deliberate choice? And if so, why?
McKay Coppins 5:24
I'm gonna be honest with you. I basically forgot to disclose it. And I'm not kidding, until the very end of the process. I mean, because I think it's because I, I'm so used to writing about my faith, often from a personal, you know, standpoint, like, like you said, I don't hide the fact that I'm a practicing and believing Latter Day Saints, like I've written stories about it. I've written personal essays about it. I talked about it and interviews add in. Sometimes I forget that not everybody knows that about me. In fact, I was just joking with my wife, we were talking about how when the Washington DC Temple was reopened for an open house, before it was rededicated because it had gone through these renovations, I guess was that earlier this year, or last year, but I was on one of the early tours, that was like media. And then there was some kind of dignitaries and VIPs and stuff. And I was on this tour in a small group. And we were being led through the temple. And in my group was Larry Hogan, who was the governor of Maryland, who I had interviewed before for a couple different things at the Atlantic. And like, halfway through, I think it was like, after we got out of the celestial room. Larry Hogan came over to me and said, Oh, hi, it's good to see you. And then he said, you know, this, this doesn't really seem like the kind of story you'd cover. Why? Why are you here? That was like, Oh, I'm actually a member of this church. And he had, he had no idea. And I was like, Ah, I sometimes forget, people don't know that about me. So the, the short answer to your question is, I forgot to disclose it. And then in the very final like revisions, I was like, oh, I need to write somewhere that I'm also a member of his church. And so I wrote it into the acknowledgments because that was kind of the last thing that I wrote. But I certainly didn't want that to be something that people didn't know. And I've made a point of bringing it up in kind of the early interviews as I've I've done promotion for the book.
Morgan Jones Pearson 7:25
So funny. Okay, before we get too far into talking about the book, I'd like to talk about you a little bit. You wrote an article 10 years ago for Buzzfeed. And the article was something along the lines of why the internet is not shattered my faith. And you shared that as a 13 year old boy, you use the internet to peruse various aspects of church history, you wrote, the stuff I read was confusing, frustrating, and more than anything incredibly compelling. I devoured historical accounts of Joseph Smith's many wives news stories about scientific challenges to the historicity of the Book of Mormon, and any number of testimonials that depicted church leaders behaving in a less than godly manner. But then you wrote the results. Rather than shattering my religious belief system, these problematic episodes and challenging ideas were simply folded into it. I wondered if you could talk to me about why that experience was formative for you. And you make a point to say, like your parents didn't make you feel like you had done something wrong. So why was your parents response? So important? Do you think?
McKay Coppins 8:36
I think back to that experience all the time as like a potential pivot point in my own kind of spiritual journey and testimony. Like, if my parents had reacted differently than I did, I wonder, you know, if I would have gotten to the point where I'd have, you know, the faith that I have now, but basically, I you know, I remember reading about all these controversial things, I was the I was new to the internet altogether at this point. And I, like, didn't know what chat rooms were, and I didn't know what message boards were. And I was kind of like, new to all of this stuff. And also was like, learning about all this, these, you know, historical episodes in the church. And, you know, a lot of misinformation that I didn't know as misinformation, but I was just kind of, like, fascinated by it. Right. And I was kind of trying to figure out what I believe. And at one point I took, I mentioned to my dad, and my mom that I had been reading this stuff and, and asked them about it. And their initial, their immediate reaction was not to get defensive or to you know, pull my internet access or, you know, make me feel like I was in trouble. They just said, Okay, let's talk about it. Like what have you been reading and they were so kind of non judgmental and open minded about it, that it made me feel like these, you know, complicated things. didn't need to be, you know, testimony ending things right? Like, they didn't need to cause a crisis of faith, they could just be kind of folded into my faith, I could understand them, process them, internalize them, while still trying to make my way toward being a better Christian and, you know, a better a better person. And, and I think that, like, when I say I think about that as a pivot point, I think that if my parents had kind of been flustered and been mad at me for questioning or reading this stuff, I think my natural inclination would have been to think, Oh, they're hiding something or, you know, the church is hiding something, and I can't, like there, I need to keep digging through these, like anti Mormon forums or whatever. But instead, they just they they like, they made it clear that it was totally natural, to have questions, to have doubts, to explore these things, that that's part of a normal spiritual journey and normal testimony building process. And I think I really internalized that idea. And it's really helped me throughout my life.
Morgan Jones Pearson 11:09
Well, and I think, you know, as a kid, if your parents don't act alarmed by that, you're much more likely to come back and tell them the next time you read or see something. Otherwise, you're like, I'm not ever mentioning this again. I love that. I love that example. You made a name for yourself. McKay covering the presidential election when Mitt Romney was running the first time around, other journalists called you Mormon Wikipedia, because you answered everyone's questions on the church on the campaign trail, which I would imagine is a very unique spot to be put in as a journalist yourself, when you're used to being the one asking the questions. How did you kind of embrace that? And what did you learn from it being the person that they approached with all their questions about the church?
McKay Coppins 12:00
I was glad to do it. I mean, it was strange, right? Like, being the only member of the church in this on the campaign press bus that was covering Mitt Romney, like, it meant that just it's not like I sought out that role, it just naturally happened that, you know, people had to write stories quickly, and file them to their editors. And sometimes when some issue would come up related to the church, they didn't have time to like, do a deep dive and learn everything. They would just say, hey, McKay, can you look at this? Is this correct? You know, is the way I've written this accurate? And it's a well, not quiet, I think you would want to say it this way to fold in this context, or whatever. Or they'd say, so what's the deal with the baptisms for the dead? Like, I just don't understand it. And I've been asked to give them like a 92nd explanation that they could synthesize into one sentence. How do you do that? Well, luckily, I had served a mission. And I feel like I got really good at like, fast, you know, doorstep conversations. But it was it was hard. But I, I think it was also where I saw myself as being able to have kind of a unique value add to the press coverage, right, because there were a lot of good reporters covering that campaign. And I was very young, I was probably one of the least experienced reporters covering the Romney campaign. At that point, I think I was 23. When I started. And I, I felt like I was not going to get better scoops than like the veteran New York Times reporters, and I was not going to have a deeper grasp of, you know, modern political history than some of the kind of magazine correspondents that came on the campaign trail. But what I did know was a lot about the faith of this presidential candidate. And I had a sense, at least at the time, that that faith was really central to who he was so so I saw it as my job to or you know, not my job, but one of my jobs, to explain, and hopefully kind of demystify that faith, right. And so like I, I also was grateful and lucky to have an editor at the time, Ben Smith, who recruited me to go work for him and cover the campaign for him who had a genuine affection for, for me and my, you know, my faith and Latter Day Saints, and who encouraged me to write about those issues, but not in like an exploitative way. He really wanted me to, you know, try to answer people's questions. One of the first pieces I wrote that kind of got a lot of readers on the campaign trail was an, like an explainer, a short explainer piece, about what temple garments are. And I remember when he asked me to write about it, I was like, Oh, I don't know that this feels like really He fraught, you know, but it was at a moment when a lot of people were kind of on Twitter speculating about, you know, Mitt Romney's underwear or whatever. And he was like, Well, what is the deal? Why don't you just write about what this is. And so I remember going to we were, I was living in New York City at the time, and I left the office and went and sat in like, a McDonald's in a booth, and just spend like, a one hour typing out, like, you know, and a q&a style explainer of like, this is what it is drawing on, like talks that, you know, General Authorities are given and information from the church website. And, and just like a very straightforward thing, and I filed it, and I was like, this is pretty boring. I don't know if this is like an a, you know, who cares about this? And he got a ton of readers and, and it was kind of it was kind of enlightening to me, because it made me realize like, oh, there are a lot of people who are just Jen genuinely curious about this stuff, and don't know anything about it. So I think I like I have an ability here to, to provide kind of a journalistic service.
Morgan Jones Pearson 16:03
Absolutely. Well, and I think, as I was listening to you talk about that it's so interesting to me how we're placed in like circumstances that we never would have imagined. And that like, God can use us in really unique ways. I think that's a that's a good example of that. This book had to have taken an incredible amount of effort. And I want to give a shout out to your wife, Annie, because I noticed at the end in the acknowledgments where you said, like, she did a primary program and had your fourth child and all these different things.
McKay Coppins 16:39
She She is the hero of this whole book process. The award primary president, we had a fourth child, she runs our home finances, I mean, she is like I would not have been able to write this book without her.
Morgan Jones Pearson 16:54
So shout out to Annie, you're a rock star. But it had to have taken so much effort and sacrifice on the part of you and your family. And there are obviously many motivations for writing a book like this, and putting the kind of time that it requires into it. But I was impressed because I felt like you definitely took the opportunity to share things about our faith. I will say most of them are good things that we'd want people to know. There isn't at least one case, a story that is not particularly glowing from church years ago. But I wondered why was it important for you to write about these things as a member of the church? And how did figuring out how to frame those aspects of our faith challenge you as you are working on this book?
McKay Coppins 17:44
Yeah, you know, I was writing about Mitt Romney's faith, obviously, I've done it for a long time as a reporter, but in this case, you know, writing this book as a biographer, my goal was to get him to capture how his faith had shaped him, right, because I, you know, a big part of the the question I wanted to answer in this book is why, why is Mitt Romney become the way that he is like, what made him the man that he is, and, you know, he the journey that he goes through from being a, you know, a young kind of son of a privilege to a to eventually like a very wealthy businessman to then a presidential candidate, the standard bearer of his party to now kind of a pariah to a lot of his party, I thought was fascinating. And I wanted to know, how he, you know, what had carried him through this and there's really no way to write about him without writing about his faith that said, like, you know, most in almost all cases, like, the his the stories that I tell, like you said, are I think to, you know, to Nan Nan, Latter Day Saints will seem like interesting stories about how this, you know, this guy kind of built his character got through trials in his life, that I write about his, his mission in France and early on and how that kind of turned him into a serious person. Because, you know, as a young man, he was this sort of like, prankster who didn't take anything seriously. He was like a pretty good but not great student. He actually thought about skipping his mission because he wanted to marry his high school girlfriend and Davies, and, and who is not a member of the church sensed on some level that she that his faith was more important to him than he even realized, and said, If you don't go on your mission, you will resent me for the rest of your life. You have to do this and so he ended up going and she was right that he needed to do it. But you know, all those stories are I ultimately as a biographer, try that those stories are in service to understanding the subject, right. The one story that you mentioned, that's less less flattering about a, you know, former prominent church leader. You know, Mitt Romney told me that story, I think, in one of our early interviews, and I wasn't sure how to use it, and I wasn't, you know, unnecessarily determined to leave it out or to include it. It actually was not until later in the process of writing the book, that I realized that that moment, why that moment was important, and why it actually influenced this interaction that he had with a church leader, decades and decades ago, why that moment had influenced a certain political decision he made. And so once I realized that, that was kind of important context for the reader to understand, that was what made me you know, make the decision to include it. But again, you know, the, I didn't come into this project thinking, I need to, like, use this as a vehicle to, like, make people like the church. But I also didn't want to say that, you know, I certainly didn't think that people would come away not liking the church, it was mainly just how, how will, how can I explain how his faith has shaped him? And I, you know, I think my bias is obvious, which is that I think that his faith has cultivated a lot of his best virtues, it's forced him to constantly be grappling with his own conscience and his own sense of right and wrong, I think Mitt Romney would tell you that, without his faith, it would be much easier to just do always do the convenient thing and not worry about what he thought was right and wrong. But because of his faith, he he's always kind of, he's always kind of wrestling with his conscience. And I think that's what made him such a compelling subject.
Morgan Jones Pearson 22:05
Well, as you were saying that I was thinking, you know, I think what you just described is, what makes religion important. I think that it's the thing that keeps all of us grappling with kind of that natural man, if you will. And I think I was so impressed as I read the book, because it's very clear that Romney, even at times when he was encouraged to kind of let his faith lay low or to denounce his faith, he he was completely unwilling to do that at any moment. Like him or not, it is very clear that Romney's faith runs very, very deep and is at the core of who he is. What did you What would you say, as a Latter Day, Saint yourself, McKay, what did you learn from that personally?
McKay Coppins 22:57
Yeah, there's a fascinating moment in his first presidential campaign where his campaign consultants are starting to realize that what they called the Mormon problem would be a serious issue for him in winning the Republican nomination. And because, you know, there were a lot of conservative evangelical voters in the early primary states who were suspicious of him because of his fate. And, in fact, there's kind of a sad and funny story about one of his sons who embarks on a statewide bus tour to try to visit all 99 counties of Iowa to campaign for his dad. And like, he initially wanted to bring his whole family, but like two days in his wife was like, I'm not getting back on that bus. And so he ends up just by himself, you know, going from one diner and fair to the next trying to campaign for his dad, and over and over, the voters are saying, you know, your, your dad just doesn't believe in the same Jesus, I believe, and your dad just, I can't get on board with a Mormon, right. And I think that was really hard for Mitt Romney's sons who, you know, had grown up in Massachusetts, which like I did, which is a place where there are not a lot of members of the church, but at least in my experience, there's also just like, people are generally pretty tolerant of you. And they may not know that much about your faith, but they don't particularly care. But in Iowa, that's not the case. People have very strong opinions about religion. And so I think that was hard for them. And I think it was hard for MIT. And there was an interesting moment where his, his advisors and allies said, Look, if you want to win this campaign, you need to distance yourself from your religion. And the advice was kind of, you know, you just say that Mormonism is something that is part of my heritage, and it's something I inherited from my forefathers and I respect the you know, I respect them, but it's not really isn't that important to my beliefs now, right to bid and the idea would be maybe that would kind of diffuse some of the concern among conservative evangelical voters. And Romney just flatly refused. He said, There is no way I'm going to do that. My faith is non negotiable, that and, you know, he would get tagged a lot in those campaigns for flip flopping and changing on issues. And, and I think some, in some cases, he would now acknowledge that that's true. But the one thing that was totally non negotiable to him was his faith. And I think there's, there's something inspiring about right like it, as you know, as a member of the same faith, I could see being in his situation and feeling that pressure. And it would be easy to rationalize, like, look, look at the Think of how much good I can do if I become president. And, you know, I'll still keep all the commandments and keep my covenants. And, you know, it's just a publicly, I'll kind of distance myself, you could see the line of thinking that somebody could engage in, but the fact that he wasn't willing to, I think, showed how important his faith really is to him at the same time, and I'll just say this, as an aside, he also struggled with this, because he was once he ran for president, especially the second time once he became the Republican nominee, one of the most prominent Latter Day Saints in the country, if not the world. And that meant that he was kind of naturally the go to, like, example that people pointed to when they wanted to understand the church, right. And he struggled, because he felt like it wasn't his job to educate the country on his faith, right? Like his job was to win a presidential campaign. And he wasn't going to distance himself from his faith. But he also didn't feel like he needed to be the one who was kind of like the chief seminary teacher, and like educating all of American voters. But at the same time, I think he in the back of his mind, and we talked about this, like, I think he he, he must have known on some level that it was impossible to not educate Americans on his faith, because he is kind of like everything he did was a reflection on his church. And you know, I kind of sympathized with him as a reporter, covering him. I remember, there was a day when his campaign finally let reporters follow him into church on Sunday. And, you know, they did it because there's a long tradition of once a candidate wins the nomination, there's what's called a protective pool of press that basically, a small group of reporters literally go everywhere, he goes to document his, you know, his movements, and, you know, every action basically, and, and so he complied with that. But I was the reporter in the pool, who followed him into church that first day, and I remember sitting in the back of the chapel and just thinking, Man, this was like his last shred of his personal life, you know, and how important was it probably for him to, to kind of retreat from the press, get off the campaign trail, and just be able to sit in sacrament meeting for one hour every week. And now he knows that there's a bunch of reporters in the back of the room, kind of like watching his every move and writing down what he's doing is nothing sacred. And yeah, like I get, I get why he wanted to kind of keep that separate from his campaign. But I also think he realized over time that that was sort of impossible.
Morgan Jones Pearson 28:45
So, so interesting, I cannot even imagine being in a situation like that. McKay, you share a story in the book about MIT experience as a missionary in France with an autobiography of parley P. Pratt, and I have to say, as a writer, I love how you kind of bring it full circle at the end, you served a mission yourself. I wondered if you could share kind of that anecdote from the book? And then how, in your opinion, that anecdote captures the experience of many missionaries worldwide, at least that's how I felt when I read it.
McKay Coppins 29:18
Absolutely. He. I love this story. The first area that he was assigned to when he arrived in France was a port city. Outside Normandy, I believe called La Harv. I'm probably mispronouncing that, because I don't speak French but so we'll both go with it. La Harv was a predominantly communist city that had been really heavily bombed out during World War Two. And there was really strong anti American sentiment in the city, and pretty strong anti religion sentiment, which as you can imagine, made things pretty hard for an American Latter Day Saint missionary. And so He arrived with three other missionaries. And they got to work and the city was kind of composed of these big concrete brutalist towers. And they would literally just pick a tower every day, and go to the top of the tower and spend the entire day going door to door knocking, and every door would get slammed in their face. And often people would yell French obscenities at them or tell them, America should get out of Vietnam. This was in the 1960s, or, you know, like gay, they leave us alone. And they just it was one slam door after another. Day after day, week after week. He said he would go months sometimes without a single person talking to him, you know, letting him in the door and teaching a lesson. So even by the standards of tough missionary work, this is pretty tough missionary work, right. And for him, it was really hard because he desperately missed his his girlfriend. He felt like he wasn't accomplishing anything. And he would often complain to his companion like, what are we doing here? Like, this is worse than hard. It seems pointless, right? We're, we're just not accomplishing anything. Nobody's listening to us. Why did I put my life on hold to come do this? Right. He on top of that he had like, he was sick, he had digestive issues. They didn't have very much money or food he was living there. For a while they had taken up for in a house that they found out was a brothel. Later, so it was just a really brutal, brutal stretch, right. And after a certain amount of time in that area, his dad sent him a copy of the autobiography of parley P. Pratt, and he was sitting in his room one night reading it. And he came across a passage where parley P. Pratt had been serving in New York City trying to preach the gospel in New York City. And he had not had any success similar to to elder Romney. And in the autobiography, parley P. Pratt writes that they're praying about this. And the room fills with light. And they basically have this revelation where God tells them that he accepts their sacrifice, that that he's heard, he hears their prayers, He hears they're pleased. He's seen the work they've done. And he says, your sacrifices are accepted your sacrifices accepted. That was a really kind of clarifying epiphany moment for for Mitt Romney. Because he suddenly realized, like, you know, maybe the point of this right now is just the sacrifice, right? Who maybe we're planting seeds, maybe we're not, maybe nobody is going to listen to us. But what matters is that we're trying our hardest, and we're making a sacrifice. And God sees that. And I have to say, I that really resonated with me as a former missionary, because we've all anyone who served a mission had those experiences where there were just tough days or tough weeks, or tough years, right? Where you didn't feel like you were getting through or maybe you were really struggling with a companion or maybe, you know, you're you're working so hard, and you're just not seeing it come together. And, and like I personally think that a lot of the like small miseries of missionary life are actually what make missions so special. Like, even if it's just the you know, like the the schedule, waking up at 630 Riding a bike in 100 degree heat, not watching TV and movies, not listening to me, whatever it is, like, I think a lot of those those rules, you know, I think seem to outsiders often is like weird and anachronistic. Why would you put yourself through that when you're 1920 21 years old? But to me that making those small sacrifices has a sanctifying effect, right? It's what makes the work beautiful. And it's what makes discipleship beautiful. Like it has to be a little heart I think, and I just I really resonated with that story.
Morgan Jones Pearson 34:18
So so well said McKay. I think you captured I think it's like anything I think anything worth doing tends to be hard. And that is the thing that makes I often think like God could find some other way for people to join the church, I'm sure without using like a bunch of young people, but for those that do go, I think it's it's life changing. And the reason is, is because it's hard. Where did you serve?
McKay Coppins 34:50
I served in Dallas, Texas,
Morgan Jones Pearson 34:52
okay. The 100 degree he I had a feeling I was like you serve somewhere hot.
McKay Coppins 34:57
It was when I arrived on my mission and August, they were in Dallas was in the middle of a record breaking heatwave. And it was the first time I had regularly ridden a bike since I was a little kid. And I cannot tell you that it is the most I have ever sweat in my life. But again, I look back on those those those days fondly, now.
Morgan Jones Pearson 35:20
Wow. And so interesting how that happens. Okay, another thing I wanted to touch on, when Ann Romney encouragement to take over the 2002 Olympics, she said, there's more to your life than just making money. She outlined a few different things duty to country service to the church, etc. in encouraging him to do this. I wondered in observing MIT, as well as from your own experience, how do how does anyone keep those things like our civic responsibility, our church responsibility, the responsibility to provide for a family? How do we keep all of those things in perspective? And what did you learn as you worked on this about that?
McKay Coppins 36:08
Yeah, it's funny, I actually, as a dad, with young kids who has a busy job, and was also trying to write this book and was, you know, also have a church calling. I would sometimes ask Mitt Romney for advice. I would say like, what it how do you strike the right balance here? Because I feel some days, like, I'm getting pulled in five different directions. And they're all good directions. It's not like, you know, there any one of them is bad. They're all unnecessary things. And it was funny, he sometimes was reluctant to give me advice like that. Because I think only because he says, like, I don't know that I ever got it perfect, right? I really don't. But one thing that I learned from him just from, you know, when he wouldn't give me advice, I would then say, Okay, I'm just gonna be a reporter and ask you how you dealt with it. And then I'll take my own lessons. And so, you know, I remember asking him, how he struck the right balance when he was starting out in his career, because he, he got out of Harvard, where he had done business and law school and became a management consultant and kind of became a rising star. And a lot of people in his position could have very quickly, kind of abandoned their family gotten divorced, a lot of people did, right. And he realized early on that the way that he was wired, meant that he was always going to want to work nonstop. He's an incredibly hard worker, he has also an incredibly high tolerance for pain. And so he, he is part of his success. And life has been that he's kind of a grinder, like, he wouldn't be able to help put in more hours than anybody else. He'll study harder than anybody else. And at Harvard Law School, right? Yeah, he'll will amass more billable hours than anybody else had been. But what he realized was that if he didn't keep himself in check, he would end up completely abdicating his his parental responsibilities, his spousal responsibilities, his responsibilities to the church. And so he drew some bright red lines that, that he just told himself, he wouldn't cross. And so when he got offered a job, I think it was Bain. He had been at Boston Consulting Group, he was then offered a job at Bain. He said, Okay, I'm gonna do this. But I need only on a couple conditions, right? I will not work Sundays. I need at least and with very rare exceptions, I'm not going to be reachable on the weekends, because that's family time. I also need one night a week that I set aside for family home evening, so I need to be here. Now he put in a lot of hours, he traveled a lot. I talked to his sons. And they said, you know, he didn't always make it home for family. I mean, it was actually funny because MIT told me that story. And then I asked, I think it was mad about it. And he was like, I'd give him like a be on family home evening. Like, let's not go crazy here. But he tried, right? But he did. But what he realized was he needed to draw these lines. Because if he didn't, he wasn't just going to naturally be a really present father and have time for his calling. Right. And I thought that was like, kind of illustrative, right? Yeah, as you know, so for my own life, I have kind of taken that same lesson. There are just some things that I can't compromise on. I always think about this as an aside, but Clayton Christensen used to say that it's actually much easier to follow the commandments 100% of the time than 99% of the time, because Ben loves that quote, it will say it's so true because you end up spending your entire life trying to figure out what the 1% of MIDI of the time is, like, what is the one mitigating circumstance where it is okay, right. And and if you Just decide I'm not, I'm not gonna play that game, then it it's just makes your life simpler, you know? And so I, you know, I again, I don't know that Mitt Romney has all the answers he would say like, when it comes to balancing work and life and church like, it's actually harder today than it ever was for for him. Because the way technology is, we're all reachable all the time for work. And we all have these phones in our pockets that connect us to, you know, work. And so he says, I don't even know how to give advice to my sons. But But I think the principle is there.
Morgan Jones Pearson 40:36
For sure, at one point in the book, as Mitt is considering whether or not to run for president the second time, he writes in an email saying that if he decides to go for it again, it will be with far less concern about what people think or even whether my message is popular or not. He says reputation is a word I've used, but that isn't it really reputation as what others think what concerns me, is what I think about how true I've been to myself, integrity is a better word. In your experience, how hard you've covered politics for a good little while now, McCain and not just Mitt Romney, how hard is it to hold on to integrity in a political space, and what what also is its value and its worth?
McKay Coppins 41:27
I think it's incredibly hard. And it's actually one of the reasons that this book, and this story appealed to me so much. I write a lot of I profile a lot of powerful people as part of my job, right? I spend time with interviewing presidential candidates and CEOs and senators, and is somebody who's read a lot of my work once told me that I seem to be gravitate towards stories about people who find themselves in where their conscience and their ambition, our intention, and I hadn't really thought of it that way. But once I started to look back on on my work, I found that that is true. Those are the subjects that I tend to be most interested in. And I think it's because there is something so human and about, about, you know, having to wrestle with wanting to, you know, get to a certain point in your career or to accomplish big things. But realizing that to do them, you have to kind of sell yourself out a little bit. And I think all of us in various aspects of our lives, feel that tension. And so to answer your question, I think that integrity is increasingly not just in short supply in politics, but almost undervalued, it's devalued, like people who go around, thinking a lot about talking about their own integrity, or even just saying, I want to be better, and I care about my integrity, they often kind of get laughed at in Washington, especially right, like, like, that's seen as a sign of self righteousness and smarmy Ness, and you know, somebody who's kind of like, too earnest and quaint. And I think also, they're often kind of suspected of being disingenuous. And I get that, because oftentimes people are disingenuous when they talk about these things. But I think it's really unfortunate that we have gotten to a place in our kind of political culture, that we look at people who, who really are grappling with their their conscience and their ideals and their principles and their integrity as kind of saps. You know, like I just so I think what made Mitt Romney such a compelling subject to me, and somebody who I wanted to spend two years with, is that it's increasingly rare to find a very prominent political figure who is openly grappling with his conscience, like he, you know, and he's not perfect. A lot of the stories in this book are about times when he didn't totally live up to his principles, or he let his ambition get the better of him. But the fact that he owns up to it is incredibly unusual, I can say with some experience, and the fact that it was hard for him that he does have kind of like, a highly functioning and frankly, inconvenient conscience, constantly, kind of like telling him like, Oh, are you sure you want to do that is what makes his occasional indulgences of rationalization and his self interest, understandable and sympathetic, and ultimately, I think I hope revelatory because one of the things that I hoped people would take away from this book is that is to think about their own lives, think about the leaders that they elect, and hold, you know, hold them to a higher standard and hold ourselves to a higher standard. And I think that, in that way this this story is much bigger than then Mitt Romney.
Morgan Jones Pearson 45:21
You do a beautiful job, McKay. And maybe as a writer, having attempted to write some lengthier biographical articles, it's tough to know when to insert yourself in. And I thought you did such a good job of flowing that first person narrative in a way that's very subtle. But at one point toward the end, you right of crashing a Romney family reunion and looking around things going and you write this question, can these be the fruits of a poorly lived life and members of the Church likely will pick up on kind of where that idea is stemming from of by their fruits, you shall know them? I wondered, how would you answer that question? Can these be the fruits of a poorly lived life?
McKay Coppins 46:10
Yeah, I think the what most struck me about being up with his family, in Lake Winnipesaukee in New Hampshire, is that like, he, these are people who genuinely love him, he has put in the work over the course of his life, to cultivate meaningful relationships with all five of his son's, certainly his wife, who he adores, but also, you know, the dozens and dozens of grandchildren that he has, I mean, like, he has these really meaningful relationships that I think are the fruits of a man who has made deliberate choices like we all have to, to prioritize his family to prioritize his relationships, and to prioritize his faith. And I think that, you know, it's certainly possible to become wealthy and have a great lake house while living, not less than great life, right. We all know, people who are very rich and are not people that we wouldn't necessarily want to emulate the family relationships, though, I think when you get to that age, and that level of power and wealth, it's very common to to reach that point in your your career, and realize, look around and realize that you're kind of alone. I right there in that same passage about, there's this kind of interesting body of research that shows that the more powerful men get over the course of their lives, something happens to their brain chemistry, where, you know, some people will compare it even to like, it looks like somebody who's endured a traumatic head injury parts of their brain just start stop working. The parts that are that register empathy, that can mimic other people's experiences, they stop working, as people become more powerful, they often become more reckless and impulsive, more self centered. But one of the things that can mitigate against those things, is having what researchers called tow holders and their life, basically, people in their lives, who can keep them grounded and remind them of what matters most. And Mitt Romney really has built a life where he is surrounded by tow holders, right? All of these these kids and grandkids and his wife, they, they have they care about him. And they they you know, look up to him. They're proud of him, but they also will keep him in check. And I you know, to answer your question, I don't think that you can get to the point in your life where you have all these loved ones around you, and have the where you have all these meaningful relationships if you've lived a bad life, and I think that that was one of the takeaways I had from that experience.
Morgan Jones Pearson 49:08
Well, and kind of as a follow up to that McKay, I think that research is fascinating. You write a lot toward the end of the book about legacy and why legacy matters to some and not to others. But I wondered why does legacy matter to you? You write about why it matters to MIT, why does it matter to you and what do you hope your legacy will be?
McKay Coppins 49:33
Great question. I mean, I think if anything, the the older I've gotten and I'm not that old yet but the more I've progressed through life the more that I realized that like I don't I don't think I'm gonna have any major you know, huge legacy as a writer you know, and like, I don't think that I'm going to be you know, I the sell the kind of like ambitious parts me would like to believe that I'll write some book that people will be reading in 100 years, but like, that's probably not going to happen. And even if it does, it's so much less important than the legacy of my kids, right. And my, my, my family. I've had a lot of, kind of there, it almost feels like I'm being kind of presented with these tests. But I've had a lot of moments over the last couple of years where I've been given an opportunity to, you know, go do something that would seem prestigious and cool in my career, but at the expense of an important family moment. And they're often so kind of the choice is so like, comically Stark, that I feel like I'm in a seminary video or something, you know,
Morgan Jones Pearson 50:47
What to do in this situation?
McKay Coppins 50:50
Exactly. And, and I'm one of the reasons I'm grateful that I was able to write this book is that like, it was a, it was an opportunity to constantly be reminded of what is what do I actually care about most, Mitt Romney as he's enters this kind of twilight of his life, he's not really thinking that much about his past presidential campaigns, or the deals he made at Bain or the, you know, quarterly profit statements. He's thinking about his kids, his grandkids, and he is thinking a lot about the country that he loves. But he's, he's, he's really thinking about, like, what's going to be in my obituary? What are my kids, my grandkids, going to remember about me, you know, and I want my kids to remember that I was here with them, that I loved their mom that I, you know, served faithfully in the church that I was that I tried to be honest, and I tried to be loving and patient and supportive of them. And that most of all, I loved them and was and listened to them. And, like, I think that, you know, seeing somebody, think about his legacy, like Mitt Romney is a good reminder for all of us that life is shorter than we think. And the things that matter a lot, you know, day to day, probably aren't going to matter at the end of our lives. And so it's those relationships, it's our relationships with God, those are the things that are we're gonna care about the most.
Morgan Jones Pearson 52:27
I completely agree. And it's interesting, that topic of legacy seems to be coming up. I just did an interview the other day about Kate Holbrook. And she also wrote about legacy. And so I've been thinking about that. And so reading it in the book caused me to think again, about what I would want my legacy to be. And it's very, very much on the same page with you, I doubt I'll do anything too crazy, but outside of outside of the home, but I think inside the home was what matters most. My last question for you McKay is what does it mean to you to be all in the gospel of Jesus Christ?
McKay Coppins 53:13
So, I was obviously anticipating this question I was thinking about how to answer. And my wife who listens to this podcast every week was like, McKay, you got to have a good answer for that.
Morgan Jones Pearson 53:25
No pressure.
McKay Coppins 53:27
Nobody, you know, I was thinking about this. I think that what it means to me is to make my discipleship, my membership of Jesus Christ's Church, central to my identity. And not to try to bracket it or put it aside or say, this is one part of me, but all these other parts are more important, right? It goes back to the conversation we had about, you know, juggling all these different things in our lives. I'll just tell this story quickly, when I had the opportunity a couple of years ago to interview President Nelson for an article that I wrote for The Atlantic magazine. And I remember going into that interview, feeling slightly, slightly torn, because this was the you know, I I knew that I had to be you know, real reporter in this in this interview, and I had talked to church communications and let them know, I'm gonna have to ask about XYZ you know, the, the tough questions like if I'm, if I'm gonna go in there, and have this interview, and they said, of course, that's fine. And President Nelson was ready for them. And so I went in as a journalist, but then there was also a part of me that was going in as a member of the church who wanted to, you know, see the the profit, and especially this was early in the pandemic, when the world felt like it was kind of spinning out of control. I there was some part of me that wanted, like, spiritual catharsis from the experience. And I remember feeling like, Man, how can I do both of these things? Like, I feel like there's one part of me that needs to be the serious reporter and the other part that needs to be the just faithful disciple. And I got into the room and President Nelson came in. And the first thing he said was, can we start with a prayer? And I said, Sure. And he gave this beautiful prayer where he prayed for each of my kids by name and invited the Spirit into the room, and then ended the prayer and said, Okay, what questions do you have for me? And, and I realized in that moment that I could do both right like that. I didn't have to pretend like I wasn't a member, you know, I wasn't a Latter-day Saint to be a good reporter. And I didn't have to be a bad reporter to be a good Latter-day Saint like I could do all of it. And I wasn't going to set aside my faith. And in fact, President Nelson actually made this point at one point later in the interview, he said, you know, you're all all these things are your identity, your your membership, your parenthood, your, your job, but your your belief in God, and your attempts to follow Jesus Christ are right there in tangled with everything. And I think that's what it is, to me what that means to be all in. I don't want to try to compartmentalize my spiritual life from everything else. I think it's all part of who I am. And I try my hardest to live that way every day.
Morgan Jones Pearson 56:37
Well, I want to compliment you because I think that you do a very good job of that. And I admire you for that. And I just I appreciate your time so much, Mackay this has been such a treat for a little bit of a journalism nerd like myself, who I've read all of your stuff. So I am I'm excited for other people to get to hear from you. And I just appreciate your time more than you know.
McKay Coppins 57:04
That's very nice of you to say. Thank you, Morgan. And thanks for having me on.
Morgan Jones Pearson 57:11
Many thanks to McKay Coppins for joining us on this week's episode. McKay's book Romney: A Reckoning is available in stores now. We are grateful as always to Derrick Campbell of Mix at 6 Studios for his help with this episode, and we're grateful to you for listening. We'll look forward to being with you again next week.